Does the Avenger PrC have access to all the Assassin spells?

[Oddstar]

I have a question: WotC published a prestige class for 3.5 called the Avenger. You can read the class description on WotC's website here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070401a). To summarize, though, the Avenger is a (potentially) non-evil Assassin. As far as I can tell, the only rules differences between the Avenger and the Assassin as described in the DMG is that the alignment requirement for Avengers is any non-chaotic, instead of any evil, and the Avenger has to have killed someone in defense of his homeland or nation, instead of having killed someone to become an Assassin.

My question concerns the spell list for Avengers, which is the same as the spell list for Assassins in the DMG, even where it doesn't make so much sense for it to be, as when Avengers also get the spell Magic Circle Against Good, even though many Avengers may be good. The problem is that Assassins get a whole bunch of spells from other sourcebooks other than the ones listed in the DMG. The Spell Compendium lists, on pp. 245-246, 37 Assassin spells beyond the ones listed in the DMG. So my question is, would Avengers also get access to all those spells?

[ngilop]

I have a question: WotC published a prestige class for 3.5 called the Avenger. You can read the class description on WotC's website here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070401a). To summarize, though, the Avenger is a (potentially) non-evil Assassin. As far as I can tell, the only rules differences between the Avenger and the Assassin as described in the DMG is that the alignment requirement for Avengers is any non-chaotic, instead of any evil, and the Avenger has to have killed someone in defense of his homeland or nation, instead of having killed someone to become an Assassin.

My question concerns the spell list for Avengers, which is the same as the spell list for Assassins in the DMG, even where it doesn't make so much sense for it to be, as when Avengers also get the spell Magic Circle Against Good, even though many Avengers may be good. The problem is that Assassins get a whole bunch of spells from other sourcebooks other than the ones listed in the DMG. The Spell Compendium lists, on pp. 245-246, 37 Assassin spells beyond the ones listed in the DMG. So my question is, would Avengers also get access to all those spells?



yes it would, it says its a variant of the assassin class. not that it is a whole NEW prestige class.

[Oddstar]

yes it would, it says its a variant of the assassin class. not that it is a whole NEW prestige class.
Thank you for your help. I was not aware of that rule.

[Curmudgeon]

yes it would, it says its a variant of the assassin class. not that it is a whole NEW prestige class.
We need to start by acknowledging that the Avenger is an April Fool's joke rather than a class intended for actual use. Next, note that variants don't get all the goodies of the class they're derived from. In particular, access to options like ACFs and substitution levels is based on the name of the class. In this case, Avenger (not Assassin) is listed as the class name.
Avenger Spell List

Avengers choose their spells from the following list: There's no "as Assassin" in there anywhere.

In short, being a variant of a class only matters when the name doesn't change. Avengers have access to the Avenger spell list only.

[Chronos]

By a strict reading of the RAW, no, those are the only spells the Avenger gets. But the whole point of the Avenger class is that you shouldn't read the RAW that strictly, and should feel free to adapt things to suit your table. In the spirit of that, one really ought to give the Avenger access to more spells, if you're using it, and maybe to remove some spells that it does have access to (like replacing Magic Circle against Good with against Chaos).

[Oddstar]

We need to start by acknowledging that the Avenger is an April Fool's joke rather than a class intended for actual use. Next, note that variants don't get all the goodies of the class they're derived from. In particular, access to options like ACFs and substitution levels is based on the name of the class. In this case, Avenger (not Assassin) is listed as the class name. There's no "as Assassin" in there anywhere.

In short, being a variant of a class only matters when the name doesn't change. Avengers have access to the Avenger spell list only.
Do we have to start that way? I know it says that it's an April Fool's joke, but what's funny about it? It seems like a perfectly reasonable concept for a prestige class to me: an assassin who kills out of patriotism instead of greed. What about that is a joke?

Anyway, I can see what you're saying about, RAW, it seems to suggest that the Avenger should only have those spells. But it does seem that, RAI, the Avenger should have all the spells Assassins do.

[Curmudgeon]

Do we have to start that way? I know it says that it's an April Fool's joke, but what's funny about it? It seems like a perfectly reasonable concept for a prestige class to me: an assassin who kills out of patriotism instead of greed. What about that is a joke?
Oh, a few things point out the joke. They describe it as "when assassins go good" but Good isn't required; in fact, Evil alignment is perfectly fine. (There's a non-chaotic alignment requirement instead.) The inclusion of Magic Circle Against Good in the spell list is a bad choice for Good Avengers. Then there's the table which lists sneak attack progressing at odd levels but text (which trumps the table) listing sneak attack instead progressing at even levels. We end with all the prose about how hard it is to become an Avenger in the class description, but no mention of that in the actual entry requirements.

Yes, it's a joke, just as they say.

[ngilop]

Oh, a few things point out the joke. They describe it as "when assassins go good" but Good isn't required; in fact, Evil alignment is perfectly fine. (There's a non-chaotic alignment requirement instead.) The inclusion of Magic Circle Against Good in the spell list is a bad choice for Good Avengers. Then there's the table which lists sneak attack progressing at odd levels but text (which trumps the table) listing sneak attack instead progressing at even levels. We end with all the prose about how hard it is to become an Avenger in the class description, but no mention of that in the actual entry requirements.

Yes, it's a joke, just as they say.

insert hundreds upon hundreds of WOTC NON aprifool's Prcs who have differentiating txt and tab;le have fluff that says 'getting into this clas is hard' but requirements that are rather easy, PrCs that make you orse at what its supposed to be good at

and imam just stop there bcuase everybody who goes on these forums or owns a D&D book can tell you heer dozens more wrong with your statement. and how THOSE pRc are
jokes' ad shouldhave been re;lased as an book called LULZ APRRIL FOOLS THOUGHT THESE CLASSES WERE GOOD HUH NOW YOUS A DUM DUM"


the only point is stop being such a jerk to the OP. he asked a very valid question about a online PrC which is if you read the article is literally 'this is the assassin class but the alignment is any non-chaotic rather than any evil'

so why couldn't ths assassin who is 'non chatic not have access to the SpC assassin spells?

its not going to shatter the universe if the OP allows such and it makes perfectly viable sense

op do whatever you want and what ever makes the most sense toyou, I apologize that youhad to deal with such curt behavior.. grwa think skin cuz it happen more often than not.

[Pluto!]

I'd be more surprised if somebody limited the class per RAW than if they empowered the class by mirroring the Assassin's spell list via house rules.

[shadowseve]

The sad thing is there is no real good assassin class for good aligned characters. BOED botched the slayer of domiel. (sad too as I really liked the concept of it) As is it would have to be housed ruled to compete with assassin.

I have to agree with curmudgeon on this.

[Chronos]

The joke in that class is on people who think that what's written is absolute and immutable.

[TuggyNE]

I am a little disturbed at the apparent attitude that considers patriotic special forces agents to be a joke. :smallconfused:


Oh, a few things point out the joke. They describe it as "when assassins go good" but Good isn't required; in fact, Evil alignment is perfectly fine. (There's a non-chaotic alignment requirement instead.) The inclusion of Magic Circle Against Good in the spell list is a bad choice for Good Avengers. Then there's the table which lists sneak attack progressing at odd levels but text (which trumps the table) listing sneak attack instead progressing at even levels. We end with all the prose about how hard it is to become an Avenger in the class description, but no mention of that in the actual entry requirements.

If only such mismatches between fluff and crunch, such lazy and illogical copy-pastes, were confined to the ranks of April Fools jokes.

But they are not, so it fits right into ordinary 3.x content seamlessly. Stick it in the list right after Archmage and Assassin, one of which is less capable at casting spells than its entry classes (given no CL progression and possibly retarded spell progression because of that), and the other of which must use verbal components for all its sneaky spells. Ho ho ho! Those were just a joke, you see!

[Curmudgeon]

I am a little disturbed at the apparent attitude that considers patriotic special forces agents to be a joke. :smallconfused:
I think the idea of patriotic special forces is excellent, actually. My complaint is that this idea was trotted out as an April Fool's joke, with a slipshod execution that reinforces the joke. (In point of fact, I've railed against WotC giving martial classes only "fluff" without "crunch" when making statements like "Of all classes, fighters have the best all-around fighting capabilities (hence the name)."; see here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?336978-Idea-for-FIGHTER-bonus-feats). This is just another instance of the same disregard.) The attitude problem was all Wizards of the Coast's.

[TuggyNE]

I think the idea of patriotic special forces is excellent, actually. My complaint is that this idea was trotted out as an April Fool's joke, with a slipshod execution that reinforces the joke. (In point of fact, I've railed against WotC giving martial classes only "fluff" without "crunch" when making statements like "Of all classes, fighters have the best all-around fighting capabilities (hence the name)."; see here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?336978-Idea-for-FIGHTER-bonus-feats). This is just another instance of the same disregard.) The attitude problem was all Wizards of the Coast's.

Right, sorry, I was perturbed at WotC, not you. Failed to clarify that.

[HighWater]

Then there's the table which lists sneak attack progressing at odd levels but text (which trumps the table) listing sneak attack instead progressing at even levels.
It's only fair to point out that the un-errata'd Assassin has the exact same text/table incongruence. The logical conclusion would be that they were making a quick april's-fools class and were sloppy with copy-pasting. There are a bunch of other screw ups in the Avenger (note the 21 spells/day at first, third, fifth and seventh level that just vaporise if you take another level, this is a copy-paste formatting error where the "1" denoted a footnote) that point to either a very quick glance by an editor, or no glance at all because it's "just an April's Fool" class. Sadly, the mistakes are not part of the joke, although the joke-nature of the class is a likely cause of more-of-them slipping past the proof-reads than usual.

@OP: Don't be discouraged by all this "it's not a serious class"-talk. Instead, take the Avenger as "proof" that you're not an idiot and that you can be good (or lawful) and deny evil-doers a fair fighting chance. (PCs do this on a daily basis, it's not inherently evil.) DMs really like precedent, even if it's April Fool's precedent. Then introduce the "fix":
Basically, carbon-copy the errata'd Assassin (so not the one that says it gets sneak attack at 2nd level, 4th etc., but the updated one with SA at 1st, 3rd etc.), switch out any instance of "evil" for "good" or "lawful" or "chaotic" or "non-evil" and replace spells accordingly. Call it the Avenger, or Vengeful Assassin, or Dagger of Justice, and just say it casts from the Assassin list with the aforementioned alignment changes also applied to spells. It's only a few minutes work and suddenly you have a -working- and flavorful PrC for those players who think assassination doesn't have to be evil.

[Chronos]

Basically, carbon-copy the errata'd Assassin (so not the one that says it gets sneak attack at 2nd level, 4th etc., but the updated one with SA at 1st, 3rd etc.), switch out any instance of "evil" for "good" or "lawful" or "chaotic" or "non-evil" and replace spells accordingly. Call it the Avenger, or Vengeful Assassin, or Dagger of Justice, and just say it casts from the Assassin list with the aforementioned alignment changes also applied to spells. It's only a few minutes work and suddenly you have a -working- and flavorful PrC for those players who think assassination doesn't have to be evil.
And the joke is that anyone could have done that with only a moment's work even before WotC posted the "official" Avenger, and them making it "official" doesn't actually make it any easier.

[HighWater]

And the joke is that anyone could have done that with only a moment's work even before WotC posted the "official" Avenger, and them making it "official" doesn't actually make it any easier.
I don't think the Avenger was ever considered a "good" joke, maybe a lawful one though.

What you say is very true and also not true at all:

Thanks to WotC's drunken (I admit I'm making hurtful assumptions) April Fools, the Avenger is mentioned in Rogue/Sneak threads/handbooks and threads pop up every now and again to ask questions and discuss this Prestige Class. Although it's quite possible that somebody comes up with "Assassins, but not Evil" on their own (it's not a massive stretch), the fact of the matter is that WotC publishing "Avenger" has increased it's exposure to those who didn't consider the option. That's the upside. The downside is that "Avenger" is quite obviously in need of some serious errata if taken seriously and someone might reject it on its broken RAW and then forget they can just refluff the Assassin themselves. That's what they should do though. Refluff that baby and give the Rogue something nice.

[Blackhawk748]

Honestly my group doesnt even enforce the Alignment restriction on Assassin, we view it as more of a combat style than a job (thank you Assassin's Creed)