Two Weapon Question

[TheElfLord]

Quck question I hope you guys can answer...

Given that ambidexterity has been removed for 3.5, if a person is holding a weapon in each hand and only attacks with one weapon, do they get a penalty if on alternate rounds they alternate which weapon they attack with?

[Raistlin1040]

If I get what you're asking then yes. Unless you have a light weapon in the offhand and have greater two weapon fighting. Even then the light weapon takes a -2 (I think)

[Dhavaer]

I don't think so. Everyone is assumed to be ambidextrous.

[Quietus]

I'm with Dhavaer on this one.

[greenknight]

I have to disagree with Dhavaer. Looking at the Two Weapon Fighting table, it lists a primary and off hand, and they do have different penalties until the Two Weapon Fighting feat is introduced. In effect, TWF teaches ambidexterity, but characters don't have it until then and get a -4 penalty to attacks with the off hand.

[SpiderBrigade]

...they have different penalties when attacking with both. Notice that you don't get penalties if you shield bash, unless you do it in the same round you make another, primary, attack. Even though the shield is technically your "off" hand.

[LotharBot]

The PHB glossary (p311) reads

off hand: A character's weaker or less dexterous hand (usually the left). An attack made with the off hand incurs a -4 penalty on the attack roll. In addition, only one-half of a character's Strength bonus may be added to damage dealt with a weapon held in the off hand.

So a character without TWF would take the -4 penalty to attack rolls with that weapon even if they only used it during a round. IMO, a character with TWF would not take any penalties for attacking only with their off hand, since TWF reduces the penalty for the off hand by enough to make it equal the on hand. But that's really the DM's call -- the rules don't state it explicitly.

[Matthew]

This question has been asked before and was long debated; the current Wizards stance appears to be that you are free to designate your Off Hand from round to round, but not Attack to Attack. It's in the Rules of the Game Two Weapon Fighting Article series.

[greenknight]

...they have different penalties when attacking with both. Notice that you don't get penalties if you shield bash, unless you do it in the same round you make another, primary, attack. Even though the shield is technically your "off" hand.

Are you sure that's a rule? Because I checked the shield bash entry and it doesn't say anything about not having off-hand penalties. The FAQ does mention that you can use a shield in your primary hand (rather than just the off hand), but even it doesn't say attacking with a shield in your off hand doesn't suffer the normal off hand penalties.

[Matthew]

Designating your Off Hand is in the Articles. I have sent the queestion a couple of times to Wizards, but they never answer by way of the Sage.

[Raum]

The PHB glossary (p311) reads

off hand: A character's weaker or less dexterous hand (usually the left). An attack made with the off hand incurs a -4 penalty on the attack roll. In addition, only one-half of a character's Strength bonus may be added to damage dealt with a weapon held in the off hand.
If that's what the glossary states, the glossary is incorrect when applied to those not fighting with two weapons. Off hand attacks (when TWF) only take a -4 penalty if the wielder has the Two Weapon Fighting feat. The normal penalty to the off hand is -10.

That, and the fact that "off hand" is only used in relation to two weapon fighting, leads me to suspect that you only have an off hand (in game terms) when fighting with two weapons at once.

[Matthew]

Off Hand, Off-Hand Weapon: When attacking with two weapons, the character must designate one of his hands as his off hand; the weapon held in that hand is treated as his off-hand weapon. The game rules don’t really care about whether you’re right-handed or left-handed, and it’s even OK to change your off hand designation from one round to the next.
Attacks with the off hand take a -4 penalty (javascript:autoGlossaryWindow('Glossary_dnd_penal ty')) on the attack roll (javascript:autoGlossaryWindow('Glossary_dnd_attac kroll')) (see page 311 in the Player's Handbook) and only half the character’s Strength bonus (rounded down) applies to damage from the attack. Fighting with a weapon in each hand brings even bigger penalties.
When a character fights with a weapon in each hand, the weapon held in the off hand is called the off-hand weapon.


Rules of the Game - Two Handed Fighting (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060829a)

[greenknight]

If that's what the glossary states, the glossary is incorrect when applied to those not fighting with two weapons. Off hand attacks (when TWF) only take a -4 penalty if the wielder has the Two Weapon Fighting feat. The normal penalty to the off hand is -10.

No, the glossary is correct. Look at the penalty for TWF using your primary hand (-6) and compare it to the penalty for the off hand (-10). Then go another line down and if the off-hand weapon is light, the penalties change to -4, -8 (still that -4 difference). That difference is only removed once TWF enters the picture.

EDIT: I looked through the Rules of the Game article, and I think Skip got it wrong. If you look in the PHB, it states (Ch 6, Looks, Personality, and Background) that characters can be right or left handed. And IMO, that would determine a character's primary and off hand, until the TWF feat is taken.

[Raum]

No, the glossary is correct. Look at the penalty for TWF using your primary hand (-6) and compare it to the penalty for the off hand (-10). Then go another line down and if the off-hand weapon is light, the penalties change to -4, -8 (still that -4 difference). That difference is only removed once TWF enters the picture.Err, look back at the quote posted by LotharBot. It states "-4 penalty on the attack roll" not "four worse than your primary hand".

An off hand attack only takes a -4 penalty to it's attack roll when the character has the Two Weapon Fighting feat and is not using a light weapon.

This table (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#twoWeaponFighting) shows all the TWF permutations.

[greenknight]

Err, look back at the quote posted by LotharBot. It states -4 penalty on the attack roll not four worse than your primary hand.

That's exactly the same thing! Here's the penalties broken down another way:
Attacking with two weapons: -6
Attacking with the off-hand: -4
Using a light weapon in the off hand: +2
Having the TWF feats: +2 (and no off hand attack penalty)

So yes, when you add all the modifiers together, it is possible to get a -10 modifier when attacking with the off hand. That's not the off hand penalty though, it's a combination of two different penalties. Otherwise, with your logic, you could say the off hand penalty could be -10, -8, -4 or -2, depending on which row of the table you look at.

[Thomas]

Off-hand is a TWF term, and only applies when actively using TWF (i.e. attacking with two weapons). There's no game balance reason to apply penalties when not attacking with two weapons.

So no, OP, you dont' get any sort of penalty if you're only attacking with one of the weapons, no matter which hand it's in.


If we consider the left the off-hand, how do you deal with unarmed TWF, which doesn't need to involve any hands? You may be attacking with the sword in your right hand and kicking with your right (better) leg, or headbutting as the unarmed strike. Or you might be kicking with both feet (TWFing with unarmed strike and unarmed strike), or striking with the elbow and head-butting...

There's no "off hand" - there's just "off-hand attacks," which means "attacks from a secondary weapon made in addition to the primary weapon attacks."

The glossary is almost surely a hold-over from 3.0 times. Can someone find a bit in the PHB, not in the glossary, that explains the "off hand" in the same way? Or in the SRD, which contains all the relevant rules...?

[Shhalahr Windrider]

There's no game balance reason to apply penalties when not attacking with two weapons.
No. But there is a matter of verisimilitude.

Some decisions are made on a basis other than game balance.


Or in the SRD, which contains all the relevant rules...?
But doesn't contain the glossary...

(as near as I can tell)

[Matthew]

True indeed. Still, it would be perfectly reasonable to assume a Character with 3.5 Two Weapon Fighting possesses the benefits of the 3.0 Ambidexterity and Two Weapon Fighting Feats (since every other feature of these two, including prerequisite Dexterity 15, have been rolled into 3.5 Two Weapon Fighting). The only exception I might be tempted to make is that such Characters would still suffer a -4 Penalty to Skill Checks made with their 'Off Hand'.

All in all, this is clearly something they screwed up in the transition from 3.0 to 3.5 and have not bothered to fully address (unless we are missing some long sought errata).

[Fax Celestis]

Also remember that you only take the -2 penalty if you take the extra attacks. Read TWF closely.

[Matthew]

Indeed, or intend to use them [i.e. you must take the -2 Penalty at the start of your round, you cannot declare a Standard Attack Action, take it and then switch to Full Round Two Weapon Attack Action].