Feat Tree Condensing

[lytokk]

I'm looking for a list of feat tree condensations that are normally house ruled. For example, Making all of the two-weapon fighting feats that just moves up with iterative attacks, combining point blank and precise shot. I'm wanting to get a good list of these together and present them to my group to see how they feel about them. Another thought was combining all of the weapon focus/specialization feats and just to give the tree to fighters at level 1.

Also combining Endurance and Toughness. Those two should really be 1 feat. Any feedback would be helpful.

[TheIronGolem]

Cleave + Great Cleave
Mobility + Spring Attack (some people like to put Dodge in here as well, though I personally prefer to keep it separate but buff it up)
Combat Expertise: I actually recommend removing this as a feat entirely, and simply make it the way defensive fighting works.
Skill Focus + Greater Skill Focus (use the Pathfinder version of SF instead)

[Kamin_Majere]

For Toughness I actually combined and expanded the feat tree

Lesser Toughness: 3 HP and the benefits of Die Hard and Endurance
Toughness: Gives 6HP+1HP a level and you you gain +1 to your death threshold* for each feat in the toughness tree you have (Prereq is Lesser Toughness)
Improved Toughness: Gives 12HP+1HP a level and you gain Energy Resistance 1 (Fire/Cold/Acid/Electricity) for each feat in the toughness tree you have (Prereq is Toughness)
Greater Toughness: Gives 24HP+1HP a level and you gain DR 1/- for each feat in the toughness tree you have (Prereq is Improved Toughness)

I also allow them to be taken more than once and the effects stack
*(Death Threshold - In my house rules you aren't dead until negative CON score instead of a straight 10)

[lytokk]

Cleave + Great Cleave
Mobility + Spring Attack (some people like to put Dodge in here as well, though I personally prefer to keep it separate but buff it up)
Combat Expertise: I actually recommend removing this as a feat entirely, and simply make it the way defensive fighting works.
Skill Focus + Greater Skill Focus (use the Pathfinder version of SF instead)

What do yo unormally do to dodge? We've already got it house ruled to basically be a blanket +1 to AC, so long as you aren't flat footed.

[Vaz]

Shape Soulmeld and Open Chakra - Choose one Soulmeld, and then one Open Chakra which it may be bound do.
Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack - just condense it into Spring Attack
Weapon Focus, Specialization, GWF, GWS, Weapon Mastery, Weapon Supremacy, the bonuses granted at the relevant levels.

[TheIronGolem]

What do yo unormally do to dodge? We've already got it house ruled to basically be a blanket +1 to AC, so long as you aren't flat footed.

That's what Pathfinder does, and it helps, but still not enough to be worth a feat slot in my opinion. I usually have the bonus scale with level - an extra +1 per 4 character levels (so you're rocking a +6 at level 20).

[Gemini476]

Improved X - either just make these part of the combat maneuver in question, or collapse them into a couple feats with three or so options each. Like Tactical feats, in a way.

Also, make sure to pull in a bunch of feats from other sources (and collapse them as well). Otherwise the Fighter is soon not going to have anything to pick.

Oh, and expand some of the magic feats. They really don't need to be as prerequisite-free as they are right now.
Something like Eschew -> Silent -> Still -> Quicken or Enlarge -> Widen -> Extend.

[Socratov]

I agree, and while you're at it, don't give the fighter bonus feats, but actual classfeatures. This would be done best by giving the fighter at lvl 1 a classfeature that makes him pick between zhetarim, dungoncrasher, etc.

[illyahr]

Weapon Focus + Weapon Spec. = Weapon Focus
G Weapon Focus + G Weapon Spec = Weapon Specialization

Weapon Flurry (weapon choice)
Prerequisites: Weapon Focus (weapon choice), BAB +6
Use a Swift Action to activate, can Full Attack as a Standard Action with the selected weapon. Can't use a second weapon during the turn you activate this effect.

Weapon Frenzy (weapon choice)
Prerequisites: Weapon Flurry (weapon choice) + prereqs, Dodge
Can make a 5' step between each attack when using Weapon Flurry.

Toughness + Endurance = Endurance

Im. TWF + Gr. TWF = Improved TWF (third and fourth attacks when BAB hits +11 and +16)

Dodge + Mobility = Dodge

Weapon Spiral
Prerequisites: Dodge, Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack, TWF
Attack each enemy within reach once with both weapons as a Full Round Action.

Greater Weapon Spiral
Prerequisites: Weapon Spiral + it's prereqs
Make a full attack against each enemy within reach. You are dazed for 2d4 rounds afterward.

[The Grue]

I just came here to say that, for a moment, I thought the title of the thread was "Feat Tree Condescending".

[lytokk]

I've got my own ideas for a complete fighter fix, but as far as the point of this thread, not now. Right now, just trying to condense the feat chains down a bit to make them more palatable, streamline the game as it were.

I like the idea of keeping the Improved X but removing combat expertise as a prereq. Combat expertise could be useful, and should be the pre-req to something, just not sure what. Kinda just looking at core for now, and will expand out later.

I like the idea of making eschew materials required for all of those metamagic spells. Kinda makes sense at that point.

[bekeleven]

Below I've included the "Feats" section of my houserules.

Feats
Bans: Extra Spell an Extra Spell Slot are banned. Persist Spell is banned. Metamagic Reducers are almost all banned – mention if you want one in a build. Battle Jump, Body Fuel, Earth Spell, Exalted Companion, Exalted Wild Shape, Initiate of Mystra, Item Familiar, Leadership (and any variation thereof), Planar Touchstone, Reserves of Strength, and Shock Trooper, are banned. Many feats seem useless outside of cheese (Alternative Source Spell, for instance, is used exclusively for hunting ethergaunts).
Feat Rules: Any and all methods of exchanging feats for other feats follow the restrictions of Retraining in PHB2. One flaw is allowed. All skill-boosting feats use their pathfinder equivalents, which are strictly better. I buff many crappy feats below. Combined feats count as all feats you qualify for, for purposes of prerequisites. If you need a different crappy feat, talk to me and we can maybe work something out.

Dodge: Uses Pathfinder Dodge. When the prerequisites are met, includes Mobility and Spring Attack.
Great Fortitude: Includes Toughness and Improved Toughness.
Invisible Spell: +1 Level Adjust.
Iron Will: Includes Blind-Fight.
Lighting Reflexes: Includes Quick Draw when prerequisites are met.
Point-Blank Shot: Includes Far Shot.
Two-Weapon Defense: When the prerequisites are met, this includes Improved and Greater versions.
Two-Weapon Fighting: When the prerequisites are met, this includes Improved and Greater versions.
Weapon Focus: When the prerequisites are met, this includes Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, and Greater Weapon Specialization.


As for fighter fixes, I use my Professional (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=332829) homebrew class, which fixes the fighter, the barbarian, and the rogue, while simplifying or eliminating a whole host of mundane dipping issues.

[lytokk]

Alright, I think I've got a decent idea on how to do this, starting a list now, picking and chosing from everyone's advice

Dodge: +1 Dodge bonus to AC, at every 5 levels bonus increases by +1, so +5 bonus at level 20. Not usable while flat footed

Endurance: Now includes toughness and die hard.

Great Fortitude: Now includes improved toughness

Lightning Reflexes: now includes quickdraw

Precise Shot: Now includes Point blank shot

Weapon Focus: Includes the benefits of original weapon specialization

Weapon Specialization: Now includes benefits of Greater Weapon focus and Specialization, Fighter bonus feat, but fighter levels not required.

Mobility: Now includes spring attack

Two Weapon Fighting: Includes improved and greater when prereqs are met

Two Weapon Defense: Includes improved and greater when prereqs are met

Eschew Materials: Now required for maximize, still, silent, empower (etc) spell.

Cleave: Now includes great cleave

I'd like to put Iron will in there, but for some reason, blind fight just doesn't fit in my thought process. Any other suggestions or comments are welcome.

[TheIronGolem]

Alright, I think I've got a decent idea on how to do this, starting a list now, picking and chosing from everyone's advice

Dodge: +1 Dodge bonus to AC, at every 5 levels bonus increases by +1, so +5 bonus at level 20. Not usable while flat footed

Endurance: Now includes toughness and die hard.

Great Fortitude: Now includes improved toughness

Lightning Reflexes: now includes quickdraw

Precise Shot: Now includes Point blank shot

Weapon Focus: Includes the benefits of original weapon specialization

Weapon Specialization: Now includes benefits of Greater Weapon focus and Specialization, Fighter bonus feat, but fighter levels not required.

Mobility: Now includes spring attack

Two Weapon Fighting: Includes improved and greater when prereqs are met

Two Weapon Defense: Includes improved and greater when prereqs are met

Eschew Materials: Now required for maximize, still, silent, empower (etc) spell.

Cleave: Now includes great cleave

I'd like to put Iron will in there, but for some reason, blind fight just doesn't fit in my thought process. Any other suggestions or comments are welcome.

I forgot to mention this one earlier, but I prefer to fold Quick Draw into Improved Initiative for that "iaijutsu" feel. I don't deny that there is some thematic synergy with Lighting Reflexes, though.

[Troacctid]

Shape Soulmeld and Open Chakra - Choose one Soulmeld, and then one Open Chakra which it may be bound do.

That's how it works as written, unless you're talking about consolidating least, lesser, and greater chakras into one feat, which seems...unbalanced.

[Grayson01]

I forgot to mention this one earlier, but I prefer to fold Quick Draw into Improved Initiative for that "iaijutsu" feel. I don't deny that there is some thematic synergy with Lighting Reflexes, though.

Yeah I agree with this one Improved Initative makes a bit more sense. Not that LR doesn't make sense plus I like II better as a feat.

[Angelalex242]

Improved Critical should also be in the Weapon Focus Tree, as it also applies to just one weapon.

[bekeleven]

Yeah I agree with this one Improved Initative makes a bit more sense. Not that LR doesn't make sense plus I like II better as a feat.

Improved initiative needs a buff? I still see tier 1s take it with all-book access...

Anyway, I threw it into LR because I was giving an extra feat to each +2 feat and it was the closest. Blind-Fight for iron will was a stretch, I admit.

[lytokk]

Alright, I think I've got a decent idea on how to do this, starting a list now, picking and chosing from everyone's advice

Dodge: +1 Dodge bonus to AC, at every 5 levels bonus increases by +1, so +5 bonus at level 20. Not usable while flat footed

Endurance: Now includes toughness and die hard.

Great Fortitude: Now includes improved toughness

Lightning Reflexes: now includes quickdraw

Precise Shot: Now includes Point blank shot

Weapon Focus: Includes the benefits of original weapon specialization

Weapon Specialization: Now includes benefits of Greater Weapon focus and Specialization, Fighter bonus feat, but fighter levels not required.

Mobility: Now includes spring attack

Two Weapon Fighting: Includes improved and greater when prereqs are met

Two Weapon Defense: Includes improved and greater when prereqs are met

Eschew Materials: Now required for maximize, still, silent, empower (etc) spell.

Cleave: Now includes great cleave

I'd like to put Iron will in there, but for some reason, blind fight just doesn't fit in my thought process. Any other suggestions or comments are welcome.

So, after my last gaming session, I've come up with a few new ideas on these condensations

Endurance: Just includes toughness now

Iron Will: has die hard (the psychic warrior was down and was able to do an autohypnosis check to stabilize. It makes sense to me that by sheer force of will you can keep yourself conscious when you're dying.)

Weapon Specialization: Now also includes Improved Critical, but only for fighters who take the feat. Part of the idea to make fighter a relevant class.

Thoughts?

[fishyfishyfishy]

For Toughness I actually combined and expanded the feat tree

Lesser Toughness: 3 HP and the benefits of Die Hard and Endurance
Toughness: Gives 6HP+1HP a level and you you gain +1 to your death threshold* for each feat in the toughness tree you have (Prereq is Lesser Toughness)
Improved Toughness: Gives 12HP+1HP a level and you gain Energy Resistance 1 (Fire/Cold/Acid/Electricity) for each feat in the toughness tree you have (Prereq is Toughness)
Greater Toughness: Gives 24HP+1HP a level and you gain DR 1/- for each feat in the toughness tree you have (Prereq is Improved Toughness)

I also allow them to be taken more than once and the effects stack
*(Death Threshold - In my house rules you aren't dead until negative CON score instead of a straight 10)

Cool idea, but what do you say to your player who shows up with their level one human character with two flaws and all of these feats chosen once each?

[lytokk]

Cool idea, but what do you say to your player who shows up with their level one human character with two flaws and all of these feats chosen once each?

"Sleep is a will save"

[Kamin_Majere]

Cool idea, but what do you say to your player who shows up with their level one human character with two flaws and all of these feats chosen once each?


"Sleep is a will save"

Pretty much that

The only class that can terribly "abuse" it is fighter, and I would be perfectly happy allowing them to play the mountain that will not move.

I actually used these feats in a game where most of my feats were the toughness feats, and while my character could soak a truly stupid amount of damage it is amazing how quickly simple things could take me out of the battle. I dont think there was a single will save that I passed that whole campaign... which was sad because when I didnt invest in the toughness feats I started boosting my will save and had the best one in the party lol.

So yeah as the fighter it was great fun trading punches with a stone giant and telling him he hit like a girl, it was also quite sad not being able to apprehend the low level rogue we were chasing that I would have easily pummeled to death with out breaking a sweat because he UMD'ed grease and I fell off a 4 story roof lol

[fishyfishyfishy]

Pretty much that

The only class that can terribly "abuse" it is fighter, and I would be perfectly happy allowing them to play the mountain that will not move.

I actually used these feats in a game where most of my feats were the toughness feats, and while my character could soak a truly stupid amount of damage it is amazing how quickly simple things could take me out of the battle. I dont think there was a single will save that I passed that whole campaign... which was sad because when I didnt invest in the toughness feats I started boosting my will save and had the best one in the party lol.

So yeah as the fighter it was great fun trading punches with a stone giant and telling him he hit like a girl, it was also quite sad not being able to apprehend the low level rogue we were chasing that I would have easily pummeled to death with out breaking a sweat because he UMD'ed grease and I fell off a 4 story roof lol

I want thinking more along the lines of a druid who uses all his feats on this tree, greenbound summoning, and natural spell. All the druid goodness plus they're even more impossible to take down. And their animal companion can take the feats to further invalidate the fighter...

Or imagine a wizard with this plus abrupt jaunt. Even if you do hit them they're not going to go down.

My point is that you are removing one of the only weaknesses the most powerful classes have.

I would at least give these a further prerequisite based on level or hit dice.

[Kamin_Majere]

Its a good point, but when have hit points ever been a weakness of druids that can wild shape or wizards that can polymorph? Hit points are literally the weakest defensive stat in the game and optimize vs optimize I'd much rather face a wizard or druid that has sunk feats into hit points than the ones that actually take feats that let them mass murder reality with their already reality murdering power.

Lets face it, is a Great Wyrm gold dragon any more or less difficult to kill if it has 100hp vs its 700ish? A smart dragon with its insane casting level isn't going to let things just chip away at its hit points unless its being played as a stupid meat sack, and its the same thing. Save or die's and save or sucks, battle field control and lock down are generally the ways optimized battles are won and hit points play the least important roll in keeping things alive.

So if a character wants to be a damage soaking sponge then cool, it's always better than other optimized builds of casters for the DM. Plus I generally build and combine feats with melee/skill characters in mind because i'm working with my players (or with a DM) to build a character they want to play. Casters have like 3500 spells that might as well be a big old feat bucket they can pull from at any given time and melee/skill characters are left with the few feats they get to pick every few levels