Are there any monsters that hurt casters as much as Rust monsters hurt melee classes?

[Balor01]

A straight enough question, I think. Also, NO, WE ARE NOT TALKING LVL 20 CASTERS HERE, regular casters from lvl 1 and eventually up.

I was thinking grapplers perhaps.

thanks

[Augment Tab]

A straight enough question, I think. Also, NO, WE ARE NOT TALKING LVL 20 CASTERS HERE, regular casters from lvl 1 and eventually up.

I was thinking grapplers perhaps.

thanks

Anything with sufficiently high SR.

Also, rust monsters are one of the few times that monks become relevant. Can just walk right past 'em.

[Urpriest]

A straight enough question, I think. Also, NO, WE ARE NOT TALKING LVL 20 CASTERS HERE, regular casters from lvl 1 and eventually up.

I was thinking grapplers perhaps.

thanks

Grapplers are bad for pretty much everyone, since PCs almost never have grapple checks at monster level unless specialized for it. Casters are actually a bit better off, since many of the best "escape" spells don't have somatic components.

The Adamantine Horror has Disjunction at-will, but that's kind of bad for absolutely everyone really.

In general, stuff with all good saves helps, since while it's possible to get around saves it limits a caster's options somewhat. Dragons and Outsiders are good there, especially Dragons since they tend to have fairly high HD for their CR.

[Telonius]

At low levels, Ethereal Filchers can be pretty nasty for Clerics who haven't prepared Summon Holy Symbol. Wizards who don't have Eschew Materials or who haven't taken decent measures to protect their spellbooks can be pretty seriously inconvenienced as well.

[Ungoded]

Balhannoths have an anti-magic aura.

[Chronos]

Even the things with spell immunity aren't really comparable. If a wizard meets something with spell immunity, worst case scenario, he's not going to be able to contribute to that encounter... But once it's finally over, he's fine. A rust monster, though, is likely to leave a warrior-type crippled for the rest of the entire adventure, and even beyond if the DM doesn't increase the loot to compensate.

[ArqArturo]

Golems, for one.

Dragons because despite their magical prowess, they're cunning, smart, and physically fit.

I like mindflayers because of surprise mindblast+grapple+OMNOMNOM delicious brain

[nedz]

I recall in some editions there was a creature called a disenchanter, which did to magic items what rust monsters did to metal.

They still exist (FF p62) but they are mainly a problem for mundanes — who rely on magic items.

[Socksy]

There's an ooze which happily eats spells and spell slots- the Arcane Ooze (http://eberron.wikia.com/wiki/Arcane_Ooze).

[Red Fel]

Golems, for one.

Seconding Golems (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/golem.htm), although a smart caster knows you don't have to cast a spell on your target to hinder your target. (Grease? Web? Come on, people, we know this.)

If your caster is psionic, Psion-Killers (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/psionKiller.htm) are a Golem's ugly older brother who gave him wedgies and dunked his head in the toilet. Typical immunities apply, plus it gets a free action Dispel Psionics every round. Free action.

And at epic levels, you've got the various versions of Colossus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/colossus.htm) generating an antimagic field, but epic levels are cuckoopants anyway.

[Arael666]

I believe we have a winner.

[Pesimismrocks]

Seconding Golems (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/golem.htm), although a smart caster knows you don't have to cast a spell on your target to hinder your target. (Grease? Web? Come on, people, we know this.)

If your caster is psionic, Psion-Killers (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/psionKiller.htm) are a Golem's ugly older brother who gave him wedgies and dunked his head in the toilet. Typical immunities apply, plus it gets a free action Dispel Psionics every round. Free action.

And at epic levels, you've got the various versions of Colossus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/colossus.htm) generating an antimagic field, but epic levels are cuckoopants anyway.

Gotta second Psion-Killer. Must mention that dispel psionics affects everything within 30ft.

[Red Fel]

Gotta second Psion-Killer. Must mention that dispel psionics affects everything within 30ft.

Yep.

Now imagine that you're playing with magic-psionics transparency.

He's now immune to psionics and magic. His Dispel Psionics, which as mentioned is a free action burst, now dispels psionics and magic within the radius.

Ironically, this is one of those rare times that a power that seriously hurts casters won't do much to mundanes - apart from removing buffs, an area dispel has no effect on magic items. (Targeted dispels can suppress, but area dispels do not.) So that Fighter can keep swinging his +3 longsword, but the Cleric's Righteous Might is going bye-bye.

[Urpriest]

I recall in some editions there was a creature called a disenchanter, which did to magic items what rust monsters did to metal.

They're in the Fiend Folio. Some of the saves are a little easy for a CR 17 creature, but I could see it being a meaningful threat with some optimization.

[Rubik]

According to Sir Giacomo and others, monks are a serious threat to casters, to the point where casters have almost no chance against them, and we all know Giacomo knows what he's talking about.

Pfft...

Hahahahahahaha!

I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I had something...caught in my throat there at the end. Yeah, that's what it was.

[Feint's End]

Generally golems are not really a problem (mindless has some problems against illusions) but I support psion killers. They are pretty hefty and the usual anti golem tricks don't work against them

[Rubik]

Golems really aren't a problem. A single casting of Grease is more likely than not to render them inert for the entire battle, and both casters and manifesters have other ways of dealing with them during that time. (Summons, Astral Constructs, Orbs of X, Crystal Shard, etc.)

[Shining Wrath]

Intellect Devourer? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/intellectDevourer.htm)

Edit: assumes Power Resistance = Spell Resistance, i.e, magic/psionic equivalency is in use.

[Slipperychicken]

Rust monsters aren't that dangerous for melee. Just take your armor off and wield a club. Or keep a nonmetal version of your favorite weapon in your golf bag next to the silver, cold iron, and adamantine ones. Or get a +500gp enchantment (Blueshine) on your +5 Keen Falchion.

[Gildedragon]

I am surprised the Beholder hasn't cropped up, the antimagic eye can be killer if trained on the wizard.

[unseenmage]

There's an ooze which happily eats spells and spell slots- the Arcane Ooze (http://eberron.wikia.com/wiki/Arcane_Ooze).

War Magic (feat from Dragon; see my sig) Summon Arcane Ooze gets very nasty very quickly.

[Ravens_cry]

Anything with sufficiently high SR.

Also, rust monsters are one of the few times that monks become relevant. Can just walk right past 'em.
What if they are a warforged monk?

[Shining Wrath]

What if they are a warforged monk?

I always play Warforged as scared spitless of Rust Monsters. The creature of their nightmares, if they but dreamed....

[ArqArturo]

I am surprised the Beholder hasn't cropped up, the antimagic eye can be killer if trained on the wizard.

Eye guess no one sees him as a mage killer, since he's more of an oddball of the monster manual.

[Shining Wrath]

Eye guess no one sees him as a mage killer, since he's more of an oddball of the monster manual.

Eye believe WotC treats the Beholder as an eye-conic monster, so anyway you slice it it figures to be dangerous

[John Longarrow]

Either Tuckers Kobolds (because what spell caster has enough spells to deal with them?) or Mad Jack Churchill (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Churchill), unless EPIC chracters are off the list.:xykon:

[RegalKain]

I like to combo things like Swarms with Oozes to deal with pesky Wizard types, especially effective at lower levels. Bloodfire Oozes from MM4 are only CR 7, Ephemeral Swarms, and Dread Blossom Swarms both from MM3 make a terrifying combo together, Bloodfire Ooze is the highest CR amongst them as well, but that requires a lot more trapping/setting the encounter up right, that's generally the only way to hamper or threaten wizards, catching them off guard, which is hard to do. Mageripper Swarms are also MM4, and only CR 6, yet they can do some pretty nasty damage at pretty much any level of play.

Generally though, intelligent mixtures of Swarms, Oozes and Golems can do a lot of damage to casters, especially the right versions of them all. If you can grab MM3 and 4, awesome material to challenge players who are skilled and know what they are doing.

That said, as has been proven on GITP, Caster20 is kinda hard to challenge depending on how optimized they are.

[NichG]

In order to be equivalent to a Rust monster, you'd need something that makes a caster permanently forget a spell (as in, they lose it from their spellbook and need to get another scroll of it to prepare it in the future). Or something that drains caster-level (which I suppose could be permanent-until-Restorationed/Greater Restoration'd). I'm not aware of any such things, but I guess that means the Homebrew design space is wide open for it.

I suppose along those lines, anything with permanent level drain is a bit nastier to casters than non-casters, since in addition to losing the level it burns some memorized spells, caster level, and may reduce the maximum spell level the character has access to. But that's mostly just because casters have a more non-linear growth curve than non-casters, not because of any intrinsic property of casting.

[Augment Tab]

What if they are a warforged monk?

...you've got me, there. Maybe get the DM to houserule a feat similar to Adamantine/Mithral Body, but with Duskwood or Wildwood instead.

[Idea Man]

An anti-arcane caster template is the shadowslain. Eats spells from the bottom up at very close distance, though, so not a great high-level opponent.

[Flickerdart]

I always play Warforged as scared spitless of Rust Monsters. The creature of their nightmares, if they but dreamed....
Surely, if they dreamed, it would be of electric sheep?

[ryu]

Surely, if they dreamed, it would be of electric sheep?

Webcomics have taught me that electric sheep actually dream about androids. Who knew?

[nedz]

Kobold Spellthief / Sorcerers — specialising in Rays. Warlocks could work too.
Now you might need a few of them, but a spellcaster without any spells is just a superannuated commoner.

[Vaz]

Anything which can cast as a 15th level Wizard/16th level Sorcerer or better can have Selective Spell Antimagic Field up, which simply means that the user is resticted back to into it's ordinary form (no more Shapechange into a Solar, yay!), and the measly 3 Strength/Dex and Con- Venerable Grey Elf Necropolitan min-maxed Incantatrix is up against something still immensely powerful.

[Kantolin]

I wouldn't put Rust monster and Golem in the same category at all.

The problem with a rust monster isn't at all killing it nor it killing you. It's trivial to kill a rust monster even for a team of swords-only melee fighter types. The thing has 27hp and an AC of 18 - it doesn't take very long for that to be 'one-shot', and even if it gets a turn it does 1d3 damage with an attack roll of -2 as the only method it has of actually harming someone. At level 1, a party of four metal weapon using PHB mundanes would almost certainly take down a rust monster without any casualties.

The problem with a rust monster is 'your metallic equipment (particularly weapon) is permanently gone' mixed with 'you need your weapon in order to function', resulting in long-term sucktitude until you get enough money / random events to fix the problem. So that party of level 1 mundanes would probably end up mechanically naked in the process.

Now, if a rust monster was 'The fighter can do nothing. He sits on the side and twiddles his thumbs'... /then/ a golem would be the correct correlation (presuming nonbuffing, nonsummoning, only-spells-with-SR using blaster wizard). A better comparison to that is Swarm vs Golem.

I don't think you can have a rust monster sort of effect to a nonspellbook caster, as if you were to cause long-term-sucktitude to a sorceror it'd require things like removing his spells, and that's a lot /more/ permanent than 'until you pick up a new weapon' as money won't repair that.

To a spellbook caster, however, anything that removes their spellbook would do it. That would (generally) put them in a state of sucktitude until they got a lot of money. So a homebrew monster that somehow attacks spellbooks when hitting someone would do it.

Although care should be taken, as spellbooks are more expensive than swords - the next room might have 'a slightly rusty sword', which is much more useful for a naked fighter than 'a novice's spellbook' would be to a naked wizard.

(Of course, this then leads to wizards going through spell mastery and other things which make them not spellbook dependent)

Smacking a cleric's holy symbol or a druid's holly and mistletoe will also inconvenience them (the cleric's symbol might even be metal, so a rust monster itself would work) in a way similar to the rust monster'd fighter (insofar as 'you suck until you can retrieve your divine focus'). Of course, there are ways around this too, and some spells that aren't DF, so that depends a bit on optimization.

And I suppose, the dragonhide wearing fighter who's weapon is made out of the bones of the dragon he slayed or some mystical astral material that isn't metal or the souls of the living or pure holy energy or whatever... he doesn't care about the rust monster at all.

[Kazyan]

Balhannoths are pretty awful. They don't just grapple you, they grapple you and it works as if you were in an antimagic field. No contingencies, no Dimension Door, no Heart of Water. You just have to cry and wait for the meatshields you thought you didn't need to come help.

[Deophaun]

Golems really aren't a problem. A single casting of Grease is more likely than not to render them inert for the entire battle, and both casters and manifesters have other ways of dealing with them during that time. (Summons, Astral Constructs, Orbs of X, Crystal Shard, etc.)
There's also the fact that, in the update to 3.5, they became vulnerable to dispel magic.

[Feint's End]

Now, if a rust monster was 'The fighter can do nothing. He sits on the side and twiddles his thumbs'... /then/ a golem would be the correct correlation (presuming nonbuffing, nonsummoning, only-spells-with-SR using blaster wizard). A better comparison to that is Swarm vs Golem.

As has been mentioned several times.. golems are not a threat to even remotely competent casters. They are basically melee brutes with immunity to some direct magic effects but with one of the biggest drawbacks namely being mindless.

Wizards can easily Trick golems using illusion (which they don't recieve saves against) or just manipulate the environment to their advantage.

To sum it up ... golems have a nice advantage against casters but a major disadvantage and a good caster will use that disadvantage. I would say in the end it sums up pretty equally so the golem is neither better nor worse than the average melee brute > not challenging for a caster.

Edit: otherwise your post has some very valid points. A good way to mess with casters is to steal their material components. This isn't a monster though ... more of a type of enemy.

[ryu]

You might wanna delete one of those. The function can be accessed from editing.

[nedz]

Anything which can cast as a 15th level Wizard/16th level Sorcerer or better can have Selective Spell Antimagic Field up, which simply means that the user is resticted back to into it's ordinary form (no more Shapechange into a Solar, yay!), and the measly 3 Strength/Dex and Con- Venerable Grey Elf Necropolitan min-maxed Incantatrix is up against something still immensely powerful.

So set a caster to kill a caster basically. I guess this works at almost any level.

[Kantolin]

As has been mentioned several times.. golem are not a thread to even remotely competent casters. They are basically melee brutes with immunity to some direct magic effects but with one of the biggest drawbacks namely being mindless.

Indeed. This is why I noted 'presuming nonbuffing, nonsummoning, only-spells-with-SR using blaster wizard' shortly after noting them as a 'wizard counter', as noted in what you quoted.

[Feint's End]

You might wanna delete one of those. The function can be accessed from editing.

Thank you. No idea how that just happened. Must have miss clicked.


Indeed. This is why I noted 'presuming nonbuffing, nonsummoning, only-spells-with-SR using blaster wizard' shortly after noting them as a 'wizard counter', as noted in what you quoted.

My bad. Though I don't think it is a very valid point then because assuming a only-spells-with-sr using wizard a lot of things are problematic and dangerous.

Edit: fixed doublepost

[Seerow]

In AD&D there were some worms that loved to eat spellbooks. They were like the Wizard's rustmonster. Did they ever get updated to 3.5?

[Kantolin]

Though I don't think it is a very valid point then because assuming a only-spells-with-sr using wizard a lot of things are problematic and dangerous.

I do agree.

Fireball's still a pretty popular spell, though, along with lightning bolt and stuff. So you're actually pretty likely to run into a low-optimization SR-involved blaster caster who would find a golem to be close to 'sit in a corner' at some point. Of course, a single golem encounter tends to have the nasty side effect of forcing the wizard to optimize a little more (Hmm, there's gotta be /something/ I can do when a golem shows up... hey, haste looks pretty useful...)

Still, the point is that even if a golem /did/ get a wizard to sit on his hands or read a book during a combat, that's not the same as what a rust monster does to a fighter at all. You really would need some sort of 'every turn, you lose a random 1d4 pages out of your spellbook, and if you hit him with a spell you automatically lose that spell from your spellbook' effect or something.

And then even that wouldn't effect sorcerors, or psions, or beguilers. Or if it removed 'spells known', then you have just permanently murdered that sorceror/psion/beguiler to the point of pointlessness akin to 'And now the fighter can /never/ use weapons again' or something.

(And ironically, even those could probably be solved by magic. I'd use planar ally or something and /ask/ a celestial to kill this creature for me for a boon. Or a demon, I guess. Plus illusions and stuff)

Edit:

In AD&D there were some worms that loved to eat spellbooks. They were like the Wizard's rustmonster. Did they ever get updated to 3.5?

Haha, searching for 'AD&D worms that eat spellbooks' on google turns up this very topic as the #1. That'd potentially do it, though - although you'd have issues if you had a nonspellbook caster... still, it's a thing.

Poor Wu Jen and Archivists. (And my bardic sage, who is homebrewed to use a spellbook).

[J-H]

What ever happened to the Hakeashar and Nishruu? They were in Baldur's Gate II. Magic damage (all types) healed them, and every time they hit a caster, the caster would lose his highest-level prepared spell slot for the day. Physical damage was the only way to take them down.

[Shining Wrath]

What ever happened to the Hakeashar and Nishruu? They were in Baldur's Gate II. Magic damage (all types) healed them, and every time they hit a caster, the caster would lose his highest-level prepared spell slot for the day. Physical damage was the only way to take them down.

IIRC one of the Final Fantasy bosses (XIII?) had the nasty habit of shifting which energy type it was vulnerable to, and then absorbing the opposite, while the other two became null.

For 3.5 you'd want to mix in "force" and "sonic" and have 6 options. One works, one helps the target, 4 are null.

[kalasulmar]

How about a shadowslain Nishruu grappler?

[Vaz]

It was in FFX, although may well have appeared in another several. it actually happened twice in that one - Spherimorph, an ooze which does what you said, and Seymour Omnis, which had a wierd set of 4 discs with 4 nodes, which rotated to give him bonuses to spells of that element.

[Mellack]

I don't think that rust monsters are really that scary, except for if they are used as some sort of ambush. Sure, your paladin might not want to be in the front like usual, but tactics always need to adapt to the situation. Rust monsters die easy, and are not a danger to anything but equipment. Just set a light/non-armored guy on them like the rogue, monk, or sorcerer, and use a back up weapon. Your fighter has javelins or axes, right? Rusty will be dead in a round or two.

[ryu]

It was in FFX, although may well have appeared in another several. it actually happened twice in that one - Spherimorph, an ooze which does what you said, and Seymour Omnis, which had a wierd set of 4 discs with 4 nodes, which rotated to give him bonuses to spells of that element.

Although in the case of seymour the control was pretty much entirely in the player's hands. At least the spherimorph switched randomly. Him I cheesed by just doing the magic damage boosting command from every switch until he got a turn to reveal his element with elemental magic. That guy would've been significantly more of a pain if he stuck to his physical attacks hilariously enough.

[Vaz]

Been a long while since I played it. I think I eventually just keep absorbing his attacks with Aeons. Valefor coming him to his own then.

[Summerstorm]

Hm... not really a Monster - But if your foe is a dude with Levels in Spellfire Channeler (And by that one of the VERY rare Spellfire users) he can ready actions to absorb any magic with him as the target - Without fail, if i remember.

After that he uses the magic to fly, heal or just shoot you in the face with up to ConxD6 Half fire - half untyped arcane damage in the face. (Maybe multiple times)

Isn't that powerful but is a fun opponent against a blaster/enchanter.

Hm, put that onto a Karsite (If you don't break the SR... you are healing him) for more passive annoyance.

[Urpriest]

What ever happened to the Hakeashar and Nishruu? They were in Baldur's Gate II. Magic damage (all types) healed them, and every time they hit a caster, the caster would lose his highest-level prepared spell slot for the day. Physical damage was the only way to take them down.

Nishruu are in Monsters of Faerun. They've got an "Absorb Magic" ability that converts damage done by spells into permanent hit points gained (except, oddly enough, by cold and fire spells), gain one hit point per spell level from nondamaging spells cast on them, drains charges from items on contact, temporarily negates non-charged items, and drain a random prepared spell every round, causing a potential (but low-DC) feeblemind when they do so. They're really more of a puzzle monster than an anti-caster monster really, though, since they're kind of hard for a non-caster to damage unless they have salt to throw at it.

[Feint's End]

I do agree.

Fireball's still a pretty popular spell, though, along with lightning bolt and stuff. So you're actually pretty likely to run into a low-optimization SR-involved blaster caster who would find a golem to be close to 'sit in a corner' at some point. Of course, a single golem encounter tends to have the nasty side effect of forcing the wizard to optimize a little more (Hmm, there's gotta be /something/ I can do when a golem shows up... hey, haste looks pretty useful...)

Still, the point is that even if a golem /did/ get a wizard to sit on his hands or read a book during a combat, that's not the same as what a rust monster does to a fighter at all. You really would need some sort of 'every turn, you lose a random 1d4 pages out of your spellbook, and if you hit him with a spell you automatically lose that spell from your spellbook' effect or something.

And then even that wouldn't effect sorcerors, or psions, or beguilers. Or if it removed 'spells known', then you have just permanently murdered that sorceror/psion/beguiler to the point of pointlessness akin to 'And now the fighter can /never/ use weapons again' or something.

(And ironically, even those could probably be solved by magic. I'd use planar ally or something and /ask/ a celestial to kill this creature for me for a boon. Or a demon, I guess. Plus illusions and stuff)

Point taken.

Hmm well generally the problem I see is that casters/manifester etc. use inherent ressources (or close to inherent if the wizard has a spellbook) while the fighter uses external tools which can be manipulated. It is much harder to target inherent ressources because that can not just end in loosing some gear (which is painful for fighters but at least they are the same good after the fight as they are before) but rather in a permanent penalty to your character.

Therefor something akin to a Rust Monster? Does not really exist. It would require a fair amount of homebrew and balancing to make it fair (something like spells get restored after a few days or the caster has to find a certain oil to clear his mind) but then I have to ask what's the point. Most people never use Rust Monsters regardless and the time you spend homebrewing something like that could go into more interesting encounters.
I guess it would be pretty sweet though if somebody took the time to actually do a monster, which would fullfill those requirements. I would use it in my campaign.

[Vogonjeltz]

A straight enough question, I think. Also, NO, WE ARE NOT TALKING LVL 20 CASTERS HERE, regular casters from lvl 1 and eventually up.

I was thinking grapplers perhaps.

thanks

Yes. When describing casters, the Wizard is typically the stand-in, however different classes have different weaknesses, so these may not hold entirely for all full caster classes.

Gelatinous Cube, for example:

A gelatinous cube’s acid does not harm metal or stone.

Ok, so what right? Well, here's another ability of the cube:


Although it moves slowly, a gelatinous cube can simply mow down Large or smaller creatures as a standard action. It cannot make a slam attack during a round in which it engulfs. The gelatinous cube merely has to move over the opponents, affecting as many as it can cover. Opponents can make opportunity attacks against the cube, but if they do so they are not entitled to a saving throw. Those who do not attempt attacks of opportunity must succeed on a DC 13 Reflex save or be engulfed; on a success, they are pushed back or aside (opponent’s choice) as the cube moves forward. Engulfed creatures are subject to the cube’s paralysis and acid, and are considered to be grappled and trapped within its body. The save DC is Strength-based and includes a +1 racial bonus.

Interesting, so basically everything a caster is wearing which is not metal or stone is subject to the cube's acid...but what does the acid do? For that, we turn to the Ooze Type:


•Some oozes have the ability to deal acid damage to objects. In such a case, the amount of damage is equal to 10 + ½ ooze’s HD + ooze’s Con modifier per full round of contact.

For the Cube, that's 10 + 1/2 (4) + Con Mod (8) or 20. Spellbooks are going to have a hardness of 0 (paper) and 2 hp/inch of thickness (i.e. ~5) and so will be instantly destroyed should the cube make contact with the caster. As will their spell component pouch, backpack, quarterstaff, almost everything in their possession will be destroyed, that very same round.

The cube grapples the caster automatically, so any defense is dependent on having no somatic, material, or focus components. (That's alot of spells that are out).

On the grapple front, I'd say an Assassin Vine (CR 3) with it's +12 grapple mod, improved grab, and camouflage would pose a serious threat to a caster.

Any Golem is a threat (though a caster can resort to spells that don't offer SR: Yes, if they have any memorized).

Lastly, most Wizards focus on Dexterity and Constitution as their secondary stats, leaving Str by the wayside. Monstrous Spiders with their Str damage poison (Fort save, another weak point for wizards) pose a serious threat to a wizard.

A colony of Tiny Monstrous Spiders (8-16, CR ranging from 2-4) can potentially deal 8-16 or 16-32 str damage per round. Assuming the Wizard invests nothing into str, this is the possibility of a round 1 incapacitation. And this threat holds true at basically every level from 1-20, all the more dangerous because the Wizard is likely to stumble upon these guys in the forest with no warning at all (Forests reduce sight ranges considerably, and these spiders have at least +15 (!) to their hide checks). If it's a Web spinning colony, that Hide check goes up to +23, which at most levels means the Wizard is not the party member who has a hope of spotting these spiders.

Weakness of the spiders is their low hp, but their offense is pretty great considering they are unlikely to be spotted in advance (surprise round!) even by the classes with both wisdom and spot focuses (i.e. Rangers/Monks).

Anyway, those seem representative of threats that are more significant for a wizard (caster) than a class with a more physical focus. (Rogue-like classes are more likely to avoid the Cube's engulf or see the Spiders coming, and Fighter-like classes are more likely to avoid being paralyzed, by either the cube or the spiders. Both class types are apt to have a method for harming Golems and face no special disadvantage in fighting them.

Oh, casters are also at risk from swarm types, because of the distraction.

[Harrow]

Well, if you consider the other party members to be to the Wizard what magic weapons and armor are to the Fighter, then the Wizard's Rust Monster would be anything with a domination effect. A Succubus, Vampire, even the lowly Puppeteer. In fact, this is much worse for the Wizard, because it not only eliminates his tools, but turns them against him.

[nedz]

Well, if you consider the other party members to be to the Wizard what magic weapons and armor are to the Fighter, then the Wizard's Rust Monster would be anything with a domination effect. A Succubus, Vampire, even the lowly Puppeteer. In fact, this is much worse for the Wizard, because it not only eliminates his tools, but turns them against him.

But by this argument the Rust Monster hurts the caster and the mundane character equally since it takes the Meatshield away from the caster.

[Vaz]

There's a monster in MM2 which has a low DC Feeblemind Touch attack. Giving it some feats like Ability Focus and a points buy would go someway to making it useable against Wizards.

[VanIsleKnight]

Not really, casters are gods. Never play a martial if you can help it.

[Rubik]

I think that any creature that deals ability damage to the caster's key ability score or negative levels would basically be rust monster-ish. Wouldn't it? Especially if the damage were uncurable via magic, such as with vile (ability) damage.

[Shining Wrath]

Not really, casters are gods. Never play a martial if you can help it.

Sometimes I just can't help myself, though.

EDIT:

Idea for a homebrew equivalent: a monster that feeds off of spell energy and can't be harmed directly. As in "not even a Wish, boy". Critters like to follow full casters around and, when they are (unpredictably) hungry, they start eating spell energy until their little tummies are full.

Since this is ad-libbed, don't ask me how you get rid of one. Probably some sort of quest, or traveling to the positive or negative energy plane and hoping the critter explodes before you do.

[Kuulvheysoon]

...you've got me, there. Maybe get the DM to houserule a feat similar to Adamantine/Mithral Body, but with Duskwood or Wildwood instead.

Ironwood Body, from Races of Eberron.

Really, Rust monsters aren't so bad for melee. Now, Annilihilators (Und) or Rust Dragons, on the other hand... those can get downright nasty (in regards to melee)

[Rubik]

Ironwood Body, from Races of Eberron.I'd rather just take the dragonborn template and wear armor unless it's a low-wealth campaign.

[Shining Wrath]

I'd rather just take the dragonborn template and wear armor unless it's a low-wealth campaign.

The "Blueshine" armor upgrade ($2k IIRC) makes armor immune to rust. I recommend it for all Warforged.

[Curmudgeon]

...you've got me, there. Maybe get the DM to houserule a feat similar to Adamantine/Mithral Body, but with Duskwood or Wildwood instead.
Why a house rule? Just take Ironwood Body (Races of Eberron, page 119). It's a feat designed for Warforged Druids, but it's advantageous against Rust Monsters as well.

[Calimehter]

According to Sir Giacomo and others, monks are a serious threat to casters, to the point where casters have almost no chance against them, and we all know Giacomo knows what he's talking about.

Pfft...

Hahahahahahaha!

I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I had something...caught in my throat there at the end. Yeah, that's what it was.

It . . . it *might* be time to think about letting it go. I think its one of those steps on the path to healing or something. ;)

[Augment Tab]

Why a house rule? Just take Ironwood Body (Races of Eberron, page 119). It's a feat designed for Warforged Druids, but it's advantageous against Rust Monsters as well.

I don't have that book, I didn't know about it. Thanks for making me aware of it, both you and Kuulvheysoon.

[Gildedragon]

Sometimes I just can't help myself, though.

EDIT:

Idea for a homebrew equivalent: a monster that feeds off of spell energy and can't be harmed directly. As in "not even a Wish, boy". Critters like to follow full casters around and, when they are (unpredictably) hungry, they start eating spell energy until their little tummies are full.

Since this is ad-libbed, don't ask me how you get rid of one. Probably some sort of quest, or traveling to the positive or negative energy plane and hoping the critter explodes before you do.
You gotta punch it v. fast. Multiple attacks per round, but you take damage every time you touch it, so you gotta have lotsa HP. Or a ridiculous STR check to pry it off the caster's face. Caster must seek aid from BSF or Monk and apologize profusely.

[Kuulvheysoon]

I don't have that book, I didn't know about it. Thanks for making me aware of it, both you and Kuulvheysoon.

No problem - no one can know everything, after all.

[Bakeru]

You gotta punch it v. fast. Multiple attacks per round, but you take damage every time you touch it, so you gotta have lotsa HP. Or a ridiculous STR check to pry it off the caster's face. Caster must seek aid from BSF or Monk and apologize profusely.

Why ask the fighter or the monk? Summon Monster.

[FabulousFizban]

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/traps-hazards-and-special-terrains/hazards/3rd-party-hazards/bookworm-1-8-tohc

bookworm, that is all.

[DigoDragon]

Kobold Spellthief / Sorcerers — specialising in Rays. Warlocks could work too.

The Spelltheif class is one of my favorite goto solutions to annoy the applesauce out of spellcasters. :smallbiggrin:
Works great on a kobold build.

[nedz]

The Spelltheif class is one of my favorite goto solutions to annoy the applesauce out of spellcasters. :smallbiggrin:
Works great on a kobold build.

They're tricky to build well though. Wiz or Sorc into Unseen Seer, AT or even Spellwarp Sniper is tempting but you really need half your levels to be ST if you want to be able to steal, and then cast, the higher level spells — At which point your casting sucks.

[Shining Wrath]

Why ask the fighter or the monk? Summon Monster.

You cast "Summon Monster", the spell-eating critter says "omnomnom", and you still have a spell eating critter and one fewer spell to cast today. Your spell-casting friend tries it, same result, because the critter is happy to dine on any spell cast in its vicinity.

[Bakeru]

You cast "Summon Monster", the spell-eating critter says "omnomnom", and you still have a spell eating critter and one fewer spell to cast today. Your spell-casting friend tries it, same result, because the critter is happy to dine on any spell cast in its vicinity.In that case, it's not "Magic-immune critter that follows you and randomly eats your spell slots" as originally proposed, but "Selective Anti-Magic Field that doesn't affect magic items following you around."

But then, the target is a full caster. This might actually the lowest bar to stop them.

[Shining Wrath]

In that case, it's not "Magic-immune critter that follows you and randomly eats your spell slots" as originally proposed, but "Selective Anti-Magic Field that doesn't affect magic items following you around."

But then, the target is a full caster. This might actually the lowest bar to stop them.

Having a monk or fighter apply a mundane solution was someone else's idea. I wanted the wizard to have to travel to the ethereal plane and fighting the critter there - with his dagger, or something.

And it doesn't eat EVERY spell - just when it's hungry. So if you happen to cast "Summon Monster" when it's not hungry, and the summoned monster can deal with it, you win.

Eventually, full casters always win. The trick is to make them stop and think about it first.

[Bakeru]

The problem with Planar Travel as the answer is that it makes, yet again, Magic the answer.
The only answer even, since mundanes can't do planar travel without fiat.

Having a monster that inconveniences casters without directly "lol, nope"ing them is hard. Well, if your casters are optimised. If they aren't, the whole problem probably doesn't exist, I guess.

[Slipperychicken]

You could make Mini-Tarrasques, which have an ability similar to Carapace. Then, you'd also have an excuse to make spell-reflecting armor.

[NichG]

Actually, there is another sort of thing that'd make for a Rust Monster analogue for (certain) casters - effects which suppress 'Permanency' and make the original duration of the underlying spell run out. That's basically draining caster XP, analogous to how a Rust Monster drains the wealth of melee characters. Its both replaceable, and costly to replace, so I think it fits.

[Fitz10019]

Are there any monsters that hurt casters as much as Rust monsters hurt melee classes?

Whichever one shows up after they're out of spells.

Does D&D have an equivalent to Freddie Krueger? Is there a monster or creature designed to mess with or to interrupt the sleep/rest of casters?

[NichG]

Whichever one shows up after they're out of spells.

Does D&D have an equivalent to Freddie Krueger? Is there a monster or creature designed to mess with or to interrupt the sleep/rest of casters?

Anything with access to the spell 'Nightmare' could do it. I thought Night Hags would have had it, but it turns out they have something different that uses an Etherealness effect and inflicts a point of Con drain, but doesn't actually interfere with spell prep.

[TuggyNE]

Formian Queens and a few dragons have the ability to cast nightmare without class levels. That's about it in core.


I thought Night Hags would have had it, but it turns out they have something different that uses an Etherealness effect and inflicts a point of Con drain, but doesn't actually interfere with spell prep.

Yeah, and "tormenting dreams" are not, as such, necessarily disruptive to spell recovery. Kind of whack, really. I hate it when what should be general rules (if you have really bad dreams, you can't recover spells) are only applicable to one spell or feat or whatever. Such as nightmare.

Also, night hags are only effective on Chaotic and/or Evil targets, which means that a TN or better caster is immune. So not generally particularly relevant to PC casters, which tend to have maybe a 1/3 chance of being Chaotic and, what, a 1/10 chance of being Evil or less?

[Alex12]

Formian Queens and a few dragons have the ability to cast nightmare without class levels. That's about it in core.



Yeah, and "tormenting dreams" are not, as such, necessarily disruptive to spell recovery. Kind of whack, really. I hate it when what should be general rules (if you have really bad dreams, you can't recover spells) are only applicable to one spell or feat or whatever. Such as nightmare.

Also, night hags are only effective on Chaotic and/or Evil targets, which means that a TN or better caster is immune. So not generally particularly relevant to PC casters, which tend to have maybe a 1/3 chance of being Chaotic and, what, a 1/10 chance of being Evil or less?

There's a bit in Heroes of Horror (page 54) that discusses how chronic nightmares prevent recovering arcane spells, and eventually leads to worse effects.

[Thealtruistorc]

I recall in some editions there was a creature called a disenchanter, which did to magic items what rust monsters did to metal.

Pathfinder has it in Bestiary 2.

[TuggyNE]

There's a bit in Heroes of Horror (page 54) that discusses how chronic nightmares prevent recovering arcane spells, and eventually leads to worse effects.

Hmm. Interesting. Is this generalized, as in "whenever you have chronic nightmares", or is it "this monster gives you Chronic Nightmares, which do X" or the like? Either way, good to know.

[Pex]

I don't recall seeing it in 3E nor Pathfinder, but I remember in 2E there was a creature, plant base I think, called an Obliviax that eats spell slots.

After a google check . . .

It eats memories, targeting spellcasters first. Memories include prepared spells.

[Alex12]

Hmm. Interesting. Is this generalized, as in "whenever you have chronic nightmares", or is it "this monster gives you Chronic Nightmares, which do X" or the like? Either way, good to know.

It's a generalized thing, meant for horror campaigns. I'm sure you could homebrew or modify some effects other than curses that would inflict it.


Nightmares serve very well as the punishment bestowed by a curse, as the sign of a god’s displeasure, or as a source of supernatural torment. Characters wake up screaming, their worst fears yanked to the forefront of their minds and overlaid with even more horrible images inspired by the
source of the nightmares.
A character who regularly suffers nightmares—not now and again, or even once or twice a week, but on a nightly basis—is incapable of getting any real rest. Until she can find some way to lift the curse or appease the entity bestowing the nightmares, she cannot recover arcane spells. After a number of days equal to her Constitution modifier (minimum 1), the character is fatigued constantly. After two weeks plus a number of days equal to her Constitution modifier, the character is exhausted constantly. For every day beyond this point that the character cannot escape the nightmares, she risks damage to her very sanity. After each additional night of nightmares, she must make a successful Will save (DC 10 + 1 per night over two weeks) to avoid having her depravity score increase by 1. For more on depravity, see Mental Symptoms on page 65.
The depravity bit could easily be replaced with something else (a penalty to a random mental stat, perhaps?) if you don't want to use taint rules.

[Time Blossom]

I think that any creature that deals ability damage to the caster's key ability score or negative levels would basically be rust monster-ish. Wouldn't it? Especially if the damage were uncurable via magic, such as with vile (ability) damage.See, that's the first thing I thought, too. Ability drain is a pretty perfect analogue to equipment destruction. You can fix it, eventually, but it's expensive to do so, and in the meantime you are completely unable to fulfill your class's function.

[TuggyNE]

See, that's the first thing I thought, too. Ability drain is a pretty perfect analogue to equipment destruction. You can fix it, eventually, but it's expensive to do so, and in the meantime you are completely unable to fulfill your class's function.

Better yet, ability burn, which knocks you out until it heals naturally.

[Vaz]

Mm2 there is a Demon or devil with a Feeblemind touch attack. On BSF it is 'okay' they rarely use Intelligence anyway. Against casters... well...

[Time Blossom]

Better yet, ability burn, which knocks you out until it heals naturally.Eh, I feel like "regain efficacy at great cost" is a better solution than "nope lol you can just sit there and twiddle your thumbs for two weeks."

Drain is permanent until you get some magical healing–which, since you're going after the casters, is presumably going to be outsourced rather than in-house. Having to pay for a restoration spell is at least roughly analogous to having to buy a new sword. Especially since high-level NPC clerics are not necessarily easy to come by.

Mind you, your INT or WIS modifiers are probably not things that carry sentimental value, while your trusty steel companion might very well be. That's the real slap in the face: you earned that piece of equipment, you had history with it, you shed blood with it, both yours and your enemies'. It wasn't a +2 to attack rolls; it was a friend.

And then a bug ate it.

And then the wizard said "Don't worry, I'll make you a new one."

And then you wrote about it on your livejournal, dyed your hair black and started taking warlock levels.

[Alex12]

*snip*
And then you wrote about it on your livejournal, dyed your hair black and started taking warlock levels.

Sigging this.

[Time Blossom]

By all means. :smallsmile: