New DM, long time assistance on various matters

[MrUberGr]

__Ok, I hope this will be the final thread I start in some time. I don't like spamming... :smallfrown: I'm starting up a new campaign, and it's my first time DMing. Please try to keep off-topic limited, cause it will be very hard to me if I have to skim through many posts of discussion.

The story is 100% mine, maps etc, but it's still work in progress. So I might need some storytelling help at some point. For now, I need help in more basic needs.

__The party is level 5 and is made up by 4 players: a rogue, a barbarian, a fighter and ranger with an owlbear. The fighter and the ranger are highly optimized. I'm not really sure about the two other characters. The xp of the group is 900 (4x200 + 100) because of the owlbear.
__I set up a Monster Manual lvl 5 encounter (mm p135 the one with the 12 goblin cutters + a gray wolf) @ ~1100xp. The minions where level 1, and all the rest where lvl 3. The encounter proved to be a waste of time, since they cut through it like a hot knife through butter. The players hit every single time, they hardly got damage and then it was over. How am I supposed to make an encounter if the suggested ones are crappy?

__Secondly I find the fey beast tamer rather game changing.The most important reason is that it allows the ranger to not work with the group, which is the point of playing in a party. He just goes on an enemy away from the rest, gets +2 to hit/dmg from owlbear. It's something you get for free, takes up a space (cover etc) and even if monsters kill it, comes back with a MINOR action.
__Any ideas on how to get him to work with the group and any fixes for the Fey Beast? The fact that it can come back virtually for fun, is annoying. It got "killed" yesterday and the player didn't even blink. Noone would with the conditions it has. I don't want to nerf it very much, and I know that he's been wanting to play this for long time so I don't want to ban it. I just want him not to think of it as a glowing light that follows him around, cause that's how he played it. He moved it around with his move action, then used his standard action and minor action to attack by himself. As I said, he is already very optimised and the +2 is just op at this moment.

__Lastly, the ranger is possibly the best striker in 4e. He is finely optimized and deals possibly more damage than the rogue and the barbarian together, and I see them being a bit turned off because even if they like their chars, when they deal almost half the damage the ranger does, then what's the point? They're not there to be meatshields and wait for the ranger to get the job done.

[Yakk]

The owlbear is not worth XP. Note that the owlbear cannot act without the ranger spending actions -- so it doesn't get to attack unless the ranger burns an OA or a Standard Action. (I believe it can move while you move)

Second, even-level encounters with reasonably optimized characters are going to be easy. That is ok! You can throw level +2, or level +4, or even level +6 encounters at the party.

Third, 4e works best if individual monsters are -2 to +3 levels from the party. Those minions at 4 levels under the party are going to be trivial to hit and they will rarely hit any player with any kind of defences.

Note that the Ranger has to spend a minor action, **and** a healing surge, to bring it back. And it comes back with half max HP.

At level 5, a double-+1-waraxe dwarf ranger (18-19 str) with expertise, dwarf weapon training and deadly hunter and iron armbands of power deals 1d12+5 damage per hit (x2), plus 1d8 once per round (from HQ) and gets to reroll a 1 on damage once. That is pretty solid. Accuracy is going to be +10 vs AC (+12 with CA), which is mediocre (expertise assumed). With 2 hits that is 27.5 damage.

A level 5 human rogue with 20 dex using a +2 rapier with backstabber and light blade expertise and nimble blade and iron armbands deals is +15 vs AC or Reflex for 3d8+10, for 23.5 damage, but much higher accuracy than the Ranger.

A level 5 20+ Str Barbarian using a +1 Vanguard Gouge, Iron Armbands, Howling Strike, Spear Expertise and Weapon Focus charges at 26 damage (2d6B1+1d6+1d8+10) at +10 vs AC (+12 with CA), which is spitting distance of the Ranger.

[MrUberGr]

What does +2 level mean? Count them as 7 when they're 5 in order to determine the experience available?

Our previous DM not wanting to give us very easy encounters usually ended up giving us too hard encounters. And eventually, combining higher level encouters with really closed fighting spaces when he had 2 ranged PCs, we died. I don't want to do that.

What about making the loss of the fey beast a bit more costly, so he has to consider it a bit more? ATM he's got 6 healing surges, but we don't usually do more that 2 encounters before an extended rest.

For example if it dies twice in two days it leaves for 1d4 days to rest.

[Yakk]

Solution: Do more than 2 encounters between extended rests?

One way to make this fit the narrative structure of D&D is state that extended rest requires shelter (like civilization). In the wilderness, a long period of low stress can also generate the effects of an extended rest. Ie, extended rests must be restful.

This makes rests a bit more rare.

A party level -1 to +0 encounter is an easy encounter. So yes, your encounters should have XP budgets as if the party was +1 to +4 levels above the party often. This is covered in the DMG, as is the advice that (despite the range of levels for encounters) to use monsters that are close in level to the party.

The point of the XP budgets is having a dial you can use to make encounters easier/tougher. You are finding encounters to easy. Turn the dial up a bit.

At baseline math (without crazy optimization) a level +4 encounter is roughly an "even" encounter, as monsters are about half as powerful as a PC and a level+4 encounter is enough budget for 2 even-level monsters per PC. The problem with even encounters is that the players have a good chance of being killed (a truly even encounter is 50:50 which side wins!), so you don't want many of them (as D&D presumes players win most encounters).

Players can spend daily powers to tilt the balance of "hard" encounters towards victory. By having 1 (and rarely 2) such "hard" encounters per day, the players will learn to save up their dailies for the hard fights, and use encounter/at-wills for easy fights.

The other fun thing to do is a two-phase encounter, where the initial encounter is a "level-1" encounter (so easy, and tempting to just splat everything), and 2 rounds later a "level+0" or "level+1" encounter shows up.

---

Do your other PCs have themes? While the fey beast tamer is an above average theme, not having themes at all could be hurting them.

[Epinephrine]

What does +2 level mean? Count them as 7 when they're 5 in order to determine the experience available?

Yes; use a level 3 encounter for level 1 PCs. My baseline for my party is L+2, since they're pretty strong. I don't tend to go above L+4 or L+5, as the differences really start getting noticaeab;e, but I never use an even level or L-1 on them, it would be a complete waste.

One problem we had with extended rests and their availability was that "on the road" encounters were pointless. The party would pretty much "all-in" on them, since they are pretty sure there will only be one or two such encounters, so everyone burns a daily or two. We instituted a "you need 4 encounters to take an extended rest" rule, with the exception that serious down time (like a fortnight) is an auto-extended rest. That makes them conserve their powers a bit on the road, and when wandering.

[Sol]

given that the bonuses the owlbear grants are party-wide, the owlbear has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the ranger feeling/being more powerful than the rogue and barbarian.

If the rogue and barbarian are upset by the disparity in optimization, encourage them to optimize more.

Wide optimization variance is almost never fun for anyone, but, more to the point, being terrible is almost never fun for anyone either, and now that they've seen what's possible, asking the ranger player to be worse intentionally is not going to end well.

Obviously, you have to pick different words when asking your rogue and barbarian to not be bad, but I'm confident you can nudge them in the right direction.

Anecdote: there's a level 21 pbp game going on currently with a ranger that has a +11 static damage modifier. The sorcerer in the same party has a +67 static damage modifier. If you have to pick one, pick the awesome one, and help the others catch up.

[MrUberGr]

@Sol: Dunno exactly what's out there to be found, but I know <<that exemplars of the hunt>> contains some awesome builds. I have no experience with rogues or barbarians to say. We'll see how that goes. My MAIN concern is that he was never actually around the rest of the party and do teamwork. Maybe if a couple of lurkers jumped him at some point he'd learn to keep close.



One way to make this fit the narrative structure of D&D is state that extended rest requires shelter (like civilization). In the wilderness, a long period of low stress can also generate the effects of an extended rest. Ie, extended rests must be restful.
This makes rests a bit more rare.
----
Do your other PCs have themes? While the fey beast tamer is an above average theme, not having themes at all could be hurting them.

Hmm to be honest we always considered extended rests to be kind of "auto". Lay down your bedroll, light a fire, sleep. Fresh as a daisy!

The tank has the Guardian theme from DM 399. I doubt the other two have one.


One problem we had with extended rests and their availability was that "on the road" encounters were pointless. The party would pretty much "all-in" on them, since they are pretty sure there will only be one or two such encounters, so everyone burns a daily or two. We instituted a "you need 4 encounters to take an extended rest" rule, with the exception that serious down time (like a fortnight) is an auto-extended rest. That makes them conserve their powers a bit on the road, and when wandering.

Could you elaborate? What do you mean "on the road"? "Random encounters"?

Our current setting is that a city has been overrun by goblins, and the neighbouring city is sending help. The area between them includes some farms and stuff, and goblin bands aren't really rare. What I've figured in 4e, or at least the way we were playing it, unless you are fighting all day, you just nova nova nova.

[Yakk]

They are in an area overrun by goblins? Getting a single extended rest should be something they have to work for.

4e should be "use just enough nova so that you can have reserves left over for the curveball the DM is going to throw at you". If you use a daily power on an even-level encounter past level 2, you should know better. Did you all level up from level 1?

Builds that isolate foes and take them out are part of teamwork, even if they aren't adjacent to their allies. And yes, Lurkers should sometimes jump players "at the back" or far from other PCs.

Is the Rogue or Barbarian at all religious? Sohai is great for a melee striker, as an example.

[GPuzzle]

Exemplars of the Hunt is outdated as heck. The Big Bang: A Guide to Novas thread is a lot better (Evan's Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion - a Bard MC Druid with summon shenanigans - is hilarious).

[MrUberGr]

The halfing rogue just disembarked from a ship where he had been stowed away and is in it for the bounty on the goblins' heads. He hadn't figured the rest of his backstory because he was lacking time.
The is goliath barbarian is like a viking, only weaker. Came from the north with his tribe and is asking for some land for his people to cultivate to survive.

Well, I can understand how to interrupt the extended rest at the area they are now but I don't really understand for what reason they would not rest while sleeping on their bedrolls in the woods. (Given that I'm not planning on interrupting their sleep every time with an encounter)

We never started from level one, cause we had just stopped playing 3.5 in which we had got 1 -> 13 and didn't want to start from 0. Both times, in 4e we started at level 5.

[Tegu8788]

Here's a fun trick. Give them a skill challenge, where if they fail, they proceed, but they loose a healing surge. If the owlbear being brought back for a surge is too weak, costing surges is smart. Lurkers spread damage around, costing more surges. Don't let your party rest until they really need to. Don't just let them lay down in the woods, make them earn it. Search around, secure the campsight, maybe deal with a party of roving goblins. Do they deal with the threat now and risk more goblins coming when the scouting party doesn't report back and risk a fight with few resources left, or do they allow the goblins to keep searching and hope that they don't come across the party.

You also have one defender and three strikers. If one of them is willing to swap for a leader, it will mean that not only will it mean they no longer have to try and keep up with the Ranger's DPR, but they can also help keep the party up. And yes, by all means, get everyone a Theme. An extra encounter power is strong at this level, and the bonus feature is nice. Optimization variance can really screw with fun, so see if you can suggest they find a better way to work together. Maybe the Ranger has some tips for them.

[Kimera757]

__Ok, I hope this will be the final thread I start in some time. I don't like spamming... :smallfrown: I'm starting up a new campaign, and it's my first time DMing. Please try to keep off-topic limited, cause it will be very hard to me if I have to skim through many posts of discussion.

The story is 100% mine, maps etc, but it's still work in progress. So I might need some storytelling help at some point. For now, I need help in more basic needs.

__The party is level 5 and is made up by 4 players: a rogue, a barbarian, a fighter and ranger with an owlbear. The fighter and the ranger are highly optimized. I'm not really sure about the two other characters. The xp of the group is 900 (4x200 + 100) because of the owlbear.
__I set up a Monster Manual lvl 5 encounter (mm p135 the one with the 12 goblin cutters + a gray wolf) @ ~1100xp. The minions where level 1, and all the rest where lvl 3. The encounter proved to be a waste of time, since they cut through it like a hot knife through butter. The players hit every single time, they hardly got damage and then it was over. How am I supposed to make an encounter if the suggested ones are crappy?

You made an error. Your PCs are 5th-level, so they should be facing opponents of about 5th-level. First-level opponents can't hit them (and the PCs almost always hit them), while a small number of higher-level opponents is also not idea (PCs have a hard time hitting them).

Even if the encounter in the MM1 says that's a 5th-level encounter, that just means a really difficult encounter for 1st-level PCs, not a decent encounter for 5th-level PCs.

You could have leveled up those goblin minions and the wolf, to 5th-level, or selected 5th-level creatures.

Another error, that you probably wouldn't realize because you're new to 4e, but the Monster Manual I is out of date. The Monster Vault is far better.



__Secondly I find the fey beast tamer rather game changing.The most important reason is that it allows the ranger to not work with the group, which is the point of playing in a party. He just goes on an enemy away from the rest, gets +2 to hit/dmg from owlbear. It's something you get for free, takes up a space (cover etc) and even if monsters kill it, comes back with a MINOR action.

I agree. 4e is probably the best-balanced version of D&D out there but it is not perfect balance. Especially since you're a new DM, you should limit what game elements players can use.


__Any ideas on how to get him to work with the group and any fixes for the Fey Beast? The fact that it can come back virtually for fun, is annoying. It got "killed" yesterday and the player didn't even blink. Noone would with the conditions it has. I don't want to nerf it very much, and I know that he's been wanting to play this for long time so I don't want to ban it. I just want him not to think of it as a glowing light that follows him around, cause that's how he played it. He moved it around with his move action, then used his standard action and minor action to attack by himself. As I said, he is already very optimised and the +2 is just op at this moment.

I dunno, never used the theme. Maybe you should have the player trade that for another theme instead. The ranger himself is pretty fragile though. Also, if he's a melee ranger he probably has poor Perception (so stealth ambushes) and a poor Will defense (hit him with daze effects).


__Lastly, the ranger is possibly the best striker in 4e. He is finely optimized and deals possibly more damage than the rogue and the barbarian together, and I see them being a bit turned off because even if they like their chars, when they deal almost half the damage the ranger does, then what's the point? They're not there to be meatshields and wait for the ranger to get the job done.

Rogues don't make good meatshields :) Rangers are probably the best strikers in the game but I can hardly believe he's dealing more damage than a rogue and barbarian. Rogues deal tremendous damage, provided they know how to get combat advantage.


Maybe if a couple of lurkers jumped him at some point he'd learn to keep close.

Air elementals are good for this.


Hmm to be honest we always considered extended rests to be kind of "auto". Lay down your bedroll, light a fire, sleep. Fresh as a daisy!

Sure... if nothing interrupts you, if the weather isn't horrible, if the area isn't loud... One time my PCs horribly failed their Perception checks while trying to take an extended rest and cannibal halflings actually created traps near them. (Even more hilariously, the PCs didn't notice the traps, but force moved some of the halflings into the pit!)


The tank has the Guardian theme from DM 399. I doubt the other two have one.

Either all should have themes, or none. But feybeast tamer is really powerful.


Could you elaborate? What do you mean "on the road"? "Random encounters"?

Create several "pacing encounters". These should involve at-level monsters. When PCs go from point A to point B, they should have a chance of running into a patrol of goblins, starving peasants turned bandits, or just monsters (possibly fleeing the goblins, or moving to the area to get hired as mercenaries by the goblins). The latter is handy for when PCs gain levels. Level 5 goblins aren't that common to begin with, but they might hire ogres as mercenaries...


Our current setting is that a city has been overrun by goblins, and the neighbouring city is sending help. The area between them includes some farms and stuff, and goblin bands aren't really rare. What I've figured in 4e, or at least the way we were playing it, unless you are fighting all day, you just nova nova nova.

If goblin bands aren't rare, the PCs might find themselves fighting all day, every day. If they kill enough goblins, hunter teams of "classed" goblins should start chasing them. These would be level +4 encounters (so a party of eight goblins, or four elite goblins, all level 5, is pretty reasonable).

I'm assuming you're comfortable creating your own NPCs.

[tcrudisi]

If the Ranger is out-damaging both the Barbarian and the Rogue at level 5, then something weird is going on. Everyone here can agree that the Ranger class is the top damage-dealer in the game. However, it starts off slowly. It really hits its stride in late heroic and begins turning it up after that. At mid-heroic? The Rogue and Barbarian are very, very good damage dealers and should both be approximately equal or even slightly beating out the Ranger.

So something weird is going on. Even if the Rogue and Barbarian completely fudged it up, they should still be competitive at this level. I'm not sure how the Ranger is doing the same damage as the Rogue and Barbarian combined. Heck, I'm an optimizer, and there's no way I could make a level 5 Ranger that would pull that feat off.

Some things you might be messing up:
1. Twin Strike does NOT add Str or Dex to damage.
2. Is the Ranger massively over-equipped compared to the Rogue and Barbarian?
3. Is everyone doing the math right? I suppose if the Rogue and Barbarian are screwing up their math and cheating themselves, something could be happening. Or the Ranger might be adding things he's not supposed to.

Also, please note that the Rogue's Sneak Attack class feature has been updated so that it is 1/turn, NOT 1/round. This means that any time the Rogue makes an attack when it is not his turn and he has combat advantage, he gets to add his Sneak Attack damage. The Ranger's Hunters Quarry is only 1/round. (So a Twin Strike that hits twice will only add HQ once.)

[Yakk]

I disagree. A reasonable op ranger could double the damage of a low op barb or rogue by level 5, especially if you discount accuracy.

Lets start with a 16 str barb with a +1 weapon with a crap enchantment, and no other item that adds to damage, and an encounter power that does 2[W], who uses a greatsword and howling strike. And no damage boosting feats.

Hit damage is 13 per hit, or 15 on the 2[w] encounter rounds.

A rogue who uses a dagger, has 16 dex, and not brutal. Uses an at will with no damage rider, and a 2[w] encounter. +1 dagger that otherwise does no extra. Feats taken with cool stuff, not boring damage. Same eith items.

3+2.5+7=12.5 at will damage, 15 encounter.

On the other hand we have a twin strike + minor ranger with 18 str who uses waraxes. Deadly hunter, weapon focus, twf, iron armbands, and +1 weapons, and owlbear.

13.5 per hit on twin strike, plus 4.5 1/round.
Offhand does another 17.5.

Easily doubling the damage output of either low-op striker. Heck, 3.5x on some rounds!

[MrUberGr]

Wow, thanks for all that advice Kimera!!
As for NPCs yep! I've been a player myself long time and I've created double the chars I've played. Why?

Yesterday was our second session, and everything went better than the first. They had to fight some dwarves that I named goblins (2 dwarf hammeres, 2 dwarf bolters and 1 human berserker MM1 p97 and p163). The tank went down while two mobs where alive, and then they finished the encounter. The rogue and the barbarian did just fine. Plenty of damage from each. The previous encounter didn't allow them to play. The Barbarian was bogged down and couldn't get help, and the rogue spent half the encounter running around and being blind. If they pick a theme everything will be ok. Also, I talked to the ranger and he sent the owlbear to the other players while he was hitting the dwarf bolters. Both they and I liked the encounter.

The second one was mainly for the lulz. I would've given them two Gremlin Skulkers (MM3 p107), but then my eye fell on the Gremlin Prankster - lvl 17 minion. Gave them one and as soon as they killed it, another. Both had a -3 to defenses and -5 on attack rolls. Not that it really mattered, cause one was killed with 32 vs AC and the other got a critical. :smallbiggrin:

Being scared cause they saw a large force of goblins they decided not to rest for the night. The day started a bit after dawn, they were riding all day and had two fights. When should they roll an endurance check, and what penalty should be imposed? Even if it's not at the 24h mark then a bit later, cause they won't get any real sleep, and there are 2-3 encounters more to come.
---

We're having an argument about money, and items. The guides say that at level 5 you should have X gold. Would that be at the start or at the end of level 5? I all gave them 3k to start with, which is about 300g more than the suggested at level 4, thinking that when they get to 6 they will have they gold of lvl 5.

[GPuzzle]

The Rogue can be kept if he tries to be a Controller/Striker, but the Barbarian... I seriously hope he's a Thaneborn with 16 Charisma, because you guys need a leader, and fast.

[Epinephrine]

The Rogue can be kept if he tries to be a Controller/Striker, but the Barbarian... I seriously hope he's a Thaneborn with 16 Charisma, because you guys need a leader, and fast.

Perhaps the barbarian could be convinced to play a warlord? They're both Strength primary, neither is particularly heavily armoured, both can use big weapons if they want and work well in melee.

Being able to throw a couple of heals as minor actions and getting your rogue an off turn attack sometimes would help a bunch. Unless the barbarian was really building on rages he's unlikely to notice the difference - it's just a bit of fluff, instead of being a viking that rages, he's a viking who shouts encouragement to his allies and works well in a team.

[Tegu8788]

I second that idea. A Warlord can still be raging, it's just his allies at get the boost.

[MrUberGr]

I got a pixie bard ready to jump in the action in case things go south, but I wouldn't like to play an NPC as well... The now-ranger tried a warlord in the past and got rather bored. He what he mainly did is he did a small heal and ordered someone else to attack.

In general the group isn't so much about the story and the rp. Meaning that combat, leveling up and damage comes first. They wanted to get a level after 4 encounters cause it would be "to slow" otherwise. :smallbiggrin:

What about loot and treasure guys?

[Kimera757]

I got a pixie bard ready to jump in the action in case things go south, but I wouldn't like to play an NPC as well... The now-ranger tried a warlord in the past and got rather bored. He what he mainly did is he did a small heal and ordered someone else to attack.

Seems like they played a "lazy warlord", a surprisingly popular build. I say supposedly because it tends to be boring like that.


What about loot and treasure guys?

Look to treasure parcels on page 162 of the DMG1. If you're leveling up PCs really fast, increase the number of treasure parcels per encounter.

At 5th-level, PCs should have 1 6th-level item, 1 5th, 1 4th, and enough money to afford a 4th (which could get spent on potions, ritual items, and the like). Note that parcels will start giving them higher-level items. If treasure tracking becomes a pain in the rear, use inherent bonuses (you can find those rules in Dark Sun).

[Inevitability]

If treasure tracking becomes a pain in the rear, use inherent bonuses (you can find those rules in Dark Sun).

Don't go all the way to a campaign setting, DMG 2 has those rules too, along with lots of other useful info for DM's.

[Epinephrine]

The now-ranger tried a warlord in the past and got rather bored. He what he mainly did is he did a small heal and ordered someone else to attack.

While that can be very effective, not everyone enjoys it; it's quite possible to make a nasty warlord that actually hits things with his attacks.

[MrUberGr]

While that can be very effective, not everyone enjoys it; it's quite possible to make a nasty warlord that actually hits things with his attacks.

Is there any chance you got a build? I found a couple of guides


Seems like they played a "lazy warlord", a surprisingly popular build. I say supposedly because it tends to be boring like that.

Look to treasure parcels on page 162 of the DMG1. If you're leveling up PCs really fast, increase the number of treasure parcels per encounter.

At 5th-level, PCs should have 1 6th-level item, 1 5th, 1 4th, and enough money to afford a 4th (which could get spent on potions, ritual items, and the like). Note that parcels will start giving them higher-level items. If treasure tracking becomes a pain in the rear, use inherent bonuses (you can find those rules in Dark Sun).

I'm not asking what they should get. The DMG is pretty straightforward on that. What I'm asking is when should they be getting the parcels? For example, they think they should be getting the parcels of the next level. For example this build (http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/2883061) suggests that at level 5 you should have a cumulative of 4.5k Should they have this amount at the start of their level or at the end?

[Inevitability]

The fact that 1st-level parcels exist should help you think of that.

A party gains the treasure of level n over the course of level n. By the end, they should have gathered it.

[Epinephrine]

Is there any chance you got a build? I found a couple of guides

Depends on what you want to do, race, weapon, etc. Assuming the barbarian wants to replace his guy with something similar (light armour, Goliath, big weapon?) there are many things he could try. With lots of guys using melee attacks (Ranger and Fighter both will have decent MBAs I assume, Rogue will have a chance to deal SA with his) he might consider going with a Bravura warlord, so that whenever his allies spend an action point they can also take a free melee basic. Here's a really easy one with a big hammer, looking to charge into position, using some off-turn actions to deliver some pain. Went with Scale armour, since with a big weapon and no Int or Dex bonus the light armour thing wouldn't have worked well.
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Gregg, level 5
Goliath, Warlord (Marshal)
Build: Bravura Warlord
Warlord Option: Combat Leader (+2 initiative for everyone; if he is willing to go shield/axe it might be better to take Battlefront Leader for a big shield)
Commanding Presence Option: Bravura Presence (Allies can make an MBA as a free action if they hit when the spend an action point, otherwise they grant CA)
Frostfell (Primal Power) (+2 to Athletics) (figured it was "northern")
Theme: Guardian

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 21, CON 16, DEX 8, INT 10, WIS 13, CHA 10

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 18, CON 13, DEX 8, INT 10, WIS 13, CHA 10


AC: 22 Fort: 19 Ref: 13 Will: 16
HP: 48 Surges: 10 Surge Value: 12

TRAINED SKILLS
Athletics +16, Endurance +10, Heal +8, History +7, Intimidate +7

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +1, Arcana +2, Bluff +2, Diplomacy +2, Dungeoneering +3, Insight +5, Nature +5, Perception +5, Religion +2, Stealth +1, Streetwise +2, Thievery +1

POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Guardian Attack: Guardian's Counter (step in the way of an attack that would have hit an ally, counter with an attack)
Goliath Racial Power: Stone's Endurance
Warlord Feature: Inspiring Word (heal 2x per encounter)
Warlord Attack 1: Brash Assault (Hit and invite the opponent to swing at you; if they do they have CA, but an ally gets to swing at them with CA)
Warlord Attack 1: Viper's Strike
Warlord Attack 1: Vengeance is Mine (Counter against an enemy attacking you by hitting him back, with an ally helping)
Warlord Attack 1: Concentrated Attack (You and an ally both hit the target)
Warlord Attack 1: Hammer and Anvil (You and an ally both hit the target)
Warlord Utility 2: Knight's Move (use your move action to let an ally move (especially if you are in position already))
Warlord Attack 5: Staggering Spin

FEATS
Two-Handed Weapon Expertise
Level 2: Armor Proficiency: Scale
Level 4: Battle Awareness

ITEMS
Avalanche Hammer Maul +1 x1 (Charge attacks using an MBA are +1[W])
Imposter's Scale Armor +2 x1
Bracers of Mighty Striking (heroic tier) x1 (only a bonus to MBAs, but you make a bunch of those, and it's all you can afford right now)
Amulet of Psychic Interference +1 x1
====== End ======

He's set up to go for the Goliath Greatweapon Prowess and Ogremight feats, and can follow the Ogremight fighter PP if you want him to still be delivering charge attacks and such later. He can pair up nicely with the fighter or rogue (anyone, really), hitting with Brash Strike dares the enemy to swing at you, but you hand out an attack to an ally if they take you up on it (multiple attacks if it's a marked target and the fighter can respond). At the same time, you have ways to play defender without interfering with the fighter's marks, the Battle Awareness will let you retaliate against an enemy for following the fighter's mark, for example. Maybe next time he ignores it, only to get smacked by the fighter and you via Vengeance is Mine.

[Laserlight]

Seems like they played a "lazy warlord", a surprisingly popular build. I say supposedly because it tends to be boring like that.

If the lazylord's player is the sort who actually likes assessing the situation and saying "Paladin, fall back! Rogue, around the left and get the caster!"--and if the other players listen to him--then it can be a lot of fun. If the player is the sort who doesn't look up from his phone and just occasionally says "I grant the ranger another attack", not so much.

[tcrudisi]

If the lazylord's player is the sort who actually likes assessing the situation and saying "Paladin, fall back! Rogue, around the left and get the caster!"--and if the other players listen to him--then it can be a lot of fun. If the player is the sort who doesn't look up from his phone and just occasionally says "I grant the ranger another attack", not so much.

Or, the option that I encourage lazylords to take:

Get the stats for the MBA for anyone you might grant a MBA. Get their attack bonus and damage roll. Then, when you grant them an attack, you actually roll it yourself. It sounds so weird and yet it works.

[Tegu8788]

Or you could be like me, and be a terrible roller. When I played a lazylord, I was happy to let everyone else take an extra turn. We happened to have a lot of solid MBAs at the time, so it was a blast. I was also a hybrid druid, so I was a bear shouting commands at my allies, which was also fun.

[Kimera757]

Or you could be like me, and be a terrible roller. When I played a lazylord, I was happy to let everyone else take an extra turn. We happened to have a lot of solid MBAs at the time, so it was a blast. I was also a hybrid druid, so I was a bear shouting commands at my allies, which was also fun.

For my previous campaign, our cleric was the player who had the worst rolls. (His first PC was a warlock who just couldn't hit stuff. Or maybe it was his second PC in the same campaign.)

The player who "might" play a warlord doesn't seem a fan of the lazy warlord though. Both tactical and inspiring (regular) warlords are quite cool. They ensure you do stuff yourself as well as buff or enable your allies.

[GPuzzle]

Bravura Warlords are just too damn fun, to be honest. These guys like to charge a lot too. I recommend it to the Barbarian.

[MrUberGr]

I proposed it to him. The problem is that the ranger thought he'd give it a go. *facepalm* He'll try it in an encouter and then decide what he wants to play.



Being scared cause they saw a large force of goblins they decided not to rest for the night. The day started a bit after dawn, they were riding all day and had two fights. When should they roll an endurance check, and what penalty should be imposed? Even if it's not at the 24h mark then a bit later, cause they won't get any real sleep, and there are 2-3 encounters more to come.

Any ideas on this? Next session is in a few hours. I couldn't find something on penalties when you fail your endurance check.

[tcrudisi]

Typically "lose a surge".

Alternatively, anything you feel is appropriate. Perhaps they are so exhausted that they are automatically surprised in their next combat. Or whatever.

[MrUberGr]

So no "-1 to hit because you are very tired and swing properly" or -1 defenses for the same reason.

[Yakk]

-1 penalties are rarely worth tracking. You'll either spend a bunch of time on them and have them come up rarely anyhow, or forget to apply them.

[Epinephrine]

-1 penalties are rarely worth tracking. You'll either spend a bunch of time on them and have them come up rarely anyhow, or forget to apply them.

Agreed, hard to track too many modifiers. The idea of having them be surprised more easily is good, but pretty harsh.
Does seem like a good opportunity for an endurance check, though - make those people who trained it feel better. If they fail a check maybe they are less alert (-X to perception, -Y to initiative) and that it will get worse if they don't get some rest. Worse initiative is a pretty big penalty, and lower perception can make it much easier to get surprised.

[Yakk]

If you want to use official-looking mechanics, you could create a disease track for exhasted.

When you miss 50% or more of the targets of an attack power, are hit by an attack, travel at more than half pace for an hour, or exert yourself in a similar manner, you have to roll (against endurnace) to see if the "disease" gets worse. The DC grows until you fail and drop a step, then resets.

To make a recovery roll you need to spend a healing surge or sleep. The amount of sleep to make a recovery roll varies with how exhausted you are: an extended rest to get rid of the "lowest" stage (healing surge may not be used to recover that one), while more "extreme" stages can be rolled against with less time resting.

Naturally said extended rest does not let you regain healing surges (!).

Every day you go without taking an extended rest, the "baseline" exhaustion state (above which you cannot make a recovery roll without taking an extended rest) goes up by 1 step. Spitball how many days someone can go without sleep before being crippled in the real world, and have that many steps to the "disease".

This may be too complex, but the idea is that if you are going to track something, make it meaty, not a -1 penalty.

[MrUberGr]

Yep, I'll have too look into this. It's a good idea. I ended up giving them a -1 on attack rolls and NADs and we all forgot to apply them, so something more meaningfull next time.

[tcrudisi]

Yep, I'll have too look into this. It's a good idea. I ended up giving them a -1 on attack rolls and NADs and we all forgot to apply them, so something more meaningfull next time.

KISS.

Losing a surge is the easiest thing to do. It's also very common with Endurance checks.

I also liked the idea of "enemies automatically get a surprise round against the PCs who failed the Endurance check." It's a bit more punitive than simply losing a surge; it both exemplifies how tired they are that they can't respond quickly to the threat being posed before them and it makes the combat tougher. Both of those are great for penalties. If a PC passed the Endurance check, then they also get to act in the surprise round.

Simply handing out a -1 to hit and defenses isn't really going to do much. The problem with penalties is that they can quickly add up and go from "meh" to "we die". So if you start stacking it up and suddenly they are at -5, then they are probably going to be TPK'ed if it was anything resembling a decent encounter to begin with. If you give too small of a penalty, the PC's won't care. If you give too big of one, they will be grossly outmatched. Or, everyone will forget to include it. (Though its easier to do this on YOUR end by adding +1 to the monsters attack rolls and defenses. Simply cross out their actual attack bonus and defenses and write in the new one. Or, if you are using a computer, edit the image.)

I like the idea of the disease track, but it also feels "too complicated". Too many fiddly bits for my taste. Not only would you have to make one up, but then you have to make people roll more Endurance/Heal checks and it becomes more fiddly than giving out "penalties".

[MrUberGr]

Where can I find more diseases that the ones in DMG 1? The players will visit a small, isolated island where people beyond curing, or who cannot afford a "Cure Disease" are dumped. They will get there at around level 7. I know about the ones in the MM but those are more like encounter diseases, rather than actual ones.

[UndertakerSheep]

Where can I find more diseases that the ones in DMG 1? The players will visit a small, isolated island where people beyond curing, or who cannot afford a "Cure Disease" are dumped. They will get there at around level 7. I know about the ones in the MM but those are more like encounter diseases, rather than actual ones.

According to the Compendium, the sources that have the most diseases are:

Demonomicon
Book of Vile Darkness
Monster Manuals
Monster Vaults
Dungeon Magazines


There's a bunch of Dungeon Magazines that have a few diseases. For a complete list, refer to the compendium (http://www.wizards.com/dndinsider/compendium/database.aspx).

[MrUberGr]

Are all the sources noted in the compendium for 4e? I believe I had found something refering to a dragon magazine 2xx.

[Tegu8788]

Everything is in the compendium, with very few exceptions. Now, there are a number of things that have multiple sources, and it lists them as "Multiple Sources," which is not helpful there is a bit of a learning curve to finding stuff, so keep looking.

[Kimera757]

Where can I find more diseases that the ones in DMG 1? The players will visit a small, isolated island where people beyond curing, or who cannot afford a "Cure Disease" are dumped. They will get there at around level 7. I know about the ones in the MM but those are more like encounter diseases, rather than actual ones.

Sadly, you won't find many of these. This isn't surprising. Facing diptheria was a real (and common) challenge "back in those days", but it's not really heroic. IMO, diseases don't need to enter the game unless it's some sort of massive plague or exotic disease.

[MrUberGr]

I don't want people dying from diseases. I just want to give them something to worry about for a bit, and also to make it worthwhile having endurance trained.

I might use blinding sickness with a bit lowered DCs

[Kimera757]

I don't want people dying from diseases. I just want to give them something to worry about for a bit, and also to make it worthwhile having endurance trained.

I might use blinding sickness with a bit lowered DCs

They're visiting an exotic place, so an exotic disease. You can frankly make something up. I'm fond of diseases that steal healing surges and inflict defense penalties.

[MrUberGr]

Solo-ifying a monster.

I got a pc that has a grudge against a specifc "hand of bane"(MM p 139). At some point I want to give him the option to 1v1 it. Any suggestions on how to do it? I've thought about turning his at-will powers into encounter powers,keep the passive, and keep the save roll as a utility immediate reaction. Give him an at will or two, and lower his stats. He's the rogue, who, after a few changes to the party is now a fey beast tamer.

[Inevitability]

Don't use the MM. It's bad.

Just pick up the Monster Vault, search for a monster that is an appropriate challenge, refluff as you like. Maybe swap one or two abilities with another monster of its level.

[Angel Bob]

Alternatively, to update monsters from the MM to current standards, use Blog of Holding's MM3 on a business card (http://blogofholding.com/?p=512). I've used it many times to both update old monsters and to create new ones, and I find it works well. :smallwink:

[MrUberGr]

I made dis:


Noxxle, Hand of Bane
Initiative: +7 Perception +5, lowlight vision
Level 6 Soldier
HP: 88 AC: 24 Fort: 22 Ref: 20 Will: 21
Speed: 5
Action point: 1

At-Will:
Flail: +10vs AC; 1d10+6 dmg
Handaxe: ranged:5/10 +10vs AC; 1d6+6 dmg

Encounter:
Flail of Dread: +12vs AC; 1d10+6. Secondary attack: +10vs Willl; -2 to all defenses until the end of Noxxle's next turn
Flail of Tyranny: +12vs AC; 2d10+6 Effect: (Immobilized save ends) OR (Slowed until the end of next turn + 5 ongoing save ends) [whaddaya think]

Passive
Bane's Blessing: when first bloodied; +2 to damage rolls
Hobgoblin Resilience: Roll a saving throw when bla bla.

Equipment: Full Plate, Flail, Heavy Shield, 3 Handaxes

Now, this is meant to be killed 1v1 by a lvl 6 rogue with a young owlbear. The rogue is nicely optimized.

Thinking of adding a secondary attack to his at-will: [+10vs Reflex, dazed until the end of next turn], but I'm afraid it would be too hardcore :P

I want it to be the equivalent of a L+3 cause I'm gonna give the rest of the group an encounter of L+3 as well. Gonna run two encounters at once. Not looking forward to it. :smalltongue:

-----------------------

On a different matter:
<<Wizard casts "Featherfall" on adventurers. Adventurers climb into catapults, and are flung over a city's walls. Adventurers drop to the ground softly. >>
Does it work this way?

[Inevitability]

On a different matter:
<<Wizard casts "Featherfall" on adventurers. Adventurers climb into catapults, and are flung over a city's walls. Adventurers drop to the ground softly. >>
Does it work this way?

No. Feather Fall is an immediate interrupt power, so you can't cast it beforehand. Even if you are talking about 3.5, it doesn't work.

[MrUberGr]

Well, I guess said wizard was powerful and was able to research a new spell. :smalltongue:

What about the monster?

[Kimera757]

[QUOTE=MrUberGr;17576400]I made dis:


Noxxle, Hand of Bane
Initiative: +7 Perception +5, lowlight vision
Level 6 Soldier
HP: 88 AC: 24 Fort: 22 Ref: 20 Will: 21
Speed: 5
Action point: 1

At-Will:
Flail: +10vs AC; 1d10+6 dmg
Handaxe: ranged:5/10 +10vs AC; 1d6+6 dmg

Encounter:
Flail of Dread: +12vs AC; 1d10+6. Secondary attack: +10vs Willl; -2 to all defenses until the end of Noxxle's next turn
Flail of Tyranny: +12vs AC; 2d10+6 Effect: (Immobilized save ends) OR (Slowed until the end of next turn + 5 ongoing save ends) [whaddaya think]

Passive
Bane's Blessing: when first bloodied; +2 to damage rolls
Hobgoblin Resilience: Roll a saving throw when bla bla.

Equipment: Full Plate, Flail, Heavy Shield, 3 Handaxes

A single PC is equivalent to an elite monster. (A team of one elite NPC per PC results in a level +4 encounter, or theoretical 50% win/loss encounter.)

This seems like an elite due to having an AP, but it's not really. It only attacks once per round. An elite needs two attacks per round.

Also it's using MM1 math. The AC is too high (should be 22). The attack bonus should be +11 vs AC or +9 vs NAD. At least two NADs should be reduced by 2 points as well. As it is, the rogue will have a very hard time hitting (at least, a hard time after the owlbear is killed).


Now, this is meant to be killed 1v1 by a lvl 6 rogue with a young owlbear. The rogue is nicely optimized.

Normally a rogue is pretty weak in a 1v1 scenario, but this guy has a flanking partner, so it should be alright.


Thinking of adding a secondary attack to his at-will: [+10vs Reflex, dazed until the end of next turn], but I'm afraid it would be too hardcore :P

Sounds like a decent encounter ability.


I want it to be the equivalent of a L+3 cause I'm gonna give the rest of the group an encounter of L+3 as well. Gonna run two encounters at once. Not looking forward to it. :smalltongue:

-----------------------

I don't know what you mean. Equivalent of level +3? Isn't the rogue 6th-level? I'd use an elite of the rogue's level, not something much higher level.


On a different matter:
<<Wizard casts "Featherfall" on adventurers. Adventurers climb into catapults, and are flung over a city's walls. Adventurers drop to the ground softly. >>
Does it work this way?

No. Need a new spell. Or a ritual. Would be a pretty cool tactic.

[GPuzzle]

Can't he use Feather Fall while falling after being catapulted?

[Kimera757]

Can't he use Feather Fall while falling after being catapulted?

That works too.

[MrUberGr]

I think the rogue's +on attack rolls with CA is something like +14. Not sure though cause he changed his build an we haven't played combat since. I should lower the monster's to-hits. Forgot to do it when leveling him down. For the rest, I calculated it through the Monster business card, posted by angel bob.

I based the monster off the "hobgoblin hand of bane" mm1 p140 which is a lvl8 elite soldier. Gave it some stuff, like the AP, while didn't give him a +2 to ST. I turned his stun in an immobilize, and made it an encounter power. It would be too powerfull 1v1.

As for the daze, I'm thinking of adding it as a secondary to his at will. Not a differentt attack alltogether.

The wizard can't cast it then because he won't be going in with the group.

[MrUberGr]

So, the rogue hits with +16 on attack rolls when he has CA, which is almost always due to his owlbear. His damage is normally around 25-26 with encounter powers. This means he can kill the hobgoblin in three to four rounds. His AC 21 and his Will 17. So, he hits on an 8 and the hobgoblin on a 9.Depending on the rogue's HP I think it's pretty alright.

What do you think about adding the secondary on the at will, and which of the two should the effect be on the second encounter power?

[MrUberGr]

Treasure Rewards

So, I have this major problem. I don't know how or what to reward. On the previos level I gave stuff out as the dmg says. The problem is that the party was unbalanced, because someone had a level 9 item when someone else had 1000g. We ended up calculating the monetary value and splitting it up by four. I don't like this RP-wise, but I also don't want players to feel mistreated. When I was rolling to see who would get the last magic item reward, I could clearly see that the one who got nothing was totally bummed out.

The second question, is how much treasure I should reward. Should I just give out what the DMG says? The players pointed out yesterday, quite correctly I must say, that, if I do that, they'd never be able to buy wondrous items, like a floating lantern etc.

Finally, If I would reward them, a house in a city, for example, it wouldn't really be gamebreaking, would it? They just help reclaim a city where there had been an "inside job". I think, that besides money, they could get something else as well.

[Inevitability]

A party of 5 characters gains 20 items over the course of 5 levels. (The period in which a single 'enhancement bonus' is used)

Every member needs:

-An attack-boosting item
-An AC-boosting item
-A NAD-boosting item

5x3=15, and 20-15=5, so you could reasonably give a level-appropriate fluff item at every level without making the players worse in the long run.

It is indeed not fun to lose on magic items, but as shown above, in the long run everyone will get the same stuff. Or you exchange some of the monetary reward for items of the same value.

A house in a city is surely not gamebreaking. PC's are away most of the time anyways.

[masteraleph]

Another way of fixing the item distribution- the item distribution in the DMG, for a 5 person party, is one item each of level +1 to +4 (4 total). In gold value, that works out to 5 items of level +1 to +2 (depending on where you are in a tier). I think it's reasonable to give that out instead, so no one will be well ahead of the others. It also opens up the use of more items- for characters using 2 implements or weapons, literally all of their allotted items are taken up by increasing those at each tier, according to the DMG's system. Another alternative is Living Forgotten Realm's system- when you level up (or thereabouts), you can choose to gain an Uncommon item of your (new) level, or a common item up to your (new) level +2. Rare items are one per tier and at the DM's discretion, and players can have no more than one permanent uncommon item per their level on them (i.e. a level 10 adventurer could have up to 10 uncommon items).

[MrUberGr]

The party consists of four members. Now, when they finished the intro of the campaign, got to level 7, and I gave them 4k each, for a total of 600gp (16k instead of 15.4) more than what the DMG suggests. Gonna give them a house, and a small title, reckognizable only in the kingdom they're in. Fluff mostly. I could give them a small wondrous item as well, I guess.

[Yakk]

Two options. Either plan ahead, or random with bias.

Plannimg ahead is simple. Break things down into 5ish level windows (3-8, 8-13, etc). In each of these, for each player, find an appropriate armor, neck and weapon/implement.

Now add 1 'misc' magic item for each player from roughly the same level range.

Finally create some cash treasures. Start with the value of a magic item from level 1-5 each. Make it quirky, and even try for plot relevance. Shave some off for minor cash, or even split a parcel up.

Now arrange everything in rough level order (sort the treasure with items 2-3 levels higher). Seed this treasure in your adventures, very roughly in level order -- 1 cash and (4/5 party size) items per level (~8 encounters per level).

How they choose to split up this treasure is completely up to them. You may design or pick an item for bob, but they do **not** have to give it to bob. Do not tell them you are doing this.

Oh, and include at least one rare item per character per tier. Because those items are just fun.

[MrUberGr]

I'm gonna try and make a plan based on this and post it here.

Can skills have a negative modifier?

[Inevitability]

Yes. 1st level fighter with 8 CHA. Your modifier to diplomacy is most likely -1.

[ScrivenerofDoom]

(snip) (MM p 139). (snip)


Don't use the MM. It's bad.

Just pick up the Monster Vault, search for a monster that is an appropriate challenge, refluff as you like. Maybe swap one or two abilities with another monster of its level.


Alternatively, to update monsters from the MM to current standards, use Blog of Holding's MM3 on a business card (http://blogofholding.com/?p=512). I've used it many times to both update old monsters and to create new ones, and I find it works well. :smallwink:

@OP: You really need to get this message: DO NOT USE THE MM1!

I think a lot of your problems will be solved if you use Monster Manual III, Monster Vault, and Monster Vault: Threats of the Nentir Vale.

The first Monster Manual was really, really, really badly designed. The maths was wrong and even the elites and solos were built differently to the advice provided in the DMG. So, in short, DO NOT USE THE MM1!

[Echobeats]

A house in a city is surely not gamebreaking. PC's are away most of the time anyways.

It could be gamebreaking if they can sell it though. I would make it available for their use but not actually belong to them. Or (if they do own it and decide to sell) deduct a lot for estate agency and legal costs. You could have fun designing an extremely Byzantine ceremony for transferring ownership of land/buildings, which must be attended in person by all co-owners and various witnesses having different qualifications. Naturally the lawyers charge a fortune for this :smallamused:.

(For inspiration, you could look into Roman law and 18th century Scots law on transferring ownership of land.)


Gonna give them a house, and a small title, reckognizable only in the kingdom they're in. Fluff mostly. I could give them a small wondrous item as well, I guess.

I love the idea of giving them a title. Especially one that will totally fail to impress anyone outside a small and politically insignificant area :smallbiggrin:.

[MrUberGr]

I'm just gonna go with "you can't sell it". My last week has been a hectic paper gathering for a jobI'm starting on Monday and I had/will have very little time.

So today's subject: Something Fishy

The players will be getting on a ship, and going across some deep waters to a remote island. I need a level 10-11 encouter that fits the setting. Also, I'd like it to be something "exotic", not pirates or bandits.

[Tegu8788]

Surrealistik once made a hilarious sharktopus, I'll see if I can find it.

Here (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1qtXfqaz4QPEDIDUGIIHX1gZkswG5qGN0bMQWYb__3Dk/edit) it is. You'd have to level it up a bit, but that should be interesting. Maybe throw a couple of them in for extra fun.

[MrUberGr]

Hah!

RELEASE THE KRAKEN!

...if only I had some idea on how to run such a combat...I mean obviously the PCs have to be on the ship, and the kraken will be in the sea. The party has almost 0 ranged capabilities, and two out of four wear heavy armor, so falling in would be terrible.

The kraken has a reach 3 so why would it ever get close to the ship so the players could get a hit? Would it be possible to attack the tentacles?

Edit, got ninja'd. We'll be playing in a cuople of hours and I'm a bit too tired to put effort atm. I could use it on the way back thoug or in a cavern they will have to go through to get to their objective.

[MrUberGr]

Does this seem right? Blue being the kraken, yellow the players. They'd be to easily pulled out IMO.

http://i58.tinypic.com/206xzdi.jpg

[Dimers]

The kraken has a reach 3 so why would it ever get close to the ship so the players could get a hit? Would it be possible to attack the tentacles?

A character can spend a standard action to ready an action to use as an immediate. It's entirely reasonable and realistic to allow them to use readied actions to hit the kraken while it attacks. Not RAW, because there's no tentacle object that moves into an area they can affect, but totally appropriate nonetheless.

[MrUberGr]

The encounter went great. 2 People unconscious, 1 at 5 hp and one at 20.

The problem that occured is that the warlord|paladin got desperately bored of his char. He wants to play a totally different character, some human thief. I dunno what to do, should I let him just change? The campaign is really story driven, so... and he's already played an important role since he's handled most of the chatty chats.

I think he should have some sort of penalties for being virtually a nobody, some item loss etc etc.

[Tegu8788]

Have the Warlord|Paladin retire, and turned into an NPC. Retired PCs don't get looted like dead ones do. Let the player build his new PC, with default rules for his level. Extra penalties aren't fun. I can understand the frustration of character driven plots having amain character leaving, but there are ways around it.

You have a group that PC was close with? Have the hybrid join it. Got a plot hook you want to introduce? Guess what the thief is gonna be interested in. Normally I'd recommend just swapping the sheets and maintaining the same character, but a Paladin|Warlord and a Thief are pretty incompatible in terms of abilities.

Granted, any gold and items the old PC has are going with him. The new PC has no reputation with the group, or existing NPCs, which will have to be re-earned. What I'm saying is, don't make it harder for the new character than it would normally be. If this Player had to drop out, would you do the same thing to a new Player?

[MrUberGr]

Basically, the Warlord would have died in combat if it wasn't for some NPC sailors going out of their way to save his ass. We could just say he died when he was dragged into the sea by the waves, while unconscious. Also, he tends to change chars a lot, it's the second char and second warlord (meaning a ranger, warlord #1, warlord #2). So if I start making all his ex-chars into NPCs, we'll end up with more of them than citizens in a city.

The way I'm thinking of introducing the thief is the following: The party is now going to the BBEG minions' lair. The minions had purchased the thief as a guinea pig to test some of their magics and gimmicks. The party will find him in the lair's dungeon and save him. As for items, he'll be able to retrieve his +2 weapon, +2 armor, and some other misc magic item from inside the lair. I'll just give him some gold rapidly later. Maybe a pickpocket or something.

[MrUberGr]

I got a question about the Windclaw Owlbear in the monster vault page 237. It has a Beak snap pkwer that it can use against a grabbed creature. The problem is that it doesn't have any powers with which to grab someone. Do I have to make a regular str vs ref attack?

Also, I got a question about Ready. So lets say we have the following scenario. Two adventurers enter a prison. The guards unfortunately are t0at the end of the corridor. They have 14-15 square distance. Whoever moves is in disadvantage cause he will allow the other to charge. Why not just stay where they are, ready an attack and start a staring game? :smalltongue:

P.S. I'm not looking for "because the guards will sound the alarm" type of answer.

[masteraleph]

Beak Snap was errataed to read "one creature stunned by the owlbear."

As for your other question- if it's a 15 square distance, there's a good chance that's 3 moves total (including a charge). Better move would be to move and then ready an action (either to charge when enemy is in range or to attack if enemy charges). It's worth noting, though, that in theory the enemy doesn't know about the readied action. Personally, instead of either the players or DM telling the other the condition for the readied action, I'd have them write it down, to reduce the possibility of metagaming.

[Dimers]

Not RAW, but easy and fair:

If both parties want/intend to advance and strike in melee, and they have weapons with equal reach, I'd recommend having them roll an extra initiative check. The winner gets to use the maneuver they want first, with the loser choosing exactly which squares they start in. Then if the loser is still able to act they can use an attack power themselves.

[MrUberGr]

Writing it down seems a good idea. IMO when you ready an action, it can be noticed. Readying a hit with a sword would iclude raising the sword in the air or bringing it to your side. A non-intelligent creature would not be able to notice it. An intelligent creature, specially ones that are trained for combat, like said guards, could notice it. The same goes for stances, at least that's what I've ruled in the game.

I didn't quite get what you mean dimmers. Play an extra round before they start?

[Epinephrine]

It's worth noting, though, that in theory the enemy doesn't know about the readied action. Personally, instead of either the players or DM telling the other the condition for the readied action, I'd have them write it down, to reduce the possibility of metagaming.

I don't know that you typically *don't* know what an enemy is doing. 4e works on a principle of having most information being open; if you enter a zone, you know what it does. If someone hits you with a power, you know what the effects are - there are no surprises that way.

In my games I tend to describe enemies who have readied as waiting for an opening, or stopping to take aim, or something along those lines. The players might ask "is he readying" and I'll say that yes, it looks like he's waiting for a chance to act, or for an opening. It's an opinion (I think it's in line with the philosophy) that either group should have that much information. Additionally, for anyone trained in Insight, I allow an insight check against passive bluff to get an idea of the type of action and trigger (pick one, if you make it by 10+ you get both). The triggers are general ideas like "when (the target) is closer," or "when (target) uses a ranged or area attack," as I think that stating that it's when someone comes "within 4 squares" is a bit too much information, it would allow them to deliberately not trigger it and skirt around the edge of the declared area. Action is generally the type of attack (charge, breath weapon, hurl his javelin, a mighty chop with his axe, etc.) Hasn't been a big issue, it's a minor reward for being trained in insight. (I've also used insight in lieu of perception to deal with surprise rounds, when the issue isn't spotting the enemy, but recognizing that someone is in fact an enemy, like an attack in a crowded public square - everyone can see the attackers (mixed in with the crowd), it's recognizing intent that gives you the chance to react in time).

I like the idea of writing down the trigger; instead of asking the player to tell me I may have them write it down from now on.

[Laserlight]

@OP: You really need to get this message: DO NOT USE THE MM1!

I think a lot of your problems will be solved if you use Monster Manual III, Monster Vault, and Monster Vault: Threats of the Nentir Vale.

The first Monster Manual was really, really, really badly designed. The maths was wrong and even the elites and solos were built differently to the advice provided in the DMG. So, in short, DO NOT USE THE MM1!

Could we get one sticky thread "For New DMs" with this, plus "MM3 On a Business Card" and "How To Inherent Bonus" (including "where to find it on DDI char builder"), and whatever else a newbie DM needs to know?

[Tegu8788]

That would be handy.

[Inevitability]

Agreeing on the 'new DM' thread, but why not make it a 'new player' thread too? Just add some information for new players, such as:

-Start with an 18-20 in your primary stat.
-Don't try to be good at everything.
-Understand what your combat role means.

I'm sure others can come up with anything else a new player/DM should know.

[GPuzzle]

Volunteering on the "What every new 4e Player should know" thingamagig.

[Tegu8788]

I've got it started, feel free to give me more material. Check my sig.

[Dimers]

I didn't quite get what you mean dimers. Play an extra round before they start?

If two creatures want to close on each other and be the first to strike, and the game mechanics are going to give the advantage to whoever goes SECOND, then the game mechanics need to be set aside for a moment. The creature with quicker reaction time should usually get in the first swing. A good way to measure reaction time (modified by chance and circumstance, of course) is with an initiative check. So instead of the usual mechanics of movement and readied actions, you:

have them roll another pseudo-initiative check,
let the creature with a better pseudo-initiative roll swing first,
give the second creature the choice of where in-between their starting locations the clash occurs,
let the second creature take their shot, and
have the faster creature act juuuuust before the second creature in future rounds.

The bit about choosing the location is just intended as a consolation prize, though it could also represent the second creature paying more attention to maneuvering than to getting in that first hit.

Looks more complicated than it is. "You're both trying to hit each other at the same time as you approach? Who's quicker? Okay, you go first."

[MrUberGr]

Yep, much clearer now, and it really makes sense. Thanks!

[Dimers]

*squee/blush* :smallredface: I like when I do something right!

[MrUberGr]

Identifying Magic Items?

So, it has happened a couple of times that the party has picked up a couple of items, that where magic, and they almost totally forgot about it.

For example I've given them a "horn of summons" (AV). They were in a position where it would have come really handy, but didn't use it cause they didn't know what it does.

So how does this work in 4e? How can you identify a magic item? And how do you know that a magic item is actually magic?

[Yakk]

If you possess a magic item over a rest (short?) you are told what it does.

You can detect magic items with an arcana check.

[MrUberGr]

:smallconfused: Nope.... I'm deffinately not doing that. It makes no sense whatsoever, that a party that has nothing to do with magic can find out what it does. They are two rogues, a ranger and a barbarian! Isn't there some ritual of some sort?

[Inevitability]

No there isn't a ritual. Look, every game has stuff in it that doesn't make sense. Magic items are a major part of 4e, and if you are denying players the right to know what they do, you are making the game a lot harder for both yourself and them.

EDIT: And two rogues, a ranger and a barbarian? How does that party survive?

[Echobeats]

And two rogues, a ranger and a barbarian? How does that party survive?

Probably by killing everything before it can kill them. I imagine the rogues flank with each other a lot, the ranger kites and the barbarian charges in?

[GPuzzle]

Rogues debuff them to the heavens and get constant CA, Barbarian acts as a pseudo-defender via power choice, Ranger is your normal Ranger.

Just my bets.

[Tegu8788]

At the very least, you have to give them the very basics. What slot it is, and the plus's it gives. If you want to hide properties and powers that's up to you.

[Yakk]

:smallconfused: Nope.... I'm deffinately not doing that. It makes no sense whatsoever, that a party that has nothing to do with magic can find out what it does. They are two rogues, a ranger and a barbarian! Isn't there some ritual of some sort?In RAW such a ritual would be useless, so of course it does not exist.

I would have magic items 'drop hints', and brew a ritual (or an arcana check DC) to identify.

[Tegu8788]

Also, since none of them have anything to do with magic, and no one is inherently a Ritual Caster, who do you expect to make the check? Unless you are using it as a plot hook to make them go to the local wizard/temple.

[MrUberGr]

Well they used to be a rather nice party. Fighter, Paladin|Warlord, Barbarian, Rogue. Then the one died and the fighter got tired of using two dice *facepalm*. Now the Barbarian charges in, the one rogue has fey beast tamer, and the ranger is using a bow. The barbarian is unconscious after each fight, and the others are bruised. Someone has yet to die though... What is funny is that they refuse to purchase any healing pots.

As for the magic items, if they had a wizard or a sorcerer, or at least arcana trained, I'd allow them an arcana check. I was asking for the ritual, I'd have them pay someone to identify it, just like in 3.5e. As for using it as a plot hook, I might actually do that! P.S. neither of the two they have atm are "slotted" they are both wondrous items I gave out as "extras"

[Tegu8788]

We've given you RAW, but, as always, as a DM you get to decide.

However, if you are taking this position because of how something worked in 3.5, then forget it. This is an entirely different game. Take all your expectations, throw them out the window, and leave them there. 4E and 3.5 have virtually nothing in common aside from set dressing.

[Inevitability]

Maybe let them complete a quest and give them a small device that identifies magic items as a reward?

[MrUberGr]

Yeah that would be a good idea. But how would they identify what THAT does? :smallbiggrin: jk!

[Inevitability]

Have it come with an illustrated manual in six languages? :smalltongue:

[Echobeats]

Have it come with an illustrated manual in six languages? :smalltongue:

Or you could have fun drawing an Ikea-style manual. Such as this one.


http://i.imgur.com/LMsW8.jpg