Most infuriating uses of cantrips

[malonkey1]

Once, in a Pathfinder game, my DM had dropped our group in a completely unknown environment, the idea being that much of our adventure would be for us to be lost. I was playing a Bard with know direction. This is where I first used a technique I called Bardic GPS. I cast know direction the moment I could. My GM chuckled, assuming that it wouldn't do me any good. Then I had the group hike for a few miles in one direction, and cast it again. I then calculated our latitude and longitude from the change in angle (our campaign world was spherical like Earth). My GM said that I had to roll Knowledge[Architecture and Engineering] (I forget the DC, but I wanna say...DC 35-ish? It's tricky math, especially for Medieval/Renaissance era.) to be able to do that math. Being a Bard, I aced the check, and quickly calculated our lat/long coordinates and we got home over the course of a few days.

Any of you guys have any amusing stories of enraging your DM with creative cantrip use?

[Gildedragon]

Cool trick, though can be replicated by anyone trained in Survival (5 ranks in 3.5)

Irritating cantripage: Arcane Marks and Message to defeat a maze: Monk-rogue runs ahead hiding, Message if finds a dead end or not, path gets marked (once for being explored, twice for dead ended)

Acid Splash to break out of jail via the floor (tunneling a small hole); a blanket to cover the hole under the bed.

Amanuensis to just copy the entire contents of the (suspected) villain's ledgers and writing desk

[Kazudo]

Once, in a Pathfinder game, my DM had dropped our group in a completely unknown environment, the idea being that much of our adventure would be for us to be lost. I was playing a Bard with know direction. This is where I first used a technique I called Bardic GPS. I cast know direction the moment I could. My GM chuckled, assuming that it wouldn't do me any good. Then I had the group hike for a few miles in one direction, and cast it again. I then calculated our latitude and longitude from the change in angle (our campaign world was spherical like Earth). My GM said that I had to roll Knowledge[Architecture and Engineering] (I forget the DC, but I wanna say...DC 35-ish? It's tricky math, especially for Medieval/Renaissance era.) to be able to do that math. Being a Bard, I aced the check, and quickly calculated our lat/long coordinates and we got home over the course of a few days.

Any of you guys have any amusing stories of enraging your DM with creative cantrip use?

Two Words: Mage Hand.

The DM had us in what he assumed was a good sturdy trap. The lock was of a DC that the Rogue couldn't pick, we were low level and had no amazable tricks up our sleeves, he'd taken my wizard's spellbook and the cleric's holy symbol and the fighter's...well...everything, as well as the Barbarian's freedom (shackles. Poor guy.) But he had the guard be a dummy and leave a completely unattended non-magical keyring weighing less than five pounds on a table while he went to take a leak, and all within 30 feet from the wall. When he handed me the card that he had written about the keys, it included that it contained unlabeled keys. It took a few minutes before we got into the Chest of Prisoner Gear (tm) and I was able to get my Gloves of Item Sensing (or whatever) on, at which point I felt each key individually to get us entirely out of the dungeon. He was planning on making us have to reckon with the BBEG.

Good times.

[Yanisa]

Detect Magic at Will can be infuriating in the hands of the wrong person.

So my group was exploring some cultist temple, lots of magic traps and detect magic was a good substitute for not having a rogue. At some point they find the hallway to the sleeping rooms and a quick Detect Magic didn't reveal anything, because I didn't had loot or traps planned in the hallway. So they opened the first door and some cultist jumps out. The druid, who was the detect magic caster, instantly asked: "Does he have spells or magic items?". I flip trough my notes and go: "Yes. Roll spell..." then he interrupted me and got mad because he should have detected magic trough the door. It went to an argument about how thick a middle age door was before I decided the thing was cased with lead because of paranoid cultist.

Ever since all my doors and walls have lead in them, because I am too lazy to check every room and every planned encounter past the current room the party should be focusing on.

[malonkey1]

Cool trick, though can be replicated by anyone trained in Survival (5 ranks in 3.5)

Our Ranger was comatose at the time (due to his own idiocy), but I agree. I was working with what I had. DM was pretty peeved, though.


Irritating cantripage: Arcane Marks and Message to defeat a maze: Monk-rogue runs ahead hiding, Message if finds a dead end or not, path gets marked (once for being explored, twice for dead ended)

Now that's genius.


Acid Splash to break out of jail via the floor (tunneling a small hole); a blanket to cover the hole under the bed.

I like that. You'd need to take a while for it, but yeah.


Amanuensis to just copy the entire contents of the (suspected) villain's ledgers and writing desk

I like that.

[Kazudo]

Are we including Orisons with those Cantrips?

[ryu]

Prestidigitation->Lava Immunity. And that naive fire elemental thought it was safe from me. Turns out that it really just wasn't.

[Doc_Maynot]

A. It only give fire resistance to an object, not a creature.
B. Though it may not always be used, Rule Compendium clarifies that Fire resistance is still only resistance and not immunity to lava damage.

In regards to arcane mark, I once had a player who used it like crazy. He would graffiti the party's wagons, fellow party members, etc. Though in his defense using it on the party members turned out fruitful when a doppelganger infiltrated their midst during a murder investigation. One use of detect magic and BAM! He knew who was the real one.

[malonkey1]

Are we including Orisons with those Cantrips?

Yes. When I say cantrips, I mean 0-level spells.

[xroads]

This is a story that's been passed down from friend to friend to a friend.


Once a long time ago, a powerful wizard soloed a dungeon designed by a most evil master of dungeons. Though the challenges were tough, the heroines emerged from the dungeon victorious.

But her final challenge that day had not yet been met. For as soon as she emerged, a band of bandits ambushed her. Weak and tired from her long ordeal in the dungeon, she had not but one spell to cast in her defense. A mere cantrip.

With finesse of mind she wielded that cantrip in the most effective way she could. That cantrip was called "Itch". And she casted it on the crotch of the bandit leader.

Immediately the bandit leader was itching and scratching his crotch like crazy. Wailing and thrashing about with such vigor that the remaining bandits feared he may very well wake the dead. The bandits soon made haste, their flight empowered by their fear. And trailing behind them, hopping mad but still wailing, was their wicked leader.

And so it said amongst the locals to this day, that an "itch saved a witch."

[A Tad Insane]

Had a friend who played a cleric who would always do non-lethal damage to take down his enemies, then say "You have my permission to die" and cast bleed on them

[Gildedragon]

Had a friend who played a cleric who would always do non-lethal damage to take down his enemies, then say "You have my permission to die" and cast bleed on them

The Pathfinder one? That doesn't do anything if you dealt non-lethal damage for 2 reasons: first, the target needs to have negative HP, non-lethal damage doesn't reduce HP, it is a separate track; second, it needs the target to have been dying, you can't get to dying from nld.

[BlackDog918]

Fun little use of Arcane Mark:
Since it's a touch spell, it can be used with the magus' spell combat and spellstrike class features to gain an extra attack.

[A Tad Insane]

The Pathfinder one? That doesn't do anything if you dealt non-lethal damage for 2 reasons: first, the target needs to have negative HP, non-lethal damage doesn't reduce HP, it is a separate track; second, it needs the target to have been dying, you can't get to dying from nld.

He would do lethal all the way up to when our dm said his targets were looking almost dead, then do a knockout blow. When he first did it, our dm said he needed legally done negative hit points. So the cleric slashed every ko'ed enemy, caste stabilize, then said the line and killed them. After 2 more encounters like this, the dm let him go from nonlethal knockout straight to bain mode

[Kudaku]

I'm playing a gillman arcanist in a Skull & Shackles campaign who tries to solve as many problems as possible with Create Water. My proudest moment was probably when I turned the "hot box (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Box_(torture))" punishment into a steam sauna.

[grarrrg]

The Pathfinder one? That doesn't do anything if you dealt non-lethal damage for 2 reasons: first, the target needs to have negative HP, non-lethal damage doesn't reduce HP, it is a separate track...you can't get to dying from nld.

Correction, Nonlethal damage doesn't reduce HP _right away_.
Nonlethal > Staggered (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Nonlethal-Damage):
"If a creature's nonlethal damage is equal to his total maximum hit points (not his current hit points), all further nonlethal damage is treated as lethal damage."

If Nonlethal damage = Current HP you are Staggered.
If Nonlethal > Current HP, you are Unconscious.
If Nonlethal = Maximum HP, then convert any extra Nonlethal into Lethal.

So you can get Lethal damage from Nonlethal, it just takes longer.

[Alex12]

Prestidigitation can do anything.
Is being covered in blood and less savory things giving you a circumstance penalty to your Diplomacy check? Prestidigitation.
Party members covered in vomit after a night of drinking? Prestidigitation.
The ashes of your incinerated foes making it hard to find their loot? Prestidigitation.
Forget to bring a way to start a fire? Prestidigitation.

Also, my undead arcanist used Detect Magic while walking along the ocean floor around some recent shipwrecks to get some magical items.

[Gildedragon]

Correction, Nonlethal damage doesn't reduce HP _right away_.
Nonlethal > Staggered (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Nonlethal-Damage):
"If a creature's nonlethal damage is equal to his total maximum hit points (not his current hit points), all further nonlethal damage is treated as lethal damage."

If Nonlethal damage = Current HP you are Staggered.
If Nonlethal > Current HP, you are Unconscious.
If Nonlethal = Maximum HP, then convert any extra Nonlethal into Lethal.

So you can get Lethal damage from Nonlethal, it just takes longer.
True. My bad.

[TuggyNE]

Correction, Nonlethal damage doesn't reduce HP _right away_.
Nonlethal > Staggered (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Nonlethal-Damage):
"If a creature's nonlethal damage is equal to his total maximum hit points (not his current hit points), all further nonlethal damage is treated as lethal damage."

If Nonlethal damage = Current HP you are Staggered.
If Nonlethal > Current HP, you are Unconscious.
If Nonlethal = Maximum HP, then convert any extra Nonlethal into Lethal.

So you can get Lethal damage from Nonlethal, it just takes longer.

Right, in PF it takes (at least) twice as much nonlethal damage to get someone to dying as it does lethal damage. (Which means that it's a pretty massively suboptimal tactic, really.)

[grarrrg]

Right, in PF it takes (at least) twice as much nonlethal damage to get someone to dying as it does lethal damage. (Which means that it's a pretty massively suboptimal tactic, really.)

Yes and no.
While dying/death is the ultimate goal, dropping them Unconscious and putting them out of the fight is just as good, as you can just come back and finish them later.
Granted, you still need to do enough combined damage to get them to (effective) -1 to knock them out.
BUT there are a couple ways to _really_ boost Nonlethal damage. The main one is to use the Sap Adept (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/sap-adept-combat) > Sap Master (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/sap-master-combat) feats.
They both only work if you are doing Bludgeoning-Nonlethal-Sneak Attack damage.
Sap Adept does +2 damage per Sneak Die
Sap Master can straight up double Sneak damage (including the bonus from Adept)
Double-Plus Sneak Damage is nothing to sneeze at, and can very quickly drop someone Unconscious.

The main downside is if you combine Lethal and Nonlethal damage AND the bad-guys have magic healing, the healing counts "double".


More on topic, there is always the abuse of Glorious Heat (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/glorious-heat) and Spark (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/spark). Infinite healing!
Special note: despite the unofficial errata that 'fixed' this feat, they recently reprinted it withOUT the unofficial errata, completely botching any/all attempts to make the errata actually official. HOORAY! Another bonehead Paizo move!

[Kane0]

People that use detect X spells like radar.

[ryu]

Flooding an entire cave system over the course of a few hours with create water just to flush out the mundane hiding inside. He'd either walk into a total ambush or drown someday. Truly it was the most passive of aggression. Also this exactly what happens when you give me access to to an unlimited use alternative to a problem or just unlimited use tools in general. Given time everything WILL be leveraged.

[The Grue]

Flooding an entire cave system over the course of a few hours with create water just to flush out the mundane hiding inside.

Given that said water is created in 2 gallon/level volumes every six seconds "in an area as small as will actually contain the liquid, or in an area three times as large (http://paizo.com/prd/spells/createWater.html)", that must be a very small cave.

[Tanuki Tales]

Didn't we already have a thread that devolved into an argument about how Create Water doesn't work that way?

[ryu]

Given that said water is created in 2 gallon/level volumes every six seconds "in an area as small as will actually contain the liquid, or in an area three times as large (http://paizo.com/prd/spells/createWater.html)", that must be a very small cave.

I don't think you're fully comprehending just how passive the aggression involved was.

[Husher]

Dancing lights. Dancing mother f****** lights.

Its a medium range spell whitch lets you move four lights however you wish within a ten foot radius of each other. Sounds pretty innocuous and hard to abuse right? Wrong.
You put four torch-bright lights 100+ feet in the sky at night and those little buggers will be visible for miles.

I had a party design a simple semaphore system using this spell. Nothing too complex, but it allowed them to communicate with each other on the cheap when they split up. No real problem there and I was impressed with their ingenuity.

The problem arose later in the campaign when they were aiding a small but rather militaristic nation of gnomes. After a bit of discussion about how they could figure out where an invading army was going to come from, one of my players asks, "Wait, they can all cast dancing lights? ALL of them?"

Thus began the gnomish semaphore communication revolution. In a few rounds information could travel hundreds of miles along the already existing network of forts set up around the country. By the time the poor orc army got within bow range of the first border fort, the entire damn army knew exactly where they were, how many of them there were, and how well they were armed.

That little experience worked so well that the bard decided to spend some time, cash, and skill points to codify a semaphore "language". And of course he then tried (with some success 'cause it's a bloody brilliant idea) to sell manuals and lessons on it to the armies of pretty much every country they ever visited after that point.

Infinite fast communication across kingdom-scale distances, all thanks to a 0 level spell. I still don't know if it's the most genius use of a cantrip I've ever seen, or the most ridiculous.

[MirddinEmris]

To OP:
Eh, i don't think that you should be able to do that with this cantrip. The fact that you know direction to the north doesn't mean that you can measure the difference between them in different spots.

[The Grue]

I don't think you're fully comprehending just how passive the aggression involved was.

Said aggression could be more passive than Ghandi on marijuana; it wouldn't matter because Create Water doesn't work that way.

[Gildedragon]

Dancing lights. Dancing mother f****** lights.

Its a medium range spell whitch lets you move four lights however you wish within a ten foot radius of each other. Sounds pretty innocuous and hard to abuse right? Wrong.
You put four torch-bright lights 100+ feet in the sky at night and those little buggers will be visible for miles.

I had a party design a simple semaphore system using this spell. Nothing too complex, but it allowed them to communicate with each other on the cheap when they split up. No real problem there and I was impressed with their ingenuity.

The problem arose later in the campaign when they were aiding a small but rather militaristic nation of gnomes. After a bit of discussion about how they could figure out where an invading army was going to come from, one of my players asks, "Wait, they can all cast dancing lights? ALL of them?"

Thus began the gnomish semaphore communication revolution. In a few rounds information could travel hundreds of miles along the already existing network of forts set up around the country. By the time the poor orc army got within bow range of the first border fort, the entire damn army knew exactly where they were, how many of them there were, and how well they were armed.

That little experience worked so well that the bard decided to spend some time, cash, and skill points to codify a semaphore "language". And of course he then tried (with some success 'cause it's a bloody brilliant idea) to sell manuals and lessons on it to the armies of pretty much every country they ever visited after that point.

Infinite fast communication across kingdom-scale distances, all thanks to a 0 level spell. I still don't know if it's the most genius use of a cantrip I've ever seen, or the most ridiculous.

OMGENIUS! I love it!

[Gildedragon]

Said aggression could be more passive than Ghandi on marijuana; it wouldn't matter because Create Water doesn't work that way.

Sure it will, tipping container like a deer-scarer... yeah really slow but 3.5 created water won't vanish after a day.


To OP:
Eh, i don't think that you should be able to do that with this cantrip. The fact that you know direction to the north doesn't mean that you can measure the difference between them in different spots.
Why not. As long as you got some third object (a mountain for example) by which you establish the angle of your first and second northings you ought be fine Or if you can see the spot where you cast your first northing.

[Deophaun]

Sure it will, tipping container like a deer-scarer... yeah really slow but 3.5 created water won't vanish after a day.
Maybe not vanish-vanish, but if the cave system hasn't already been filled with water by natural forces, that means there's a form of drainage somewhere.

[MirddinEmris]

Why not. As long as you got some third object (a mountain for example) by which you establish the angle of your first and second northings you ought be fine Or if you can see the spot where you cast your first northing.

Look at the tree (that way you, of course, will know direction to the tree). Step 5 meters in some direction. Look at the tree again. Calculate the angles of the resulted triangle (tree, first point, second point), using just this knowledge.

Not to say, that difference between the angles of direction from such short travel will require very precise measuring instrument to calculate you position even with established angles.

[Gildedragon]

To OP:
Eh, i don't think that you should be able to do that with this cantrip. The fact that you know direction to the north doesn't mean that you can measure the difference between them in different spots.

Actually you don't need the tree at all.

You know north from spot one. You walk perpendicular to north until you get to spot 2. You cast know north. You know the distance between both spots. You can get the angle between them by having picked spot 1 to be visible from spot 2
The tree works as a point of reference if you won't be moving perfectly perpendicular.
So now you know the angles of spot 1 to True North, and spot 2 to true north
if you know the curve of the earth then you can find out your position
I am not particularly good at trig (esp non euclidean) but yeah this fills up enough of the equation.

You travel more than 5' or 5meters. A day's travel might be enough.

[Anlashok]

Maybe not vanish-vanish, but if the cave system hasn't already been filled with water by natural forces, that means there's a form of drainage somewhere.

But not necessarily enough drainage to outpace the 6 gallons a second a high level cleric could manage.

I'm not sure why there's so much consternation over how the spell works either, it seems pretty straight forward.

[MirddinEmris]

Actually you don't need the tree at all.

You know north from spot one. You walk perpendicular to north until you get to spot 2. You cast know north. You know the distance between both spots. You can get the angle between them by having picked spot 1 to be visible from spot 2
The tree works as a point of reference if you won't be moving perfectly perpendicular.
So now you know the angles of spot 1 to True North, and spot 2 to true north
if you know the curve of the earth then you can find out your position
I am not particularly good at trig (esp non euclidean) but yeah this fills up enough of the equation.

You travel more than 5' or 5meters. A day's travel might be enough.

Tree was just an example (instead of north, not as landmark). You know the direction to the tree because you see it and you know that direction changed from second spot, but you don't know numbers. The spell only makes you "know direction" and not "been able to draw the line perfectly to the north from your position" and not "been able to tell difference between directions in preferable calculation system".

About your example. How are you able to measure that you are walking exactly perpendicular to nort? Humnas aren't calculators and not very precise measuring machine.
"You can get the angle between them by having picked spot 1 to be visible from spot 2"
No, you do not. Did you draw lines from bot of your locations (and with what accuracy did you do that)? Do you have protractor to measure this lines? The knowledge of direction from your head doesn't coverse really well in numbers.

In other words "North is that way" is not the same as "I know precisely what angular change of direction to North between my two castings happened"

[Gildedragon]

Tree was just an example (instead of north, not as landmark). You know the direction to the tree because you see it and you know that direction changed from second spot, but you don't know numbers. The spell only makes you "know direction" and not "been able to draw the line perfectly to the north from your position" and not "been able to tell difference between directions in preferable calculation system".

About your example. How are you able to measure that you are walking exactly perpendicular to nort? Humnas aren't calculators and not very precise measuring machine.
"You can get the angle between them by having picked spot 1 to be visible from spot 2"
No, you do not. Did you draw lines from bot of your locations (and with what accuracy did you do that)? Do you have protractor to measure this lines? The knowledge of direction from your head doesn't coverse really well in numbers.

In other words "North is that way" is not the same as "I know precisely what angular change of direction to North between my two castings happened"

The spell acts like a compass. If you can sight the site of the first casting (which has a second site lined up with north to establish a bearing from site 1) from site 2 you can...
otherwise you wouldn't be able to do it with a compass, which one can, provided one has the mathematical knowhow. Otherwise ships, sailors, merchants, and cartographers couldn't have done it. It is specialized knowledge but that is besides the point.

[MirddinEmris]

The spell acts like a compass. If you can sight the site of the first casting (which has a second site lined up with north to establish a bearing from site 1) from site 2 you can...
otherwise you wouldn't be able to do it with a compass, which one can, provided one has the mathematical knowhow. Otherwise ships, sailors, merchants, and cartographers couldn't have done it. It is specialized knowledge but that is besides the point.


When you cast this spell, you instantly know the direction of north from your current position. The spell is effective in any environment in which "north" exists, but it may not work in extraplanar settings. Your knowledge of north is correct at the moment of casting, but you can get lost again within moments if you don't find some external reference point to help you keep track of direction.

So, not exactly like complas, where you have this measurement steps already drawn)) Imagine compass with only arrow (and existing only in your head, so that it's really hard to put on the map surface). You really can't calculate something like this without measurement tools. The spell provides you with direction, but not with exact measurements.

[Bakeru]

Dancing lights. Dancing mother f****** lights.

[...]

That little experience worked so well that the bard decided to spend some time, cash, and skill points to codify a semaphore "language". And of course he then tried (with some success 'cause it's a bloody brilliant idea) to sell manuals and lessons on it to the armies of pretty much every country they ever visited after that point.

Infinite fast communication across kingdom-scale distances, all thanks to a 0 level spell. I still don't know if it's the most genius use of a cantrip I've ever seen, or the most ridiculous.

If I'm not mistaken, Faerun-Drow already do that. Drow Sign Language is developed so that it can be "spoken" both with hand gestures and Dancing Lights, while also only being accurately readable when you're looking at them from the right direction, because angle of the symbols is a factor (if you're looking from the wrong angle, you get a penalty on checks to try to decipher the meaning).
At last, they use their Dancing Lights to mimic campfires, to make their armies look bigger then they are.

[Twilightwyrm]

In regards to arcane mark, I once had a player who used it like crazy. He would graffiti the party's wagons, fellow party members, etc. Though in his defense using it on the party members turned out fruitful when a doppelganger infiltrated their midst during a murder investigation. One use of detect magic and BAM! He knew who was the real one.

Actually, I'm fairly certain using Detect Magic to see through a Doppleganger's disguise doesn't work. This is because it is a Supernatural ability, rather than a Spell-like ability, hence it would not show up under the aura for a "Functioning Spell" or "Magic Item". So as far as Detect Magic is concerned, the Doppleganger is not giving off any magic aura (barring it having some other magic aura in place. Not, however, that doppleganger is difficult to defeat that previously mentioned Arcane Mark, applied to every member of the party beforehand can serve as an identifier, as can a basic sleep/charm test.

[Bakeru]

Actually, I'm fairly certain using Detect Magic to see through a Doppleganger's disguise doesn't work.I would agree, but that's not what Doc Maynot described. The Character marked everything with Arcane Mark, including his teammates.
The Doppelganger wasn't marked with an arcane mark, but the teammate was, so it was obvious who was the Doppelganger. Hence, "using [Arcane Mark] on the party members turned out fruitful".

[Spore]

While not "most useful", certainly quite annoying: Spamming guidance out of combat. Also there is "create water" to counter invisibility, casting light on every piece of equipment you have and using Message (SR no, Saving Throw non) to whisper constantly into the ear of the paranoid dwarf.

[The Grue]

casting light on every piece of equipment you have

Works in 3.5 provided you have more 0-level spell slots than equipment. Does not work in Pathfinder.


You can only have one light spell active at any one time. If you cast this spell while another casting is still in effect, the previous casting is dispelled.

As with the last time there was a thread about cantrips, it seems that most of the "infuriating" uses brought up are more a result of misreading.

[Tanuki Tales]

But not necessarily enough drainage to outpace the 6 gallons a second a high level cleric could manage.

I'm not sure why there's so much consternation over how the spell works either, it seems pretty straight forward.

Because we already had a thread that pointed out how geologically unlikely the scenario is.

[Chronos]

The OP's trick couldn't tell you longitude at all. It could, in principle, tell you latitude, if you were capable of extremely precise measurements, but there's no way a human without modern equipment could make such precise measurements. No, you can't argue "but real navigators did it!", because they didn't: They did determine latitude, but using far simpler methods, which don't even require a compass (or equivalent magic).

EDIT: Forgot to add my own examples. My group plays 3.5, not PF, but we've houseruled that cantrips are free, for much the same effect. One time we were in a room, and this skull thing wanted us to pay it to let us pass. We all figured there was probably some sort of trap right next to the skull. I said "OK, I'll stay right here, and put down a couple of gold pieces next to the skull.". The DM asked "What, you're just going to will the gold pieces to move across the room?". "Yeah, pretty much." "...That doesn't work." "It does when you have Prestidigitation at will."

Oh, and there is absolutely no problem that cannot be solved by appropriate application of Summon Instrument. Need a ten-foot pole? Summon Didgeridoo. Need something to brace a door open? Summon Trombone. Need something big and heavy to throw? Summon Tuba. Need to get to the bottom of a pit? Summon Bagpipes, repeatedly, to make a pile to break your fall.

[Doc_Maynot]

I would agree, but that's not what Doc Maynot described. The Character marked everything with Arcane Mark, including his teammates.
The Doppelganger wasn't marked with an arcane mark, but the teammate was, so it was obvious who was the Doppelganger. Hence, "using [Arcane Mark] on the party members turned out fruitful".

Just to confirm, that is what happened. They lit up like a Christmas tree.

[Killer Angel]

Oh, and there is absolutely no problem that cannot be solved by appropriate application of Summon Instrument. Need a ten-foot pole? Summon Didgeridoo.

Probably, you can also set an Alpenhorn against a mounted charge... :smallbiggrin:

[xroads]

But not necessarily enough drainage to outpace the 6 gallons a second a high level cleric could manage.

I'm not sure why there's so much consternation over how the spell works either, it seems pretty straight forward.

Interesting. Assuming a negligible drainage (perhaps a cave found in a currently arid environment), that means that a moderate level cleric, conjuring 6 gallons a round, could fill a 10’ x 10’ x 10’ cave in a little over 2 minutes.

At near epic levels (20th), since there is no cap on the number of gallons (I think), a cleric can fill the same cave in about 19 seconds.

This of course assumes I did my math right. :smallbiggrin:

Edit: Ooops! Looks like I did do my math wrong. So I fixed it (hopefully).

[Arc_knight25]

We annoy our DM in our PF campaign with detect magic. Since its a cantrip and you have infinite uses almost every room we come into, every object we find. Its to the point were he just rolls his eyes and says what's your spellcraft check.

[Chronos]

Quoth Killer Angel:

Probably, you can also set an Alpenhorn against a mounted charge...
I so wanted to use an alphorn, but just never had the right situation come up. Plus it's debatable whether one of those is a "hand-held instrument".

[Socksy]

Mage Hand cast by my 8oz wizard to carry himself and his gear.

[Angelalex242]

There's pretty much no reason to not have all the Orison buffs 'on' at all times. You never know when you might need guidance, resistance, and so on.

Detections are also brilliant.

Detect Magic should be cast early and often.

Paladins get to treat Detect Evil as an Orison too, and use their 'evildar' to avoid ambushes. That evil rogue may have +40 to hide, but he doesn't have +40 to hide alignment. That invisible evil wizard may be invisible, but his alignment isn't, and detect magic will point him out too.

[atemu1234]

Prestidigitation to make flowers for a +2 circumstance bonus on diplomacy. For a bard. This wound up getting him married to a princess. He was level 2.

[Doc_Maynot]

Paladins get to treat Detect Evil as an Orison too, and use their 'evildar' to avoid ambushes. That evil rogue may have +40 to hide, but he doesn't have +40 to hide alignment. That invisible evil wizard may be invisible, but his alignment isn't, and detect magic will point him out too.

However if it was 3.P and he had +60 Bluff... (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#bluff)

[ArqArturo]

Prestidigitation can make you a decent cook... Or a devious SOB.

*Prestidigitation on a flask of acid* 'Here, have some water'.

Also, in 3.5, all damage-dealing cantrips are well-used by Warmages.

In PF, Detect X is sort of a problem because of the radar effect, but it's not really that game-breaking, if you force the players to use their other strong points, such as Perception.

Also, a player had a cleric with a cruel streak that would Bleed and Stabilize his victims' allies as a way of torture/fun.

[malonkey1]

These will all be great to keep in mind for my E1 game.

[Angelalex242]

Well, in 3.5, the Paladin generally has 0 ranks in spot and listen. To the point his mount tends to be his 'seeing eye horse.'

As such, he's better off letting the party rogue, ranger, or monk use spot and listen while he searches for evil.

Detect Magic lets the wizard participate in ambush and trap avoidance as well.

Rogue:I don't see any traps.
Wizard:I see magic right over there. Check again.

[WarKitty]

One mage hand loaded up with all the holy water we had (which was a lot). Move over demon and then dispel.

[ArqArturo]

Well, in 3.5, the Paladin generally has 0 ranks in spot and listen. To the point his mount tends to be his 'seeing eye horse.'

As such, he's better off letting the party rogue, ranger, or monk use spot and listen while he searches for evil.

Detect Magic lets the wizard participate in ambush and trap avoidance as well.

Rogue:I don't see any traps.
Wizard:I see magic right over there. Check again.

And Paladins feel a Disturbance in the Force... of Evil :smallbiggrin:.

[dascarletm]

Start of campaign, the group and I are in a small village in the middle of a warzone between two nations. One devil influenced. A scout from the devil's side (The one the group wants to join). Gets killed near us. Handing us a sealed envelope. He instructs us to not open it, and bring it to such and such a person in such and such a city. The penalty being execution. After he succumbs to his wounds, My character, the wizard casts detect magic on the envelope.

DM: It's non-magical, just a normal envelope, nothing special.
Me: :smallamused: I cast Amaneusis.
DM: :smallconfused:What's that?
Me: Copys any non-magical text. I will be able to read what is inside.
DM: Ummm... well.... damnit Mike! It doesn't work.:smallmad:
Me: You said it was non-magical.... Nothing special if I recall...:smallwink:
DM: Well that spell doesn't work on this object! :smallfurious:

[Gildedragon]

Start of campaign, the group and I are in a small village in the middle of a warzone between two nations. One devil influenced. A scout from the devil's side (The one the group wants to join). Gets killed near us. Handing us a sealed envelope. He instructs us to not open it, and bring it to such and such a person in such and such a city. The penalty being execution. After he succumbs to his wounds, My character, the wizard casts detect magic on the envelope.

DM: It's non-magical, just a normal envelope, nothing special.
Me: :smallamused: I cast Amaneusis.
DM: :smallconfused:What's that?
Me: Copys any non-magical text. I will be able to read what is inside.
DM: Ummm... well.... damnit Mike! It doesn't work.:smallmad:
Me: You said it was non-magical.... Nothing special if I recall...:smallwink:
DM: Well that spell doesn't work on this object! :smallfurious:
Well clearly it was a rebus!

[malonkey1]

Start of campaign, the group and I are in a small village in the middle of a warzone between two nations. One devil influenced. A scout from the devil's side (The one the group wants to join). Gets killed near us. Handing us a sealed envelope. He instructs us to not open it, and bring it to such and such a person in such and such a city. The penalty being execution. After he succumbs to his wounds, My character, the wizard casts detect magic on the envelope.

DM: It's non-magical, just a normal envelope, nothing special.
Me: :smallamused: I cast Amaneusis.
DM: :smallconfused:What's that?
Me: Copys any non-magical text. I will be able to read what is inside.
DM: Ummm... well.... damnit Mike! It doesn't work.:smallmad:
Me: You said it was non-magical.... Nothing special if I recall...:smallwink:
DM: Well that spell doesn't work on this object! :smallfurious:

That wouldn't work. You don't have a line of sight to the letter in the envelope.

[dascarletm]

That wouldn't work. You don't have a line of sight to the letter in the envelope.

Letters are not hermetically sealed last I checked. Especially ones sealed by wax. The sticky envelopes we have today were not in production back then.

[Kudaku]

That wouldn't work. You don't have a line of sight to the letter in the envelope.

I was just about to say this - unless the text was written on the envelope itself, the envelope would block line of sight (and line of effect). You wouldn't be able to copy the contents without opening the envelope.

[Gildedragon]

I was just about to say this - unless the text was written on the envelope itself, the envelope would block line of sight (and line of effect). You wouldn't be able to copy the contents without opening the envelope.

Except such a ruling would impede targeting the second sheet of paper in an inbox.

[ArqArturo]

You could use a candle to read the text in an enveloped letter.

[malonkey1]

You could use a candle to read the text in an enveloped letter.

This is probably true, assuming no magical seal.

[Tanuki Tales]

Amanuesis is a third level spell, not a cantrip (as far as my google-fu has turned up) and isn't from Pathfinder. And it's questionable whether it would work on a sealed envelope or not. You could argue a book being evidence it would, but the book is what is being targeted, not the pages inside the book.

Also, it's simple to defeat that spell in the situation given. Just say that the letter is written in a cypher split between two main languages and a self-made code; the spell doesn't translate afterall.

[dascarletm]

Amanuesis is a third level spell, not a cantrip (as far as my google-fu has turned up) and isn't from Pathfinder. And it's questionable whether it would work on a sealed envelope or not. You could argue a book being evidence it would, but the book is what is being targeted, not the pages inside the book.

Also, it's simple to defeat that spell in the situation given. Just say that the letter is written in a cypher split between two main languages and a self-made code; the spell doesn't translate afterall.

It's in the spell compendium, and while it isn't from pathfinder originally I recall seeing that the DM could port in 3.5 material. Which we did with the spell compendium. I had forgot that's 3.5 originally

[Gildedragon]

Amanuesis is a third level spell, not a cantrip (as far as my google-fu has turned up) and isn't from Pathfinder. And it's questionable whether it would work on a sealed envelope or not. You could argue a book being evidence it would, but the book is what is being targeted, not the pages inside the book.

Also, it's simple to defeat that spell in the situation given. Just say that the letter is written in a cypher split between two main languages and a self-made code; the spell doesn't translate afterall.

Cantrip, Spell Compendium
A rebus also defeats it
As might a logographic language or using Wingdings for encryption

Ooooor wingdings and typographic marks count as text and the cleric-paladin uses that to make Unicode art for his pamphlets of "WeeJaz: Goddess of love and caring; or Undeath is not that terrible" and "Hieroneus's Hand: Law because you Love"

[Yanisa]

So Amanuesis went from a level third spell in 3.0 (Magic of Faerun on page 77) to a cantrip in 3.5 (Spell Compendium on page 9)...

That seems odd. :smallconfused:

[Tanuki Tales]

Cantrip, Spell Compendium
A rebus also defeats it
As might a logographic language or using Wingdings for encription

So they changed it from a 3rd level spell to a cantrip? :smallconfused:

Where the hell is the logic in that? I could see knocking it down to a 2nd level or 1st level at a stretch, but it's too good for a cantrip.

[Kudaku]

Except such a ruling would impede targeting the second sheet of paper in an inbox.

Unless you rifled through the papers as you copied them, yes? Personally I don't have a problem with that.

[Kazudo]

2. Using dawn to wake up the members of the party who AREN'T immune to sleep repeatedly while the DM tries to put us to sleep by his BBEG.

3. Feigning unconsciousness with a disguise check to act in character, then "waking up" before the party and using stick alongside mage hand to affix the cleric's holy symbol 30 feet up an unclimbable wall behind some rafters, nearly completely obscured from view, right before we were taken into an interrogation room and all of our equipment taken from us so we could be tortured. After the first session, I used a mage hand to get the thing back down long enough for the cleric to do his thing and break some stuff. Did the same thing to my own Spellbook at one point later in the same campaign. Thankful for Spell Mastery.

4. Using silent portal to open the door right behind a guard while explaining my plan to my party members to avoid being noticed. The wizard was casting all kinds of spells back there. Then, the fighter stabbed him in the back and we beat the tar out of him. Apparently he was really high level and was supposed to keep us in there and deter us from leaving for a while. Oops.

[Twilightwyrm]

Just to confirm, that is what happened. They lit up like a Christmas tree.
Ah I see. I apologize for the confusion.

[Deophaun]

Prestidigitation can make you a decent cook... Or a devious SOB.

*Prestidigitation on a flask of acid* 'Here, have some water'.
Johnny was a chemist's son
But now he is no more
What he thought was H2O
Was H2SO4

[Renen]

Melting handcuffs with 1 acid damage per cast cantrip

[malonkey1]

Melting handcuffs with 1 acid damage per cast cantrip

No good. That's got somatic components

[The Grue]

No good. That's got somatic components

Also objects take half damage from energy attacks, rounded down, before applying hardness.

[Deophaun]

Also objects take half damage from energy attacks, rounded down, before applying hardness.
Except Acid and Sonic, which deal full damage before hardness.

Either way, hardness is going to kill you unless you're a warmage.

[Gildedragon]

Except Acid and Sonic, which deal full damage before hardness.

Either way, hardness is going to kill you unless you're a warmage.

Sonic Snap or Horzikaul's Cough have a great potential for abuse. Esp. the latter's strikes unerringly bit.

Also keep doing it to keep someone deaf.

[TuggyNE]

Also objects take half damage from energy attacks, rounded down, before applying hardness.

And acid does not necessarily ignore hardness, either, as some believe.

[JohnnyCancer]

There's an eyrines who specializes in the use of a bow in Paizo's Shackled City. Our fighter disarmed her and my mage scooped up the bow with mage hand, depriving her of her optimized attacks.

[Flame of Anor]

Detect Magic at Will can be infuriating in the hands of the wrong person.

So my group was exploring some cultist temple, lots of magic traps and detect magic was a good substitute for not having a rogue. At some point they find the hallway to the sleeping rooms and a quick Detect Magic didn't reveal anything, because I didn't had loot or traps planned in the hallway. So they opened the first door and some cultist jumps out. The druid, who was the detect magic caster, instantly asked: "Does he have spells or magic items?". I flip trough my notes and go: "Yes. Roll spell..." then he interrupted me and got mad because he should have detected magic trough the door. It went to an argument about how thick a middle age door was before I decided the thing was cased with lead because of paranoid cultist.

Ever since all my doors and walls have lead in them, because I am too lazy to check every room and every planned encounter past the current room the party should be focusing on.

You know it takes three feet of wood to block detect magic, right? I doubt a three-foot-thick wooden door has ever existed in the world.

[avr]

You know it takes three feet of wood to block detect magic, right? I doubt a three-foot-thick wooden door has ever existed in the world.
External medieval castle doors were about 3-4 inches thick though often clad in iron. Internal doors would be maybe half that. Three feet does seem a bit excessive; the lead the cultists were using for paranoia's sake seems simpler though if it was entirely coating the rooms you live in you'd want the odd neutralise poison cast on you!

[Yanisa]

You know it takes three feet of wood to block detect magic, right? I doubt a three-foot-thick wooden door has ever existed in the world.

Didn't stop an argument about ye olde doormakers. Although I, as the DM, admitted, with a heavy sigh, that he should have seen the target, the brother of the druid tried to help me out by pointing out medieval doors were thicker.

I did later use it against them, where the detect magic revealed magic in the chamber up ahead, but prevented the group from realizing there were also enemies in the chambers to the side. So the party charged into the next chamber to find the source of magic, learning it were indeed enemies but then they got flanked in the back by the skipped encounter. So they had to deal with 2 encounters at once.




And I remember something annoying I did.

I once participated in a PFS module, and one of the first rooms had a basilisk inside a cage. So the party rogue tried to sneak past the beast, but failed and got turned into stone for it. The DM told us the blood of a basilisk could cure him, so we decided to kill the beast. However it retreated back into its cage, safe from all melee weapons. However I was playing a sorcerer, and I had acid splash as one of my cantrips. So I closed my eyes and started tossing acid until the DM got tired and handed us the victory.

[Killer Angel]

I so wanted to use an alphorn, but just never had the right situation come up. Plus it's debatable whether one of those is a "hand-held instrument".

:smalltongue:

Now, I recall a story of Lobo. The Man was trying to enter a spaceship with a grenade launcher (or something similar); after the destruction of the check point, his comment was something ala "It's not a hand baggage. Ah! as if I could not carry it."

[The Grue]

I once participated in a PFS module, and one of the first rooms had a basilisk inside a cage. So the party rogue tried to sneak past the beast, but failed and got turned into stone for it. The DM told us the blood of a basilisk could cure him, so we decided to kill the beast. However it retreated back into its cage, safe from all melee weapons. However I was playing a sorcerer, and I had acid splash as one of my cantrips. So I closed my eyes and started tossing acid until the DM got tired and handed us the victory.

In your defence, it seems to me the DM was being a bit of a ****.

[Spore]

And acid does not necessarily ignore hardness, either, as some believe.

Uhm....

Unless the acid is not oxidative it should deal damage to the handcuffs. And we're talking about a magical acid that deals damage nearly instantly. None of that weak hydrofluoric acid that melts glass and bones. Remember we're talking about acid splash that could kill a HD 1 human within several rounds aka 20-30 seconds.

[The Grue]

Uhm....

Unless the acid is not oxidative it should deal damage to the handcuffs. And we're talking about a magical acid that deals damage nearly instantly. None of that weak hydrofluoric acid that melts glass and bones. Remember we're talking about acid splash that could kill a HD 1 human within several rounds aka 20-30 seconds.

Unfortunately, Acid Splash still doesn't work that way.

Also, as a general rule, real life science usually doesn't apply to D&D and its derivatives. See also; Peasant railgun.

[Svata]

Unless the acid is not oxidative it should deal damage to the handcuffs. And we're talking about a magical acid that deals damage nearly instantly. None of that weak hydrofluoric acid that melts glass and bones. Remember we're talking about acid splash that could kill a HD 1 human within several rounds aka 20-30 seconds.

+1 dead catgirl. Think of the catgirls.

[Alex12]

And acid does not necessarily ignore hardness, either, as some believe.

To be fair, acid and sonic do ignore hardness in 3.5.

[Forrestfire]

So they changed it from a 3rd level spell to a cantrip? :smallconfused:

Where the hell is the logic in that? I could see knocking it down to a 2nd level or 1st level at a stretch, but it's too good for a cantrip.

Because the spell is useless as a 3rd-level spell, and weak as a 2nd or 1st. It just copies text quickly, it's basically fluff in magic form.

[The Grue]

To be fair, acid and sonic do ignore hardness in 3.5.

And to be equally fair, they do not in Pathfinder, which this thread discusses.

[Deophaun]

To be fair, acid and sonic do ignore hardness in 3.5.
Not really. While it's possible to read the hardness entry in the PHB that way, but it's not a very strong reading. And then the FAQ tells you in no uncertain terms RAI Acid and Sonic don't bypass hardness.

[Gildedragon]

And to be equally fair, they do not in Pathfinder, which this thread discusses.

Mmmm... -reads OP-
Nope. Just cantrips in general. Cantrips ain't exclusive to PF. They just made them infinitely usable.

[Hamste]

Mmmm... -reads OP-
Nope. Just cantrips in general. Cantrips ain't exclusive to PF. They just made them infinitely usable.

It's a pathfinder tagged thread so it is about pathfinder (but considering how close they are I don't see much problem with some crossover, though there might be)

[ryu]

Mmmm... -reads OP-
Nope. Just cantrips in general. Cantrips ain't exclusive to PF. They just made them infinitely usable.

And it's rather doubtful that breaking some handcuffs requires infinite attempts if hardness isn't a thing.

[The Grue]

Mmmm... -reads OP-
Nope. Just cantrips in general. Cantrips ain't exclusive to PF. They just made them infinitely usable.

Look again.

http://onebit.us/x/i/WiqJ9K9O2v.png

[Kudaku]

The thread encourages people to share personal anecdotes about how they used cantrips for fun & profit. It's not entirely unreasonable to assume house rules when reading tales from the table, and as far as house rules go "acid melts metal" is a fairly common one.

Either way, how about we get back on topic? :smallsmile:

[The Grue]

The thread encourages people to share personal anecdotes about how they used cantrips for fun & profit. It's not entirely unreasonable to assume house rules when reading tales from the table.

Either way, how about we get back on topic? :smallsmile:

I once used prestidigitation to defeat the Tarrasque. By the way, we were using a house rule that allows prestidigitation to duplicate the effects of wish

[ryu]

I once used prestidigitation to defeat the Tarrasque. By the way, we were using a house rule that allows prestidigitation to duplicate the effects of wish

Actually is there anything in its actual entry that specifically disallows splitting an atom? There is a reason we call that thing least wish around here.

[Hamste]

I once used prestidigitation to defeat the Tarrasque. By the way, we were using a house rule that allows prestidigitation to duplicate the effects of wish

...wait, it doesn't duplicate wish already? :O I had always thought they were the same thing!

[ryu]

...wait, it doesn't duplicate wish already? :O I had always thought they were the same thing!

A bit more constrained than minor wish. It tends to get called least wish.

[Alex12]

And to be equally fair, they do not in Pathfinder, which this thread discusses.

I was aware of that, simply commenting on how the similarities between the two mean that it's pretty easy for people familiar with 3.5 to miss a difference between the two, and just assume it's the same.

[The Grue]

Actually is there anything in its actual entry that specifically disallows splitting an atom? There is a reason we call that thing least wish around here.

I think that would depends on the physical structure of the universe in a given setting, like for example whether atoms are a thing. If they were...it would be a question of how much energy you can get out of the spell. The description says it can "slowly lift 1 pound of material", so that gives a starting point for how much force it can apply.

Though there is this line:


Any actual change to an object (beyond just moving, cleaning, or soiling it) persists only 1 hour.

Does that mean, if you could start a fission reaction with prestidigitation, that your fission products would reverse-decay back to your starting material after one hour? :smallcool:

[Kazudo]

You could soil it. With neutrons.

Or move it so fast that it crashes into other atoms.

[Doc_Maynot]

You could soil it. With neutrons.

Or move it so fast that it crashes into other atoms.

Or clean it of neutrons, or even soil it with antimatter.

[Deophaun]

I think that would depends on the physical structure of the universe in a given setting, like for example whether atoms are a thing.
Don't know about Pathfinder, but 3.5's DMG specifically says that the D&D universe has the same properties as our own unless specified otherwise. So yeah, atoms are a thing.

If they were...it would be a question of how much energy you can get out of the spell.
Not much. Atoms decay around you all the time, but you never notice. If prestidigitation could split an atom, it'd be the same thing; no one would notice. Live by physics, die by physics.

[TuggyNE]

To be fair, acid and sonic do ignore hardness in 3.5.

That's what I was referring to, actually, and they really don't.
Each object has hardness—a number that represents how well it resists damage. Whenever an object takes damage, subtract its hardness from the damage.
[…]
Acid and sonic attacks deal damage to most objects just as they do to creatures; roll damage and apply it normally after a successful hit. Electricity and fire attacks deal half damage to most objects; divide the damage dealt by 2 before applying the hardness. Cold attacks deal one-quarter damage to most objects; divide the damage dealt by 4 before applying the hardness.

The usual misreading of this is that, because acid and sonic don't say they apply hardness, obviously they don't. However, they don't need to: a lack of specific reiteration of the general rule does not indicate an exception to that general rule, even if the general rule is reiterated elsewhere in similar cases. And here, electricity, fire, and cold are not similar cases: it is strictly necessary to clarify when the halving or quartering happens relative to the reduction from hardness (because halving the damage before results in a different total than halving it after), so there is in fact no real reiteration of the general rule at all, in any of these cases.

Therefore, all objects with hardness apply it to all damage except where otherwise specifically noted, such as in certain psionic powers. Which, confusingly, are pretty generally using acid and sonic. Those, however, are special exceptions to the rule, and again do not indicate anything other than that acid and sonic from those powers bypass hardness.

We now return you to your scheduled infuriating uses of cantrips, already in progress.

Have we mentioned the potentially-irritating uses of dancing lights? Its signaling abilities could be rather annoying, as the resistance in OOTS found.

[malonkey1]

Have we mentioned the potentially-irritating uses of dancing lights? Its signaling abilities could be rather annoying, as the resistance in OOTS found.

This is true. I wonder if OOtS is ever going to switch to Pathfinder (like it did from 3.0 to 3.5 at/near the beginning)?

[Thealtruistorc]

Create Water in somebody's pants. It never fails to amuse.

Arcane Mark on your fallen foes is always a good time for Magi.

Ghost sound to impersonate Morgan Freeman. That one just speaks for itself.

[Fiery Diamond]

Given that said water is created in 2 gallon/level volumes every six seconds "in an area as small as will actually contain the liquid, or in an area three times as large (http://paizo.com/prd/spells/createWater.html)", that must be a very small cave.

Wait... how is this even possible?

The part before the comma makes sense. It prevents you from creating water in an area that is too small to contain it; this means you can't compress it and force the container you put it in to burst from the expanding water.

The part after the comma... doesn't. The precise wording says "possibly creating a downpour or filling many small receptacles" after that. So - we know that it doesn't have to be created in a container: first, "area" doesn't mean container; second, "possibly creating a downpour" indicates that the water isn't necessarily created in a static environ (in other words, you can create it in the air and it falls rather than needing to create it sitting against the down-most part of a container). How, then, are we creating it "in an area three times as large"? Nothing can occupy a space larger than it occupies, which is what that phrase would mean after ruling out a necessity to put it in a container.

Edit: The best explanation I can come up with is in reference to this note on the same site you linked: "Note: Conjuration spells can't create substances or objects within a creature. Water weighs about 8 pounds per gallon. One cubic foot of water contains roughly 8 gallons and weighs about 60 pounds." In other words, if we are creating 8 gallons of water, we can create it is a space that contains the same volume as a cubic foot at minimum and an area of 3 cubic feet of volume at maximum by spreading out the water and allowing air to be interspersed in the same area in addition to the water (lessening the crushing impact of the water by making a slightly longer-lasting downpour, for example.)

[Deophaun]

How, then, are we creating it "in an area three times as large"?
Obviously it's steam, so you can burn people with it.

[malonkey1]

Obviously it's steam, so you can burn people with it.

That's true. It never specifies what state or temperature the water has to be, only that is has to occupy a certain volume. You could technically make arbitrarily hot steam or arbitrarily cold ice with Create Water.

Oh! Poor man's grease slick! with that reading and interpretation of RAW, you could make a patch of ice.

[Svata]

This is true. I wonder if OOtS is ever going to switch to Pathfinder (like it did from 3.0 to 3.5 at/near the beginning)?

It has been stated that it won't update to 4e, so I assume no.

[Occasional Sage]

Jolt ( http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/rare-cantrips), in the hands of a sylph ( http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-sylph) with the Storm in the Blood alternate trait.

[Yanisa]

Jolt ( http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/rare-cantrips), in the hands of a sylph ( http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-sylph) with the Storm in the Blood alternate trait.

:smallconfused:

Congratulations, you just healed 40 HP at level 20. The DM must be infuriated by the huge amount of healing. Wait, it also took 20 rounds, that would infuriate the party too.

Seriously though, it is a clever use of the cantrip, albeit the healing is a bit lackluster.

[Killer Angel]

+1 dead catgirl. Think of the catgirls.

The Catgirl-Killers Society is pleased.

[nedz]

Obviously it's steam, so you can burn people with it.

No no no, you use Create Water to make Ice — for my G&T

[khachaturian]

has anyone used heightened arcane marks as a defense against dispelling?

[avr]

Purify food and drink removes spoilage and poisons. Alcohol is arguably one of these. Only seen this done once but the dwarf in the party found it infuriating indeed - it was in 3.something but the same effect should work in PF.

[Occasional Sage]

:smallconfused:

Congratulations, you just healed 40 HP at level 20. The DM must be infuriated by the huge amount of healing. Wait, it also took 20 rounds, that would infuriate the party too.

Seriously though, it is a clever use of the cantrip, albeit the healing is a bit lackluster.

Yeah, the infuriating came from the clever cheesiness, not the OP. Personally I find it hilarious: picture the party's reaction the first time!

[Spore]

Purify food and drink removes spoilage and poisons. Alcohol is arguably one of these. Only seen this done once but the dwarf in the party found it infuriating indeed - it was in 3.something but the same effect should work in PF.

I will remember your replay favorably, our party's - stereotypical - Dwarf not so much.

[Alex12]

Purify food and drink removes spoilage and poisons. Alcohol is arguably one of these. Only seen this done once but the dwarf in the party found it infuriating indeed - it was in 3.something but the same effect should work in PF.

I think if a dwarf casts that spell on an alcoholic drink, it removes everything but the alcohol.

[Axier]

I think if a dwarf casts that spell on an alcoholic drink, it removes everything but the alcohol.

Pure alcohol will absorb water from the air, so, in theory, you have created a desiccant, allowing dwarves to use drinking alcohol to dry out rooms for long-term storage. Just have to have a dwarf around, who can cast this, to open a beer, purify it, let it sit a minute, and drink it.

Absurdity aside; spark can become a complete annoyance, as small bits of towns ignite, devastation follows the party pyromaniac.

Because some men just want to watch the world burn, for a few standard actions.

[Erik Vale]

I think that would depends on the physical structure of the universe in a given setting, like for example whether atoms are a thing. If they were...it would be a question of how much energy you can get out of the spell. The description says it can "slowly lift 1 pound of material", so that gives a starting point for how much force it can apply.

Though there is this line:



Does that mean, if you could start a fission reaction with prestidigitation, that your fission products would reverse-decay back to your starting material after one hour? :smallcool:

1: In pathfinder atoms are a thing [there is a monster that breaks down creatures into it's component subatomics]... However how would you determine LOE/LOS to a atom?

2: Yes... Which would actually support energy conservation as you would introduce energy into the universe, and then take it from it later. :smallcool: *Murders a catgirl*

[nedz]

1: In pathfinder atoms are a thing [there is a monster that breaks down creatures into it's component subatomics]... However how would you determine LOE/LOS to a atom?

If you can see light reflecting off the target then you have LOS/LOE to at least one atom, well one of it's electron shells anyway *Murders a catgirl*

[ahenobarbi]

Actually is there anything in its actual entry that specifically disallows splitting an atom? There is a reason we call that thing least wish around here.

Does not matter. Splitting a few atoms will have virtually no effect (there are many, many atoms splitting close to you (and inside you) every second.

[Erik Vale]

What about line of effect? What about all the other 'invisible' atoms in the way?

Also, who's determining slowly for lift speed? Someone who moves at a 80ft/round walk and is permanantly hasted while having free actions based on race presently in a the fey plane while looking at the prime material? Or someone who lives forever and moves 5ft/round at a run with a dex of 1?

Can someone determine how much force is required to pull apart a hydrogen [or other] atom, I don't have the stuff on me to do it and I want to know how 'slow' one has to be pulling to cause spontaneous nuclear fission around someone...
Oh, and actually using Presdigitation is normally considered a free action... Hey, casters can be nuclear generators!

[Doc_Maynot]

Can someone determine how much force is required to pull apart a hydrogen [or other] atom, I don't have the stuff on me to do it and I want to know how 'slow' one has to be pulling to cause spontaneous nuclear fission around someone...

About 1.6 X (10^-9)N (http://books.google.com/books?id=grqxTeY1z4oC&pg=PA1041&lpg=PA1041&dq=how+much+force+is+required+to+pull+apart+a+hydr ogen+atom&source=bl&ots=hBTU4EoDW3&sig=IdDVXQYKoKy8QG1NpFLekqkXo5g&hl=en&sa=X&ei=lDF5U4vYJIScqAbYhYHIBg&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=how%20much%20force%20is%20required%20to%20pull%2 0apart%20a%20hydrogen%20atom&f=false) Considerably more for other atoms.

[Erik Vale]

1.6*10^-9?

To lift a 1lb object you need to be apply a minimum of 9.8N assuming earth like gravity so with Presdigitation you should be able to split atoms at will.... [Might need a cantrip for detect hydrogen to deal with targeting... Depending on exact strength of other atoms which I doubt will reach 10N given -9 you may just be able to split atoms]

I'm now imagining wizards having to constantly make saves vs presdigitation by people using it as a save or die in wizard duels... Or if they have resurrection contingencies, turning themselves/their surroundings into nuclear bombs should they be about to lose.

[Doc_Maynot]

1.6*10^-9?

To lift a 1lb object you need to be apply a minimum of 9.8N assuming earth like gravity so with Presdigitation you should be able to split atoms at will....

I'm now imagining wizards having to constantly make saves vs presdigitation by people using it as a save or die in wizard duels... Or if they have resurrection contingencies, turning themselves/their surroundings into nuclear bombs should they be about to lose.

I'm pretty sure there's no saving from a point blank Nuclear Blast.
At the same time, I'd persist Prestidigitation A LOT more than I already do.

[Lord Raziere]

The Catgirl-Killers Society is pleased.

The Catgirl Preservation Society is not amused.

don't start this stupidity again. :smallannoyed: some of us want the catgirls to live.

[Erik Vale]

... Level 5, Rogue 2/Hexblade 3, you just need to boost your saves high enough and you can survive.

Or be at half health with the tabbard that grants mettle and a ring of evasion, item of wish to make your next X saves auto-suceed/have ludicrous bonuses, initiate bombing.


Also, why persist? Unlimited castings and a Cantrip...
Of course, no one plays like this sanely.


And the save I mentioned wasn't against nuclear blast, the save was the other wizard using presdigitation to cause parts of the other wizards body to fuse damaging manner that didn't hurt the using wizard.

[Doc_Maynot]

Also, why persist? Unlimited castings and a Cantrip...
Of course, no one plays like this sanely.


And the save I mentioned wasn't against nuclear blast, the save was the other wizard using presdigitation to cause parts of the other wizards body to fuse damaging manner that didn't hurt the using wizard.

Ah, sorry. Still thinking D&D.

And, Oh.

[Deophaun]

I'm now imagining wizards having to constantly make saves vs presdigitation by people using it as a save or die in wizard duels... Or if they have resurrection contingencies, turning themselves/their surroundings into nuclear bombs should they be about to lose.
How are you doing that with 9 N of force? The problem of a nuclear bomb is not getting the atoms to split. The problem is getting the atoms in close enough proximity for one splitting to cause a chain reaction. This is why they all use implosion triggers.

[Erik Vale]

Not an expert however here's how I could see it work:
-With your free actions, cause a absurdly large numbers of atoms to bunch up together, traditional bomb. If you need to you combine nuclei until they explode... You probably wont make a big bomb so much as lots of 9 newton bombs + radiation.
-You know real life needing to bunch them together? You don't. With your free actions you will large groups of atoms to fission/fusion. You see that section of ground under you/that wall behind you? It just underwent fission/fusion because you will it. Have a nice day.

The problem comes more with targeting. 1 Atom really isn't visible, you need large numbers of them. Absurd numbers of them. So the question is how can you make your level 1 wizard whose abusing various loops for unlimited money and desires to suicide bomb somone in this manner targeting individual atoms.

[Deophaun]

-With your free actions, cause a absurdly large numbers of atoms to bunch up together, traditional bomb.
Not going to work at all. Implosion triggers are tricky because you need a lot of force applied from all directions simultaneously. By stretching it out even across two actions, let alone however many free ones you intend to take, your trigger fails.

-Not an expert
This is probably the best argument for RL physics being Rule 0ed out of the game: you need to know how RL physics works, as opposed to only having a vague idea of certain aspects of the task you're trying to perform.

[Ionbound]

I have a Prestidigitation story.

So, I'm playing an Elf wizard, and early in the campaign, we meet an Elf girl that my character sort of adopts. Later on, a party member gets kidnapped and replaced by a Doppelganger, and then near-successfully murders the girl. We easily track him down, defeat him, and during the interrogation, my character uses the Firefinger application of Prestidigitation to burn his eyes out for revenge.

For those who don't know, one of the official uses of Prestidigitation is "You cause a jet of flame up to 1/2 foot long to shoot forth from your finger. The flame is hot and ignites combustible materials." Nasty, right?

[malonkey1]

I have a Prestidigitation story.

So, I'm playing an Elf wizard, and early in the campaign, we meet an Elf girl that my character sort of adopts. Later on, a party member gets kidnapped and replaced by a Doppelganger, and then near-successfully murders the girl. We easily track him down, defeat him, and during the interrogation, my character uses the Firefinger application of Prestidigitation to burn his eyes out for revenge.

For those who don't know, one of the official uses of Prestidigitation is "You cause a jet of flame up to 1/2 foot long to shoot forth from your finger. The flame is hot and ignites combustible materials." Nasty, right?

Holy crap.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEKPF6KDkJ0

[TuggyNE]

has anyone used heightened arcane marks as a defense against dispelling?

Huh? Heighten doesn't affect dispelling at all.


The Catgirl Preservation Society is not amused.

don't start this stupidity again. :smallannoyed: some of us want the catgirls to live.

I think someone is taking the joke a little too seriously.


Not going to work at all. Implosion triggers are tricky because you need a lot of force applied from all directions simultaneously. By stretching it out even across two actions, let alone however many free ones you intend to take, your trigger fails.

Yeah, nuclear warheads are ridiculously sensitive to proper timing and explosion shape. If, for example, the chemical explosives on one side are set off by themselves, even though they'll set off those on the other side by sympathetic detonation, the microseconds before that happens are more than enough to completely prevent the reaction from going anywhere interesting. (Which does mean that you can disarm a nuke, albeit with some radioactive material spillage, just by slapping some C4 on the side and setting it off. Good times.) *gets put on watchlist*

[The Grue]

Huh? Heighten doesn't affect dispelling at all.

Indeed; Dispel Magic's DC is set by the caster level of the targeted spell, not the target spell's spell level.

However, you can if desired cast a spell at a caster level lower than your own - I've never seen it done, but it's permissible. Since a targeted dispel magic goes after the highest-CL spell affecting the target, the basic idea works; cast arcane mark at CL n, and the rest of your buffs at CL n-1.

[TuggyNE]

However, you can if desired cast a spell at a caster level lower than your own - I've never seen it done, but it's permissible. Since a targeted dispel magic goes after the highest-CL spell affecting the target, the basic idea works; cast arcane mark at CL n, and the rest of your buffs at CL n-1.

Ah, that makes sense. (It's kind of an annoying glitch enabled by PF's changes, but maybe that's just my inner grumpy old man coming out.)

[137beth]

This isn't all that infuriating, but one thing I've seen players use is
Sending: I, [name or alias of caster] am about to scry on you. [17 filler words]
The caster then casts scrying, and the target (knowing it is an ally) intentionally fails their save.
The caster then spams message until it works. It is 5%/level, so it should work at least once be
Bam, two-way verbal communication for 1 min/level, no word limit.

It only works if you are allowed to willingly fail a save against a spell without the (harmless) qualifier, and stops working if the person being scried on has Mind Blank, but by 15th level you should have other ways to communicate.

[Lord Raziere]

I think someone is taking the joke a little too seriously.


Well YES, how else will it stop being a thing, unless I take it too seriously for anyone to find it funny anymore? :smallconfused: I don't WANT people laughing at the death of innocent people, even hypothetical ones. :smallyuk:

[Togo]

I often use prestidigitation to remove Magical symbols and similar. Just make the surface dirty to the point that the symbol is no longer visible. If the DM doesn't allow that to work, then they've ruled that such effects don't have to be visible to work, and vast amounts of abuse becomes possible. Making the surface of a cupboard or wardrobe dirty is also very useful for hiding from people. No one is likely to thoroughly search a room that 'obviously hasn't been used in years.

[Lord Raziere]

I often use prestidigitation to remove Magical symbols and similar. Just make the surface dirty to the point that the symbol is no longer visible. If the DM doesn't allow that to work, then they've ruled that such effects don't have to be visible to work, and vast amounts of abuse becomes possible.

"the symbol just shines through the dirt, no matter how many layers you put on top of it"

[Damagicbanana]

Not game breaking or anything like that I just enjoy casting 'create water' on our Catfolk ranger even more so while wild shaped into a Fire elemental just to be funny.

:smallwink:

[Togo]

"the symbol just shines through the dirt, no matter how many layers you put on top of it"

Is this part of the symbol spell? If not, I'd want a reason why the spell can ignore line of effect.

Next you'll be telling me that you can't stop spell turrets by dropping a blanket over them. :smalleek:

[Gildedragon]

Is this part of the symbol spell? If not, I'd want a reason why the spell can ignore line of effect.

Next you'll be telling me that you can't stop spell turrets by dropping a blanket over them. :smalleek:

nope, you stop them by making them fall through a gate and land on their side.
that or by tipping them over with a cube of matter you've teleported onto them.

[khachaturian]

my interpretation of the dc for dispel magic

"You make one dispel check (1d20 + your caster level) and compare that to the spell with highest caster level (DC = 11 + the spell's caster level"

is that it is based on the spell itself, and not the caster... like dc 16 for a wizard's fly or 12 for a wizard's mage armor even if the person casting the spell were level 10

greater dispel magic seems to be more explicit, at least with the descending order of priority with this

"Targeted Dispel: This functions as a targeted dispel magic, but it can dispel one spell for every four caster levels you possess, starting with the highest level spells and proceeding to lower level spells."

so if you are a level 9 wizard, wouldn't a boatload of arcane marks heightened to level 5 give you a buffer of spells that would be harmlessly dispelled? or at least make it a lot more difficult for someone to take away your fly, mirror image, mage armor, death ward, freedom of movement, etc.

[The Grue]

my interpretation of the dc for dispel magic

"You make one dispel check (1d20 + your caster level) and compare that to the spell with highest caster level (DC = 11 + the spell's caster level"

is that it is based on the spell itself, and not the caster... like dc 16 for a wizard's fly or 12 for a wizard's mage armor even if the person casting the spell were level 10

That is a perfectly valid houserule, but it is not what is written. The term "caster level" is quite specific as to what it means; the caster level of a spell is the caster level of the caster when the spell was cast it.

[Graypairofsocks]

Prestidigitation to make flowers for a +2 circumstance bonus on diplomacy. For a bard. This wound up getting him married to a princess. He was level 2.

Could you elaborate on the story?

It sounds interesting.

[The Grue]

Could you elaborate on the story?

It sounds interesting.

At a guess, I would say the bard used the +2 circumstance bonus to Diplomacy to convince the princess to marry him.

[malonkey1]

At a guess, I would say the bard used the +2 circumstance bonus to Diplomacy to convince the princess to marry him.

No, he used his diplomacy bonus to convince everybody in the village to help him perform a flash mob proposal.

[Arael666]

What's the deal with catgirls? Is that an inside joke that I'm not aware of?

[grarrrg]

What's the deal with catgirls? Is that an inside joke that I'm not aware of?

Catgirls are a made-up fantasy thing.
D&D / Pathfinder are made-up fantasy worlds, that are _loosely_ based on real-world stuff.
The joke is that when you try to apply REAL Physics to D&D you kill a Catgirl because you're trying to apply logic to something that doesn't have any....or something.

[Lord Raziere]

Is this part of the symbol spell? If not, I'd want a reason why the spell can ignore line of effect.

Next you'll be telling me that you can't stop spell turrets by dropping a blanket over them. :smalleek:

Yes you cannot stop spell turrets by dropping blankets over them.

it only ignore UNREASONABLE line of effect. like trying to cover it up with thin layers that should not doing anything. you want to keep yourself out of line of effect, then put a thick stone wall between you and them.

that and catgirls do have logic: the logic is that they are cute and you should enjoy their company instead of killing them.

[Arbane]

What's the deal with catgirls? Is that an inside joke that I'm not aware of?

http://static.fjcdn.com/pictures/God_ec3a2d_797486.gif