Game of Thrones thread number I dunno - do we still talk about this?

[Otomodachi]

So, I dunno, I've been up and down the four pages of forums and I can't find the game of thrones thread, so maybe it didn't get migrated to to the newer forums or something? I'll totally mark this for closing if someone else would prefer to run the thread, else-wise everything is open for edit by consensus, as far as I'm concerned. I just had a really specific gripe; I'm gonna post it in reply to this so this can all be edited.

[Otomodachi]

So, I was watching the newest episode of the Game of Thrones TV show, Laws of Gods and Men I think, and-

WHAT the HECK is up with this dungeon rescue scene for Theon? Like, even tossing aside the fact that it's just fabricated, how am I supposed to belief that like a rank and a half of irregulars are going to fare well against a solid full-plate/tower-shield-line of Ironborn? What is the PURPOSE of this scene? Was it just to get me fired up with some manly puissance? Could I just have some more of Jaime and Bronn fighting?

[tomandtish]

A big part of the problem a series like this is going to face is hanging on to actors.

If they followed the books straight, then after Theon vanished in Book 2, you wouldn't see him again till Book 5. Even though it runs concurrent with Book 4, that still means you would have had two seasons (at least) without the actor being used.

Alfie Allen (the actor) certainly isn't going to sit around and not do anything during that time, and isn't going to promise to pass on a better job if one arises, and the show isn't going to pay him for two seasons of sitting around. They presumably wrote scripts and worked a deal where he appears in a certain number of episodes and is therefore guaranteed to be available. That's why we are seeing everything that happened to Theon instead of learning about it after the fact. You can assume something similar is true for any character that seems to be getting screen time when they shouldn't based on the books.

[Otomodachi]

A big part of the problem a series like this is going to face is hanging on to actors.

If they followed the books straight, then after Theon vanished in Book 2, you wouldn't see him again till Book 5. Even though it runs concurrent with Book 4, that still means you would have had two seasons (at least) without the actor being used.

Alfie Allen (the actor) certainly isn't going to sit around and not do anything during that time, and isn't going to promise to pass on a better job if one arises, and the show isn't going to pay him for two seasons of sitting around. They presumably wrote scripts and worked a deal where he appears in a certain number of episodes and is therefore guaranteed to be available. That's why we are seeing everything that happened to Theon instead of learning about it after the fact. You can assume something similar is true for any character that seems to be getting screen time when they shouldn't based on the books.

No, but see, I'm totally OK with divergences as a general rule. But even tossing that aside, this entire scene made no sense.

It's like 7 vs 5 and so the odds aren't even that skewed, and it's like perfect equipment for that space vs. just weapons. I just don't even. And, then, are we ditching all the other ironborn stuff ON the iron isles ATM?

On a positive note-

that trial scene was great, and I am always glad when we check in on Stannis. :)

[Math_Mage]

A big part of the problem a series like this is going to face is hanging on to actors.

If they followed the books straight, then after Theon vanished in Book 2, you wouldn't see him again till Book 5. Even though it runs concurrent with Book 4, that still means you would have had two seasons (at least) without the actor being used.

Alfie Allen (the actor) certainly isn't going to sit around and not do anything during that time, and isn't going to promise to pass on a better job if one arises, and the show isn't going to pay him for two seasons of sitting around. They presumably wrote scripts and worked a deal where he appears in a certain number of episodes and is therefore guaranteed to be available. That's why we are seeing everything that happened to Theon instead of learning about it after the fact. You can assume something similar is true for any character that seems to be getting screen time when they shouldn't based on the books.
Keep in mind that the events Theon's currently going through are from Book 5, while Westeros is still in Book 3. The show has a lot of leeway to recut everything to fit the needs of a TV show, and Theon's role can be stretched out relative to the rest of the show without much strain due to how dense the books are.

[Eldan]

I think they utterly ruined Stannis in the series. In the book, sure, he was sometimes a bit whiny and always generally grumpy, but in the series, he seems to have only two modes: plank of wood or snarling madman.

[Otomodachi]

I think they utterly ruined Stannis in the series. In the book, sure, he was sometimes a bit whiny and always generally grumpy, but in the series, he seems to have only two modes: plank of wood or snarling madman.

He's the man that CAN NOT BEND. He's the man of tin. :) He does seem a bit less... hinged, I guess, in the show. To me he comes off as a person that can only see reality in one very narrow way. He's competent and fair but it doesn't matter because part of the world we live in IS consensual, the social contracts and values and other bits. So he has this great tragic flaw, still, that turns all his virtues to dross.

As long as he makes it to the wall for the end of this season, I'll be happy. :) And next season, we endure the harrowing death march. :(

[tomandtish]

Keep in mind that the events Theon's currently going through are from Book 5, while Westeros is still in Book 3. The show has a lot of leeway to recut everything to fit the needs of a TV show, and Theon's role can be stretched out relative to the rest of the show without much strain due to how dense the books are.

Actually, many of these events have already happened to him when we come across him in book 5. They are referred back to, but never seen and appear to have happened during the end of book 2 and during book 3.

Specifically, pretty much all his physical torture has already occurred by the time we catch back up with him.

[Math_Mage]

Actually, many of these events have already happened to him when we come across him in book 5. They are referred back to, but never seen and appear to have happened during the end of book 2 and during book 3.

Specifically, pretty much all his physical torture has already occurred by the time we catch back up with him.
Currently going through. The stuff from season 3 isn't what I'm talking about.

[Legato Endless]

It's interesting in that, while we still technically have two books yet to go, we are in some ways at the tipping point, thanks to the aforementioned density spoilers are beginning to intrude. Spoilers for those who are actually up to date in the series.

The…recent depiction of the Others being the biggest, and frankly I'm surprised it hasn't merited a thread being started up in itself. That has pretty big implications for the mythos, and we may well learn something really substantial about this well before we see it in book form.

[Dienekes]

I think they utterly ruined Stannis in the series. In the book, sure, he was sometimes a bit whiny and always generally grumpy, but in the series, he seems to have only two modes: plank of wood or snarling madman.

I agree. Apparently the show runners loved Renly and because Stannis killed him they hate Stannis. So, they seem to ignore all the evidence that Renly would have been a terrible king, except for him being gay, and magnify all of Stannis' poor qualities and ignore his good. They seem to have just shifted every good thing Stannis accomplishes to Davos.

Sure he's the man of iron, but in the books he didn't seriously contemplate killing his nephew. He didn't just follow Melisandre. His wife didn't have the fetus's of his dead kids in jars. They just made him repulsive instead of being an intelligent but flawed man.

As to the show. There are more changes this season than any other I think. Some of them had potential but they didn't really do anything with (Bran I'm looking at you. Not that I'm against the changes there, Bran's chapters were dull). I enjoy them showing more Ramsay. Now that Joff bit the dust the show needs a new utter psychopath.

[Rawhide]

I am so sorry. (http://www.danbarham.com/dinklage/)

[russdm]

I am mostly surprised about its popularity considering how so much of it comes across as Medieval Soap Opera more than Gritty medieval fantasy or any kind of actual fantasy. It has little fantasy, not enough for my tastes and I am getting tired of not enough Arya Awesomeness happening. C'mon already! Let the dragons burn bloody everybody here already, lets up the dragon action people!

[MLai]

The failed castle-storming in this last episode was categorically stupid, and I say this as someone who never read the books and purposely avoids any book spoilers. Even I could tell this scene was out of place.

(1) The Ironborn all simultaneously abandoned Theon, from the king down to the grunts. Suddenly they act all noble and decide to stage a dangerous mission to rescue him while the pirate princess growls out some hypocritical brotherly tripe?
(2) Ramsay acting all anime and fighting fully armed and armored soldiers in a confined space while semi-naked. Just no. He should be dead. And they had the gall to put it right in the same episode where The Hound was lecturing about how swordsmanship depends on wearing armor and having a brute advantage.
(3) The Ironborn patiently waiting for Ramsey to fumble out a key (while monologuing) to let the dogs out.
(4) And then they run all the way back to their boats. Presumably with the dogs on their asses. But I guess they run faster than the dogs.

[pita]

The jailbreak scene was off, but for me the show has a once-an-episode "I forgive you for being stupid" card that they usually cash in. They cash it in also for Littlefinger being portrayed in a ludicrously creepy way.
The trial scene was incredible. It was beyond incredible. It was amazing actors absolutely owning their every line. Peter Dinklage took a line that almost any other actor would make incredibly cheesy and owned the **** out of it. Seriously, imagine any other actor trying to find a good way to say "I'm on trial for being a dwarf". Peter Dinklage is on a level with the absolute greatest, and the series is showing it tremendously. And the guy who plays Oberyn is acting in a comedy and only Conleth Hill (Varys) gets it.

[Killer Angel]

I am so sorry. (http://www.danbarham.com/dinklage/)

If we're going a little OT, let me link this trailer (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxSXGaH79Yk). :smallcool:

[pita]

I meant to link to this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kFmY2ehKjU) earlier but I blanked.

[CWater]

If we're going a little OT, let me link this trailer (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxSXGaH79Yk). :smallcool:

XD Ok, that's just hilarious!:smallbiggrin:

[Derthric]

It's interesting in that, while we still technically have two books yet to go, we are in some ways at the tipping point, thanks to the aforementioned density spoilers are beginning to intrude. Spoilers for those who are actually up to date in the series.

The…recent depiction of the Others being the biggest, and frankly I'm surprised it hasn't merited a thread being started up in itself. That has pretty big implications for the mythos, and we may well learn something really substantial about this well before we see it in book form.

I loved that scene up in the lands of always winter. Maybe I am just desperate for anything new but I really enjoyed seeing more of the Others.

And for AshaYara's scene last week
I likened that scene to Theon's memory of when one of the girl's ramsay was torturing had come to take him out, Kyra I think. And he didn't believe her. Plus now we can see Yara returning to the Iron Isles when she does in the 4th book and not right away which sets up some of the other greyjoys to make their enterence

[CWater]

I loved that scene up in the lands of always winter. Maybe I am just desperate for anything new but I really enjoyed seeing more of the Others.

And for AshaYara's scene last week
I likened that scene to Theon's memory of when one of the girl's ramsay was torturing had come to take him out, Kyra I think. And he didn't believe her. Plus now we can see Yara returning to the Iron Isles when she does in the 4th book and not right away which sets up some of the other greyjoys to make their enterence

Why did they change her name btw? Was it because it was too similiar to Osha?

[Lord Raziere]

I am so sorry. (http://www.danbarham.com/dinklage/)

Tyrion: proof that even when they're technically a clean-shaven human mastermind manipulator hedonist, dwarves are still badass.

[Eldan]

Why did they change her name btw? Was it because it was too similiar to Osha?

Yes, exactly that. There's a few quotes about it going around online.

[Elhann]

So, I guess marrying Tyrion has lead Sansa into the ranks of people who slap annoying people like a boss, hasn't it?

Very nice episode, this last one.

Also, Hot Pie and Podrick sharing a scene. Yay!

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Hey, I actually watched last night's episode! Because I was with friends.

The guy playing Littlefinger--what a smug jerk. And, kidney pie. And it was great to watch people's anticipation on the closing scene, while I knew what was coming.

[Otomodachi]

Hey, I actually watched last night's episode! Because I was with friends.

The guy playing Littlefinger--what a smug jerk. And, kidney pie. And it was great to watch people's anticipation on the closing scene, while I knew what was coming.

Hey, I just saw it last night. Littlefinger IS a smug jerk! He'd have seemed even smugger if he'd admitted to

being the hand behind the poisoning of Jon Arryn that set the entire story into motion. He also would've seemed more sympathetic if he'd had, y'know, 90 seconds to talk about what it was like to be stuck as a 'lord' and live with the highest of the high but just be peripheral because your breeding and wealth isn't quite suitable enough. Sort of makes his character make sense, but let's cut it. The way Lisa date raped him by getting him drunk and saying she was her sister probably coloured his views towards sex, but hey, no time for that either! Again, I'm not against changing content to make a better TV show but from the way it felt in the books I had the Moon Door scene pegged as the last thing we'd see before the season finale credits rolled, and instead it felt flat to me.

The final line before she left, though, that was well delivered. Thanks Aiden. :)

[Eldan]

Was that a new actor as the mountain or did I just remember his face wrong?

[Drakenkin]

Yep! It's the third actor to play him, iirc.

[Pokonic]

Yep! It's the third actor to play him, iirc.

Presumably, this will be the last one. :smallbiggrin:

[Seerow]

Presumably, this will be the last one. :smallbiggrin:

Robert Strong may have something to say about that statement

[Legato Endless]

Robert Strong may have something to say about that statement

At least at that point we won't be able to tell when they mix up the casting thanks to his lack of features.

[Pokonic]

At least at that point we won't be able to tell when they mix up the casting thanks to his lack of features.

I remember a old joke about how this version of Gregor is simply Westeros's most successful Faceless Man, because even when he changes into different forms people simply don't notice.

[TillySparks]

They've done a fairly good job at keeping his voice the same though. Listen to the 1 sentence he speaks in season 1,2 and 3. They've clearly got the actors faking a particular kind of gruff, deep voice.

[Lizard Lord]

OMG! The Mountain is a Timelord! :smalleek:

[Ace Mace]

Some thoughts on the last few episodes. Not sure if these are spoilers, but I just want to make sure. Better safe than sorry:

About the Theon-Castle-Rescue scene, yeah I do agree with the general consensus it was pointless. That said, I still enjoyed it more that Jon Snow liberating Craster's Keep. Your scene has a lot of dramatic weight when your psychic character just declares who is/isn't going to die in the near future.:smallannoyed: Maybe it's just me, but I was expecting a much better confrontation.

That being said, I do think The Laws of Gods and Men and Mockingbird were both excellent episodes and I'm excited for the upcoming episodes.

[Otomodachi]

So, I see on Wikipedia that the next episode will be entitled

the Viper and the Mountain.

Are we excited about this? Yes we are. :)

[Seerow]

So, I see on Wikipedia that the next episode will be entitled

the Viper and the Mountain.

Are we excited about this? Yes we are. :)

Yet they never once in the show actually referred to him as the Viper. >_>

[JadedDM]

Actually, they did once...in passing. It was shortly after he first arrived in King's Landing, I think. And what an awesome duelist he is.

[shadow_archmagi]

Between the scene in the brothel and his general clearly-a-boss way of speaking and moving, I don't have to have read the books to know 100% that he is the viper the title refers to.

[ChaosArchon]

Oh my gods... that was easily the most horrifying death I've ever seen on the show :smalleek:

[JustPlayItLoud]

Oh my gods... that was easily the most horrifying death I've ever seen on the show :smalleek:

It's not often that I watch anything with my jaw literally hanging open.

[Dienekes]

I love watching this show with non book readers. Oh how I laugh, and oh how they hate me.

I suppose I should give some thoughts.

The Grey Worm story is stupid. I hate when they writers do this. Oh we don't know how to do a character arc, here, let's add a romance for absolutely no reason that doesn't add anything to the story and doesn't make sense for the characters. It's dumb.

I have no idea what they're doing with Arya and the Hound. They just sort of announced that Arya was alive in front of a bunch of people, this seems a really strange change to make (though Arya's reaction to finding out her aunt is dead was hilarious). Same with Sansa really. I kind of like that we see Sansa's blossoming crafiness more directly than we do in the book where it is only displayed because she guesses Lyn Corbray's role in Baelish's plan, but again, announcing herself a Stark in front of a bunch of people is kind of a big change.

The Wall is off being Wall-y. Some changes from the book, but ultimately they just serve to add some action scenes while we wait for something important to happen. At least they didn't butcher Ser Thorne's character any further than they already had. I have no problem with it, so, moving on.

The Bolton's are fun. I think the actors who play Theon and Ramsay are both really good, and they didn't have Ramsay do anything stupid this time around, so I liked it. Also, the Ironborn continue to be backstabbing bickering bastards. How have they not been wiped out yet? GRRM, I love you, but you made a group of disorganized vikings that keep causing trouble for hundreds of years without any of the actual resources and reasons that allowed the vikings to be successful in the first place. They should have all been destroyed centuries ago.

So... Jaime and Tyrion's last discussion before the big day is about beetles. You know, a lot of the speeches added for the show are pretty decent. I thought this one was weak.

And finally the fight. Ok, this show has been going on for 4 years now. Is it really too much to ask to train your actors how to use a longsword? I know the actor playing The Mountain is new, but he was flailing around like he didn't know what he was doing. Martell was pretty good though (though admittedly I don't know as much about spear fighting), his flips were mostly utterly pointless and would do nothing but wear him out after the first couple which giving the benefit of the doubt were there to warm him up. But whatever, at least he looked like he was a competent fighter. It was still a really fun scene, and that ending. The pop. It was great. People watching with me screamed. I loved it.

[Callos_DeTerran]

It's not often that I watch anything with my jaw literally hanging open.

...

...

...*Snrk*.

On a more serious note, greatly enjoyed the episode but...maybe I've been pampered by more unrealistic series but I was hoping for a little more from the fight scene itself (mostly on the Mountain's side of things) and on the Mountain's actual lines.

[Hattish Thing]

Well then. That. That was one of the most suspenseful battle scenes I've watched in a long time. And easily the grossest death on the show. I just sat there with my brother staring at the credits for about a minute. That.... was horrifying. If only Oberyn had simply gone for the quick kill. I really wanted to see a goodish character win this time... This new Mountain actor is very good at being detestable.

Or maybe I'm bias. Oberyn was one of my favorites, and now Tyrion's probably going to die. Unless the Mountain dies too.... Would he be allowed to live then, or...?

[ChaosArchon]

I think the whole beetle speech (while super weird and weak) was basically supposed to represent the strong brutes of the world oppressing the weak (Tyrion)... I think. But yeah why did Oberyn have start to monaloging, it never ends well :smallannoyed:

[Hattish Thing]

I think the whole beetle speech (while super weird and weak) was basically supposed to represent the strong brutes of the world oppressing the weak (Tyrion)... I think. But yeah why did Oberyn have start to monaloging, it never ends well :smallannoyed:

Yeah. I... I really wanted The Mountain to die. I hate that character so much. Espescially now. Oberyn was lucky to bring him down in the first place. Ugh.

I saw the big dumb uncle Lannister guy smashing beetles as foreshadowiny. Kinda put me on end. Oberyn as the proverbial beetle...

Beetles got smashed. :smallfrown:

[ChaosArchon]

I'm pretty sure the Mountain did die, just after Oberyn and thus Tyrion lost. Might be wrong though but he seemed dead/dying (just not headmashsed like Obeyrn).

[Hattish Thing]

I'm pretty sure the Mountain did die, just after Oberyn and thus Tyrion lost. Might be wrong though but he seemed dead/dying (just not headmashsed like Obeyrn).

So. It looks like my favorite character is destined for death. Poo.

[BananaPhone]

a) I'm a bit of a self-spoiler and I accidently read the outcome of the Viper and the Mountain fight a month ago...but damn, seeing that happen to one of my favorite characters is the first time in the session I've actually gone full on wide-eyed 8O face. And all to The Mountain happily proclaiming how he raped his sister? Gah.

I'm so glad that:
...the mountain dies a painful, horrible death because Oberyns spear was poisoned. That's why the guy was so confident. There are a lot of sick ****s on the show, but The Mountain arouses a particular loathing in me. I'm very happy that Oberyn will get his revenge and The Mountain will get his just, agonising due. I can't wait to see this over-grown bag of **** suffer.

b) Now that I think about it, that little talk between Jaimie and Tyrion, the thing about that retarded guy crushing beetles...we're watching a show in which the writer just kills off favorite characters without people expecting it. It was almost a simile. (except the retard part lol)

c) I hated Sansa at the beginning of the show, but I've liked her more and more as time has gone on - most likely because she's changing. She used to be a terrible player at the Game of Thrones, but now she seems to be becoming an acolyte of deception beneath Bailish (another guy I hope dies horribly).

d) Damn...Jorah. I've actually liked this guy. His spying was a bit wanky, but after he turned his back on it, saved Daenyrs' life and gave that little speech as to why he wants to see her become the Queen of Westeros, I've liked the guy as a trusted adviser. It was painful to watch him depart Mereen like that.

e) I like Arra's character, but I'm glad her cross-country stint with The Hound has come to an end. It was getting pretty stale.

f) Next week we'll see the battle of the wall! Hopefully they'll take the experience they learned filming The Battle of Black Water and give us an awesome battle scene.

[Maelstrom]

I personally enjoyed the little line dropped in Baelish's talk with Robyn about death - "People even die while squatting over their chamberpots" Next episode maybe?

[ChaosArchon]

Yeah seeing Sansa finally become a true player in the Game was actually pretty awesome. I was so tired of her just being really passive and not doing much other than crying. Also Arya's laugh kinda made the episode for me, so full of happiness and without the boredom or pain she usually has, its good to see that sometimes in GoT (of course now that shes shown shes kinda happy ofc something horrible is gonna happen next episode for her I think).

[Rawhide]

Guys. Can you please use the option (spoiler=option) to mark the reason for the spoilers? Specifically, mention if you are talking about a spoiler for a particular episode (e.g. "Season 4 Episode 8", or a shorthand representation such as "Recent episode") or spoilers for future episodes (e.g. "Spoilers from books", "Future spoilers from the books").

[Dienekes]

Mind you. I will of course label my spoilers. But spoilers started cropping up as soon as a new episode aired. Not sure what else you'd expect them to be about.

[Legato Endless]

Noted.

Well except that last one. I would love to know a future spoiler from the books. Anyone have an advanced copy of Winds of Winter? :smalltongue:

[Hadrian_Emrys]

"of course now that shes shown shes kinda happy ofc something horrible is gonna happen next episode for her I think"

I don't get the impression that was a happy laugh so much as a reflection of something snapping in her brain.

[ChaosArchon]

I just meant she showed something other than grumpy miss killerpants and loosened up a bit

[AtlanteanTroll]

[
...the mountain dies a painful, horrible death because Oberyns spear was poisoned. That's why the guy was so confident. There are a lot of sick ****s on the show, but The Mountain arouses a particular loathing in me. I'm very happy that Oberyn will get his revenge and The Mountain will get his just, agonising due. I can't wait to see this over-grown bag of **** suffer.

Looks to me as if you don't know the full aftermath yet... :smallamused:

[Ashen Lilies]

I saw that laugh as Arya indulging in a little bit of black humor at the absurdity of it all. Yet another relative of hers she thought she would be able to find sanctuary with is dead. After the Red Wedding and her brother and mother getting slaughtered right before her, minutes away from thinking she was reaching safety, coming all the way to the Vale and hearing "oh yeah sorry your aunt died three days ago" is pretty hilarious in comparison. She's also having a genuine laugh at the Hound's expense as well. After all he's done and all he's been through to bring his hostage in, the poor bastard won't be getting his ransom. Given how much she hates him, of course she's going to find a little humor in his misfortune.

[Swaoeaeieu]

http://i.imgur.com/gDv3Eh3.jpg

[Yana]

Noted.

Well except that last one. I would love to know a future spoiler from the books. Anyone have an advanced copy of Winds of Winter? :smalltongue:

Arya gets her revenge on one of her names in this book in an incredibly creepy manner.

[AtlanteanTroll]

http://i.imgur.com/gDv3Eh3.jpg

Had the same thoughts myself while watching. Sadly, my friends didn't find it amusing when I shouted "Simba!" at the end of the scene...

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Well then. That. That was one of the most suspenseful battle scenes I've watched in a long time. And easily the grossest death on the show. I just sat there with my brother staring at the credits for about a minute. That.... was horrifying. If only Oberyn had simply gone for the quick kill. I really wanted to see a goodish character win this time... This new Mountain actor is very good at being detestable.

Or maybe I'm bias. Oberyn was one of my favorites, and now Tyrion's probably going to die. Unless the Mountain dies too.... Would he be allowed to live then, or...?



The grossness of the death definitely highlights the crushing and brutal nature of the expected reversal. It's pretty bad in the books, too. It really does highlight just how badly things go, compared to how you'd expect them to in a more heroic story.

[Sith_Happens]

Oberyn (v.)– To **** up because you won't shut the **** up.

[Elhann]

I won't bother with spoilers, as I'm going to be very not-specific.

It is a pity that THE scene is going to eat the rest of an otherwise excelent episode. Loved every little bit of it.

The next episode has to be an absolute blast to improve this one, and keep the trend of 9th episode being the best in every season.

Also, Missandei is <3
EDIT: And no, I'm not talking about nakedness.

[ChaosArchon]

Really? cuz she doesn't seem to be too into love as much as burning all the heretics, she'd fit in perfectly in the WH40k universe. Love just doesn't seem like her cup of tea.

[Elhann]

No, no! The woman in red that likes people in flames is Melisandre.

Missandei is the sweet girl who works as a translator for the dragon queen.

Other than the name confusion, though, your assessment of Melisandre is perfect :smallbiggrin:

[ChaosArchon]

Ah my mistake, I mess up those two names sometimes :P But yes I actually like the Daenerys storyline so I'm interested to see what happens next across the Narrow Sea as well.

[Pokonic]

Well, it seems like Oberyn forgot to
get his head in the game.

:smalltongue:

[Drakenkin]

Oh, Oberyn
I knew from the beginning your fate, and yet I still rooted for you. :smallfrown:

[ChaosArchon]

Well, it seems like Oberyn forgot to
get his head in the game.

:smalltongue:

There are so many jokes like this flying around, such as how showboating is not the way to get a head in life or that he'll never be the head of the martells now

[Sith_Happens]

Well, it seems like Oberyn forgot to
get his head in the game.

:smalltongue:


There are so many jokes like this flying around, such as how showboating is not the way to get a head in life or that he'll never be the head of the martells now

Someone paste Oberyn's (EDIT: pre-squishing) face over Mami Tomoe's NOW.

[Dienekes]

Someone paste Oberyn's face over Mami Tomoe's NOW.

Before or after his face got Gregor'd?

[Rawhide]

Mind you. I will of course label my spoilers. But spoilers started cropping up as soon as a new episode aired. Not sure what else you'd expect them to be about.

Mainly because the spoilers could be from the episode, OR it could be from the books or somewhere else. Those who haven't read the books don't want book spoilers and they shouldn't have to risk opening the spoilers to find out.

[Sith_Happens]

Before or after his face got Gregor'd?

Before, obviously. Otherwise both sides of the joke are too obvious.

[Lizard Lord]

As someone who did not read the books I did not see that ending coming. Mostly I didn't think Oberyn would die yet as I feel I didn't get enough time to know him. After his speech to Tyrion I was starting to like the character, but only starting. He felt too new for me to be invested in the character. Heck the only reasons that I am shocked by this is that it was damn gruesome and that it seems to seal Tyrion's fate.

[Seerow]

Mainly because the spoilers could be from the episode, OR it could be from the books or somewhere else. Those who haven't read the books don't want book spoilers and they shouldn't have to risk opening the spoilers to find out.

I really wish we could just run with the assumption "Book Spoilers in spoilers, stuff that happened in the show doesn't need spoiler tags".

How many people actually read these threads immediately after a new episode comes out having not seen the episode wanting to avoid spoilers? Even if they did, they would come in and see several pages of nothing but spoiler blocks, or non-spoilered text that is vaguely alluding to spoilery things. All it does is cause a lot of headache and confusion.

It doesn't bother me so much since we have the open all spoiler button now, but still. It's a pretty dumb standard to keep all of the show stuff in spoilers.

[Grif]

I see you show folks got to that delicious part. :smallbiggrin:

[Aedilred]

I'm enjoying the way this episode has provoked more posts so far than the rest of the series put together.

Other than the Missandei/Grey Worm nonsense, I thought the episode was pretty strong. I wish some of the time spent lingering on Missandei's boobs had been spent on giving Jorah's story a bit more attention: it felt really abrupt.

Peter Dinklage and Nikolai Coster-Waldau have great chemistry. I'd happily sit through any number of scenes with the two of them together, even if they're fairly content-light like this one. They've proved an admirable substitute for the Varys/Littlefinger scenes that were often a highlight of previous seasons. I was a little sceptical of the decision to give the two of them scenes together, since in the book they have no contact during this period, and it's heartbreaking. But (unusually for a major change to the book material on the show, I think) they've really pulled it off, so kudos.

I thought the beetle-smashing conversation worked well enough. Talking about rubbish to try to distract from something stressful seems fairly realistic. And maybe the point is that not everyone does have a reason for smashing those lower on the food chain, from Orson the idiot through Gregor the brute up to Tywin the most powerful man in the world. Ultimately, they're not so different; they just do it because they can.

The duel was a low point of the books for me, I think. Not in terms of quality, just desperation. More traumatic than anything that's previously happened, and it's hard to see how anything will ever surpass it. It's one of the reasons I was a little frustrated that they didn't give Oberyn more time and better material in the show to date, to make that scene as powerful as possible. On the show, he's pretty cool. In the book, he's totally awesome. Though judging from the reaction of show-only watchers, it seems to have worked anyway.

Oh, and, just because (https://twitter.com/PedroPascal1/status/473481358556160002). :smallamused:

[Kato]

Other than the Missandei/Grey Worm nonsense, I thought the episode was pretty strong. I wish some of the time spent lingering on Missandei's boobs had been spent on giving Jorah's story a bit more attention: it felt really abrupt.

[...]

I thought the beetle-smashing conversation worked well enough. Talking about rubbish to try to distract from something stressful seems fairly realistic. And maybe the point is that not everyone does have a reason for smashing those lower on the food chain, from Orson the idiot through Gregor the brute up to Tywin the most powerful man in the world. Ultimately, they're not so different; they just do it because they can.

The duel was a low point of the books for me, I think. Not in terms of quality, just desperation. More traumatic than anything that's previously happened, and it's hard to see how anything will ever surpass it. It's one of the reasons I was a little frustrated that they didn't give Oberyn more time and better material in the show to date, to make that scene as powerful as possible. On the show, he's pretty cool. In the book, he's totally awesome. Though judging from the reaction of show-only watchers, it seems to have worked anyway.

Oh, and, just because (https://twitter.com/PedroPascal1/status/473481358556160002). :smallamused:


Yeah, I hope they don't plan on going anywhere with that Grey Worm stick... I mean, I guess I didn't actually mind seeing Missandei like that but... considering they turned her from a child into a twen it was to be expected they'd strip hr at some point... Also, I don't want to think about Unsullied's private areas more than necessary :smalleek:

Regarding the beetles... it was kind of nice. But I can't agree on Tywin being anywhere near to what people like Gregor, Joffrey, Ramsey etc are. He may be cold and calculating but between this and outright sadistic are still a few levels of evil.

What really bugs me about the Oberyn battle (except it was more gorey in the show than I like... I don't really mind it just seems.. meh, to me) is that Oberyn dies because he is an eff-ing arrogant idiot. He was really a fun character and then he gets himself killed because he's way too cocky. I guess it's a good lesson but for the sake of the Lord of Light, if you must tease your victim, make sure he won't fight back.

Finally: Haha :smallamused:

[Trixie]

I see you show folks got to that delicious part. :smallbiggrin:

You mean the 'appetiser', surely? :smallconfused::smalltongue::smallamused:


Regarding the beetles... it was kind of nice. But I can't agree on Tywin being anywhere near to what people like Gregor, Joffrey, Ramsey etc are. He may be cold and calculating but between this and outright sadistic are still a few levels of evil.

He is the man who did Rains of Castamere, Red Wedding, burned Riverlands, who told Gregor to smash child Targaryens for some petty insult he got from Mad King 20 years prior then given mutilated corpses to Robert as a gift. Not evil and sadistic, you say? :smallconfused:


What really bugs me about the Oberyn battle (except it was more gorey in the show than I like... I don't really mind it just seems.. meh, to me) is that Oberyn dies because he is an eff-ing arrogant idiot. He was really a fun character and then he gets himself killed because he's way too cocky. I guess it's a good lesson but for the sake of the Lord of Light, if you must tease your victim, make sure he won't fight back.

But that was exactly the point - Red Viper wants to avenge his murdered kin. He needed Gregor to confess who told him to kill Elia and her children. To him, the fight was just means to get just cause to go after Tywin. Killing dumb follower of orders is not enough, especially not before he spills the data on real target.

[Clertar]

It was nice to see the duel play out just like Bronn felt it would go: you can dance around, wear him down, get some hits in, but as soon as the Mountain catches you you're a goner.

[happyturtle]

I really wish we could just run with the assumption "Book Spoilers in spoilers, stuff that happened in the show doesn't need spoiler tags".

How many people actually read these threads immediately after a new episode comes out having not seen the episode wanting to avoid spoilers? Even if they did, they would come in and see several pages of nothing but spoiler blocks, or non-spoilered text that is vaguely alluding to spoilery things. All it does is cause a lot of headache and confusion.

It doesn't bother me so much since we have the open all spoiler button now, but still. It's a pretty dumb standard to keep all of the show stuff in spoilers.

Not everyone gets to see the show at the same time.

[YeOldeGrandma]

The show vs the book:

The thing that has become increasingly annoying for me as I've watched the 4th season, is how they give us these iconic scenes, such as Littlefinger murdering Lysa, or The Mountain vs The Viper. They were the high points of the book. The twists. They deserved more screen time. Period. Someone before me said it here (and I'd forgotten it was in the books, but I don't doubt it for a second): Littlefinger could have benefited greatly from a speech on how he became the way he was. The fight could've been great with Clegane shouting "Shut up!" while chopping through stable boys. It would have, if nothing else, added tension, getting us to feel that **** was about to go down.

Instead we get pointless stuff, like the Missandei - Grey Worm-thing (which I wouldn't have minded if it hadn't stolen time from what really matters. Oh, and this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hb_Y5cRtji4 (and if you read the youtube comments, you will get spoilers, so don't do that)

By the way: Aryas laugh should've been Tyrions laugh.

[AtlanteanTroll]

Not everyone gets to see the show at the same time.

That's not the point, the point is everyone knows when the new episodes come out.

[Closet_Skeleton]

People who don't see the episode should just avoid threads for a few days, its not like they have anything to add to the discussion anyway (I'm in this group myself).

Implying Sansa has slept with Littlefinger doesn't contradict the books but feels like a big change.

If you don't think Tywin is that evil from what you've already seen that should change in the next two episodes, but calling him less evil than Gregor is missing the point when everything Gregor is is just what Tywin pays him to be. If Gregor appears more evil its only because Tywin deliberately gives him opportunities to make him look worse.

The point of the 'beetle speech' from my interpretation isn't that there are some sick and nasty people out there, the moron isn't an allegory for Gregor or Roose or Tywin, he's an allegory for god. This episode wasn't about people being evil, it was about the cruelties of fate. Tyrion isn't asking about why people are cruel, I think he understands that, he's asking why the world is so full of death. It wasn't the best speech but its hard to have Tyrion say anything interesting just after he's said the 'I have been on trial my entire life for being a dwarf' line that his entire character arc was building up to for four seasons.

'What if God is just a giant moron' is the theme of the episode.

[Aedilred]

If you don't think Tywin is that evil from what you've already seen that should change in the next two episodes, but calling him less evil than Gregor is missing the point when everything Gregor is is just what Tywin pays him to be. If Gregor appears more evil its only because Tywin deliberately gives him opportunities to make him look worse.
Up to a point, I think. Gregor would be an awful person even without Tywin; he burned Sandor as a child, and in the book it was also implied he'd killed their sister, and possibly their father. While some of his actions in the sack of King's Landing were instructed, the rape and murder of Elia was on his own initiative (and Tywin, again in the book, indicated that he wasn't fully aware of Gregor's proclivities at that point). Some of the stories about him, like the murder/rape of the tavern family told by Chiswyck (book again) are again all Gregor, rather than Tywin, and back in the second season of the show Tywin reprimanded Gregor for gratuitous torture in Harrenhal.

But it's certainly true that Tywin enables this behaviour, protects him from the consequences of it, and is fully prepared to use it as a tool (and not just as a threat). Were it not for Tywin, Gregor would have been no less evil, but he would almost certainly have done less evil, as someone would have stepped in to stop him. You're right that just because Tywin isn't getting his hands dirty directly doesn't make him any less of a monster.

[Closet_Skeleton]

If Ned Stark had Gregor Clegane in his army, he'd have executed him (heck, Stannis probably would have gotten rid of him for ruining discipline) and his son Robb had Karstark killed for less. If Tywin was truly shocked by Gregor going 'further than ordered' he'd have sent the Mountain's head to Dorne before Robert had a chance to crown himself.

Tywin could have instilled such fear of him in his men that they wouldn't dare rape a woman without him ordering it, instead he keeps rapists around to direct fear of him to other ends. If Gregor was a disloyal vassal the people would be singing 'the Cleganes of where-ever'.

[Rawhide]

I really wish we could just run with the assumption "Book Spoilers in spoilers, stuff that happened in the show doesn't need spoiler tags".

How many people actually read these threads immediately after a new episode comes out having not seen the episode wanting to avoid spoilers? Even if they did, they would come in and see several pages of nothing but spoiler blocks, or non-spoilered text that is vaguely alluding to spoilery things. All it does is cause a lot of headache and confusion.

It doesn't bother me so much since we have the open all spoiler button now, but still. It's a pretty dumb standard to keep all of the show stuff in spoilers.

Not everyone gets to see the show at the same time.

[Kato]

He is the man who did Rains of Castamere, Red Wedding, burned Riverlands, who told Gregor to smash child Targaryens for some petty insult he got from Mad King 20 years prior then given mutilated corpses to Robert as a gift. Not evil and sadistic, you say? :smallconfused:
Your point? Most of this was done in order to secure his position or get rid of enemies. I'd guess most of the Red wedding was down to Frey and Bolton and Tywin merely took advantage of the fact that his strongest enemy would be dead. I can not all see Tywin being the one to order Robb's head being sewn to Grey Wind or any of the other more crazy things happening. Burning the Riverlands was - if it even was his order and not Clegane being... Clegane, but that's likely enough - s strategic choice to weaken his enemies. The Targaryen children were heirs to the throne and thus could have lead to a revolt in the future. Killing children may not be nice but it certainly wasn't done merely out of spite. And again, I'd be surprised if he ordered the raping. That seems much more like Clegane enjoying himself.
Admittedly, keeping Clegane around is debatable, but from his point he likely is just more useful than troublesome.



But that was exactly the point - Red Viper wants to avenge his murdered kin. He needed Gregor to confess who told him to kill Elia and her children. To him, the fight was just means to get just cause to go after Tywin. Killing dumb follower of orders is not enough, especially not before he spills the data on real target.
Obviously. But that doesn't excuse him for being so damn careless about it. "Oh, he is lying down, I am sure nothing bad could possibly happen and he can not be smart enough to fake it and waiting for a chance to attack. It's not like the guy spends every waking moment murdering people." Idiot. :smallmad:

[Rawhide]

So yes, if everyone can make an effort to label your spoilers, even when replying to someone else, that would be great.

[Legato Endless]

Tywin isn't a sadist. He's the furthest thing from it. He's cold. Ramsay, Joffrey and the Mountain torture and rape because they enjoy it. It consumes them. The action is the point, they're hedonists with infernal desires. Tywin is calculating. He was an incredibly good steward of the realm before Robert's Rebellion. Tywin is methodical. The Red Wedding won him Tye war of the five Kings. The reaving of the Riverlands lured Catelyn's oafish brother into doing exactly what he wanted. Killing the Targaryen children secured assurances of loyalty and diminished a dynastic threat. Granted, he and Eddard were both pretty silly letting Robert of all people take the throne. Tywin is hideously ruthlessly evil, but he's a very different kind of monster than who he's being compared too. He's the type who will do anything to protect his family's holdings and prestige.

[Trixie]

Your point? Most of this was done in order to secure his position or get rid of enemies. I'd guess most of the Red wedding was down to Frey and Bolton and Tywin merely took advantage of the fact that his strongest enemy would be dead. I can not all see Tywin being the one to order Robb's head being sewn to Grey Wind or any of the other more crazy things happening. Burning the Riverlands was - if it even was his order and not Clegane being... Clegane, but that's likely enough - s strategic choice to weaken his enemies. The Targaryen children were heirs to the throne and thus could have lead to a revolt in the future.

Admittedly, keeping Clegane around is debatable, but from his point he likely is just more useful than troublesome.
And? All of this makes him merely competent. Not 'not evil', he orders more evil deeds done than everyone else combined. All that Freys, Boltons, Cleganes did falls squarely on him as he gave the orders and never punished them for anything, indicating he approved. More than approved, rained gifts on them.


Killing children may not be nice but it certainly wasn't done merely out of spite. And again, I'd be surprised if he ordered the raping. That seems much more like Clegane enjoying himself.
Um, remember what he did to Tyrion and Tysha? The very reason why Tyrion is emotionally damaged to only seek out whores now? How wasn't that evil and sadistic to boot? In fact, I can't wait for Tyrion's little speech recalling that if it will be shown in the series, that is :smallwink:

[Legato Endless]

Tyrion is different though. There's a ton of baggage there. Tywin is monstrously spiteful to his son certainly, but that's markedly different from how he treats everyone else.

[Kato]

And? All of this makes him merely competent. Not 'not evil', he orders more evil deeds done than everyone else combined. All that Freys, Boltons, Cleganes did falls squarely on him as he gave the orders and never punished them for anything, indicating he approved. More than approved, rained gifts on them.
I don't think I ever said he wasn't evil. But as Legato said, between "evil" and "sadist" is still a difference. (Though, at times, "evil" is a relative term. But Tywin is nothing if not self-centered, so yeah, he works almost exclusively towards his own benefit.)
As I said for Clegane, his treatment of his useful, "more evil" allies is debatable but not killing a sadist still doesn't make you one. Even if further discussion into this matter could obviously be very lengthy.



Um, remember what he did to Tyrion and Tysha? The very reason why Tyrion is emotionally damaged to only seek out whores now? How wasn't that evil and sadistic to boot? In fact, I can't wait for Tyrion's little speech recalling that if it will be shown in the series, that is :smallwink:
Again, I'll agree with Legato, but you are right: His feelings for Tyrion and his actions towards him are very different from his perspective on about anyone else. Tyrion has proven the most useful of his children and most alike to his father and at times I thought Tywin would acknowledge that but... While one can clearly debate Tywin's motives back then it could still be considered a very harsh lesson, but I'm willing to admit it was probably fueled by his dislike as well at that point.

[Seerow]

Not everyone gets to see the show at the same time.

Yeah but this:


That's not the point, the point is everyone knows when the new episodes come out.

Having a thread made up of 100% spoiler blocks just makes no sense to me. I could see maybe a 2-3 post buffer of spoiler blocks in case someone forgets a new episode just aired. But if after 2-3 posts of warning "Hey there's a new episode out, that's what's going to be discussed", anyone who hasn't watched the episode should know to get out by then.

[Trixie]

As I said for Clegane, his treatment of his useful, "more evil" allies is debatable but not killing a sadist still doesn't make you one. Even if further discussion into this matter could obviously be very lengthy.

Again, I'll agree with Legato, but you are right: His feelings for Tyrion and his actions towards him are very different from his perspective on about anyone else. Tyrion has proven the most useful of his children and most alike to his father and at times I thought Tywin would acknowledge that but... While one can clearly debate Tywin's motives back then it could still be considered a very harsh lesson, but I'm willing to admit it was probably fueled by his dislike as well at that point.

Tywin is pretty much law enforcement in the kingdom. Him keeping Clegane and Freys around when he should be executing them makes him as guilty as they are, even if he didn't gave them the orders (which he did).

As for Tyrion, you're calling ordering mass rape by pretty much entire castle garrison a 'harsh lesson'? :smallconfused: Oookay. I guess I'll just have to disagree.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Having a thread made up of 100% spoiler blocks just makes no sense to me. I could see maybe a 2-3 post buffer of spoiler blocks in case someone forgets a new episode just aired. But if after 2-3 posts of warning "Hey there's a new episode out, that's what's going to be discussed", anyone who hasn't watched the episode should know to get out by then.
Eh, it works aplenty fine for a lot of threads I've seen. General Anime Discussion, Dresden Files, Doctor Who (to name a few). I guess the forum doesn't get enough traction to have a new thread for each episode.

[happyturtle]

Yeah but this:



Having a thread made up of 100% spoiler blocks just makes no sense to me. I could see maybe a 2-3 post buffer of spoiler blocks in case someone forgets a new episode just aired. But if after 2-3 posts of warning "Hey there's a new episode out, that's what's going to be discussed", anyone who hasn't watched the episode should know to get out by then.

Not everyone gets to see the show at the same time. This will remain true no matter how much people wish otherwise, and no one wishes this were true more than the people who don't get to see the show on its first airing date.

If the thread is going to discuss spoilers without putting them in spoiler blocks, it needs to say so in the thread title. If it doesn't say so in the thread title, then use spoiler blocks.

I think Tywin is a sociopath - no feelings, no empathy, just implacable purpose. Whereas Joffery, Ramsey Snow, and Gregor Clegane are sadists, getting pleasure out of causing pain and misery.

[AtlanteanTroll]

Not everyone gets to see the show at the same time. This will remain true no matter how much people wish otherwise, and no one wishes this were true more than the people who don't get to see the show on its first airing date.
And yet everyone knows, or should know, new episodes air on Sundays 9 PM EST (AKA: Mondays at 1:00 GMT).

So what's the point?

[Seerow]

Not everyone gets to see the show at the same time. This will remain true no matter how much people wish otherwise, and no one wishes this were true more than the people who don't get to see the show on its first airing date.

If the thread is going to discuss spoilers without putting them in spoiler blocks, it needs to say so in the thread title. If it doesn't say so in the thread title, then use spoiler blocks.

That's not the point. The point is how many people are coming into the episode discussion thread after a new episode they have not yet seen has aired, expecting to see discussion on previous episodes?

In the post you quoted I even said that a buffer of a few spoiler posts to remind people "Hey, new episode is out, get out of the thread!" is a good idea. But after that point, there isn't going to be any discussion for the person who hasn't seen the new episode to read either way. What benefit is there to putting the rest of the thread in spoilers for the sake of a rare individual who hasn't seen the episode and insists on keeping up with the thread checking every post just in case something non-spoiler related is being discussed?



Either way, this is the last post I'm making on the subject. I don't know why I let myself keep getting caught up in this. I discovered a long time ago GitP's spoiler policy is borderline absurd, trying to get anyone to accept change at this point is an exercise in futility.

[Legato Endless]

Eh, it works aplenty fine for a lot of threads I've seen. General Anime Discussion, Dresden Files, Doctor Who (to name a few). I guess the forum doesn't get enough traction to have a new thread for each episode.

General Anime Discussion is a different animal though. That references hundreds of series, some of which people haven't heard of, may see in a year, or haven't even decided about. You have to spoiler there because it's like talking about the books around lay people. You don't explain the Red Wedding around people who might read the series at some point. A dedicated thread is different. Pretty much everyone is in consensus over the subject matter.

Dr. Who is also out there, because after several decades it's gotten a pretty huge amount of detritus that not everyone is involved in. Dresden I actually avoid looking in most of the time precisely because I haven't finished the last two books yet.

We need an established baseline then. At what point is something allowed to be discussed in the open air? Can I talk about the Red Wedding since it isn't in the current season? Is the subversion with Ned being granted clemency to take the black off limits? What about the most popular theory of Jon Snow's Parentage? I'll honor the general request, but I think this should be clarified. Are we spoiler tagging everything this season?

[Trixie]

And yet everyone knows, or should know, new episodes air on Sundays 9 PM EST (AKA: Mondays at 1:00 GMT)

You just disappeared 95% of the world.


In the post you quoted I even said that a buffer of a few spoiler posts to remind people "Hey, new episode is out, get out of the thread!" is a good idea. But after that point, there isn't going to be any discussion for the person who hasn't seen the new episode to read either way.

Which would work if the forum directed you with unerring accuracy to first unread post, which it does not. And the person in question might want to continue discussion they were already in. Should release on new episode mean instant death to all ongoing discussions for everyone who doesn't live in one country?

[Ramza00]

I think Tywin is a sociopath - no feelings, no empathy, just implacable purpose. Whereas Joffery, Ramsey Snow, and Gregor Clegane are sadists, getting pleasure out of causing pain and misery.

I agree with Tywin rest in spoilers.

possibly being a sociopath but I want to make sure we are talking about the same thing. I do not like using the following words for most people confuse the two and think they are equivalent.

A psychopath is someone who was born that way is not able to feel normal empathy like a normal person could. Joffrey, Ramsey Snow, and Gregor Clegane are psychopaths.
A sociopath is someone who was not born that way but suffered trauma/high amounts of stress in his life. Particularly his/her early life during childhood. Because of this they become much more cold and more more morally flexible as a survival/coping mechanism. Sociopaths are still capable of feeling empathy with a normal human being but this empathy is greatly reduced and almost always the empathy is turned off as a default mechanism. They have actually found some of the genes that could produce such behavior and often in the media these genes are called warrior genes. The Hound is a sociopaths, Tywin is a possible sociopath, Tyrion and Arya maybe becoming sociopaths.

I am not sure about Roose Bolton being a high functioning psychopath or him being a sociopath. Now one thing is vast importance is you can be cold and heartless without being a sociopath. The difference between a sociopath and a cold and heartless person is whether they do things out of instinct using their unconscious mind or are they using their rational mind and learned behavior to do what is most rational and in their best interest even if it screws with someone that is not their selves.

One easy way you can tell the difference between a psychopath and a sociopath is how they treat animals generally. Joffrey a psychopath cut open a cat just because he could with sadistic glee, the cat did nothing to him, it didn't ruin any of his clothes, caused a fire, scratch him and cause him pain. No Joffrey just killed the cat because he could and killing and making others feel pain brings pleasure to Joffrey.

Another way you can tell the difference between a psychopath and a sociopath is one will take credit and darn the consequences (the psychopath) and the other has no problems using Aliases and Proxies (the sociopath). Ramsay Bolton will want people to know when he performs torture who did it so they will cower and fear him, he wants the recognition for him recognition is power. Tywin Lannister understands how dangerous this urge is, he purposefully uses proxies such as the Freys and Gregor Clegane to perform the blow so he can deny connection later and thus has the flexibility of being blameless and thus safe. While both psychopaths and sociopaths hate being laughed at they will respond differently. A psychopath will respond instantly and make sure you are punished right NOW at being laughed at, they will hurt you or belittle you so you know who is boss; a sociopath on the other hand will be okay with doing a fake smile followed by coming up with a plan and ordering Bronn or some other henchman to deal with that annoyance.

Because of the similarity of the words psychopath and sociopath and people not sure what they mean and use the words interchangeably I rather in my own personal usage use the words psychopath when describing someone like Joffrey and use the word warrior gene to describe someone like the Hound.

[AtlanteanTroll]

You just disappeared 95% of the world.
Maybe with 9 PM EST, but Monday's at 1:00 GMT should cover literally everyone.

[Kato]

Tywin is pretty much law enforcement in the kingdom. Him keeping Clegane and Freys around when he should be executing them makes him as guilty as they are, even if he didn't gave them the orders (which he did).
Depends on what actions you refer to... And being a neglectful law enforcer is still something else than a sadist. In my eyes, anyway.


As for Tyrion, you're calling ordering mass rape by pretty much entire castle garrison a 'harsh lesson'? :smallconfused: Oookay. I guess I'll just have to disagree.
Well, clearly I was referring to a harsh lesson for Tyrion, not the other party. While I can see your point more strongly here than in most other actions, from a story perspective and from Tywin's perspective Tyrion is the person who matters and the other was merely a mean to an end.




A psychopath is someone who was born that way is not able to feel normal empathy like a normal person could. Joffrey, Ramsey Snow, and Gregor Clegane are psychopaths.
A sociopath is someone who was not born that way but suffered trauma/high amounts of stress in his life.
It would be really cool if you didn't state your personal interpretation of medical terms as facts... unless you have something reliable to back this particular definition up.

[Ramza00]

It would be really cool if you didn't state your personal interpretation of medical terms as facts... unless you have something reliable to back this particular definition up.

While they are often conflated they are not the same term. That said language is a constantly evolving construct so trying to stop the corruption of language is useless (and often counterproductive, for language is designed to communicate and thus when new ideas are created we often need new language to express them).


There are various contemporary usages of the term. Robert Hare, who may believe that biological factors are predominant in causing psychopathy,[142] claimed in a 1999 popular science book that sociopathy and psychopathy are often used interchangeably, but in some cases the term sociopathy is preferred because it is less likely than is psychopathy to be confused with psychosis, whereas in other cases which term is used may "reflect the user's views on the origins and determinates of the disorder". Hare contended that the term sociopathy is preferred by those that see the causes as due to social factors and early environment, and the term psychopathy preferred by those who believe that there are psychological, biological, and genetic factors involved in addition to environmental factors.[78] Hare also suggests another possible distinction: he defines psychopathy as not having a sense of empathy or morality, but sociopathy as only differing in sense of right and wrong from the average person.[143][144][verification needed]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy#Etymology


And don't you dare get in a debate of the validity of wikipedia. This is the internet and I am not going to waste time arguing about source A vs source B. My time is too precious to get involved in stupid arguments.

Oh and psychopathy and sociopathy are not medical terms, at least not now. The medical community hates both those terms for they are by their very nature not precise and thus not medical. The medical community likes the term Antisocial Personality Disorder for it can be made with a precise definition. Now Antisocial Personality Disorder is a very general term meaning a person has low or no empathy and it economas psychopathy, sociopathy, as well as sometimes encompassing other non medical terms such as narcisstic (some narcissists suffer from antisocial personality disorder). A medical practitioner such as a psychiatrist doesn't care about the general ways someone can get the disease, they want to deal with the patient in front of them, and general behavior groups of people have is a distraction from dealing with their patient.

[Kato]

And don't you dare get in a debate of the validity of wikipedia. This is the internet and I am not going to waste time arguing about source A vs source B. My time is too precious to get involved in stupid arguments.

Please, calm down. I'm not going to argue about the validity of wikipedia unless I either know it is wrong or the information seems extremely suspicious. I am however going to argue that the definition made in "a popular science book" is sufficient for it to be accepted as general truth, also considering the very same page at the top lists sociopathy as a synonym for psychopathy. If language gets to the point where both are clearly distinguished Also, I'll assume you read the book in question and didn't base your other statements on the conditions difference on your personal views.
Though, I will apologize for claiming it's a medical term, honest error on my side and it takes the sting out of the issue a bit.

[ChaosArchon]

So anyone know if we get to see Tyrion's POV next episode or will it be all Night's Watch focused? Apparently there's some big battle coming up thats gonna take up most of the episode.

[JustPlayItLoud]

So anyone know if we get to see Tyrion's POV next episode or will it be all Night's Watch focused? Apparently there's some big battle coming up thats gonna take up most of the episode.

First let me specify that I haven't read the books past Game of Thrones and I avoid book spoilers so everything I say is based on speculation from what I see in the show and discuss with other non-book friends. I somehow predicted all the major players in the dramatic events of Joffrey's wedding just from being observant and having watched episodes multiple times so sometimes I just get lucky.

Honestly I feel like it could go either way. I don't believe for a second Tyrion actually gets killed. I read an interview a while ago where GRRM mentioned writing Tyrion and Arya were his favorite parts. Say what you will but I doubt he'll kill of his favorites. So the two big things looming are Tyrion's fate and the crows v. wildlings scenario. I imagine each of these two things will take about an episode each, with some small bits in each to setup mini-cliffhangers for the other characters. I imagine there will be at least some small but significant bit with Danaerys.

I think the order will depend on which of the two major events will be most dramatic. I personally predict Tyrion will be next episode. I don't see GRRM using some crazy deus ex machina type event to get Tyrion pardoned, so maybe he escapes. Maybe that's why Bronn has been absent. Maybe even Jaime helps him as he seems to be growingly increasingly frustrated with his father and would probably prefer to be more like his brother than like Tywin. Now that Tywin has defended the realm and isn't in active war and has brought relative piece to the realm I think now is about the time he'll be getting so comfortable that he'll get himself killed relatively soon. He's freakishly cunning, yes, but it seems like a theme in ASOIAF is that treachery eventually catches up to older men. It probably won't be now, but I imagine he dies a rather ignoble death before midway through the next season.

Overall the battle at Castle Black will likely have for more wide reaching consequences, but Tyrion's fate will be more dramatic I think so I think the season will end with Castle Black.

[Trixie]

Well, clearly I was referring to a harsh lesson for Tyrion, not the other party. While I can see your point more strongly here than in most other actions, from a story perspective and from Tywin's perspective Tyrion is the person who matters and the other was merely a mean to an end.

So, um... How stating 'but he was only sadistically evil sometimes, as a means to an end, and normally doesn't kill random people, if he doesn't think he can get away with it, at least' prove he is not sadistically evil, exactly? :smallconfused:


So anyone know if we get to see Tyrion's POV next episode

I bet they're saving Tyrion for last episode :smallamused: Only baseless speculation though.

[Flickerdart]

I bet they're saving Tyrion for last episode :smallamused: Only baseless speculation though.
Nah, nothing ever happens in the final episode of each season. All the good stuff goes down in Episode 9.

[Dienekes]

So, um... How stating 'but he was only sadistically evil sometimes, as a means to an end, and normally doesn't kill random people, if he doesn't think he can get away with it, at least' prove he is not sadistically evil, exactly? :smallconfused:

You see, I can't really think of a time his evil seemed to stem from sadistic urges. To me, all his actions seem more like actions of a self centered and evil Ender Wiggin. When he feels an action must be done he doesn't just do it, he utterly destroys it. He goes so far the problem will never happen again.

A house rebels? Joffrey would whine about it and send a large army in a straight fight and try to kill everything in the most direct path. Gregor would ravish the land torturing his way to satisfy his urges for destruction. But Tywin will martial his resources think of the best response for the situation and use it. If the other house is powerful, he will try to barter with them and sue for peace (as he wanted to use Ned for). If they're weaker and made the mistake of thinking he was weak, he will destroy their line so thoroughly no one will think of rebelling for another twenty years.

Your son marries a common whore. Tywin sees this as the need for Tyrion to learn a few lessons. Lesson 1) No one will love you for you, your entire romantic identity is to find a suitable match to increase the power of the family. Lesson 2) You do not disobey the Tywin. Lesson 3) whores are to be used, paid, and left.
And in a strange way, Tyrion learned Tywin's lessons. At least in the books. Tyrion always knew in the back of his mind Shae didn't love him, and the majority of his actions are in some way motivated to prove his worth, several times specifically to Tywin.

Now, I'm not saying Tywin is not a repulsive, vile monster. Oh yes, he is. He deserves to die a hundred painful deaths. It's just that he doesn't seem to be a sadist. He doesn't take pleasure from his vile actions, he just does them because they are the most direct method to obtaining his goals.

Mind you, this is nitpicking your major point over the inclusion of one misapplied word. Your major point is accurate. Tywin is a monster.

[Otomodachi]

You see, I can't really think of a time his evil seemed to stem from sadistic urges. To me, all his actions seem more like actions of a self centered and evil Ender Wiggin. When he feels an action must be done he doesn't just do it, he utterly destroys it. He goes so far the problem will never happen again.

A house rebels? Joffrey would whine about it and send a large army in a straight fight and try to kill everything in the most direct path. Gregor would ravish the land torturing his way to satisfy his urges for destruction. But Tywin will martial his resources think of the best response for the situation and use it. If the other house is powerful, he will try to barter with them and sue for peace (as he wanted to use Ned for). If they're weaker and made the mistake of thinking he was weak, he will destroy their line so thoroughly no one will think of rebelling for another twenty years.

Your son marries a common whore. Tywin sees this as the need for Tyrion to learn a few lessons. Lesson 1) No one will love you for you, your entire romantic identity is to find a suitable match to increase the power of the family. Lesson 2) You do not disobey the Tywin. Lesson 3) whores are to be used, paid, and left.
And in a strange way, Tyrion learned Tywin's lessons. At least in the books. Tyrion always knew in the back of his mind Shae didn't love him, and the majority of his actions are in some way motivated to prove his worth, several times specifically to Tywin.

Now, I'm not saying Tywin is not a repulsive, vile monster. Oh yes, he is. He deserves to die a hundred painful deaths. It's just that he doesn't seem to be a sadist. He doesn't take pleasure from his vile actions, he just does them because they are the most direct method to obtaining his goals.

Mind you, this is nitpicking your major point over the inclusion of one misapplied word. Your major point is accurate. Tywin is a monster.

Twyin-

My personal theory is that Tyrion is actually the son of the Mad King, Aerys. Tywin's treatment of Tyrion throughout his life was NOT to make him a better Lannister. It was to punish him, and punish him, and punish him. He HATES Tyrion. What can he do? Admit he got cuckolded and banish the bastard? No, because being laughed at is Tywin's GREATEST fear. He is an evil version of Batman- he deliberately crafted a persona, with the intention of instilling fear. Tywin is a monster.

Episodes 9 and 10

Will be Battle of the Wall, and THEN Tyrion's stuff. A huge battle is a better climax, on TV at least, and episode 9 is where the climax belongs. Tyrion's stuff is more likely to provoke long-term discussion and theorizing; that's what you want in a season finale.

Sansa's bull-puckey in episode 8-

What the hell. So, we get Sansa just telling anyone who'll listen "Oh I am Sansa Stark by the way, haaaaaai!" And then she comes out with a new hair colour. I don't know what the desired impression was to be other than "SAY HELLO TO EVIL SANSA SHE IS WAY COOL." I don't mind changing stuff from the books; I mind changing things from the book and doing it badly. This whole extended scene was, in my opinion, poorly executed. Sansa's entire arc, for me, has just ground to a halt. And I HATE Sansa Stark, I should be one of the people who's *excited* to see her not being useless.

Grey Worm's stuff is dumb. No further talkies needed from me. :)

[Dienekes]

Twyin-

My personal theory is that Tyrion is actually the son of the Mad King, Aerys. Tywin's treatment of Tyrion throughout his life was NOT to make him a better Lannister. It was to punish him, and punish him, and punish him. He HATES Tyrion. What can he do? Admit he got cuckolded and banish the bastard? No, because being laughed at is Tywin's GREATEST fear. He is an evil version of Batman- he deliberately crafted a persona, with the intention of instilling fear. Tywin is a monster.


I have heard this theory, but it doesn't really hold water for me. Not saying it's impossible, but if true Tywin could have discretely had the creature killed as a baby easily. I also doubt he would give him power as Hand of the King if it were true.

Besides as Genna said, of all Tywin's children, his true son is Tyrion. They're too similar in the ways they think and manipulate and play the game. The show doesn't show it, but Tyrion is not above casually having people murdered if he thinks it's necessary (like that one singer who knew who Shae was).

[Math_Mage]

My personal theory is that Tyrion is actually the son of the Mad King, Aerys. Tywin's treatment of Tyrion throughout his life was NOT to make him a better Lannister. It was to punish him, and punish him, and punish him. He HATES Tyrion. What can he do? Admit he got cuckolded and banish the bastard? No, because being laughed at is Tywin's GREATEST fear. He is an evil version of Batman- he deliberately crafted a persona, with the intention of instilling fear. Tywin is a monster.
If anything, it's the other way around, and Tyrion is Tywin's only true son. You gotta admit Jaime and Cersei have a lot more in common with the Targaryen line than Tyrion does.


Sansa's bull-puckey in episode 8-

What the hell. So, we get Sansa just telling anyone who'll listen "Oh I am Sansa Stark by the way, haaaaaai!" And then she comes out with a new hair colour. I don't know what the desired impression was to be other than "SAY HELLO TO EVIL SANSA SHE IS WAY COOL." I don't mind changing stuff from the books; I mind changing things from the book and doing it badly. This whole extended scene was, in my opinion, poorly executed. Sansa's entire arc, for me, has just ground to a halt. And I HATE Sansa Stark, I should be one of the people who's *excited* to see her not being useless.
Keep in mind that Sansa's arc was written the way it was in part because GRRM had to press the 'pause' button on Westeros for two books. The show won't have as much of this because it can see the gaping pacing hole coming and adjust around it--hence some arcs already being in books 4/5 while the main events of 3 are still happening. So accelerating Sansa's growth is reasonable. I do wish they'd kept the natural-born daughter alias instead of the niece alias--the books themselves point out why the former makes more sense.

[Legato Endless]

Twyin-

My personal theory is that Tyrion is actually the son of the Mad King, Aerys. Tywin's treatment of Tyrion throughout his life was NOT to make him a better Lannister. It was to punish him, and punish him, and punish him. He HATES Tyrion. What can he do? Admit he got cuckolded and banish the bastard? No, because being laughed at is Tywin's GREATEST fear. He is an evil version of Batman- he deliberately crafted a persona, with the intention of instilling fear. Tywin is a monster.


I can easily see why people would think this especially considering the Mad King's lust for Joanna, but it would seriously bother me as it undermines a fundamental part of Tywin and Tyrion's relationship, Tywin's denial of his trueborn son. Tywin hates Tyrion. Hates him for killing his wife, hates him for being a dwarf, hates him for shaking the family name, and above all, will not face that this ugly little humiliating imp is by far the only one of his children that really resembles him. That's the whole point when Jaime's Aunt talks about Tyrion being his father's son. Honestly, if Aeris fathered any children with Joanna, its probably the elder twins. I don't really subscribe to it, but Cersei does display a lot of typical negative Targaryen traits. She's arrogant, blindly willful, incestuous, has a fascination with flame. Horribly incompetent with the usage of power. Granted, that might be taking too much from Barristan's mentioning the certain liberties the Mad King took during the undressing at Tywin's wedding.

[Otomodachi]

I can easily see why people would think this especially considering the Mad King's lust for Joanna, but it would seriously bother me as it undermines a fundamental part of Tywin and Tyrion's relationship, Tywin's denial of his trueborn son. Tywin hates Tyrion. Hates him for killing his wife, hates him for being a dwarf, hates him for shaking the family name, and above all, will not face that this ugly little humiliating imp is by far the only one of his children that really resembles him. That's the whole point when Jaime's Aunt talks about Tyrion being his father's son. Honestly, if Aeris fathered any children with Joanna, its probably the elder twins. I don't really subscribe to it, but Cersei does display a lot of typical negative Targaryen traits. She's arrogant, blindly willful, incestuous, has a fascination with flame. Horribly incompetent with the usage of power. Granted, that might be taking too much from Barristan's mentioning the certain liberties the Mad King took during the undressing at Tywin's wedding.

My thoughts on similarities between Tyrion and Tywin-

Personally I don't see that much resemblance. They're both smart, and they both have a willingness to kill. That covers a lot of characters. For me, though, I find Tywin's insecurity to be his defining trait. Like I said before, from MY read, everything EVERYTHING Tywin does stems from a fear of being mocked or disrespected. Tyrion has OWNED his flaw. I don't feel that it rules him, his dwarf-ness, the way it does with Tywin. In other words, Tywin is reacting to the world, Tyrion is ACTING on it.

As for the other stuff, it's not worth arguing for/against in my mind cuz this is just pure theory stuff. :) I would say, for me, the "Tywin's relationship with his trueborn son" isn't vital to me as part of the narrative. "Tywin's sad, miserable existence as a genius jerk-wad who doesn't get anything he wants because he poisoned his own life" is interesting enough to keep me satisfied. How did Joanna die? It's, again to my read, about as deliberately vague as Lyanna's death. And I just don't trust vague. ;) In this interpretation, too, Jaime becomes the valonquar to Cersei (8 minutes older!) and I prefer the impact that'd have on Jaime's character arc. Jaime Lannister- the guy that always gets to choose between a turd, or a turd with a peanut in it. ;)

EDIT- the Sansa stuff

I get what you're saying, Math_Mage. Characters have to grow; I'm not against it. But, I don't care the format; having a character suddenly start acting smart over the course of (this is how it felt for me) two episodes... the dramatic dark-hair reveal, maybe I'm too invested in tropes but this all screams "HELLO I AM EVIL SANSA AND DEFINITELY NOT AN AUTHOR INSERT" to me. *shrug* It just didn't work for me.

[Dienekes]

My thoughts on similarities between Tyrion and Tywin-

Personally I don't see that much resemblance. They're both smart, and they both have a willingness to kill. That covers a lot of characters. For me, though, I find Tywin's insecurity to be his defining trait. Like I said before, from MY read, everything EVERYTHING Tywin does stems from a fear of being mocked or disrespected. Tyrion has OWNED his flaw. I don't feel that it rules him, his dwarf-ness, the way it does with Tywin. In other words, Tywin is reacting to the world, Tyrion is ACTING on it.

As for the other stuff, it's not worth arguing for/against in my mind cuz this is just pure theory stuff. :) I would say, for me, the "Tywin's relationship with his trueborn son" isn't vital to me as part of the narrative. "Tywin's sad, miserable existence as a genius jerk-wad who doesn't get anything he wants because he poisoned his own life" is interesting enough to keep me satisfied. How did Joanna die? It's, again to my read, about as deliberately vague as Lyanna's death. And I just don't trust vague. ;) In this interpretation, too, Jaime becomes the valonquar to Cersei (8 minutes older!) and I prefer the impact that'd have on Jaime's character arc. Jaime Lannister- the guy that always gets to choose between a turd, or a turd with a peanut in it. ;)

EDIT- the Sansa stuff

I get what you're saying, Math_Mage. Characters have to grow; I'm not against it. But, I don't care the format; having a character suddenly start acting smart over the course of (this is how it felt for me) two episodes... the dramatic dark-hair reveal, maybe I'm too invested in tropes but this all screams "HELLO I AM EVIL SANSA AND DEFINITELY NOT AN AUTHOR INSERT" to me. *shrug* It just didn't work for me.

Really? Because, despite Tyrion's speech on shielding yourself with your weaknesses (great advice), he seldom lives up to it. He is embittered by it, blames his failings upon it, blames the fact he cannot get his father's respect upon it. He really does use it as a shield, not from everyone else but from his own responsibility in his actions. Now that's a bit harsh, and honestly his dwarfism has hurt him, but he does play that card a lot when faced with problems, a lot of which he created through his stubbornness and personality more than his height.

Honestly the only real differences I see in their personalities (other than level of acceptable evil, and as of the last couple books that's changing for Tyrion anyway) is that Tywin hides his insecurities with harsh looks, while Tyrion does it with a joke. The insecurities are definitely still there though. As is the desire to prove themselves as the biggest, smartest bastard in every room they walk in. Which is really key to both their characters that lust for further respect and prominence.

As to Sansa
Ehh. The books had her going down this path as well, figuring out Petyr's plans and rolling with them. Honestly, I've been waiting for her to start taking a more active role in the books for quite some time now. I've always thought of her as the most boring character with the most interesting chapters (as opposed to Bran, an interesting character with chapters that move so slow a slug passed them by). Sure, this costume change is a bit less subtle than the books, which is pretty par for the course.

As to revealing herself to the Vale, I'll wait to see what they do with it. But I'm with you that the change has me on edge.

[Grif]

Twyin-

My personal theory is that Tyrion is actually the son of the Mad King, Aerys. Tywin's treatment of Tyrion throughout his life was NOT to make him a better Lannister. It was to punish him, and punish him, and punish him. He HATES Tyrion. What can he do? Admit he got cuckolded and banish the bastard? No, because being laughed at is Tywin's GREATEST fear. He is an evil version of Batman- he deliberately crafted a persona, with the intention of instilling fear. Tywin is a monster.



Wait, wait, wait. Hold on right there. Wasn't it explicitly stated that Tyrion's birth was the cause of Joanna's death and the fact that she died giving birth to a dwarf was just an additional slap to the Tywin's face? It has been mentioned many times that Tywin wasn't the same man after Joanna died, and Tyrion himself knew his father disliked/despised him precisely because he isn't the Lannister he wanted and he directly caused the death of his one love.

I mean, say what you will about Aerys, but I don't think he's the womanising kind. (His sons may be more open. Something, something Lyanna Stark.)

[Legato Endless]

Wait, wait, wait. Hold on right there. Wasn't it explicitly stated that Tyrion's birth was the cause of Joanna's death and the fact that she died giving birth to a dwarf was just an additional slap to the Tywin's face? It has been mentioned many times that Tywin wasn't the same man after Joanna died, and Tyrion himself knew his father disliked/despised him precisely because he isn't the Lannister he wanted and he directly caused the death of his one love.

I mean, say what you will about Aerys, but I don't think he's the womanising kind. (His sons may be more open. Something, something Lyanna Stark.)

Storm of Swords Chapter 38 does indeed state this. It's hinted on much earlier, Cersei pretty much straight out tells him you should have died instead of her.

[Otomodachi]

Storm of Swords Chapter 38 does indeed state this. It's hinted on much earlier, Cersei pretty much straight out tells him you should have died instead of her.

Unreliable narrator...?

Isn't it from the mouth of Tywin and Cersei, respectively?

[Legato Endless]

Unreliable narrator...?

Isn't it from the mouth of Tywin and Cersei, respectively?

Who's unreliable? Cersei has no motive to lie about this. Neither really does Tywin. He was mourning after her death, enough that he acted rather thoughtless to a diplomatic envoy. Her death was a huge loss for him. He stopped smiling entirely after it. There's no evidence in the slightest that she was murdered.

[Otomodachi]

Robert Strong may have something to say about that statement

Not without a head...


Who's unreliable? Cersei has no motive to lie about this. Neither really does Tywin. He was mourning after her death, enough that he acted rather thoughtless to a diplomatic envoy. Her death was a huge loss for him. He stopped smiling entirely after it. There's no evidence in the slightest that she was murdered.

Well, I mean he stopped smiling entirely after that...

I don't know what to tell ya. :) It's all theory, and my guess is it's a fluke and won't be addressed at all and Tyrion will die somehow. Probably starvation. Tywin, in my opinion, has every reason to live a lie about the whole thing. I'm telling ya, it all ties into my read of him as ruled by fear of one thing, that's why he's so tightly wound. We only really see him portrayed through the eyes of his children, which JUST occured to me in typing this and is a strike against what I'm saying, but take it as you will. :)

Who's everyone's favourite character? Why?

EDIT-


Really? Because, despite Tyrion's speech on shielding yourself with your weaknesses (great advice), he seldom lives up to it. He is embittered by it, blames his failings upon it, blames the fact he cannot get his father's respect upon it. He really does use it as a shield, not from everyone else but from his own responsibility in his actions. Now that's a bit harsh, and honestly his dwarfism has hurt him, but he does play that card a lot when faced with problems, a lot of which he created through his stubbornness and personality more than his height.

Honestly the only real differences I see in their personalities (other than level of acceptable evil, and as of the last couple books that's changing for Tyrion anyway) is that Tywin hides his insecurities with harsh looks, while Tyrion does it with a joke. The insecurities are definitely still there though. As is the desire to prove themselves as the biggest, smartest bastard in every room they walk in. Which is really key to both their characters that lust for further respect and prominence.

As to Sansa
Ehh. The books had her going down this path as well, figuring out Petyr's plans and rolling with them. Honestly, I've been waiting for her to start taking a more active role in the books for quite some time now. I've always thought of her as the most boring character with the most interesting chapters (as opposed to Bran, an interesting character with chapters that move so slow a slug passed them by). Sure, this costume change is a bit less subtle than the books, which is pretty par for the course.

As to revealing herself to the Vale, I'll wait to see what they do with it. But I'm with you that the change has me on edge.


Might just be because he's a POV character, Tywin isn't, and I want him to be active instead of reactive. Tywin's patient, Tyrion isn't.

[Legato Endless]

In the vein of fun theories…

Young Griff is a Blackfyre. Child of Illyrio and the unnamed female line which wasn't wiped out. He doesn't know this, but Varys does. At the very least, he's a fake, no way was Raegar's son saved from the Mountain miraculously.

TV Tropes has a great essay about this, and why Tywin doesn't get to be a POV character. Copy and pasted to avoid odder things on that page…

Viewpoint, Power and The Central-Character Equation - by slvstrChung

One of A Song of Ice and Fire's most notorious aspects is its Switching P.O.V. and almost absurd preponderance of narrators; A Dance with Dragons alone has 18, which is just barely short of the number of stars in the credits of Game of Thrones's first season. (God, imagine the credits if they get that far.) What most of us don't realize is just how author George R. R. Martin uses these facts to transmit information and inform expectations.

Simply put: there is a division in A Song of Ice and Fire between Movers & Shakers and narrators, and very infrequently is a character ever both.

The thing about fiction is that it typically concerns itself with the struggle between Good and Evil, or at least Order Versus Chaos. This is how we can have good guys and bad guys, heroes and villains, The Cape against the Complete Monster: one protects others, or at least tries to do no harm, whilst the other advances a personal agenda regardless of others (or even to the direct detriment of others). This ups the ante for our heroic types, who are now involved in a Save The World Climax from the Big Bad's depredations; but the point is that some characters are sympathetic, and others not.

The thing about Real Life is that, more often than not, it has nothing to do with good and evil. Sure, we have to decide whether to be selfish or good... but sometimes not even that. Sometimes it's not a choice we make. Sometimes it's a choice someone else makes, which then affects us. The continuum we live on is not (or at least is less) about Good vs. Evil. It's about Weak versus Strong. With great power Comes Great Responsibility, sure, to use it for good and not for evil... but do we have that "great" power? Are we in charge of our own lives, or is somebody else deciding these things for us? Stories typically tend to be about the decision-makers—they're more dynamic, more interesting, have more plot possibilities to them; everybody wants to be the guy with power. But that, in itself, just underscores the point: guys with power make good Escapist Characters precisely because most Real Life people aren't "guys with power".

And this distinction is preserved in A Song of Ice and Fire.
Let's just take the first book, since the audience is most familiar with it at this point. It has eight narrators: Bran, Catelyn, Eddard, Jon, Arya, Tyrion, Daenerys and Sansa. A number of these people, particularly Ned and Tyrion, have some power to call on, but none of them are at the top of the heap. In the meanwhile, there are other characters who really, really have power and are making most of the big decisions: King Robert Baratheon, his son Crown Prince Joffrey Baratheon, his wife Cersei Lannister, and Prince Viserys Targaryen, with people like Littlefinger and Varys lurking in the wings. These are the people making the actual decisions, calling the tune to which our narrators dance. As the story progresses, one narrator joins the Popular Crowd: Ned. For this reason, we immediately start assuming that he's a main character: in our experience, main characters are not just Good, they're also Strong. Ned not only shows a moral code, he shows agency; add to this the fact that he's a narrator, and our minds are made up.

Ladies and Gentlemen, I'd like to introduce you to our other main character: George R. R. Martin, master of the Subverted Trope.
First off, Ned is quite obviously not the main character; being Killed Off for Real will do that to ya. Second, while he has power, he doesn't have much of it (it's basically a loan from the king), he doesn't know how to use it, and a number of other people (particularly Cersei and Littlefinger) are able to circumvent what little he does have. Third: the trope being deconstructed in the first place is the idea that main characters have to be Strong, that only Strong characters can affect the outcome of the story. All our narrators are the Hero of Another Story, The Greatest Story Never Told; the big names are going to be remembered by Westerosi historians, but the real movers and shakers—our narrators—will be left in the dust.

As the series continues, this line gets blurrier and blurrier—mostly because the big Movers and Shakers have a tendency to attract fatal attention in Westeros, allowing some Ishmaels to themselves move into the spotlight. But notice that, during The War of Five Kings, not a single one of those five kings is a narrator. Instead, we always have an Ishmael nearby to watch them. The King in the North? Catelyn. Renly? ...Same narrator, actually. Stannis has the brave Ser Davos to spy on him; Balon Greyjoy his son Theon; and Joffrey, Cersei, Varys, Littlefinger and Lord Tywin are all attended by both Tyrion and Sansa. The pattern continues as the story does: we have no Frey narrator, the Boltons remain inscrutable, Mance Rayder is viewed from the outside; Doran Martell and Euron Greyjoy and Beric Dondarrion and Lady Stoneheart have to be talked about. A Dance with Dragons gives us someone who is clearly going to be a major player in the game of thrones, Aegon VI Targaryen, but he isn't a narrator either. Whoever turns out to be at the heart of the Oldtown conspiracy to quash magic (if such a thing exists), I guarantee you he won't narrate; Sam will viewpoint for him. Even Jeor Mormant, the Old Bear who is Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, doesn't narrate.

Perhaps most damning, though, is GRRM's announcement that certain characters will never be narrators because they know too much about what's going on. I won't tell you who they are, though you can find out yourself if you so desire (thanks, deathpigeon, for hunting this So Spake Martin entry down for me! ~slvstrChung), but the mere fact that such characters exist tells you a lot about how Martin plans to tell the story.

What I'm trying to get at is this: you can tell who's going to be important to the story by asking two questions: Who's the narrator?, and who are they Ishmaeling for?

This brings us to some of the few exceptions to the rule. On occasion, we'll have characters who are narrators and Movers & Shakers. One was Ned; obviously, he didn't stay that way for long. Another is Cersei, who comes into the dawn of her regency at the same time she becomes a narrator. The solution there is that Cersei loses her agency right quick; being a Small Name, Big Ego will do that to ya. But the last two are by far the most questionable, because either they're going to toss our theory on its head or be upended themselves. There are two Movers & Shakers, two characters with power, two Strong characters, who are also narrators, and have been from the beginning. One is the Bastard of Winterfell, the 998th Lord Commander of the Night's Watch: Jon Snow. The other is the Stormborn, the Unburnt, Rightful Queen of Westeros, Breaker of Chains and Mother of Dragons: Daenerys Targaryen.

First off: what's the first thing the fandom did? Elect them as Main Characters. There are a lot of people who believe that, if A Song of Ice and Fire HAS a single central character, it's Daenerys; if it has two, the second is Jon. (If there's a third, it gets muddier; my money's on Tyrion, but it could be Sansa or Bran or Arya or, in light of the events of Dance, the new character, or even Davos.) Second: how does this jive with GRRM's ongoing habit of not letting us see what's going on in the minds of the Movers and Shakers, so as to keep them inscrutable and interesting? Well, part of it is that we (the readership) are expecting Jon and Dany to learn how to wield their power and authority properly, which is basically the one thing every other Mover & Shaker has not figured out at this point; Daenerys certainly has that goal in mind, and Jon (who is rocking the boat up north) is taking the long view, and the right view too, though a lot of his associated characters won't admit it. These two Strong characters who are learning (or at least trying) to wield their power With Great Responsibility. These two Strong characters are trying to do what Ned did—be both Strong and Good.

Third: What if they aren't movers and shakers? What if they're Decoy Protagonists just like Ned Stark was?
I have to say that, personally, I don't think so. First off, the readership would murder GRRM in his bed if he did that, and he knows it. Second, it goes against the narrative direction of the story; there's a reason fans have also accused both Jon and Dany of being Mary Sues and having the author's favor. Third, there is personal correspondence from GRRM (more So Spake Martin) that Jon's parentage will come out over the course of the story. Since it hasn't yet, it seems to me that Jon's arc isn't finished. (Though it might be posthumous, as much of other characters' development has.) And fourth: who else would feel The Chains of Commanding? Because if there's An Aesop to the series at all, it's this: no one wins the game of thrones. At least, not in a Crapsack World like Westeros. That's why the narrator/Mover divide is set up the way it is. Through our Ishmaels, we not only see how the pieces in the game suffer, but how the players are undone as well; in that sense, Jon and Dany are only the cherries on top. But the fact that they are feeling those chains is the one thing that sets them apart from every other character; the Movers have power, the narrators feel responsibility, but only Jon and Dany deal with both. Again, they are both Strong and Good. And that's why the fandom, who still can't get past the old ways of doing things, have nominated them as main characters.

There's still two books to go and my entire analysis may be undone by their events. But that's is my read on the story. This is slvstrChung, signing off.

[Otomodachi]

In the vein of fun theories…

Young Griff is a Blackfyre. Child of Illyrio and the unnamed female line which wasn't wiped out. He doesn't know this, but Varys does. At the very least, he's a fake, no way was Raegar's son saved from the Mountain miraculously.

TV Tropes has a great essay about this, and why Tywin doesn't get to be a POV character. Copy and pasted to avoid odder things on that page…

Viewpoint, Power and The Central-Character Equation - by slvstrChung

One of A Song of Ice and Fire's most notorious aspects is its Switching P.O.V. and almost absurd preponderance of narrators; A Dance with Dragons alone has 18, which is just barely short of the number of stars in the credits of Game of Thrones's first season. (God, imagine the credits if they get that far.) What most of us don't realize is just how author George R. R. Martin uses these facts to transmit information and inform expectations.

Simply put: there is a division in A Song of Ice and Fire between Movers & Shakers and narrators, and very infrequently is a character ever both.

The thing about fiction is that it typically concerns itself with the struggle between Good and Evil, or at least Order Versus Chaos. This is how we can have good guys and bad guys, heroes and villains, The Cape against the Complete Monster: one protects others, or at least tries to do no harm, whilst the other advances a personal agenda regardless of others (or even to the direct detriment of others). This ups the ante for our heroic types, who are now involved in a Save The World Climax from the Big Bad's depredations; but the point is that some characters are sympathetic, and others not.

The thing about Real Life is that, more often than not, it has nothing to do with good and evil. Sure, we have to decide whether to be selfish or good... but sometimes not even that. Sometimes it's not a choice we make. Sometimes it's a choice someone else makes, which then affects us. The continuum we live on is not (or at least is less) about Good vs. Evil. It's about Weak versus Strong. With great power Comes Great Responsibility, sure, to use it for good and not for evil... but do we have that "great" power? Are we in charge of our own lives, or is somebody else deciding these things for us? Stories typically tend to be about the decision-makers—they're more dynamic, more interesting, have more plot possibilities to them; everybody wants to be the guy with power. But that, in itself, just underscores the point: guys with power make good Escapist Characters precisely because most Real Life people aren't "guys with power".

And this distinction is preserved in A Song of Ice and Fire.
Let's just take the first book, since the audience is most familiar with it at this point. It has eight narrators: Bran, Catelyn, Eddard, Jon, Arya, Tyrion, Daenerys and Sansa. A number of these people, particularly Ned and Tyrion, have some power to call on, but none of them are at the top of the heap. In the meanwhile, there are other characters who really, really have power and are making most of the big decisions: King Robert Baratheon, his son Crown Prince Joffrey Baratheon, his wife Cersei Lannister, and Prince Viserys Targaryen, with people like Littlefinger and Varys lurking in the wings. These are the people making the actual decisions, calling the tune to which our narrators dance. As the story progresses, one narrator joins the Popular Crowd: Ned. For this reason, we immediately start assuming that he's a main character: in our experience, main characters are not just Good, they're also Strong. Ned not only shows a moral code, he shows agency; add to this the fact that he's a narrator, and our minds are made up.

Ladies and Gentlemen, I'd like to introduce you to our other main character: George R. R. Martin, master of the Subverted Trope.
First off, Ned is quite obviously not the main character; being Killed Off for Real will do that to ya. Second, while he has power, he doesn't have much of it (it's basically a loan from the king), he doesn't know how to use it, and a number of other people (particularly Cersei and Littlefinger) are able to circumvent what little he does have. Third: the trope being deconstructed in the first place is the idea that main characters have to be Strong, that only Strong characters can affect the outcome of the story. All our narrators are the Hero of Another Story, The Greatest Story Never Told; the big names are going to be remembered by Westerosi historians, but the real movers and shakers—our narrators—will be left in the dust.

As the series continues, this line gets blurrier and blurrier—mostly because the big Movers and Shakers have a tendency to attract fatal attention in Westeros, allowing some Ishmaels to themselves move into the spotlight. But notice that, during The War of Five Kings, not a single one of those five kings is a narrator. Instead, we always have an Ishmael nearby to watch them. The King in the North? Catelyn. Renly? ...Same narrator, actually. Stannis has the brave Ser Davos to spy on him; Balon Greyjoy his son Theon; and Joffrey, Cersei, Varys, Littlefinger and Lord Tywin are all attended by both Tyrion and Sansa. The pattern continues as the story does: we have no Frey narrator, the Boltons remain inscrutable, Mance Rayder is viewed from the outside; Doran Martell and Euron Greyjoy and Beric Dondarrion and Lady Stoneheart have to be talked about. A Dance with Dragons gives us someone who is clearly going to be a major player in the game of thrones, Aegon VI Targaryen, but he isn't a narrator either. Whoever turns out to be at the heart of the Oldtown conspiracy to quash magic (if such a thing exists), I guarantee you he won't narrate; Sam will viewpoint for him. Even Jeor Mormant, the Old Bear who is Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, doesn't narrate.

Perhaps most damning, though, is GRRM's announcement that certain characters will never be narrators because they know too much about what's going on. I won't tell you who they are, though you can find out yourself if you so desire (thanks, deathpigeon, for hunting this So Spake Martin entry down for me! ~slvstrChung), but the mere fact that such characters exist tells you a lot about how Martin plans to tell the story.

What I'm trying to get at is this: you can tell who's going to be important to the story by asking two questions: Who's the narrator?, and who are they Ishmaeling for?

This brings us to some of the few exceptions to the rule. On occasion, we'll have characters who are narrators and Movers & Shakers. One was Ned; obviously, he didn't stay that way for long. Another is Cersei, who comes into the dawn of her regency at the same time she becomes a narrator. The solution there is that Cersei loses her agency right quick; being a Small Name, Big Ego will do that to ya. But the last two are by far the most questionable, because either they're going to toss our theory on its head or be upended themselves. There are two Movers & Shakers, two characters with power, two Strong characters, who are also narrators, and have been from the beginning. One is the Bastard of Winterfell, the 998th Lord Commander of the Night's Watch: Jon Snow. The other is the Stormborn, the Unburnt, Rightful Queen of Westeros, Breaker of Chains and Mother of Dragons: Daenerys Targaryen.

First off: what's the first thing the fandom did? Elect them as Main Characters. There are a lot of people who believe that, if A Song of Ice and Fire HAS a single central character, it's Daenerys; if it has two, the second is Jon. (If there's a third, it gets muddier; my money's on Tyrion, but it could be Sansa or Bran or Arya or, in light of the events of Dance, the new character, or even Davos.) Second: how does this jive with GRRM's ongoing habit of not letting us see what's going on in the minds of the Movers and Shakers, so as to keep them inscrutable and interesting? Well, part of it is that we (the readership) are expecting Jon and Dany to learn how to wield their power and authority properly, which is basically the one thing every other Mover & Shaker has not figured out at this point; Daenerys certainly has that goal in mind, and Jon (who is rocking the boat up north) is taking the long view, and the right view too, though a lot of his associated characters won't admit it. These two Strong characters who are learning (or at least trying) to wield their power With Great Responsibility. These two Strong characters are trying to do what Ned did—be both Strong and Good.

Third: What if they aren't movers and shakers? What if they're Decoy Protagonists just like Ned Stark was?
I have to say that, personally, I don't think so. First off, the readership would murder GRRM in his bed if he did that, and he knows it. Second, it goes against the narrative direction of the story; there's a reason fans have also accused both Jon and Dany of being Mary Sues and having the author's favor. Third, there is personal correspondence from GRRM (more So Spake Martin) that Jon's parentage will come out over the course of the story. Since it hasn't yet, it seems to me that Jon's arc isn't finished. (Though it might be posthumous, as much of other characters' development has.) And fourth: who else would feel The Chains of Commanding? Because if there's An Aesop to the series at all, it's this: no one wins the game of thrones. At least, not in a Crapsack World like Westeros. That's why the narrator/Mover divide is set up the way it is. Through our Ishmaels, we not only see how the pieces in the game suffer, but how the players are undone as well; in that sense, Jon and Dany are only the cherries on top. But the fact that they are feeling those chains is the one thing that sets them apart from every other character; the Movers have power, the narrators feel responsibility, but only Jon and Dany deal with both. Again, they are both Strong and Good. And that's why the fandom, who still can't get past the old ways of doing things, have nominated them as main characters.

There's still two books to go and my entire analysis may be undone by their events. But that's is my read on the story. This is slvstrChung, signing off.

Ooooph, awesome essay.

I would say the end bit, with Jon and Daenerys... they're both movers and shakers but they both messed up, badly. Very badly. Jon is going to somehow end up being responsible for the Wall failing. Daenerys has plunged the entire world economy into a freefall- like, a quarter of the economy is in open war, another third is just coming OUT of civil war... winter is coming, everyone starves, rocks fall, GG. That's who I think it's gonna end.


Edit- “In a room sit three great men, a king, a priest, and a rich man with his gold. Between them stands a sellsword, a little man of common birth and no great mind. Each of the great ones bids him slay the other two. ‘Do it,’ says the king, ‘for I am your lawful ruler.’ ‘Do it,’ says the priest, ‘for I command you in the names of the gods.’ ‘Do it,’ says the rich man, ‘and all this gold shall be yours.’ So tell me – who lives and who dies?”

Everyone.

[happyturtle]

I think the show did the whole vamp reveal thing because visual is the tool of screen. Sansa's pivoting point in the book was when she chose to support Petyr's story about Lysa's death. She didn't do it out of fear, the way she parroted the lines about her father and brother being traitors. She could have asserted her identity, and with the singer Marillon as a witness, immediately turned on Petyr. Could he have talked his way out of it? Maybe, maybe not. But at that moment, Sansa had actual power to try to remove a piece from the game board, something she'd never had before. She chose not to use it - possibly realizing she'd just be a pawn again, to be fought over by the Lords of the Vale had she sacrificed Petyr. And she knows now that she has some power of Petyr, if only because of her resemblance to Catelyn. The book shows this turning point by her starting to grasp some of Petyr's tools of manipulation. But screen can do it much more economically, with a costume change and change in the actor's demeanour.

I think they've gone off script though, so whatever comes next is going to be a surprise for everyone.


Aha! This tells me something. I've always felt that Jon's and Danerys's storylines could be lifted completely out of the story and not missed. I felt they didn't have the complexity of the others. Now I know one of the reasons they felt so different.

The Wall comes down. The Others invade Westeros. But, just in time, the dragons save the day. Then they begin laying waste to everything. Between the Others, the dragons, and the long winter, civilization is utterly smashed. Only a few pockets of survivors make it until spring.

[Kato]

So, um... How stating 'but he was only sadistically evil sometimes, as a means to an end, and normally doesn't kill random people, if he doesn't think he can get away with it, at least' prove he is not sadistically evil, exactly? :smallconfused:

Well, for one thing if he was an evil sadist he could be it all the time. He's arguably the most powerful man in Westeros and he only occasionally is sadistic because...? It's fun enough to let his "underlings" have their fun and be told about it? I don't think that's how a sadist would think. He could get away with horrible things just as easy as Joffrey, really, but he never acted anywhere close to him over the course of the story. As I said, I'll agree from a larger viewpoint the event with Tyrion could be considered sadistic, but even then the question whether one sadistic act makes you a sadist remains.


As for the discussion about Tyrion's heritage..

While I'm not totally unwilling to believe Tyrion is not Tywin's son, whether because Aerys did something to Joanna or Joanna just was not as faithful as Tywin wants us to believe, but I don't really see a necessity for it to be true. Tyrion, from Tywin's view, is a freak, a disgrace, and the killer of his wife. Enough reasons to hate him without being a bastard.



Edit- “In a room sit three great men, a king, a priest, and a rich man with his gold. Between them stands a sellsword, a little man of common birth and no great mind. Each of the great ones bids him slay the other two. ‘Do it,’ says the king, ‘for I am your lawful ruler.’ ‘Do it,’ says the priest, ‘for I command you in the names of the gods.’ ‘Do it,’ says the rich man, ‘and all this gold shall be yours.’ So tell me – who lives and who dies?”

Hm... I kind of like how he keeps bringing that riddle up, though the answer is clear.
Well, Otomodachi is right on the one hand, but I think the answer is clear: It depends on the sellsword and his priorities in life (or thereafter). Every man is going to give you a different answer.



The Wall comes down. The Others invade Westeros. But, just in time, the dragons save the day. Then they begin laying waste to everything. Between the Others, the dragons, and the long winter, civilization is utterly smashed. Only a few pockets of survivors make it until spring.
Really?
I already have a hard time imagining the dragons on their own destroying an army of White Walkers, though I guess if there's some weak point they just need to attack this could work out... But there's also the Lord of Light and his champion and the obsidian weapons and so on... I don't see that war destroying Westeros entirely.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Anything from the books should be in spoilers, since they're only tangentially on topic for a TV show thread.


Maybe with 9 PM EST, but Monday's at 1:00 GMT should cover literally everyone.

Almost nobody in GMT is actually watching at that time.


And don't you dare get in a debate of the validity of wikipedia. This is the internet and I am not going to waste time arguing about source A vs source B. My time is too precious to get involved in stupid arguments.

All Wikipedia says is what this Robert Hare guy thinks. That's practically nothing when no two Doctors agree on this stuff anyway. I'm not unsympathetic, I'd like to make similar distinctions with high functioning autism and aspergers, but the medical literature can't back anyone up. You have every right to explain what you mean by the term but that's all.

'Popular science' is a genre that means the book is written for enthusiastic laymen rather than scientists, it doesn't mean its actually popular or well known (which would be a hard to verify value statement anyway).


He doesn't take pleasure from his vile actions, he just does them because they are the most direct method to obtaining his goals.


Without his POV that's only an assumption. He doesn't need to watch people suffer in front of him like Ramsey probably does but I'm sure he takes satisfaction from it.

Jon is currently dead, so he's not too important right now.

ADWD and AFFC make sense together as basically being about Jon, Cersei and Dany's failures of rulership. Though to he honest their main 'mistake' was thinking they had made the right decision in a circumstance where there were no right decisions, with Dany actually being the wisest to that fact but at the same time making the openly stupidest choice.

[Trixie]

Episodes 9 and 10

Will be Battle of the Wall, and THEN Tyrion's stuff. A huge battle is a better climax, on TV at least, and episode 9 is where the climax belongs. Tyrion's stuff is more likely to provoke long-term discussion and theorizing; that's what you want in a season finale.

Sansa's bull-puckey in episode 8-

What the hell. So, we get Sansa just telling anyone who'll listen "Oh I am Sansa Stark by the way, haaaaaai!" And then she comes out with a new hair colour. I don't know what the desired impression was to be other than "SAY HELLO TO EVIL SANSA SHE IS WAY COOL." I don't mind changing stuff from the books; I mind changing things from the book and doing it badly. This whole extended scene was, in my opinion, poorly executed. Sansa's entire arc, for me, has just ground to a halt. And I HATE Sansa Stark, I should be one of the people who's *excited* to see her not being useless.

If you are right, wouldn't episode 10 then be a big climax? I just find it unlikely they wouldn't save a big battle for last episode if what follows wasn't even more important. Ned level important. Hmm... :smallyuk:

Anyway, as for Sansa, doesn't the series version actually make more sense? Books: "here, we agree to this big marriage of important heir to bastard and let you lord everyone over for no reason". Series: "oh, we actually have a pretty good reason for marriage now and the fact you have such a big card in your sleeve means we will play along for now".


In the vein of fun theories…

Young Griff is a Blackfyre. Child of Illyrio and the unnamed female line which wasn't wiped out. He doesn't know this, but Varys does. At the very least, he's a fake, no way was Raegar's son saved from the Mountain miraculously.

What if Daenerys is a Blackfyre/Illyrio child and Aegon is real? :smallyuk:

Note: Jon Connington, one of Rhaegar most loyal men, never objected to Griff. Would he play along with Blackfyre? Nope. Meanwhile, the guy who supposedly rescued Daenerys and her bro conveniently died off screen. Another note is how Daenerys can't control dragons, and we even more conveniently had no way of seeing them react to Griff as he changed course. What if he can control them with ease?

It would also explain why Dany, not Aegon got the eggs - if the whole adventure was sponsored by Blackfyre/Illyrio deals, it would make more sense to give the most resources to their heir, not Targaryen one.


Jon is currently dead, so he's not too important right now.

ADWD and AFFC make sense together as basically being about Jon, Cersei and Dany's failures of rulership. Though to he honest their main 'mistake' was thinking they had made the right decision in a circumstance where there were no right decisions, with Dany actually being the wisest to that fact but at the same time making the openly stupidest choice.

He is about as "dead" as Brienne was.

Um, why most openly stupidest choice? :smallconfused:

[Legato Endless]

He is about as "dead" as Brienne was.

Um, why most openly stupidest choice? :smallconfused:

Even if his body were dead, which the stabbing doesn't confirm as you say, the character's arc certainly isn't finished. From warging into Ghost's body to Melisandre resurrecting him to the Ice Dragon imagery and multiple dreams of the future, Jon isn't gone.


What if Daenerys is a Blackfyre/Illyrio child and Aegon is real? :smallyuk:

Note: Jon Connington, one of Rhaegar most loyal men, never objected to Griff. Would he play along with Blackfyre? Nope. Meanwhile, the guy who supposedly rescued Daenerys and her bro conveniently died off screen. Another note is how Daenerys can't control dragons, and we even more conveniently had no way of seeing them react to Griff as he changed course. What if he can control them with ease?

It would also explain why Dany, not Aegon got the eggs - if the whole adventure was sponsored by Blackfyre/Illyrio deals, it would make more sense to give the most resources to their heir, not Targaryen one.

Jon Connington is a desperate man willing to believe anything for the sake of helping his beloved Rhaegar. Furthermore, Targs don't have magic mind control over all dragon kind. Targ dragons have killed other Targs before in the story, either under the direction of the rival, or simply because the dragon wasn't tamed. Targs have a mystic resistance to heat, but the taming of the dragons isn't special to the bloodline. The entire civilization of the Valyrian freehold was built on this.

The Eggs are easy. The dragon birthing was never accounted for. Illyrio gave Danny a lavish gift so she didn't look like a pauper for her husband. The entire purpose was to sell a powerful foreign lord on the idea of marrying an exotic princess. Neither Varys or Illyrio had any idea the dragon eggs would hatch. Varys hates magic, and we never see him giving any ear to prophecy. Now, as for Griff…

Who is Griff's primary sponsor militarily? The Golden Company. Founded by Bittersteel, one of the Great Bastards. When Tyrion asks how Illyrio was able to manipulate the Company into breaking their word, which they are famous for always honoring, he says some deals are writ in ink, and some in blood. He further states that red or black, a dragon is still a dragon. Now, this could be used to state that Danny, whom the Company originally intended to meet with, is a Blackfyre, but it has issues. Danny is a known quantity. We already knew her mother was pregnant, so we have a child to account for. Danny is resistant to heat, which is a Targ ability.

Aegon VI's survival requires that Varys somehow predicted the baby's murder would render him unrecognizable. He had no way of knowing if the child's face would be smashed in, which would ruin any such body swapping plan. The Targ features are incredibly uncommon Westeros, but not in Lys. Finally, Danny is told by Quaithe to beware the mummer's dragon. Varys was a mummer. And the House of Undying gives her a vision of a cloth dragon swaying on poles before a cheering crowd. It's one of the three lies she must 'slay'.

[Flickerdart]

Danny is resistant to heat, which is a Targ ability.
Aren't the Blackfyres a Targaryen cadet branch? They should have the same ability, right?

[AtlanteanTroll]

Nah, nothing ever happens in the final episode of each season. All the good stuff goes down in Episode 9.

That's only mostly true. Everyone knows the last 5 minutes of the finale are amaze-balls. :smalltongue:

[Aedilred]

Whether the Targs even have any sort of fire-resistance (including Daenerys) is debatable. The show has added in a couple of moments of Dany surviving heat outside the dragons, but iirc Martin has mentioned that her survival of the fire which birthed the dragons was a one-off thing and not indicative of a wider resistance or immunity. As mentioned, numerous Targs have been killed by fire in the past.

On the Blackfyres and Aegon, this has consumed about a billion threads on westeros.org and I really don't know where I stand on it. My main problem with the Blackfyre theory is that the Blackfyres are still fairly easily missed in the main book narrative, and make a weaksauce "revelation" for such a major plot twist. As to the logistical difficulties surrounding Aegon's escape, I don't find them as far-fetched as some. We know Varys is a good Player, and that he feared the consequences of letting Tywin into the city. Body doubles for members of the royal family - especially babies who probably haven't been seen by many people anyway - is hardly a ridiculous concept. Of course, it would have been easier to have just substituted a random kid afterwards, but then it would have been easier for GRRM to have written a less complicated plot, so that's not a deal-breaker.



Who's everyone's favourite character? Why?
Among book readers, the names I most frequently see mentioned are Oberyn Martell, Dolorous Edd and Wyman Manderly. More occasionally: the Queen of Thorns, Cortnay Penrose, Sam Tarly and Ser Pounce. Oh, and Stannis, but that's really just a hard core of very loud people.

Of course the show has changed some of those characters, removed lines, and cut some altogether (and one hasn't yet appeared, if they will at all) so things will be different.

Among show watchers, I'd imagine Tyrion would be high on the list.

In book terms, I like Oberyn, and Edd and Manderly. But pound for pound my favourite character right now is probably:
Jaime Lannister
Also fond of Varys, and, despite everything, Littlefinger.

Show-wise, it's difficult to say. Generally I like most of the show-characters less than their book counterparts, with the possible exception of Tywin whose scenes with Arya softened the character a bit. Probably Varys.

[Legato Endless]

Aren't the Blackfyres a Targaryen cadet branch? They should have the same ability, right?

It's hard to say. The Blackfyre's are an illegitimate offshoot, but the Targ fire resistance is neither a blanket ability nor held by all members. Danny's funeral pyre was a miraculous event, per the author, but Danny also proves fine (minus her hair) when she interacts with Drogon in DWD. And Duncan notes Egg's affinity for heat in the first short story, though his mad elder brother later attempts to drink wild fire under the belief he's literally a dragon in human form…and it doesn't go very well. The other complication is the theory that Danny's survival of the pyre has more to do with her being the prince that was promised. That said, regardless of how she survived, there's no real evidence for Danny being a Blackfyre, and her being an impersonator requires a fair bit of speculation beyond the known facts. Griff is much more suspect, I think.




On the Blackfyres and Aegon, this has consumed about a billion threads on westeros.org and I really don't know where I stand on it. My main problem with the Blackfyre theory is that the Blackfyres are still fairly easily missed in the main book narrative, and make a weaksauce "revelation" for such a major plot twist. As to the logistical difficulties surrounding Aegon's escape, I don't find them as far-fetched as some. We know Varys is a good Player, and that he feared the consequences of letting Tywin into the city. Body doubles for members of the royal family - especially babies who probably haven't been seen by many people anyway - is hardly a ridiculous concept. Of course, it would have been easier to have just substituted a random kid afterwards, but then it would have been easier for GRRM to have written a less complicated plot, so that's not a deal-breaker.


I think the narrative significance would be fair before ADWD, but the Blackfyres get mentioned repeatedly in the book, though they certainly don't loom to the same extent as in the Dunk and Egg series. If Griff isn't a Blackfyre, why are they mentioned so often in Book 5 at all? They're irrelevant to the plot at this point. I don't really see how it would be weak. It fits the foreshadowing quite well, and we don't precisely know the full scope of Aegon's significance. With the threat with the Others looming closer, I don't think he's going to quite be the player in the game he intends to be. There isn't enough space. Well assuming this is resolved in two more books. If Martin extends things more, all bets are off.


Show-wise, it's difficult to say. Generally I like most of the show-characters less than their book counterparts, with the possible exception of Tywin whose scenes with Arya softened the character a bit.

Agreed on both counts.

[Dienekes]

Favorite characters, huh? Well for me it depends what you mean. The characters I root for were Ned, Tyrion, Robb, Arya, and The Hound. The characters I thought were the most interesting were Tywin, Varys, Hound, and Littlefinger. The characters I always enjoyed were Syrio Forel, Dolorous Ed, Strong Belwas, Queen of Thorns, and Tyrion. But there has been one character that has gotten me emotionally invested in the outcome of there story more than any other. Joffrey. The books just aren't the same without him. I loved to hate that little bastard.

Though I will add while I always thought him just an old guy with a vaguely cool nickname, I have learned to respect The Blackfish for something.
I will always think of him fondly for his scene where he was on a bridge with Jaime. My only regret is he didn't rub the Lannisters failures as a man in more.

[Aedilred]

Though I will add while I always thought him just an old guy with a vaguely cool nickname, I have learned to respect The Blackfish for something.
I will always think of him fondly for his scene where he was on a bridge with Jaime. My only regret is he didn't rub the Lannisters failures as a man in more.
Although that scene had a sadly (or amusingly, depending on your perspective) ironic twist to it, of course:
The Jaime he met on the bridge was not the Jaime he thought he was talking to. Whatever failings he had in the past (and they were many) by that point he was one of the very few characters, certainly in the South, actively trying to fix things rather than just profit personally. I did rather enjoy the way Jaime used his reputation as a ruthless oathbreaker to help him keep his oath in the Riverrun scenario.

[Yana]

Well, if we're going for PoV characters, I'd have to do this by tiers:

Top Tier: Arya Stark, Davos Seaworth, Tyrion Lannister, Jamie Lannister, Barristan Selmy, Samwell Tarley
Mid Tier: Brienne, Eddard Stark, Jon Snow, Theon Greyjoy, Asha Greyjoy, Areo Hotah, Arianne Martell, Melisandre, Jon Connington
Bottom Tier: Catelyn Stark, Cersei Lannister, Arys Oakheart, Aeron Greyjoy, Victarion Greyjoy, Quentyn Martell, Daenerys Targaryen, Bran Stark

If we want to go by non PoV characters, I'd have to say I'm partial to Syrio Forel, Stannis Baratheon, and Roose Bolton (just because of how he's managed to get as far as he has).

Dany is probably my least favorite character overall just due to how much time we've spent in her presence doing... nothing of real importance (importance being defined as "taking place in Westeros").

[Dienekes]

Although that scene had a sadly (or amusingly, depending on your perspective) ironic twist to it, of course:
The Jaime he met on the bridge was not the Jaime he thought he was talking to. Whatever failings he had in the past (and they were many) by that point he was one of the very few characters, certainly in the South, actively trying to fix things rather than just profit personally. I did rather enjoy the way Jaime used his reputation as a ruthless oathbreaker to help him keep his oath in the Riverrun scenario.

Definitely amusing for me. I'll concede Jaime's arc is that he's becoming a better person. But so far everything he's done has been too little, too late for me. I also have a hard time pitying the guy when most of his problems stem from the fact he couldn't keep it in his pants.

[Otomodachi]

Definitely amusing for me. I'll concede Jaime's arc is that he's becoming a better person. But so far everything he's done has been too little, too late for me. I also have a hard time pitying the guy when most of his problems stem from the fact he couldn't keep it in his pants.

Whaaaaat?

Say what you want about his character, but I believe Jaime was absolutely romantically in love with his sister. It was just "keeping it in his pants". She was his one true love.

[Dienekes]

Whaaaaat?

Say what you want about his character, but I believe Jaime was absolutely romantically in love with his sister. It was just "keeping it in his pants". She was his one true love.

Go ahead and believe it, I don't see how whether or not he was in love matters to the point. It doesn't change the fact that he banged a married woman every opportunity he could, threatened to kill the king if he woke up (because they were screwing right overtop him), and tried to kill a small child all because apparently he has absolutely no self control.

[zabbarot]

So GRRM is raising money for a wolf sanctuary in Santa Fe, NM. If you donate you'll be interred in a raffle, and the winner gets to hang out with him for a day at the wolf sanctuary.

Mostly I'm just amused that for a donation of $20,000 he will write you into a future book and kill you off. Apparently both available slots for that have already been filled though :smalltongue:


Martyr $20,000.00 appear in the novel!
0 of 2 available
4000 entries into contest

At this level, you'll get the incredibly exclusive opportunity to have George name a character after you in a future A Song of Ice and Fire novel. There is one male character and one female character available. You can choose your character's station in the world (lordling, knight, peasant, whore, lady, maester, septon, anything) and you will certainly meet a grisly death! You will also get all of the above rewards (with the exception of "extra rewards") Rewards will be shipped within 4-12 weeks of campaign close and might be sent separately.

Link here. (http://www.prizeo.com/prizes/georgerrmartin/a-wolf-sanctuary-tour-and-helicopter-ride)

[happyturtle]

Favourite character? Hmm, several categories:

Favourite protagonist/viewpoint character:
Arya, Tyrion, Sam

Love to see on screen/page:
Davos, Dolorous Edd

Love to hate:
Tywin Lannister, Walder Frey

Hate to love:
Jaime and Cersei

Overall favourite:
Sansa

[Legato Endless]

So GRRM is raising money for a wolf sanctuary in Santa Fe, NM.

Link here. (http://www.prizeo.com/prizes/georgerrmartin/a-wolf-sanctuary-tour-and-helicopter-ride)

That's really cool. However, let's be honest. GRRM could raise millions for most any cause. He just needs the right stretch goal.

20 Million. -I'll release book 6 next year-

[zabbarot]

That's really cool. However, let's be honest. GRRM could raise millions for most any cause. He just needs the right stretch goal.

20 Million. -I'll release book 6 next year-

Yeah, he could pretty much tack that on as a stretch goal for anything :smalltongue:

[shadow_archmagi]

My favorite characters on the show are Jon, Petyr, and Tywin. Oberyn is up there too.

I uh... judge actors mostly by how much I enjoy their voice.

[Aedilred]

My favorite characters on the show are Jon, Petyr, and Tywin. Oberyn is up there too.

I uh... judge actors mostly by how much I enjoy their voice.
I really can't stand Aiden Gillen's performance as Littlefinger. Very occasionally, he's understated enough to make it work (the scenes in the first season with Varys are some of his best) but most of the time he's all over the place, too bombastic, emphasis in the wrong places, weird accent, hamming it up, wooden facial expression. I have to consciously force him out of my mind to remember why I liked the character in the first place.

[Legato Endless]

I really can't stand Aiden Gillen's performance as Littlefinger. Very occasionally, he's understated enough to make it work (the scenes in the first season with Varys are some of his best) but most of the time he's all over the place, too bombastic, emphasis in the wrong places, weird accent, hamming it up, wooden facial expression. I have to consciously force him out of my mind to remember why I liked the character in the first place.

Agreed. Part of this is the writing. TV! Littlefinger is one of the most altered characters from the original, he's far less affable and subtle, though he doesn't suffer the competence decay some of the other adaptions do. If I had to pick, the one character I would recast is Houten as Melisandre. She's just not credible in the slightest.

[Rawhide]

Yeah but this:

Having a thread made up of 100% spoiler blocks just makes no sense to me. I could see maybe a 2-3 post buffer of spoiler blocks in case someone forgets a new episode just aired. But if after 2-3 posts of warning "Hey there's a new episode out, that's what's going to be discussed", anyone who hasn't watched the episode should know to get out by then.


And yet everyone knows, or should know, new episodes air on Sundays 9 PM EST (AKA: Mondays at 1:00 GMT).

So what's the point?

Ok, put it this way.

The Hairy Modfather: Please use spoilers for information that is less than seven days old (at a minimum) from the television series, or as yet unrevealed in the television series. You may also wish to use spoilers for information older than that, seven days is just a minimum.

Additionally, please mark your spoilers with which episode and/or book you should have read first.

If you enter the thread and are not concerned with spoilers, use the Spoilers > Show All drop down menu to show all spoilers in on the page (not just the post it is attached to).

[Killer Angel]

Definitely amusing for me. I'll concede Jaime's arc is that he's becoming a better person. But so far everything he's done has been too little, too late for me. I also have a hard time pitying the guy when most of his problems stem from the fact he couldn't keep it in his pants.

I managed to forgive jaime for throwing a child out the window and now I almost root for the kingslayer. I also hate Martin, for playing with my emotions like a cat with a mice. :smalltongue:

[Otomodachi]

I managed to forgive jaime for throwing a child out the window and now I almost root for the kingslayer. I also hate Martin, for playing with my emotions like a cat with a mice. :smalltongue:

Jaime's one of my favourite characters to follow, he's one of my favs because I like his arc. I also think we'd probably have fun in the same room together. I don't think I could ever forgive him for what he did to Bran, though. What he did to Bran is probably going to be resolved (IS being resolved) by him losing piece after piece of himself (his hand, Cersei, Joffrey, Tyrion, Tywin) until he has nothing left.

But I UNDERSTAND somewhat why he did it, why he was able to rationalize doing such a despicable thing just on the go-ahead of his lady-love. Jaime Lannister sacrificed something of himself, his honour, to do a truly righteous thing. Aerys HAD to die. HE HAD to DIE. And there was NOONE else with the opportunity to do it. I don't care about oaths, or offices- Jaime should have been a hero for what he did, but instead he spent a decade having 99% of the world telling him he is despicable. When people tell you something constantly, you internalize it.

My other two favourites are Tyrion ('natch) and STANNIS I LIKE STANNIS A LOT IS THIS TOO LOUD? :P I think Jaime, Tyrion and Stannis form our romantic, comedic and tragic male protagonists. Stannis' righteous ethics would be a positive trait in a person less consumed by them, and I think he is fascinating. Show-Stannis does not do book-Stannis justice, so I understand if TV-only fans don't get it, definitely. :)

[Dienekes]

But I UNDERSTAND somewhat why he did it, why he was able to rationalize doing such a despicable thing just on the go-ahead of his lady-love. Jaime Lannister sacrificed something of himself, his honour, to do a truly righteous thing. Aerys HAD to die. HE HAD to DIE. And there was NOONE else with the opportunity to do it. I don't care about oaths, or offices- Jaime should have been a hero for what he did, but instead he spent a decade having 99% of the world telling him he is despicable. When people tell you something constantly, you internalize it.


You know why he got saddled with the name kingslayer and scorned? Because he told no one about Aerys plan. Hell just not killing one of Aerys helpers and bringing them to justice instead would have made him a hero to everyone except Stark and Selmy. But he didn't. He just expected them to treat him with respect and somehow know he was special. Despite the fact that to everyone else he looks like a coward and a traiter.

Also, agree on Stannis. That's my biggest problem with the show by far.

[Otomodachi]

You know why he got saddled with the name kingslayer and scorned? Because he told no one about Aerys plan. Hell just not killing one of Aerys helpers and bringing them to justice instead would have made him a hero to everyone except Stark and Selmy. But he didn't. He just expected them to treat him with respect and somehow know he was special. Despite the fact that to everyone else he looks like a coward and a traiter.

Also, agree on Stannis. That's my biggest problem with the show by far.

But see, it feels like EVERYONE knew Mad King Aerys was mad, hence the moniker. ;) I, too, would probably assume I was going to get some accolades. Not a lot, cuz Westerosi culture is based on an heirarchy of oaths, but still some. Why should he HAVE to explain himself? I mean, everything else aside, Aerys had a couple guys burned to death, without trial, for the great crime of having a relative kidnapped. (OK, come out and die is a bad thing to try to shout at a crown prince, but still!) How could ANYONE not see Aerys as a guy who needed to die?

Oh, wait, 99% of Westerosi can be either competent, or ethical, but never both. ;)

[Killer Angel]

How could ANYONE not see Aerys as a guy who needed to die?

Because, even if they saw it, hypocrisy is SO convenient... :smallwink:

[Aedilred]

As far as Jaime and Aerys goes, I think the real problem is that the first person he saw after the deed was Ned Stark, possibly the worst person in Westeros to walk into the room at that moment with the possible exception of Stannis. He had probably been intending to explain why he'd done it, but then he sees the look on Ned's face - this a man whose relatives Aerys had had horribly killed, who possibly has more reason to hate the Mad King than anyone - and although we know that Ned was always going to value honour above vengeance, Jaime probably didn't. He just saw Ned's disgust and judgment and assumed "so this is what people are going to think of me".

I suspect he was also pretty screwed up and conflicted himself. He was, what, seventeen? He'd dreamed of being a knight all his life and he'd steadily seen all of that ground down and all the principles he'd once held dear betrayed. He's lost his respect for the Kingsguard as an institution. The king he's sworn to protect is a monster. Just about the one person he still looks up to as a man (Rhaegar) is dead. The whole structure of society is fundamentally flawed and he thinks he's the only person to see it. He does his part to save thousands of lives and then it seems nobody's going to care why he did it, only that he did.

And then after that it gets even worse: he sees the woman he loves married to someone else (who doesn't respect her, and for whom he soon loses any respect himself) and his father turns out to be just as much of a monster as the king. It starts to look to him like good things happen to bad people, that it's all some sort of big joke, and so he stops even really paying attention to what he's doing because none of it really matters. He revels in the irony that people revile him for what he considers to be the best (possibly the only good) thing he ever did, and that secret knowledge becomes the basis for the smirking nihilistic face he presents to the world. And the longer it goes on, perhaps, the more he subconsciously feels that even if he did make it public and people believed him, it's no longer enough to make up for what he's done since.

We meet Jaime at roughly his nadir. Watching him gradually rebuild himself into some semblance of the man he could and probably should have been all along after meeting Brienne is one of the best parts of the series, imo.

[Otomodachi]

As far as Jaime and Aerys goes, I think the real problem is that the first person he saw after the deed was Ned Stark, possibly the worst person in Westeros to walk into the room at that moment with the possible exception of Stannis. He had probably been intending to explain why he'd done it, but then he sees the look on Ned's face - this a man whose relatives Aerys had had horribly killed, who possibly has more reason to hate the Mad King than anyone - and although we know that Ned was always going to value honour above vengeance, Jaime probably didn't. He just saw Ned's disgust and judgment and assumed "so this is what people are going to think of me".

I suspect he was also pretty screwed up and conflicted himself. He was, what, seventeen? He'd dreamed of being a knight all his life and he'd steadily seen all of that ground down and all the principles he'd once held dear betrayed. He's lost his respect for the Kingsguard as an institution. The king he's sworn to protect is a monster. Just about the one person he still looks up to as a man (Rhaegar) is dead. The whole structure of society is fundamentally flawed and he thinks he's the only person to see it. He does his part to save thousands of lives and then it seems nobody's going to care why he did it, only that he did.

And then after that it gets even worse: he sees the woman he loves married to someone else (who doesn't respect her, and for whom he soon loses any respect himself) and his father turns out to be just as much of a monster as the king. It starts to look to him like good things happen to bad people, that it's all some sort of big joke, and so he stops even really paying attention to what he's doing because none of it really matters. He revels in the irony that people revile him for what he considers to be the best (possibly the only good) thing he ever did, and that secret knowledge becomes the basis for the smirking nihilistic face he presents to the world. And the longer it goes on, perhaps, the more he subconsciously feels that even if he did make it public and people believed him, it's no longer enough to make up for what he's done since.

We meet Jaime at roughly his nadir. Watching him gradually rebuild himself into some semblance of the man he could and probably should have been all along after meeting Brienne is one of the best parts of the series, imo.

Oh my glob. Jaime Lannister is an alternate reality Comedian!

[Legato Endless]

But see, it feels like EVERYONE knew Mad King Aerys was mad, hence the moniker. ;) I, too, would probably assume I was going to get some accolades. Not a lot, cuz Westerosi culture is based on an heirarchy of oaths, but still some. Why should he HAVE to explain himself? I mean, everything else aside, Aerys had a couple guys burned to death, without trial, for the great crime of having a relative kidnapped. (OK, come out and die is a bad thing to try to shout at a crown prince, but still!) How could ANYONE not see Aerys as a guy who needed to die?

Oh, wait, 99% of Westerosi can be either competent, or ethical, but never both. ;)

Except they didn't. Aerys was so far gone, his mental issues couldn't be entirely concealed, hence the moniker. But his atrocties were. Catelyn didn't know of any of his actions when Jaime explained what had happened. The people he tortured, Tye wildfire beneath King's landing, all of this was concealed by his retainers. And while part of this is Jaime being self consumed, its not likely anyone would believe the Kingslayer. The truth is too absurd.

[Aedilred]

It would have been great, I think, to have sat in on a private conversation between Barristan and Jaime during Robert's reign, each of them quietly despising the other: Barristan Jaime for breaking his oath to protect the king in the biggest way possible, and Jaime Barristan for standing by all those years and doing nothing to protect anyone from the king, holding his honour above his conscience. And yet each of them also having utmost professional respect for each other as a swordsman.

Or at least, it would have been great in theory. I suspect they hardly spoke to each other at all.

[Math_Mage]

It would have been great, I think, to have sat in on a private conversation between Barristan and Jaime during Robert's reign, each of them quietly despising the other: Barristan Jaime for breaking his oath to protect the king in the biggest way possible, and Jaime Barristan for standing by all those years and doing nothing to protect anyone from the king, holding his honour above his conscience. And yet each of them also having utmost professional respect for each other as a swordsman.

Or at least, it would have been great in theory. I suspect they hardly spoke to each other at all.
It might still happen. Of course, Barristan regards his own service in the Kingsguard as a failure, so there'd be two people despising him.

[Dienekes]

But see, it feels like EVERYONE knew Mad King Aerys was mad, hence the moniker. ;) I, too, would probably assume I was going to get some accolades. Not a lot, cuz Westerosi culture is based on an heirarchy of oaths, but still some. Why should he HAVE to explain himself? I mean, everything else aside, Aerys had a couple guys burned to death, without trial, for the great crime of having a relative kidnapped. (OK, come out and die is a bad thing to try to shout at a crown prince, but still!) How could ANYONE not see Aerys as a guy who needed to die?

Oh, wait, 99% of Westerosi can be either competent, or ethical, but never both. ;)

Well, partially, even a complete idiot should understand the basics of how they look to other people. Not perfectly mind you, but the gist. You just stabbed the king, literally seconds before he was going to be beaten and captured anyway. He was unarmed, and by your own admission just mumbling nonsense over and over again. To everyone who doesn't have the full picture of what's going on, you look like a cowardly, backstabber, who switched sides when it was convenient. It's not the complicated. Hell, I'm sure people told him that, he sure recognized this opinion existed and was prevalent in the books. But he never bothered to explain himself. How would he expect people to know?


Because, even if they saw it, hypocrisy is SO convenient... :smallwink:

I see a difference between leading an open rebellion and stabbing a crazy person in the back when it looked like he was going to lose. Which is exactly what it looked like to everyone, because he couldn't be assed to explain himself.


Oh my glob. Jaime Lannister is an alternate reality Comedian!

Maybe, but here's a difference. A very important difference for me, maybe no one else, but for me it means the world. The Comedian, in the end, was ashamed of the terrible things he had done. He cried to his old enemy, admitting he's a monster and was ashamed of what he had done to women and children. Jaime doesn't. The closest we've ever gotten from him is shame that he could have been a better knight. He doesn't think for a second about how he tossing Bran out the window and ruined his life. He doesn't regret his thoughts to murder Robert. He just blames people for always going back to Aerys, and even after his talks with Brienne that hasn't changed. The closest we get is his semi-prophetic dream while sleeping on the weirwood tree, and even then, it's not shame for any of the real evil he's done. It's just him defending his need to kill Aerys. Sure, he's trying to make things better now. But it's easier to try and make things better, when that means keep backing the same family you've always been backing and gain power for your son.

[Eldan]

Can I just say that I thought this episode was, for the most part, really boring? Shot after shot of characters I don't know or care about getting stabbed, shot and crushed. I caught myself reading other stuff during parts of it.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Can I just say that I thought this episode was, for the most part, really boring? Shot after shot of characters I don't know or care about getting stabbed, shot and crushed. I caught myself reading other stuff during parts of it.

I would not say it was boring, per se, but my suspension of disbelief got killed about 20 minutes in, and never recovered. There seemed to be more wildling south of the wall than north of it, for one thing. For seconds, I wonder why they even need to north army, when the south band can go toe to toe and clearly win against the night's watch. I counted at least a dozen, probably more like a score, of dead crows on screen in the south assault, before I gave it up as stupid. With that attrition rate, the wall should have fallen long before the giants did their thing. And speaking of, why the fact did the archers on the wall need orders to shoot? For Thor's sake, thousands of wildlings supposedly assaulting the wall, you don't even need to aim. And you certainly shouldn't just let the giants hitch up the chains unimpeded. At some point, I fully expected the giant to just pull out a set of lockpicks and get to work on a lock, as calm and relaxed the supposed battle was.

All in all, very disappointing, especially given how much HBO had been pushing the episode.

Grey Wolf

[AdmiralCheez]

I couldn't even tell what was happening in most of the shots. Night battles are terrible for cinematography, especially if you're going to use as many wide shots as they did. There were a lot of times when someone was doing something cool on screen, but I couldn't even tell what side they were on.

[Whoracle]

Not going into plot here, but the Episode fell short. I'll see how it flows when rewatching the whole season, but this episode feels out of place in the season. Blackwater in S2 worked because the whole season was building up to it. This episode didn't work, because the whole season had its focus on other things. I'd rather have this one and E8 swapped around or something, or take this one as the opener for S5. At least from watching it as it's being released.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Not going into plot here, but the Episode fell short. I'll see how it flows when rewatching the whole season, but this episode feels out of place in the season. Blackwater in S2 worked because the whole season was building up to it. This episode didn't work, because the whole season had its focus on other things. I'd rather have this one and E8 swapped around or something, or take this one as the opener for S5. At least from watching it as it's being released.

Yeah, I have to say this episode didn't...it didn't seem to fit in. Compared to past season episode 9's (Baelor, Blackwater, Rains of Castemere) nor did it have the...far reaching impact those seasons had either. Maybe they were trying to buck the trend, but the big focus of this season was not really on the Wall and the impending wilding invasion if for no other reason than...aside from John, Sam, and Aemon, I really can't tell one of the Night's Watch characters from any of the others, let alone their names. Thorne I recognize and Janos Slynt makes himself stand out but I couldn't recognize or tell the difference between a lot of Night's Watch characters and subsequently I didn't really care about their struggle either. Heck, I cared more about the Wildling side of things if for no other reason then Tormund (dude's got charisma!) and Mance! Plus, giants!

The focus this season has been moreso on Tyrion's trial and the aftermath of Joffery's murder than anything else...I honestly don't care about Jon Snow or what he's doing. This almost felt like filler and certainly shouldn't have had an ENTIRE episode devoted to it, even if it did need one to get through everything it needed to. It needed something to break it up and didn't have it. Overall, I've got to say that it's probably the weakest episode of the season...especially after The Mountain and the Viper.

[suha52]

Game Of Thorns: Epic fantasy mixed with period drama, politics and intrigue.

[Otomodachi]

Yeah, I have to say this episode didn't...it didn't seem to fit in. Compared to past season episode 9's (Baelor, Blackwater, Rains of Castemere) nor did it have the...far reaching impact those seasons had either. Maybe they were trying to buck the trend, but the big focus of this season was not really on the Wall and the impending wilding invasion if for no other reason than...aside from John, Sam, and Aemon, I really can't tell one of the Night's Watch characters from any of the others, let alone their names. Thorne I recognize and Janos Slynt makes himself stand out but I couldn't recognize or tell the difference between a lot of Night's Watch characters and subsequently I didn't really care about their struggle either. Heck, I cared more about the Wildling side of things if for no other reason then Tormund (dude's got charisma!) and Mance! Plus, giants!

The focus this season has been moreso on Tyrion's trial and the aftermath of Joffery's murder than anything else...I honestly don't care about Jon Snow or what he's doing. This almost felt like filler and certainly shouldn't have had an ENTIRE episode devoted to it, even if it did need one to get through everything it needed to. It needed something to break it up and didn't have it. Overall, I've got to say that it's probably the weakest episode of the season...especially after The Mountain and the Viper.

Well, as for the pressure inherent in Jon Snow's section of the story, I have to wonder why

the Horn of Winter was essentially dropped from the TV show plot. Without the Horn of Winter, the wildling army is pretty much de-fanged. In the books, Mance had a horn that was supposedly enchanted to collapse the wall if it was sounded- but that was avoided, thankfully. Was this mentioned at all in the show? Without it, attacking the wall is pretty pointless.

And yes, the numbers involved on the Westerosi side of the wall were pretty borked.

There were too many wildlings AND too many Watchmen. For me, this season has been openly insulting to my intelligence. The ironborn fight in the Dreadfort; Sansa's hair-change-and-black-leather "HAI IA M EVIL SANSAS!"; this sad excuse for an episode. On a personal level, I've been waiting a long dang time for Stannis to do his heroic appearance and they shove it back another episode so Jon Snow can have a fabricated BAMF scene?

Jon- "I've got to go out there!"
Sam- "But you don't have orders!"
Jon- "BUT IT MUST BE DONE!"

Well, Jon was supposed to have been arrested for insubordination after assuming command of the ramparts, and WAS ordered to essentially commit suicide by trying to assassinate Mance, and IT DOESN'T NEED TO BE DONE. So can someone tell me the POINT of these changes other than to simplify everything in a BAD way? This season might be the one that finally gets to to quit this show, as is stands now. I really hope Episode 10 is very strong. :(

Edit: a positive note- there was one really good, single shot long-take during the new episode that I thought was a good piece of cinematography.

[Flickerdart]

the Horn of Winter was essentially dropped from the TV show plot. Without the Horn of Winter, the wildling army is pretty much de-fanged. In the books, Mance had a horn that was supposedly enchanted to collapse the wall if it was sounded- but that was avoided, thankfully. Was this mentioned at all in the show? Without it, attacking the wall is pretty pointless.

Wasn't the Horn of Winter only revealed to Jon after he went to kill Mance, when Mance is convincing Jon to convince the Night's Watch to open the gates and let them through?

[Otomodachi]

Wasn't the Horn of Winter only revealed to Jon after he went to kill Mance, when Mance is convincing Jon to convince the Night's Watch to open the gates and let them through?

I *THINK* he found out about it when he was first living with the Wildlings as a mole. I THINK. I library'd the series, so I don't have a book handy to check and could be wrong.

Also, Jon is later told the horn was a fake, but, again, THAT part comes down to how reliable you think Tormund is- in my case, fairly, but still, THAT was what lent urgency to the battle at the Wall. The wildlings weren't just going to over-run Westeros- they were going to turn the Others threat (white walker) from a virtual red herring (they can't cross the wall!) into an actual problem.

[Math_Mage]

When climbing the Wall, Ygritte mentions that it's a pity they didn't find the Horn of Joramun. Then, when Jon is sent to Mance, Mance claims to have found the horn and shows it to Jon, but says he'd rather not blow it because they'd like to keep the Wall up against the Others, thank you very much. The difference between this and not including the Horn in the plot is, as far as we know, minimal--though it may become significant in later books, I suppose.

[Legato Endless]

There's an erstwhile idea that the horn Ghost finds amid Tye dragonglass buried in the mound in CoK was the real artifact, especially considering the mythic description of the horn is too outlandish. Still, it might be a red herring whose only real significance was a propaganda tool for Mance in the war.

[Aedilred]

I thought the episode was ok, but there were a couple of things that rang a bit of a false note:

Firstly, like has been mentioned, too many combatants, and too many death scenes. Having had it repeatedly reinforced how few Watch members there are, watching them get slaughtered felt a bit "off". I wasn't really a fan of Jon and Ygritte getting a soap-opera "goodbye" moment in the midst of all the mayhem either, but I'm not going to lose sleep over it.

Secondly, like at Craster's Keep, there was no strategy or real command ability being displayed here. This was Jon's moment to shine, and he didn't really make a single meaningful decision to help save the day. Maybe sending Grenn and his men into the tunnel, but Thorne or any other commander would have done the same. The Watch won because they fought harder and Jon got lucky, not because of any other factors.

Thirdly, changing the decision to try to assassinate Mance from the Wall's commanders' to Jon's. It runs so counter to all of Jon's character arc that it's just baffling. He likes and respects Mance; he's starting to think the Wildlings aren't the real enemy; if left in command (which in the show he effectively is) you'd have thought his instinct would be to come to terms with Mance rather than try to kill him*. It's also pretty despicable to approach under a flag of truce and try to kill your opponent, not really Jon Snow territory. The only reason he tried to do so in ASoS was because he was ordered to and doesn't have a choice. Making it his decision, his idea, in fact, seems baffling, and forcing the issue.

Would it really have been so hard to have Janos reassume command and order Jon to do it?


Indeed, this is pretty much the first thing he does when he's actually put in command!

[Killer Angel]

Thirdly, changing the decision to try to assassinate Mance from the Wall's commanders' to Jon's. It runs so counter to all of Jon's character arc that it's just baffling. He likes and respects Mance; he's starting to think the Wildlings aren't the real enemy; if left in command (which in the show he effectively is) you'd have thought his instinct would be to come to terms with Mance rather than try to kill him*. It's also pretty despicable to approach under a flag of truce and try to kill your opponent, not really Jon Snow territory. The only reason he tried to do so in ASoS was because he was ordered to and doesn't have a choice. Making it his decision, his idea, in fact, seems baffling, and forcing the issue.

:smallsigh:
Yeah, that was kinda stupid.
...unless it's a smart move from the director: every character must have something despicable, just to lessen the viewer's pain, in case of death... :smalltongue:

[Dracon1us]

Oh my glob. Jaime Lannister is an alternate reality Comedian!

great quote, But to me the Comedian is a worst human being :smallwink:

[AtlanteanTroll]

Who said Jon was trying to assassinate? :smallconfused:

[Aedilred]

Who said Jon was trying to assassinate? :smallconfused:
Well, what would you call it? I guess it's possible he's going to challenge Mance to single combat, but if anything that's an even worse plan than trying to murder him would be (especially since Mance has no reason to accept).

[Eldan]

I'd like to offer a song for the death of what felt like the deepest, most emotional character in the episode. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXMYrjMc6qs) Because I randomly found it in an old bookmark collection again.

[Legato Endless]

I especially like their rendition of the Rains of Castamere.

[Dienekes]

I thought the episode was ok, but there were a couple of things that rang a bit of a false note:

Firstly, like has been mentioned, too many combatants, and too many death scenes. Having had it repeatedly reinforced how few Watch members there are, watching them get slaughtered felt a bit "off". I wasn't really a fan of Jon and Ygritte getting a soap-opera "goodbye" moment in the midst of all the mayhem either, but I'm not going to lose sleep over it.

Secondly, like at Craster's Keep, there was no strategy or real command ability being displayed here. This was Jon's moment to shine, and he didn't really make a single meaningful decision to help save the day. Maybe sending Grenn and his men into the tunnel, but Thorne or any other commander would have done the same. The Watch won because they fought harder and Jon got lucky, not because of any other factors.

Thirdly, changing the decision to try to assassinate Mance from the Wall's commanders' to Jon's. It runs so counter to all of Jon's character arc that it's just baffling. He likes and respects Mance; he's starting to think the Wildlings aren't the real enemy; if left in command (which in the show he effectively is) you'd have thought his instinct would be to come to terms with Mance rather than try to kill him*. It's also pretty despicable to approach under a flag of truce and try to kill your opponent, not really Jon Snow territory. The only reason he tried to do so in ASoS was because he was ordered to and doesn't have a choice. Making it his decision, his idea, in fact, seems baffling, and forcing the issue.

Would it really have been so hard to have Janos reassume command and order Jon to do it?


Indeed, this is pretty much the first thing he does when he's actually put in command!

If I may make a rather halfhearted rebuttal.

The show never made as big a deal about Mance as the book did. Now, I'm not saying I like that change (they basically wasted Julius Caesar), but I don't think it runs contrary to the Show!Jon because Show!Jon only really cared about Ygritte, and maybe, maybe, Tormund.

As to the other thing, actually, to me this set up makes more sense to what comes later. Jon's appointment as the Lord Commander always rang false for me. I thought it and the 3 Dothraki warriors who were with Dany but never do anything were the weakest parts of the entire series. The guy was just on trial, you're still not very sure if he's loyal and you're appointing him Lord Commander? Why? Having Jon go out on his own accord to end the fight that they can't win gives him the dramatic hero angle that could make the voting make more sense.

[Otomodachi]

If I may make a rather halfhearted rebuttal.

The show never made as big a deal about Mance as the book did. Now, I'm not saying I like that change (they basically wasted Julius Caesar), but I don't think it runs contrary to the Show!Jon because Show!Jon only really cared about Ygritte, and maybe, maybe, Tormund.

As to the other thing, actually, to me this set up makes more sense to what comes later. Jon's appointment as the Lord Commander always rang false for me. I thought it and the 3 Dothraki warriors who were with Dany but never do anything were the weakest parts of the entire series. The guy was just on trial, you're still not very sure if he's loyal and you're appointing him Lord Commander? Why? Having Jon go out on his own accord to end the fight that they can't win gives him the dramatic hero angle that could make the voting make more sense.

Well, I mean the Night's Watch is effectively an elective monarchy. It's a strict, military hierarchy but the commander is elected when the old one dies. And then I realized I have no idea what event actually triggered the election that Jon Snow won. Was it because of Stannis? Was it because someone died? Was there an election with Mormont didn't come back than I forgot? Was it just a delayed election because the Wall was under attack? Why can't I remember this? IS there a rational? A friend and I both decided recently we need to re-read the series, we were apparently more right than I thought.

[Aedilred]

Well, I mean the Night's Watch is effectively an elective monarchy. It's a strict, military hierarchy but the commander is elected when the old one dies. And then I realized I have no idea what event actually triggered the election that Jon Snow won. Was it because of Stannis? Was it because someone died? Was there an election with Mormont didn't come back than I forgot? Was it just a delayed election because the Wall was under attack? Why can't I remember this? IS there a rational? A friend and I both decided recently we need to re-read the series, we were apparently more right than I thought.
Yeah, it was that a successor to Mormont was never actually appointed. From his death onwards the Watch had been pretty much constantly in battle and hadn't had the opportunity to gather together the senior officers to choose a new commander.

While Jon's election was indeed a little "cheesy", it did make a degree of sense in context: he was the hero of the battle of Castle Black, he seemed to have been recognised as Mormont's heir apparent, and while there were two better options, between them they were splitting the vote against Janos Slynt, who would have been a disaster. Under normal circumstances they might have worked things out, but Stannis was putting pressure on them to choose asap, so they both threw their weight behind a compromise candidate. Those members of the Watch who didn't hold a grudge against Jon and had been around long enough to know what's what didn't seem to have any serious questions over his ultimate loyalty. The show, having pared down the characters, might struggle to portray the politics so convincingly, and need a "better" reason to justify his election.

[Closet_Skeleton]

The election was just put off due to the Wildling threat. Stannis intervenes but only because it takes too long because the tradition is to keep re-voting until someone gets a majority, so he forces them to hurry up.

[ChaosArchon]

... Oh my god.... that was incredible

[JustPlayItLoud]

... Oh my god.... that was incredible

There were a few moments that were unbelievably, viscerally satisfying.

[Derthric]

Overall I liked this finale and season, though I am curious where they are going to go with some of the characters storylines going forward since they have chewed through some of the storylines from the books.

Why no Lady Stoneheart!? I lost 5 bucks betting she would appear at the end of this episode. But no such luck for me.

I think it would have been nice for Tyrion to hear the truth about his wife, really help explain just how broken he was and how much of that came from what Tywin had done to him.

And I am ok with Jon not being elected to the Lord Commander position, the politics of it all would need more of a setup than they had here.

[Math_Mage]

If Varys is getting on a ship with Tyrion, what happens to the ending of Book 5?

[Livius]

If Varys is getting on a ship with Tyrion, what happens to the ending of Book 5?

They'll probably have him take Illyrio's place to introduce Griff + friends next season then leave for some "unfinished business" early in the season where the Book 5 ending is in episode 9/10 (either season 5 or 6).

[Ace Mace]

Anyone else notice the irony in premiering this episode on Father's Day? Also, the fight between Brienne and the Hound is my favorite action scene from the whole series thus far. A great episode, probably the best of the season. Maybe The Mountain and the Viper or the Gods of Law and Men might be better, but definitely top three for the season. One issue I had with the episode was my favorite character wasn't in it:
Seriously, where the heck is Lancel Lannister? He's like the best character. And I guess now he's lord of Casterly Rock. I don't who else can make the claim to that land.

[Ramza00]

Seriously, where the heck is Lancel Lannister? He's like the best character. And I guess now he's lord of Casterly Rock. I don't who else can make the claim to that land.[/spoiler]
They did show Lancel's father, Kevin Lannister in the first season. That said they kinda not show Kevan anymore times for having minor characters have lots of talking parts distracts non readers from the books and slows the show down.

[JustPlayItLoud]

Anyone else notice the irony in premiering this episode on Father's Day? Also, the fight between Brienne and the Hound is my favorite action scene from the whole series thus far. A great episode, probably the best of the season. Maybe The Mountain and the Viper or the Gods of Law and Men might be better, but definitely top three for the season. One issue I had with the episode was my favorite character wasn't in it:
Seriously, where the heck is Lancel Lannister? He's like the best character. And I guess now he's lord of Casterly Rock. I don't who else can make the claim to that land.

Brienne v. The Hound was the best one on one in the show so far. The Viper and the Mountain was cool, but this fight was a brutal brawl. Much more how fights between armored warriors tended to go sometimes. I heard his book death is much less awesome.

[AtlanteanTroll]

Why no Lady Stoneheart!? I lost 5 bucks betting she would appear at the end of this episode. But no such luck for me.

I think it would have been nice for Tyrion to hear the truth about his wife, really help explain just how broken he was and how much of that came from what Tywin had done to him.

And I am ok with Jon not being elected to the Lord Commander position, the politics of it all would need more of a setup than they had here.

1st point: I'm glad. As an Unsullied who doesn't mind spoilers here and there, she sounds like an awful character.

2nd point: Eh. I liked the changes to that scene, all around.

3rd point: It'll be happening soon enough.

[Math_Mage]

Brienne v. The Hound was the best one on one in the show so far. The Viper and the Mountain was cool, but this fight was a brutal brawl. Much more how fights between armored warriors tended to go sometimes. I heard his book death is much less awesome.
What death? :smallwink:

[Sith_Happens]

Wow, Westeros celebrates Father's Day a lot differently.

[happyturtle]

Tyrion: "I'm innocent! I'm not a kinslayer!"
...
...
...

"Uh... about that...."

[ChaosArchon]

Tyrion: "I'm innocent! I'm not a kinslayer!"
...
...
...

"Uh... about that...."

I like this also after this episode, I realize why all the book readers love Stannis

[Eldan]

I liked him long before this point, actually. But it helped, that he's probably the only contender left who would actually listen and agree when someone tells him "If you want to be king, defend the realm first".

[Killer Angel]

There were a few moments that were unbelievably, viscerally satisfying.

especially a certain death. :smallbiggrin:

(in the book was even slightly better, IMO)

[Swaoeaeieu]

I just love that Varys walks away from the boat. Sees the castle at full alarm and just walks back and sits in the cargo hold with a complete "Screw this place, i am leaving" face. That man is 100% done with that city and it looked awsome.

And was i the only one surprised by the 'Stanis inquisition' or did someone else not see that coming too?

overal amazing episode. and now we go back too waiting for season 5.

[Math_Mage]

I just love that Varys walks away from the boat. Sees the castle at full alarm and just walks back and sits in the cargo hold with a complete "Screw this place, i am leaving" face. That man is 100% done with that city and it looked awsome.

And was i the only one surprised by the 'Stanis inquisition' or did someone else not see that coming too?

overal amazing episode. and now we go back too waiting for season 5.
These four scenes, with the third scene captioned "Nope" and the fourth scene captioned "Nope nope nope". Someone make it.

[Aedilred]

Damn it, HBO. It seems they just didn't have the nerve, and as such the final Lannister scene was... I don't want to say wrong, but "completely missing the point" wouldn't be far off the mark. Maybe this was just because they didn't have the guts to give us such a heartbreaking scene, but having gone out of their way to highlight the Jaime/Tyrion relationship this season, and to foreshadow this event as long ago as Season 1, they obviously just lost their nerve.

So for those who remember, recall the "truth game" Tyrion, Bronn and Shae played in his tent back in S1 where Tyrion told them about his brief marriage to a girl?

What Tyrion told us happened was that he and Jaime met a girl being pursued by rapists; while Jaime chased off her assailants, Tyrion looked after her, they had a whirlwind romance, fell in love, got married... and then Tywin revealed that in fact the whole thing was a setup, the girl (Tysha) was a prostitute Jaime had hired and Tyrion was a fool - and got his whole garrison to "use" her to teach Tyrion a lesson before dismissing her from the castle. Bronn - "I would have killed the man who did that to me."
Here, we revisited that.
Tysha was for real. She actually did fall for Tyrion, the marriage was genuine, and Tywin had her gang-raped and thrown into the street for no reason other than his pride. Tywin told Tyrion she was a whore to make him feel a fool and got Jaime to lie about having hired her. Jaime had felt guilty about this ever since, and when breaking Tyrion out finally told him the truth.

And this was, in fact, the whole point. It's a seminal moment for Jaime, belatedly putting justice and the truth above his relationship with just about the one person who actually trusts and cares about him for him. It's also a critical moment for Tyrion, where he finally gets justice for a wrong he'd long felt but never quite understood, yet loses some of his humanity.

It also explains why Tyrion took such a risk in going to confront Tywin in the first place, and why he took such offence at Tywin's repeated use of "whore" to describe her, which makes less sense in the show given that Shae was, and had just been proven so.

I can't help but feel they bungled it. Whether they were playing it safe because they were worried about people losing sympathy for Jaime, or for Tyrion, or because the revelation is so horrible, or because the breach between two characters who obviously care about each other more than almost any remaining people on the show is so heartbreaking, or what, it just didn't quite work. I didn't get the feeling of righteous, murderous anger and justice from Tyrion that should make it such a bittersweet feelgood-though-it's-wrong moment. Somehow, they managed to make Tywin look almost like a victim, when this is should really be the final step into Complete Monster All Along territory. Not good enough. Annoyed.


The rest of the episode was fine, nothing particularly special, apart from maybe Arya's "goodbye" to the Hound and subsequent leaving of Westeros. The opening scene at the Wall was initially pretty good, but again I thought it lacked "punch" - partly because the fight choreography didn't display the size of the wildling army or the massive scale of the rout as well as it might have done, partly because they hung around too long after the shock reveal of who had come to save the Wall. Good acting from everyone involved, but average directing and editing, I thought.

Half-decent episode let down, for me, by a failure to deliver properly what should have been the key moment of the entire season.

[Math_Mage]

Okay, but the thing is, that moment only pays off for book-readers and the most dedicated show-viewers. For the rest, it's a callback to a moment long since forgotten. If they wanted to build up to the Tysha reveal, they would have had Shae mention her at some point during her conversations with Tyrion. (Which would probably have done a lot to improve those scenes in season 3, frankly.)

And if it means Tyrion doesn't repeat "where do whores go?" all through the next two seasons, so much the better.

[Aedilred]

Okay, but the thing is, that moment only pays off for book-readers and the most dedicated show-viewers. For the rest, it's a callback to a moment long since forgotten. If they wanted to build up to the Tysha reveal, they would have had Shae mention her at some point during her conversations with Tyrion. (Which would probably have done a lot to improve those scenes in season 3, frankly.)

And if it means Tyrion doesn't repeat "where do whores go?" all through the next two seasons, so much the better.
I'm going to go "yes and no" as I find myself doing so often these days. It looks pretty obvious that the first season scene was there to foreshadow this. If you can't remember - notwithstanding that a half-decent memory is a bit of a prerequisite for this sort of show - that's what the recaps at the start of the episodes are for. Even if not that then Jaime's telling the story would have served as a reminder to jog memories of those who remember and fill in those who don't. What was that scene in S1 there for otherwise? Just a generic "Tywin's a bit of a tool"? Plenty of other ways of showing that.

But you are right that perhaps it wouldn't have worked in context. That's still a failing on the show's part for not creating the right context. How much waffle has been talked this season when that could have been slipped back in? How long did Tyrion go on about Orson Lannister and beetles for? Could we seriously not have made time to mention Tysha in all of that?

Now, it's difficult for me to judge what it's like for an "Unsullied" watching that scene without any knowledge of the original context. Perhaps it's good enough. It was by no means a terrible scene. But I felt while it was ok, it could have been so much better, and there really wasn't any good reason to make the change other than a failure of nerve on the part of the showrunners. Usually the show works best in these scenes where it preserves Martin's original dialogue. The show has had some good original scenes, no doubt, and has made some sensible editorial decisions, but in the really pivotal moments I've felt for the last couple of seasons that where they've changed the dialogue substantially the replacement material just isn't as good, and that pattern was borne out here.

I mean, examined in the cold light of day it just doesn't even make that much sense. Shae is a whore. She betrayed him in court for money, and now she's in bed with his father and has just tried to kill him. So he kills her, ok, that's obviously quite upsetting, but you can see where that's come from. That might be enough to drive him to murder Tywin, even if it doesn't carry anywhere near the same weight as the book version - but the "don't call her a whore" business... She is a woman who has sex with men for money, and has just demonstrated that. So why such sensitivity over referring to her by her professional title? Was it just a pride thing, being able to tell his father what not to do and punish him when he didn't? If so again they didn't really bring that across either. It didn't quite hang together even as presented.

Plus, as I say, it's more than just Tyrion affected here; it has implications for Jaime as well. His character's still all over the place and that key sacrifice moment will now never arrive.

I have defended the show in the past, particularly in S2 when a lot of people complained about screwed up character arcs for Arya. But this was a massive let-down, and I find the decision quite difficult to defend.

On your point about Book 5, though, I completely agree. Although I'd happily cut out about 80% of that book anyway.

[Sith_Happens]

Now, it's difficult for me to judge what it's like for an "Unsullied" watching that scene without any knowledge of the original context.

As someone who fits that description I think I'll chime in.

To me it was a near-perfect scene with a lot of punch. Tyrion is escaping from the last and deadliest of a decades-long string of thoroughly-undeserved abuses by his own father, and finally decides that he's done taking it lying down. So he sneaks into the son-of-a-bitch's chambers (to what end is unclear, he can't have been expecting to win if it had come to a fight and stabbing someone in their sleep generally requires you to be able to reach their vulnerable bits from the floor), and who does he find? The woman who broke his heart.

That was the moment that Tyrion knew for sure his old man had to die. As far as being sensitive over Tywin calling Shae a whore, it's because he's obviously incredibly not over her, and calling her a whore is how Tyrion drove her away in the first place. So damned if he's going to let anyone else do it.

[Killer Angel]

Don't you believe it's the case to avoid the spoiler tag for the season 4 episodes?
I understand spoilers for the books, but after all, we are discussing the show.

[happyturtle]

Relevant:

Ok, put it this way.

The Hairy Modfather: Please use spoilers for information that is less than seven days old (at a minimum) from the television series, or as yet unrevealed in the television series. You may also wish to use spoilers for information older than that, seven days is just a minimum.

Additionally, please mark your spoilers with which episode and/or book you should have read first.

If you enter the thread and are not concerned with spoilers, use the Spoilers > Show All drop down menu to show all spoilers in on the page (not just the post it is attached to).

As for the Tyrion and Jaime scene:
I can respect the show's decision not to have the Tysha reveal happen here. In the book, this was the first time Tyrion had seen Jaime since they split up at Winterfell, back in early book one. It's been about two years, I think. So long that Jaime really didn't know whether Tyrion was innocent, he only felt that he owed him because of Tysha. And Tyrion has no reason to expect him, and every reason to question why Jaime would save him.

In the show, Jaime has been supporting Tyrion through the trial, trying to find a way to save his brother's life. Tyrion might not expect a midnight rescue, but it isn't going to surprise him that Jaime would do it. Jaime isn't doing it out of guilt - he's doing it out of love. And so the Tysha revelation coming here just doesn't fit.

And it's possible that in the show universe, Jaime doesn't feel any guilt about it, because he believed his father when Tywin said she was a whore after Lannister gold. Maybe the story of Tysha's innocence will reach Tyrion some other way. Maybe it won't come up again at all unless Tysha appears (or is revealed) in the last two books.

[Kato]

Brienne v. The Hound was the best one on one in the show so far. The Viper and the Mountain was cool, but this fight was a brutal brawl. Much more how fights between armored warriors tended to go sometimes. I heard his book death is much less awesome.


What death? :smallwink:
Yeah, what are you talking about?

I swear to the Seven if we don't see Sandor again that will seriously spoil the series for me. Such a great character, though by now I have a hard time saying which version I prefer.
The fight was pretty cool, though. Albeit having Arya and Brienne meet... well, okay.




I liked him long before this point, actually. But it helped, that he's probably the only contender left who would actually listen and agree when someone tells him "If you want to be king, defend the realm first".

Stannis is great. Same for Davos. If anyone deserves to rule the kingdom at this point, it's him. Seriously, I wish the wouldn't have that demon summoning, people burning, royals screwing witch in their team... I mean, I guess if LoL is actually an enemy of the White Walkers that's fine but her methods are pretty drastic...


Overall I was fine with the episode... some changes from the events in the books were a bit weird but meh, I can totally live with it. Especially after the rather let down last episode. Though, no offense to the actor but... please get a new Mance :smallfrown:

[Math_Mage]

Overall I was fine with the episode... some changes from the events in the books were a bit weird but meh, I can totally live with it. Especially after the rather let down last episode. Though, no offense to the actor but... please get a new Mance :smallfrown:
I thought Mance was great.

A shame the Brienne&Sandor scene went and ruined Podrick's development. How am I supposed to believe in his hidden competence now?

[Aedilred]

I've no problem with Ciaran Hinds as Mance. Although that's possibly because I look at him and think Julius Caesar as much as anything.

[Flickerdart]

Stannis is great. Same for Davos. If anyone deserves to rule the kingdom at this point, it's him. Seriously, I wish the wouldn't have that demon summoning, people burning, royals screwing witch in their team... I mean, I guess if LoL is actually an enemy of the White Walkers that's fine but her methods are pretty drastic...

If this show had even one powerful character who was reasonable and a nice guy, it would be kind of missing the point.


A shame the Brienne&Sandor scene went and ruined Podrick's development. How am I supposed to believe in his hidden competence now?
Podrick is only competent between the sheets.

[Sith_Happens]

If this show had even one powerful character who was reasonable and a nice guy, it would be kind of missing the point.

It's had plenty, actually. Keyword "had.":smalltongue:

[Dr.Epic]

Man, Tyrion is the best character ever!
He's smart, charismatic, and he killed his father! Who doesn't want all that?

[Closet_Skeleton]

Mance without his musical instrument just isn't Manse.

He's probably the right age, but I always pictured Manse as younger due to him fitting the jovial minstrel trope.

[Eldan]

At the very least, he never seemed that... glum? Scowly? Stern? ... to me.

[Dienekes]

The actor who plays Mance is great, and I've seen him play the stern and jovial and intelligent guy before perfectly. The problem is the show cut out everything about Mance that made him Mance and instead gave us some guy that the wildlings are following... because.

As to the episode itself.
Pretty good. I can understand why they're delaying he reveal of Stoneheart, though it would have made an awesome final visual in the same manner as the S1 and S2 finale moments.

Bloodraven doesn't look nearly as interesting as he's described in the books. Though, the actions of the show make the Jojen paste theory seem more likely.

Completely changing the interaction between Jaime and Tyrion was an unwelcome change. The book scene is just so much more powerful and sets Tyrion up for his next path. I know they haven't mentioned her since season 1, but you know what made a great opportunity for bringing her up again? Jaime's interaction with Tyrion. Hell, reminiscing about those that have loved him would have been a great segue into that topic right before the duel to decide his fate. Instead we got beetles.

The Brienne Hound fight was great, though part of me is annoyed that the Hound lost, since book!Hound is the only character besides Drogo and Strong Belwas who can make the claim he never gets beaten, and was in the running with Jaime for best swordsman in Westeros. The show writers must really like Brienne, because they've given her quite a power boost from the books.

Pod does nothing in a fight, and is generally useless. Come on now, his one defining feature in the books was even when he can't do anything he always tries to help. That's why he's Pod.

I'm legitimately surprised that the writers didn't try to make Stannis look bad for his big moment. They're on record saying they hate him for killing Renly, and have spent the majority of the show turning him into a caricature of all his negative qualities.

[CWater]

They did well with the scene where Tyrion kills Tywin and Shae, I've read the books so there's rarely any suspense for me in watching the show, but this was an exception. I'm actually happy that the whole Tysha story was removed. I hope it doesn't come up later either, it always annoyed me in the book.

I agree with many others here in that episode 9 was boring.. We're going to spend the whole episode here at the wall? Seriously? *yawn* And Jon choosing to go to the wildlings to assasinate Mance?:smallsigh:

That said, I did like Stannis' entry. He's a bit stiff (an understatement:smalltongue:) personality, but I kind of like the dude.

Brienne VS Sandor was a cool fight in all its brutality, my only issue with it was: Uh.. Why are they fighting? Over Arya? Really?

And no Stoneheart? That was really a surprise. I thought they would have had her in the final scene to end the season with.

[Closet_Skeleton]

This episode would have been so much more awesome if Guillermo Del Toro could have been drafted in to direct just Bran's scene. Then we'd have had the proper Bloodraven from the books or something even better rather than Merlin with a bit of twig round his arm.

[Dallas-Dakota]

Brienne VS Sandor was a cool fight in all its brutality, my only issue with it was: Uh.. Why are they fighting? Over Arya? Really?


Well Sandor is trying to figure out what to do now. His idea of trying to sell Arya to the Veil has failed. With that amount of money he could've gone a fair while.
Arya, to him represents a figure he can use because she's important, politically and to her remaining family. Which means he can use her as leverage in a very-fast changing world. As the unbeaten swordsman of Westeros the chances of some 'unknown' figure beating him aren't that large in his eyes.
Aside from his pure prowess as a fighter, he doesn't have much left really, except Arya Stark which he can use as leverage in almost any negotiation.(Because even the factions not directly interested in her, would be interested her because a good deal of the big factions are)

Brianna isn't the smartest gal around. She did not at all plan on encountering Arya. Brianna takes her vow more seriously then a ancient norseman and thus is on a straight one way train of thought ''take care of Arya.'' since that is what she promised her mother. She's used to people underestimating her because she's a woman and is on a decent winning streak right now, in combat, which gives her extra confidence to take on the mountain.

To conclude: Not the smartest people around, both with not that many ideas except that Arya is something they either need to survive or to uphold their vows. and one of them is caught off guard by this new situation.
And both are pretty used to solving their problems with violence.

Yeah, that was bound to end up in a fight.

Podrick doing absolutely...nothing, was dissapointing. He always tries to help, he always has. Though what he could've done...Arya with her small figure and style of waterdancer could easily dissapear in the rocky enviroment. Especially with some of the biggest baddest swordfighters* of Westeros clashing as a distraction. And Podrick knows without somebody to lead him, he would be so lost.

*might not be presented that way in the book, but it is in the series.

[Eldan]

He could at least have thrown a few rocks at the hound or something.

[Killer Angel]

Relevant:


I forgot about the "one week" time limit (so this settles the issue), but when we have spoilers both for the episodes AND the books, to use the option "show all spoilers", may be not the optimal solution...

[Aedilred]

Arya and the Hound have an odd relationship. When thinking about things coldly, he is no doubt doing it for the ransom. But on the other hand he seems more protective of her than you'd expect of a prisoner you only care about for a ransom, and is tolerant, indulgent and trusting of her in a way he isn't of pretty much anyone else. At the Red Wedding he grabbed her and got out at risk to himself, while he could easily have just done a runner himself, or sold her to the Freys/Boltons (who would likely have been thrilled to get their hands on another Stark). I can't remember the details of his argument with Polliver but iirc that was at least in part sparked by Polliver's attitude towards Arya. He's told her about how he got burned, which on the show he hasn't done for anyone, and in the book he'd previously only told Sansa, and although he knows she's planning to kill him he doesn't restrain her at night and even imparts some wisdom and experience on how to fight and kill. For her part, Arya doesn't try to escape or kill him while he's asleep, in the book had by this point taken him off her list, and seems to feel safe with him in a way she hasn't since she had Jaqen looking out for her. There is an odd companionship there.

So I think as much as anything the fight here was sparked - the misunderstanding over Jaime notwithstanding - by the Hound's feeling instinctively protective and not wanting anyone to take Arya away, rather than any financial calculation over what he stood to lose. Also both he and Brienne are stubborn individuals, so it was never likely to end peacefully.

[Chen]

He could at least have thrown a few rocks at the hound or something.

Not terribly honorable. I doubt Brienne would have stood for it. Even though she said she wasn't a knight, she still seems to follow a similar code of honor.

[Dienekes]

On Sandor, Arya, and the fight

The fight itself makes perfect sense when presented with the characters. Brienne vowed to find and protect Arya. Here she found her in the arms of the Hound who has a reputation nearly as vile as his brothers. She would want to get Arya away from the man who is no doubt doing terrible things to her. You can even tell when she asks if the Hound is protecting Arya that she doesn't believe the man she's heard about would ever protect someone as she vowed. In fact it's more probable that, considering his reputation, he's done some horrible things to her.

For Sandor, all he sees at first is some girl that he may have only heard in name about this big weird girl who thinks she's a knight. But dressed in Lannister armor and using a priceless Lannister sword, demanding that he hand over Arya. Since the trip itself is to protect Arya he could not give her up. So it's two characters with no reason to trust each other looking after what they think is the girls best interests.

Now, Sandor's relationships with everyone is a bit more complex and way better explained in the series though it is vaguely brought up a few times. Sandor wants to be a knight, the kind of knight he heard about in his stories as a child. The kind who fought for good and defended fair maidens, and everything. Then, his brother, the monster that burned him, tormented him. The one who GRRM said himself was the most vile person in a series that contains the likes of Ramsay and Joffrey, became a knight. Not just any knight, one knighted by Rhaegar Targaryen himself. After that point he realized that knights were all a joke, just killers dressed up in stupid romantic notions. Despite his nihilism, he continues acting vaguely knightlike. He holds his vows seriously, protects his charge (despite the charge being an utter bastard, but that simply reinforces his idea that it's all pointless pageantry anyway). Notice that even when he killed the butcher's boy, he missed out on the whole trial and confrontation between Arya, Sansa, Joffrey, Ned, Cersei, and Robert. As far as he knew when he was sent out, there was some boy that attacked the prince and mangled him before running off. Which is an offense punishable by death, so he killed him.

Then we get to Sansa. A beautiful girl, literally from one of the stories of his youth. A princess trapped in a tower of enemies. Again, something shown clearer in the books, Sandor is just about the only one who helps her. Never hits her, even when Joffrey demands it. And when he finally has enough of Joffrey, and is going to bolt from the fire. The first thing he does is try and save Sansa. She refuses to go with him, of course, and he makes rapey threats because that's the kind of man he wishes to be seen as. But he doesn't act on them and just bolts.

Until we get to Arya. So, we find Sandor again at his lowest point. He broke his vow to protect Joffrey, who was a **** anyway. Has no one to support him. Nowhere to go. He was captured drunk by the Brotherhood Without Banners. He sees Arya, captures her entirely for selfish reasons of getting that ransom. However, he can't get himself to do the coldly rational thing. Let's be honest, the Lannisters would probably be willing to pay more for her than the Starks would simply because they have more money. No, instead he goes traveling from one end of the kingdom to the other with this girl who constantly says she hates him and has him on her hit list. Risks his life to save her, numerous times, and despite talking like an utter loathsome jackass never actually does anything bad (the stealing from the farmers thing was added completely for the show to give Arya a reason to keep hating him). This is reflected in Arya's big decision on what to do with him. In the books, she had been struggling for some time on whether or not he belongs on her list. Several times she forgot to add him, or remembers to add him at the last second. She struggles with whether or not she can let her anger go with new evidence for the man's complicated set of morals, or should she stay firm to her notions that death is what he deserves for killing Micah. In the end, she determines that no, she can't forgive him and leaves him to die a slow, painful death.


Not terribly honorable. I doubt Brienne would have stood for it. Even though she said she wasn't a knight, she still seems to follow a similar code of honor.

In the books there is a fight with similar choreography as the one with the episode that haves Pod save her by throwing rocks at the enemy. She's cool with it, since, you know, she isn't dead.

[Flickerdart]

Brienne might not be as good as the Hound, but Valyrian steel helps even those odds. Magic swords, baby!

[Otomodachi]

Why did Stannis have evil music when he showed up TO SAVE THE DAY?!?!? Q.Q

[Mutant Sheep]

Why did Stannis have evil music when he showed up TO SAVE THE DAY?!?!? Q.Q

Aside from the showmakers hating Stannis, we are meant to have some empathy for the wildlings. The idiotic blatantly-evil cannibal thing was idiotic, but Mance is meant to be pretty sympathetic. Add that to Stannis hate, and you get "look at these cruel mystery knights cutting down the brave Free Folk, the meanies." At least, I think that's the gist of what they intended.:smallwink::smallbiggrin:

I can't wait to see the Wall in season 5. Which is a massive change from every other season, where it was boring as all hell. Turns out that, just like when Tyrion was up there, you need another major character to chat with Jon or its the Boring Iceberg of Jackasses.

[Legato Endless]

Aside from the showmakers hating Stannis, we are meant to have some empathy for the wildlings. The idiotic blatantly-evil cannibal thing was idiotic, but Mance is meant to be pretty sympathetic. Add that to Stannis hate, and you get "look at these cruel mystery knights cutting down the brave Free Folk, the meanies." At least, I think that's the gist of what they intended.:smallwink::smallbiggrin:

I really wish their proclivities weren't so dreadfully obvious. A big selling point for the books is the neutrality in tone (Minus that those silly chapters with Dorkstar.) The fact that Stannis has ardent supporters and fans who absolutely hate him is one of the fun things.

[shadow_archmagi]

I didn't get any of those vibes. Stannis's portrayal here was one of the show's most flattering; he rides in, saves the day, praises Ned, and then takes Jon's advice on how to deal with Mance.

[Math_Mage]

If anyone has any doubts about the Hound's motives (at least in the show), refer to his last exchange with Brienne before the fight.

[shadow_archmagi]

Brienne might not be as good as the Hound, but Valyrian steel helps even those odds. Magic swords, baby!

Well, except that she wins the fight by punching him in the face repeatedly. Magic sword doesn't do a whole lot for that.



So I think as much as anything the fight here was sparked - the misunderstanding over Jaime notwithstanding - by the Hound's feeling instinctively protective and not wanting anyone to take Arya away, rather than any financial calculation over what he stood to lose. Also both he and Brienne are stubborn individuals, so it was never likely to end peacefully.

I agree with all of this, with the addition for those still struggling to understand the fight:

If it had been a minor character trying to reclaim Arya, Hound would've punched/stabbed them in the face and wandered off, and it'd be completely in character and a mildly comedic moment. "Hah," we'd think "They should've known better than to mess with Sandor!" Only this time, he messed with someone that wasn't a minor character, so it wasn't a curbstomp.

[Otomodachi]

I didn't get any of those vibes. Stannis's portrayal here was one of the show's most flattering; he rides in, saves the day, praises Ned, and then takes Jon's advice on how to deal with Mance.

I'm personally very sensitive to musical cues, for better or worse. So, with this Imperial-dang-March song playing in the background, all I was able to think was "Oh, ok, where's the bad gu- oh, wait."

[haniya11]

Joffrey had to become king, so everything is alright.

[Callos_DeTerran]

I'm personally very sensitive to musical cues, for better or worse. So, with this Imperial-dang-March song playing in the background, all I was able to think was "Oh, ok, where's the bad gu- oh, wait."

See, I actually like Stannis' theme because it doesn't strike me as very Imperial March-esque....it describes Stannis to me. It's ominous, sure, but Stannis himself is kinda ominous. He keeps bouncing back from everything that is thrown at him, he's got a very sound tactical mind, magic and maybe a literal god on his side, and an unrelenting vision of himself as the king of Westeros. He is ominous as hell but it's not overtly villainous either because Stannis isn't. He's seen as such by many of the characters in the series because they're on the other side of the battlefield and that's conveyed in how his music is played sometimes but...I'm rambling at this point, but I've always heard Stannis' theme as more of a 'something big is about to happen/something cool is about to happen' in no small part because Stannis is petty awesome when it comes to providing those moments!

[happyturtle]

What I love about Stannis is that he doesn't want to be King of Westeros. He isn't in it for the power. He's like the anti-Lannister.

[Eldan]

What I love about Stannis is that he doesn't want to be King of Westeros. He isn't in it for the power. He's like the anti-Lannister.

What? Is that a joke? About half his dialogue is about how he should always have been king. And before that, Lord of Storm's End instead of Renly.

[Aedilred]

What? Is that a joke? About half his dialogue is about how he should always have been king. And before that, Lord of Storm's End instead of Stannis.
Well, this is one of the key points of disagreement between Stannis fans and non-Stannis fans. If you take him at face value, he doesn't want to be king, and look at what he says, but for better or worse he is king, given Robert had no legitimate children, he's also the chosen of the Lord of Light, etc. and he has a high enough opinion of his own abilities to think he would make a good king - certainly a better king than Robert or Joffrey - even if he doesn't actually want to be.

On the other hand, judging from his actions, he looks like any other grasping ambitious aspiring king.

I think Stannis himself might actually believe the former. It would explain why he's such a rubbish negotiator, and why he can't understand what his behaviour looks like. But even if that is true, the lengths to which he's prepared to go to uphold (his interpretation of) the law are truly extraordinary, and somewhat questionable anyway.

I think one of the main problems - from the Stannis-fans perspective - is that they don't take into account character development. While Stannis is insisting on his rights as king, he's basically a jerk. There's the Renly fiasco, the plans to sacrifice Robert's bastards, executing - or permitting the execution of - his own loyal followers for offences against his dignity or whatever, etc. But once he decides that whether or not anyone recognises him, he is a king, and as a king he has responsibilities he needs to discharge, he starts to take an upswing. I think a lot of the frustration with the way Stannis is depicted on screen stems from the fact that we've only just begun to embark on that stage in his character development. It's one of the biggest arcs in the series so far, along with Jaime's. Complaining that Stannis in S2 and the first half of S3 isn't likeable seems to me to be missing the point: I doubt many people were huge fans of his in the book series at that point either. His arrival at the Wall is one of the turning-points.

[Math_Mage]

What? Is that a joke? About half his dialogue is about how he should always have been king. And before that, Lord of Storm's End instead of Renly.
What Stannis thinks should be is one thing. What Stannis wants is another. For that matter, it's not clear to me what Stannis does want.

[happyturtle]

If Robert hadn't rebelled against Aerys, Stannis never would have, even though Aerys was unfit to rule. If Stannis didn't have evidence of Cersei's incest, he would never have rebelled against Joffrey. If Renly had been the older brother, Stannis would have supported Renly.

The Lannisters reach for whatever power they can grab, right or wrong be damned. Stannis could have all of King's Landing in his possession, but he wouldn't claim the throne for its own sake unless he believed it was his by right.

[Zaydos]

Between Joff, Stannis, and Renly as claimants Stannis was always my favorite. He has a certain desire for power, his jealousy of his brother Robert shows that, but of the three he was the one with the most legitimate claim, the one who who wouldn't have acted without having a legitimate claim instead of just to grab power, and probably the best for the realm. Joff, well Joff was Joff. Renly would have continued bankrupting the realm like Robert, more of the same really, and hints of unrest were already there during Robert's rule and Renly did not appear to have Robert's charisma to the same extent. Stannis, well there was going to be civil war because he's uncharismatic and undiplomatic, but at least he might actually rebuild it properly, which I don't think Renly would and while Tywin might have Joff's willful monstrosity was a big problem.

Then book 3 ended and Stannis went from the lesser of evils to awesome.

[Aedilred]

Renly was always my favourite of those three, albeit when he declared himself king I did find myself thinking "well that can't end well". Perhaps he shouldn't have done it - although I could argue about that until the cows come home (and indeed have done in the past). The show portrayal of him was... a bit odd, but it seemed to bring across some of his qualities while neglecting others. In some ways I think he's just a refined version of Robert - less of a force of nature, but with charisma enough. He's clearly a capable diplomat, he's prepared to get his hands dirty and actually take an interest in politics, he's very popular with both nobility and commoners, and he also seems a reasonable judge of character. His moral compass is perhaps not as firm as it could be, but very few characters can claim that it is, and I include Stannis in that. I think his winning would probably have been the best thing for everyone and the only real chance of ending the war quickly.

I think he'd have been a better king than Robert, and provided more stability than Stannis. Ser Pounce would be a better king than Joff. Maybe someone not on the gameboard at the time would make a better king (or queen), but of the available options I thought he was the best, and it took a long time for me to forgive Stannis for killing him. Stannis eventually won me over, but it took a long while, and the TV show has only recently turned that corner.

[shadow_archmagi]

I didn't read the books, but I think Stannis having clear, significant faults and being a sorta generally menacing individual makes his relationship with the Onion Knight more interesting. It definitely came across to me that he had redeeming qualities though.

[Math_Mage]

The good thing about Stannis is, he's just following the rules.
The bad thing about Stannis is, he's "just following orders the rules."

And yes, Renly and Robb and Stannis consolidating would have carried the day with ease. (Too bad that's after Robb already made the boneheaded move of sending Theon to the Iron Islands--but in this scenario that might not have triggered the chain reaction it provoked in the actual story.)

[Legato Endless]

I think he'd have been a better king than Robert, and provided more stability than Stannis. Ser Pounce would be a better king than Joff. Maybe someone not on the gameboard at the time would make a better king (or queen), but of the available options I thought he was the best, and it took a long time for me to forgive Stannis for killing him. Stannis eventually won me over, but it took a long while, and the TV show has only recently turned that corner.

I don't know. To me all three scions of Baratheon are similar in that they all fall short of Kingship and are better suited to another place in leadership. Stannis is too inflexible. His unyielding disposition is his greatest strength and weakness. He's a good executor, but he can't compromise. He's the retainer you trust but don't allow to make the complex decisions. Robert was a great warlord, and coupled with Ned's tactical acumen, a great general. Charismatic, bold, strong, and fearless. But a hideous administrator, and given to petty obsession. Renly is a great diplomat, he's incredibly charming. But there's no vision to any of it. No substance. He's just being his sleazy political egotistic self. I don't see him doing any better in trying circumstances or being able to make the hard calls. He's a people person. He's great at consolidating power, but he's no Tywin in wielding it. If Stannis can't yield, Renly would be too prone to compromise with his power base as a puppet king, and I don't really trust the Tyrells that much. Frankly, even Cersei was right. Ned would have been a better candidate than any of the three brothers.

[happyturtle]

In the books, Catelyn thought that Renly looked and acted just like a younger Robert. It's easy to imagine that once on the throne, he would have turned out the same way - indolent and hedonistic, spending the realm into bankruptcy, despising his politically well-connected wife, and so on.

[Dienekes]

Renly was always my favourite of those three, albeit when he declared himself king I did find myself thinking "well that can't end well". Perhaps he shouldn't have done it - although I could argue about that until the cows come home (and indeed have done in the past). The show portrayal of him was... a bit odd, but it seemed to bring across some of his qualities while neglecting others. In some ways I think he's just a refined version of Robert - less of a force of nature, but with charisma enough. He's clearly a capable diplomat, he's prepared to get his hands dirty and actually take an interest in politics, he's very popular with both nobility and commoners, and he also seems a reasonable judge of character. His moral compass is perhaps not as firm as it could be, but very few characters can claim that it is, and I include Stannis in that. I think his winning would probably have been the best thing for everyone and the only real chance of ending the war quickly.

I think he'd have been a better king than Robert, and provided more stability than Stannis. Ser Pounce would be a better king than Joff. Maybe someone not on the gameboard at the time would make a better king (or queen), but of the available options I thought he was the best, and it took a long time for me to forgive Stannis for killing him. Stannis eventually won me over, but it took a long while, and the TV show has only recently turned that corner.

Renly will always be the guy who I think it'd be fun to be around. Seemed nice, friendly, not as intense as Robert. I'd share a drink with him.

But as a leader, he will always be the guy who stopped in the middle of a military campaign to have a tournament. Say what you will about Robert, he was a drunken, sex addled, abusive, brute. But at least he knew how to fight. Renly played at warfare like it was some glorious pageant. Never fought, we never see him display any understanding of warfare outside the guy with the bigger army is generally better off. In terms of generals, he didn't have anyone as cunning as Tywin, or as daring as Robb. The best he had is Randyll Tarly, a badass no doubt, but one who seems saddled with just making sure Mace Tyrell doesn't screw up too much. And the one conversation we have between Tarly and Renly involves Renly mostly ignoring him. The people who would be getting armies are Mace Tyrell and Loras. Mace is an incompetent, and we learn a bit about Loras' leading style latter on.

He pretty much defines Pyrrhic victory and thinks the best way to fight a castle is to zerg rush them, losing far more men than necessary. I'm not impressed.

[happyturtle]

S4-E1

We finally figured out where we could download the season affordably (Blinkbox, UK), and watched episode 1.

And can anyone explain to me why the streaming/downloaded content is available for purchase now, but the DVDs won't be available for months and months? Sure, they couldn't release it with commentary yet, but they could always wrap that up later in a 'Special Edition'. The physical production time can't be that much of a factor? :smallconfused: Mystery 1.

I looooved the scene with Dany and her dragons. Emilia Clarke is always most believable when she has her CGI dragons around, which is kind of odd. Why should she act better against a stick and ball than against real people? :smallconfused: Mystery 2.

Then they show Grey Worm and Daario having a 'mine is bigger' contest, and I'm looking at Grey Worm's muscles. And it suddenly occurs to me - how do you train Unsullied to be that well-muscled when they have no testosterone? :smallconfused: Mystery 3.

Finally, they come across the body of a crucified child, and the entire line comes to a stop. At the same time. The guy a half mile back stops at exactly the same time as the guy at the front. I don't care how well trained that just isn't possible outside of a choreographed drill. So it made me giggle, at a scene where I should have been feeling horror and sadness. But I guess it'd be more expensive to CGI the army to stop in a waving motion, and they'd already done dragons this episode.

This was our first time downloading content to watch on the telly, and we discovered only after we got it set up that it doesn't have subtitles, and of course our standard remote control won't work with it. But considering it's available NOW instead of ten months, or whatever, from now, we're pleased with the purchase.

[Aedilred]

Renly will always be the guy who I think it'd be fun to be around. Seemed nice, friendly, not as intense as Robert. I'd share a drink with him.

But as a leader, he will always be the guy who stopped in the middle of a military campaign to have a tournament. Say what you will about Robert, he was a drunken, sex addled, abusive, brute. But at least he knew how to fight. Renly played at warfare like it was some glorious pageant. Never fought, we never see him display any understanding of warfare outside the guy with the bigger army is generally better off. In terms of generals, he didn't have anyone as cunning as Tywin, or as daring as Robb. The best he had is Randyll Tarly, a badass no doubt, but one who seems saddled with just making sure Mace Tyrell doesn't screw up too much. And the one conversation we have between Tarly and Renly involves Renly mostly ignoring him. The people who would be getting armies are Mace Tyrell and Loras. Mace is an incompetent, and we learn a bit about Loras' leading style latter on.
The tournament thing bothers me, because people use the fact the Reach is the centre of tournament culture, and Renly's encouragement of it, to support an allegation that the Reach (and Renly) is soft and basically messing around and doesn't know what it's doing when it comes to war. The North, on the other hand, doesn't have tournaments, so all their soldiers are tough and battle-hardened or something.

Which is... almost completely the wrong way round. Tournaments - particularly the melees, which was what Cat observed at Renly's camp - were mock battles, and essentially conceived as training exercises. Historically, it was perceived as the best test a warrior could have outside battle itself. For all the pageantry and glamour associated with the joust, at heart tournaments are still there to produce the best knights possible. The Reach's tournament culture should make it just about the best knight factory in Westeros.

In modern terms holding a tournament mid-march isn't really that different to holding a drill to help keep the soldiers sharp. Stopping the march to do it would be a bit naff, but again I'm not sure that's what actually happened - it appeared that Renly was advancing deliberately slowly on King's Landing, since provisions weren't a problem for him and were for the capital, and because this involved a lot of hanging around he figured he had to do something to keep the men occupied and entertained.

Likewise as far as strategy goes in Mediaeval warfare, "have a bigger army than your opponent" is probably the most fundamental part of it, given that most battles were basically attritional. He probably could have done with paying more attention to Randyll Tarly, yes, although I do think relieving Storm's End was the right move - or would have been if Stannis didn't have unforeseeable magic. Whether if when he'd encountered Tywin he would have listened more closely to Tarly we can't really be sure, since he was killed before he ever faced an opponent that actually required serious generalship.

[Legato Endless]

The tournament thing bothers me, because people use the fact the Reach is the centre of tournament culture, and Renly's encouragement of it, to support an allegation that the Reach (and Renly) is soft and basically messing around and doesn't know what it's doing when it comes to war. The North, on the other hand, doesn't have tournaments, so all their soldiers are tough and battle-hardened or something.

These are all excellent points, but I would like to take at exception at this one. The Northmen are battle hardened because they've fought actual battles. Oh, some of the idea of being hardened by the grim north is nonsense. The Wildlings are the logical extreme of this idea, as that hasn't stopped them from getting their asses handed to them by their Southern neighbors for millennia. But there's some truth amidst all the hard men in a hard land. The North is consistently fighting off Wildling incursions, and the Mountain tribes quarrel with each other endlessly. The North might not have the best knights, but with exception to Randyll Tarly's personal forces, their soldiers are probably a cut above being largely made up of actual combat veterans. The North made up a significant continent of the fighting in Robert's Rebellion, whereas the Reach participated in a single brief inconclusive incursion. I also don't remember any mention of the Reach participating against House Greyjoy.

[Dienekes]

The tournament thing bothers me, because people use the fact the Reach is the centre of tournament culture, and Renly's encouragement of it, to support an allegation that the Reach (and Renly) is soft and basically messing around and doesn't know what it's doing when it comes to war. The North, on the other hand, doesn't have tournaments, so all their soldiers are tough and battle-hardened or something.

Which is... almost completely the wrong way round. Tournaments - particularly the melees, which was what Cat observed at Renly's camp - were mock battles, and essentially conceived as training exercises. Historically, it was perceived as the best test a warrior could have outside battle itself. For all the pageantry and glamour associated with the joust, at heart tournaments are still there to produce the best knights possible. The Reach's tournament culture should make it just about the best knight factory in Westeros.

In modern terms holding a tournament mid-march isn't really that different to holding a drill to help keep the soldiers sharp. Stopping the march to do it would be a bit naff, but again I'm not sure that's what actually happened - it appeared that Renly was advancing deliberately slowly on King's Landing, since provisions weren't a problem for him and were for the capital, and because this involved a lot of hanging around he figured he had to do something to keep the men occupied and entertained.

Likewise as far as strategy goes in Mediaeval warfare, "have a bigger army than your opponent" is probably the most fundamental part of it, given that most battles were basically attritional. He probably could have done with paying more attention to Randyll Tarly, yes, although I do think relieving Storm's End was the right move - or would have been if Stannis didn't have unforeseeable magic. Whether if when he'd encountered Tywin he would have listened more closely to Tarly we can't really be sure, since he was killed before he ever faced an opponent that actually required serious generalship.

Your missing my point. Tournaments and celebration themselves are fine. But of our four potential leaders, one of them won't stop his armies movement even to get married. And then after he is forced to he expects it to be over in a day and move out. Another wouldn't even think of throwing a tournament in a war. And the Lannisters do have a tournament, but it's of all the dregs that didn't join up in the army for one reason or another, a pathetic bunch. Stopping your main army when you should be advancing to attack one of three enemies (King's Landing, the place he wants, is completely open at this time) to throw a tournament is dumb.

Having more men than your enemy is important, and definitely puts you in an advantage, but it does not completely overshadow tactics and strategy, medieval history is full of smaller armies taking down bigger foes. Renly through the few glimpses we are given at his command did not have much of an understanding of strategy. There is no evidence for or against his tactical acumen so I suppose he could have been another Robb Stark that could have surprised us all. Personally, nothing he did made me believe that was going to happen; especially since most people who know or knew him seem to harp that he was fancy but useless (Robert, Donal Noye, Queen of Thorns, Cressen, ect.), which the tournament mid-war supports.

Now I will say, of the three brothers he seems the best at playing the Game. Not that that is particularly difficult since Robert refused to play and Stannis would rather smash the board. Whether he would be successful at it I cannot say, I doubt he has what it takes to outmaneuver Littlefinger, the Queen of Thorns, Varys, and their like at court but I may be pleasantly surprised.

[Aedilred]

These are all excellent points, but I would like to take at exception at this one. The Northmen are battle hardened because they've fought actual battles. Oh, some of the idea of being hardened by the grim north is nonsense. The Wildlings are the logical extreme of this idea, as that hasn't stopped them from getting their asses handed to them by their Southern neighbors for millennia.
Yeah, you're right. I didn't express myself well, and I was thinking more of the "Northerners are well'ard because it's cold" stuff. (Some) Northerners are indeed battle-hardened because they've fought in actual battles.


Your missing my point. Tournaments and celebration themselves are fine. But of our four potential leaders, one of them won't stop his armies movement even to get married. And then after he is forced to he expects it to be over in a day and move out. Another wouldn't even think of throwing a tournament in a war. And the Lannisters do have a tournament, but it's of all the dregs that didn't join up in the army for one reason or another, a pathetic bunch. Stopping your main army when you should be advancing to attack one of three enemies (King's Landing, the place he wants, is completely open at this time) to throw a tournament is dumb.
Like I said, though, I don't think he stopped his army's march to throw a tournament. I think he was advancing deliberately slowly and held a tournament to pass the time and help keep the knights sharp and morale up. Just like a more modern army camped in one place mid-march might hold training exercises rather than sit on their hands.

Renly's strategy is pretty good. He has such a large army that nobody's going to come after him directly unless they have to. He's also sitting on the main supply route from the breadbasket of Westeros to the Crownlands, where he's got quite a lot of popular support. King's Landing isn't completely open, since Blackwater shows that Tywin is in a position to move to relieve it. If Renly advances, Tywin will reposition himself to fight him - trying to force Tywin to do so was why Cat was negotiating with Renly in the first place. But from Renly's perspective a battle is a needless risk, and he can afford just to wait his enemies out. The Lannisters and Starks will fight each other, weakening them both for any point in the future when he has to fight them. If he ever has to fight them it'll be on his terms. Eventually, the Lannisters will lose their grip on King's Landing and their army will drift away due to popular discontent, desertion and attrition, and he can then move in to mop up the survivors, reopen the Rose Road, and be the hero king. It's not that dissimilar to the strategy employed by Tywin, actually, except Renly has a massive logistical advantage since his supply route is protected.

And this plan is also very effective. The Lannisters get the blame for starvation in King's Landing, leading to riots. He keeps his army completely intact, while Robb's and Tywin's are whittled away in skirmishes. The only reason it fails is that Stannis intervenes almost unforeseeably and kills him. It takes what is from an in-world perspective pretty much a deus ex machina to foil his strategy.

We don't know whose strategy it was. If it was his own, it shows he has a bit of a brain. If it's Tarly's, it shows he's prepared to listen to his sub-commanders. The worst you can say about it is that it's pretty cynical.

While there are a number of characters who don't think much of him, I'm not sure to what extent I trust their judgment. The Queen of Thorns doesn't appear to have a high opinion of anyone outside her own family and only seems to have time for two of them. Donal Noye last had anything to do with Renly when Renly was about seven, and Cressen (who wasn't particularly negative about him anyway) probably not much after that point either. Robert doesn't have much time for anyone except Ned, including Stannis, or Tywin, or indeed any of the other characters in the series who appear pretty competent. And balancing the scales there are a number of characters who think very highly of Renly - Brienne and Loras being the most obvious, but Cortnay Penrose checks off a few more (including Randyll Tarly himself, who we know is no soft touch).

Obviously, we'll never know, and I think that's part of the point. He's never going to be more than a might-have-been character, because his story was cut short so early. But I think a lot of the criticism of him is, if not baseless, then at least less well-supported than it might be.

[McStabbington]

Before I respond to your point, Aedilred, may I just take a moment to say, as a member of Team Brienne, that I'm so very glad we've settled who's top dog for the title of "Best Individual Combatant in Westeros." Loras, Sandor, Jaime is game, set, match for that debate.

But I would say there is also a point about tourney culture that your point doesn't acknowledge, in that while it is training of a sort, it's training for the wrong kinds of things. Namely, it's a test of individual prowess and general badassery, which is hey, fine in and of itself, and it may have some tangential effect on skill at strategy and battlefield command. If I were a mook in battle with little more than a rusty pot for a helm and a stick, I suppose I'd feel at least a little better if the guy leading our charge were a skilled combatant that the big important people don't want to lose, like Loras Tyrell or Renly Baratheon.

But badassery alone doesn't make for strategic cunning; if it did, everyone would be vying to hand their army over to Brienne of Tarth, and nobody really seems to think that's a good idea. In point of fact, the best commanders of the series are usually portrayed as nothing special in personal combat. Eddard was reputed to be no better than average as a single combatant, and on the show he was quite open that he couldn't stand against a top-tier swordsman like Barristan Selmy. The one swordfight he had, it looked like he was going all out just to fend off Jaime, who looked to be toying with Ned. And yet, he was a seasoned commander who, to my recollection, was never beaten on the field in several wars and created a cult of personality so strong that it was enough to allow his untested 16-year old son lead 20,000 men into the Riverlands.

Similarly, Tywin and Robb are never described with particularly glowing accounts of their individual prowess. Robb is probably best, but that has more to do with the fact that he led from the front to inspire his men than out of any exceptional individual ability. Of the commanders who are usually lauded for their individual prowess, the only ones that offhand come to mind are Randyll Tarly, which is . . . kinda, sorta, and Barristan Selmy, who definitely seems to be considered a first-rate commander and a peerless blade individually.

Which is a long-winded way of pointing out that tourney fighting may well be good at testing knights, but it's a crap poor way of testing commanders, since you don't need any strategic skill to win a tourney. You just need, in Olenna Tyrell's words, to be very good at knocking people off horses with a stick. So on the whole, if that's what Renly's doing with his free time, yeah, it really does play into the sneaking suspicion that, whatever talent he may have for inspiring people to follow him and making alliances, he's nevertheless a bit of a ponce when it comes to actual battlefield command. Which is backed up by the fact that, if he had pressed forward faster, he could have ensured that Tywin Lannister was caught out of position at Harrenhal when the hammer came down on King's Landing.

[Eldan]

It's not individual prowess. The melee is fought in teams, classically.

[Math_Mage]

Before I respond to your point, Aedilred, may I just take a moment to say, as a member of Team Brienne, that I'm so very glad we've settled who's top dog for the title of "Best Individual Combatant in Westeros." Loras, Sandor, Jaime is game, set, match for that debate.
Sandor and Jaime fought under some rather serious handicaps (Sandor in particular is hampered by DM fiat), so that hasn't been settled at all.


But I would say there is also a point about tourney culture that your point doesn't acknowledge, in that while it is training of a sort, it's training for the wrong kinds of things. Namely, it's a test of individual prowess and general badassery, which is hey, fine in and of itself, and it may have some tangential effect on skill at strategy and battlefield command. If I were a mook in battle with little more than a rusty pot for a helm and a stick, I suppose I'd feel at least a little better if the guy leading our charge were a skilled combatant that the big important people don't want to lose, like Loras Tyrell or Renly Baratheon.
Since the tournament wasn't intended to test for strategy/command, and the nominal strategic commanders aren't being judged by the tournament, I don't see how that's a problem.