Monsters as Treasure?

[unseenmage]

Have a player who is going to get a colossal, Awakened Fey Cherry Tree (Dragon mag material, see list of plants in my sig) as treasure eventually but I'm not sure what level to hand it out at.
There'll be a linked quest and difficulties etc of course. It's just the level that's got me stumped.

Awakened Trees use Animated Object stats and according to the spell Animate Objects a colossal Animated Object isn't possible until epic levels. Can this be right? Are colossal Animated Objects really an epic effect/threat?

thoughts on handing out monsters as treasure and how to determine what levels to give what monsters also more than welcome.

[Telonius]

In order to Awaken a colossal tree, you'd need to make a Will save of 42 (10 + 32HD).

Awaken is a Druid5 spell, which means you'd need to be Druid10 to cast it. That gives you 6 base will save. So let's figure you have 18 Wisdom to start, and bumped the Wisdom score at levels 4 and 8, for an extra +5. So starting bonus is +11.

Owl's Wisdom would get you +4 enhancement to Wisdom, for a +2 to the saving throw. Cloak of Resistance +3 (reasonable for the level) would give you +3 resistance; a Crystal Mask of Mindarmor would give you an additional +4 Insight. If you can get an 18th-level scroll of Conviction, that's another +5 Insight bonus to saves. So +14 from all that, plus your 11 from before, gives you a +25. So you're already succeeding on a roll of 17 at level 10, without trying too hard (or assuming too much outside of WBL). And that doesn't include any Morale bonuses, or shenanigans/feat investment (Iron Will, via regular level-ups or Otyugh Hole).

[tyckspoon]

Awakened Trees use Animated Object stats and according to the spell Animate Objects a colossal Animated Object isn't possible until epic levels. Can this be right? Are colossal Animated Objects really an epic effect/threat?


Not really; they're only CR 10. At high levels, they're mostly useful as giant bags of HP. If your DM subscribes to the 'attack the biggest thing on the field' school of 'tactics' then they can be handy for absorbing damage. Or sticking a Shield Other on there so you can direct your damage to it that way.

[Telonius]

Oh, also - the Animate Objects limitation doesn't apply. The Awaken spell just says to use the stats for Animated Object (the creature, not the spell), so it's based on the size of the tree. (Size determines hitpoints). You don't have to use anything about the Animate Objects spell. As long as you can make the Will save listed in Awaken, you can target as big of a tree as you like.

[Fouredged Sword]

Get a vest of steady spellcasting, a casting of guidance of the avatar and divine insight, and an item granting the diamond mind counter that replaces a willsave with a concentration check. At level 10, that is 14 ranks, +5 from the vest, +20 from guidance of the avatar, and +15 from divine insight.

You can't fail the check, and didn't spend anything other than wealth to pull it off.

[Urpriest]

How helpful is said Awakened Tree? Are you planning to have it fight alongside the party? What is its motivation to do that? Is it helping out for just one task, or long-term?

I feel like in general adding an NPC to the party shouldn't be thought of as treasure. You can treat the Fey Cherries as treasure, but they're basically just potions of Protection from Evil.

[unseenmage]

The idea is to pass command of playing the NPC over to the player completely. With their cooperation and involvement of course.
Like Leadership generally gets houseruled minus burning a feat.

The Fey Cherry will be part unofficial cohort and part Stronghold, thus the need for it to be huge to colossal size.


This concept does have some analogues in RAW too. Thrallherd being one of the biggest but the Leadership stuff in Power of Faerun has rules for attracting specific NPCs as well. In a sense these involve gauging the power levels of monsters/NPCs that players can/will get access to.

[Tvtyrant]

In order to Awaken a colossal tree, you'd need to make a Will save of 42 (10 + 32HD).

Awaken is a Druid5 spell, which means you'd need to be Druid10 to cast it. That gives you 6 base will save. So let's figure you have 18 Wisdom to start, and bumped the Wisdom score at levels 4 and 8, for an extra +5. So starting bonus is +11.

Owl's Wisdom would get you +4 enhancement to Wisdom, for a +2 to the saving throw. Cloak of Resistance +3 (reasonable for the level) would give you +3 resistance; a Crystal Mask of Mindarmor would give you an additional +4 Insight. If you can get an 18th-level scroll of Conviction, that's another +5 Insight bonus to saves. So +14 from all that, plus your 11 from before, gives you a +25. So you're already succeeding on a roll of 17 at level 10, without trying too hard (or assuming too much outside of WBL). And that doesn't include any Morale bonuses, or shenanigans/feat investment (Iron Will, via regular level-ups or Otyugh Hole).

I think it would be easier to pick up Moment of Perfect Mind (I believe you can get it from a casting of Heroics) and use an item of Guidance of the Avatar and other skill boosting abilities myself. Especially as you can wildshape to boost your con and thus your concentration, and you are going to have it maxed anyway. +20 (GotA), +13 (Druid 10), +4 (constitution from Dire Badger or Brown Bear) nets you 37, so you make it on a 5 or higher. Masterwork item of concentration gets us to 4, custom made item would get us into instant success realms.

[Telonius]

Oh, absolutely, there are better ways of doing it. I was just going for the simple stuff - core and Magic Item Compendium, not blowing your entire build and budget optimizing it - and it still got it within decently close reach for a level 10. Just showing that you can get it way before Epic, practically as soon as you can cast the spell.

[Bronk]

I think it would be better balance-wise to give the awakened tree to the player as a stronghold whenever (maybe after a bit of diplomacy) but to wait until higher levels before adding it to the party during adventures (maybe after a lot more diplomacy, or just getting to know the party better). The tree may be only CR10, but it still has 32HD and might throw off power and XP balances.

I think this is neat, since I recently did something similar in my game.

Is the character in question going to awaken it him or her self? He or she might want to maximize and/or empower the rolls. Or even 'speak with plants' to ask it if it wants to be awakened. Will it be turned into a stronghold before or after awakening, and will the stronghold be part of it's body so that it can be fixed by magical healing, or more like an add on that it is carrying?

As a magic 'fey' tree, will it retain it's magic properties when it's awakened? Will it be a fey creature, half-fey, or something like that, and would that give it a CON score?

Will the character or other players eventually want it to take class levels? It might make a great spellcaster depending on its mental stats...

[Urpriest]

The idea is to pass command of playing the NPC over to the player completely. With their cooperation and involvement of course.
Like Leadership generally gets houseruled minus burning a feat.

The Fey Cherry will be part unofficial cohort and part Stronghold, thus the need for it to be huge to colossal size.


This concept does have some analogues in RAW too. Thrallherd being one of the biggest but the Leadership stuff in Power of Faerun has rules for attracting specific NPCs as well. In a sense these involve gauging the power levels of monsters/NPCs that players can/will get access to.

I feel like I'd discourage bringing it along on adventures, and maybe instead think of it like wondrous architecture. Build a minimal stronghold that gives comparable benefits, basically, and compare prices there.

[Dairuga]

I have never heard of Fey Cherries before, having played this game for roughly two years now.

Then I come onto this Forum today, and stumble upon a player whom seems to be asking around for how to expedite the growth of Fey Cherries given the DM shot down his Growth Plant attempt, talking about the possibilities of Awakening that might happen down the line.

Then I see, a page later, a thread about someone that is planning to give their Player an Awakened Fey Cherry tree somewhere down the line, and is wondering how to balance this against treasure.

Might you perchance be the same group?
In which case, this would be hilarious.

[Angelalex242]

There used to be a lot of fey cherries.

Then I took the Nymph's Kiss feat.

There went that idea.

But when I saw 'monsters as treasure' I was more thinking the 'iron flask' object, or 'scroll that greater planar allies an astral deva to kick ass for you.' Or best of all, the Paladin asking that Gold Dragon to help him smite that Red Dragon who's been terrorizing the poor village.

[unseenmage]

I have never heard of Fey Cherries before, having played this game for roughly two years now.

Then I come onto this Forum today, and stumble upon a player whom seems to be asking around for how to expedite the growth of Fey Cherries given the DM shot down his Growth Plant attempt, talking about the possibilities of Awakening that might happen down the line.

Then I see, a page later, a thread about someone that is planning to give their Player an Awakened Fey Cherry tree somewhere down the line, and is wondering how to balance this against treasure.

Might you perchance be the same group?
In which case, this would be hilarious.

Not the same group to my knowledge.
Fey Cherry Trees are from a Dragon article and I detailed a lot of useful plants in a thread linked in my sig.
If the other poster was influenced in any way by said thread/sig is anyone's guess. Here's hoping I was somehow helpful. :smallsmile:

[Jeff the Green]

Ummm. There's rules in... LoM?... for slaves, assigning a GP value to creatures based on their CR. You could use that. There's similar rules for symbionts in MoE.

[unseenmage]

Ummm. There's rules in... LoM?... for slaves, assigning a GP value to creatures based on their CR. You could use that. There's similar rules for symbionts in MoE.

Ohhhh yeah! I forgot about that. Last time I played 3.x a lot LoM and it's slave rules hadn't come out yet. Once upon a time it was a big pet peeve of mine that there were no rules for slavery but references to it all over the system and lore.

It was right up there with there being no rules for sappers digging a hole under fortress walls before RotD and the mining rules int he Kobolds section was printed.

[Dairuga]

Not the same group to my knowledge.
Fey Cherry Trees are from a Dragon article and I detailed a lot of useful plants in a thread linked in my sig.
If the other poster was influenced in any way by said thread/sig is anyone's guess. Here's hoping I was somehow helpful. :smallsmile:

Oh wow, yes, this is very helpful.
Your thread links to a -lot- of plants, and I must say, many of them are rather useful, especially for themed campaigns.

And I just noticed your thread, linking to war spells. I remember posting in that thread, making a few of those spells on request. Good times, good times.