Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground LVII [Archive] - Page 2

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AvatarVecna

2014-05-31, 08:47 PM

two people decided to cook foe hunters?

wow. what are the odds?

Considering the SI's potential focus on aberrations, not too unlikely.

KrimsonNekros

2014-05-31, 09:00 PM

Considering the SI's potential focus on aberrations, not too unlikely.

Likewise I'm surprised there were only two Cavestalkers.

Ikeren

2014-05-31, 09:38 PM

Lesser Tiefling, Drow Fighter 2/Arcane Hunter (Ranger) 2/Scout 3/Cavestalker 3/Darkrunner 10
Deep Imaskari Factotum 1/Fighter 2/Swordsage 2/Darkrunner 7/Telflammar Shadowlord 4/Jaunter 4
kobold Factotum 3/Ranger 2/Cavestalker 3/Prime Underdark Guide 2/Darkrunner 10
Dark Changeling Ranger 4/ Darkrunner 1/Stonedeath Assassin 2/Darkrunner 8/Stonedeath Assassin 5/Darkrunner 10
Primordial Eneko Factotum 8/Savant 1/darkrunner 10
Lesser Drow Paladin 12/Darkrunner 8
Underfolk, Factotum 3/ Human Paragon 3/ Darkrunner 10/ Exemplar 4
Whisper Gnome Lurk 2 / Warlock 2 / Ranger 2 / Foe Hunter 4 / Darkrunner 10
Dwarf Ranger 4/Darkrunner10/Warblade 1/Deepstone Sentinel 5
Gold Dwarf, Rogue 4/ Darkrunner 10/ Foe Hunter 6
spirit hellbred (fcii p77) spirit shaman (cd p14) 6/darkrunner (lom p186) 10/sentinel of bharrai (boed p69) 4
Underfolk Savage Bard3/Ranger3/Darkrunner10/Horizon Walker4
Lolth Touched Drow Scout3/Ranger4/Darkrunner10
Dragonborn Human Scout 4/ Darkrunner 10/ Fighter 6
Fire Blooded Dwarf Rogue 1/Cloistered Cleric 1/Swashbuckler 3/Trapsmith 5/Darkrunner10/

Races and templates

Underfok: 2
Lesser Tiefling: 1
Deep Imaskari: 1
Kobold: 1
Dark: 1
Changeling: 1
Primordial: 1
Eneko: 1
Drow: 1
Lesser Drow: 1
Whisper Gnome: 1
Spirit Hellbred: 1
Lolth Touched: 1
Dragonborn: 1
Human 1:
Dwarf: 1
Gold Dwarf: 1
Fire Blooded Dwarf: 1

Requiring Racial Darkvision turned out a good way to produce a variety of races.

Base classes:
Ranger: 7 - 24%
Factotum: 4 - 14%
Scout: 3 - 10%
Fighter: 2
Rogue: 2
Swordsage: 1
Savant: 1
Paladin: 1
Human Paragon: 1
Lurk: 1
Warlock: 1
Warblade: 1
Spirit Shaman: 1
Bard: 1
Cleric: 1
Swashbuckler 1

Total: 29. Average: 1.9333.

Prestige Classes:
Darkrunner: 15 (100%)
Cavestalker: 2 (7%)
Foe Hunter: 2 (7%)
Telflammar Shadowlord: 1
Jaunter: 1
Prime Underdark Guide: 1
Stonedeath Assassin: 1
Exemplar: 1
Deepstone Sentinel: 1
Sentinel of Bharrai: 1
Horizon Walker: 1
Trapsmith: 1

Total: 28. Average: 1.8666.

Darkcouch

2014-05-31, 09:53 PM

I'm bummed I didn't have time to write up my Dark Laika Savant 4 / Darkrunner 10 / Darkhunter 5. I wasn't sure about the interactions between Hide in Plain Sight/Stone's Hue(Darkhunter4) and Savant's Skill assistance, but he would have been a pretty good guide through dangerous territory.

Muggins

2014-05-31, 10:36 PM

AvatarVecna

2014-05-31, 10:56 PM

lunar2

2014-05-31, 11:22 PM

i had wanted to make a duskblade, using apprentice to get survival as a class skill, and picking up obtain familiar + improved familiar instead of alertness. the only problem is the only way i found to make difficult terrain i could stand in was earth devotion, and i didn't want to spend a level on cleric for a turning pool.

Xaroth

2014-06-01, 12:18 AM

KrimsonNekros

2014-06-01, 12:50 AM

Hey, I'm new to the Iron Chef competitions. I know this one is basically over, but I'm curious: What exactly IS this, and what are the origins of it? Reading the FAQ didn't help me out any with this question.

As far as what it is, it's a friendly competition to see who can come up with the best non epic build utilizing the special ingredient. Judges are tasked with grading the builds for their power, flavor, and originality.

Kazudo

2014-06-01, 09:55 AM

The two builds I had in mind were an Anthropomorphic Giant Constrictor Snake Darkrunner/Leviathan Hunter who specialized in fighting Delvers.

The second one I couldn't navigate RAW on. It was a were-giant shark who lived in underwater caves and attacked Mind-Flayers while they were enjoying time at the beach.

It attacked them THROUGH THE SAND. No one expects the Tunnel Shark.

Muggins

2014-06-01, 11:11 AM

The first rule of playing a Truenamer is do not play a Truenamer.

The second rule of playing a Truenamer is do not play a Truenamer.

The two builds I had in mind were an Anthropomorphic Giant Constrictor Snake Darkrunner/Leviathan Hunter who specialized in fighting Delvers.

The second one I couldn't navigate RAW on. It was a were-giant shark who lived in underwater caves and attacked Mind-Flayers while they were enjoying time at the beach.

It attacked them THROUGH THE SAND. No one expects the Tunnel Shark.
To indulge myself by going into more detail: the Truenamer was an Anthropomorphic Monkey Truenamer 8/Monk 2/Darkrunner 10, but the build fell through because a) Monks don't get Survival as a class skill (whyyy?) and b) Transform the Landscape, the utterance I actually wanted (it creates/removes difficult terrain), couldn't be obtained until Truenamer 12. For power I gave him the Eilservs School feat, and for flavour I named him the Disciple of Sun Wukong.

Now I know that it shall never be. Oh well.

Piggy Knowles

2014-06-01, 11:37 AM

I only really glanced at the class, so I didn't have a firm build idea in mind. That said, the first thing that occurred to me was to make a ranged Soulbow/Shiba Protector build that sniped at enemies by using seeking mind arrows from afar, and using the build's insane darkvision to stay hidden by remaining in the darkness well beyond the range of most sensory methods (which tend to cap out at 100' or 120').

Didn't have a particular build stub in mind, but that was my first thought. Of course, it's rare when building that my first draft much resembles the final version at all, so who knows what I would have ended up with...

Muggins

2014-06-01, 11:42 AM

WhamBamSam

2014-06-01, 01:25 PM

Trapsmith, huh? I'll just pat myself on the back and say that I left an impression last round, then.

I scrapped so many builds this round. The last one even used Truenamer, but then I realised I couldn't get a second Lexicon of the Perfected Map without taking 12 levels. I also couldn't manage to get Survival as a gorram class skill. :smallmad:

I think I might judge, should I find the time to do so. I'll do better this time!We've seen Trapsmiths before. I won with one just a few rounds ago. But by all means, take all the credit you want.

I too was foiled by Monks not getting survival, among other things. The idea was a Synad Invisible Fist Monk 2/Martial Wizard 1/Warblade 7/Darkrunner 10 (with Warblade positioned so as to be the favored class and the last few levels delayed until the end for higher level maneuvers, natch). The familiar was going to cover Alertness for me, Kung Fu Genius/Warblade/Cavefighting would give me an Int focus, Sun School for the Tunnelports, Scent from Warblade improving tracking, and the bonuses to Jump boosting Tiger Claw maneuvers. I considered going Ranger 1/Monk 1/Martial Wizard 1/Warblade 7/Darkrunner 10 when I realized I didn't have survival as a class skill, but ran into the bigger problem of not being able to use Cavefighting mid jump by RAW, because it requires you to be standing in difficult terrain. :smallsigh:

The idea with Synad was that his oracle mind would be actively opposed to everything he ever did in his quest for revenge against the Illithids (or was just actively suicidal, though that felt like it was in poor taste), believing it would only lead to more strife, so that every skill check he ever made was against himself and got a bonus from Aberration Lore. Synads not having an environment of underground for Aberration Specialist was kind of a shame though.

I also fiddled with the idea of a Stalking Wyrm Dragonwrought Kobold (probably Factotum, maybe with some other Int-focused classes sprinkled in as well), but didn't come up with anything all that interesting. Also, I wasn't sure whether Factotum qualified for Obtain Familiar. I feel like I've heard something somewhere about SLAs being arcane by default, which would mean that they have an arcane caster level, but I didn't know where to look for the relevant quote. If someone could make a compelling case one way or the other, that'd make my judging job a lot easier for at least one of the builds.

The Viscount

2014-06-01, 02:09 PM

well the srd does have this little tidbit.

Some spell-like abilities duplicate spells that work differently when cast by characters of different classes. A monster’s spell-like abilities are presumed to be the sorcerer/wizard versions. If the spell in question is not a sorcerer/wizard spell, then default to cleric, druid, bard, paladin, and ranger, in that order.

Tim Proctor

2014-06-01, 09:01 PM

OMG PONIES

2014-06-01, 09:18 PM

I scrapped so many builds this round. The last one even used Truenamer, but then I realised I couldn't get a second Lexicon of the Perfected Map without taking 12 levels.

The first rule of playing a Truenamer is do not play a Truenamer.

The second rule of playing a Truenamer is do not play a Truenamer.

Pish posh. I took gold with a Truenamer in Round XXIII (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11664034&postcount=132). Of course, this is Iron Chef, where up is down and wrong is right.

The Viscount

2014-06-01, 11:46 PM

Tru dat. Any competition where I can nab HM using Forsaker is a very backwards one indeed.

Deadline

2014-06-02, 12:20 AM

Tru dat. Any competition where I can nab HM using Forsaker is a very backwards one indeed.

It was glorious.

Vaz

2014-06-02, 07:48 AM

I'm surprised the races and prestige classes were as diverse as they were.

My first build was a Gold Dwarf Cloistered Cleric grabbing the substitution level for Knowledge (Dungeon) and the Travel domain for Survival. But I figured everyone in the world saw it and no one was going to go with Ranger, Factotum, or Scout and all these alternative routes. Guess I was wrong on all counts.

The problem with Cloistered Cleric is that it's such a powerful base class, doing anything more than dipping it and leading into a half progression casting class for build synergy begs the question of why lose the casting levels. A Cloistered Cleric 5/Cleric PrC5/Darkrunner 10 would leave me saying that you only took the SI because the competition said you had to, there is no logical reason as to why you'd lose CL's to get a couple of abilities which you can easily replicate.

One of my ideas was to use a Human with the Insectile Template, and go with a multiple chain fighting build and using Size boosters to increase my melee range to let me climb on the walls, and stand in difficult terrain on the walls to get the bonuses from high intelligence, and use Swordsage dip to get access to the teleports and sneak attacking, with Drider's being the chosen Aberration Specialist, the fluff being that I was a human who had undergone a ritual to become a Drider, but the process had failed, turning me into a mutant creature with 6 arms. I would then dedicate my life to hunting down the priestess/scientist who had transformed me, while killing those who had been transformed, and sent to hunt me down.

Darrin

2014-06-02, 10:05 AM

Hey, I'm new to the Iron Chef competitions. I know this one is basically over, but I'm curious: What exactly IS this, and what are the origins of it? Reading the FAQ didn't help me out any with this question.

It's an informal and semi-serious competition to take a prestige class that is designed badly or has several class features that are nearly useless, and then make a 20-level build out of it that does something interesting.

Every few weeks, a chairman selects a "Special Ingredient". The contestants voluntarily submit a build to the chairman before the posting deadline. After that, the chairman posts all entries anonymously. The judges volunteer to judge the entries in several categories on a 1 to 5 point scale. Once the entries have been posted, there's some discussion about what rules may have been bent and/or broken, and whether or not the competitors will feel any shame over breaking them once the authors are revealed at the end of the competition.

You do not have to ask permission to submit a build. You do not have to ask permission to judge (although you'll want to familiarize yourself with the judging rules and observe at least a round or two to get an idea of how it works).

As far as the history... I think it started on the Brilliant Gameologists forums many moons ago, where the Theoretical Optimization wonks got bored of coming up with new ways to ascend to Pun-Pun-hood, and someone decided, what would happen if we optimized something that was really terrible that no experienced player would ever willingly use? After the competition sputtered out over there, Heliomance started a new competition on these forums in 2010.

The Iron Chef theme is borrowed from the Japanese "cooking competition" television show (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Chef) popularized via the Food Network, with one minor difference: the main ingredient is full of garbage that no one wants to "eat". Can you make a tasty five-star meal out of it?

Sometimes you wind up with builds that are just barely competent but could hold their own in a non-optimized party. Sometimes a competitor finds a new way to break the planet in half with an oddball combo that nobody thought of before. Sometimes the build is still terrible but you tickle a few funny bones.

Ikeren

2014-06-02, 09:24 PM

Also, I loosely compiled builds melee schticks.

Improved cave fighting in all builds. Mentioning if people have easy ways to trigger it

Build 1 uses Flyby Attack with Manyshot/rapid shot with 16 BAB and 2d6 skrimish.
Build 2 uses Shadow Pounce with possibly Swordsage maneuvers? to pump out 3? full attacks with 2d6 sneak attack and 14 BAB.
Build 3 uses Rapid shot with 15 BAB, and no precise shot.
Build 4 uses Shadow Blade + Two Weapon Fighting + 4d6 sneak attack + Earth Devotion with 14 BAB.
Build 5 uses Earth Devotion + 13 BAB + alter self + Factotum action economy stuff/cunning insight, but with only 6 inspiration points.
Build 6 uses Shadow Blade + 18 BAB + Battle Blessing on a small Paladin spell list.
Build 7 uses 14 BAB with knowledge devotion, and cunning insight with only 3 inspiration points.
Build 8 uses Rapid Reload + Rapid Shot + Crossbow sniper (1/2 dex) + Sneak Attack/Rancor 3d6 and knowledge devotion with 14 BAB
Build 9 uses Power Attack Optimization + Stone Dragon Manoeuvres with 15 BAB.
Build 10 uses Knowledge Devotion + Rancor 3d6 and 14 BAB
Build 11 uses 5th level casting and metamagic/spell modifying feats and 15 BAB
Build 12 uses Two weapon fighting with Improved Favoured enemy aberrations, some Horizon Walker terrain masteries and 16 BAB.
Build 13 uses Lolth touched drow scout-ranger with improved two weapon fighting + 2d6 skrimish + 4 favoured enemy and 13 BAB.
Build 14 uses 2d6 skrimish with monkey grip, power attack, cleave, and BAB 16
Build 15 uses Traps + Swashbuckler int to damage + knowledge and earth devotion + 1d6 sneak attack + staggering strike + greater two weapon fighting with 13 BAB and some combat spells.

It's a loose and frivilous summary, but one of my major curiosities here was if anyone could come up with a good combat shtick for the darkrunner.

dantiesilva

2014-06-02, 09:54 PM

Looking at build 13 I see Favored enemy at +7 due to feats, may have missed something but thats what it looks like

AvatarVecna

2014-06-02, 10:13 PM

How is a significant multiclass penalty generally handled?

Amphetryon

2014-06-02, 10:20 PM

How is a significant multiclass penalty generally handled?

Some judges don't care about multiclass penalties, because the games they're used to don't enforce them. Others choose to give a penalty.

Ikeren

2014-06-02, 11:05 PM

Also, the DMG experience rules, as written, catch up people who end up lower level than the rest of the party, resulting in "Experience is a river" optimization.

AvatarVecna

2014-06-03, 02:05 AM

Thanks for the insight. You both make very good points, which have helped me decide how to handle this issue. Thank you.

OMG PONIES

2014-06-03, 05:20 AM

It's an informal and semi-serious competition to take a prestige class that is designed badly or has several class features that are nearly useless, and then make a 20-level build out of it that does something interesting...

I hereby nominate Darrin's helpful and informative summary for inclusion in either the OP or the Q&A post at the beginning of the thread. :smallbiggrin:

Muggins

2014-06-03, 05:27 AM

I've been chipping away at these submissions for a couple of hours now. I am not amused. :roy:

Sian

2014-06-03, 05:37 AM

Oh? How come? annoyed at lack of good builds, disargeeing with how some certain things are tried to be ruled or?

Muggins

2014-06-03, 05:45 AM

For the sake of not influencing any of the other judges, I'll just say that it's a bad sign when I run out of points to deduct from a build.

AvatarVecna

2014-06-03, 06:04 AM

For the sake of not influencing any of the other judges, I'll just say that it's a bad sign when I run out of points to deduct from a build.

You're not alone. I've got some serious issues with some builds, and that's all I'll say for now.

OMG PONIES

2014-06-03, 06:13 AM

For ease of reference (and because I might be tempted to hop on as a judge):

Ryld (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17555572&postcount=228): Lesser Tiefling Fighter 2/Ranger 2/Scout 3/Cavestalker 3/Darkrunner 10
Richard B Riddick (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17555575&postcount=229): Deep Imaskari Factotum 1/Fighter 2/Swordsage 2/Telflammar Shadowlord 4/Darkrunner 7/Jaunter 4
Skitters (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17555584&postcount=230): Kobold Factotum 3/Ranger 2/Cavestalker 3/Prime Underdark Guide 2/Darkrunner 10
Ariadne (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17555592&postcount=231): Dark Changeling Ranger 4/Stonedeath Assassin 5/Darkrunner 10
Orion Garranan (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17555598&postcount=232): Primordial Eneko Factotum 8/Savant 1/Darkrunner 10
Ihlmrhys Do'ar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17555611&postcount=233): Lesser Drow Paladin 12/Darkrunner 8
Adlib (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17555619&postcount=234): Underfolk Factotum 3/Human Paragon 3/Darkrunner 10/Exemplar 4
Graima Venari (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17555628&postcount=235): Whisper Gnome Lurk 2/Warlock 2/Ranger 2/Foe Hunter 4/Darkrunner 10
Roy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17555638&postcount=236): Dwarf Ranger 4/Darkrunner 10/Warblade 1/Deepstone Sentinel 5
Esmar Tuek (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17555654&postcount=237): Gold Dwarf Rogue 4/Darkrunner 10/Foe Hunter 6
Creb Covenant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17555663&postcount=238): Hellbred Spirit Shaman 6/Darkrunner 10/Sentinel of Bharrai 4
Delehdas (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17555673&postcount=239): Underfolk Bard 3/Ranger 3/Darkrunner 10/Horizon Walker 4
Amaljss Myund (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17555697&postcount=240): Lolth-Touched Drow Scout 3/Ranger 4/Darkrunner 10
Rizzo (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17555714&postcount=242): Dragonborn Human Scout 4/Darkrunner 10/Warrior 6
Steven (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17555721&postcount=243): Fireblooded Dwarf Rogue 1/Cloistered Cleric 1/Swashbuckler 3/Trapsmith 5/Darkrunner 10

Vaz

2014-06-03, 06:30 AM

I've been chipping away at these submissions for a couple of hours now. I am not amused. :roy:

Sorry to be such a burden on your life.

Muggins

2014-06-03, 06:33 AM

Sorry to be such a burden on your life.
Hardly. I'm still doing this, aren't I?

Amphetryon

2014-06-03, 06:56 AM

This round shall be better than last. I don't foresee getting 18th place again with Darkrunner.

AvatarVecna

2014-06-03, 07:00 AM

This round shall be better than last. I don't foresee getting 18th place again with Darkrunner.

That's a fairly good assumption to make, considering there's only 15 builds.

Sian

2014-06-03, 07:06 AM

That's a fairly good assumption to make, considering there's only 15 builds.

That doesn't stop some persons from pulling it off in other circumstances :smalltongue:

AvatarVecna

2014-06-03, 07:53 AM

That doesn't stop some persons from pulling it off in other circumstances :smalltongue:

Just when you think you've hit rock bottom, life throws you a shovel and a pickaxe.

Amphetryon

2014-06-03, 08:04 AM

That's a fairly good assumption to make, considering there's only 15 builds.

Yes. That would be the joke. :smallsigh:

Tim Proctor

2014-06-03, 08:34 AM

For ease of reference (and because I might be tempted to hop on as a judge)
Please do, it would be nice to have the esteemed 'man who built everything' as a judge. I'm trying to figure out who gets to be Alton Brown, I think Ampheytron.

Rama

2014-06-03, 09:02 AM

How is a significant multiclass penalty generally handled?

I typically hit elegance with an up-to-half-point deduction for it.

And going by the other judges comments thus far, I must be Mr. Happy Go Lucky this round; about 40% done, haven't hammered any of the entries too badly yet.

Deadline

2014-06-03, 09:34 AM

How is a significant multiclass penalty generally handled?

Chefs who ignore Multiclass penalties or use level buyoff are assuming that they get more XP than everyone else in the competition, so I dock them for it (see my criteria above). I get that some folks come from groups that ignore the multiclass penalties, but part of my elegance criteria is how easily portable the character would be from group to group. If you rely on house rules, you make it more likely that a DM would veto the character, so you take a hit from my criteria. If you rack up a 100% multiclass penalty (somehow), then you'd take a higher hit.

Vaz

2014-06-03, 09:37 AM

Rama

2014-06-03, 10:01 AM

Not sure if this is out of line as a current competitor, but as a judge;

I never "penalize", but someone who manages to avoid multiclass penalties without excessively jumping around classes will recieve a small bonus to elegance.

Six of one, half dozen of the other I think; really depends on your scoring mechanic. For example, since I'm starting from the minimum and adding points in each category effectively mine is the same way (although I still use the deduction/penalize terminology for it).

Tim Proctor

2014-06-03, 11:03 AM

AvatarVecna

2014-06-03, 03:18 PM

The whole multiclass penalty vs. increased experience

The earliest you can get an multiclass penalty is 4 (3/1), the experience increase per monster level 4 is 300 (assuming standard party of 4) after 10 fights the group levels, with the exception of the multiclass character who is 600 experience behind. Now the group will be fighting CR 5 creatures and the multiclass character will be getting an extra 80 experience each fight and after 2 fights he'll end up at level 5, which puts him at 3/2 and no longer multiclassing and no longer at a penalty but 460 experience behind. When the group levels again (after 8 more fights earning 425 per level) the multiclass character will not because they will be behind. No they will be gaining 125 extra per fight, but they will level after 1 fight and will only be 335 experience behind. The multiclass penalty only effects a few fights with the largest being 2 fights during the initial level and and a single fight for a few more levels until they are caught up.

If there is a late game multiclass penalty things can change. Say a level 15 multiclass penalty, Ranger 4/Darkrunner 10/Fighter 1. For level 15 they will lose 225 experience per fight and 13 fights the party will level and They will be 2,925 behind. He'll be gaining 1687.5 instead of 1250 and will catch up (to level 16) after 2 fights, reducing his penalty to 2,050. He's still at a 20% penalty and that penalty will go on for 10 more fights til the party levels and then his penalty will be 4,550 behind. If they was able to remove the penalty then they would catch up by 20 and other than a few fights here and there the penalty wouldn't matter.

It continues on, and I don't have the time to go through and set it all out, but unless a character can recover from the penalty the bonuses never make up for the difference. If there is always a 20% penalty then the character will just end up behind in the late levels and the bonus for under-leveled wont catch up. The ones that take a 40% penalty throughout are just well, they're not doing so well.

When it was first mentioned that the penalty was made up for by extra xp, I ran the math meticulously. It turned out that a character with a 20% xp is about a level behind everyone else in their party, no matter when they received the penalty. Losing the penalty makes it possible to catch up, but the worse the penalty, the longer it would take.

I've decided to mix together a couple different ideas, both of which have been mentioned since I made my decision: anyone who saw my judging rubric knew that I gave a small Elegance bonus; also, I've decided to give a small Elegance penalty if the xp penalty is significant or constant enough to warrant one.

This is because, in order for a DM to accommodate a lower-level PC, they either needs to make the fights easier so the player can feel like they're contributing, or they need to leave the monster CRs where they are to avoid making the other players too bored with playing an easy game.

The only character who will receive a huge Power penalty for something like this is if they manage to get a 100% xp penalty, which would prevent them from leveling up.

Amphetryon

2014-06-03, 05:05 PM

When it was first mentioned that the penalty was made up for by extra xp, I ran the math meticulously. It turned out that a character with a 20% xp is about a level behind everyone else in their party, no matter when they received the penalty. Losing the penalty makes it possible to catch up, but the worse the penalty, the longer it would take.

I've decided to mix together a couple different ideas, both of which have been mentioned since I made my decision: anyone who saw my judging rubric knew that I gave a small Elegance bonus; also, I've decided to give a small Elegance penalty if the xp penalty is significant or constant enough to warrant one.

This is because, in order for a DM to accommodate a lower-level PC, they either needs to make the fights easier so the player can feel like they're contributing, or they need to leave the monster CRs where they are to avoid making the other players too bored with playing an easy game.

The only character who will receive a huge Power penalty for something like this is if they manage to get a 100% xp penalty, which would prevent them from leveling up.

Two questions, if I may:

1. Would a Character built around crafting - without the Artificer's Craft Reserve or similar method of negating the XP costs that 3.5 enforces for crafting Magic Items - receive a similar penalty in your scoring rubric, because said Character would be down a level for at least some of the encounters?

2. As I read your quote above, you are both giving bonus points to those who avoid multiclass penalties, and deducting points from any presented build that incurs them; in neither case is a 'baseline' available along the 'multiclass Character' axis. Is this intended to be, functionally, a double penalty?

AvatarVecna

2014-06-03, 05:42 PM

Two questions, if I may:

1. Would a Character built around crafting - without the Artificer's Craft Reserve or similar method of negating the XP costs that 3.5 enforces for crafting Magic Items - receive a similar penalty in your scoring rubric, because said Character would be down a level for at least some of the encounters?

2. As I read your quote above, you are both giving bonus points to those who avoid multiclass penalties, and deducting points from any presented build that incurs them; in neither case is a 'baseline' available along the 'multiclass Character' axis. Is this intended to be, functionally, a double penalty?

1. It would most likely depend on how much you'd focused on crafting. There's a big difference between a character who spends 10000 xp crafting and 100000 xp crafting.

2. Under my criteria, I give a bonus for completely avoiding multiclass penalties, while I give a penalty for having significant or continuous penalties. Tim Procter gave an example of a character that has a penalty at 4th level, but loses it at 5th level; that's the kind of thing that gets neither a bonus nor a penalty, because while they're behind on xp, the difference makes less of a difference the higher in level the character/party gets. But if that character never lost the xp penalty and it followed them for the rest of their career, that would warrant a penalty; I calculated it for a little while, and discovered that, in a situation like that, roughly have of the encounters they take part in are at their character level, but the other half are at their character level+1. This makes their contributions worth less to the fight, and makes them spend more resources.
In Tim Procter's example, the difference shrinks in magnitude as you level up, but here, the magnitude remains at this rather inconvenient level, and makes the game either a pain for the DM or for the other players, which I believe warrants an Elegance penalty.

Kazudo

2014-06-03, 07:11 PM

Well, my 2cp as a judge (which I expect only to pertain to my judging) is that I don't use multiclass penalties at my table, so I won't inflict them.

I won't look seriously enough at a build to check on its XP usage beyond something major like, for example, LA Buyoff. I think I stated (somewhere...) that I'm alright with a build that makes mention of LA Buyoff but does not depend on it. The same, I would say, would go for crafting. A build that is designed entirely around crafting (which I'm sure would show up for some reason or other here, though I can't for the life of me figure out why or when it would) would probably receive a slight penalty depending on the sheer amount of XP it's looking at losing. Again, though, a build that does so thematically and is well built otherwise may only see a small penalty if any. And it would be important for such a build to also carry with it an "Adaptations" section where it discusses what to do with very stingy and generous DMs (hopefully not at the same time) in case it would become a problem.

For example, "If your DM is very generous or doesn't normally track XP used for crafting, then see if you can get away with [examples]. If, however, your DM is very stingy, you may want to scale back the usage of your XP to [examples].

Except if done tastefully, a build defined by crafting and XP-burn would fall under the same mindset as a build defined by item use. Depending on ANYTHING other than the rules as most would see it may or may not be a very stable design...

Only after I typed that did I recall that it's not Build Stability here. I have been in the junkyard a bit long...

Amphetryon

2014-06-04, 11:29 AM

Kazudo

2014-06-04, 12:01 PM

That would probably depend on the build and circumstances. There should be allowable leeway in the event of an SI that would lend itself quite easily to being item or crafting specific. For example, Leviathan Hunter (not that a 5 level PrC would show up, but it was the first one I could think of and I'm extremely tired. Colicky newborn at home, yaknow) and its Trophy are a very important part of the build. Penalizing a build for being dependent on a trophy when the trophy is a class feature which itself should be optimized in the course of the competition. That's kind of what it's about.

But really all I was saying is that I'm not going to take a hard-and-fast stance pre-emptively against individuals who have a build built without factoring in multiclass penalties. Item creation feats which burn XP and using LA buyoff may or may not incur a penalty depending on how tastefully it's done. I still don't like a build that's completely useless without its equipment, but a build that makes items would be a better option (as long as the build then does not lean too heavily on said items in order to be a relevant build, again unless the Ingredient requires such consideration).

Korahir

2014-06-05, 07:30 AM

Why not fill the usual post reveal - pre judging hiatus with the always fun: (insert horrible prestige class here) pretty please?

Muggins

2014-06-05, 07:35 AM

Why not fill the usual post reveal - pre judging hiatus with the always fun: (insert horrible prestige class here) pretty please?
You're right, it is just about time that we did a Shining Blade of Heironeous round!

AvatarVecna

2014-06-05, 08:36 AM

You're right, it is just about time that we did a Shining Blade of Heironeous round!

Disciple of the Word
Occult Slayer
Spymaster
Pale Master

KrimsonNekros

2014-06-05, 08:48 AM

DotU Arachnomancer! Oh oh also Slime Lord!

Telonius

2014-06-05, 09:10 AM

Thief-Acrobat might be a good one for awful (though maybe not so soon after Darkrunner).

Sian

2014-06-05, 09:37 AM

should be time for a half-caster (or seperate caster) of some kind so ...

Fleet runner of Ehlonna (With allowences to ignore the Deity)
Warpriest
Visionary Seeker
Disciple of Thyrm

All could be interesting to play around with

Vaz

2014-06-05, 10:42 AM

Slime Lord, Gnome Giant Slayer, Winterhaunt, Thief of Life, Tattooed Monk, Soulbow, Runescarred Berserker (modified to fit), Purifier of the Hallowed Doctrine, Hellbreaker.

Kazudo

2014-06-05, 11:06 AM

Doomlord? Doomlord! Doooooooooooooomlooooooooooooooord.

Also, my work schedule just kind of exploded in my face. Judging is a tentative maybe.

Deadline

2014-06-05, 11:33 AM

Judging is progressing, albeit slowly. I have to admit, of the builds I've finished judging for so far, I've had a couple of real head-scratchers. :smallconfused:

Still, the dishes are tasty, and I'm a glutton ... for punishment. :smallwink:

Sian

2014-06-05, 01:25 PM

Head-scratchers as in "why build it this way" or in "how is this supposed to work" ?

Deadline

2014-06-05, 02:54 PM

Head-scratchers as in "why build it this way" or in "how is this supposed to work" ?

Usually the former, and at least once, the latter (though I figured out the reasoning on it, I think). And of course, I've already had to ask myself the dreaded question, "Why didn't you just go with more X rather than the SI?" That's a sure-fire way to cost some points. That said, barring non-qualification, I don't think I'm going to be scoring anything below a 10 this round, everything is reasonably well proof-read and solidly built. :smallsmile:

KrimsonNekros

2014-06-05, 07:39 PM

Well hopefully mine isn't causing too many headaches this go round. Though I'm wondering if anyone has an idea as to which build is mine this go round.

Amphetryon

2014-06-05, 08:46 PM

Well hopefully mine isn't causing too many headaches this go round. Though I'm wondering if anyone has an idea as to which build is mine this go round.

Is it the one with Darkrunner?

sakuuya

2014-06-05, 09:21 PM

Is it the one with Darkrunner?

Nah, can't be. KrimsonNekros did a Darkrunner build last time. :smalltongue:

KrimsonNekros

2014-06-05, 09:37 PM

Nah, can't be. KrimsonNekros did a Darkrunner build last time. :smalltongue:

NO i did a Blind DD who just happened to have alot of Darkrunner :P

Tim Proctor

2014-06-06, 12:22 AM

I hope mine are causeing so much stress that we get to have rap battle disputes... mine are the darkrunner.

Kazudo

2014-06-06, 10:33 AM

Is it the one with Darkrunner?

Well there goes SOMEONE'S anonymity.

Vaz

2014-06-06, 12:59 PM

When it gets to the mid point stage, and I've entered, I start getting all excited when I see the thread has new replies. =(.

dysprosium

2014-06-06, 01:15 PM

I feel the same way. :smallredface:

Sian

2014-06-06, 01:31 PM

Me three :smallsigh:

KrimsonNekros

2014-06-06, 02:10 PM

What do we want? Judgings! When do we want them? Now!

Deadline

2014-06-06, 03:33 PM

I'm highly unlikely to finish until after the weekend.

AvatarVecna

2014-06-06, 04:55 PM

I'm highly unlikely to finish until after the weekend.

I second that; I've still got a ways to go, although I'm almost finished.

Kazudo

2014-06-06, 05:01 PM

My judging is heavily dependent on how busy work remains.:smallmad:

OMG PONIES

2014-06-07, 06:45 AM

What do we want? Judgings! When do we want them? Now!

As a legal fiduciary for the Judges' Union, I am authorized to begin negotiations on their behalf. The judges agree to provide judgings within a set period not to exceed the deadline pre-established by the competition's chair in exchange for a good faith promise of a 98% reduction in disputes and an increase of no less than 23% in the number of beers and cheese fries secretly purchased for the judges by strangers on the Internet.

http://ih2.redbubble.net/image.14838793.3338/fc,550x550,white.u1.jpg

Muggins

2014-06-07, 06:55 AM

.. cheese fries ...
So that's where all these chips have been coming from!

Amphetryon

2014-06-07, 08:13 AM

a 98% reduction in disputesGiven no baseline for number of disputes in your proposal, we accept, and promise to dispute 98% less than would otherwise have been the case.

Tim Proctor

2014-06-07, 08:42 AM

Okay I bought a bunch of beer and cheetos for the judges, but since none of the judges are at my place I am going to have to drink/eat all of it myself. Oh well, good thing the agreement didn't stipulate that the goods had to make it to the judges, RAW.:smallsmile:

AvatarVecna

2014-06-07, 09:15 AM

Muggins

2014-06-08, 01:43 AM

I'm nervous about revealing some of these judgings. On the upside, I'll be sure to have plenty of disputes to occupy myself with!

Telonius

2014-06-09, 08:23 AM

Three days to go - the suspense is killing me! :smallcool:

Rama

2014-06-09, 09:14 AM

I'm putting the finishing touches/final review on my judging; taking care of the stupid mistakes, so it leaves only the really stupid mistakes for disputes.

Probably be up in...an hour or two.

OMG PONIES

2014-06-09, 09:18 AM

I've got 9 builds judged with 6 more to go. At this rate, I'm hoping to hit 3 a day and post my scores on Wednesday night.

Vaz

2014-06-09, 09:20 AM

Oh, and Rage Mage, for another class suggestion. Good to hear guys, seem to be flying thorugh these ones =D Excited.

AvatarVecna

2014-06-09, 09:57 AM

I'm almost finished with judging, so now I've got to get it all written up.

Rama

2014-06-09, 11:07 AM

And here...we...go

For reference, the scoring guidelines I use are as follows:

SCORING CONSIDERATIONS
ORIGINALITY

Does the entry present a compelling backstory/concept that ties in with the SI? – up to 1.00 points
Does the entry make use of any unique mechanical tricks/feat chains as a significant aspect of the submission? – up to 1.00 points
Does the entry enter the Secret Ingredient through use of race and/or class combinations both unexpected and unique relative to the other entries? – up to 1.50 points
Does the entry avoid known cheese and overused optimization suggestions? – up to .50 points

POWER

Does the entry contribute significantly in terms of offense, defense, and/or utility throughout the build? – up to 3.00 points
Does the entry function at the same power level throughout an entire adventuring day, rather than relying on "nova" powers? - up to .50 points
Does the entry thrive without a reliance on items, templates, or other "add-ons" for its power? - up to.50 points

ELEGANCE

Does the entry qualify for all classes taken outside the Secret Ingredient? – up to 2.00 points
Does the entry qualify for all feats taken? – up to .50 points
Does the entry avoid reliance on any questionable rules interpretations, or cross-setting material? – up to 1.00 points
Does the entry avoid multi-class penalties and/or excessive class dipping? – up to .50 points

USE OF THE SECRET INGREDIENT

Does the entry use the Secret Ingredient at an early stage of the build and complete the Secret Ingredient (or present a compelling reason why not doing so is actually a better use of the Secret Ingredient)? – up to 1.50 points
Does the entry utilize all mechanical abilities provided by the SI (and its prerequisites) as key components of the build, synergize the unique mechanical abilities of the Secret Ingredient with the rest of the build, and/or present a novel use of said mechanical abilities? – up to 1.50 points
Does the entry emphasize the concept of the SI throughout, and build upon that concept in a thorough manner? – up to 1.00 points

Note that the above are guidelines only, and do not encompass all potential scoring matters; I reserve the right to depart from them as I deem necessary.

Without further ado:

Ryld – Final Score: 13.00 Points

ORIGINALITY - 2.50 Points

A good start to background. Could tie in a little better to the explorer nature of the class, but solid. +.75 points
The feat selections seem fairly standard; adding wings is different, but wouldn’t call it a significant aspect to the submission. +.25 points
Races/classes were pretty well expected and/or represented by other entries. +.00 points
The entry avoids known cheese and overused optimization suggestions. +.50 points

POWER – 3.50 Points

Offensively, as long as you can dictate the terms you’re pretty solid. The wings do help maintain that ranged advantage, although pairing that with cave fighting could be problematic; how many situations are going to prevent you from employing them effectively? Defensively nothing special; the aforementioned wings would help, if the environment allows them to be used (Add’l Note: there is a qualification problem in the wings – see Elegance; as such, they are not factored in this score). Will save is a glaring weakness if targeted. Utility is decent throughout, although I do note your move silent lagging behind at middle/upper levels for maximum effectiveness of your investment in Darkstalker.

In summary, the first ten or so levels seem competitive; but the darkrunner levels you’re adding in the second half of the build are weakening your relative power rather than strengthening it in my option (as it would have done if you’d built it in earlier in the build). +1.50 points
The entry functions at the same power level throughout the day, rather than relying on nova powers. +.50 points
The entry avoids reliance on templates, items, etc for power. +.50 points

ELEGANCE – 3.75 Points

The entry qualifies for all classes taken (not including the SI). +2.00 points
You don’t qualify for the fiendish bloodline feat; missing the spontaneous arcane spellcasting requirement. Without that, you don’t qualify for outsider wings. You’re also missing the base will save requirement for outsider wings. +.00 points
The entry avoids reliance on questionable rules interpretations and setting specific material. +.50 points
You’re a little dip-happy with the base classes. A small deduction is warranted. +.25 points

USE OF THE SECRET INGREDIENT – 3.25 Points

The entry qualifies for the SI, and begins it early; but completion is significantly delayed. While there is some short term power benefit to doing so, I don’t believe it presents a compelling reason not to; particularly since that power gain early results in weak power late. +1.00 points
The entry uses some of the abilities of the build, but it has more of a ‘because they’re there’ feel rather than true synergy. The ranger favored enemy not meshing with the aberration benefits of the SI is one example where synergy could be enhanced. Adding wings as well seems to negate or impair some of the SI abilities (tremorsense most notably). There is some fit there from a scouting perspective, but I feel like it could be better. +.75 points
In terms of feel, it almost seems like your other dip (Cavestalker) would serve better as the primary focus of this build. Darkrunner feels like a poor second in this presentation. +.50 points

Richard B. Riddick – Final Score: 9.00 Points

ORIGINALITY - 3.00 Points

No background or concept story presented. +.00 points
No significant unique mechanical tricks or feat chains noted. Astral tracking is different, but at the tail end and doesn’t add anything to Darkrunner. +.00 points
Deep Imaskari choice was unexpected. I appreciate the use of Otherworldly for the darkvision; although that necessitates further discussion under UotSI as to qualification. Shadowlord and Jaunter weren’t really expected, although that does lead to the concerns discussed under UotSI. +1.50 points
The entry avoids known cheese and overused optimization suggestions. +.50 points

POWER – 3.00 Points

Offensively, early on you’re sub-par. It’s pretty obviously building towards the expected power gain later when you get into Telflammar Shadowlord and Jaunter, but filling all those pre-reqs leaves you with less room for tricks in your first 10 levels. (Note: due to qualification concerns noted in Elegance, abilities gained through Telflammar Shadowlord are not factored into this power score). Defensively ok, but again nothing really stands out until the later level prestige class benefits. Utility shines through Able Learner, and is useful throughout.

In summary, the first ten levels are underwhelming for all but utility; the higher levels improve (if qualifications were met), but it still doesn’t stand out. +1.00 points
The entry functions at the same power level throughout the day, rather than relying on nova powers. +.50 points
The entry avoids reliance on templates, items, etc for power. +.50 points

ELEGANCE – 1.00 Points

Does not qualify for Telflammar Shadowlord, missing the required 2d6 sneak attack damage. Other non-SI classes are qualified for. +1.00 points
The entry qualifies for all feats taken. +.50 points
Your race selection is rather setting specific, and requires particular working with the DM to incorporate as opposed to less unusual choices. +.50 points
You’re a little dip-happy with the base classes. A small deduction is warranted. +.25 points
ADDITIONAL NOTE: As per the Chairman’s posted instructions, each flaw used necessitates a -1.00 point to elegance. As such, the above scores are modified for two flaws. Specific flaws not being presented is also subject to a penalty of .50 for incompleteness (to a score of 1.00 at the minimum). (2.50) points

USE OF THE SECRET INGREDIENT – 2.00 Points

The submission enters the SI at an early point, and takes a substantial portion early. Three levels are omitted; from a strict power standpoint, assuming qualifications, that loss is overshadowed by the gains added on. However, it would be nice to see it completed; and the departure doesn’t significantly enhance the SI specifically.

The elephant in the room is usage of Otherworldly to qualify. The Chairman’s ruling stated that the darkvision qualification must be derived from race or class; which would rule out feats as means to qualify. However, Otherworldly, as a level-1-only feat would seem to me to be more racial enhancement than a non-racial feat granting darkvision. As such, I am treating this submission as qualifying for the SI.

However, the RP requirement of applying to join the Darkrunner guild is not addressed. Since nearly every other entry did address that requirement, failing to do so does necessitate a lesser score. +.50 points.
There doesn’t seem to be a great deal of synergy here for Darkrunner mechanically; or rather, Darkrunner is being overshadowed by Telflammar Shadowlord and Jaunter. Not only do those better (not enhance, but provide superior alternatives to) your Darkrunner abilities, but they also will likely lead to adventuring well outside the area your Darkrunner abilities will help (Jaunter, notably with plane shift). The fact that you note the point when you’ve laid down the Darkrunner burden and moved into those other prestige classes as “where things get nice” exemplifies this problem. +.50 points
In terms of feel, as noted it almost seems like your other dips are the primary focus of this build. Darkrunner feels squeezed in because it has to be in this presentation. +.00 points

Skitters – Final Score: 17.75 Points

ORIGINALITY - 4.50 Points

An interesting start; fits the flavor of the SI for this character. As in many cases, I’d like to see more – but can’t complain about what is here. +1.00 points
I like the Hindering Opportunist addition in concert with Prime Underdark Guide; Tunnel Fighting and Evasive Reflexes are nice plug-ins as well, and all together synergize nicely with your build. +1.00 points
A bonus for Prime Underdark Guide, which fits nicely and made no other showings. Kobold was not expected, either. Otherwise, fairly standard. +1.00 points
The entry avoids known cheese and overused optimization suggestions. +.50 points

POWER – 4.00 Points

Offensively a little weak. If scout for some skirmish damage could be worked in, it would be a big help I think; unfortunately I don’t really see an easy way to make that happen either. One more point of BAB at 20 would be nice as well. Defensively has some nice tricks, and I really like the assisting-others defensive aspects. Will save is a little weak, could use addressing. Solid utility throughout.

It’s nit-picky, but I might rather see Stalwart Defense than Tunnel Fighting at level 18. If you could squeeze Tunnel Fighting in earlier, that’d be another story; but I think you’d get more benefit from Stalwart Defense at that point. Maybe Tunnel Fighting in place of Skill Focus (Listen) (since you don’t need the skill focus for Keen Earned Scout, with the Alertness feat in the bank)?

In summary, could use help offensively throughout, but solid defensively and utility. +2.00 points.
The entry functions at the same power level throughout the day, rather than relying on nova powers. +.50 points
The entry avoids reliance on templates, items, etc for power. +.50 points

ELEGANCE – 4.75 Points

The entry qualifies for all classes (and I’m impressed with all the bases being covered for Prime Underdark Guide). +2.00 points
The entry qualifies for all feats. +.50 points
The entry avoids reliance on questionable rules interpretations and setting specific material. +1.00 points
The entry avoids excessive class dipping. You do get tagged for a multi-class penalty for one level (4 -> 5) which, although quickly corrected, must be noted. +.25 points

USE OF THE SECRET INGREDIENT – 4.50 Points

The entry qualifies for and takes the class to completion, although entry is fairly late in relation to the other submissions. The flavors of your earlier ingredients do blend well, which is worthy of a partial offset; but this does represent a deficiency in the end. +1.00 points
Mechanical abilities synergize effectively, and the abilities of the SI are well represented throughout the entry. +1.50 points
I love the flavor of this entry. Every element comes together and presents a harmony of the scout/guide of the Underdark. Very well done. +1.00 points

Ariadne – Final Score: 15.75 Points

ORIGINALITY - 3.25 Points

An interesting start; the ‘good guys psychotic killers of stereotypically evil creatures’ aspect is a little overplayed in my personal opinion, but I can’t fault your execution. +.75 points
Planar touchstone is nice add. Otherwise pretty standard/expected. +.25 points
Stonedeath assassin is different; changeling as well, although that has its own problems (under UotSI). Otherwise pretty expected. +.75 points
The entry avoids known cheese and overused optimization suggestions. +.50 points

POWER – 3.75 Points

Offensively pretty decent in the middle, but the beginning and end games are a bit weak. A trick or something to help out early levels would make it much better, and enough BAB for another attack at the top end would be good. Stonedeath Strike is nice, but the save will likely be difficult to overcome in many of your adversaries at the level you get it. The other Stonedeath Assassin abilities give you some good tactical potential. Some small defensive aids, but not much that stands out. Will save is weak and needs addressing. Utility is comparable to the rest of the submissions; solid overall. The tricks you add, such as stonedeath strike and planar touchstone, are really nice ideas; but are coming too late for significant benefit.

In summary, average to slightly below average in offensive effectiveness; average defensively, and good utility. +1.75 points
The entry functions at the same power level throughout the day, rather than relying on nova powers. +.50 points
Dark template could qualify as undue reliance, but in your case I see it more as enhancer than something you have to have. +.50 points

ELEGANCE – 4.50 Points

The entry qualifies for all feats. +.50 points
The entry qualifies for all non-SI classes, although see next bullet. +2.00 points
Some potential issues with using Changeling Racial Emulation to work with Stonedeath Assassin’s goblinoid subtype requirement. Specifically, whether the class is invalidated whenever you’re *not* in a goblinoid form. It’s potentially a significant impairment of the build. +.50 points
The entry avoids multi-class penalties and excessive dipping. +.50 points

USE OF THE SECRET INGREDIENT – 4.25 Points

The entry takes the SI at an early point and completes it; although it takes a while to get all the way there. That said, the delay is for a good cause that fits well. +1.50 points
I like the mechanical synergy of your submission, particularly the Stonedeath Strike and Lore of the Stones idea. I just wish the major pieces came together sooner. As it stands, the flavor doesn’t really blend completely until the very end. +1.00 points
The flavor feels a little off between your two primary class choices. It’s not a major problem with the submission, just slightly less than ideal. +.75 points

Orion Garranan – Final Score: 10.50 Points

ORIGINALITY - 2.25 Points

A small bonus for having something, but it’s not really giving me much of a feel for your character; who he is, why he is, etc. I’d like to see something more fleshed out. +.25 points
No significant unique mechanical tricks or feat chains noted. +.00 points
Not much really unique here. Factotum was widely used, and Savant not unexpected (albeit a small bonus for the only usage). A small bonus for the Eneko. +.75 points
Primordial + Eneko is a fairly common op suggestion. Otherwise, no significant cheese/overused items. +.25 points

POWER – 2.50 Points

Offensively ok early with cunning insight and stacked intelligence. However, that tails off sharply as you level and isn’t really replaced with any notable tricks. Beyond invisibility, no defense of note; and without Darkstalker (or hide/move silent skill points), invisibility alone won’t do a ton for you underground where most things hunt by means other than sight. Utility potential is extremely high, but as presented is minimal.

Feat selection feels a little schizophrenic. If you’re going to throw in Imperious Command, I’d like to see more built-in fear stacking; just a little feels like an abandoned track and leaves you with a couple of weak abilities vs one strong one.

In summary, decent offense very early that rapidly tails off; minimal defense; minimal utility. +.50 points
The entry functions at the same power level throughout the day, rather than relying on nova powers. +.50 points
Pretty much your only significant trick comes from your template invisibility. I’m tempted to deduct here; but because I hammered that trick in the earlier point, I won’t consider it an undue emphasis. +.50 points

ELEGANCE –2.50 Points

The entry qualifies for all non-SI classes taken. +2.00 points
The entry qualifies for all feats taken, with the proviso noted below. +.50 points
The entry is rather reliant on Eberron specific material, most notably Eneko. Additionally, a minor rules issue with obtaining a familiar as a factotum. While sources can be cited that indirectly support allowing it, there is an issue with the arcane caster level requirement being met. I think most DMs would allow it, but it is a concern. It also affects your planar familiar “sufficient arcane spellcaster level” requirement. +.00 points
Once you add Savant, you’ve got a multi-class exp penalty that sticks with you the rest of the way. +.00 points
ADDITIONAL: I realize that the skills are difficult to present, having so many. However, if that’s the route you choose to go then it’s a effort I feel you should make for completeness of the submission. As such, I am imposing a point deduction for not providing a complete submission. (1.00) points

Also, the LA level should be at the beginning of your build, not the end. Power and other scores reflect the correction.

USE OF THE SECRET INGREDIENT – 3.25 Points

Using familiar to get free alertness for qualification…is problematic. If you ever let the familiar even leave your arm’s reach, let alone if it dies, you no longer qualify for the SI. While mechanically if qualifies, it’s pretty dicey.

Otherwise, you do enter the SI at a reasonably early point; although it’s abandoned for a significant stretch before it’s completed. I wouldn’t call this delay significantly compelling either; I’d rather have seen more of it finished earlier.

Additionally, the RP requirement is not met. Since most of the submissions did present this element, a small deduction for failure to do so is warranted. +.25 points
Mechanically, the entry enhances and utilizes the abilities of the SI decently. As noted previously, having actual skills shown would help enhance that; but overall, there is decent synergy. +1.00 points.
The entry feels right for the SI; a solid composition, for what is presented. +1.00 points

Ihlmrhys Do'ar– Final Score: 14.00 Points

ORIGINALITY - 2.50 Points

Background exists, but could be much more fleshed out. I’d really like to see more here. +.25 points
No significant unique mechanical tricks or feat chains noted. +.00 points
Was not expecting to see a paladin. Otherwise fairly standard. +.75 points
The entry avoids known cheese and overused optimization suggestions. +.50 points

POWER – 3.50 Points

Offensively pretty good early and into the middle levels. Upper level offensive power tails off with a lack of significant tricks beyond hitting things with your beat-stick. Defensively decent, saves are solid and a few tricks to help out; although nothing that stands out dramatically. As you noted, your skills (and related utility) are sub-par. This continues throughout the build, particularly in relation to other entries.

In summary, good offense that tails off late; average defense; well below average utility. +1.50 points
The entry functions at the same power level throughout the day, rather than relying on nova powers. +.50 points
The entry avoids reliance on templates, items, etc for power. +.50 points

ELEGANCE – 5.00 Points

The entry qualifies for all non-SI classes taken. +2.00 points
The entry qualifies for all feats taken. +.50 points
The entry avoids reliance on questionable rules interpretations and setting specific material. +1.00 points
The entry avoids multi-class penalties and excessive dipping. +.50 points

USE OF THE SECRET INGREDIENT – 3.00 Points

The entry takes the SI rather later than average, and does not complete it. Lack of completion does have a significant mitigating factor (earth glide), which does help mesh with the SI. +1.00 points
I like the attempt to work in the Underdark Knight mechanics, and I see why you cut short the SI to get the Earth Glide ability; but it’s coming so late that it’s not really giving you any mechanical benefit. The rest of the build doesn’t mesh well together mechanically, and sacrifices too much to get that level 20 boost. I applaud the creative attempt, but paladin just doesn’t enhance the mechanics of this SI. +.50 points
As previous noted, it’s a creative try; but it falls short of emphasizing the concept of the SI. Underdark Knight helps some, but the rest hinders more than it adds. +.50 points.

Adlib – Final Score: 15.00 Points

ORIGINALITY - 4.00 Points

I think I get what you’re going for with the fluff, but it rubs me the wrong way. Particularly with the potential for a story that you built in with the paragon/Destiny tracks, it’s disappointing. A small bonus for having something, but I really don’t like it. +.25 points
The destiny track for feats is different, and an interesting touch. The many skill tricks are nice as well. +1.00 points
Factotum was an obvious starting point, but everything else you added was not. Elegance issues are not factored in here, as they are addressed elsewhere. +1.25 points.
The entry avoids known cheese and overused optimization suggestions. +.50 points

POWER – 3.00 Points

Offensively doesn’t really bring much to the table. No special tricks to help out, and is below average with a beat-stick. The destiny feats help some, but aren’t game-changers. Defensively ok, some nice skill tricks to help out. Doesn’t really stand out from the pack on defense though. Strong utility at all levels.

Not having Darkstalker when most of the underground adversaries would have non-visual senses is a significant negative, since you’ve invested a good deal in hide.

In summary, below average offense; average to slightly below average defense; above average utility. +1.00 points.
The entry functions at the same power level throughout the day, rather than relying on nova powers. +.50 points
The entry avoids reliance on templates, items, etc for power. +.50 points

ELEGANCE – 5.00 Points

Qualifies for all non-SI classes. +2.00 points
Qualifies for all feats. +.50 points
The entry avoids reliance on questionable rules interpretations and setting specific material. +1.00 points
The entry avoids multi-class penalties and excessive dipping. +.50 points

USE OF THE SECRET INGREDIENT – 3.00 Points

The entry qualifies for the SI, takes it at a relatively early point (but not as early as some), and rides it to completion. +1.50 points
Mechanically, I don’t see a ton of synergy with the SI abilities. They’re there, and they’ll be used from time to time, but the other elements of the build aren’t really enhancing them. +.50 points
The SI really doesn’t fit the feel here. As you noted, you’re going for a paragon/destiny feel to the character, which really doesn’t blend well with the SI’s explorer/scout/guide elements. It seems like several other things would fit much better in its place. +.00 points

Graima – Final Score: 13.75 Points

ORIGINALITY - 3.00 Points

This introduction feels more like foe hunter than darkrunner. I’m not really seeing a fit at this point, beyond taking place underground. More detail/depth would have helped. +.25 points
Blend into Shadows is a nice touch. Other than that, nothing really stands apart. +.25 points
I really like the unique approach for the base classes selected. Not a method I was expecting. Foe Hunter saw other usage, however. +1.25 points
Whisper gnome is a little cheesy. +.25 points

POWER – 3.50 Points

The offensive ambush potential is nice, particularly early. Would be good to see more wallop packed into it though – more sneak attack, death attack, etc. Offensive power declines pretty heavily once you get into the second half of the build, to a somewhat average point in relation to other builds. Defensive hide tricks are nice, although if they do detect you you’re in for some pain. Another option for escape would have been good; although the Foe Hunter DR helps. Saves are solid. Utility is sub-par for the competition, although that is to be expected with the path you’ve chosen to go.

In summary, strong offensive potential early that tails off rather sharply in the end; slightly above average defense; below average utility. +1.50 points
The entry functions at the same power level throughout the day, rather than relying on nova powers. +.50 points
The entry avoids reliance on templates, items, etc for power. +.50 points

ELEGANCE – 3.75 Points

Qualifies for all feats. +.50 points
Qualifies for all non-SI classes taken, although see next bullet. +2.00 points
I’m putting this under rules questions rather than disqualifying the class, but I think there are issues with how you’re handling the language requirement for Foe Hunter. The (if any) qualifier, I think, can more readily be interpreted as “the specific enemy does not speak” rather than “they don’t have one unifying language because the category is broad”. It’s more intended to be “aboleth hunter” than “aberration hunter” as an example; or “elf hunter” rather than “humanoid hunter” to use another case. +.00 points
You’re a little dip-happy with the base classes. A small deduction is warranted. +.25 points

USE OF THE SECRET INGREDIENT – 3.50 Points

The entry qualifies mechanically for the SI, enters at an early point, and takes the SI to completion. However, the RP requirement of applying to join the Darkrunner guild is not addressed. Since nearly every other entry did address that requirement, failing to do so does necessitate a lesser score. +1.00 points.
Mechanically the mix is imperfect, but there is some synergy. I feel like the offensive aspects are being emphasized, while the more informational/exploring aspects are marginalized. +1.00 points
The concept as a whole of this entry feels a little off for this SI. The Foe Hunter is more recognizable in the dish than is the SI. The essence of Darkrunner is there, but needs to be brought out more fully. +.50 points

Roy – Final Score: 16.00 Points

ORIGINALITY - 2.75 Points

Background exists, but could be much more fleshed out. I’d really like to see more here. +.25 points
A more offensively focused feat chain than most of the rest of the entries, but not a significant departure from expected possibilities. +.50 points
A fairly expected entry, although small bonus for presenting the sole Deepstone Sentinel. +.50 points
The entry avoids known cheese and overused optimization suggestions. +.50 points

POWER – 4.25 Points

Solid offense; one of the most solid entries in terms of dishing out pain across the length of the build. Decent defense throughout; doesn’t really begin to stand out until the end of the build, but can at least hold its own. Utility is a little below average for the competition, but that comes with the way you built.

Really need to work Darkstalker in if you’re going to be hiding in an environment where most things don’t rely on sight. Having so much invested in hide/move silent is something of a waste without it.

In summary, good offense, average to slightly above average defense, below average utility. +2.25 points
The entry functions at the same power level throughout the day, rather than relying on nova powers. +.50 points
The entry avoids reliance on templates, items, etc for power. +.50 points

ELEGANCE – 4.75 Points

Qualifies for all non-SI classes taken. +2.0 points
Qualifies for all feats taken. +.50 points
The entry avoids reliance on questionable rules interpretations and setting specific material. +1.00 points
Multiclassing penalty once you add warblade at the latter half of the build. Only affects a few levels, but worth noting. +.25 points

USE OF THE SECRET INGREDIENT – 4.25 Points

The entry qualifies for the SI, enters at an early level, and takes it to completion. The RP requirement of applying to join the guild is a bit sketchy, but close enough to be allowed. +1.50 points
Most of the SI abilities are well represented in the build, although with the more martial focus some of the abilities feel a little neglected. The tracking and intelligence gathering elements could be more considered here. +1.00 points
This entry feels…close to the nature of the SI. It’s a little more general-martial than aberration-specific, and doesn’t have much of the guide nature worked in. But overall, a decent blend. +.75 points

Esmar Tuek – Final Score: 16.75 Points

ORIGINALITY - 3.75 Points

I get the impression you don’t like aboleths much…the introduction fits, but it’s rather choppy and bare bones. +.50 points
Some interesting feat choices; quick reconnoiter and gnome tunnel acrobatics are both nice adds. Really like the false pretenses feat in combo with an aboleth heavy adversary. +1.00 points
I like both the rogue variant classes you used. Fits in nicely. Otherwise, class/race selections were fairly expected/well represented. +.75 points
The entry avoids known cheese and overused optimization suggestions. +.50 points

POWER – 4.00 Points

Offensively, you’re not really standing out early. As you get more trick feats later on, the power starts to creep up though. At the end it’s still not as comprehensive as some of the strongest builds, but still decent. If you could squeeze an extra attack in somehow, that would help a fair bit; but difficult, I know. Defensively, decent as well. Tough enough to survive early; as I mentioned, I love False Pretenses; you’d get more use out of it earlier in the build, but I don’t see a great spot to slot it either. Love seeing Steadfast Determination in there too, saves are solid. Utility is pretty much par for the course for the competition, although I do like your boosted scouting potential. Harder in full plate with no sneaking around though.

In summary, average on offense early, creeping to slightly above average in the middle/end; slightly above average defensively; average utility. +2.00 points
The entry functions at the same power level throughout the day, rather than relying on nova powers. +.50 points
The entry avoids reliance on templates, items, etc for power. +.50 points

ELEGANCE – 4.50 Points

You don’t qualify for Foe Hunter, since you don’t specify that you speak the language of your hated enemy (aboleths). I know it’s nitpicky, but it’s a listed requirement of the class that needs to be addressed. Otherwise, you qualify for all non-SI classes taken. +1.00 points
The entry qualifies for all feats taken. +1.00 points
The entry avoids reliance on questionable rules interpretations and setting specific material. +1.00 points
The entry avoids multi-classing penalties and excessive dipping. +.50 points

USE OF THE SECRET INGREDIENT – 4.50 Points

The entry qualifies for the SI, enters at an early level and speedily takes it to completion. +1.50 points
Mechanically the build is a decent fit with the SI. I like that you’ve taken specific action to emphasize some of the scouting potential of the SI; a couple of the abilities aren’t really addressed (direction sense, deepsong) and are just there – although I know it’s hard to touch on everything. +1.25 points
The build does emphasize the concept of the SI, albeit with a slight overemphasis on the martial. The explorer aspect feels a little lost. +.75 points

Creb Covenant – Final Score: 17.50 Points

ORIGINALITY - 5.00 Points

Nice introduction/story to the character. +1.00 points
Vow of Obedience was not expected, or the metamagic feat chains. +1.00 points
I didn’t expect…any of the race or class selections. Nice selection. +1.50 points
The entry avoids known cheese and overused optimization selections. +.50 points

POWER – 4.00 Points

Offensively strong early in the entry. Maintains an above average offense throughout, although the gap narrows with regards to the other submissions in the middle and upper levels. Defense is average to above average throughout, albeit with a hole at reflex that isn’t addressed. Utility is average for the competition; with all those knowledge skills, inclusion of knowledge devotion would have been nice.

The one problem with starting as a caster is the amount you’re giving up to go into a non-casting SI. You’d be much better off from a strict power standpoint just staying with Spirit Shaman or a caster-advancing PRC. As such, entry into the SI feels like a drop in power rather than an enhancement.

Additionally, your selection for aberration specialist is extremely specialized. I don’t know that you’re going to see that much use from it. Creative choice, but a more common selection would be more useful.

In summary, above average offense that suffers from the inclusion of the SI; average to above average defense; average utility. +2.00 points
The entry has a small nova element to its powers; bear shifting helps maintain a throughout-the-day strength to compensate, though. +.50 points
The entry avoids reliance on templates, items, etc for power. +.50 points

ELEGANCE – 5.00 Points

The entry qualifies for all non-SI classes. +2.00 points
The entry qualifies for all feats. +.50 points
The entry avoids reliance on questionable rules interpretations and setting specific material. +1.00 points
The entry avoids multi-classing penalties and excessive dipping. +.50 points

USE OF THE SECRET INGREDIENT – 3.50 Points

Qualifies for the SI and enters it reasonably early. Splits up completion, however, and doesn’t knock out the last levels until the end. This does boost power, but at the expense of the SI rather than in concert with it. +1.25 points
Mechanically the fit is a little suspect. While the Shaman and Sentinel additions give you power, they don’t really do a lot to enhance the SI and its abilities in particular; providing spell selection might help, but maybe not. And as I noted in power, mechanically it seems like the SI is only here because it’s the SI and not because the mechanics of the various classes form a harmonious whole. +.75 points
Overall the flavor is a bit suspect. The Spirit Shaman’s spirits emphasis is a little at odds with the SI’s anti-aberration abilities. In the end, the Spirit Shaman/Sentinel threatens to overwhelm the SI, but you’ve managed to make them hold together in concert for the most part. +.50 points

Delehdas – Final Score: 14.75 Points

ORIGINALITY - 3.25 Points

Nice introduction/backstory. Although the seeming desire to escape the main habitat of the Darkrunner guild is questionable. We’ll see how it fits…+.75 points
No real significant unique mechanical tricks or feat chains noted. +.00 points
Wasn’t particularly expecting to see a bard or horizon walker. Ranger was common, and Underfolk saw usage as well. +1.00 points
The entry avoids known cheese and overused optimization suggestions. +.50 points

POWER – 3.00 Points

Offensively average early, descending to below average in the middle and late sections of the build. Don’t really have any offensive tricks of note to help out at any point. Defensively is pretty much the same. You can hide and sneak around with reasonable success, but if you get spotted you’ve got not much to fall back on. Utility is average to above average throughout.

Additionally, as I discuss further in UotSI, I really don’t understand the point of the last 4 levels from a power perspective. At that point you’re either adding to your power to fight in those terrains by rendering worthless everything you just spent ten levels getting from Darkrunner; or you’re getting dead levels that do nothing for you when you’re using your Darkrunner environment.

In summary, below average offensively; average to below average defensively; average to above average utility. +1.00 points
The entry functions at the same power level throughout the day, rather than relying on nova powers. +.50 points
The entry avoids reliance on templates, items, etc for power. +.50 points

ELEGANCE – 5.00 Points

Qualifies for all non-SI classes taken. +2.00 points
Qualifies for all feats. +.50 points
The entry avoids reliance on questionable rules interpretations and setting specific material. +1.00 points
The entry avoids multi-classing penalties and excessive dipping. +.50 points

USE OF THE SECRET INGREDIENT –3.50 Points

The entry enters the SI at a reasonable level (albeit not as early as some, but without significant unnecessary delay), and takes the SI to completion. +1.50 points
Mechanically, you synergize decently with most of the class options for most of the build. Horizon walker makes no sense to me, without the Underground terrain mastery. The selections do not work with the SI at all there, and I’d rather have seen at most a one level dip for Underground terrain mastery bonuses and then..almost anything else with the last 3 levels. Decent usage of the scouting and exploration elements of the SI; could use more discussion on the aberration elements and how those work in though, as they seem a bit neglected. +.50 points
For most of the build I can buy it as a representation of the SI; and then the last four levels kills it, when you add horizon walker. It feels like at that point you’re basically abandoning Darkrunner; and in that case, what’s the point of having the SI to begin with? +.50 points

Amaljss Myund– Final Score: 15.75 Points

ORIGINALITY - 2.75 Points

Interesting twist in the background; and a rather fine manipulation as well. +1.00 points
No unique mechanical tricks or feat chains noted. +.00 points
Class selections fairly well expected; shelling out the LA for Drow and a template on top of that, was not. +.75 points
Lolth touched is a rather cheesy addition, particularly since the potential RP consequences/drawbacks are ignored/unaddressed. +.00 points

POWER – 3.75 Points

Strong power early; maybe one of the strongest in the competition. Scout helps maintain that through the middle tiers, but at the top end you’re beginning to suffer the cost of those lost LA levels. Can still dish out some pain with the favored enemy feats to your chosen adversaries, but to anything else you’re deficient. Defensively ok; aside from the innate drow traits, not much in the way of survivability tricks. Could benefit from adding something to the mid-tier levels to stand out. Utility is a little weak early, suffering from the templates hit; but it catches up and is fairly average for the competition in the mid and top end.

To summarize, offense is above average but peaks at average. Defense is average. Utility is below average at first, then average. +2.00 points
The entry functions at the same power level throughout the day, rather than relying on nova powers. +.50 points
A fair portion of the build’s early power comes from templates. While not as bad as some template shenanigans could be, it bears noting. +.25 points

ELEGANCE – 5.00 Points

The entry qualifies for all non-SI classes. +2.00 points
The entry qualifies for all feats taken. +.50 points
The entry avoids reliance on questionable rules interpretations and setting specific material. +1.00 points
The entry avoids multi-classing penalties and excessive dipping. +.50 points

USE OF THE SECRET INGREDIENT – 4.25 Points

The SI is coming rather late, although it is taken to completion; template stacking has a cost there. I’m not really convinced that adding those templates enhances the SI to the point that the delay is wholly worthwhile. +1.00 points
A solid presentation of how the build utilizes each element of the SI. The various components do come together reasonably well and enhance each of those elements separately. +1.50 points
When I started reading, I was skeptical that the flavor would come together in the end. To my surprise, it does meld rather well. The explorer aspect is a little neglected, but that’s pretty unavoidable in this case I think. +.75 points

Rizzo– Final Score: 10.50 Points

ORIGINALITY - 1.75 Points

A small bonus for having a background, but this one is painful to read. So many run-on sentences; and short on details. +.25 points
No significant unique feat chains or mechanical tricks presented.+.00 points
From the bonus feats, I’m assuming you mean fighter rather than warrior, since the warrior class gets no bonus feats. As such, no unique/unexpected classes presented. +.00 points
The entry avoids known cheese and overused optimization suggestions. +.50 points

POWER – 2.75 Points

Offensive ability is decent. Can put out some damage early, although having both tunnel fighting and tunnelfighter feats seems a waste; they both basically do the same thing, so you’re not getting benefit from the second. It could be better spent on another trick to keep your combat prowess going in the middle game, where you’re otherwise starting to tail off. The last quarter of the build is a pretty big drop off in offensive output imo, compared to what it could be. Defensively, nothing stands out as a unique or powerful trick that the other entries don’t also have. Utility is poor; a little below average for the competition early, and significantly below average at the middle/end when you’re pumping out fighter levels.

I don’t like your feat selections in the second half of the build, in particular. Cleave at level 20 is pretty worthless, as are monkey grip and power attack at level 18. Blind fight isn’t much better. It kinda feels like you’re just running down a list of generic fighter bonus feats, and don’t really have a plan here.

In summary, average offense early becoming below average in the middle/end; below average defense; below average utility. +0.75 points
The entry functions at the same power level throughout the day, rather than relying on nova powers. +.50 points
The entry avoids reliance on templates and other add-ons for its power. +.50 points

ELEGANCE – 2.00 Points

The entry qualifies for all non-SI classes. See later bullet point re: Warrior +2.00 points
The entry qualifies for all feats. +.50 points
The entry avoids reliance on questionable rules interpretations and setting specific material. +1.00 points
The entry avoids multi-classing penalties and excessive dipping. +.50 points
ADDITIONAL NOTE: There are significant errors in your build presentation, notably in class (Warrior vs Fighter) and your base saves (whichever class it is, the fort save is way off, and you’re adding to Will when you shouldn’t get any). There may be other errors in the calculations as well; after those, I did not continue to look to make a comprehensive list. With the errors, I’m uncomfortable giving an elegance score of any higher than 2.00; the errors do render the submission as a below average elegance fit for the competition. As such, the final score has been capped at 2.00.

USE OF THE SECRET INGREDIENT – 4.00 Points

The entry qualifies for the SI, enters at an early point, and takes it to completion. +1.50 points
Mechanically the abilities of the SI are addressed, but outside the combat oriented ones I don’t really feel that the rest of the build hi-lights them in any significant way. While you can definitely use most, if not all, over the course of an adventuring day, the other additions don’t directly enhance them or cause them to stand out. That said, there isn’t any obvious contradiction either, which is worth something. +.75 points
The flavor of this build overall is…average. Like several others, it hi-lights the combat aspect of the SI to the detriment of the explorer/guide elements. +.75 points

And of course, even with fewer entries, I manage to blab my way to two posts. Second incoming...

Rama

2014-06-09, 11:08 AM

Number two...

Steven – Final Score: 12.00 Points

ORIGINALITY - 3.00 Points

The background/introduction is there, but it’s limited. I can see how it gets where it’s going, but would like to see more fleshing out. +.50 points
No significant unique or unexpected feat chains or tricks were noted. +.00 points
Swashbuckling dwarves did not spring immediately to mind for this SI; and trapsmith was a nice touch. The rest was not unexpected/unused. +1.00 points.
The entry avoids known cheese and overused optimization suggestions. +.50 points

POWER – 2.50 Points

Very weak early, offensively; the dips are hurting your ability to generate a decent offense. With your wisdom, you can’t actually cast any spells, which hurts badly. With that weak start, it never really gets up to an average offensive power level. Defensively, little stands out. What little you have comes from Trapsmith; the spells are a decent aid. Trapmaking could work in your favor, but you’d really have to be able to set the battleground ahead of time; and with the SI being an explorer type, that will be harder than usual to pull off. Will save is really weak, needs addressing. Utility is a saving grace, above average from the start and pretty much stays that way throughout. A little surprised at the lack of hide and move silently though; I’d expect that to be a solid aid to trap setting.

In summary, below average offensively; below average defensively early, but manages to rise to average in the middle; above average utility. 1.50 points.
The entry is fairly reliant on the spellcasting coming from Trapsmith. While it can do some things without it, the tricks that don’t rely on it are limited; and defense in particular takes a hard hit once the spell escapes are worn out. +.00 points
You’re rather more reliant on items than most. Wisdom item is needed to give you *any* cleric spellcasting, and you have to have dex added via items to get your Greater Two Weapon Fighting. When you have to have items to get basic utility out of class or feat selections, I can’t award points. +.00 points

ELEGANCE – 3.75 Points

Qualifies for all non-SI classes. +2.00 points
You don’t qualify for Practiced Spellcaster; need 4 ranks in Spellcraft skill. Otherwise, with the power proviso noted related to Greater TWF, you qualify for all feats. +.25 points
The entry avoids reliance on questionable rules interpretations and setting specific material. +.50 points
You’re a little dip-happy with the base classes. A small deduction is warranted. Additionally, you’ve got a multiclass exp penalty issue once Swashbuckler gets to level 3. +.00 points

USE OF THE SECRET INGREDIENT – 2.75 Points

The entry takes its time getting into the SI; but once it does it takes it to completion. I’d have liked to see an earlier entry, at least interspacing with the Trapsmith levels, to get the job started. The RP requirement of applying to join the guild is a bit sketchy, but close enough to be allowed. +.75 points.
Mechanically there isn’t a ton of synergy here. Trapsmith can get it done, and the trapfinding aspects are a definite help with the explorer feel of the SI; but actually setting traps is a hard fit. The aberration elements of the SI are not really explored or enhanced here, nor are the Lore of the Stones (Survival not being taken beyond the minimum doesn’t help there). Explorer skills like Listen and Survival, Hide and Move Silent are very weakly handled herein. All told, it has come potential for fits but needs to be worked to fit better. +.50 points
The flavor has potential here, but in the end it falls short. All those dips leave it underwhelming and without clear direction. +.50 points

And that's a wrap. I await your disputes with antici...pation.

Sian

2014-06-09, 11:56 AM

as an aside for your ruling on Adlib ... sidebar on p150 in Races of Destiny

Rama

2014-06-09, 12:03 PM

as an aside for your ruling on Adlib ... sidebar on p150 in Races of Destiny

Noted, will have to check tonight when I have access.

If it's what I think you are referencing, it's something I figured I was overlooking something obvious but couldn't find.

*EDIT* Ok got a run-down. Page 150 doesn't apply imo since it's an optional variant.

But I missed something else stupid on the main entry for Underfolk. Not sure how that didn't jump off the page and bite me. Adlib's score is changing (also Delehdas), please hold for corrective adjustment...

Muggins

2014-06-09, 12:29 PM

As an added aside, this one for Creb: The build references the Education feat from the Eberron Campaign Setting, which lacks any requirements other than being exclusive to level 1 characters. I can't recall off the top of my head whether there's a more recent version anywhere which adds the racial requirements, but I think you might be referring to a previous version (Races of Faerun, I think?).

Tim Proctor

2014-06-09, 12:30 PM

I see darkstalker mentioned in a lot of those reviews and I'm curious about it. Because it's not that good, since Mindsight basically says screw you to all of that. I can understand having it if the favored enemy was Beholder and you wanted the flanking bonus, but they don't have blindsense, blindsight, scent, or tremorsense anyways. Ryld, Riddick, Ariadne, Graima, Delehdas, Amaljss, all choose Mindflayers for their specialists. Skitters chooses Aboleths and reading LoM 24 and then the Psionic Aboleth, I'm fairly sure they get it too. Rizzo picks Umberhulks who don't have blindsense, blindsight, scent, or tremorsense. So am I wrong here, but IMO just about everyone wasted a feat.

Rama

2014-06-09, 12:32 PM

Tim Proctor

2014-06-09, 12:36 PM

Tim:

I disagree. Just because you may have a favored enemy selected that bypasses Darkstalker doesn't mean you don't have to deal with everything else in the Underdark (or whatever generic cave system you have to deal with). And many (if not all) things you might have to deal with have senses other than sight to detect.

If you take that approach, you might as well not bother with hide/move silent at all imo.
I can see it as quasi-utility, but if you're building around the SI and the feat isn't useful against the main enemy or focus of the SI abilities then I don't see how it is 'that' powerful. I'm saying that it is completely overrated, in this context.

Rama

2014-06-09, 12:38 PM

Rama

2014-06-09, 12:41 PM

I can see it as quasi-utility, but if you're building around the SI and the feat isn't useful against the main enemy or focus of the SI abilities then I don't see how it is 'that' powerful. I'm saying that it is completely overrated, in this context.

We'll have to agree to disagree there, I guess.

When I'm looking at the SI, I'm not seeing it as focused on a specific enemy. Yes, several of the builds made it that way. But I read it, and I see more a fearless explorer of the Underdark who is venturing where others dare not tread. Who is guiding those that pay around a variety of enemies.

Yes, he has a hated foe that he is particularly trained and skilled at dealing with. But that's not his job. His job is to get out there and explore/scout/etc. If he can only do that against one particular foe, or otherwise isn't prepared to handle any curve balls that might be thrown his way across the length and breadth of the Underdark, what good is he at his job?

Muggins

2014-06-09, 12:57 PM

I am rather surprised by the sheer amount of Favoured Enemy bonuses we got this round. Darkrunner has one ability which is related to it, and yet over half of the builds were Rangers. What about making some difficult terrain for the sake of those Improved Cavefighting bonuses that you boosted Intelligence for?

Kazudo

2014-06-09, 01:06 PM

The Leviathan Hunter/Darkrunner Anthro Constrictor Snake who hunted Delvers was like that. But it worked out, I just couldn't get it into format in time and write the fluff on it.

The Tunnel Shark idea (which wasn't ever really going to see the light of day due to some serious RAW issues I was having with the main idea) pretty much had no class features OTHER than Darkrunner and needed it to survive.

Sigh.

Sian

2014-06-09, 01:08 PM

i think that have more to do with getting Track cheaply, and class skills / Skill points to go into it, than Favored Enemies

Kazudo

2014-06-09, 01:14 PM

You're probably right. And if you've got Favored Enemy, you may as well make it Aberrations. And if you have Favored Enemy (Aberrations), you might as well pump it up since the build is slanted to being used to dealing with those.

dysprosium

2014-06-09, 01:32 PM

I think we know that's Tim's entry does not have Darkstalker . . .

Also remember that Mindsight is a feat and not an automatic ability by virtue of having telepathy. I can't remember any standard monster stat block that has Mindsight as a feat.

It's been referenced in Iron Chef before but the sheer amount of monsters that have abilities that beat "standard" sneaking alone is amazingly high. Because of this Darkstalker has become a staple for any build that any kind of sneakines. Compare with the Natural Spell feat on any Druid build with wildshaping.

Neither of these feats are mandatory but you can't deny that the build becomes better at what it is supposed to do without having them.

OMG PONIES

2014-06-09, 01:41 PM

Arithmetic Question for Rama: Delehdas' Elegance totals 5, but bullets total 4.5 (1 min+2 classes+.25 feats + 1 rules/material+.25 MC/dipping). Should the feats and MC/dipping bonuses be +.5 each like they are for other builds?

I see darkstalker mentioned in a lot of those reviews and I'm curious about it. Because it's not that good, since Mindsight basically says screw you to all of that. I can understand having it if the favored enemy was Beholder and you wanted the flanking bonus, but they don't have blindsense, blindsight, scent, or tremorsense anyways. Ryld, Riddick, Ariadne, Graima, Delehdas, Amaljss, all choose Mindflayers for their specialists. Skitters chooses Aboleths and reading LoM 24 and then the Psionic Aboleth, I'm fairly sure they get it too. Rizzo picks Umberhulks who don't have blindsense, blindsight, scent, or tremorsense. So am I wrong here, but IMO just about everyone wasted a feat.

The usual party line about Darkstalker is that it's a feat tax for sneaks. Given the sheer number of creatures with alternate senses, hiding without it quickly becomes outmoded. While there are still some creatures that can bypass it, Darkstalker is less about making sure the BBEG doesn't see you and more about making sure his low-level follower's riding dog doesn't sniff you out at the gate. You could make a sneak build without it, but you'd be making life harder for yourself.

I am rather surprised by the sheer amount of Favoured Enemy bonuses we got this round. Darkrunner has one ability which is related to it, and yet over half of the builds were Rangers. What about making some difficult terrain for the sake of those Improved Cavefighting bonuses that you boosted Intelligence for?

We also saw a good deal of folks find ways to create difficult terrain. I agree with what's already been stated--you snagged Track from ranger and favored enemy was just a bonus. However, there was a lot of favored enemy optimization that I haven't seen this round (keeping in mind that I'm not totally done the builds yet). What I expected to see WAY more of was using Tunnelport's "as dimension door" language to shoehorn in qualification for more things, a la our Telflammar Shadowlord. I was also surprised at the dearth of Dungeoncrasher Fighter, especially given that this Secret Ingredient basically only functions in dungeons.

But none of you came here to here my opinions. You came here for a table of standings.

Standings After One Judge (Before Disputes)
EntryPlaceTotalAverage
SkittersGold17.754.4375
Creb CovenantSilver17.54.375
Esmar TuekBronze16.754.1875
RoyFourth164
AriadneFifth15.753.9375
Amaljss MyundFifth15.753.9375
AdlibSeventh153.75
DelehdasEighth14.753.6875
Ihlmrhys Do'arNinth143.5
Graima VenariTenth13.753.4375
RyldEleventh133.25
StevenTwelfth123
Orion GarrananThirteenth10.52.625
RizzoThirteenth10.52.625
Richard B RiddickFifteenth92.25

Piggy Knowles

2014-06-09, 01:57 PM

Yeah, I've worked out the numbers before. In the SRD alone, there are...

125 creatures with blindsense,
15 creatures with blindsight,
132 creatures with scent, and
27 creatures with tremorsense.

This includes NO double entries - if a creature has, for example, both scent and tremorsense, I only counted it once (generally placing it based on the sense with greater range). That's 297 creatures in the SRD that will, full stop, be able to detect you even if you've got a hide check that needs scientific notation to be properly expressed. That's more than half the SRD, by the way - there are only 281 creatures that don't have alternate senses.

If you even pretend to be a stealthy character, you'd better be able to at least sneak past a CR 1/3 guard dog without it noticing. There are a few ways to do this, but Darkstalker is by far the easiest.

Rama

2014-06-09, 02:50 PM

Arithmetic Question for Rama: Delehdas' Elegance totals 5, but bullets total 4.5 (1 min+2 classes+.25 feats + 1 rules/material+.25 MC/dipping). Should the feats and MC/dipping bonuses be +.5 each like they are for other builds?

You are correct, sir. The 5.00 score matches my excel tables total, and should have .50 for those two bullets. Apparently my word type-up included an error. Original scoring post adjusted.

Vaz

2014-06-09, 05:20 PM

I was also surprised at the dearth of Dungeoncrasher Fighter, especially given that this Secret Ingredient basically only functions in dungeons.
I was going to try and use it in conjunction with Battle Jump to get a naughty charging routine if it came to that on the Insectile Human.

Deadline

2014-06-09, 05:28 PM

Having issues with my books on pdf at the moment, but I'm at 7/15 builds judged.

The Viscount

2014-06-09, 05:33 PM

Tim Proctor

2014-06-09, 05:37 PM

On the subject of darkstalker, I believe a good number of people picked up the habit after entering in or witnessing a particular round of Iron Chef that was sneak-based (I believe it was Shadowdancer) in which almost every, if not every entry, received a sizable penalty for not having darkstalker.
I can see why builds would take it, I just don't think this is one of those builds. It doesn't work in conjunction with the builds presented and my point was that I don't think it deserves as much attention/importance as Rama has given it. I'm not asking him to change his scores this round but it is very relevant as he mentioned it in nearly every power review.

OMG PONIES

2014-06-09, 06:13 PM

Amphetryon

2014-06-09, 07:17 PM

OMG PONIES

2014-06-10, 09:31 AM

*casts Summon Scores II*

My Criteria
Each entry will start at a base score of 12 (3 in each category), with deductions or bonuses awarded based on the following questions:

Originality:
Does the entry present a compelling backstory, concept, or theme aside from the mechanics of the build?
Does the entry enter the Secret Ingredient through a method unique from the sample character in the source as well as other entries in this round?
Does the entry make use of any unique mechanical tricks/feat chains?
Does the entry avoid known cheese and overused optimization suggestions?
Power:
Does the entry surpass a hypothetical build that continues in the base class used for qualification (i.e. does the entry follow established breakpoints for base classes or make a compelling case for the breakpoint selected)?
Does the entry function at the same power level throughout an entire adventuring day, rather than relying on "nova" powers or limited resources?
Does the entry thrive without an undue emphasis on items, templates, or other "add-ons" for its power?
Does the entry contribute significantly in terms of offense, defense, and utility? Here an answer of "No" denotes that the build thrives in one or fewer of those three categories, "yes and no" denotes that the build thrives in two of those three categories, and "yes" denotes that the build wins the elusive triple crown--pulling its weight in terms of all three of those categories.
Elegance:
Does the entry qualify for all classes taken outside the Secret Ingredient?
Does the entry qualify for all feats taken?
Does the entry avoid reliance on any questionable rules interpretations, as well as providing a list of source material while avoiding cross-setting material or material specifically disallowed from this competition?
Does the entry avoid multi-class penalties and dipping* more than once?
UoSI:
Does the entry qualify for the Secret Ingredient and make use of all entry requirements?
Does the entry complete the Secret Ingredient or present a compelling reason why not doing so is actually a better use of the Secret Ingredient?
Does the entry synergize the unique mechanical abilities of the Secret Ingredient with the rest of the build and/or present a novel use of said mechanical abilities?
Does the entry complement the background, concept, or theme of its chassis through use of the Secret Ingredient?
*Where "dipping" is defined as taking two or fewer levels in a base class or prestige class.
Each of the questions above can be answered in one of three ways. A straight "yes" will earn a +0.5 bonus to the category in question. A straight "no" will suffer a -0.5 penalty to the category, and an ambivalent "yes and no" will wash out with no adjustment to the category. Other scoring rules (like a flat -1 penalty per Flaw used, for instance) will be followed as requested by the Chairman in the thread. If there are any questions about the clarity of my criteria in general, please post them openly so I can address. If there are any disagreements with particular scores, please PM the chairman as part of the regular dispute process.

My Scores

Ryld: 15 (3.75 average)Originality: 3 I was digging the glimpse we got into your escaped mind flayer slave (0.5). While the race used was unique, everything else was repeated (-0.5). I think the Drow Fighter ACF is severely underused, so good on you. Fiendish Bloodline & Outsider Wings were an interesting way to acquire flight, but see my comments on Elegance (0.5). Lesser Planetouched races and Swift Hunter are great resources, but they're recommended time and again (-0.5).Power: 4.5 Scout 3 is a decent breakpoint and Fighter 2 is always a good splash, but Ranger 4 is really a better breakpoint than 2 as it lands you some sweet additional class features (0). The build functions at the same power level throughout an entire adventuring day, rather than relying on nova powers (0.5). The build thrives without an undue emphasis on items, templates, or other add-ons for power (0.5). Offensively, you maintain four iterative attacks and have a few sources of bonus damage between Drow Fighter, Favored Enemy, and Skirmish. Defensively, Flyby Attack can work wonders for you (but please see my comments on Elegance below). From a utility perspective, you've got a handful of skills and the ability to take 10 (0.5).Elegance: 3 The build qualifies for all classes taken outside the Secret Ingredient (0.5). Without the ability to cast arcane spells without preparation, you don't qualify for Fiendish Bloodline. Without Fiendish Bloodline and a base Will Save of +2 by 9th level, you don't qualify for Outsider Wings. Without Outsider Wings, you don't qualify for Flyby Attack. That's what we call an old-fashioned snowball effect (-0.5). We've got a questionable interpretation here. In your discussion of Manyshot and Skirmish, please keep two things in mind: First, you only get one attack (and at a -8 penalty for four arrows) so it's a little dicier than full attacking. Secondly, you only get to deal the precision damage from Manyshot once while using this tactic, which is something that was misinterpreted (0). Multiclass penalties were avoided, but we've got 2 dips (0).Use of the Secret Ingredient: 4.5 The build qualifies for the Secret Ingredient and makes use of entry requirements by qualifying for Cavestalker (0.5). The build completed the Secret Ingredient (0.5). While I like your attention to detail on the darkvision and the stacking of Cavestalker's skill bonuses with those of Darkrunner, most of the Ingredient's other class features didn't even receive passing mention (0). Darkrunner is perfect for a former slave who's learned to turn the tunnels to his advantage (0.5).
Richard B Riddick: 8.5 (2.125 average)Originality: 2.5 No backstory or nonmechanical concept was provided (-0.5). I love me some Deep Imaskari, and you brought in swordsage and teleportation-themed PrCs to flavor it up. The splashes of fighter and factotum were the only thing holding you back here (0). I have to give you points here for using Tunnelport's "as dimension door" to qualify for a PrC. Also, using Spellclutch and the Shadowlord's list of great spells available at level 1? A stroke of genius, it was (0.5). Swordsage/Telflammar Shadowlord/Jaunter is recommended all the time. For a good reason, sure, but it's hardly original at this point (-0.5).Power: 2.5 Fighter 2 and swordsage 2 are expected splashes, but Factotum 3 is a much better breakpoint than level 1. Also, more swordsage in later levels could have grabbed you some more teleportation maneuvers for shadow pouncing fun (-0.5). Your spells are limited, as are your X/day spell-like abilities (-0.5). The build thrives without an undue emphasis on items, templates, or other add-ons for power (0.5). Offensively, you lack either a fourth iterative attack or significant sources of bonus damage due to limited sneak attack progression. Defensively, though, your Shadowlord and Jaunter abilities are a help. You've got some good utility abilities via skills and feats as well (0).Elegance: 1 Deep Imaskari only have Deep Imaskar as a home region, so you'd need 2 ranks in Knowledge: Local to qualify for Telflammar Shadowlord. Without it, you don't qualify. Also, the lack of a listed alignment makes it hard to tell if you meet the nongood requirement of Telflammar Shadowlord (-0.5). Deep Imaskari don't qualify for Able Learner (-0.5). As per contest rules, we have subtracted 1 point for each flaw. Since the minimum score in this category for legal builds is 1, 1 point has been given back here (-1). Multiclass penalties were avoided, but we've got 3 dips (0).Use of the Secret Ingredient: 2.5 The build qualifies for the Secret Ingredient and makes use of entry requirements by picking up Keen-Eared Scout and using ranks in Survival for Astral Tracking (0.5). Only 7 levels of the Secret Ingredient were taken, with no compelling explanation as to how this is a better use of the Secret Ingredient than completion (-0.5). I really like the use of Tunnelport to meet the Dimension Door requirement of Telflammar Shadowlord, but that was the only class feature that received more than a passing mention (0). Without getting an idea of what your build was about, I was left wondering why we took Darkrunner instead of slapping on the shadow walker template and focusing on more swordsage/shadowlord/jaunter (-0.5).
Skitters: 16 17 (4 4.25 average)Originality: 4 I loved the concept of fleshing out a kobold guide for a party of PCs. Nitpick: "penultimate" means second to last, and I don't think you intended that (0.5). I really liked kobold and Prime Underdark Guide, but everything else here was repeated. More Underdark Guide instead of Cavestalker could have bolstered you here a bit (-0.5). Hindering Opportunist was golden with Prime Underdark Guide's Aid Group ability, but see Elegance below (0.5). The build avoids known cheese and overused optimization suggestions (0.5).Power: 3.5 Factotum 3 is a decent breakpoint if you're just waiting for Brains Over Brawn, but Ranger 4 is a much better breakpoint than 2. Overall, we'll call it a wash (0). The build functions at the same power level throughout an entire adventuring day, rather than relying on nova powers (0.5). The build thrives without an undue emphasis on items, templates, or other add-ons for power (0.5). You said it yourself; you're not an offensive powerhouse. Defensively, your main tactic is RUN AWAY! Aside from that, you're a snack waiting to happen. Utility, though, is where Skitters shines. Unfortunately, it's only one third of the pie (-0.5).Elegance: 3.5 4.5 The build qualifies for all classes taken outside the Secret Ingredient (0.5). Without Combat Reflexes, you don't qualify for Hindering Opportunist (-0.5). I apologize, I missed the note in Tome of Battle that allows Evasive Reflexes to take the place of Combat Reflexes for prerequisites (0.5) The build avoids reliance on questionable interpretations, cross-setting material, or material specifically disallowed from this competition (0.5). Multiclass penalties were avoided, but we've got 2 dips (0).Use of the Secret Ingredient: 5 The build qualifies for the Secret Ingredient and makes use of entry requirements by qualifying for Cavestalker, Prime Underdark Guide, and Keen Eared Scout (0.5). The build completed the Secret Ingredient (0.5). The majority of darkrunner's class features receive some kind of synergy. Slight Build/Spelunking was fun, but the inclusion of Prime Underdark Guide for aiding another on Spelunking skills with the attention they received was great (0.5). Darkrunner cuddles up nicely to Cavestalker and Prime Underdark Guide for your scaly sherpa (0.5).
Ariadne: 16.5 (4.125 average)Originality: 3.5 Christopher Nolan homages aside, I enjoyed the tale of a woman who identified with her captors (0.5). Ranger is the sample entry, but everything else going on here was a good direction. If you had found a more unique chassis than ranger, you would have earned full points (0). I liked the idea of melding into an enemy you've petrified for a Trojan Horse, and I REALLY liked your postmortem interrogation trick (0.5). Planar Touchstone, Shadow Blade w/ Martial Study & Stance, and Earth Devotion w/ a domain that grants more turning or rebuking are all overused optimization suggestions (-0.5).Power: 4.5 Ranger 4 is a widely touted breakpoint, as it gives you a decent array of class features and there's not much else worth sticking around for (0.5). The build functions at the same power level throughout an entire adventuring day, rather than relying on nova powers (0.5). You thrive without items, but without the Dark template Ariadne wouldn't qualify for the SI or have the much-beloved HiPS (0). When it comes to offense, your BAB is low as well as your sources of bonus damage but you've got Stonedeath Strike working for you. The DC for Stonedeath Strike may be too low to stay relevant, but there are plenty of ways to boost that so you've still got something to contribute. Defensively, Stonedeath Assassin really helps in an underground encounter and you've already got HiPS. In terms of utility, you've got plenty to bring to the table. Enjoy your triple crown (0.5).Elegance: 4 The build qualifies for all classes taken outside the Secret Ingredient (0.5). The build qualifies for all feats taken (0.5). We've got cross-setting material since we're using Races of Eberron and Planar Handbook to access a planar touchstone site on Mechanus; Eberron has its own separate cosmology. Also, using Urban Companion to qualify for Darkrunner is a great move, but could cause a much-debated problem if you lose the companion and thus lose your PrC class features. Likewise for what happens to Stonedeath Assassin features if you ever choose to emulate another race, but that seems like less of a possibility (-0.5). The build avoids multi-class penalties and excessive dipping (0.5).Use of the Secret Ingredient: 4.5 The build qualifies for the Secret Ingredient, but doesn't make any special use of entry requirements (0). The build completed the Secret Ingredient (0.5). Most of the class features receive some sort of treatment, and I particularly liked Earth Devotion to create difficult terrain for Cavefighting as well as your postmortem interrogation (0.5). Stonedeath Assassin and Darkrunner go hand-in-hand for the cave-dwelling loner (0.5).
Orion Garranan: 11.5 (2.875 average)Originality: 2 While I appreciate the vignette at the beginning, it didn't give me any insight into who Orion was (-0.5). While we've got factotum here, it's a more significant investment than the others to grab Cunning Surge. Savant splashes are always fun, and you had me looking up Primordial and eneko so good on you (0.5). Nothing mechanically unique was at play here in terms of tricks or feat chains (-0.5). Between Obtain Familiar, Planar Familiar, Imperious Command, & Font of Inspiration, this felt copied and pasted from the Factotum Handbook, just with some Darkrunner added on the end (-0.5).Power: 3.5 Factotum 8 is widely recognized as a great breakpoint for the class, since Cunning Surge is one of the best abilities the class has to offer (0.5). The build functions at the same power level throughout an entire adventuring day, rather than relying on nova powers (0.5). At will invisibility is nice (even at CL 1), but without your race and template combo it goes away (-0.5). Offense isn't this build's strong suit, but defense is easy with at-will Invisibility and you've got utility in spades (0).Elegance: 3 The build qualifies for all classes taken outside the Secret Ingredient (0.5). There is some debate on whether SLAs gained from classes like the factotum's arcane dilettante count as "innate," so you may or may not qualify for Supernatural Transformation. Also, debate rages on whether the factotum's CL is "arcane" even though the word appears in the class feature, so you may or may not qualify for Obtain Familiar (0). While I appreciate your note on skills, in future competitions listing the ranks by level helps show that you meet the prerequisites at the appropriate level, rather than leaving it for the judges to assume. Also, while I love snagging Alertness via a familiar, there's debate as to what happens to your PrC features should your familiar die (-0.5). We only have one dip, but its inclusion causes multiclass penalties (0).Use of the Secret Ingredient: 3 The build qualifies for the Secret Ingredient, but doesn't make any special use of entry requirements (0). The build completed the Secret Ingredient (0.5). Earth Devotion is a great synergy with Cavefighting, but none of the other class features receive more than passing mention (0). Without any insight into Orion's concept, I'm left wondering why he chose the life of a Darkrunner instead of continuing advancement in factotum or savant (-0.5).
Ihlmrhys Do'ar: 16 (4 average)Originality: 4 The divine emissary of an unknown god was an interesting angle (0.5). Taking 12 levels of paladin requires massive moxie, but it's something nobody else was crazy enough to do (0.5). I really liked your use of Noble Heart Paladin to qualify for Darkrunner (but see Elegance below), and Underdark Knight was a perfect choice (0.5). Shadow Blade w/ Martial Stance and Study are frequent recommendations for DEX-heavy characters, and Battle Blessing is a common suggestion in Paladin handbooks (-0.5).Power: 4 Paladin 4 is generally regarded as a breakpoint, but you stay for a full 12 to snag earth glide at will. Nothing else would have been gained by going for more paladin (0.5). The build functions at the same power level throughout an entire adventuring day, rather than relying on nova powers (0.5). The build thrives without an undue emphasis on items, templates, or other add-ons for power (0.5). Offensively, you maintain 4 iterative attacks but your bonus damage is a bit limited. Defensively, you don't have much going on aside from the ability to earth glide. In terms of utility, you said it best yourself--you just needed more skill ranks (-0.5).Elegance: 4 Without 1 rank in Knowledge: religion, you don't qualify to take Noble Heart paladin sublevels (as per CoV pg 34) (-0.5). The build qualifies for all feats taken (0.5). The build avoids reliance on questionable rules interpretations, cross-setting material, or material specifically disallowed from this competition (0.5). The build avoids multi-class penalties and excessive dipping (0.5).Use of the Secret Ingredient: 4 The build qualifies for the Secret Ingredient, but doesn't make any special use of entry requirements (0). While only 8 levels of the Secret Ingredient were taken, I agree with your rationale (0.5). Earth Devotion partners well with Cavefighting, and a few of your class features received some minor treatment. However, there were still a few that felt largely ignored (0). "Paying it forward" by becoming a Darkrunner was interesting (0.5).
Adlib: 16 16.5 (4 4.125 average)Originality: 4 While I appreciate your approach, especially given your entry's name, I didn't really get a [mental picture] of his/her [identity]. While that may have been part of the point, I was also [verb] by the inclusion of metagame terms. It read as half tongue-in-cheek, half something you didn't want to include (0). Underfolk and Factotum splash were both repeated, but the skillmonkey focus of human paragon and exemplar gain back some points here (0). I've never actually seen anyone use the "Destiny" feat chain, so good on you. Also, I was glad to see the Escape Artist skill tricks get some love (0.5). The build avoids known cheese and overused optimization suggestions (0.5).Power: 3.5 Factotum 3 is an acceptable breakpoint if your focus is the skills (and for you, it was) (0.5). Heroic/Fearless/Protected Destiny are cool but each only function 1/day. While everything else functions well throughout the day, sinking 3 feats into once-daily abilities will leave you feeling bored at times (-0.5). The build thrives without an undue emphasis on items, templates, or other add-ons for power (0.5). Offensively, you lack a fourth iterative attack or reliable bonus damage. Defensively, you've got a few options from Insightful Reflexes and your Escape Artist focus, but I still wonder how you'd hold up in a straight fight. Utility is where you really shine, though (0).Elegance: 5 The build qualifies for all classes taken outside the Secret Ingredient (0.5). The build qualifies for all feats taken (0.5). The build avoids reliance on questionable interpretations, cross-setting material, or material specifically disallowed from this competition (0.5). The build avoids multi-class penalties and excessive dipping (0.5).Use of the Secret Ingredient: 3.5 4 The build qualifies for the Secret Ingredient and makes use of entry requirements by maxing skills and using them to qualify for skill tricks and Exemplar (0.5). The build completed the Secret Ingredient (0.5). There was no write-up on how you choose to use your class abilities. I can see that the Init boost was helped out by Improved Init and Brains over Brawn, and you provide some high skill numbers, but I don't know what else you're doing with the build unless you tell me upfront. For example, if I was playing this build I'd focus on Lend Talent's ability to help my friends with their spelunking skills, but that didn't get a mention here (0). It felt like the only reason this one took Darkrunner was to fill in a blank. [S]Why wasn't this factotum 11/exemplar 9 or factotum 8/human paragon 2/exemplar 10 (-0.5)? Mechanically, Darkrunner fits for a master of underground exploring and diplomacy. Conceptually, though, it was still little more than "the character happened to meet some Darkrunners and join up with them," so we'll call it a wash on the theme (0).
Graima Venari: 15 (3.75 average)Originality: 3.5 While it was just a short snippet, I dug the mysterious abberation hunter (0.5). Whisper Gnome, lurk, and warlock were unique this round, but we had another foe hunter and used some levels in ranger (our sample chassis) (0). It's been a while since I've seen someone take feats for crossbow specialization--it was a fun surprise (0.5). Darkness/Blend Into Shadows has been cropping up in warlock discussions for a while--for a good reason, but it's still hardly original. Knowledge Devotion is always entered into play as well (-0.5).Power: 3.5 Jack of all trades, master of none. Ranger 4 is a much better breakpoint than 2. Lurk seemed tacked onto the build for sneak attack alone, and more investment in warlock would have paid off with additional invocations and Eldritch Blast (-0.5). The build functions at the same power level throughout an entire adventuring day, rather than relying on nova powers (0.5). The build thrives without an undue emphasis on items, templates, or other add-ons for power (0.5). Offensively, "death by a thousand nicks" in your words works only if you hit often and for significant enough damage. You've only got 3 attacks with a lowish BAB. While you have some bonus damage, it's mainly against aberrations…versatility's the name of the game. Defensively, though, your instadarkness sniping trick is always a good one. In terms of utility, you make a competent sneak, so we've got 2 out of 3 (0).Elegance: 4.5 The build qualifies for all classes taken outside the Secret Ingredient (0.5). The build qualifies for all feats taken (0.5). The build avoids reliance on questionable rules interpretations, cross-setting material, or material specifically disallowed from this competition (0.5). Multiclass penalties are avoided, but we have 3 dips (0).Use of the Secret Ingredient: 3.5 The build qualifies for the Secret Ingredient and makes use of entry requirements by qualifying for Foe Hunter and Knowledge Devotion (0.5). The build completed the Secret Ingredient (0.5). Rather than just looking for mention of how class features are USED, I'm looking for specific treatment on how you SYNERGIZED them alongside other parts of the build to make the whole uniquely strong (-0.5). It makes sense for someone running around underground hunting aberrations to go Darkrunner, but I kept finding myself wondering why you didn't just go full Foe Hunter (0).
Roy: 15 (3.75 average)Originality: 2.5 I've seen things you people wouldn't believe, and now I've seen your Roy Batty homage. I like that rather than relying on the pop culture allusion alone, you mixed it with a story of heretic dwarves on the run (or is it on the dig?) in order to add a different level to it. It's a shame that one day it will be lost in time like tears in rain (0.5). A dwarven ranger was a repeated entry in the style of the sample character, but the inclusion of warblade and Deepstone Sentinel brought something unique to the table (0). Nothing mechanically unique was at play here in terms of tricks or feats (-0.5). I'm surprised I haven't seen Kevin Spacey, because we've got all The Usual Suspects for an ubercharger build here (-0.5).Power: 4 Your timing of your warblade and PrC level saved you here, allowing you to snag the handful of high-level maneuvers you were after (0.5). The build functions at the same power level throughout an entire adventuring day, rather than relying on nova powers (0.5). The build thrives without an undue emphasis on items, templates, or other add-ons for power (0.5). Like most uberchargers, you're built for offense and offense alone. Defense is still lacking (especially since you mention decent AC but also giving that up for bonus damage via Shock Trooper), and while you've got some utility it's not enough to stay relevant at high levels (-0.5).Elegance: 4.5 The build qualifies for all classes taken outside the Secret Ingredient (0.5). The build qualifies for all feats taken (0.5). The build avoids reliance on questionable rules interpretations, cross-setting material, or material specifically disallowed from this competition (0.5). We only have one dip, but it incurs multiclass penalties (0).Use of the Secret Ingredient: 4 The build qualifies for the Secret Ingredient, but doesn't make any special use of entry requirements (0). The build completed the Secret Ingredient (0.5). I really liked your use of Deepstone Sentinel to create difficult terrain for use with Cavefighting, but most of the other class features received passing mention at best (0). I like the idea that the darkrunner abilities aren't just for fighting aberrations, but staying out of reach of the "typical" dwarves (0.5).
Esmar Tuek: 14.5 15 (3.625 3.75 average)Originality: 3.5 We started with an interesting idea--a smuggler who moves shipments through the Underdark. However, I didn't care for the metagame references the backstory devolved into (0). We had another foe hunter, another rogue, and some dwarves. Sadly, choosing gold dwarf wasn't enough of a variant to make this build stand out (-0.5). Gnome Tunnel Acrobatics was a fitting and unique selection. False Pretense was also a new one for me, and I loved the use of the Golden Hand sublevel to snag favored enemy and Track (0.5). The build avoids known cheese and overused optimization suggestions (0.5).Power: 4 Since you traded away your sneak attack, bailing on martial rogue isn't much of an issue (0.5). The build functions at the same power level throughout an entire adventuring day, rather than relying on nova powers (0.5). The build thrives without an undue emphasis on items, templates, or other add-ons for power (0.5). Offensively, we only have 3 attacks and a non-significant source of bonus damage against all but favored enemies. Defensively, full plate and tumbling won't keep you safe. In terms of utility, you could use a bit more versatility (-0.5).Elegance: 3 Aboleths speak their own language, and since you can't speak it you don't qualify for foe hunter My apologies for misreading the hated foe as "one creature" instead of "one creature type." This puts aside the language issue. However, since the build fails to qualify for Weapon Focus at the level presented, you don't qualify for Foe Hunter (-0.5). Without a BAB of +1 at first level, you don't qualify for Weapon Focus. Also, Undermountain Tactics requires a BAB of +6 so you don't qualify anyway at level 4 Being a dwarf means you need not meet the other requirements of Undermountain Tactics and thus qualify, but you've still got the Weapon Focus issue (-0.5). The build avoids reliance on questionable rules interpretations, cross-setting material, or material specifically disallowed from this competition (0.5). The build avoids multi-class penalties and excessive dipping (0.5).Use of the Secret Ingredient: 4 4.5 The build qualifies for the Secret Ingredient and makes use of entry requirements by qualifying for Knowledge Devotion and Gnome Tunnel Acrobatics (0.5). The build completed the Secret Ingredient (0.5). While I liked the attention paid to Deepsong's Will boost, other class features received only passing mention instead of highlighting any special synergy. While the mentions were quick, you did mention the class features and their synergies. Next time, just be sure to give us a bit more (0 0.5). Darkrunner makes sense for a smuggler--especially when you highlighted that survival was about more than stealth. However, I'm still wondering why you chose Darkrunner over more Foe Hunter (0).
Creb Covenant: 15.5 (3.875 average)Originality: 4 I dug the idea of a boy who got a second chance from a devil looking to the forces of good for a third chance (0.5). The oft-underused spirit shaman mixes with the equally underused Bearcaster and we add a Hellbred cherry on top? The points, just take them (0.5). Nothing mechanically unique was at play here in terms of tricks or feats (-0.5). The build avoids known cheese and overused optimization suggestions (0.5).Power: 3.5 A full caster build going into a non-casting PrC is always going to need a darn good reason to give up high-level spells. I just didn't see one here, and you need one twice as much to give a good reason to leave either Spirit Shaman or Sentinel of Bharrai since they both give decent class features. Say it with me, people: Cavalry. Of. Bears (-0.5). The build functions at the same power level throughout an entire adventuring day, rather than relying on nova powers (0.5). The build thrives without an undue emphasis on items, templates, or other add-ons for power (0.5). Spirit Shaman's versatile casting mechanic allows you to change out your spells known on a daily basis so you can always tailor your selection for offense, defense, or utility. However, you're capped at 5th level spells so you may find yourself struggling for relevance at higher levels. Lastly, it would have been nice to see a sample loadout of spells to get an idea of what route you're taking (0).Elegance: 4.5 The build qualifies for all classes taken outside the Secret Ingredient (0.5). The build qualifies for all feats taken (0.5). A minor questionable interpretation--you mention Sentinel of Bharrai's nature-friendly spells allowing you to protect innocents, but it only allows you to deal nonlethal damage to plants and animals. Anyone else is still taking lethal damage absent another option (like Sculpt Spell) to exclude them from your spells (0). The build avoids multi-class penalties and excessive dipping (0.5).Use of the Secret Ingredient: 3.5 The build qualifies for the Secret Ingredient and makes use of entry requirements by qualifying for Ocular Spell (0.5). The build completed the Secret Ingredient (0.5). I liked the use of Quick Recovery w/ Stonewalking to mitigate the risk as well as creating difficult terrain via spells to activate Cavefighting and the attention you paid to Will saves for Deepsong. However, the other class features felt largely ignored or received only passing mention (0). I didn't see the thematic connection to Darkrunner, even with the idea of going back to the caves where Creb nearly died. It just seems like a large departure for me (-0.5).
Delehdas: 15 (3.75 average)Originality: 4.5 The idea of someone attempting to reclaim lost legends about the surface was an interesting take on a Darkrunner--almost moving in reverse (0.5). Underfolk ranger was repeated, but bard and horizon walker took this build enough in its own direction to earn back some points (0). Obscure Lore was a new one for me, and I thought Daylight Adaptation was a fitting thematic touch for when Delehdas reached the surface (0.5). The build avoids known cheese and overused optimization suggestions (0.5).Power: 3 Ranger 4 could have snagged you some fun class features, while sticking in Bard until 6 would have netted you the terrific Suggestion ability and beefed up your casting (-0.5). The build functions at the same power level throughout an entire adventuring day, rather than relying on nova powers (0.5). The build thrives without an undue emphasis on items, templates, or other add-ons for power (0.5). While you maintain four iterative attacks, you're not really doing much damage with any of them. Defensively, your best bet is to avoid a fight since outside the Secret Ingredient you don't have many ways to survive one. Utility is where this build shines, but it doesn't cover the absence of offense and defense (-0.5).Elegance: 4.5 The build qualifies for all classes taken outside the Secret Ingredient (0.5). The build takes Endurance twice for some reason, but other than that you're looking good (0). The build avoids reliance on questionable rules interpretations, cross-setting material, or material specifically disallowed from this competition (0.5). The build avoids multi-class penalties and excessive dipping (0.5).Use of the Secret Ingredient: 3 The build qualifies for the Secret Ingredient, but doesn't make any special use of entry requirements (0). The build completed the Secret Ingredient (0.5). The class features of the Secret Ingredient don't receive any particular treatment on how they've been synergized with other class features (-0.5). While I really dig the concept of a darkrunner in search of the surface, success on his quest means that some of Delehdas' class features become useless once he goes above ground in his last 5 levels. Because of this, I wonder why he would continue as a Darkrunner instead of hopping to Horizon Walker or something else sooner (0).
Amaljss Myund: 16 (4 average)Originality: 3.5 We'll leave the maternal issues for a qualified psychoanalyst, but I liked the idea of a hero who's really just a pawn (0.5). Sample entry chassis was used, with a sprinkling of scout that was repeated elsewhere. You're more of a drow than the lesser drow, but it doesn't differentiate Amaljss enough to earn back any points (-0.5). I really liked seeing Favored Power Attack and Improved Favored Enemy put to use here (0.5). The build manages to avoid overused optimization suggestions for the most part, aside from Swift Hunter (0).Power: 3.5 Ranger 4 and Scout 3 are both decent breakpoints, and Swift Hunter made sure that you got a boost to each (0.5). The build functions at the same power level throughout an entire adventuring day, rather than relying on nova powers (0.5). The LA is a steep price to pay, and without it you lose a lot of your bells and whistles (-0.5). Offensively, you've got a few sources of bonus damage but your to-hit suffers for it. The fourth iterative attack is not preserved, and while you get extra attacks from iTWF, they're at a penalty to hit. Defensively, you've got a few options available to you like Uncanny Dodge. Utility is where this build shines, with maxed ranks in a bevy of helpful skills (0).Elegance: 4.5 The build qualifies for all classes taken outside the Secret Ingredient (0.5). The build qualifies for all feats taken (0.5). Not knowing what weapons you're using for TWF is a concern. If you're using light weapons, they can't be used to Power Attack. If you're using two non-light one-handed weapons, you're taking a penalty to attack. Either way, you're trading away something not mentioned in your write-up. Also, a source list is nice to have so one doesn't have to do as much book diving. (0). The build avoids multi-class penalties and excessive dipping (0.5).Use of the Secret Ingredient: 4.5 The build qualifies for the Secret Ingredient and makes use of entry requirements by maxing all required skills (0.5). The build completed the Secret Ingredient (0.5). I really liked your focus on favored enemy along with your exceptional darkvision and how you've got a few different boosts to initiative working together. However, the other class features were largely ignored. Instead of providing such an in-depth write-up of your base class features, try doing something similar next time for the class features of the Secret Ingredient (0). This underground aberration hunter made sense to me as a Darkstalker (0.5).
Rizzo: 14.5 (3.625 average)Originality: 4 Here we've got the standard "you killed my father, prepare to die" trope going on. I would have appreciated a little more texture being added to it--as such, all I know about this dude is that his mom's dead and he hates umberhulks (0). We had another scout, but surprisingly no other humans. The inclusion of dragonborn was unique here, as was the use of the warrior NPC class (though we'll talk about that more later) (0). Tunnel Fighting and Undermountain Tactics (I think) were fun inclusions in this round (0.5). The build avoids known cheese and overused optimization suggestions (0.5).Power: 4 Scout 4 was a decent breakpoint, and warrior provides next to nothing in terms of advancement, so going Darkrunner was a good move (0.5). The build functions at the same power level throughout an entire adventuring day, rather than relying on nova powers (0.5). The build thrives without an undue emphasis on items, templates, or other add-ons for power (0.5). In terms of offense, you maintain 4 iterative attacks but the bonus damage is lacking at higher levels. Defensively, you don't have much protecting you. In terms of utility, you've got a handful of useful skills but I would have liked to have seen more (-0.5).Elegance: 3.5 The build qualifies for all classes taken outside the Secret Ingredient (0.5). Warriors don't gain bonus feats; fighters do. In exchange, they have a fixed skill list. Assuming that you were going for warrior as presented, you don't qualify for your 4 bonus feats. Also, I couldn't find Tunnel Fighter--were you referring to one of the options provided by the feat Undermountain Tactics (-0.5)? Since the warrior used was the generic class which does gain bonus feats, the build qualifies for all feats taken (0.5). The build avoids reliance on questionable rules interpretations, cross-setting material, or material specifically disallowed from this competition (0.5). Not only are you using an alternate system in generic classes, your interpretation of them is questionable in taking a generic class alongside a standard class (-0.5). Dips were avoided, but multiclass penalties were not (0).Use of the Secret Ingredient: 3 The build qualifies for the Secret Ingredient and makes use of entry requirements by maxing all required skills and qualifying for Undermountain Tactics (I think) (0.5). The build completed the Secret Ingredient (0.5). Rather than a sentence about when you use the class features of the Secret Ingredient, next time try explaining what you've done to synergize the class features of the Secret Ingredient with things going on elsewhere in the build. For example, another scout in this competition highlighted how the Initiative boost from Battle Fortitude partners with the one the Secret Ingredient provides from Cavefighting. If you don't tell us, assume we don't know. Also, the Tunnel Fighting feat is redundant with the Secret Ingredient's class features (-0.5). Why bother to become a darkrunner instead of a foe hunter or something else themed around killing them umberhulks (-0.5)?
Steven: 11 (2.75 average)Originality: 2.5 I don't really get a concept of who Steven is from this backstory, save to say that he's got a bit of ADHD and his parents tried to bury him in a church ;). I think you may have been going for "interest" instead of "inter" there, but the word choice has no bearing on your score (0). I was on the fence with this one because while cleric/swashbuckler came out of left field, we had a splash of rogue used elsewhere and another dwarven subrace working against us. The real make-or-break was trapsmith; nobody else used it so by my current criteria you're getting points. However, that PrC is becoming the Soup of the Day around these parts (0.5). Nothing mechanically unique was at play here in terms of tricks or feats (-0.5). Staggering Strike, Trapsmith, and dipping cleric for devotion feats (especially Knowledge Devotion and Travel Devotion) are all handbook staples (-0.5).Power: 3 Swashbuckler 3 is one of the best breakpoints for the class, and the other base classes used were just splashes. You got out after getting what you came for (0.5). While your trapsmith casting is great, the problem with that PrC has always been how limited it is (-0.5). We're relying on 4 stat boosting items at least. Without one for WIS, you gain no cleric casting. You're also relying on access to a Tome for INT boosting, which may be rare (-0.5). In terms of offense, your to-hit is low but you've got the whole TWF feat tree and haste working for you with some decent bonus damage and Staggering Strike. Defensively, Arcane Stunt (blur) is one of my favorite early-level tricks that maintains usefulness. On utility, you've got skills for days. Congrats on your triple crown (0.5).Elegance: 2.5 The build qualifies for all classes taken outside the Secret Ingredient (0.5). Without 4 ranks in Spellcraft, you don't qualify for practiced spellcaster (-0.5). Please be sure to provide a source list in future rounds (0). We have two dips, as well as incurring multiclassing penalties (-0.5).Use of the Secret Ingredient: 3 The build qualifies for the Secret Ingredient and makes use of entry requirements by using Knowledge Devotion and qualifying for Trapsmith (0.5). The build completed the Secret Ingredient (0.5). I liked your use of cleric with Earth Devotion and the Swashbuckler's Insightful Strike to get 2*INT to damage while fighting in difficult terrain you've created. If you had spent time trying to optimize the other class features instead of lamenting how poor the class is, you could have gained some serious points here. We know it's a bad PrC; that's why it was selected for Iron Chef in the first place (-0.5). Darkrunner was barely a blip on the radar in your backstory, which made it hard to see why you were taking the class except for the fact that you had to this round (-0.5).

Your Standings
After Two Judges, Before Disputes
EntryPlaceTotalAverage
SkittersGold34.754.34375
Creb CovenantSilver334.125
AriadneBronze32.254.03125
Amaljss MyundFourth31.753.96875
Esmar TuekFourth31.753.96875
AdlibSixth31.53.9375
RoySixth313.875
Ihlmrhys Do'arEighth303.75
DelehdasNinth29.753.71875
Graima VenariTenth28.753.59375
RyldEleventh283.5
RizzoTwelfth253.125
StevenThirteenth232.875
Orion GarrananFourteenth222.75
Richard B RiddickFifteenth17.52.1875

dysprosium

2014-06-10, 09:49 AM

More scores are always appreciated.

Thank you OMG PONIES and I apologize for not thanking Rama earlier.

Sian

2014-06-10, 09:58 AM

While it may not matter on the total score due to other things Ponies, i suggest looking at the same sidebar (p150 of Races of Destiny) for Riddick as i suggested to Rama for Adlib

Kuulvheysoon

2014-06-10, 10:10 AM

PONIES, Rama, thanks for judging!
While it may not matter on the total score due to other things Ponies, i suggest looking at the same sidebar (p150 of Races of Destiny) for Riddick as i suggested to Rama for Adlib

If you're talking about the optional variant, it's still just that: Optional.

And what sort of contest would this be without disputes, eh?

To Rama:

Thanks for nothing, just kidding, thanks for judging.:smallsmile: I couple small issues.

You state:
"You don’t qualify for Human Paragon, since you’re not human. I get the evolved from humans fluff, but I’m not seeing anything that mechanically allows an underfolk to qualify as human."

Response:
Races of Destiny pg. 110 Under racial traits is specifically says, 1st bullet "• Humanoid (human): Underfolk are humanoid creatures with the human subtype."

You state:
"(Note that Human Paragon and the Destiny feats have not been factored into your power score, due to Elegance concerns noted below)."

Response:
Given the above can you please revisit the Power scoring?

You state:
"Mechanically, I don’t see a ton of synergy with the SI abilities. They’re there, and they’ll be used from time to time, but the other elements of the build aren’t really enhancing them. +.50 points

The SI really doesn’t fit the feel here. As you noted, you’re going for a paragon/destiny feel to the character, which really doesn’t blend well with the SI’s explorer/scout/guide elements. It seems like several other things would fit much better in its place. +.00 points"

Response:
Factotum's Brains over Brawns is the single best addition to the SI, furthermore all of the skill tricks further the benefits of the SI, and the Exemplar's skill mastery further benefits the remaining skills that the SI utilizes to match the cavefighting and spelunking benefits. Due to the odd wording on tunnelport there was no way to synergize those without some very questionable rules interpretations.

I state "This character is supposed to the paragon/exemplar of darkrunner", Factotums are explorers of dungeons and the Underdark is one giant dungeon, Human Paragaons are "explorers, and others who push the boundaries of knowledge and experience", while Exemplar is maybe iffy, but it's ability to make the Underdark safe with the skill mastery is just undeniable. This build mechanically is about taking 10s on skill checks and maximizing intelligence, and the SI is one of the best classes for taking 10s.
Think you're judging a bit harsh on a protential non-qualifying of Foe Hunter. What I'm stating in the build is that from how i read it (language of the 'favored enemy' as specified as Favored enemy demands), it only count if the FE have a racial Langauge. Your example with Elf doesn't work since Favored Enemy Humanoid demands a subspecies, Elves, which in turn have a racial language, while, at the same time, I also note that if seen otherwise the Character have enough Int to go book diving after a racial aberration language, but to the best of my knowledge there aren't a language that all aberrations use as racial language.

That said I find it slightly humourous that you state that the build is strong offensive early on, petering out later on, my personal opinion is the opposite, that it doesn't really start rolling till some time into the build, relying on defensive abilites, more specificly not being spotted and attacked in the first place, early on. As for packing in some more whallop, wasn't able to pack more than the 2d6 rancor, 1d6 sneak attack and ½dex from crossbow sniper (and +int from Improved Cavefighting and whatever gained from Knowledge Devotion).

That said at the same time i don't feel you honor my defensive enough by forcing all my opponents to (via known op Darkstalker) roll Spot against my Hide which, while nude at level 20, has a +23(ranks) +4(Race) +4(Small) +6(Dex) +10(Chameleon Power) at a total of +47, or +51 (with +2 Gnome Favored Enemy and +2 from Aberration Lore) against all Aberrations. Unless I'm rolling a 1 I'm highly doubtful that anything not optimized for spotting is able to beat this.
Thanks for judging Rama!

I understand most of your deductions and according to the 98% less disputes i will only dispute 2 :P

Concerning incomplete submission: Do you really need a copy paste skill list of all skills in 3.5 with a 1 next to it to judge my build? I feel like the deduction is really harsh. (Also procrastination is a thing ;))

Concerning power:

In summary, decent offense very early that rapidly tails off; minimal defense; minimal utility. +.50 points
Pretty much your only significant trick comes from your template invisibility

Only significant trick:
Minimal utility (mentioned in your judging "as presented") really puzzles me. Factotum class features alone is more utility than pretty much every other class. Max UMD and a familiar able to use wands as well is perfect utility. Skills pretty much as you need them (literally you can do anything and distribute a LOT of skill points if you need to fill a certain role). Conferring a listen bonus to up to INT Bonus people within 5 feet (which btw counters darkstalker pretty much as long as someone has scent, tremorsense or something similar).

I looked over your judgings of the other dishes and you seem to compare their offense, defense and utility (or I misinterpeted that completely). I'd really like to know how you came to the conclusion that my build has minimal utility compared to other builds.

Thanks again, best regards,
Orion

Rama:

Thanks for judging, and I understand about the below issue, I just wanted to clarify something.

You don’t qualify for Foe Hunter, since you don’t specify that you speak the language of your hated enemy (aboleths). I know it’s nitpicky, but it’s a listed requirement of the class that needs to be addressed
Since
Aboleths speak their own language, as well as Undercommon and Aquan., Undercommon would count and since it's an underdark setting I figured it was overly redundant to list Undercommon as the base language.
I recognize your concern over Ariadne not qualifying for Stonedeath Assassin while not in a goblinoid form, and that's precisely why I made the build under the assumption that Ariadne would be in goblinoid form at all times, as explained by the goblin upbringing in the story, and not capitalizing on changeling disguise capabilities. I apologize for not making this clearer
First thank you to both Rama and OMG Ponies for judging!

OMG Ponies: Skitters has the Evasive Reflexes feat from Tome of Battle which can be used as a substitute for Combat Reflexes to qualify for other feats. The rest of the commentary was right on the money.

Thank you
@OMG_PONIES: While not expressly listed in total, Creb's preferred spell types are clearly indicated in the writeup; he favors spells that shape the battlefield, and summoning spells, as they best suit his role of melee support/guide. The writeup also specifically indicates Mass Lesser Vigor and SNA IV (Unicorn, Xorn) as good choices for him to grant some in-combat healing/mobility that both matters, and isn't a poor choice due to action economy.

OMG PONIES

2014-06-10, 10:52 AM

Man, less than an hour? Must be some kind of new record...

While it may not matter on the total score due to other things Ponies, i suggest looking at the same sidebar (p150 of Races of Destiny) for Riddick as i suggested to Rama for Adlib

As has been addressed by the Chairman, the optional sidebar to include "humanlike" races in things that list "human" as a prerequisite is at the discretion of the DM. If Deep Imaskari are humanoids with the human subtype I'd be happy to review, but I didn't see anything in Underdark or any other source indicating that. Scoring stands.

First thank you to both Rama and OMG Ponies for judging!

OMG Ponies: Skitters has the Evasive Reflexes feat from Tome of Battle which can be used as a substitute for Combat Reflexes to qualify for other feats. The rest of the commentary was right on the money.

I apologize; I missed the note in Tome of Battle. +1 Elegance, score has been updated.

@OMG_PONIES: While not expressly listed in total, Creb's preferred spell types are clearly indicated in the writeup; he favors spells that shape the battlefield, and summoning spells, as they best suit his role of melee support/guide. The writeup also specifically indicates Mass Lesser Vigor and SNA IV (Unicorn, Xorn) as good choices for him to grant some in-combat healing/mobility that both matters, and isn't a poor choice due to action economy.

I did not miss the reference to those two specific spells in your write-up or the fact that you also favor battlefield control spells. The problem is that "battlefield control" covers a wide array of spells--some fantastic, and some not worth the paper they're printed on. Knowing which ones you had selected would have given me a better picture. For a Spirit Shaman who can retrieve different spells each day, this is less of an issue since if you pick a stinker on day 1 you can switch to a gem on Day 2, but a sample still would have helped. As is, I don't know what you're using 10/12 spells retrieved per day on, including your highest level spell. I don't want to assume anything when I'm judging.

However, the comment about spell selection was precisely that--a comment. The main reason I gave a 0 for that criterion instead of a +0.5 is that Creb doesn't receive any spells higher than 5th level (and even then he can only retrieve 1/day). At higher levels of play, that coupled with his hamstrung caster level could mean that even the best low-level gem doesn't have sticking power against Spell Resistance, dispel checks, Globes of Invulnerability, and the like. Scoring stands.

Herr Chairman, were those the only ones for me (at least, so far)? I couldn't tell if all of the others were for Rama or not.

Tim Proctor

2014-06-10, 11:00 AM

While it may not matter on the total score due to other things Ponies, i suggest looking at the same sidebar (p150 of Races of Destiny) for Riddick as i suggested to Rama for Adlib
I agree, but more over, "deep Imaskari into a human subrace adapted to life underground." If they are a subrace of human they are as human as a gold dwarf is a dwarf. Text over Table so just because Human (Humanoid) isn't listed in the table they are certainly human.

Thanks for judging everyone.:smallsmile:

ALSO if people inputting disputes can put which judge they are in response to, that would be super helpful.

Kuulvheysoon

2014-06-10, 11:38 AM

I agree, but more over, "deep Imaskari into a human subrace adapted to life underground." If they are a subrace of human they are as human as a gold dwarf is a dwarf. Text over Table so just because Human (Humanoid) isn't listed in the table they are certainly human.

Thanks for judging everyone.:smallsmile:

ALSO if people inputting disputes can put which judge they are in response to, that would be super helpful.

Mind you, they were humans who were all altered by an epic spell. Elans are just humans altered by a psionic ritual; should that give them the [human] subtype too?

The point is, these competitions assume that a DM doesn't rule for (or against) you in matters of unclear wording. When it comes down to it, RAW, Deep Imaskari just aren't quite human enough.

Tim Proctor

2014-06-10, 11:46 AM

Mind you, they were humans who were all altered by an epic spell. Elans are just humans altered by a psionic ritual; should that give them the [human] subtype too?

The point is, these competitions assume that a DM doesn't rule for (or against) you in matters of unclear wording. When it comes down to it, RAW, Deep Imaskari just aren't quite human enough.
I thought that text trumped over table, and since the text lists them specifically as a 'subrace' which does have a very clear defined value that would take precedence over any ambiguity. I don't see anything that specifically says Elans are a 'subrace' of humans, so I would agree that Elans are not human.

Muggins

2014-06-10, 11:51 AM

Tim Proctor

2014-06-10, 11:58 AM

Oh, a quick note to my fellow judges: Rizzo takes levels in the generic Warrior class from Unearthed Arcana, as referenced in his sources section. He's not using the Warrior NPC class (as OMG_PONIES assumes)* or the Fighter class (as Rama assumes)*, so some of your comments are off. On the other hand, he's using a variant rule from Unearthed Arcana which would probably be considered cheesy, unfair and at least partially illegal.

I don't think we've ever had someone use one of the generic classes before. Since this is such a special occasion, what should the ruling be on whether the generic classes can be mixed with non-core classes? The generic class rules explicitly ban the use of classes from the Player's Handbook, but not any of the base classes (such as Scout) from outside the core rules (because those other books hadn't been released).

*I'm not using 'assumes' in an accusatory way here. After all, I was caught a bit off-guard too.
"If you use these generic classes, you shouldn't also use the standard character classes (or variants of those classes). You can still include prestige classes, if you wish to add that level of complexity to your game, but you may have to tweak some prestige class prerequisites that include class features not available to these classes."

I read 'standard classes' on the SRD so I'm assuming that is what it was errata'd to. I would say it is 'questionable rules interpretation' because the word "shouldn't". I would say that as it is now, it is just 'questionable rules interpretation'. I don't see anything that makes it outright (game) illegal, just a probably not a good idea.

If the chairman wants to throw those classes into the contest illegal, that is a different issue all together. I would actually think that would be a good idea, because the mix-and-match for abilities, saves, etc. makes it rather easy to qualify for just about anything.

Muggins

2014-06-10, 01:21 PM

Judging Criteria
I will be judging in four categories; Originality, Power, Elegance and Use of the Secret Ingredient. Each category will have a starting score of 3, with case-by-case modifications made to a minimum score of 1 and a maximum score of 5 per category. As a result, the total scores will be between 5 and 20 points.

The scoring method used is derived from OMG_PONIES', as I found his criteria to be personally agreeable and rather similar to my own, previously ad-hoc scoring system.
+0.5 for good fluff, +0 for barebones bluff, -0.5 for no fluff.
+0.25 for per unique class or race, -0.25 for per repeated class or race. Maximum of +0.5 and -0.5
+0.5 for unique build components or tactics, -0.5 for common components or tactics.
+0.5 for avoidance of cheese and overused optimisation tricks, -0.5 for the inverse.
+0.5 for being augmented by levels of the Secret Ingredient, and -0.5 for being weakened by levels of the Secret Ingredient. (eg. whether continuation in other classes would've been superior to levels in the Secret Ingredient, whether the other classes are left at decent breakpoints)
+0.5 for all-day adventuring capabilities, -0.5 for a reliance on nova powers or a single trick.
+0.5 for having little reliance on items and equipment, -0.5 for being over-reliant.
+0.5 for being effective both in and out of combat, +0 for being proficient in one, -0.5 for failing to function well in either.
-1 per flaw taken, as per the contest rules.
+0.5 for qualifying for all classes other than the secret ingredient, -0.5 for failing to qualify.
+0.5 for qualifying for all feats, -0.5 for failing to qualify.
+0.5 for no setting mixing, no questionable rulings and no miscellaneous building errors. -0.5 for the inverse.
+0.5 for avoiding multiclassing penalties and dipping, +0 for suffering from one of these, -0.5 for suffering from both.
+0.5 for qualifying for the SI and using its prerequisites somewhere else, +0 for just qualifying. Failing to qualify earns an instant failure in this category.
+0.5 for completing the secret ingredient, +0 for failing to complete the secret ingredient but justifying it (as in, how taking fewer levels makes the build a better SI), -0.5 for failing to finish the secret ingredient.
+0.5 for providing attention and focus on the SI's abilities while synergising other abilities, +0 for just one, -0.5 for providing neither.
+0.5 for "selling" the build in terms of race, classes and tactics, such that it feels like the SI (i.e. presentation). -0.5 for failing to do so.
Disputes are welcome.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Ryld: 11.5/20
Originality: 2/5
+0.5: I enjoyed the stort of a once-thrall trying to find her sense of self in the harsh, lonely realm of the underdark.
-0.5: Lesser Tiefling was a unique choice, but all of your class choices were seen elsewhere.
-0.5: Nothing mechanically unique was used here.
-0.5: The build feels like a rather standard Swift Hunter build, albeit with the addition of Darkrunner.

Power: 4/5
-0.5: More levels in Ranger or Scout would've been better for a Swift Hunter build, but the real killer is that more levels in Cavestalker would've replicated most of the Secret Ingredient class features that you care about.
+0.5: You can function throughout the day without being overly reliant on limited-use abilities.
+0.5: The build isn't overly reliant on items or equipment, and only truly requires a bow (which she can even craft herself) in order to fight.
+0.5: You're rather competent in combat and have a smattering of points in scouting and movement skills. Overall, not bad.

Elegance: 2.5/5
+0.5: You qualify for non-SI classes and class components, such as Cavestalker and the Arcane Hunter ACF.
-0.5: You don't actually qualify for three of your feats. You don't qualify for Fiendish Bloodline from Dragon Compendium because you can't cast arcane spells, you don't qualify for Outsider Wings because you don't have the Fiendish Bloodline feat from Races of Faerun, and you don't qualify for Flyby Attack because you don't have the wings from Outsider Wings.
-0.5: As mentioned above, you incorrectly reference the Fiendish Bloodline feat from Dragon Compendium when the correct feat (which is wholly unrelated) is found in Races of Faerun. You still wouldn't have qualified for either of them, though, because you don't meet their respective Will save requirements. As an aside, your skill points are also weird; you're missing a skill point at Drow Fighter 1 and Scout 2, and you've got two extra skill points at Cavestalker 1 (lastly, you're missing Move Silently ranks at level 1).
+0: You've got levels in five classes, and you only take one of them (the Secret Ingredient) beyond third level. You also jump around a lot, even though you could've just as easily avoided multiclassing penalties by leveling each of them at once.

Use of the Secret Ingredient: 3/5
+0.5: The build qualifies for the Secret Ingredient, then uses the Track and skill prerequisites to qualify for Cavestalker.
+0.5: You complete all ten levels of the Secret Ingredient.
-0.5: You make no real effort to synergise or focus on the qualities of the Secret Ingredient, to the point that you acquire an ability (flight) which distances you from the movement-based abilities of the build (as well as its Tremorsense and Improved Cavefighting abilities).
-0.5: The build feels like a Swift Hunter build, not a Darkrunner build, and everything you wanted from Darkrunner could've just been replicated by the Cavestalker class.
Richard B. Riddick: 8.25/20
Originality: 2.75/5
-0.5: You don't give me any fluff to work with. I would've liked to have known something about this planeshopping Darkrunner.
+0.5: Factotum and Fighter were seen elsewhere, but Deep Imaskari and your other classes are unique combinations with the Secret Ingredient.
+0.25: Shadow Pounce made for a unique build element which unfortunately goes off on a massive tangent in the Secret Ingredient, and you don't do it terribly well (or at all; see Elegance). The effort was made, though.
-0.5: Combinging Able Learner and Factotum is an old trick, as is Shadow Pounce abuse.

Power: 2/5
-0.5: More levels of Factotum would've given you better skills and tricks, more levels of Swordsage would've given you better maneuvers and more levels of Telflammar Shadowlord would've made you even better at Shadow Pouncing. The addition of Darkrunner just seems to make the build weaker.
-0.5: Your build relies on the use of Shadow Pounce to be effective in combat, and even then you only have three attacks per round with no real source of constant damage.
+0: Even though you don't make any overt request for items or equipment, you clearly need some way of doing any consistent damage.
+0: You're ultimately rather miserable in combat, but you do make for a solid scout and bookworm otherwise.

Elegance: 1/5
-2: Due to the use of two flaws, as per the judging guidelines.
-0.5: You technically don't qualify for any of your prestige classes due to lacking fluff requirements, but Telflammar Shadowlord suffers the worst of them all. It requires that you either have Knowledge (Local-Thesk) 2 or that your home region is Thesk, but you have no ranks in Knowledge (Local-thesk) and your home region is Deep Imaskar (as required by Otherwordly)
+0.5: You qualify for all of your feats, assuming that you are in fact from Deep Imaskar. If you're not then you don't qualify for Otherworldly and thus don't qualify for Darkrunner, so I'll assume so.
-0.5: You don't tell me anything about your spell or maneuver selection, and you're toting 12 extra skill points spread across a number of levels. You also never select any of your Flaws, and the one that you do recommend is from Dragon Magazine (a prohibited resource).
+0: You've got levels in six classes, and you don't take half of them beyond level 2. On the upside, you have no multiclassing penalties.

Use of the Secret Ingredient: 2.5/5
+0.5: You qualify for the Secret Ingredient, then proceed to use its prerequisite feats to qualify for Keen-Eared Scout and Astral Tracking.
+0: You fail to complete the Secret Ingredient, but you provide sufficient justification as to why the other classes replicate or subsume the benefits of further Darkrunner levels.
-0.5: You don't care about most of the Darkrunner abilities, and those which are referenced only get a passing mention. Some of your other classes are outright superior to those of the Secre Ingredient (eg. Shadowsight over Darkvision, at-will Dimension Door rather than 1/day).
-0.5: The build feels more like a generic Shadowpouncer with Darkrunner tacked on than it does an actual Darkrunner build. I also doubt that your weak Will save would do much against the psionic might of an elder brain.
Skitters: 16.75/20
Originality: 4.25/5
+0.5: Kobolds always seen to get the short straw, and I enjoyed the tale of a helpful kobold who took that quality in stride.
-0.25: Kobold and Prime Underdark Guide are interesting, but Ranger, Factotum and Cavestalker were seen elsewhere this round.
+0.5: You readily and competently take to the role of a supporting character.
+0.5: You avoid the use of well-known cheese.

Power: 4/5
+0.5: Factotum 3 and Ranger 2 are good break points, and the levels taken in Cavestalker and Prime Underdark Guide are natural additions to your support-focused build (that is, further levels wouldn't have offered much improvement to your existing abilities and focus).
+0.5: You don't have any overt reliance on nova powers; while you do have inspiration points, they're considered a boost rather than the core of your build.
+0: This build suffers in combat without the use of items, but it otherwise functions competently (such as in pointing out enemies).
+0: "Who take ranks in Balance, anyway?" The answer is you, and your various utility skills ensure that both you and your teammates can traverse the Underdark safely. Sadly, you sactifice a lot of your offensive power to do so and could be considered dead weight during combat. For example, you're missing Precise Shot for the ability to shoot into melee.

Elegance: 3.5/5
-0.5: You don't qualify for Prime Underdark Guide because Kobolds can begin play with a maximum of three languages known: Draconic, Common and Undercommon (Prime Underdark Guide requires four known, and you spend no ranks in Speak Language in order to gain a fourth).
+0.5: The build qualifies for all feats taken.
+0.5: You avoid the use of questionable rulings, allocate all skill points correctly and avoid similar building mistakes.
+0: The build has levels in five classes, and only one (the Secret Ingredient) is taken beyond third level. It briefly suffers from multiclassing penalties (at level 4, when you're a Factotum 3/Ranger 1), but the build is clean and doesn't jump back to old classes.

Use of the Secret Ingredient: 5/5
+0.5: You qualify for the Secret Ingredient and then use its requirements for other feats (Keen-Eared Scout) and prestige classes (Cavestalker, Prime Underdark Guide).
+0.5: You take all ten levels of the Secret Ingredient.
+0.5: You provide explanations for all of the Secret Ingredient's abilities in respect to the rest of your build, and they synergise well with the rest of your build.
+0.5: The build's use of the Secret Ingredient represents a natural continuation of its other classes, such that the build feels like what a Darkrunner should be.
Ariadne: 17.25/20
Originality: 4.25/5
+0.5: You're an outcast Darkrunner out for revenge on behalf of her adoptive ancestry. No, I didn't see this coming.
+0.25: Changeling, Racial Emulation and Stonedeath Assassin are surprising components, but the use of Ranger keeps you from getting full points here.
+0: Two-Weapon Fighting and Shadow Blade.
+0.5: No major cheese was used in this build.

Power: 4.25/5
+0.5: Darkrunner and Stonedeath Assassin are taken to completion, and are ultimately more powerful than additional levels in Ranger.
+0.25: No reliance on nova powers, although Earth Devotion falls flat (see elegance).
+0.5: The build doesn't require items to be a competent melee combatant, and is merely augmented by them.
+0: You can deal some decent damage and disappear when the going gets tough, but your skills and non-combat utility aren't spectacular.

Elegance: 4.25/5
+0.25: You qualify for all prestige classes and class variants, although if you lose access to your goblinoid disguise you'll lose your Stonedeath Assassin abilities.
+0.5: You qualify for all feats taken.
+0: Earth Devotion can only be fueled by the ability to Turn or Rebuke Undead, not the ability to Turn or Rebuke Spiders (as granted by the Spider Domain). It's not an openly destructive build error, but it does render both Earth Devotion and the Spider Domain niche abilities rather than anything more.
+0.5: The build is clean and straightforward, even if I don't quite grasp the jumping between Stonedeath Assassin and Darkrunner.

Use of the Secret Ingredient: 4.5/5
+0: You qualify for the Secret Ingredient, but you don't do anything with the prerequisites.
+0.5: The build takes all ten levels of the Secret Ingredient.
+0.5: Your various movement, stealth and utility abilities (such as combining Stonedeath Strike with Improved Cavefighting, Meld Into Stone with Tremorsense or clutch use of Earth Devotion) mesh well with those of the Secret Ingredient.
+0.5: Even as an outcast of the guild, this build still feels like a Darkrunner with its various skills and proficiencies.
Orion Garranan: 9/20 (Failure to Qualify).
Originality: 3/5
+0: The fluff really doesn't give me much to work off of.
+0.5: You'd lose points for using Factotum, but Primordial Eneko and Savant make up for it.
+0: Supernatural Transformation and Imperious Command are interesting twists on Darkrunner, but neither is really taken beyond that (for example, no Darkstalker or Move Silently and no other Intimidation optimisation).
-0.5: Primordial Giant is well-known cheese, particularly when used on half-giant and half-giant variants.

Power: 2.5/5
+0: Savant 1 is an odd breakpoint, particularly on a Factotum (level 2 would've given you a bonus feat, and level 3 would've given you 1d6 sneak attack to go with your invisibility). Factotum 8 is a good breakpoint if you're going for Cunning Surge, though.
-0.5: The build is highly reliant on its limited number of Inspiration Points, and taking a single Font of Inspiration feat doesn't solve that problem.
+0: The build seems to rely on the use of Use Magic Device in order to be a competent melee combatant, and suffers for it.
+0: You seem like you might be good skill monkey, but your combat competence is lacking.

Elegance: 2.5/5
+0.5: The build qualifies for all classes and prestige classes taken other than the Secret Ingredient.
-0.5: You don't qualify for Obtain Familiar because you don't have an arcane caster level, and you don't qualify for Planar Familiar because you don't have Obtain Familiar.
+0: The build incorrectly reference Font of Inspiration (it's from the Dungeonscape Web Enhancement, not Dungeonscape) and fails to correctly allocate its skill points at every level. It is not the judge's responsibility to allocate your skill points by their own optimisation abilities, as this is both unfair to your fellow competitors and unfair upon the judges.
-0.5: While the build only uses three classes, it suffers from a level 4 dip into Savant which causes it to suffer from multiclassing penalties.

Use of the Secret Ingredient: 1/5
Automatic Failure: The build fails to qualify for the Secret Ingredient.
This build does not qualify for the Secret Ingredient because it does not qualify for Obtain Familiar (and, thus, lacks the Alertness feat). Obtain Familiar requires an arcane caster level of 3, and a Factotum's spell-like abilities do not grant them an arcane spellcaster level.

... requirements for feats and prestige classes based on specific levels of spells cast (“Able to cast 3rd-level arcane spells,” for example) cannot be met by spell-like abilities or invocations—not even spell-like abilities or invocations that allow a character to use a specific arcane spell of the appropriate level or higher.

Had you qualified for the Secret Ingredient, these are the scores you would've gotten. Total: 3.5/5
+0: The build qualifies for the Secret Ingredient but doesn't use its prerequisites anywhere else.
+0.5: The build takes all ten levels of the Secret Ingredient.
+0: While some attention
+0: While the classes used do feel like the components of a Darkrunner, the race and scattered feat selection aren't terribly conducive to an Underdark explorer.
Ihlmrhys Do'ar: 13/20 (Failure to Qualify).
Originality: 3.5/5
+0: The backstory tells me all that I really need to know about Ihlmrhys, although I would've liked to know more about the drow who apparently turned on his own (Loviatar-worshipping) kin.
+0.5: Lesser Drow and Paladin weren't seen elsewhere in this competition.
-0.5: Nothing mechanically unique was at play here.
+0.5: The build avoids the use of well-known cheese.

Power: 4.5/5
+0.5: You leave and return to your Paladin levels at good points.
+0.5: While you possess spells and Earth Devotion, they are not made to be the centerpoint of your build and you function well enough without them.
+0.5: The build is not overly reliant upon items and equipment to be effective in combat.
+0: The build makes for a competent melee combatant, but its abilities are of little use outside of combat.

Elegance: 4/5
-0.5: You lack the one rank in Knowledge (Religion) which is required to qualify for the Noble Heart substitution level. This will be more important later.
+0.5: The build qualifies for all taken feats.
+0.5: The build uses no questionable rulings, does not cross settings and avoids any miscellaneous building errors.
+0.5: The build progresses cleanly between its two classes and avoids any multiclassing penalties.

Use of the Secret Ingredient: 1/5
Automatic Failure: The build fails to qualify for the Secret Ingredient.
This build does not qualify for Darkrunner because it does not qualify for the Noble Heart Paladin substitution level. The substitution levels offered in Champions of Valor (see page 34) require both membership and one rank in Knowledge (Religion), which this build sorely lacks. Without the Noble Heart Paladin substitution level, the build never gets either the Track feat or Survival as a class skill and thus does not qualify for Darkrunner.

Had you qualified for the Secret Ingredient, these are the scores you would've gotten. Total: 3/5
+0: The build qualifies for the Secret Ingredient but doesn't make use of any of its prerequisites elsewhere.
+0: You don't take all ten levels of the secret ingredient, but you do provide sufficient justification of why more Paladin levels were ultimately a better choice.
-0.5: Due focus is given to the various abilities of the Secret Ingredient, but the build ultimately doesn't get much from those abilities. You can make difficult terrain, but you're only getting a +1 bonus to initiative and damage because you've only got 12 intelligence. You can take 10 on numerous physical skill checks, but you have no ranks in them and can already take 10 on climb via Dance of the Spider. In short, the abilities he gains the most use from are those which would be of use to anyone.
+0.5: From what I could gather, IlIhlmyhys is a helpful fellow whose choice of race and class mesh well with the themes of the Darkrunners.
Adlib: 16/20
Originality: 4/5
+0.5: I wasn't expecting such a snarky tale about the know-it-all character name.
+0: Underfolk and Factotum were seen elsewhere in this competition, but you win points back through the use of Human Paragon and Exemplar. I'll call it a wash.
+0: The Heroic Destiny line was unexpected and ultimately doesn't do much, but it works for the character and saves the build from a penalty here.
+0.5: The build avoids the use of well-known cheese.

Power: 4/5
+0.5: Factotum 3 is a natural break point if you're not going for Cunning Surge, and you squeeze all that you really care about from your Exemplar levels.
+0.5: The build is not overly reliant on nova powers in order to function in combat.
+0: While the build is not stated to be reliant on items, it's not terribly effective in combat if every condition isn't in its favour (difficult terrain and aberration enemies, mostly).
+0: The build makes for a competent skill monkey, but its mediocre combat ability depends on too many factors to be considered reliable (am I fighting on difficult terrain? Is my enemy my Aberration Specialty? Am I fighting aberrations in the first place?)

Elegance: 4.5/5
+0.5: The build qualifies for all of its chosen classes.
+0.5: The build qualifies for all feats taken.
+0: The build fails to define its "Obscure skill," fails to provide it's Aberration Specialist choice and fails to reference Iaijutsu Focus (a skill which it doesn't have any points in, but which is selected for Skill Mastery and which is from Oriental Adventures).
+0.5: The build avoids multiclassing penalties and progresses well between its various classes.

Use of the Secret Ingredient: 3.5/5
+0: The build qualifies for the Secret Ingredient but doesn't make find any creative uses for its prerequisites elsewhere.
+0.5: The build takes all ten levels of the Secret Ingredient.
-0.5: No real explanation is given for how the Secret Ingredient's abilities mesh well with the rest of the build. Aberration Specialist and Improved Cavefighting are seen as little more than damage boosts.
+0.5: You do, however, sell the concept of an underfolk-turned-underguide through your class selection and absurd number of skill points/tricks.
Graima: 15.5/20
Originality: 4/5
+0.5: Some stories are better left untold, but it's only natural to be afraid of the unknown.
+0.5: Ranger and Foe Hunter were seen elsewhere, but they're compensated for by your other classes and your chosen race.
-0.5: Nothing mechanically unique was at play here.
+0.5: The build avoids the use of well-known cheese and similar optimisation tricks.

Power: 4/5
-0.5: More levels in Lurk would've offered more powers, lurk augments (uses and types) and psionic powers, and more levels in Warlock would've offered stronger invocations (such as at-will dimension door). While Ranger 2 is a valid break point for the combat style, more levels in Foe Hunter would've given you a better anti-aberration specialisation than what is offered by the Secret Ingredient.
+0.5: The build is not overly reliant on nova abilities in order to function.
+0.5: The build is not reliant on items in order to perform competently.
+0.5: The build has a smattering of skills and abilities which make for a reasonable skill monkey and ranged combatant (although its effectiveness weakens against anything but Aberrations and you overestimate the power of your wimpy spell resistance).

Elegance: 4/5
+0.5: You qualify for all chosen classes and prestige classes (but see point 3 below)
+0.5: You qualify for all taken feats.
+0.5: Aberrations don't have an explicitly stated shared language, but that doesn't exclude you from the language requirement of Foe Hunter. The prerequisite is specifically "language (if any)," and the likely ruling is that aberrations don't have a shared language to learn (even if most know Undercommon). There are no other questionable components or build errors here.
+0: You have levels in five classes, and three of those classes aren't taken beyond level 2. Your choice to repeatedly jump between your various classes only serves to further muddy the waters and confuse the build, even though you could've taken them one at a time while still avoiding multiclassing penalties.

Use of the Secret Ingredient: 3.5/5
+0.5: The build qualifies for the Secret Ingredient and uses one of its prerequisite feats (Track) elsewhere.
+0.5: The build takes all ten levels in the Secret Ingredient.
+0: Cursory attention is given to the class features of the Secret Ingredient, but I see no real synergy between its abilities and those of your other classes.
-0.5: The build feels more like a Favoured Enemy build than it does a Darkrunner build, and even then it's a Darkrunner build with psionics and eldritch spell-likes which don't mesh particularly well with the abilities of the Secret Ingredient.
Roy: 13/20
Originality: 3/5
+0: I would've liked to know where, for example, the Darkrunners entered Roy's life. If at all.
+0.5: Warblade, Deepstone Sentinel and Dwarf compensate for your use of Ranger.
+0: Deepstone Sentinel levels keep you from being abysmally uninteresting.
-0.5: Ubercharging doesn't mesh well with Darkrunner levels, and Dungeoncrasher is missing from the fray.

Power: 3/5
-0.5: More Ranger levels would've gotten you more spells and a better Favoured Enemy ability, and more levels in Warblade would've given you more maneuvers (which, while not terribly noteworthy in their own right, would be of more use to you than all your Darkrunner levels).
+0: You can function all day, but you're reliant on a single trick (ubercharging) which is easily countered (by, say, flying or swimming).
+0.5: The build doesn't rely on items to perform its primary function (Ubercharging).
+0: You're a competent melee combatant, but your defenses aren't outstanding and the build isn't terribly coherent (you can't mesh Deepstone stances with ubercharging, for example). The build's skills are rather miserable, considering the skill-centric nature of the Secret Ingredient.

Elegance: 4.5/5
+0.5: The build qualifies for all taken classes.
+0.5: The build qualifies for all taken feats.
+0.5: The build is not reliant on any vague or questionable rulings, and I can see no immediately obvious construction errors.
+0: You take a 1-level dip in Warblade which inflicts multiclassing penalties on your last five levels, but your build is otherwise clean and keeps itself from jumping between its various classes.

Use of the Secret Ingredient: 2.5/5
+0: You qualify for the Secret Ingredient but don't use any of its prerequisites elsewhere.
+0.5: The build takes all ten levels of the Secret Ingredient.
-0.5: The build holds little concern for the various abilities of the Secret Ingredient, and those which are mentioned are immediately overshadowed by the build's ubercharging combat style. Some of them are outright useless (such as having only 7.5 ranks in Survival and making Track useless, having Spelunking but not having any ranks in Climb or Swim, and having no intelligence bonus to improve either Stonewalking or Improved Cavefighting).
-0.5: The Secret Ingredient is treated as a garnish to the rest of the build, with none of the other build components offering any form of synergy with the abilities or concept of a Darkrunner.
Esmar Tuek: 12.75/20 (Failure to Qualify).
Originality: 3.75/5
+0: The backstory doesn't give me much to work on, but it's sufficient for the purposes of this contest.
-0.25: Gold Dwarf was unexpected, but both Rogue and Foe Hunter were seen elsewhere.
+0.5: You've got a whole bunch of underground combat feats, and False Pretenses is a neat and thematic addition to the rest of the build.
+0.5: The build avoids the use of cheese and overused optimisation tricks.

Power: 4/5
+0.5: Martial Rogue 4 is a good breakpoint, and Foe Hunter is treated as a garnish (although a very powerful one).
+0.5: The build isn't reliant on nova powers or similar limited-use effects in order to function.
+0.5: The build isn't overly reliant on items or equipment in order to function.
-0.5: The build has some scouting and movement skills, but not to such an extent (or breadth) that I would consider it to be a competent skill monkey. It has some combat prowess, but its significantly weakened the moment that you step off difficult terrain or (more importantly) stop fighting aberrations.

Elegance: 4/5
+0.5: The build qualifies for all non-SI classes, variants and substitution levels.
+0.5: The build qualifies for all taken feats.
-0.5: You don't actually gain any benefit out of your Foe Hunter levels because Hated Enemy relies on having a creature type as a favoured enemy (rather than an organisation, as you have). This also technically prevents you from achieving the Language prerequisite of the class. Furthermore, Fale Pretenses is technically a variant feat from Unearthed Arcana and shouldn't be used in this competition.
+0.5: The build is clean and progresses nicely from one class to another, avoiding multiclassing penalties in the process.

Use of the Secret Ingredient: 1/5
Automatic Failure: The build fails to qualify for the Secret Ingredient.
This build does not qualify for the Secret Ingredient because it has an invalid number of ranks in Knowledge (Dungeoneering). The build never gains this skill as a class skill, and thus does not qualify for Darkrunner.
Had you qualified for the Secret Ingredient, these are the scores you would've gotten. Total: 4/5
+0.5: The build qualifies for the Secret Ingredient and makes use of its prerequisites for the Quick Reconnoiter feat and the Foe Hunter prestige class.
+0.5: The build takes all ten levels of the Secret Ingredient.
+0: The build fails to make any exemplary use of the Secret Ingredient. No real focus is given to the abilities of the Darkrunner, and none of them are actively pursued or optimised. Anyone can benefit from Aberration Lore/Specialist or Spelunking, but what about Darkvision or the ability to teleport?
+0: Gold Dwarf and Rogue are thematically appropriate choices, but Foe Hunter goes off on the common "favoured enemies!" tangent and introduces a clash of intentions. Is this meant to be a "I can navigate the underdark and quell its dangers, even for the sake of others" build, or is it meant to be a "kill all humans aberrations" build?
Creb Covenant: 17.5/20
Originality: 5/5
+0.5: A Hellbred seeking redemption is to be expected, but I've never heard of one just trying to be the best Samaritan before.
+0.5: Your race and class choices were unexpected and not seen elsewhere.
+0.5: It's a bear that shoots laser beams from its eyes. Oddly enough, this wasn't seen anywhere else.
+0.5: The build doesn't rely on well-known cheese or optimisation tricks in order to perform its role.

Power: 3.5/5
-0.5: More levels of Spirit Shaman would've given you more spells (some of which probably could've emulated the Secret Ingredient), while more levels of Sentinel of Bharrai would've given you both more spells and better bear-shaping.
+0: Bear shape functions all day, as do a few other class features. You're rather openly reliant on your spells in order to be more than a dumb ol' fighter in combat, though, and you lose a lot of your bite without them.
+0.5: The build is not reliant on equipment or items in order to function correctly.
+0.5: The build is competent in combat, and its various spells help to compensate for its otherwise mediocire set of skills.

Elegance: 5/5
+0.5: The build qualifies for all classes and prestige classes outside of the Secret Ingredient.
+0.5: The build qualifies for its chosen feats.
+0.5: The build avoids mixing settings and has no immediately obvious construction errors.
+0.5: The build is relatively clean and avoids multiclasing penalties.

Use of the Secret Ingredient: 4/5
+0: The build qualifies for the Secret Ingredient but doesn't use its prerequisites anywhere else of note.
+0.5: The build takes all ten levels of the Secret Ingredient.
+0: Rather than going for overt synergy with the Secret Ingredient, the build uses Darkrunner as a complementary addition to the rest of the build. It still works, but not to the same extent.
+0.5: As a cavern-dwelling bear-man who offers aid to other explorers of the Underdark, the build's choice of race, classes and feats allow it to feel sufficiently like a Darkrunner.
Delehdas: 17/20
Originality: 3.5/5
+0.5: You spun a charming tale about a young Underfolk's desire to see the surface and the planes. Well done.
+0: Savage Bard and Horizon Walker were interesting additions, but they are outweighed by your use of Underfolk and (shudder) Ranger.
-0.5: Nothing mechanically unique was at play here.
+0.5: The build avoids the use of well-known cheese or optimisation tricks.

Power: 4.5/5
+0: While more levels of Bard would've offered you some more spells and tricks, your other classes are fine additions to a fairly Darkrunner-centric build.
+0.5: You've got spells and Bardic Music, but you keep them from being the focus of your build and can function reasonably well without them.
+0.5: The build isn't overly reliant on items or equipment.
+0.5: The build makes for a reasonable combatant, although its primary calling is as a competent skill monkey.

Elegance: 4.5/5
+0.5: The build qualifies for all non-SI classes.
+0.5: The build qualifeis for all feats taken.
+0: Endurance is taken twice (first at level 6 as a Ranger bonus feat, then as your level 15 feat). While not a disastrous error, it does earn a deduction.
+0.5: The build is relatively clean and avoids multiclasing penalties.

Use of the Secret Ingredient: 4.5/5
+0: The build qualifies for the Secret Ingredient, but it make use of any of its prerequisites elsewhere.
+0.5: The build takes all ten levels of the Secret Ingredient.
+0.5: Due emphasis is given to the various abilities of the Secret Ingredient, even if a couple are left by the wayside (such as Spelunking).
+0.5: The combination of race, classes and feats used allow the build to feel sufficiently like a Darkrunner, even when the build departs the Underdark in its later levels.
Amaljss Myund: 14/20
Originality: 2.5/5
+0.5: I enjoyed reading Amaljss' various tests of strength and his service to the Spider Queen, even if you make out the Darkrunners to be more aberrations slayers than Underdark explorers.
+0: (Non-Lesser) Drow and the Lolth Touched template were nice additions, but there's nothing else new or unexpected here.
-0.5: Nothing mechanically unique was at play here.
-0.5: The build feels like a rather standard Swift Hunter build, albeit with the addition of Darkrunner.

Power: 4/5
+0: More levels in Ranger and Scout would've made for a better Swift Hunter build, but you leave them at reasonable levels (level 4 and 3, respectively) in order to pursue the Secret Ingredient. I'll call it a wash.
+0.5: The build functions consistently throughout the day without relying on nova powers or limited-use tricks.
+0.5: You're not overly reliant on items or equipment in order to perform your role (that is, Swift Huntery with some skillmonkeying)
+0: The build makes for a competent scout and has a number of niche skills, but its combat power is lacking (such as relying on AoO-provoking charging to deal skirmish damage and its rather terrible BAB).

Elegance: 4.5/5
+0.5: The build qualifies for all non-SI classes (after all, base classes don't have prerequisites).
+0.5: The build qualifies for all taken feats.
+0: You're missing a skill point at ECL 15/level 12, and you seem to think that Power Attack and Two-Weapon Fighting mesh far better than they actually do (which is to say, terribly).
+0.5: You balance your two base classes well and avoid any multiclassing penalties.

Use of the Secret Ingredient: 3/5
+0: The build qualifies for the Secret Ingredient but doesn't make any use of its prerequisites elsewhere.
+0.5: The build takes all ten levels of the Secret Ingredient.
+0: You've offered a writeup of all of the Secret Ingredient's class features, but you leave many of them as circumstantial bonuses rather than something to be relied upon (for example, you can't make difficult terrain to gain bonuses from).
-0.5: The build feels like a subterranean Swift Hunter, not a Darkrunner. It felt like the Darkrunners only get a passing mention in the story, and your feats are those of a Lolthite Illithid slayer rather than an Underdark explorer.
Rizzo: 14/20
Originality: 3.5/5
+0: The limited amount of background gives me enough to work with, but not much else.
+0.5: You were the only Human, the only Dragonborn and the only Generic Warrior, making up for your use of Scout.
-0.5: Nothing mechanically unique was at play here.
+0.5: The build avoids the use of well-known cheese and optimisation tricks.

Power: 4/5
+0.5: Scout 4 is a good break point, and your Generic Warrior levels are used as garnish to the Secret Ingredient.
+0.5: The build functions consistently throughout the day without a reliance on nova powers.
+0.5: The build is not overly reliant on items or equipment.
-0.5: Your combat style feels confused (skirmish damage or power attack? Where do Quick Draw and Cleave come in? Huh, Monkey Grip?) and doesn't seem terribly effective, and your skills are left by the wayside as soon as you leave Darkrunner.

Elegance: 4/5
+0.5: The build qualifies for all classes other than the Secret Ingredient (not that base classes have any prerequisites).
+0.5: You qualify for all taken feats.
-0.5: You can't use Generic Warrior with Scout, as generic classes are not to be used with standard classes.
+0.5: The build is quite clean overall and avoids multiclassing penalties.

Use of the Secret Ingredient: 2.5/5
+0: The build qualifies for the Secret Ingredient, but it doesn't use its prerequisites anywhere else of note.
+0.5: The build takes all ten levels of the Secret Ingredient.
-0.5: No real attention, focus or synergy is provided for the various abilities of the Secret Ingredient; instead, they get footnotes with generic uses.
-0.5: I'm not given anything which really screams Darkrunner. Dragonborn are the hunters of evil dragons, not aberrations; after taking levels in the skill-focused Secret Ingredient, Generic Warrior is a curveball; and more than half of your feats are, for lack of a better term 'Fighter feat fodder.'
Steven: 9/20 (Failure to Qualify).
Originality: 3/5
+0: The fluff provided doesn't give me a very good sense of character or anything to work off of, feeling both incoherent and unfocused. Upside: It's there, and you appear to have made some sort of effort.
+0.5: Rogue was seen elsewhere, but Fireblooded Dwarf and your other classes make up for it.
+0: Trappery was a unique twist on Darkrunner, but none of your other tricks or abilities break any new ground.
-0.5: A dip in Cloistered Cleric for devotion feats and the use of Staggering Strike are both killers here.

Power: 2.5/5
+0: More levels of Rogue would've given you better trapping and sneakery, while Cloistered Cleric would've put the almighty force of spellcasting on your side. On the other hand, Swashbuckler is practically only 3 levels long and Trapsmith is taken to completion. I'll call it a wash.
-0.5: Trapsmith traps require time and the expenditure of gold in order to set up, your Trapsmith spells are limited and you've only go a tiny turning pool of 3 in order to power Earth Devotion and Travel Devotion. Without the time or resources for either, you lose a lot of your potency.
-0.5: The build is openly reliant on stat-boosting items in order to use some of its class features (spellcasting, turning, intelligence to weapon damage), and trap use (a gold-funded affair) likely falls under this category as well.
+0.5: In terms of combat prowess, this build starts off slow and then steadily snowballs through the abuse of Trapsmith traps and through the use of the Two-Weapon Fighting tree (with Staggering Strike as the kicker). You've also got a whole bunch of skills, some of which are the alternative knowledges (congratulations, you were the only build to realise that not all Underdark denizens are aberrations!).

Elegance: 2.5/5
+0.5: The build qualifies for all non-SI classes.
-0.5: You don't meet Greater Two-Weapon Fighting's prerequisite of 19 dexterity, nor Practised Caster's prerequisite of 4 ranks in Spellcraft.
+0: Aside from lacking a source list, the build avoids mixing settings and doesn't have any other immediately obvious construction errors.
-0.5: You've got two one-level dips and suffer from multiclassing penalties from level 5 onwards.

Use of the Secret Ingredient: 1/5
Automatic Failure: The build fails to qualify for the Secret Ingredient.
This build fails to qualify for the secret ingredient because it immediately trades away the Travel domain (which would've granted it Survival as a class skill) away for Travel Devotion, thus preventing it from ever gaining the prerequisite skill points needed for Darkrunner.
Had you qualified for the Secret Ingredient, these are the scores you would've gotten. Total: 2.5/5
+0: The build qualifies for the Secret Ingredient but doesn't use its prerequisites elsewhere.
+0.5: The build takes all ten levels of the Secret Ingredient.
-0.5: Looking through all of the grumbling about the Secret Ingredient, I see a scant few synergies which don't really add up to anything noteworthy. Earth Devotion can make difficult terrain for Improved Cavefighting, but you can only get 4 uses per day (without items, without any spending any turn attempts on Travel Devotion). You get intelligence to damage twice, one of which is an always-on bonus which is superior to that of the Secret Ingredient. Trapsmith traps are actively opposed by the melee-focused combat style of the Darkrunner. The other abilities are those which could benefit anyone.
-0.5: You seem to make it rather clear that you wouldn't be taking Darkrunner if it wasn't the Secret Ingredient. Even then, the build is muddled (Why is there a dip in cleric in my underdark explorer build?) and doesn't have any real synergy (thematic or otherwise) with the feel of the Secret Ingredient.

OMG PONIES

2014-06-10, 01:57 PM

Muggins, good catch on those failures to qualify! Regarding builds that fail to qualify for the Secret Ingredient, I think this is covered in the FAQ:

What's the minimum score in a category? Assuming an entry is legal, the minimum score in any category is 1. If a judge is convinced that an entry is mechanically illegal by the RAW, the judge may give the build a score of 0 in Elegance, and proceed to judge the entry as if the offending material was not included. Failing to meet a special requirements for a prestige class does not merit a 0, but may qualify for a penalty, at the judge's discretion. Because this contest focuses on Player Characters, an entry that is not technically allowed for a PC, but is viable as an NPC, counts as a legal entry, but may receive a minimum score at the judges' discretion.
* * *

I thought that text trumped over table, and since the text lists them specifically as a 'subrace' which does have a very clear defined value that would take precedence over any ambiguity. I don't see anything that specifically says Elans are a 'subrace' of humans, so I would agree that Elans are not human.

Where is "subrace" clearly defined, or "race" for that matter? I know that some people still debate the difference in races that specify humanoid (human), but this is even farther removed.

* * *

Oh, a quick note to my fellow judges: Rizzo takes levels in the generic Warrior class from Unearthed Arcana, as referenced in his sources section. He's not using the Warrior NPC class (as OMG_PONIES assumes)* or the Fighter class (as Rama assumes)*, so some of your comments are off. On the other hand, he's using a variant rule from Unearthed Arcana which would probably be considered cheesy, unfair and at least partially illegal.

I don't think we've ever had someone use one of the generic classes before. Since this is such a special occasion, what should the ruling be on whether the generic classes can be mixed with non-core classes? The generic class rules explicitly ban the use of classes from the Player's Handbook, but not any of the base classes (such as Scout) from outside the core rules (because those other books hadn't been released).

*I'm not using 'assumes' in an accusatory way here. After all, I was caught a bit off-guard too.

Good looking out! I'll choose to leave my score as-is unless Rizzo would like to debate the Elegance penalty for the feats. That being said, such a dispute would open the "what should we do w/ generic classes?" can of worms. That being said, I leave it to the entrant--take the sure thing of my score as it currently stands, or roll the dice on a dispute and possibly lose less points or more points based on how we determine generic classes should be scored.

Muggins

2014-06-10, 02:16 PM

Muggins, good catch on those failures to qualify! Regarding builds that fail to qualify for the Secret Ingredient, I think this is covered in the FAQ:
Thanks OMG_PONIES, although "mechanically illegal" seems like a rather strange way to put it. Would I be correct in reading that as "if a build doesn't qualify for the Secret Ingredient, give it a 0 in Elegance and then score as normally?" Because I can do that.

I'm pretty sure I've got the judging stubs for the FtQ builds somewhere. I'll fill out the missing pieces and add them to the original post.

dysprosium

2014-06-10, 02:22 PM

Thank you for judging Muggins!

If I may chime in . . .

It would be great if you could use whatever notes you had and give full scores for those labeled as failure to qualify, using 1s or 0s as the case may be for scores as necessary. This way we would not have to have a "Limbo" category like there was back in Black Flame Zealot.

relytdan

2014-06-10, 02:30 PM

my 2 coppers worth on the subject of the generic class via SRD and unearthed arcana page 76

If you use these generic classes, you shouldn't also use the standard character classes (or variants of those classes). You can still include prestige classes, if you wish to add that level of complexity to your game, but you may have to tweak some prestige class prerequisites that include class features not available to these classes.

It could be argued that any full 20 level class is "Standard" ; which leaves PRC's which all have requirements.
Banned versus Should not ; Obviously Banned is totally out and disallowed, while should not is perhaps a questionable rules bit judging wise

I personally do not see anything that would prevent ANY "Standard" class from being used with a Generic Class.

Kazudo

2014-06-10, 02:41 PM

Deadline

2014-06-10, 02:46 PM

As is customary, I am scrambling at the last minute to finish judging. I'm going to make it, but several caffeinated beverages will not. Many bottles of them will die to bring you this information.

Sian

2014-06-10, 03:50 PM

Deadline, you do know you still have some 50 hours to go right? (well ... probably a bit shorter due to allowences for disputes)

Tim Proctor

2014-06-10, 03:50 PM

Where is "subrace" clearly defined, or "race" for that matter? I know that some people still debate the difference in races that specify humanoid (human), but this is even farther removed.
DMG pg 170. contains most of the information on subraces, most of the information is gleaned from the same term being used from Gold Dwarves, Deep Dwarves, Whisper Gnomes, etc. which are listed a subraces and very much fall under their parent racial type. Since the deep w/e specifically uses the term subrace I'm very inclined to believe that it is a human subtype. Riddick isn't my character and I don't think it'll make much of a difference in the standings (I'm fairly sure those flaws are still gonna stick that build with a 1 in elegance).

For the sake of not having to deal with the FTQ issue:

Orion Garranan, I think you are confusing two different things, caster level and level of spell cast. Obtain familiar requires "Knowledge (arcana) 4 ranks, arcane caster level 3rd," and does not rely on the level of a spell cast. Which means you need to jump up to the previous paragraph where it says "creatures that use spell-like abilities or invocations instead of spells use either their fixed caster level or their class level to determine qualification", which Factotum states "Your caster level equals your level in this character class". When Orion takes the feat they are a 3rd level caster.

Ihlmrhys Do'ar, the FTQ is correct, or at least I can't see a way around the FTQ with the build as written. However, the issue really is a FTQ for Noble Heart Paladin and not a FTQ for the SI.

Esmar Tuek, this build takes Knowledge Devotion at level 3 with Dungeoneering as the gained class skill, which does give it the ranks needed. You can see the builder even put * next to the cross-class skills as appropriate in the build.

Steven, the build takes 2 survival starting off at level 1 as a cross class skill, and then doesn't add to it until Trapsmith which they continue to cross class. The travel domain for survival isn't even used, which is good because as you pointed out they grabbed the devotion feat instead.

Deadline

2014-06-10, 04:14 PM

Deadline, you do know you still have some 50 hours to go right? (well ... probably a bit shorter due to allowences for disputes)

Are you implying that the Deadline does not know the deadline?
http://oneguyrambling.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/big-lebowski-Jesus.jpg

I must admit that I had my days mixed up. :smallredface:

WhamBamSam

2014-06-10, 04:20 PM

Generic Classes would be very similar to Racial Paragon classes and Alternate Classes, however they are custom devices where RP and Alternate classes aren't. I think they'd be treated similarly to using a custom bloodline or using custom magical items.

I won't be judging this time around. Life got too interesting. Sigh.I'm not going to get judgings done either. Real life and procrastination have gotten the best of me. It looks like our competitors are in good hands though.

Kuulvheysoon

2014-06-10, 04:43 PM

I'm not going to get judgings done either. Real life and procrastination have gotten the best of me. It looks like our competitors are in good hands though.
Oh yes - three judges is an excellent showing on the behalf of the non-competitors. On that note, disputes!

To Ponies:

Glad to see you judging this round, thanks for doing that.

You state:
"Heroic/Fearless/Protected Destiny are cool but each only function 1/day. While everything else functions well throughout the day, sinking 3 feats into once-daily abilities will leave you feeling bored at times (-0.5)."

My Response:
Understood, I just wanted to pull a Gandalf and fall into a deep chasm to escape a Balor and live, come back to the party a few days later as Adlib the white. It was really one of those things that since you're taking 10s on everything jumping across the Underdark like a crack-addict monkey and sooner or later the DM will get pissed and fiat that you fell, but now you get to live, re-roll, or if extra challenging then add a d6 to the roll. If you're DM does that to you more than 1/day then you have bigger issues.

You state:
"Offensively, you lack a fourth iterative attack or reliable bonus damage. Defensively, you've got a few options from Insightful Reflexes and your Escape Artist focus, but I still wonder how you'd hold up in a straight fight. Utility is where you really shine, though (0)."

My Response:
I don't thinking full-attacking will happen too much, he's not the party beat stick so he shouldn't be toe-to-toe with a creature too often. Defensively the Destiny feats also help. The big thing is that the terrain in the Underdark is just as dangerous as creatures, and not everything int he Underdark is an enemy so the Diplomacy (32) and 22 languages is supposed to help prevent a lot of unnecessary encounters turning into combat encounters.

You state:
"It felt like the only reason this one took Darkrunner was to fill in a blank. Why wasn't this factotum 11/exemplar 9 or factotum 8/human paragon 2/exemplar 10 (-0.5)?"

My Response:
If it was literally to fill in a blank, that would be the most fitting segment for the build, it actually really could be a fill-in the blank. Since this build has all skills as class skills, very changeable attributes, etc. You could use build his to enter into many prestige classes, very 'ad lib'. However, this is a skill-based build and Darkrunner's ability to allow taking 10s on 5 skills is one of the best match that with the +10 from Spelunking on 6 skills, tied in with Exemplars you never have to roll dice you just tell people you're doing something.

To Muggins:

You state:
"+0: The Heroic Destiny line was unexpected and ultimately doesn't do much, but it works for the character and saves the build from a penalty here."

My Response:
Are you saying that the feats are so worthless that they even take an originality hit? Or did you mean to put points here?

You state:
"-0.5: The build fails to define its "Obscure skill," fails to provide it's Aberration Specialist choice and fails to reference Iaijutsu Focus (a skill which it doesn't have any points in, but which is selected for Skill Mastery and which is from Oriental Adventures)."

My Response:
Obscure skill was defined by the reader, it is an adlib after all, same with aberration specialist. Iaijutsu Focus, which is a class skill for this build, and if obscure skill was used for Iaijutsu Focus was the obscure skill (original thought, but accidentally got left when I went to clean for the adlib). They were left open because it holds no real relevance and is in the spirit of the ad lib experience.

You state:
"-0.5: No real explanation is given for how the Secret Ingredient's abilities mesh well with the rest of the build. Aberration Specialist and Improved Cavefighting are seen as little more than damage boosts."

My Response:
Improved Cave fighting is what allows this build to take 10s on 5 skills, which is the central focus of the build, taking 10 on skills. Aberration Lore/Specialist is seen as a diplomacy buff when needed, that's why a high diplomacy and 22 languages, as well as the occasional damage. Both Cave fighting, Improved Cave fighting, and the Lore/Specialists all work with the skills for tumbling pass, escape artist, etc. I fell that it is rather well explained and demonstrated in the build.

If a creature type doesn't have a shared language and you need to know that shared language to enter a class,

Let me show exhibit A

Language: The language (if any) of the intended hated enemy.

So other than the arguement that Abarrations might have undercommon as a racial language (which in it self is houseruling, as it aren't stated out anywhere to the best of my knowledge), I qualify in that it doesn't have an racial language that can end up being a failure state by not having it.

rama disputes
Originality
were not in English at school here so cut the crap about sentence structure ect..
warrior class gets no bonus feats- have you read the correct warrior entry ? sure looks to me like it has them just like the fighter has them...<UA page 78> Table 2–10: The Warrior

power
tunnel fighting (RoS p145) You do not take a penalty on your attack rolls or to your AC when squeezing into or through a tight space.
tunnelfighter (Und p27) You ignore the penalty for hampered melee in a narrow or low space; your penalty for using a two-handed weapon in such conditions is only -4; you do not lose your Dexterity bonus to armor class in such places. If a space is both low and narrow, you function as if only one of the penalties applied.

* so yes the kind of do simular things but yet have differences and functions

I don’t like your feat selections in the second half of the build - your opinion only it serves a function not just running down a list of fighter feats.

elegance
There are significant errors in your build presentation
*No there is not.. read the build! more over read the <UA page 78> Table 2–10: The Warrior - very carfully

omg ponies disputes
* Thanks for the comments

elegance
•Warriors don't gain bonus feats - please refer to <UA page 78> Table 2–10: The Warrior
And the TEXT states - Bonus Feats: A warrior gets one bonus feat at 1st level, on e at 2nd level, and another one at every second class level (4th, 6th, and so on).
tunnel fighting (RoS p145) You do not take a penalty on your attack rolls or to your AC when squeezing into or through a tight space.
tunnelfighter (Und p27) You ignore the penalty for hampered melee in a narrow or low space; your penalty for using a two-handed weapon in such conditions is only -4; you do not lose your Dexterity bonus to armor class in such places. If a space is both low and narrow, you function as if only one of the penalties applied.

Muggins Disputes
elegance
-0.5: You can't use Generic Warrior with Scout, as generic classes are not to be used with standard classes.
Please point out exactly where it says that anyone can not use the generic classes with the standard classes.
OMG Ponies

We had another foe hunter, another rogue, and some dwarves. Sadly, choosing gold dwarf wasn't enough of a variant to make this build stand out (-0.5).
For the sake of argument, the rogue levels taken are Martial Rogue and Golden Hand levels, not regular Rogue. This was one of those SIs that did have a few issues with entry that made it difficult in order to enter as soon as possible and Rogue seemed the least likely to get grouped into like Ranger, Scout, Factotum. I just don't see how rogue is worth enough of a negative while the main three were able to reclaim their originality.

Offensively, we only have 3 attacks and a non-significant source of bonus damage against all but favored enemies. Defensively, full plate and tumbling won't keep you safe. In terms of utility, you could use a bit more versatility (-0.5).
DR 7/- against your hated foe, SR 21, which is important because aboleths use minions and that makes them part of the organization (your hated foe, which carries over your benefits). While that only counts against favored enemy/hated foe having them as a group who mind controls people for minions makes it rather versatile. If the campaign isn't against a majority of that group then you wasted 6 levels with Foe Hunter and many other things would have been better.

Aboleths speak their own language, and since you can't speak it you don't qualify for foe hunter (-0.5).
Aboleths also speak undercommon, and since this is an underdark campaign I felt with was extremely redundant to mention it.

Undermountain Tactics requires a BAB of +6 so you don't qualify anyway at level 4 (-0.5).
Undermountain Tactics requires, "Dwarf or gnome; or base attack bonus +6 and Knowledge (dungeoneering) 2 ranks". Meaning that Dwarf OR Gnome OR BAB +6 w/ dungeoneering 2 are the requirements. Any Dwarf or Gnome qualifies at any level.

While I liked the attention paid to Deepsong's Will boost, other class features received only passing mention instead of highlighting any special synergy (0).
The build mentions Spelunking and the syngergies with tunnel fighting and under mountain. Also Quick Recons synergy with Cave Fighting for the initiative, Aberration Lore/Specialist with Gold Dwarf, Favored Enemy, Hated Foe. While those may be brief descriptions of how they interact, if they were mentioned 3 times would it make their synergy any more powerful?

Darkrunner makes sense for a smuggler--especially when you highlighted that survival was about more than stealth. However, I'm still wondering why you chose Darkrunner over more Foe Hunter (0).
Because 4 more levels of Foe Hunter (for 10) and 4 less of Darkrunner (for 6) would have not only made Spelunking less successful +6 instead of +10, he wouldn't be able to take 10s from Improved Cavefighting. Deepsong wouldn't come into effect, Stone Walking, etc. Basically look at the last 4 levels of Darkrunner and compare them to the last 4 of Foe Hunter the +2d6 damage and +4/- DR and +4 SR isn't worth much compared to sheer utility of the Darkrunner levels.

I appreciate your judgments, and hope that in your pony of pony hearts you find reason to understand my points.

Muggins

This build does not qualify for the Secret Ingredient because it has an invalid number of ranks in Knowledge (Dungeoneering). The build never gains this skill as a class skill, and thus does not qualify for Darkrunner.
Will you quit mean muggins me? I took knowledge devotion at level 3 with dungeoneering as the class skill, because "Upon selecting this feat, you immediately add one Knowledge skill of your choice to your list of class skills.".

It's cool, we all make mistakes, I know I made a few.:smallsmile:

Tim Proctor

2014-06-10, 07:09 PM

Amphetryon

2014-06-10, 07:56 PM

Since the speak language issue seems to be relevant for both Foe Hunter builds, I wanted to get a general conversation about it going on.

Foe Hunter requires the ability to speak the language if there is one. I've been scouring the interwebz looking for an aberration language and one for the abolethic sovergnity doesn't have one either.

Abberations don't have a solid language, many speak undercommon but some speak giant and not undercommon.

Aboleths do but it is a group not a race and includes all the enslaved minion, which is interesting because it works like dominate person and that requires common language. So one could surmise the undercommon would be the language, since they don't have access to common, but that's just a guess since it doesn't exist RAW anywhere.

So it looks to me that there isn't a language for either of the favored enemies, but I wanted to get other opinions about it since the topic was brought up.

A reasonable reading of that requirement, to me, is Foe Hunter implicitly (rather than explicitly) requires that the specific Aberration chosen does have a language listed in its writeup, which the prospective Darkrunner must be able to speak, either from Bonus Languages from high INT or from the Speak Language Skill. I make no claim that my entry this round qualified or did not qualify on these grounds.

Muggins

2014-06-10, 10:05 PM

Adlib: +0.5 alteration, total score of 16/20.

You state:
"+0: The Heroic Destiny line was unexpected and ultimately doesn't do much, but it works for the character and saves the build from a penalty here."

My Response:
Are you saying that the feats are so worthless that they even take an originality hit? Or did you mean to put points here?
I apologise for the wording here. This section of the criteria was for whether the build did anything mechanically interesting or unique. While the Heroic Destiny line wasn't seen elsewhere, they're each 1/day abilities which don't provide any consistent, character-altering changes to the rest of the build. Judging stands.

You state:
"-0.5: The build fails to define its "Obscure skill," fails to provide it's Aberration Specialist choice and fails to reference Iaijutsu Focus (a skill which it doesn't have any points in, but which is selected for Skill Mastery and which is from Oriental Adventures)."

My Response:
Obscure skill was defined by the reader, it is an adlib after all, same with aberration specialist. Iaijutsu Focus, which is a class skill for this build, and if obscure skill was used for Iaijutsu Focus was the obscure skill (original thought, but accidentally got left when I went to clean for the adlib). They were left open because it holds no real relevance and is in the spirit of the ad lib experience.
It's an adlib, but the builds supplied to this competition should be complete and ready for inspection. I do not consider it to be the judges' responsibility to complete a build on behalf of the contestant (which, among other things, creates an unfair competition by using the judges' optimisation abilities in pleace of your own). You break away from the adlib part in your build table and Notes, so why not go all the way?

That said, I do believe that these points are deserving of a score of +0 rather than a score of -0.5, as I recall there being a couple of other builds with minor build errors such as this. Judging altered from -0.5 to +0. Total modification of +0.5, for a total result of 16/20.

You state:
"-0.5: No real explanation is given for how the Secret Ingredient's abilities mesh well with the rest of the build. Aberration Specialist and Improved Cavefighting are seen as little more than damage boosts."

My Response:
Improved Cave fighting is what allows this build to take 10s on 5 skills, which is the central focus of the build, taking 10 on skills. Aberration Lore/Specialist is seen as a diplomacy buff when needed, that's why a high diplomacy and 22 languages, as well as the occasional damage. Both Cave fighting, Improved Cave fighting, and the Lore/Specialists all work with the skills for tumbling pass, escape artist, etc. I fell that it is rather well explained and demonstrated in the build.
For some reason I was thinking that the ability to take 10 was from Spelunker; my apologies. However, only Improved Cavefighting and Aberration Lore/Specialty are given any mention in the build, with no mention for its other features like Spelunking, Tunnelport, Deepsong, Tremorsense or Stonewalking. While I'll admit that Improved Cavefighting is also used for the ability to take 10, Skill Mastery could've done the same (and, since you get an extra mastered skill for each level of Exemplar, it would've been an easy pickup). Judging Stands.

Rizzo: No alteration.

-0.5: You can't use Generic Warrior with Scout, as generic classes are not to be used with standard classes.
Please point out exactly where it says that anyone can not use the generic classes with the standard classes.
Here you go (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm).

If you use these generic classes, you shouldn't also use the standard character classes (or variants of those classes).
Judging stands.

Esmar Tuek: No alteration.

Will you quit mean muggins me? I took knowledge devotion at level 3 with dungeoneering as the class skill, because "Upon selecting this feat, you immediately add one Knowledge skill of your choice to your list of class skills.".

It's cool, we all make mistakes, I know I made a few.
How do you qualify for Knowledge Devotion's prerequisite of 5 ranks in any knowledge skill? Judging stands (for now).

On the topic of Foe Hunter for Aboleths, wouldn't the correct language be Aboleth? The Monster Manual says that they "speak their own language, as well as Undercommon and Aquan," so they explicitly do have a racial language but we just don't know what it's called. Probably Aboleth.
In regards to Mind Flayers, who "speak Undercommon but prefer to communicate telepathically," the language needed for Foe Hunter would be Undercommon. I think.

Assuming that Graima's dispute is for me: No alteration.

If a creature type doesn't have a shared language and you need to know that shared language to enter a class,
Let me show exhibit A

Language: The language (if any) of the intended hated enemy.
So other than the arguement that Abarrations might have undercommon as a racial language (which in it self is houseruling, as it aren't stated out anywhere to the best of my knowledge), I qualify in that it doesn't have an racial language that can end up being a failure state by not having it.
You might notice that I gave you a score of +0, not -0.5. I also didn't penalise you twice (In both "qualifies for all non-SI classes" and for "miscellaneous build errors"), and in the end I assumed that you did qualify for Foe Hunter.

This is because "the language (if any) of the intended hared enemy" is a phrase which is open for dispute, discussion and disagreement. Your DM could rule that since Mind Flayers only speak Undercommon, you should know that. Your DM might rule that "the language" refers to a racial language, and that since Mind Flayers don't have one you don't need to meet the requirement. It's a questionable ruling, and I deducted you appropriately. Judging stands.

dantiesilva

2014-06-11, 12:02 AM

chairman your Mailbox is full

OMG PONIES

2014-06-11, 05:32 AM

@Muggins: just a few quick "judge to judge" questions:

There's something odd going on w/ the formatting for your first comment under Creb Covenant's power score.
A quick arithmetic question on Amaljss Myund's Originality: the total lists 3.5, but the bullets total 2.5. Which is accurate?

chairman your Mailbox is full

If ever there was a statement that struck fear in the hearts of the judges during dispute season...

You state:
"Heroic/Fearless/Protected Destiny are cool but each only function 1/day. While everything else functions well throughout the day, sinking 3 feats into once-daily abilities will leave you feeling bored at times (-0.5)."

My Response:
Understood, I just wanted to pull a Gandalf and fall into a deep chasm to escape a Balor and live, come back to the party a few days later as Adlib the white. It was really one of those things that since you're taking 10s on everything jumping across the Underdark like a crack-addict monkey and sooner or later the DM will get pissed and fiat that you fell, but now you get to live, re-roll, or if extra challenging then add a d6 to the roll. If you're DM does that to you more than 1/day then you have bigger issues.

I appreciate the perspective, but the fact remains that you're sinking 3 feats into ducking flying DMGs. You could have instead chosen feats that are useful all day long. Because you don't, you're giving up some potential power. Scoring stands.

You state:
"Offensively, you lack a fourth iterative attack or reliable bonus damage. Defensively, you've got a few options from Insightful Reflexes and your Escape Artist focus, but I still wonder how you'd hold up in a straight fight. Utility is where you really shine, though (0)."

My Response:
I don't thinking full-attacking will happen too much, he's not the party beat stick so he shouldn't be toe-to-toe with a creature too often. Defensively the Destiny feats also help. The big thing is that the terrain in the Underdark is just as dangerous as creatures, and not everything int he Underdark is an enemy so the Diplomacy (32) and 22 languages is supposed to help prevent a lot of unnecessary encounters turning into combat encounters.

You were scooping up the points here for your defensive options as well as the sheer amount of utility you provide. The only reason this was a 0 instead of a +0.5 was that, as you've admitted, Adlib relies on the party beatstick to play offense. A truly powerful build can fulfill all three roles. Scoring stands.

You state:
"It felt like the only reason this one took Darkrunner was to fill in a blank. Why wasn't this factotum 11/exemplar 9 or factotum 8/human paragon 2/exemplar 10 (-0.5)?"

My Response:
If it was literally to fill in a blank, that would be the most fitting segment for the build, it actually really could be a fill-in the blank. Since this build has all skills as class skills, very changeable attributes, etc. You could use build his to enter into many prestige classes, very 'ad lib'. However, this is a skill-based build and Darkrunner's ability to allow taking 10s on 5 skills is one of the best match that with the +10 from Spelunking on 6 skills, tied in with Exemplars you never have to roll dice you just tell people you're doing something.

I appreciate the insight into your reasons, but I didn't get that impression from your initial presentation. Also, this question was more of a concepetual & thematic one than a mechanical one. My point was if you're going for a "jack of all trades," there are plenty of other options besides Darkrunner. As such, scoring stands.

Warriors don't gain bonus feats - please refer to <UA page 78> Table 2–10: The Warrior
And the TEXT states - Bonus Feats: A warrior gets one bonus feat at 1st level, on e at 2nd level, and another one at every second class level (4th, 6th, and so on).

Apologies, I was unaware that you were using the generic class instead of the NPC class. I see that the citation was provided in your source list, but going forward listing what you've chosen to pull from that source helps us judges keep it all straight...especially when it comes to things in different sources that use the same name. As such, you gain +1 Elegance as you qualify for all feats taken (changing from -0.5 to +0.5). However, you also lose -1 Elegance since not only are you using an alternate system in generic classes, your interpretation of them is questionable in taking a generic class alongside a standard class (changing from +0.5 to -0.5). Since it's a wash overall, I'm updating my comments but scoring stands.

We had another foe hunter, another rogue, and some dwarves. Sadly, choosing gold dwarf wasn't enough of a variant to make this build stand out (-0.5).
For the sake of argument, the rogue levels taken are Martial Rogue and Golden Hand levels, not regular Rogue. This was one of those SIs that did have a few issues with entry that made it difficult in order to enter as soon as possible and Rogue seemed the least likely to get grouped into like Ranger, Scout, Factotum. I just don't see how rogue is worth enough of a negative while the main three were able to reclaim their originality.

While the levels of rogue taken had some variants going on, that's like the difference between Kobe beef and Wagyu beef--to me, it's all just cow. As far as others who reclaimed originality, they did so via their use of other classes, races, or PrCs that stuck out from the pack. For example, the other rogue won back points through the inclusion of cleric, swashbuckler and trapsmith. In your case, Foe Hunter was the only other class and that, too, was replicated. Scoring stands.

Offensively, we only have 3 attacks and a non-significant source of bonus damage against all but favored enemies. Defensively, full plate and tumbling won't keep you safe. In terms of utility, you could use a bit more versatility (-0.5).
DR 7/- against your hated foe, SR 21, which is important because aboleths use minions and that makes them part of the organization (your hated foe, which carries over your benefits). While that only counts against favored enemy/hated foe having them as a group who mind controls people for minions makes it rather versatile. If the campaign isn't against a majority of that group then you wasted 6 levels with Foe Hunter and many other things would have been better.

As I read hated foe, you select a creature--not an organization (unlike your Golden Hands favored enemy). So while you have plenty of defense against aboleths, it doesn't come to bear against their minions or any other creatures you'll face. Scoring stands.

Aboleths speak their own language, and since you can't speak it you don't qualify for foe hunter (-0.5).
Aboleths also speak undercommon, and since this is an underdark campaign I felt with was extremely redundant to mention it.

The way I read Foe Hunter, if there is any language used exclusively by your intended hated enemy, you must speak it. That aboleths also speak Undercommon and Aquan is a moot point, as they have their own exclusive language. By not learning said language, you do not qualify for Foe Hunter. Scoring stands.

Undermountain Tactics requires a BAB of +6 so you don't qualify anyway at level 4 (-0.5).
Undermountain Tactics requires, "Dwarf or gnome; or base attack bonus +6 and Knowledge (dungeoneering) 2 ranks". Meaning that Dwarf OR Gnome OR BAB +6 w/ dungeoneering 2 are the requirements. Any Dwarf or Gnome qualifies at any level.

Good call on that one, I'll update my comments. However, since you still fail to qualify for Weapon Focus at level 1 scoring stands.

While I liked the attention paid to Deepsong's Will boost, other class features received only passing mention instead of highlighting any special synergy (0).
The build mentions Spelunking and the syngergies with tunnel fighting and under mountain. Also Quick Recons synergy with Cave Fighting for the initiative, Aberration Lore/Specialist with Gold Dwarf, Favored Enemy, Hated Foe. While those may be brief descriptions of how they interact, if they were mentioned 3 times would it make their synergy any more powerful?

It's not about how many times you mention a class feature; it's about showing the judges how you've synergized it. I saw a few quick mentions of the items above, but when you don't devote more than a fragment of a sentence to them, it makes it hard to see how you've showcased them. That being said, you did point out the synergies. In future rounds, just be sure to give us a little more to go on. +0.5 Use of Secret Ingredient.

Darkrunner makes sense for a smuggler--especially when you highlighted that survival was about more than stealth. However, I'm still wondering why you chose Darkrunner over more Foe Hunter (0).
Because 4 more levels of Foe Hunter (for 10) and 4 less of Darkrunner (for 6) would have not only made Spelunking less successful +6 instead of +10, he wouldn't be able to take 10s from Improved Cavefighting. Deepsong wouldn't come into effect, Stone Walking, etc. Basically look at the last 4 levels of Darkrunner and compare them to the last 4 of Foe Hunter the +2d6 damage and +4/- DR and +4 SR isn't worth much compared to sheer utility of the Darkrunner levels.

My question wasn't a mechanical one, but a conceptual and thematic one. I wasn't asking why you chose 10 levels of Darkrunner; I was asking why you chose any. You got some points because I saw how the Secret Ingredient would help out a smuggler, but I didn't feel that I could give you full points since the only reason stated for becoming a darkrunner was so that you could charge double for jobs. That doesn't sound like much of a reason to devote half your life to something. Scoring stands.

DMG pg 170. contains most of the information on subraces, most of the information is gleaned from the same term being used from Gold Dwarves, Deep Dwarves, Whisper Gnomes, etc. which are listed a subraces and very much fall under their parent racial type. Since the deep w/e specifically uses the term subrace I'm very inclined to believe that it is a human subtype. Riddick isn't my character and I don't think it'll make much of a difference in the standings (I'm fairly sure those flaws are still gonna stick that build with a 1 in elegance).

The rules on page 170 of the DMG are guidelines for the DM who wants to create their own subraces. Nowhere is a subrace clearly defined; I've checked the glossaries. As such, we're left with the problem of Deep Imaskar not being identified as humanoid (human) while other races--illumians and underfolk, for example--are. That being said, if the build's creator would like to lodge a dispute I'd be happy to review. Otherwise, I appreciate your perspective but my scoring stands.

For the sake of not having to deal with the FTQ issue:

Orion Garranan, I think you are confusing two different things, caster level and level of spell cast. Obtain familiar requires "Knowledge (arcana) 4 ranks, arcane caster level 3rd," and does not rely on the level of a spell cast. Which means you need to jump up to the previous paragraph where it says "creatures that use spell-like abilities or invocations instead of spells use either their fixed caster level or their class level to determine qualification", which Factotum states "Your caster level equals your level in this character class". When Orion takes the feat they are a 3rd level caster.

The problem is that Obtain Familiar requires an arcane caster level, and while the factotum's ability is named "arcane dilettante," it never actually specifies whether the caster level given is arcane or divine.

Ihlmrhys Do'ar, the FTQ is correct, or at least I can't see a way around the FTQ with the build as written. However, the issue really is a FTQ for Noble Heart Paladin and not a FTQ for the SI.

The problem here is that Ihlmrhys is gaining Track via the Noble Heart paladin sublevels. Without the sublevel, the build doesn't gain Track and fails to qualify for the Secret Ingredient.

Esmar Tuek, this build takes Knowledge Devotion at level 3 with Dungeoneering as the gained class skill, which does give it the ranks needed. You can see the builder even put * next to the cross-class skills as appropriate in the build.

The problem here is that Esmar doesn't have Know: Dungeoneering as a class skill, so by level 3 he can't gain the 5 ranks required to take Knowledge Devotion in the first place. By 4th level, he could only have 3.5 ranks in Know: Dungeoneering and thus couldn't qualify for the Secret Ingredient.

Steven, the build takes 2 survival starting off at level 1 as a cross class skill, and then doesn't add to it until Trapsmith which they continue to cross class. The travel domain for survival isn't even used, which is good because as you pointed out they grabbed the devotion feat instead.

The problem here is that, since Steven never gains Survival as a class skill, by the time he enters Darkrunner the maximum number of cross-class ranks he could have invested is 5. Thus, he'd be unable to qualify for the Secret Ingredient.

Muggins

2014-06-11, 06:21 AM

OMG PONIES

2014-06-11, 06:44 AM

Any suggestions from my fellow judges about how to rate a FtQ build's Use of the Secret Ingredient when it, well, doesn't qualify for the Secret Ingredient (and thus doesn't have any of the abilities)?

I was always on the fence about this, but have found something that seems to work well for me. If you don't qualify for the SI, you receive a -0.5 penalty in UoSI. If you qualify but don't really do much of anything with the prereqs squeak into the class, there's no penalty or bonus. If you qualify and make some other use of the prereqs, that's a +0.5 bonus in UoSI. While it initially seemed like a low deduction for something that I thought was a Big Deal, in practice it means that there will be at least a 1 point difference between a build which doesn't qualify and a build that manages to qualify and go on to leverage the prereqs.

If you deem a build illegal due to a failure to qualify, there's always the option to give it a 0 in Elegance, but I feel that tanks the score and should be used only in dire circumstances. Whether you meet all the prereqs or not, creating an entry takes a crazy amount of time--I don't want to write off any decent work the chef did thematically or by tinkering around with the class features just because they messed up their skill ranks, for instance. I don't want to handwave it, either, though; a build is only fully optimized if it actually works after all. But in my time I've begun to view it as a small part of the buffalo rather than the whole thing. YMMV, but I've found that a scored build will at least receive less disputes than one that is refused scoring :smallwink:.

relytdan

2014-06-11, 07:38 AM

Since the speak language issue seems to be relevant for both Foe Hunter builds, I wanted to get a general conversation about it going on.

Foe Hunter requires the ability to speak the language if there is one. I've been scouring the interwebz looking for an aberration language and one for the abolethic sovergnity doesn't have one either.

Abberations don't have a solid language, many speak undercommon but some speak giant and not undercommon.

Aboleths do but it is a group not a race and includes all the enslaved minion, which is interesting because it works like dominate person and that requires common language. So one could surmise the undercommon would be the language, since they don't have access to common, but that's just a guess since it doesn't exist RAW anywhere.

So it looks to me that there isn't a language for either of the favored enemies, but I wanted to get other opinions about it since the topic was brought up.

on the subject of "Languages" this is a list that I found and it may not be entirely accurate but should be a fairly complete list of languages:
Aboleth
Abysal
Aquan
Armandish
Blink Dog
Celestial
Common
Draconic
Dragon
Druidic
Dwarven
Elven
Giant
Gith
Gnoll
Gnome
Goblin
Gol-kaa
Halfling
Ignan
Illumian
Infernal
Lumi
Lupin
Orc
Slaad
Suloise
Sylvan
Terran
Treant
Undercommon
Worg
Yuan-ti
Zern

Sian

2014-06-11, 07:43 AM

relytdan

2014-06-11, 07:54 AM

Chairmain's inbox is full -

OMG PONIES

2014-06-11, 08:04 AM

as Favored/Hated enemy are Abarrations, and not aboleths (although they might be target of Aberration Specialist), Aboleth doesn't fit the requirements for Foe Hunter, unless you want to houserule it as such.

Interesting point, I kept reading "one creature" instead of "one creature type." However, this is more interesting, as it reads "one creature type that she has already selected as a favored enemy..." Given that wording, looking at our two foe hunter builds:

Graima had selected aberrations as her favored enemy at level 4, so she qualifies for Foe Hunter.
Esmar is more of a wrinkle, as he has no valid selections for hated foe. Since the Golden Hands sublevel specifies that his favored enemy must be an organization while Foe Hunter specifies a creature type that he has already selected as a favored enemy, he can qualify for Foe Hunter but cannot make use of the class features provided. Since this is another "can of worms" scenario with possible bearing on other parts of his score, I leave it to Esmar's creator to determine whether he would like to dispute the qualification deduction.

dysprosium

2014-06-11, 08:45 AM

Any suggestions from my fellow judges about how to rate a FtQ build's Use of the Secret Ingredient when it, well, doesn't qualify for the Secret Ingredient (and thus doesn't have any of the abilities)?

For what it is worth, when I judge a build that I believe does not qualify for the Secret Ingredient, I give that category a 0 and explain why it did not qualify in my opinion. I've always seen Elegance as what the "rest" of the build does or does not do.

Kuulvheysoon

2014-06-11, 09:33 AM

chairman your Mailbox is full

Chairmain's inbox is full -Indeed I am not a fan of the new Forum's way of handling PMs - no warning that I was approaching full! I'll post the disputes that I received right now but Judges: I received at least a half dozen "Inbox Full" emails last night.
To all judges

First of all thank you for your time and effort :)
Now on to disputes.

Preqs for the feat are:

Ability to cast arcane spells without preparation.

This does not specify the need to be an arcane caster, just the ability to spontaneously cast spells. From what I can gather Tieflings have the innate ability to cast Darkness, not just use it as an SLA. The reason for this is the way it's worded in the MM.

Darkness (Sp): A tiefling can use darkness once per day (caster level equal to class levels).

There is no mention of it being an SLA such as those granted to say the Drow

—Spell-Like Abilities: Drow can use the following spell-like abilities once per day: dancing lights, darkness, faerie fire. Caster level equals the drow’s class levels.

This leads me to believe that the tiefling does actually cast the spell. To confirm it however I looked through the other source material and found this from the FRCS

Darkness (Sp): Tieflings can use darkness once per day as cast by a sorcerer of their charachter level.

In both cases for the tiefling the ability to use Darkness is a special quality and not an SLA. I believe this meets the prerequisite requirement for Fiendish Bloodline as presented by the Dragon Compendium.

In choosing between the version posted in RoF versus that in the DC, according to my understanding of the contest rules, we have to used the most recently published version. RoF was published in 2003, and the DC in 2005, As a result I deferred to the DC.

This was a goof on my part. Wasn't paying attention and I should've swapped the placement of Swift Hunter and Outsider Wings.

I was really gritting my teeth here. Honestly I wanted to add in those two levels of Ranger, and at least one more level of Cavestalker, but to do so, I would have had to Either lose my fighter levels, and the feats I needed for my combat style, or sacrifice too many levels of Darkrunner to get all the necessary abilities and avoid penalties. This was unfortunately a no win scenario from the beginning and I ultimately had to go with what I felt was going to result in the fewest penalties and max out my levels of Darkrunner at the cost of Ranger and Cavestalker levels.

Muggins: Hahahaha, I was wondering who (if anyone) would catch that FTQ. The original draft of the build used travel domain to qualify...and on the last draft I forgot and said "That's dumb, I should be using travel devotion." and switched it at the last moment.

The deeper irony here is me entirely not caring about a near identical error in your last Junkyard Round, but Steven's a mile from ranking anyways, so it doesn't really matter.

Deadline

2014-06-11, 10:15 AM

https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/5299762688/h8D44CD6A/

Ranger was the low hanging fruit of expected entries here. Given the wide variety of races with Darkvision, I'm going to forgo my usual docking of expected races. While all 15 entries were good, you'll see that several had issues in both Elegance and Use of the Secret Ingredient. Remember, proof-read your entries, double check that you qualify for everything (or at least qualify for the SI), and do something to either enhance each element of the SI, or come up with a use for them that isn't obvious or listed in the SI entry.

Special Note: Given that this SI has a fluff requirement, I've decided not to give out an automatic 1 to anyone who fails to qualify for the SI based solely on the fluff requirement. I will instead be giving those builds a minor deduction in Elegance.

My comments aren't meant to be mean, just critical.

Ryld - 13.5

Originality: 4
Ryld is an interesting build. A former captive of mindflayers who flees into the darkness and learns to survive in the school of hard knocks. A lost soul who finally finds a home. Lesser Tiefling was a nice touch to pick up easy boosts to both Dex and Int. Ranger was very much expected (and Arcane Hunter might as well be a basic class feature of Ranger, with how often it is taken). However, Drow Fighter came as a surprise (even more so when I realized it was an ACF that didn't require you to be a Drow). Scout was a solid alternative to Ranger, and Cavestalker adds some nice synergy. Darkstalker is almost a given, but Fiendish Bloodline and Outsider Wings were definitely neat to see. Given your focus on ranged combat and the SI's propensity for fighting while standing in difficult terrain, your choice of Flyby Attack is odd, but can be situationally useful.

Power: 3.25
You state that your primary role is a scout, which needs reasonable stealth, and good abilities to locate threats. You also state that tracking is an important role you fill. In addition to these, you fill a ranged combatant role. So let's take a look at how you manage to wear all these hats.

First, lets take the scout role. You have excellent stealth capabilities, and fantastic Darkvision range. Your movement options are also good with the addition of flight (which unfortunately generally invalidates your mobility skills like climb and jump). You run into a fairly serious problem, however, when it comes to your detection abilities. You've got a weak Listen score (even with Lesser Cavesense and Alertness), and your Spot isn't top notch either. You're only going to be locating threats that aren't attempting to be stealthy, or are already within 30 ft (from Tremorsense). You put in quite a bit of effort to get long range darkvision, and then don't really do anything with it.

Second, the tracker role. Your Survival skill is excellent, and you've picked up Track as a bonus feat from Ranger. You are a tracking machine, and can really provide for your party in either a wilderness setting, or underground.

Lastly, lets talk about your role in combat. You've set yourself up as a ranged character reasonably well. Your skirmish and favored enemy damage (which are both precision damage) sadly won't be of much use to you with Manyshot (you'd need Greater Manyshot to apply precision damage to each arrow), but you can plink away at range. You hit the all important +16 BAB to at least make sure you can get the maximum number of arrows in the air.

All in all, your power curve is pretty steady, but it's also nothing special. In other words, it's pretty close to a baseline average Darkrunner.

Elegance: 3.5
The build is well sourced, and qualifies for almost everything (and yes, I checked - Drow Fighter doesn't require you to be a Drow, and Tiefling Darkvision does not appear to be granted by being an Outsider, so Lesser Planetouched doesn't take it away). I have serious doubts as to whether or not you qualify for the Fiendish Bloodline feat from the Dragon Compendium. I know spell-like abilities can qualify for pre-requisites that require the ability to cast a specific spell, but I'm not sure they count for pre-requisites that require the ability to spontaneously cast spells. That said, the feat gives you no benefit, even if you qualify. Also, it is entirely different than the Fiendish Bloodline feat in Races of Faerun, so this is the case of two different feats with the same name, not an updated feat. You would have been much better off taking the feat in Races of Faerun, as it would have provided you an actual benefit.

Your entry was easy to read and was nicely laid out, so thanks for that. The build flows reasonably well, with levels taken to avoid multi-classing penalties. The 2 level dips in Drow Figher and Arcane Hunter Ranger make sense in the context of your build. You entered the SI as early as possible (but did so apparently just to splash the first level), but then delay the SI until the end of your build, meaning that for most of your character's lifespan, it's not really a Darkrunner. Picking up Track as a bonus feat from Ranger is nice, and I liked the use of Drow Fighter to trade away feats that you don't use for a bonus that helps you out.

Barring potential cries of foul with the Fiendish Bloodline and Outsider Wings (some folks might not consider a Lesser Tiefling to be a Tiefling), it's a pretty portable build.

Use of the Secret Ingredient: 2.75
So, how did you do with the SI? Let's take a look. We'll start with the pre-requisites. You max Survival and Knowledge(Dungeoneering), which is good. You abandon Search, though. You don't really do anything with Alertness (your Listen and Spot aren't well cared for), but picking up Track as a bonus feat was a nice way to qualify without sacrificing much (and you've got the Survival skill to make use of the feat, as well as using it to qualify for Cavestalker).

So what about the actual class features? You have no listed use for Direction Sense or the Darkrunner Emblem. You barely use Spelunking (for Survival only), as Climb and Jump bonuses are mostly irrelevant to a flier (Escape Artist and Swim would have been handy, but you never take them). You do minorly enhance Climb and Jump with Advanced Spelunker from Cavestalker though. You don't do anything in particular with Aberration Lore. You greatly enhance your natural Darkvision with the addition of Cavestalker, which is further enhanced by the SI. Cavefighting, Tunnelport and Tremorsense are all just there, with no noted use, enhancment, or trick. Lore of the Stones helps you in the tracking role you have set yourself up for. Aberration Specialist gets a slight use via your Arcanist Favored enemy feature, but Aberration Lore suffers. Deepsong, Improved Cavefighting, Greater Tunnelport and Stonewalking all receive no love in your build.

Ultimately, with the inclusion of Darkstalker and Manyshot, it looks like you tried to build a Cavestalker using mostly Darkrunner. Why wouldn't you just use more Cavestalker and ditch Darkrunner? This just doesn't feel much like a Darkrunner build.

Richard B. Riddick - 12

Originality: 4
Deep Imaskari? Telflammar Shadowlord? Jaunter? Astral Tracking? Keen Eared Scout? Man, there is a lot to like here. I guess I should have expected a shadow pouncer, but it still caught me by surprise. I've not really fiddled with Deep Imaskari, and they are a neat race. I do like the Jaunter class, and the two feats I mentioned were both new to me (and you use them well). Factotum isn't a surprise, and while Fighter is a bit surprising, it's also very boring. Darkstalker is par for the course for any sneaking build. Using Otherworldly to pick up the racial darkvision requirement was neato-frito. And then you had to go and slap it on a Riddick expy. Oh well, it's still neat.

Power: 3.75
So, just what can your Darkrunner do? He can scout and track like a boss, that's what. Keen-eared Scout is nicely used here, as is Astral Tracking (no matter where your prey goes, you can find it!).

Sadly, for a Riddick expy, he doesn't fight very well. You don't hit the very useful BAB +16, which hurts because you only get 3 attacks per round. So at best you can land 4 attacks with +2d6 Sneak Attack dice. Rather importantly, you can't shadow pounce (see elegance).

Versatility, however, is yours to command out of combat. You've got excellent skills, a few little boosts from Factotum, and some handy utility spells (and possibly maneuvers, although I don't really know what maneuvers you selected aside from Assassin's Stance). Jaunter gets your mobility really moving.

Elegance: 1
If you read the OP, you'll see this bit under the Elegance category:

Use of flaws is an automatic loss of one point per flaw in this category.

That's part of what happened here. Aside from that, you've got some other issues. First off, you don't technically qualify for the SI due to a lack of fulfilling the fluff requirement. As I stated above, it's a minor deal, so you get a small deduction in Elegance. You also don't qualify for Telflammar Shadowlord. You don't fulfill the Special requirement (either be from Thesk, or have 2 ranks of Knowledge (Local)). Given that you qualifying for Otherworldly negates the possibility that you can qualify for Telflammar Shadowlord via the region option, that leaves 2 ranks of Knowledge(Local), which you never get. You also don't list an alignment, Telflammar Shadowlord must be non-good (but this is relatively minor). Technically, you also never qualify for Jaunter (it requires that you have visited another plane, which I see no evidence of), but that's relatively minor in comparison to the SI and Shadowlord.

Your build is sourced and layed out well enough. You also enter the SI as early as possible, and not just to splash it. Everything generally flows together well, despite the galring Factotum dip. I like that you avoided multiclass penalties.

Use of the Secret Ingredient: 3.25
You make use of the Alertness feat to qualify for Keen-Eared scout, further enhancing your scouting role (and enhancing your Tremorsense). You are an excellent tracker (especially with Astral Tracker), and utilize all of the entry skills aside from Search (which you don't completely abandon, but it suffers from neglect). Otherworldly is certainly a unique way to qualify for the SI's darkvision requirement, and turning Tunnelport into shadow pouncing is a great way to enhance the SI. Sneak Attack gives you a slight useage for part of Cavefighting (the boost to initiative).

Unfortunately, you don't have a listed use for any of the other features of the SI, and you even wind up overshadowing some of them. Your teleportation abilities from Jaunter are more useful than Tunnelport, your Shadowsight from Telflammar Shadowlord is better than darkvision, and you don't take the last 3 levels of the SI. This normally wouldn't be a problem if you were picking up the same general things elsewhere (Jaunter gives you abilities better than Greater Tunnelport), but you miss out on Improved Cavefighting (for Int to damage so you can use your Inspiration points on attack rolls instead) and you completely miss out on Stonewalking. Sadly, you don't use much of the SI for anything.

Also, while Riddick doesn't strike me as a Darkrunner (he's more like one of the things you should be afraid of in the dark), he does spend pretty much the entirety of Pitch Black leading a group of people through the darkness, and fights against gribbly horrors from beyond, so it kinda works.

Skitters - 15.75

Originality: 4
A plucky little kobold guide who specializes in getting out of the way and hiding is certainly fun. Your inclusion of Tunnel Fighting, Evasive Reflexes, Keen-Eared Scout and Hindering Opportunist is both useful and flavorful. I've never even heard of Prime Underdark Guide, and it works wonderfully here. Kobolds are neat, and you use the race well. Your choice of skill tricks help reinforce the theme and skillset of the build. Ranger was expected, and Darkstalker is practically mandatory on any stealth build.

I could see a party growing very attached to a Skitters NPC.

Power: 3.75
You've got versatility in spades. Skill heavy, the ability to aid your allies, and your ability to evade your foe are all excellent. You are a very good scout and tracker, and have the detection skills to make use of your enhanced darkvision range. Your Move Silently skill suffers a bit, as does your Search skill. Your spellcasting is very limited, but can provide a nice benefit here and there. Corner perch gives you a relatively safe perch to shoot at your foes from, and your other two skill tricks can come in handy. Your support ability is pretty fantastic, and has put Prime Underdark Guide on my short list of prestige classes to remember.

However, you are not much use in combat. Sure, you can aid another, but when that is among your best options in combat, you are definitely in trouble. You can put out a little bit of damage in ranged combat, which is to say that you are a little above the party wizard shooting his crossbow at enemies. Being able to crawl into a diminutive hole is hilarious, as long as it can't be filled with water.

Elegance: 4
Your build is well sourced, and you qualify for everything you take. I particularly appreciate your Class Feature Showcase, it's very helpful. The build flows well through all levels, but you enter the SI as late as possible (and still be able to finish it), so you spend quite a bit of time not being a Darkrunner. This is just a clean, straightforward build, and I can't imagine any DM refusing it. The only other quibble I've got here is your interpretation of how Direction Sense and Underdark Lore interact. Direction Sense is very clear that you must be in your directional focus in order to study it, and that you must study it for 8 hours. To me, that is much more specific than having heard of the place before (or even having been there before).

Use of the Secret Ingredient: 4
Given that you nicely laid out this information, let's give it an easy rundown. You do a great job of building on the pre-requisites. You use Alertness and Track to qualify for other feats and Prestige Classes that further enhance the SI. Spelunking and Darkvision both get some love, and Cavefighting (and Improved Cavefighting) even get a boost from your corner perch skill trick. You enhance Tremorsense with Keen-Eared scout and Point It Out. Aberration Lore gets a small boost from your Favored Enemy feature.

However, you don't have a good use for any of the other abilities, you just "have" them. I suppose an argument could be made for the Darkrunner Emblem use, but it's minor enough to not matter score-wise.

Skitters is a good fit for the SI, and the build really evokes the flavor of the SI.

The Ariadne - 15.25

Originality: 4
A changeling adopted into a Hobgoblin tribe who emulates Hobgoblins and stalks the Underdark is interesting. I love Racial Emulation (I used it to fun effect in the Urban Soul round), and you've melded quite a few abilities here into something tasty. I liked the idea of petrifying foes and then interrogating them, even if it doesn't work (see elegance). Ranger was expected (urban ranger was a nice twist), but Stonedeath Assassin is pretty neat. Darkstalker pretty much has to be there, but you've got a nice light seasoning of Shadow Hand stuff that works well here. Using the Dark template to qualify for the Darkvision requirement is pretty snazzy. I always like to see well placed skill tricks, they really add a little flair.

Power: 3.75
As a scout, Ariadne is solid. Excellent sneaking skills, excellent detection skills, and a couple of handy skill tricks. The dark template really helps your stealth out, as do Stoneskulk Cloak of Deception. Stonedeath Assassin brings in several useful abilities, as well as some Sneak Attack for some much needed punch. She is an ok tracker, and her inclusion of Earth Devotion and Planar Touchstone add a little more to her in-combat abilities. Escape Artist provides a ready defense to grappling. However, Ariadne has a few design issues that should be addressed. The inclusion of two-weapon fighting is good (particularly to get more sneak attack), but also not well supported. Weapon Finesse helps to ameliorate the low strength and low-BAB issue (as well as Spot the Weak Point), but she still suffers a damage penalty to attacks (until she hits 16th level, where it's largely drowned out), and hitting is not a guarantee. In other words, it's a good thing you get TWF as a bonus feat. It's probably unwise to select Illithids as your Aberration Specialty with such a horrible will save. She also has no real versatility. She's a scout and skirmisher, and that's pretty much it. If it weren't for the inclusion of Stonedeath Assassin and a few feats, she'd be a model baseline build.

Elegance: 3.75
Nicely laid out, easy to read, and well sourced. You qualify for everything, and the build flows well except for the jump to Stonedeath Assassin after splashing Darkrunner. I'm not sure why you did that, as it seems like Stonedeath Assassin levels could have come at any point in the build, and not interrupted the SI. I did like that your sweet spot came so early in the build, and the clean mix of classes is pleasing. The main thing I wanted to address here, however, is Ariadne's advertised trick of using Lore of the Stones on a petrified creature. Sadly, this does not work, because a petrified creature is neither natural nor unworked stone. More to the point, a petrified creature isn't an object either (this ruling came up in the Cipher Adept round too). It's very cool and flavorful, and I'd let it ride on rule of cool at my table, but it's something that some DM's might frown upon.

Use of the Secret Ingredient: 3.75
You made solid use of one of the entry skills. You picked up both feat pre-requisites as bonus feats, which is nice. You have a use for Cave Fighting/Improved Cavefighting, Tremorsense, a partial use of Spelunking, and Lore of the Stones (it doesn't work, but it's a neat idea).

Unfortunately, the majority of the class doesn't get any love. You pump up your Escape Artist skill, which is good, but you start to neglect your Survival skill (granted, Spelunking gives you a benefit there).

The build works as a Darkrunner, but it just doesn't stand out. It has all of the iconic abilities, but very few of them are put to any use. I liked the concept, there just needed to be more of a showcasing of her abilities. I think Stonedeath Assassin was a really good spice to add here, but you seemed to lose focus on the SI because of it. With a little more polish, I think Ariadne could really shine.

Orion Garranan - 12.5

Originality: 3.75
Wow, I had to dig to find Eneko, and Primordial is almost always good. I liked the use of Savant here, but Factotum really provides the oomph for this dish. I didn't pick up much on Orion as an entity, so it's hard to say anything about him here. Supernatural Transformation is a neat way to enhance your Invisibility spell-like ability.

Power: 3.75
Orion can provide some limited (but very useful) support. He's an excellent scout, as long as his foes can't see through his invisibility. You don't list any hide or move silent ranks, so I'm left with what you stated in your entry - that you only placed 1 rank in each (i.e. you placed 1 rank in all the skills after getting the ones you listed). Orion has some great versatility with UMD, Arcane Dilettante, 8 levels worth of Factotum goodies, and can operate as a face character. But what he can't seem to do is participate all that well in combat (aside from Intimidation, which he does very well). Factotum does pretty much all the heavy lifting here. Once he picks up Improved Cavefighting, he can dish out damage after he's set up the battlefield with Earth Devotion. Unfortunately, that doesn't come online until 17th level. Before that, he's left burning Inspiration to be more than a mild annoyance in combat.

Elegance: 2.75
The build is sourced, and laid out well enough. Alertness via familiar is clever. But there are three things that jump out immediately to me. The first is that you didn't take the time to finish your entry. I will judge the build as presented, but I won't build it for you. So I considered the skills you listed, as well as your note that you took 1 rank in every other skill. Aside from that, I won't play Schrödinger's skill points to try and complete your entry for you. I would suggest you finish your builds for future competitions. The second is that if your familiar dies or is dismissed, you have to make a DC 15 Fort save or lose xp. Given that you take a Rat familiar, then replace it with an Earth Mephit, and have a terrible Fort save, this is a recipe for lost xp. And lastly, your level dip in Savant means that you wind up taking multiclass penalties. You enter the SI early, but only to splash it and leave the rest for the end of your build.

There's also a distinct possibility that you might not qualify for a Obtain Familiar. But since I can't quite sort that mess out, and given that Warlocks qualify for it, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt here.

Use of the Secret Ingredient: 2.25
You ditch most of the prerequisites, but you do make use of Survival. Savant helps you to make use of a few of your Darkrunner skills by letting your party use your Listen skill. Earth Devotion lets you make good use of Cavefighting and Improved Cavefighting. Unfortunately, you pretty much ditch everything else.

So, here's the dreaded question, why Darkrunner? Why not more Savant? Why not more Factotum? This really doesn't feel like a Darkrunner build, and it clearly would have been better of leaving the SI in the pantry.

Ihlmrhys Do'ar - 11.75

Originality: 4
A Lesser Drow Paladin bringing the mercy of the Martyred God to the Underdark is certainly fun. Noble Heart Paladin was something I had to look up (I like it), and Underdark Knight is awesome (especially for Earthglide at Paladin 12). I like the vibe that comes across for this character and build.

Power: 3.75
Ihlmrhys has a solid BAB, but suffers a little in the damage department until he picks up Shadow Blade. He's got smiting for bursts of damage, and Earth Glide helps with mobility. He's even got a small smattering of Paladin spells to bust out when needed. Your Earth Devotion/Spike Stones trick is neat, and provides some handy battlefield control. Divine Grace ensures that his saves are good. However, as you pointed out, his skills are pretty terrible across the board, leaving him with several skills that will be hard pressed to be meaningful in appropriate CR encounters.

Elegance: 3
Everything is nicely laid out and sourced. The level split here is good, and the build flows well at pretty much all levels. Picking up Track as a bonus feat would help lessen feat starvation, but you don't qualify for Noble Heart (see UotSI). You don't get into Darkrunner until late in the build, but otherwise this is build has a solid feel to it. I like it, and if it weren't for the failure to qualify for Noble Heart, I couldn't imagine many DMs having any issues with it.

Use of the Secret Ingredient: 1
So, you don't qualify for the Noble Heart substitution level, as per page 34 of Champions of Valor (which states you also need 1 rank of Knowledge(Religion)). Given how tight your skills are, I think this pretty much shoots you in the foot here. I'm going to provide my writeup anyway, but you get a 1 here for not qualifying for the SI.

You do the best you can with what you work with, but you pretty much don't use any of the entry requirements. You make solid use of Darkvision, Cavefighting, and Improved Cavefighting. Earth Devotion is the prime thing that builds on the SI here. Underdark Knight improves your Darkvision further, but you lack the Spot ranks to fully take advantage of it. Your listed use of Direction Sense doesn't work, you have to be in the location you want to set as your directional focus, and study it for 8 hours. Pretty much every other ability from Darkrunner is left unenhanced. Not taking the last two levels doesn't hurt you much, however, because you make up for it. Underdark Knight more than makes up for the lost Darkvision boost, and Earth Glide is more potent than Stonewalking. About the only thing you lose out on is Greater Tunnelport, which doesn't hurt too much.

Mechanics aside, Ihlmrhys really evokes the feel of Darkrunner. It's a tasty dish.

Adlib - 17.25

Originality: 4
Underfolk is certainly different, and human paragon? Neat. Your focus on skills and skill tricks is awesomely noteworthy, and great googly moogly you used the destiny feats from Races of Destiny. I've only seen one other build here do that, and it worked really well, so I'm glad to see them here. The madlib thing was cute, otherwise unhelpful.

Power: 4.25
Ok, let's see what you've got. You are a terrific scout (though the lack of Darkstalker is glaring). Between your skill tricks, your ability to take 10 on almost all the meaningful Darkrunner skills, and max ranks in all of them, you've got magnificent mobility skills, tracking, and grapple defense. The destiny feats are nice for a couple of get out of jail free options (but they are expensive options). You've got some great versatility. That said, your advertised combat abilities only last for as long as you have Inspiration points to burn. After you run out of Inspiration points, your combat contributions drop by half. Basically, your build has some issues with consistent power levels.

Elegance: 5
This build is pretty clean. Everything is sourced, and the layout is easy to read. You qualify for everything you took, and the build is generally solid all the way through. The only thing I can think of that might be of issue is whether or not Underfolk qualify as humans, but in my book if it has the Humanoid(Human) type and subtype, it qualifies.

Use of the Secret Ingredient: 4
Let's see how you did. You make good use of the entry requirements by taking max ranks in the skill requirements (and having the ability to take 10 in all of them from Exemplar). The Lend Talent ability of Exemplar adds a use for all of your class skills, and Trapfinding from Factotum adds a use for your maxed Search skill. You make massive use of the SI's class skills, which is great to see. Surprisingly, you are one of the only entries to benefit from the SI's Weapon Proficiencies. You enhance Spelunking via Exemplar, and Knowledge Devotion gives you enhanced benefit from Aberration Lore and Aberration Specialist. Cavefighting and Improved Cavefighting benefit marginally from Factotum, but you have no way of reliably generating difficult terrain. Unfortunately, the rest of the SI is mere sitting there.

The build here is great. If you could have given more focus to the SI, or given a sample of the feel for the character, that would have helped here. As it is, you did good.

Graima - 14

Originality: 4
Foe Hunter? Lurk? Warlock? You have my attention! Blend Into Shadows and Crossbow Sniper are fun, and Whisper Gnomes are super sneaky. Ranger was expected, and Darkstalker is all but mandatory on a sneaking build. All in all though, this is a neat little package of vengeance upon Aberrations.

Power: 3
You are a good scout with excellent stealth and perception skills. You can trapfind (as long as you are psionically focused), and you can track. All good things. Foe Hunter adds some nice oomph to your combat abilities against aberrations. But even with Crossbow Sniper, your chosen method of engaging foes is dicey at best. Early on you are unlikely to remain hidden for long, and at later levels, you will plinking away at your foes for a long time and giving them ample opportunity to call for reinforcements, escape, etc. I have to admit, I'm a little bit surprised to not see Able Sniper here.

Elegance: 4.25
There's some good stuff here. The build is nicely laid out, and qualifies for everything. Everything is sourced. You jump into the SI as early as possible, and stick with it for a good while before interrupting it again. Picking up Track as a bonus feat was nice. My only real complaint here are the three dips you put forth.

Use of the Secret Ingredient: 2.75
Brass tacks time. You did well with the prerequisites. Gnome favored enemy gives a boost to your perception skills as well as enhancing Aberration Lore and Aberration Specialist. That said, you didn't really have any interesting use or enhancement for any of the other abilities. You do mention an interesting use for Tunnelport (teleporting around traps), so I'll give you that. But everything else is just "there".

I love that you used Foe Hunter, but I'm afraid I have to ask the Dreaded Question, why didn't you just go with more Foe Hunter rather than Darkstalker? The focus here certainly seemed to be more on stalking and killing your chosen prey, rather than dealing with the SI. It definitely feels like there was some potential here. With a little more focus on the SI's abilities, you could have really scored well.

Roy - 13.25

Originality: 2.75
Let's see, dwarf, ranger, warblade, ubercharger. All pretty standard (and ranger was expected). But Deepstone Sentinel? At first I was skeptical about this, but thematically it fits well. A dwarf who can not only speak with the earth, but can command it as well? That's pretty snazzy. I can also appreciate the Bladerunner reference.

Power: 4
As an ubercharger, you are quite competent in melee, as expected. Your skills are competent, but you may struggle to hit your DC's in appropriate CR encounters. Maneuvers add extra punch, but it's not like you needed it. The battlefield control you get, however, is a nice addition. You aren't terribly versatile, but you are a very credible melee threat.

Elegance: 4.5
The build is nicely laid out and flows well. You qualified for everything you took. Snagging Track as a bonus feat is nice. However, you sneak in a Multiclass penalty at 15th level, which is going to cause you problems. Aside from that, I don't see anything that jumps out as being a problem for most tables.

Use of the Secret Ingredient: 2
Well ... you enhance Aberration Lore and Aberration Specialist with Favored Enemy. That ... that's pretty much it. Your Mountain Fortress doesn't trigger Cavefighting, because it doesn't make your square difficult terrain. Why did you take the SI again? It really seems like you'd have been better off with just doing a Warblade/Deepstone Sentinel ubercharger.

Esmar Tuek - 15.25

Originality: 4
Another Foe Hunter? I can't say I expected this class. And Martial Rogue with Web Enhancement substitution levels I haven't heard of to boot. It's great to see Quick Reconnoiter get some love. Let's see, you've got some feats here that I can't say I have much experience with: Gnome Tunnel Acrobatics, Undermountain Tactics, and Tunnel Fighting. And what the heck is False Pretenses? Huh, that's neat. Dwarf is pretty much the only thing here that's boring.

Power: 3.5
Ok, you've got some good skills to play with, mainly your perception skills. So you make a good lookout. Your mobility skills aren't bad (some of them will give you trouble in appropriate CR encounters), and you've got a solid knowledge skill. Your various tactics feats give you a host of options in combat besides hacking away. You make repeated mention of tumbling in full plate, but I don't see heavy armor proficiency anywhere in the build. Your BAB is low for a melee character, and your damage output isn't generally too hot against things that aren't Aberrations.

Elegance: 4.75
The build is nicely laid out, and you qualify for everything you took. The build flows well. You entered the SI as early as possible, and finished it before picking up anything else. Picking up Track as a bonus feat was nice. The only glaring issue here is the use of variant rules (False Pretenses is a Spelltouched feats, which are variant rules). While the choice of feat is flavorful, it's also subject to a minor penalty. In general, I don't see much that a reasonable DM would argue against.

Use of the Secret Ingredient: 3
You take a hit here. You keep one entry skill maxed, and the other two flag behind a little. You enhance Spelunking a bit with Tunnel Fighting, and Favored Enemy enhance Aberration Lore and Specialist when dealing with Aboleths from your stated organization. Aside from that, you don't really build on or enhance much of the SI.

That said, Esmar certainly feels like a Darkrunner, at least before he goes down the path of vengeance. I liked this build, and would have really liked to see it focus on the SI more.

Creb Covenant - 16.75

Originality: 4.75
Well, Sentinel of Bharrai and Spirit Shaman are straight out of left field. Those coupled with Hellbred just really threw me for a loop. It was neat to see Quick Recovery here. I'm still stunned at the appearance of all this stuff from BoED. It's a good thing that, like Creb, I've got Quick Recovery, or I wouldn't have recovered in time to judge the next category.

Power: 4.5
You've got up to 5th level spells from a solid list. That alone lets you be hugely versatile. You've got metamagic shenanigans you can play, some good skills, and a Bear form for combat. You don't hit +16 BAB, but you are close, and your bear form can really make up for that fact. The only real issue here is that your power level falls off once you jump into the SI, and never really recovers.

Elegance: 5
The entry is well laid out and easy to read. You qualify for everything you took, and the build flows well. There's really nothing here that I object to. It's a clean build, and I like that.

Use of the Secret Ingredient: 2.5
Yeah, I almost immediately had to ask why you took the SI in this build instead of more spellcasting. You took so much spellcasting, it is noticeably painful when you stopped. Sure, you use your spellcasting to enhance Cavefighting and it's Improved version, and Quick Recovery helps to minimize the risks with Stonewalking. But other than that there isn't anything else. There's not even a thematic connection I can see between bears, spirits, and the SI, despite your efforts to link them.

Don't get me wrong. I like Creb, and I think he's an interesting and potent character. I just think he'd have been better off without the SI.

Delehdas - 14.25

Originality: 3.75
Savage Bard and Horizon Walker are fun, and Underfolk is neat. Ranger is expected, and Darkstalker comes as no surprise. I liked the theme of someone seeking out the homelands of their ancestors by powering UP through the underdark.

Power: 3.5
Your skills are decent, with solid perception skills, maxed UMD, Diplomacy, and a Knowledge skill. Your stealth skills are ok. You are also an excellent tracker. You hit +16 BAB, which is good for a melee fighter. Your Bard spells give you some added versatility. Horizon Walker gives you a handful of nice benefits. Unfortunately, you fall behind in the damage department and never really catch up. In short, your power comes from your versatility, not your combat ability.

Elegance: 4.25
The build flows well, qualifies for everything taken, is well sourced and easy to read. You take the SI reasonably early, and take it to completion without interruption. You pick up Track as a bonus feat, which is goo. You've got Endurance listed twice, so you've wasted a feat slot that might have been more useful to you.

Use of the Secret Ingredient: 2.75
Favored Enemy and Improved Favored Enemy build on Aberration Lore and Specialist. And you use an entry skill to qualify for Horizon Walker. You really don't do much else with the SI though.

While I really enjoyed the thematic idea of dungeon delving in the opposite direction, you didn't do much to focus on the SI. The build still feels like a Darkrunner through most of it, but the inclusion of Horizon Walker just falls flat here. I think it's a case of adding the wrong spice to a promising dish.

Amaljss Myund - 12.75

Originality: 3.75
Well now. This is interesting, and risky. You eat 3 La for a Lolth-touched Drow. You got guts, I'll give you that. Favored Power Attack and Improved Favored Enemy were good additions. Swift Hunter isn't anything new, and ranger was expected. This is a fun concept of a good little drow male doing as he's told and slaying the enemies of his matriarchy.

Power: 3
You've got an excellent array of skills that support your role as a scout and tracker. Power attack is handy to bring the hurt ... but you've also gone the two-weapon fighting route (which doesn't mix well with power attack). More importantly, you don't have the BAB to really take advantage of either. You are also extremely fragile in your early levels.

Elegance: 3.25
The build flows reasonably well, and you qualify for everything you took. Your mix of classes is good. The build is not really sourced. Darkrunner comes online as last as it possibly can and still complete. You've also got issues with your fighting style selection. Power Attack and TWF are not chocolate and peanut butter, they are oil and water. The build is otherwise solid, and would be unlikely to raise any eyebrows in any DM's game, save for one that started at low level.

Use of the Secret Ingredient: 2.75
You kept all the entry skills as maxed as they can get. You enhance Aberration Lore and Specialist with Favored Enemy, Favored Power Attack, and Improved Favored Enemy. But aside from that, you don't really do anything with the SI.

Amaljss doesn't really sell me on being a Darkrunner. He's a good little male who hunts the foes he is told to hunt. The connection to Darkrunner just seems pretty tenuous.

Rizzo - 10.75

Originality: 3.75
A dragonborn out to kill all the Umberhulks is an interesting thing. Tunnel Fighting and Tunnel Fighter pique my interest. Warrior? You took an NPC class ... no, you took the Generic Warrior from Unearthed Arcana? Well, that's certainly a risky proposition in this competition. I'll toss you a few points here, because you are going to lose some in Elegance.

Power: 2.75
You are a good tracker, and can find traps. You've got a solid knowledge skill, and can reliably maneuver around foes in combat. You hit that tasty +16 BAB. Unfortunately, you'll struggle to do much in combat. You do pick up Power Attack (at 18th level), but prior to that, there isn't much. Darkstalker doesn't really do anything for you, as you have no ranks in hide, so you'll be trivially easy to spot. You used Generic Warrior, which nets you a bunch of tasty bonus feats (not just fighter bonus feats), which you use to grab a whole bunch of stuff that doesn't help your build (Power Attack being the only one that provides a strong benefit).

Elegance: 2.25
The build is nicely laid out and is easy to read. You qualify for everything you took. Picking up Track as a bonus feat was nice. You jump into the SI as early as possible, and finish it without interruption. You provide a list of sources, but don't specify what items go with what sources, so any time I encountered something I wasn't familiar with (Tunnelfighting), I had to crack open everything on your source list until I found it. You used a variat rules system (incorrectly too, you can't combine generic classes with regular classes), and didn't even leverage the power that gave you (not to mention the issues some DM's will have with it), so you take a hit here for that.

Use of the Secret Ingredient: 2
You max the entry skills, which is good. And Dragonborn gives you enhanced Darkvision range to couple with the SI. But then you don't really use any of the rest, or enhance them with anything in your build. Not only that, but there's nothing here that indicates why you took the SI instead of something else.

Steven - 12.75

Originality: 3.5
Steve the dwarf if all over the place. Trapsmith was a nice surprise, and setting traps to hinder your foes before they get to you works well with the SI. Staggering Strike is a classic. Swashbuckler was an interesting inclusion, and I like how it mixes with the SI. Cloistered Cleric dips are well known.

Power: 3.75
You are the only one here who tried to leverage Search, but with a Disable Device skill that low, you will have issues later in the build. You are half of a good lookout, have a smattering of solid knowledge skills, and have some interesting utility with Trapsmith. You get a handful of devotion feats from your cloistered cleric level, but no spellcasting, because 8 Wisdom. Staggering Strike is great. Getting Int to damage from Swashbuckler, and again from the SI (reliably with Earth Devotion) is a much needed boost.

Elegance: 2.75
The build is laid out well enough. It was easy to read and flows ok. Your sources were a little wonky for me, but that's probably because I'm used to seeing a list of them in the build, rather than embedded where they are used. You jump into the SI very late. You don't qualify for Practiced Spellcaster. And lastly, you are facing multiclass penalties for your two dips.

Use of the Secret Ingredient: 2.75
So, what do we have? You've got two of the entry skills at max, or near it. You build on your search skill to qualify for Trapsmith. Knowledge Devotion helps build on Aberration Lore and Specialist, and Swashbuckler 3's Int to damage doubles up with the SI all cozy-like when you use Earth Devotion to take advantage of Cavefighting/Improved Cavefighting. The rest of the class is left by the wayside, unfortunately.

This just doesn't evoke the feel of the SI. It honestly seems a bit rushed, but is too bad, because I really think if you had re-worked this a bit and focused more on the SI, you could have really shined here.

So there you have it. Let the wailing and gnashing of teeth commence!

dysprosium

2014-06-11, 11:02 AM

And a fourth judge steps forward with scores! Thank you for judging Deadline!

With more judges and more scores come more tables!
Four judges, mid disputes

Entry
Rama
OMG PONIES
Muggins
Deadline
Total
Place

Creb Covenant
17.5
15.5
17.5
16.75
67.25
1st

Skitters
17.75
17
16.75
15.75
67.25
1st

Ariadne
15.75
16.5
17.25
14.75
64.25
3rd

Adlib
15
16
16
17
64
4th

Delehdas
14.75
15
17
14.25
61
5th

Amaljss Myund
15.75
16
14
12.75
58.5
6th

Graima
13.75
15
15.5
14
58.25
7th

Roy
16
15
13
13.25
57.25
8th

Ryld
13
15
11.5
13.5
53
9th

Rizzo
10.5
14.5
14
11.25
50.25
10th

Richard B Riddick
9
8.5
8.25
12
37.75
11th

Entry
Rama
OMG PONIES
Muggins
Deadline
Total
Place

Esmar Tuek
16.75
15
--
15.25
47
Limbo 1

Ihlmrhys Do'ar
14
16
--
11.75
41.75
Limbo 2

Steven
12
11
--
12.75
35.75
Limbo 3

Orion Garranan
10.5
11.5
--
12.5
34.5
Limbo 4

Muggins

2014-06-11, 11:29 AM

Foreword, before I start talking disputes: I'm currently working on those scorings for the four FtQ builds, but I don't think they'll shake up the scores all that much. I wonder if we'll get a dispute from Skitters or Creb to break that 1st place tie.

Ryld: No alteration to scores.

Preqs for the feat are:

Ability to cast arcane spells without preparation.

This does not specify the need to be an arcane caster, just the ability to spontaneously cast spells. From what I can gather Tieflings have the innate ability to cast Darkness, not just use it as an SLA. The reason for this is the way it's worded in the MM.

Darkness (Sp): A tiefling can use darkness once per day (caster level equal to class levels).
There is no mention of it being an SLA such as those granted to say the Drow

—Spell-Like Abilities: Drow can use the following spell-like abilities once per day: dancing lights, darkness, faerie fire. Caster level equals the drow’s class levels.
This leads me to believe that the tiefling does actually cast the spell. To confirm it however I looked through the other source material and found this from the FRCS

Darkness (Sp): Tieflings can use darkness once per day as cast by a sorcerer of their charachter level.
In both cases for the tiefling the ability to use Darkness is a special quality and not an SLA. I believe this meets the prerequisite requirement for Fiendish Bloodline as presented by the Dragon Compendium.
The (Sp) tag stands for Spell-Like Ability. A Tiefling's ability to cast Darkness is therefore a Spell-Like Ability. Thus, it follows the same rules as other Spell-Like Abilities.

The Fiendish Bloodline feat from Dragon Compendium has the prerequisite "ability to cast arcane spells without preparation." Firstly, spell-like abilities are not arcane. Secondly, spell-like abilities are not spells. Result: You don't meet the prerequisites of this feat. Sorry. [B]Judging Stands.

[quote=Ryld]In choosing between the version posted in RoF versus that in the DC, according to my understanding of the contest rules, we have to used the most recently published version. RoF was published in 2003, and the DC in 2005, As a result I deferred to the DC.]
The Fiendish Bloodline feat from Dragon Compendium and the Fiendish Bloodline feat from Races of Faerun are wholly unrelated. It's not an update to an old feat, but a new feat with the same name (and, for the sake of differentiation, the [Bloodline] tag). Doesn't your claim seem odd if Fiendish Bloodline was "updated" but Outsider Wings never was? [B]Judging Stands

Steven: It's a shame, because if you'd held off on the Domain-to-Devotion swap then you would've qualified. As-is, you'll be getting a deduction in your final score (once I get it up).

AvatarVecna

2014-06-11, 12:04 PM

sakuuya

2014-06-11, 12:11 PM

I'm close to finishing my judging, but procrastination might delay me beyond the deadline; I might end up posting tomorrow, but might not, and it won't leave much time for disputes. I think I'll have to drop out from judging. If people want, I'll post my thoughts/judgings, and my latest update for my judgement criteria.
Sorry for bailing...

Aw, that's all right. Having four judges ain't too shabby. I'd personally like to hear whatever judging thoughts you have, but if they're unofficial, you might want to wait until after the deadline.

AvatarVecna

2014-06-11, 12:19 PM

Aw, that's all right. Having four judges ain't too shabby. I'd personally like to hear whatever judging thoughts you have, but if they're unofficial, you might want to wait until after the deadline.

Oh, I'm definitely waiting until after the deadline's over, and probably after final scores are posted, assuming I can't get my thoughts typed out in the 30 hours remaining. I agree; four judges isn't bad, and that a fifth who can't make it is relatively inexperienced anyway isn't a huge loss in any respect.

OMG PONIES

2014-06-11, 12:46 PM

Re: Ryld's dispute on Fiendish Bloodline, I'm assuming this dispute was also for me because I scored the same way. I see that Muggins already tackled the issue, and my response is the same in regards to the (Sp) tag. Everything else looked more like commentary than disputes; while it helps to have the response, perhaps that should wait until after the Big Reveal so the chef can openly make the "mea culpa" comments without cluttering the already-crowded dispute process? Just a thought. Scoring stands.

Please, do us judges a favor and indicate whose score is being disputed. We don't need a lengthy introduction, just a simple @Ponies or Re: OMG will do. This helps us make sure we haven't missed any disputes meant for us without having to read through everything intended for another judge.

Kuulvheysoon

2014-06-11, 01:15 PM

Disputes are starting to come back through!

@Muggins:
This is because "the language (if any) of the intended hared enemy" is a phrase which is open for dispute, discussion and disagreement. Your DM could rule that since Mind Flayers only speak Undercommon, you should know that. Your DM might rule that "the language" refers to a racial language, and that since Mind Flayers don't have one you don't need to meet the requirement. It's a questionable ruling, and I deducted you appropriately. Judging stands.

that i have Mind Flayers as my target for Aberration Specialist is not relevant, the question is if Aberrations (as a creature type) have a racial language.
@Muggins
Rizzo: No alteration.
Here you go (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm).
Judging stands.

**Rebuttle - Muggins did you really read this ?

**I Challenged you to show me the words that state CAN NOT, NOT ALLOWED, or BANNED for the generic classes.

**(EPIC FAIL for you) You mearly pasted the SRD reference for generic classes which is identical to UA page 76.

If you use these generic classes, you shouldn't also use the standard character classes (or variants of those classes).

**Good grief Muggins are you really that bent that the term shouldn't, SHOULD NOT is some how interpreted as can not, not allowed or banned ?

**where the heck are you getting that interpretation from?

**Definition
should·n't [shood-nt] contraction of should not.

should not
means not recommended although acceptable in particular circumstances but the full implications must be understood.

** if you had went the route of Questionable Rules, I would probly have seen the logic in that, but this is just plain silly.

**
revisit your scoring: This is something the build CAN do.

@Deadline:
thanks for you comments

Elegance:
you can't combine generic classes with regular classes), and didn't even leverage the power that gave you (not to mention the issues some DM's will have with it), so you take a hit here for that.

Well I have hammered all the other judges on this one, so its your turn.
Generic class If you use these generic classes, you shouldn't also use the standard character classes (or variants of those classes).
term shouldn't, SHOULD NOT is some how interpreted as can not, not allowed or banned ?

Definition
should·n't [shood-nt] contraction of should not.

should not
means not recommended although acceptable in particular circumstances but the full implications must be understood.

if you had went Questionable Rules, I would probly have seen the logic in that
@Deadline: I'm glad you enjoyed my build, and your overall assessment is accurate. However, I have a few points I would like to clarify.

Firstly, the reason that Stonedeath Assassin levels are intermixed is to build on the abilities as soon as possible. The first two levels are to bring stoneskulk into play, meaning Ariadne can use Hide anywhere, an ability that is greatly appreciated early on. The last 3 levels are so that one can enjoy the benefits of stonedeath strike for more levels, which I felt would be more appreciated than having limited earth glide.

Secondly, you say that lore of the stones cannot be used on a petrified creature. I realize that a petrified creature is not necessarily an object, but stone tell never makes any mention of objects, since the target is "you." As for a petrified creature not being "natural or unworked stone" I assume you meant "natural or worked stone," and I would consider a petrified creature to be worked stone, though I would understand if you still felt otherwise.

Thirdly, I would remind that while Ariadne's base will save is low, 5 (base) +2(deepsong) + 4 (aberration specialist) is an 11 will save vs illithids, 13 against charm monster due to changeling's racial bonus vs charm, so it's not as one-sided as it may seem.

Lastly, I wish to clarify that I do not, as you say "start to neglect your Survival skill" it is merely that the DCs for Track level off, and I stop with 18 ranks in Survival, plus 10 from spelunking gives a modifier of +28, and since lore of the stones allows you to treat the cave as very soft ground Ariadne can track a fine creature on an overcast night (assuming the underground is constantly under this poor visibility condition) that is moving at half speed and covering its tracks while moving at normal speed myself without failure. I saw no point in putting any more ranks in survival, and I stopped here since I could easily track the spiders I sent to follow someone. I decided to be efficient and spend the points elsewhere.
@PONIES: I'll start entering in the judge manually if the contestant only puts it in the subject line and bolding the judge.

Muggins

2014-06-11, 02:13 PM

I'm feeling some hostility from Rizzo here. Since this is a matter which applies to both me and Deadline (and to the other judges, since Rizzo is pushing the Generic Warrior point), could we get an official ruling from the chairman on whether "shouldn't" is equivalent to "can't" for the purposes of mixing Standard and Generic classes? I'd rather not argue semantics on my own, and it should probably be addressed at some point.

Graima: I apologise for my inaccurate comments about mind flayers. They're no more relevant to your build than any other aberration.
While I could discuss this topic further, doing so would likely deviate too far from my original judging to be considered legitimate. In light of the fact that Foe Hunter's language requirement is not always required, the score will be modified accordingly. +0 to +0.5, for a total modification of +0.5.
New Scores: 4.5/5 Elegance, 16/20 Total.

Deadline

2014-06-11, 04:56 PM

@Deadline:
thanks for you comments

Elegance:
you can't combine generic classes with regular classes), and didn't even leverage the power that gave you (not to mention the issues some DM's will have with it), so you take a hit here for that.

Well I have hammered all the other judges on this one, so its your turn.
Generic class If you use these generic classes, you shouldn't also use the standard character classes (or variants of those classes).
term shouldn't, SHOULD NOT is some how interpreted as can not, not allowed or banned ?

Definition
should·n't [shood-nt] contraction of should not.

should not
means not recommended although acceptable in particular circumstances but the full implications must be understood.

if you had went Questionable Rules, I would probly have seen the logic in that

You seem really hung up on debating specific words. But aside from no motivation to engage you on that, it's largely academic here. You shouldn't mix them, but that's not my main objection here. The deduction is because you used variant rules, which means that you are reducing your build's ability to fit in at most gaming tables. And you didn't even take advantage of those variant rules under power, so overall you took a net loss.

No scoring adjustment.

@Deadline: I'm glad you enjoyed my build, and your overall assessment is accurate. However, I have a few points I would like to clarify.

Firstly, the reason that Stonedeath Assassin levels are intermixed is to build on the abilities as soon as possible. The first two levels are to bring stoneskulk into play, meaning Ariadne can use Hide anywhere, an ability that is greatly appreciated early on. The last 3 levels are so that one can enjoy the benefits of stonedeath strike for more levels, which I felt would be more appreciated than having limited earth glide.

Yes, you take breaks away from the SI to focus on things that aren't the SI (or even all that related to its abilities). Your explanation for why you did that makes sense, but it you also hit on exactly why I made my deduction. You delay access to the SI's abilities, which means you spend more time of your build NOT being the SI.

No scoring adjustment.

Secondly, you say that lore of the stones cannot be used on a petrified creature. I realize that a petrified creature is not necessarily an object, but stone tell never makes any mention of objects, since the target is "you." As for a petrified creature not being "natural or unworked stone" I assume you meant "natural or worked stone," and I would consider a petrified creature to be worked stone, though I would understand if you still felt otherwise.

I can dig around for the argument I made back in Cipher Adept, but the general gist was that Stone to Flesh and Break Enchantment target creatures (petrified creatures specifically for Stone to Flesh). And that would indicate that a Petrified Creature is not simply stone. That said, I would allow it via rule of cool at my table, but I can absolutely see others saying no by the rules.

No scoring adjustment.

Thirdly, I would remind that while Ariadne's base will save is low, 5 (base) +2(deepsong) + 4 (aberration specialist) is an 11 will save vs illithids, 13 against charm monster due to changeling's racial bonus vs charm, so it's not as one-sided as it may seem.

Fair enough, but that was just commentary. I didn't dock anyone for their choice of aberration.

No scoring adjustment.

Lastly, I wish to clarify that I do not, as you say "start to neglect your Survival skill" it is merely that the DCs for Track level off, and I stop with 18 ranks in Survival, plus 10 from spelunking gives a modifier of +28, and since lore of the stones allows you to treat the cave as very soft ground Ariadne can track a fine creature on an overcast night (assuming the underground is constantly under this poor visibility condition) that is moving at half speed and covering its tracks while moving at normal speed myself without failure. I saw no point in putting any more ranks in survival, and I stopped here since I could easily track the spiders I sent to follow someone. I decided to be efficient and spend the points elsewhere.

True, but everyone gets that same benefit, so I was looking for those who went above and beyond. I had also assumed that your spider was using your tracking ability, not just crawling about in plain sight. Such a thing might be not worthy of notice for a little while, but if it crawled along with your prey long enough, it would start to seem strange. At any rate, it's a pretty minor deal (I lumped this and a couple of other minor things into a single small deduction). I really did like Ariadne, and if you had focused more on showcasing the SI (instead of Stonedeath Assassin), you would have placed higher.

No scoring adjustment.

I'm feeling some hostility from Rizzo here. Since this is a matter which applies to both me and Deadline (and to the other judges, since Rizzo is pushing the Generic Warrior point), could we get an official ruling from the chairman on whether "shouldn't" is equivalent to "can't" for the purposes of mixing Standard and Generic classes? I'd rather not argue semantics on my own, and it should probably be addressed at some point.

In answer to this, the generic classes are not forbidden in the OP, but instead follow the caution against variant rules (namely, it's in the judges purview to decide if a penalty should be assessed).

You also mentioned earlier about how to score Failure to Qualify. Again in the OP, failing to qualify is not the same as using banned material, so it should not result in a Refusal to Judge. I tried to make it clear in my criteria that failing to qualify for the SI nets you a 1 in Use of the Secret Ingredient (because a 1 is the minimum score unless banned material is used), and any other failures to qualify are handled under Elegance. You'll need to decide how you want to handle them, but please don't refuse to judge them.

OMG PONIES

2014-06-11, 04:59 PM

Disputes are starting to come back through!

Quick, let me flood your inbox again so they'll stop.That's right, no blue text.

@PONIES: I'll start entering in the judge manually if the contestant only puts it in the subject line and bolding the judge.

Work smarter, not harder; make the chefs do it for ya! :smallwink:

Tim Proctor

2014-06-11, 05:07 PM

So the only open disputes are to Rama at this point?

Piggy Knowles

2014-06-11, 06:56 PM

In answer to this, the generic classes are not forbidden in the OP, but instead follow the caution against variant rules (namely, it's in the judges purview to decide if a penalty should be assessed).

Yeah, to quote the rules of the competition:

Note that judges are allowed to look askance at any use of Unearthed Arcana not specifically mentioned above, at their discretion, and otherwise penalize Elegance according to their preference.

For my own two cents (I am neither a chef nor a judge this round), the generic classes should be verboten alongside flaws, traits, alternate skill systems, et al. Playing with generic classes means you are more or less playing a different game than the rules of this contest otherwise imply. The ability to pick and choose skills, spells and class features as you'd like is especially problematic in a competition like this, where figuring out how to qualify is a big part of the contest.

Vaz

2014-06-11, 07:20 PM

If you're getting that worked up over a silly little internet game where we invent imaginary friends in our minds and then actually make rules for them using one of the most complicated poorly written rulesets I've ever heard of to the extent that you're belittling and insulting those judges who take the time out of their lives to judge yours and 14+ others, then you either need to re-evaluate your life, or take a nice long walk around the block.

KrimsonNekros

2014-06-11, 07:29 PM

...or take a nice long walk around the block.

I don't know, I think a long walk off a short pier might be more effective.

AvatarVecna

2014-06-11, 09:03 PM

Amphetryon

2014-06-11, 09:05 PM

I don't know about the rest of you, but I think this (or some paraphrase of it) should be included in the ICC rules/guidelines.

From the first link in the FAQ, written by some dude with too much time on his hands:

5. Repeat After Me - It's Not That Serious: This is a contest with no real prize on a message board dedicated to a comic that pokes fun at a game. It's difficult to come up with a scenario that's less SrsBzns than that without considerable effort. Have fun, enjoy the process, and hopefully learn something about D&D 3.5 while you're competing. Unless you sign your name to the entry or decide (against the contest's spirit and rules) to otherwise reveal yourself ahead of time as a particular entrant's creator, the judges aren't saying anything about you, personally. So, don't take it personally. It will be okay. Remember, your worst completed effort in this contest scores better than any effort you made for the contest and didn't finish.

OMG PONIES

2014-06-11, 09:16 PM

@Deadline: Two quick arithmetic questions for ya:

Ariadne: the categories given add up to 15, but the total given was 14.75. Which is accurate?
Rizzo: the categories given add up to 10.75, but the total given 11.25. Which is accurate?

AvatarVecna

2014-06-11, 09:16 PM

From the first link in the FAQ, written by some dude with too much time on his hands:

Cool! It's already a thing!

Deadline

2014-06-11, 09:30 PM

OMG PONIES

2014-06-11, 09:41 PM

Math is hard. The categories are correct, i just failed to add correctly.

Thanks! The spreadsheet demanded answers. It is now satisfied.

Tim Proctor

2014-06-11, 10:38 PM

Math is hard. The categories are correct, i just failed to add correctly.
That should be the slogan for this entire competition... we've all done that so many times. :smallsmile:

Ikeren

2014-06-11, 10:57 PM

Now that this is basically done, here's why I think Darkhunter is actually way worse than dwarven defender:

Darkhunter Criticism:

As a melee prestige class, you have only a d6, 3/4ths BAB, and the following mechanical bonuses:
+2 Attack/saves versus aberrations, +4 versus subset.
Intelligence modifier to initiative
+2 AC when in difficult terrain
Move normally over difficult terrain
Tremorsense 30ft
+2 morale to will saving throws
Intelligence modifier to damage when in difficult terrain

That is not enough over 10 levels to support a melee prestige class.

As a scouting/skilled prestige class, you get 6+int skills, plus:
Bonus on Climb, Escape Artist, Jump, Survival, and Swim check + taking 10
Darkvision +50ft
Tunnelport/Greater 1/day
Stone tell 1/day, improved stone tell, + survival on stone as if soft ground
Stone Walk 10+int modifier times per day

Here's the big problem: That isn't enough to keep you alive if you're 50 ft in front of the party and get ambushed. With a d6 and no innate armor proficiency and a weak will save which aberrations are known to take advantage of, you're screwed. The “scouting” minigame is on that works poorly in D&D and this prestige class doesn't help you with it, gaining no innate bonuses to hide/move silently and only a few minor “oh crap, evacuate” abilities. As a skill based prestige class, you're expected to be able to deal with traps. Darkrunner is missing Search, Disable Device, and Open lock.

There are roles for a party, and Darkrunner helps you fill 0 of them, except sort of the tertiary scouting role --- which is really just asking for you to eat a charm or dominate while you're in front of the party and to get sent back as an assassin.

Muggins

2014-06-11, 11:08 PM

There are roles for a party, and Darkrunner helps you fill 0 of them, except sort of the tertiary scouting role --- which is really just asking for you to eat a charm or dominate while you're in front of the party and to get sent back as an assassin.
Upside: Since you suck so hard from your Darkrunner levels, you probably won't be able to kill any of your buddies before you get dispelled. :smallsmile:

Muggins

2014-06-11, 11:54 PM

I've got the scores up for our four FtQ builds here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?349040-Iron-Chef-Optimization-Challenge-in-the-Playground-LVII&p=17607217#post17607217).

Scores:
Four judges, mid disputes

Entry
Rama
OMG PONIES
Muggins
Deadline
Total
Place

Creb Covenant
17.5
15.5
17.5
16.75
67.25
1st

Skitters
17.75
17
16.75
15.75
67.25
1st

Ariadne
15.75
16.5
17.25
14.75
64.25
3rd

Adlib
15
16
16
17
64
4th

Delehdas
14.75
15
17
14.25
61
5th

Esmar Tuek
16.75
15
12.75
15.25
59.75
6th

Graima
13.75
15
16
14
58.75
7th

Amaljss Myund
15.75
16
14
12.75
58.5
8th

Roy
16
15
13
13.25
57.25
9th

Ihlmrhys Do'ar
14
16
13
11.75
54.75
10th

Ryld
13
15
11.5
13.5
53
11th

Rizzo
10.5
14.5
14
11.25
50.25
12th

Steven
12
11
9
12.75
44.75
13th

Orion Garranan
10.5
11.5
9
12.5
43.5
14th

Richard B Riddick
9
8.5
8.25
12
37.75
15th

relytdan

2014-06-12, 09:26 AM

So the only open disputes are to Rama at this point?
yep so it seems that rama has not responded to disputes yet.

dysprosium

2014-06-12, 09:32 AM

I'm glad that Muggins was able to put scores together for those in Limbo.

I'm even more glad that Muggins put together the new standings.

Kazudo

2014-06-12, 10:39 AM

Good to see that the Demon RL wasn't able to curb the judging. I feel bad about having to duck out like that.

Muggins

2014-06-12, 11:11 AM

I feel like we got a rather good mix of scores from the four judges, albeit with a tie for first place. Since we haven't got any disputes from Creb or Skitters yet, though, it seems like they're fine with sharing. :smallsmile:

Tim Proctor

2014-06-12, 11:13 AM

Well the Chairman hasn't been on in 22-hours, so his mailbox may be near full with disputes.:smallbiggrin: Lots of time left.

Kuulvheysoon

2014-06-12, 02:59 PM

Well the Chairman hasn't been on in 22-hours, so his mailbox may be near full with disputes.:smallbiggrin: Lots of time left.

Indeed. And contrary to Poniular opinion, there's only 3 entries claiming disputes.

To Rama
Please don't forget about the disputes I put out, while I see that you corrected the race issue, there were others too. :smallsmile:

To OMG Ponies
You state:
"My point was if you're going for a "jack of all trades," there are plenty of other options besides Darkrunner."

My response:
I went with what the book says a Darkrunner is, 1) explorer, 2) diplomat (see playing a darkrunner). As far as I know no one else invested into diplomacy, being able to take 32 (more it they are an aberration), and 22 languages really speaks to why darkrunner. If it was just a jack of all trades that's one thing, but it is a jack-of-exploring and diplomacy. Not a fighter, not a scout, not an assassin, an explorer and diplomat.

To Muggins
You state:
"This section of the criteria was for whether the build did anything mechanically interesting or unique."

My resposne:
How many other builds had a large diplomacy component? It is listed as the second part of the explorer in the book and this build capitalized on it and did specifically mention that.

To Deadline
You state:
"your advertised combat abilities only last for as long as you have Inspiration points to burn. After you run out of Inspiration points, your combat contributions drop by half. Basically, your build has some issues with consistent power levels."

The high Init of +18 (+7 Brains over Brawn, +7 Cavefighting, +4 Improved Initiative), is not effected whatsoever by inspiration points.

Attacks +30/25/20 (BAB +14/+9/+4 Knowledge Devotion +5, Improved Cavefighting +7, Aberration Specialist +4), are not effected whatsoever by inspiration points.

Damage +23 (Knowledge Devotion +5, Improved Cavefighting +7, Aberration Specialist +4, Cunning Insight +7), is effected by inspiration points. The only change that inspiration points are giving is 21 damage, if needed in a full-attack. Without the inspiration points the average damage with a regular longsword and three attacks is 61.5 instead of 82.5, which is 26% less damage not complete combat prowess.

Furthermore, this build has a diplomatic side to it, to prevent absurd amount of combat encounters with 32 diplomacy and 22 languages spoken. It's like Kirk it's job is to explore life and new civilizations, and while he can probably handle a Gorn he'd much rather handle some hot aberration women (don't forget that lore/specialist help with that too).

I totally appreciate you scoring it so high, if you didn't and it wasn't withing .25 of 3rd I would be disputing but it's so close.
Amaljss Myund enters the judging arena with an amused smile upon his face as a small group of goblins follow him in with food and drinks.Hello gentlemen. I hear you have some questions for me and about my abilities and motives. Well why don't we all sit down and have something to eat and drink while we are at it shall we? As the words leave my mouth the servants I had brought with me set a dish of roasted Rothe infront of each covered in a fine mushroom sauce and some of the finest wine in all the underdark.Now that everyone is comfortable shall we begin? With a kind smile Amaljss turns his head in the direction of Rama. As you spoke up first I think it is only fair we begin with you no? You state that me being blessed by the spider queen is unaddressed and while I understand how a mortal, an orc no less could see things that way allow me to explain. The spider queen, Lolth in case you are not following, is a fickle goddess. Favoring the bold over those who are comfortable with the power they have. Plotters and schemers, bringers of chaos, those she favors. My entire life has been plotting and scheming. From my very birth my mother used me to overthrow the wizards who ruled at the time, blasphemers one and all of them. However to do so we could not just attack them head on, they had the numbers against us. So instead we provoked an enemy outside our own city to invoke a retaliation inside, and begin the gears of change. We destroyed the order in which the wizards had made and brought back the power of Lolth threw her priestess. So to say my blessing is a fraud is to invoke the house of Myund, and that is not something I would advise. Amaljss says as he looks down the list infront of him, reading what had been written. And I believe you are dismissed Rama, a least for now unless you have something to add of course, I do hope you enjoy your meal. Amaljss says once more with that smile that seems all to perfect, as if carved from the very onxy seat you are sitting upon now.

Flipping once more threw the papers before him Amaljss raises an eyebrow as he lifts the next one up and looks directly at the ettin who was well renowned for his judging. Well Mr.OMG Ponies it is a pleasant surprise to see you here today, I hope you are enjoying the meal I had prepared. As Amaljss says this he scans over the paper infront of him. A look of anger crosses Amaljss face as it darkens and a curved dagger appears in his hand. First off If you ever place me with the likes of a servant again I will gut you where you stand, a god or not. Those of no house do not even belong being mentioned in my presence. Amaljss says as he calls one of the servants over, killing them with the dagger. That is your warning.Now you say I am the sample of what a Darkrunner should be, yet most I know, and I do know a good many after all as I am a member of the guild are rogues, they are not scouts who have trained a lifetime in these winding tunnels. And many of them are even worse not even born this far beneath the surface, deciding to come here for the glory, and instead dying in some ditch to feed the hooked horrors. As for how I am different from that thing you call a drow, for one I am of a noble family, that should be enough. Add in that I brought forth the rule of Lolth herself back to my kingdom, I think that makes me much different from that batha fodder. And once more you dare say my race is not worth it, from an ettin those are bold words my friend. You may think it is to step but let any of the mages of my order try using a spell on me, or ask any of the abberations who tried using their powers on me how easy it was to get threw my resistance. Amaljss then gestures with his hand behind him, and the sound of heavy footsteps can be heard as you all see a minotaur enter the room carrying an assortment of weapons, including ranged. A warrior who relies on any one weapon will die, a true warrior can use any weapon and still come out victorious, however I prefer to use the dirk and longsword myself like a typical male warrior. This dose not mean however that I would ever restrict myself to such things. And thanks to my advanced training if I decide to wield one of my weapons in two hands my wounds are three times as deadly. So to answer your question simply, I use whatever weapon is available. Relying on any one is simply foolish as I stated. As for this note here on explaining how my other abilities help me out I will keep that in mind, thank you very much and enjoy your meal. I can promise you it is not poisoned. Amaljss says as he looks to the other judges with an amused grin on his face, gently placing the paper he had been reading from off to the side as his other hand reaches for his own wine glass and takes a small sip as he looks to the next in line.

And I believe now it is your turn muggins if you do not mind putting down your food for a moment. Amaljss says as he begins reading and almost instantly laughs. You may not have noticed but I am a drow, I used my abilities to manipulate the Darkrunners into doing what benefited me and my people. Since I meet up with them my city has been selling our own drowcraft blades to almost all in the organization bringing in a very large profit do their their excellent abilities so far from the star above that burns our eyes. And I find it amusing that you think that I am not unique. Sure I follow many of the norms for the males who follow Lolth in defending my marton mother. However I do so by advancing her goals, not destroying her enemies myself. I simply find an enemy to do it for me, to put it into words someone from the upper world would understand. I am sent to poke the bees nest and await for there reaction, leaving false trails so that they eliminate my mothers enemies and I do not need to lift a single finger, then to make it look like we are being generous we retaliate against the aberrations we set on our enemies. Thus moving us up the social ladder of power. To say I am not unique in my ways of doing things is like saying a slave is smarter then its master. And you say that I am not even a Darkhunter, That is getting close to treason. While I will admit I use them for my own gain, after all they are a very useful tool, I learned their teachings and added them to my own fighting style I say rather well, making them all almost blend into one. You may want to rethink this if I were you. Amaljss then flips the page, to the paper he was holding and begins running his slender fingers down threw the next paragraph. You do realize I am merely the scout of my mothers death guard correct? I go in and weaken up our opponents defense so that when the main force gets in there is no contest, their food and water have already been poisoned, they have not had a restful sleep in days. So my very power comes from the fear I strike into my enemies to the point they give into panic. I much rather shot a bow from afar and watch as they try to find me while I am at a comfortable distance, retreating once they get to close only to do so again then engage in direct combat alone. Only a fool would go into a situation that they did not have the clear advantage in. As two your reasoning that I think fighting with two weapons is better then one, no that is not one hundred percent correct. It was simply part of my training, and one of the parts of my training taught me how to use my ability to fight with two weapons better then normal against favored enemies. Though if I had too chose between say a greatsword or a dirk and longsword I would more then likely pick the greatsword simple to deal the most damage to my enemy. I would not however simply toss aside something I was taught, after all everything you are taught in life serves a purpose. And well my dear friends poison here dose help when it comes to other matters. Amaljss states as a small viper comes slithering out of his sleeve. Now to the final part before you can go back to your meal. You state I do not use the talents I needed to become a Darkrunner, yet all my life I have, if you look they are some of my very best skills. And the special training I went threw to become as alert as I am has served me well. And do I need to even say more on tracking down my enemies? I track them trough a network of mazes that would get someone new to the area lost with no hope of finding their way back before something killed them. I will not only say this is a lie, but I will defy every word you speak from this moment on. And you speak of difficult terrain, have you ever hung from a stalagmite before, or crawled into a hole so small on a caves wall that your entire body screams in pain? If you have not I would not speak of difficult terrain, as while I can not make it easily, given enough time I can set up the perfect ambush spot to stall my enemies and hamper them so that for days the are parinoed by the sound of water dropping miles away. Lastly I must ask you if you even know what a darkrunner is? We pass threw the underdark like no other can and kill all aberrations in our path, Ithids just happen to be the ones my mother advised me to attack as they were the most numerous in our area meaning a quicker end to those who would oppose the return of the spider queens rule over the city. Now go back to your meal, I do hope you don't choke on it, I hear after all some poisons paralyze the body, and while you are eating I think that would be very bad don't you?

Ah a forth judge this is a bit unexpected. I hope you have been enjoying your meal, as well as listening to what I have said to the others, as from your report I hear some things that class with others, while others that some agree on. First off though I am happy you acknowledge me for what I am, and yes I do have guts. I do hunt aberrations for a living to only cause chaos after all. Now lets get to the more series stuff shall we? Lets see here. Ah yes with my fighting style, as I stated above I have been specially trained to power attack my favored enemies, so it becomes irrelevant as while I can fight with two weapons, I can also fight with one in two hands. And my natural strength alone mixed with my powers threw training raise my abilities much higher then they normally would be. 19 to be exact, and that is not including the powers that each of my professions gave to me against my favored enemy. Amaljss then looks up clear annoyance on his face. Again with this nonsense of not being a darkrunner. Do I not use my naturally gifted abilities to track any aberrations threw the tunnels, and listen to the very rocks sometimes when the trail runs cold? Do I not use my training to go into places others my size could not. And more importantly do I not hunt down and kill aberrations? Sure is it all for personal gain, am I manipulating an organization to get my way. I will not deny the claim, but whichever way you look at it I do use the abilities given to me by my training as a darkrunner. Amaljss then gets up and bows from the seat he had been in. By the way I hope you all know as we have been hear discussing this nonsense a poison has slowly been going into your bloodstream threw the food and drink. Right about now you should be feeling a bit groggy and wondering why you can't move, well its simple. You offended me and the house of Myund so you all must die. And in a flash he vanishes.
@All Judges:

Judges I appreciate all your judgments, time invested, etc. However, F U all.. j/k.:smallsmile:

I realized what I did wrong, when I added the golden hand levels I put the skills into knowledge instead of survival and that is what made me think I qualified for the knowledge devotion. A table error.

As far as the speak language, the Abolethic Sovergnity doesn't have a language. They are Aboleths and their minions that use a common language (so common or undercommon). However, the whole specificity of 'creature type' for hated foe was a complete miss on my part. I thought it would be cool to have SR, DR, and all the other cool stuff against the minions and then be able to still hold up against the BBEG.

As far as the difficult terrain issues, if anyone has read any of the descriptions of the underdark they would know that you're 98% going to be in difficult terrain. It specifically mentions "an uneven cave floor" in the description that is referenced, and is a false argument. It's like saying that the Darkrunners are reliant on being eaten by Zombies.

And a Special Announcement from the Chair!
For this competition, feel free to treat the Generic Warrior as an "Other Use of UA", with all the associated (optional) penalties. I'll make a judgement for next competition and add it into the OP.

AvatarVecna

2014-06-12, 03:11 PM

I regret not being able to submit my judgement results in time, if only because it means I'll never know how Amaljss would've responded to my comments. I doubt his poisons would be potent enough to paralyze a mortal possessed by a deity, for instance.

Deadline

2014-06-12, 05:10 PM

To Deadline
You state:
"your advertised combat abilities only last for as long as you have Inspiration points to burn. After you run out of Inspiration points, your combat contributions drop by half. Basically, your build has some issues with consistent power levels."

The high Init of +18 (+7 Brains over Brawn, +7 Cavefighting, +4 Improved Initiative), is not effected whatsoever by inspiration points.

Attacks +30/25/20 (BAB +14/+9/+4 Knowledge Devotion +5, Improved Cavefighting +7, Aberration Specialist +4), are not effected whatsoever by inspiration points.

Damage +23 (Knowledge Devotion +5, Improved Cavefighting +7, Aberration Specialist +4, Cunning Insight +7), is effected by inspiration points. The only change that inspiration points are giving is 21 damage, if needed in a full-attack. Without the inspiration points the average damage with a regular longsword and three attacks is 61.5 instead of 82.5, which is 26% less damage not complete combat prowess.

Furthermore, this build has a diplomatic side to it, to prevent absurd amount of combat encounters with 32 diplomacy and 22 languages spoken. It's like Kirk it's job is to explore life and new civilizations, and while he can probably handle a Gorn he'd much rather handle some hot aberration women (don't forget that lore/specialist help with that too).

I totally appreciate you scoring it so high, if you didn't and it wasn't withing .25 of 3rd I would be disputing but it's so close.

Blerg, you are correct. I misread your entry.

+0.25 points in power for Adlib

Ah a forth judge this is a bit unexpected. I hope you have been enjoying your meal, as well as listening to what I have said to the others, as from your report I hear some things that class with others, while others that some agree on. First off though I am happy you acknowledge me for what I am, and yes I do have guts. I do hunt aberrations for a living to only cause chaos after all. Now lets get to the more series stuff shall we? Lets see here. Ah yes with my fighting style, as I stated above I have been specially trained to power attack my favored enemies, so it becomes irrelevant as while I can fight with two weapons, I can also fight with one in two hands. And my natural strength alone mixed with my powers threw training raise my abilities much higher then they normally would be. 19 to be exact, and that is not including the powers that each of my professions gave to me against my favored enemy. Amaljss then looks up clear annoyance on his face. Again with this nonsense of not being a darkrunner. Do I not use my naturally gifted abilities to track any aberrations threw the tunnels, and listen to the very rocks sometimes when the trail runs cold? Do I not use my training to go into places others my size could not. And more importantly do I not hunt down and kill aberrations? Sure is it all for personal gain, am I manipulating an organization to get my way. I will not deny the claim, but whichever way you look at it I do use the abilities given to me by my training as a darkrunner. Amaljss then gets up and bows from the seat he had been in. By the way I hope you all know as we have been hear discussing this nonsense a poison has slowly been going into your bloodstream threw the food and drink. Right about now you should be feeling a bit groggy and wondering why you can't move, well its simple. You offended me and the house of Myund so you all must die. And in a flash he vanishes.

*quaffs potion of Neutralize Poison* Yes pointy, you've got all the hallmarks of a Darkrunner. Just like every other member of the Darkrunner guild. The question is, what did you do with them? If the answer is 'nothing more than what any other Darkrunner does with them', then there's not much to score. If the answer is, 'Not much, and I generally went in a different direction,' then the score slips. If all you wanted to do was kill Mindflayers for your Matron like a good little male, there are much better ways of doing it. Heck, joining the Darkrunner guild could be seen as squandering Drow resources ... it'd be a shame if someone pointed that out to your Matron.

No scoring adjustment.

As far as the difficult terrain issues, if anyone has read any of the descriptions of the underdark they would know that you're 98% going to be in difficult terrain. It specifically mentions "an uneven cave floor" in the description that is referenced, and is a false argument. It's like saying that the Darkrunners are reliant on being eaten by Zombies.

Being able to create your own difficult terrain means you control that advantage, and that you aren't passively hoping it will be present. In other words, it enhances the SI, rather than just "having" an ability, it actively makes it better. You didn't do that here.

No scoring adjustment.

I'm going back right now to fix my judging post to adjust the one score that needs it, and to fix my math errors for the two pointed out earlier. Table wranglers, please adjust points accordingly.

Ikeren

2014-06-12, 11:28 PM

AvatarVecna

2014-06-12, 11:41 PM

Vaz

2014-06-13, 05:14 AM

Read through scoring of some of the builds other than mine, and I think I'm starting to realize that people are basically the perfect inversion of my judgment; generous with power scores and strict with the rest --- whereas I'd be inclined to be generous with the rest and stricter with power scores.

Just another interesting instance of "GITP does optimization differently" from my experiences at 339 and BG's. The culture going on here is really quite fascinating.

Hilariously, true. Skitters is the perfect example - a fitting first place for this abomination of a prestige class.

On the bright side, my conception of Dwarven Defender went from "Bad" to "Surprisingly functional."

Nope. Dwarven Defender is still bad.

It's less that GitP does optimization differently, it's just that this challenge it attempting to become something a bit more different. I'm not sure if you understand the concept - basically bring something new to the table (any theoretical table, hence why CharOp tricks tend to be ignored for the most part, which is why we get Elegance scores. High powered "hacks" along the lines of Pun Pun are both well known and fairly inelegant to pull off without relying on higher powers outside that of the class features. And also potentially limiting power if you don't use that ability to your fullest, not to mention independant of what the SI brings to the build.

After all, after wizards, searching d&d forum gets GitP for me, which combined with the comics that I recognise from Dragon Mag makes it possibly even more well known than the Wizards boards (oddly). It was the first place I was disabused of evocation being the be-all end all of a fight, and from there, I've gone on, so it's a place for newcomers. It was the first place I heard of pun pun, and the same for many others who weren't around in the heady days of the original release. It's on the road where people turn from munchkin to optimizer, I think I've seen, or from a player as wizard imagined it to be (How many threads do I see that come up with Druid's not performing well enough, or my Clerics not working out, blah blah, oh it's my girlfriend, new player, etc?) to becoming a hardgrained post optimization equivalent of a vietnam vet looking at the wizard spell like "i've seen s*, mannn".

Having said that, looking at the way I performed in this competition, feel free to ignore my verdict on CharOp =D. I've not even bothered asking for a dispute because it's really not worth it, haha!

Muggins

2014-06-13, 06:45 AM

Adlib: No alteration.

How many other builds had a large diplomacy component? It is listed as the second part of the explorer in the book and this build capitalized on it and did specifically mention that.
This feels like more of a dispute towards the following criterion from Use of the Secret Ingredient, which already has full marks:

+0.5: You do, however, sell the concept of an underfolk-turned-underguide through your class selection and absurd number of skill points/tricks.
This extends to the presence of diplomacy in your build. I do not consider the ability to take 10 on Diplomacy a unique or uncommon feat - why, a single level in Binder for Naberius would do the same. Other builds had ranks in Diplomacy, and while you do have the most ranks out of everyone else you don't have any way to "capitalise" on it outside of its standard uses in Diplomancy.
Judging Stands.

Amaljss: No alteration.
Muggins cuts you off, for he has no love for monologues or rambling speeches. "Where was all of this character, all this spirit before now? I had naught but a 9-paragraph backstory to depend upon, and its contents are not those whcih you preach now."

"Where in your fluff was your manipulation of the Darkrunners stipulated? When did you ever barter in drowcraft blades, and when did you work alongside the Darkrunners as an organisation? The answer is that you did not. You spent decades learning alongside a dwarf, but his relationship to the Darkrunners was tangential. True, both he and you cared more for the extermination of aberrations than the navigation of the Underdark. That is why you are not a Darkrunner, and why you are instead a glorified aberration hunter bearing the stripes of Lolth. As the pledge says:"

Members of [the Darkrunner Guild] hire themselves out as spies, explorers, or underground guides.

"You call yourself a manipulator, yet you lack any social skills with which to ply your craft. You call yourself a member of the matron's 'death guard,' and yet you have duties as a Darkrunner. Duties which you have shunned, and duties which were the focus of this challenge. Instead of guiding unwary fools through the treacherous Underdark, you slay aberrations."

I'm not sure what you're disputing because you're not giving any context to your long, rambling, in-character text. From what I could gather, though, your main disputes were the following:
A: I dispute that the build does nothing mechanically interesting or unique.
B: I dispute that the build uses a poor/unfocused combat style.
C: I dispute that the build does not feel like a Darkrunner.

Point A: Being Mechanically Interesting

You may not have noticed but I am a drow, I used my abilities to manipulate the Darkrunners into doing what benefited me and my people.
What abilities? You have no ranks in Diplomacy, Bluff or Intimidate, and no racial or spell-like abilities to help you perform such feats. Your only social skill is Sense Motive, and that's only got 10 ranks.

Since I meet up with them my city has been selling our own drowcraft blades to almost all in the organization bringing in a very large profit do their their excellent abilities so far from the star above that burns our eyes.
Where was this stipulated in the build, and what importance does it have in regards to being either unique or a better Darkrunner?

And I find it amusing that you think that I am not unique. Sure I follow many of the norms for the males who follow Lolth in defending my marton mother. However I do so by advancing her goals, not destroying her enemies myself.
Unless I'm mistaken, the main goals of Lolth are those of world domination, revenge and arachnophilia. "Advancing her goals" and "destroying her enemies" sound like they'd usually be one and the same. That said, none of this relates to your use of unique or interesting mechanics.

I simply find an enemy to do it for me, to put it into words someone from the upper world would understand. I am sent to poke the bees nest and await for there reaction, leaving false trails so that they eliminate my mothers enemies and I do not need to lift a single finger, then to make it look like we are being generous we retaliate against the aberrations we set on our enemies.
This is more roleplaying fluff which was not described in the build provided.

Point B: Combat Style

I go in and weaken up our opponents defense so that when the main force gets in there is no contest, their food and water have already been poisoned, they have not had a restful sleep in days. So my very power comes from the fear I strike into my enemies to the point they give into panic.
I'm going to assume that "our opponents" refers to elves and aberrations (your favoured enemies) and mind flayers (your aberration specialty). Beyond the fact that none of this was mentioned in the build (and is thus null and void), there are a few flaws with your plan:
Under all but the most exceptional of cases, it's going to be little ol' you versus more than one of them. Trying to sneak in against an equal-CR/ECL encounter just isn't going to work.
Elves don't sleep in the first place, so no worries there. Attempting to fluster a questionably sentient/sane aberration is likely to have mixed results.
Trying to poison the food and water of any group of creatures is a logistical nightmare. Mind flayers don't even drink food or water, they just eat brains.
Speaking of mind flayers, did you know that Darkstalker doesn't protect you from the 350ft telepathy-based vision of an elder brain? Those are the things which are nestled in the center of any illithid community, by the way.

I much rather shot a bow from afar and watch as they try to find me while I am at a comfortable distance, retreating once they get to close only to do so again then engage in direct combat alone.
What happened to your two-weapon fighting or your Darkrunner combat style? Sniping is, by the way, a huge penalty to your hide score which you have no way of reducing or countering.

As two your reasoning that I think fighting with two weapons is better then one, no that is not one hundred percent correct. It was simply part of my training, and one of the parts of my training taught me how to use my ability to fight with two weapons better then normal against favored enemies. Though if I had too chose between say a greatsword or a dirk and longsword I would more then likely pick the greatsword simple to deal the most damage to my enemy.
Okay, so let me make this perfectly clear. You've got Power Attack and Favoured Power Attack. You've also got Two-weapon Fighting and Improved Two-Weapon Fighting. With me so far?

You can't add the bonus from Power Attack to the damage dealt with a light weapon ... even though the penalty on attack rolls still applies.
Unless you feel like taking a big penalty to your accuracy, you'll be using two-weapon fighting with a dirk and a longsword. The dirk won't get any Power Attack benefits, but it'll still get the penalties. If you feel like fighting two-handed with a greatsword, then you effectively just wasted two of your feats which could've been spent elsewhere (like on that sniping you're so fond of).

And well my dear friends poison here dose help when it comes to other matters. Amaljss states as a small viper comes slithering out of his sleeve.
You mentioned having a viper animal companion for the sake of saving against charm-based spells, not for the sake of poison. You don't get Poison Use, you can't extract poison from an animal companion (except for rare, hard-to-wrangle cases using ranks in Handle Animal), and you never mention poison in your build.

Point C: Darkrunning

And you say that I am not even a Darkhunter, That is getting close to treason. While I will admit I use them for my own gain, after all they are a very useful tool, I learned their teachings and added them to my own fighting style I say rather well, making them all almost blend into one.
How do you use "them" for your own gain when you only ever meet with a single Darkrunner? Doubly so when he's an aberration-hating Dwarf who has as even less connection to the guild than you do.

You state I do not use the talents I needed to become a Darkrunner, yet all my life I have, if you look they are some of my very best skills. And the special training I went threw to become as alert as I am has served me well. And do I need to even say more on tracking down my enemies? I track them trough a network of mazes that would get someone new to the area lost with no hope of finding their way back before something killed them.
Anybody with track and ranks in survival can track. Darkrunner makes this better, but everybody else took Darkrunner (for obvious reasons). Being good at something and making that thing useful are two very different things. Why don't you have Astral Tracking, or Keen-Eared Scout? Why do you have no ranks in Balance, Swim, Jump or Escape Artist, and why do you stop taking ranks in Climb? What use do you get out of having 20 ranks in Knowledge (Dungeoneering) without something like Knowledge Devotion, and how do you expect to disable any traps you find using the Search skill?

This may seem rather ranty, but other builds capitalised on the elements of the Secret Ingredient in a way which make your poor attempts at optimising the Secret Ingredient seem underwhelming.

If you have not I would not speak of difficult terrain, as while I can not make it easily, given enough time I can set up the perfect ambush spot to stall my enemies and hamper them so that for days the are parinoed by the sound of water dropping miles away.
This quote, along with a few others, just provides further evidence that you can't perform your role effectively. You should not be dependent on circumstance, coincidence or DM fiat in order to perform your role; see the last round, Dwarven Defender, and check the scores of those builds which couldn't either serve as a tank or capitalise on the defensive abilities of the Secret Ingredient.
Judging Stands.

Edit: Scoring update.

Scores:
Four judges, mid disputes (Part 2: The Judgening)

Entry
Rama
OMG PONIES
Muggins
Deadline
Total
Place

Creb Covenant
17.5
15.5
17.5
16.75
67.25
1st

Skitters
17.75
17
16.75
15.75
67.25
1st

Ariadne
15.75
16.5
17.25
15
64.5
3rd

Adlib
15
16
16
17.25
64.25
4th

Delehdas
14.75
15
17
14.25
61
5th

Esmar Tuek
16.75
15
12.75
15.25
59.75
6th

Graima
13.75
15
16
14
58.75
7th

Amaljss Myund
15.75
16
14
12.75
58.5
8th

Roy
16
15
13
13.25
57.25
9th

Ihlmrhys Do'ar
14
16
13
11.75
54.75
10th

Ryld
13
15
11.5
13.5
53
11th

Rizzo
10.5
14.5
14
10.75
49.75
12th

Steven
12
11
9
12.75
44.75
13th

Orion Garranan
10.5
11.5
9
12.5
43.5
14th

Richard B Riddick
9
8.5
8.25
12
37.75
15th

OMG PONIES

2014-06-13, 08:17 AM

Between the theme of the contest (terrible secret ingredients) and the fact that the char op tricks are well known now, it's easy to make a powerful character. It's harder to make an interesting, powerful character that uses the secret ingredient well, all without requiring the kind of tricks that would make a DM spit fire.

Well said.

...it's a place for newcomers. It was the first place I heard of pun pun, and the same for many others who weren't around in the heady days of the original release

I think this is a big part of it; from what I've read on the WotC boards, it was a lot more of the old heads who had really delved into the rules and tried to eek out bizarre and unique interpretations that had often unintended and hilarious consequences. I'm not saying that doesn't happen here, but I've seen a lot more folks who were getting their eye teeth come through these competitions.

Having said that, looking at the way I performed in this competition, feel free to ignore my verdict on CharOp =D. I've not even bothered asking for a dispute because it's really not worth it, haha!

Your discernment is appreciated. Enjoy one internet. :smallbiggrin:

Oh yeah, how about I actually respond to these disputes?

You state:
"My point was if you're going for a "jack of all trades," there are plenty of other options besides Darkrunner."

My response:
I went with what the book says a Darkrunner is, 1) explorer, 2) diplomat (see playing a darkrunner). As far as I know no one else invested into diplomacy, being able to take 32 (more it they are an aberration), and 22 languages really speaks to why darkrunner. If it was just a jack of all trades that's one thing, but it is a jack-of-exploring and diplomacy. Not a fighter, not a scout, not an assassin, an explorer and diplomat.

My point wasn't that a Darkrunner isn't a jack of all trades, but that a jack of all trades build need not be a Darkrunner--even a jack of exploring and diplomacy. Case in point: you tout your skills with languages, but you don't even start taking ranks in Speak Language until your last level of Darkrunner. That being said, I do appreciate that Darkrunner gives a +10 to your exploring skills and a +4 to your Diplomacy against aberrations instead of the more limited skill boosts from things like advancement in factotum's Cunning Knowledge. Also, the ability to take 10 on your exploring skills at any time is helpful. I see your points on the mechanical concept of the build. I still don't have much to go on from a non-mechanical concept, theme, or story, though, so I'll agree to meet you halfway. +0.5 to Use of the Secret Ingredient.

Flipping once more threw the papers before him Amaljss raises an eyebrow as he lifts the next one up and looks directly at the ettin who was well renowned for his judging. Well Mr.OMG Ponies it is a pleasant surprise to see you here today, I hope you are enjoying the meal I had prepared.

Can I just start by saying that in-character disputes make it very difficult to tell what the meat & potatoes of the dispute actually are? That being said...

OOC Rules Lawyering: If I'm an ettin, you'll need to make some checks to communicate with me. From the SRD:

Ettins have no language of their own but speak a pidgin of Orc, Goblin, and Giant. Creatures that can speak any of these languages must succeed on a DC 15 Intelligence check to communicate with an ettin. Check once for each bit of information: If the other creature speaks two of these languages, the DC is 10, and for someone who speaks all three, the DC is 5.
Since I doubt a noble drow would ever learn the awful language of the Orcs, and you haven't mentioned learning Goblin or Giant, one of your Goblin servants is able to translate after he makes a DC 15 Intelligence check. An average goblin hireling would have an INT of 10, so he'd need to roll a 15 or better. The rantings of the ettin have been translated into basic Common for the sake of time and ease of reading. Also, your ranks in Knowledge: dungeoneering tell you that you've found an incredibly intelligent ettin who has taken the primordial, phrenic, and spellwarped templates thus giving him an INT of 16 but turning him into an aberration.

http://i59.tinypic.com/24npk7s.jpg

Four eyes blink angrily at the approaching drow. They come from two aging heads who bicker and sarcastically joke among themselves. The one on the left is spherical, with a bulbous nose that has sprouted a thick white moustache--either that, or tremendously long nose hairs. It was always hard to tell with ettins. Its eyes are heavily lidded, and this head looks as though it may fall asleep at any moment. The second head is more alert, and its hawklike eyes watch Amaljss' every motion from beneath a pointed brow; its beak of a nose and prominent chin contribute to the avian comparison. Both heads are balding, with sprigs of graying hair encircling the back of them like olive wreaths.

The corpulent, two-headed creature reeks to high heavens--a sign of pride among the ettins with their refusal to bathe. Its skin is covered in caked dirt and grime, creating a grayish exoskeleton with streaks of orange where it has wiped the viscous ooze of some bizarre Giant snack food composed of cooked strips of potato on itself. "Not hungry," both heads practically belch in unison. "Probably poisoned anyway, right Ponies?" the sleepy head asks. "No matter, OMG," the hawklike head retorts. "Still better than mother's cooking! BAHAHA!" Both heads break into uproarious laughter before turning to address Amaljss.

First off If you ever place me with the likes of a servant again I will gut you where you stand, a god or not. Those of no house do not even belong being mentioned in my presence. Amaljss says as he calls one of the servants over, killing them with the dagger. That is your warning.
The two heads of the ettin barely respond. Well, that's not true--the sleepy one grabs another orangey snack stick and tosses it into his mouth, chomping down messily and causing more of the mysterious ooze to fall on the creature's chest. "Duly noted," he mumbles with his mouth full. "But who your family is matters less than what you do. You scout, and I've heard you'd joined the ranks of the rangers. In this competition, you were not unique in either regard. The one of 'no house' that you mentioned was a paladin--a PALADIN, of all things. Gotta give him credit for chutzpah. Can you pass me that bottle?" One of the ettins arms raise lazily to point out a greenish vial full of bright yellow liquid. "Only the dew of the mountains can quench the thirst of a giant."

OOC: Your race was a slight deviation, but not enough to make up the repeated class selection. Scoring stands.

Now you say I am the sample of what a Darkrunner should be, yet most I know, and I do know a good many after all as I am a member of the guild are rogues, they are not scouts who have trained a lifetime in these winding tunnels. And many of them are even worse not even born this far beneath the surface, deciding to come here for the glory, and instead dying in some ditch to feed the hooked horrors.

The hawklike head responds while the sleepy head chugs the entire container of neon fluid. "Do you know Jasper Ringlerock? Tiny little fella--he was a Darkrunner too. Know what else he was?" The ettin pauses to allow Amaljss a guess before answering, "he was bloody delicious. OH! HO HO HO!" Both heads cackle in unison again. "Hey Ponies," the sleepy round head says. "Yes, OMG?" the elliptical hawklike head responds. "Know why they call them halflings?" OMG asks. "Why's that?" Ponies responds. "Cuz they have half the calories! AHAHAHA!" Both heads laugh once more before turning their joint attention on Amaljss. "Say," OMG muses while licking his lips, "You're a ranger too, aren'tcha?"

OOC: Ranger entry is advertised on Lords of Madness page 186, and the sample member of the darkrunner guild on page 219 is a ranger. While scout wasn't in the sample entry, it was repeated this round and thus doesn't help to salvage your Originality score Scoring stands.

And once more you dare say my race is not worth it, from an ettin those are bold words my friend. You may think it is to step but let any of the mages of my order try using a spell on me, or ask any of the abberations who tried using their powers on me how easy it was to get threw my resistance.

"Nobody's questioning your defensive prowess, boyo," the roundish head says as he finishes his snack. "But what if the Fates had dealt you a different hand?" the shrewder head says as he begins enjoying a snack of his own--five strips of greasy, mostly-cooked bacon. "What if the gods had seen fit to make you a lesser race? What if Lolth herself had not blessed you with her touch? You claim such power from joining the Darkrunner, but on one thing we agree--your power comes more from your noble drow blood. Without it, you'd be at a severe disadvantage. Why, we might be munching on those fingers of yours right now instead of talking to you."

OOC: You're admitting that a bevy of useful options come from being a drow--options that would go away if your DM was uncomfortable allowing a +2 or +3 LA at their table. If allowed, though, you contribute significantly in terms of defense, which was factored into my original score. Scoring stands.

Amaljss then gestures with his hand behind him, and the sound of heavy footsteps can be heard as you all see a minotaur enter the room carrying an assortment of weapons, including ranged. A warrior who relies on any one weapon will die, a true warrior can use any weapon and still come out victorious, however I prefer to use the dirk and longsword myself like a typical male warrior. This dose not mean however that I would ever restrict myself to such things. And thanks to my advanced training if I decide to wield one of my weapons in two hands my wounds are three times as deadly. So to answer your question simply, I use whatever weapon is available. Relying on any one is simply foolish as I stated. As for this note here on explaining how my other abilities help me out I will keep that in mind, thank you very much and enjoy your meal. I can promise you it is not poisoned.

Both ettins shake their hands at the grand display. "No, no," Ponies (the slender head) chides. "That's the point. You claim the ability to bring power to your attacks, but you can't do that with a flimsy little dirk. You'll wind up trying to tickle folks to death. If you want to really take advantage of attacks with muscle, you should use a proper two-hander like ol' Brainscrambler here." At that, the ettin reaches behind him to retrieve a huge spiked club--a long slab of gnarled wood with odd protrusions that even the hulking ettin must use two hands to manipulate. "Either way, you've got to tell us upfront what you're using instead of leaving us to guess it out. Otherwise, we may just assume that you quite enjoy being glazed with pineapple, roasted, and eaten for dinner. Sounds quite good, actually." At this, the more slender head begins licking his lips as well.

He is brought out of his mealtime reverie by an abrupt snort from the gruff minotaur in the room, looking thoroughly bored with the proceedings. "What a mean cow," he grumbles. "I'll say--talk about your beef jerky!" OMG pipes in. "BWA HA HA OH HO HO!" Both take a moment to laugh heartily at their own wit.

OOC: While I appreciate your reflection, the fact stands that if you wield a light weapon in your offhand you give up the ability to Power Attack. If you wield two non-light weapons, you'll see some penalties to attack. If you instead choose to two-hand a weapon, you've got decent bonus damage but you're giving up some of your attacks. The problem here was that there was no discussion of any of these options. This questionable omission along with the lack of a source list was enough to warrant the score I originally provided in Elegance. Scoring stands.

Amaljss then gets up and bows from the seat he had been in. By the way I hope you all know as we have been hear discussing this nonsense a poison has slowly been going into your bloodstream threw the food and drink. Right about now you should be feeling a bit groggy and wondering why you can't move, well its simple. You offended me and the house of Myund so you all must die. And in a flash he vanishes.

"Told you we weren't hungry, didn't we?" Ponies fumes. Turning to OMG, he finds that his partner has frozen up and the sleepy head's eyes are wide in fear for the first time. "Cheese...fries..." the sleepy head manages to choke out. "...poisoned...irk"

I realized what I did wrong, when I added the golden hand levels I put the skills into knowledge instead of survival and that is what made me think I qualified for the knowledge devotion. A table error.

I don't think I caught this in my initial judging, so I appreciate the explanation but I won't be deducting for it.

As far as the speak language, the Abolethic Sovergnity doesn't have a language. They are Aboleths and their minions that use a common language (so common or undercommon). However, the whole specificity of 'creature type' for hated foe was a complete miss on my part. I thought it would be cool to have SR, DR, and all the other cool stuff against the minions and then be able to still hold up against the BBEG.

The dispute I'm seeing here is regarding whether or not a language is needed to qualify for Foe Hunter, correct? For Esmar, it's a moot point; Weapon Focus (any) is also a prerequisite of Foe Hunter and you don't qualify for it at the level it was selected. Thus, you still fail to qualify for Foe Hunter even with language issues aside. I'll update my comments, but scoring stands.

As far as the difficult terrain issues, if anyone has read any of the descriptions of the underdark they would know that you're 98% going to be in difficult terrain. It specifically mentions "an uneven cave floor" in the description that is referenced, and is a false argument. It's like saying that the Darkrunners are reliant on being eaten by Zombies.

I made no mention of Esmar's interaction with difficult terrain, so I don't think there's anything for me in particular here. If I have missed or misunderstood any parts of your dispute, please let the Chairman know.

Muggins

2014-06-13, 08:56 AM

I believe that puts Adlib at 64.75, narrowly overtaking Ariadne's 64.5. Congratulations on taking third place during overtime*.

*Upside: Now that we have that last placing-level dispute out of the way, I guess we'll be getting the reveal. Get hype!

dysprosium

2014-06-13, 08:56 AM

Amphetryon

2014-06-13, 09:01 AM

i've got to find a way to get a statler and waldorf ettin npc in one of my games now . . . :smallcool::smallamused:

I can understand the point about in character disputes being harder to guess what the actual dispute is, but they certainly are entertaining to read. In character rebuttals to in character disputes are equally entertaining.

modok thinks all disputes should be in-character disputes

Muggins

2014-06-13, 09:10 AM

On the topic of in-character disputes, I recall there being a rather good one back in the Thrall of Orcus contest. It was from that Jack Black guy, and his disputes were as Ozzy Osborne. :smalltongue:

It worked particularly well because he went out of his way to quote what he was disputing before delving into the IC chatter, and I'd recommend that to anyone who tries to do so in the future. It helps if we know what you're disputing so that the process doesn't take too long.

OMG PONIES totally did it better, by the way. It's not like I was called an orc to tip me off. :smallsigh:

Edit: Dangnabbit Modok, why are you so Modokan?

Vaz

2014-06-13, 09:13 AM

I just want a fresh ingredient. :smallyuk: This one's a bit sour now for me =D.

Sian

2014-06-13, 10:13 AM

for me, in this case it might not even be that much the IC dispute (although i feel it obtuse, and hard to read as it is), but that its writen in a 'great wall of china text' with any kind of punctuation beyond the fact that some of the text is colored in a fancy color ... which helps jack with reading and comprehension even not accounting for the fact that its tricky to dissect IC disputes in the first place.

to be frank, if i were Judging, i'd probably deny to respond on IC disputes (Specially of the wall of text variant) out of principle, with a "tl;dr, wall of text, scoring stands"

Kazudo

2014-06-13, 10:45 AM

Tim Proctor

2014-06-13, 10:48 AM

I would actually like to point out that IC stuff is alright and all, but naw. Though it does make the disputes process interesting, I would probably have taken a lot of what was posted up there as derogatory if not inflammatory. Now, I'm more sensitive to that matter than most, mainly because my ego is overcompensating for a lack of practice and ability.

Stop me if you've heard this before.
Good thing you weren't judging during the Pere Noel rap battles.

I think IC disputes are fine, but there should be a spoiled section that specifically highlights the issue being disputed. For Pere Noel I actually had the rap-battles done before the reveal and just went on what I thought judges would harp on. Luckily I didn't have to use the one about the epic-construction-rules.

Sian

2014-06-13, 10:49 AM

I would actually like to point out that IC stuff is alright and all, but naw. Though it does make the disputes process interesting

not nessesary disargeeing but it doesn't make for a good excuse to throw the understanding out with the bath water

Kazudo

2014-06-13, 10:55 AM

I'm not saying not to take the dispute seriously, but there really does need to be a TL;DR section to the dispute. I think it was handled quite well (I especially liked the Ettin responding. That will hold a special place in my heart).

OMG PONIES

2014-06-13, 11:32 AM

I've got to find a way to get a Statler and Waldorf ettin NPC in one of my games now . . . :smallcool::smallamused:

I can understand the point about in character disputes being harder to guess what the actual dispute is, but they certainly are entertaining to read. In character rebuttals to in character disputes are equally entertaining.

I'm not saying not to take the dispute seriously, but there really does need to be a TL;DR section to the dispute. I think it was handled quite well (I especially liked the Ettin responding. That will hold a special place in my heart).

Danke! I'm glad people actually enjoyed it. As soon as I got a mental image of a judgemental ettin, I saw nothing else but Waldorf & Statler heads. I'm just glad the reference didn't get lost in translation. I was on the fence about attaching a picture of them, but Google Image Searching "Waldorf Statler Ettin" yielded none of the horrific results I expected from the Internet. In case people don't know who I mean, here's a non-ettin pic of my two favorite Muppets:

http://bigbaddie.com/wp-content/uploads/statler_waldorf_hahaha.jpg

modok thinks all disputes should be in-character disputes

Modok has the best reason for editing I've seen in all my days. *golfclap*

for me, in this case it might not even be that much the IC dispute (although i feel it obtuse, and hard to read as it is), but that its writen in a 'great wall of china text' with any kind of punctuation beyond the fact that some of the text is colored in a fancy color ... which helps jack with reading and comprehension even not accounting for the fact that its tricky to dissect IC disputes in the first place.

to be frank, if i were Judging, i'd probably deny to respond on IC disputes (Specially of the wall of text variant) out of principle, with a "tl;dr, wall of text, scoring stands"

On the topic of in-character disputes, I recall there being a rather good one back in the Thrall of Orcus contest. It was from that Jack Black guy, and his disputes were as Ozzy Osborne. :smalltongue:

It worked particularly well because he went out of his way to quote what he was disputing before delving into the IC chatter, and I'd recommend that to anyone who tries to do so in the future. It helps if we know what you're disputing so that the process doesn't take too long.

Yeah, it can be fun as long as I'm not going back and re-reading four times to be sure I haven't missed or misunderstood the dispute. I didn't find the "wall of text" effect that bad in this particular round, but YMMV. Highlighting the issue under contention is helpful, as are identifying a valid dispute, remaining civil, and finding some amount of brevity. I know, I'm one to talk, right?

TL;DR? I don't care how you dress up your disputes as long as I can understand it, it's a valid dispute, and I don't leave thinking you're actually going to find my house and immolate me.

OMG PONIES totally did it better, by the way. It's not like I was called an orc to tip me off. :smallsigh:

I would actually like to point out that IC stuff is alright and all, but naw. Though it does make the disputes process interesting, I would probably have taken a lot of what was posted up there as derogatory if not inflammatory. Now, I'm more sensitive to that matter than most, mainly because my ego is overcompensating for a lack of practice and ability.

Stop me if you've heard this before.

What do you guys mean, the part where I was referred to as a creature with 6 Intelligence and a lack of personal hygiene skills? Hadn't noticed :smallannoyed:. Plus it's all true; ask my wife!

Rama

2014-06-13, 11:41 AM

Apologies for not getting back to this before now, all. Things have been a bit insane lately :p. Working through disputes now and editing them into this post.

Aldib - +.25 to score

Most of my errors (the human element) were already corrected and the scores as posted include those fixes. As such, no adjustments for those are mandated.

On UotSI... I see where you're coming from; although I still say it isn't a great fit, you've made a case worth a small adjustment. +.25 to UotSI

Graima - scoring stands

The problem power-wise, imo, is that you're not doing anything that anyone spec'd the same way isn't doing. Everyone who can hide (pretty much) is great at it. So just having that as a one trick pony doesn't stand out. And if (when) they do spot you, you don't have much to fall back on.

When I'm referencing offense, defense, utility, in each case it's as much in comparison to the other entries (if not more) than it is in a vacuum.

Orion Garranon - scoring stands

The problem for me is, if it isn't presented I can't judge it. So while you have a huge amount of potential utility in skill points, they're unused skill points. I can't assume you're going to select the most optimal skills and max them out, as opposed to 20 ranks in Craft (Underwater Basket Weaving). Realistically, I know you're probably going to do the right thing. But if it isn't shown, my approach is that I can't assume it. Otherwise I have to make that assumption for everyone, and it becomes a huge slippery slope for me to deal with. Plus I feel I'm not being fair to the entries that did present complete skill lists if I treat it otherwise.

That's where minimal utility comes from. I know it's harsh, but it's the only way I think I can personally judge the entries fairly.

Esmar Tuek - scoring stands

My personal interpretation is that you need to speak their native language, not just other languages that they happen to know as a commonality.

As an example, let's say Elves were your foe. You'd need Elvish; Common wouldn't get the job done, even though they speak it too. It's not "Their" language.

If there's a source that contradicts that, please let me know and I'll adjust.

Amaljss Myund - scoring stands

Love the dispute, but the faint odor of cheese hands 'round it regardless.

Rizzo - scoring stands

1) If you can't be bothered to take the time with a written competition to make sure your written words are in a commonly accepted sentence structure, I can't be bothered to give you written points for it.

2) If your feat selections at the end serve a purpose, you should lay out what that purpose is. As the judging is ultimately my opinion, just saying "well that's your opinion, there's a purpose you don't see" doesn't really do much to change my opinion.

3) As others noted, there are huge problems with using a variant character class with regular base classes. Effectively, the same result in the end score-wise.

I think that's all of them, if I missed one please let me know.

Tim Proctor

2014-06-13, 12:12 PM

Scores:
Four judges, after disputes? (I don't think there are any left open)

Entry
Rama
OMG PONIES
Muggins
Deadline
Total
Place

Creb Covenant
17.5
15.5
17.5
16.75
67.25
1st

Skitters
17.75
17
16.75
15.75
67.25
1st

Adlib
15.25
16.5
16
17.25
65
3rd

Ariadne
15.75
16.5
17.25
15
64.5
4th

Delehdas
14.75
15
17
14.25
61
5th

Esmar Tuek
16.75
15
12.75
15.25
59.75
6th

Graima
13.75
15
16
14
58.75
7th

Amaljss Myund
15.75
16
14
12.75
58.5
8th

Roy
16
15
13
13.25
57.25
9th

Ihlmrhys Do'ar
14
16
13
11.75
54.75
10th

Ryld
13
15
11.5
13.5
53
11th

Rizzo
10.5
14.5
14
10.75
49.75
12th

Steven
12
11
9
12.75
44.75
13th

Orion Garranan
10.5
11.5
9
12.5
43.5
14th

Richard B Riddick
9
8.5
8.25
12
37.75
15th

The only changes from the last one I saw were for adlib the .5 from Ponies and the .25 from Rama... please feel free to correct this if there is something wrong. Also slimelord time

Deadline

2014-06-13, 12:36 PM

Kuulvheysoon

2014-06-13, 01:43 PM

modok thinks all disputes should be in-character disputesMODOK THOUGHT THAT MODOK TALKED TO PUNY HOOMANS IN CAPS-LOCK?

Scores:
Four judges, after disputes? (I don't think there are any left open)

Entry
Rama
OMG PONIES
Muggins
Deadline
Total
Place

Creb Covenant
17.5
15.5
17.5
16.75
67.25
1st

Skitters
17.75
17
16.75
15.75
67.25
1st

Adlib
15.25
16.5
16
17.25
65
3rd

Ariadne
15.75
16.5
17.25
15
64.5
4th

Delehdas
14.75
15
17
14.25
61
5th

Esmar Tuek
16.75
15
12.75
15.25
59.75
6th

Graima
13.75
15
16
14
58.75
7th

Amaljss Myund
15.75
16
14
12.75
58.5
8th

Roy
16
15
13
13.25
57.25
9th

Ihlmrhys Do'ar
14
16
13
11.75
54.75
10th

Ryld
13
15
11.5
13.5
53
11th

Rizzo
10.5
14.5
14
10.75
49.75
12th

Steven
12
11
9
12.75
44.75
13th

Orion Garranan
10.5
11.5
9
12.5
43.5
14th

Richard B Riddick
9
8.5
8.25
12
37.75
15th

The only changes from the last one I saw were for adlib the .5 from Ponies and the .25 from Rama... please feel free to correct this if there is something wrong. Also slimelord time

A last call for mercy came in while I was waiting on PONIES/Rama; it affects the final standings though, (a dispute from Ariadne), otherwise I'd just call it here and now.
@Deadline

First a quick note on TWF being "not well supported." TWF serves as a vessel to add more SA damage, and it might be argued that Shadow Blade gives the full dexterity bonus to damage from attacks made with both weapons, a greater bonus than strength-based TWF.

Second, I feel like you brushed off my concern about lore of the stones without really giving it your attention. I fully trust you that petrified creatures cannot be treated as objects for the purpose of things like sundering. However, while Stone to Flesh works on petrified creatures, it also works on completely mundane stone. As for Break Enchantment doesn't it only work for effects that mention it, like bestow curse? If you know otherwise, please tell me.

Most importantly, your refutation did not address the aspect that is most crucial: stone tell never says it can only be used on objects. It mentions it can be used on natural or worked stone, but it never mentions a third category it cannot be used on, which is especially noteworthy since spells will tell you what you cannot do. Regardless of whether petrified creatures receive special treatment for certain effects, I am using stone tell which is entirely separate from the effects you are mentioning.

As a (huge) hint for the next ingedient while waiting on Deadline... it's a very dippable class that I haven't ever seen a serious build polish off.

It'll come up simulataneously with either the Reveal or about 4ish Mountain Time [GMT-...8? 6? Somewhere in there.] (As that's when my girlfriend and I are leaving to go camping for the weekend).

Amphetryon

2014-06-13, 01:50 PM

MODOK THOUGHT THAT MODOK TALKED TO PUNY HOOMANS IN CAPS-LOCK?
MODOK DISLIKES NEW FORUM CODE THAT SEEMS TO HAVE TROUBLE WITH CAPS-LOCK IN CERTAIN CASES (No matter how I edited it, MODOK's comments would not stay both red and caps-locked.

Kazudo

2014-06-13, 02:27 PM

CAPS-LOCK IN CERTAIN CASES.

I see what you did there.

Deadline

2014-06-13, 03:07 PM

Currently making candied bacon. Dispute response will be eelayed 30 minutes or so.

AvatarVecna

2014-06-13, 03:24 PM

Currently making candied bacon. Dispute response will be eelayed 30 minutes or so.

You don't happen to frequent Cracked.com do you?

Tim Proctor

2014-06-13, 03:52 PM

Currently making candied bacon. Dispute response will be eelayed 30 minutes or so.
Deadline says it's important that we all know we're waiting for his earliest convenience and our desire to know the results is one of his lesser concerns. To compound the level of butt hurt he wants us to know that he's making candied bacon which is extremely delicious and he is going to eat it all while we sit clicking refresh on the page over and over again in angst. :smallbiggrin:

Sian

2014-06-13, 04:18 PM

As a (huge) hint for the next ingedient while waiting on Deadline... it's a very dippable class that I haven't ever seen a serious build polish off.

Shiba Protector? :smallbiggrin:

AvatarVecna

2014-06-13, 04:22 PM

Horizon Walker!

Seriously, though...
Order of the Bow Initiate?
Warshaper?
Exemplar?

Tim Proctor

2014-06-13, 04:25 PM

Horizon Walker!

Seriously, though...
Order of the Bow Initiate?
Warshaper?
Exemplar?

Well Warshaper is 5 levels so it isn't that one, Exemplar is probably the most spalsh-able since it's level 1 is so powerful and easily available. However, I don't think that the Chairman would do two skill heavy secret ingredients back-to-back. I'm guessing a heavy spellcasting class like Ur-Priest, Divine Crusader, or Sublime Chord since those get spalshed for a lot.

Kuulvheysoon

2014-06-13, 04:30 PM

WhamBamSam

2014-06-13, 04:46 PM

Well Warshaper is 5 levels so it isn't that one, Exemplar is probably the most spalsh-able since it's level 1 is so powerful and easily available. However, I don't think that the Chairman would do two skill heavy secret ingredients back-to-back. I'm guessing a heavy spellcasting class like Ur-Priest, Divine Crusader, or Sublime Chord since those get spalshed for a lot.Divine Crusader was already done, and even if you aren't PrCing out in accordance with usual caster optimization, Ur-Priest and Sublime Chord are just too good. There's not that much to optimizing them apart from qualifying on time and not losing caster levels.

Shiba Protector seems like a decent bet. It's a great dip in Wis focused builds, but if you take it the whole way through, its class features start actively working against one another. Also the capstone appears to be straight up non-functional as written.

Deadline

2014-06-13, 04:51 PM

Deadline says it's important that we all know we're waiting for his earliest convenience and our desire to know the results is one of his lesser concerns. To compound the level of butt hurt he wants us to know that he's making candied bacon which is extremely delicious and he is going to eat it all while we sit clicking refresh on the page over and over again in angst. :smallbiggrin:

No, no, that's not it. I'm saying that desire to know the results is less important than candied bacon. And it's true. It's like a fact, but much more delicious. (It will be even more delicious alongside the Challah bread french toast we're having).

That said:

@Deadline

First a quick note on TWF being "not well supported." TWF serves as a vessel to add more SA damage, and it might be argued that Shadow Blade gives the full dexterity bonus to damage from attacks made with both weapons, a greater bonus than strength-based TWF.

The sneak attack bit is a fair point, and looking at my scoring for you, I didn't take that into account (I blame exhaustion).

+0.25 points to Power.

Second, I feel like you brushed off my concern about lore of the stones without really giving it your attention. I fully trust you that petrified creatures cannot be treated as objects for the purpose of things like sundering. However, while Stone to Flesh works on petrified creatures, it also works on completely mundane stone. As for Break Enchantment doesn't it only work for effects that mention it, like bestow curse? If you know otherwise, please tell me.

The bolded bit should be a strong indicator to you as to why my argument is what it is. If petrified creatures were mundane stone, there would be no need to make that clarification. I understand you are disappointed, but you should know that I only penalized you in Elegance for it. And believe me, I gave it quite a bit of my attention (I spent a while pouring through books to see if there was a way that it would work via RAW). Alas, it lives on Rule of Cool alone.

Most importantly, your refutation did not address the aspect that is most crucial: stone tell never says it can only be used on objects. It mentions it can be used on natural or worked stone, but it never mentions a third category it cannot be used on, which is especially noteworthy since spells will tell you what you cannot do. Regardless of whether petrified creatures receive special treatment for certain effects, I am using stone tell which is entirely separate from the effects you are mentioning.

As far as using Lore of Stones on a petrified creature goes, your argument is flawed. D&D is a permissive ruleset, meaning that you can only do things that the rules tell you that you can do. The rules do not have to specify what you can't do. So Stone Tell only works on natural or worked stone, and I continue to contend that a petrified creature does not fall into either category.

No scoring adjustment.

WhamBamSam

2014-06-13, 05:10 PM

Stone Tell only works on natural or worked stone, and I continue to contend that a petrified creature does not fall into either category.[Non-competitor devil's advocacy]Couldn't you make a petrified creature into worked stone, by, y'know, working the stone? Take out a hammer and chisel and give them a little boop. Maybe draw a phallus on their face if you really feel like doing the insult to injury thing.[/Non-competitor devil's advocacy]

Tim Proctor

2014-06-13, 05:16 PM

[Non-competitor devil's advocacy]Couldn't you make a petrified creature into worked stone, by, y'know, working the stone? Take out a hammer and chisel and give them a little boop. Maybe draw a phallus on their face if you really feel like doing the insult to injury thing.[/Non-competitor devil's advocacy]
I just thought of a sick way for a Dwarf to get Earthen Plate by literally wearing his enemies...

I think Deadline should give em' the .25 so Adlib and Ariadne can share 3rd, and this'll be the build of sharing.

OMG PONIES

2014-06-13, 08:23 PM

Before I forget, my Honorable Mention vote gotes to Ihlmrhys. Elegance issues aside, I really dug the unique chassis of Paladin 12 with the options chosen.

Tim Proctor

2014-06-13, 09:59 PM

Before I forget, my Honorable Mention vote gotes to Ihlmrhys. Elegance issues aside, I really dug the unique chassis of Paladin 12 with the options chosen.
I agree, it was certainly the most inventive way that a entrant went.

The Viscount

2014-06-13, 10:25 PM

Thirded. That takes some guts.

AvatarVecna

2014-06-14, 06:49 AM

Fourthed? Is that a word? Anyway, I agree.

Vaz

2014-06-14, 07:46 AM

Dragonslayer? Soul Eater?

Amphetryon

2014-06-14, 08:42 AM

Dragonslayer? Soul Eater?

My guess is something from one of the 'Races of. . .' books.

Tim Proctor

2014-06-14, 09:16 AM

It'll come up simulataneously with either the Reveal or about 4ish Mountain Time [GMT-...8? 6? Somewhere in there.] (As that's when my girlfriend and I are leaving to go camping for the weekend).
I am guessing we missed the deadline and the chairman is off for the weekend.

I'm guessing the 'huge' is the key clue, MoMF maybe (don't know if it's been done).

Sian

2014-06-14, 09:39 AM

given that what we have is

"very dippable"

"haven't seen a build based on it"

I'm still considering Shiba Protector the best bet unless someone can bring up a class just as often dipped into and rarely/never taken beyond that

Piggy Knowles

2014-06-14, 09:56 AM

The chairman mentioned a while back that he wanted to use something from OA, so I'm going to chime in with those that have been guessing Shiba Protector...

Kazudo

2014-06-14, 10:51 AM

War Hulk. My bet's on War Hulk.

AvatarVecna

2014-06-14, 10:59 AM

War Hulk. My bet's on War Hulk.

I hope so. It's gonna be interesting seeing the wide range of high Strength, low BAB characters that will come from such an SI.
Wait...

Kazudo

2014-06-14, 11:42 AM

AvatarVecna

2014-06-14, 11:59 AM

And honestly I've been considering it as a JW ingredient, along with a race or template that gimps STR but with Hulking Hurler being the forbidden ingredient.

Also, possibly using Hulking Hurler and Wizard but no Illumian.

No Hulking Hurler? You mean people would have to actually use War Hulk without completely breaking the game? I'm in.

Kazudo

2014-06-14, 12:05 PM

And actually I misspoke. War Hulk + Wizard - Illumian would be fun.

DeAnno

2014-06-14, 04:41 PM

And honestly I've been considering it as a JW ingredient, along with a race or template that gimps STR but with Hulking Hurler being the forbidden ingredient.

This seems like a good idea.

Vaz

2014-06-15, 03:33 AM

I am guessing we missed the deadline and the chairman is off for the weekend.

I'm guessing the 'huge' is the key clue, MoMF maybe (don't know if it's been done).

MoMF isn't exactly dippable. Its abilities don't get particularly brilliant until level 7, and with only 2 ways in, and 1 of them being a severe decrease in power, and the other a massive power increase, it's not exactly a very Iron Chef friendly challenge.

OMG PONIES

2014-06-15, 05:48 AM

MoMF isn't exactly dippable. Its abilities don't get particularly brilliant until level 7, and with only 2 ways in, and 1 of them being a severe decrease in power, and the other a massive power increase, it's not exactly a very Iron Chef friendly challenge.

We cooked Initiate of Pistis Sophia. We just saw a paladin enter a pretty ranger-specific PrC. There's always another way in.

Sian

2014-06-15, 06:12 AM

Aye ... just found a way to get into MoMF with Warlock or Paladins

OMG PONIES

2014-06-15, 06:54 AM

Trying on a new avatar for size. Hoping the Chairman is enjoying his camping weekend, but I'm ready for the next round!

Vaz

2014-06-15, 12:29 PM

Who are you?

Sian

2014-06-15, 02:01 PM

Fairly certain he is not the former Chinese president:smallbiggrin:

This post is sponsored by Abbott and Costello Entertainment

OMG PONIES

2014-06-16, 08:41 AM

Who are you?

Sometimes even I don't know. :smallwink:

While we're waiting for our Chairman, I may as well kick over this hornet's nest:

My Beef with Disputes

Contrary to the heading, I think disputes are a good thing when done correctly. We don't want another flamewar on our hands like Round VII, which is why the dispute process was started way back when in Round 8 (4 years ago next month, actually!). Disputes help us stay accurate with our math, rules, and consistency in judging. If a judge added wrong, didn't read a feat correctly, or scored the same item differently in two builds, disputes help keep things fair and fun for all involved.

Over the past few rounds (I'd say the past 8 or so), I've become concerned about our disputes. Not only has the number of disputed items seemed to increase exponentially, but the content has also seen a marked change. In more recent rounds, I've seen disputes become more opinion-based (even personal at times), and as such there's been a lot more back-and-forth and open disagreement with the judges. I thought that it might just be my personal take on things, so I went back over every round and crunched some numbers. The results are interesting:

http://i58.tinypic.com/10msswx.png

While we've seen the number of judges hold steady in the normal 1-5 bracket, and the average number of participants has slowly increased from around 5 in the beginning to 15 in more recent rounds, the disputes speak for themselves. They have blown up especially since we hit the big 5-0, and my fear is that if we don't put controls around them they'll continue to choke out this competition.

What, then, should be done? Previous Chairs have put some restrictions around what counts as a dispute. Ozymandias (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=9418299&postcount=307) and Private-Prinny (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=11677221&postcount=199) narrowed down the definition of valid disputes; I propose a return to either of these criteria. While it's great to hear chef's admissions of their own errors or bat around opinions, my experience has been that it clutters the thread and takes the momentum (and a bit of the fun) out of this competition. In the name of fun, I ask that we address this issue.

TL;DR? We may want to re-evaluate our current dispute process. I propose we allow disputes for only the following reasons:

Math error by the judge in tallying score provided.
Rules error by the judge (with citation for correction)*.
Inconsistency from one judge between multiple builds**.

What say we all?

*This is only for blatant rules errors (like when I missed that Skitters could use Evasive Reflexes in place of Combat Reflexes to meet prerequisites), not questionable interpretations (like generic classes and whether "should" means the same thing as "must."

**For instance, not deducting points from one build that dips 3 base classes but taking points from another build that does the same thing. Other comparisons (i.e. "I'm more powerful than Build X, but they got more points") would not fall in the scope of inconsistency and thus would not constitute a valid dispute.

Amphetryon

2014-06-16, 08:51 AM

Sometimes even I don't know. :smallwink:

While we're waiting for our Chairman, I may as well kick over this hornet's nest:

My Beef with Disputes

Contrary to the heading, I think disputes are a good thing when done correctly. We don't want another flamewar on our hands like Round VII, which is why the dispute process was started way back when in Round 8 (4 years ago next month, actually!). Disputes help us stay accurate with our math, rules, and consistency in judging. If a judge added wrong, didn't read a feat correctly, or scored the same item differently in two builds, disputes help keep things fair and fun for all involved.

Over the past few rounds (I'd say the past 8 or so), I've become concerned about our disputes. Not only has the number of disputed items seemed to increase exponentially, but the content has also seen a marked change. In more recent rounds, I've seen disputes become more opinion-based (even personal at times), and as such there's been a lot more back-and-forth and open disagreement with the judges. I thought that it might just be my personal take on things, so I went back over every round and crunched some numbers. The results are interesting:

http://i58.tinypic.com/10msswx.png

While we've seen the number of judges hold steady in the normal 1-5 bracket, and the average number of participants has slowly increased from around 5 in the beginning to 15 in more recent rounds, the disputes speak for themselves. They have blown up especially since we hit the big 5-0, and my fear is that if we don't put controls around them they'll continue to choke out this competition.

What, then, should be done? Previous Chairs have put some restrictions around what counts as a dispute.
I'd personally prefer the dispute process limited in future rounds to a single dispute post per contestant per judge, rather than the occasional back-and-forth we've seen. I think that by limiting it in this way, we can largely avoid 'opinion-based and personal back-and-forth' disputes that can come across as bickering.

I make no claim that I've stuck to the above paradigm in this or previous rounds, only that I will strive to do so going forward.

Tim Proctor

2014-06-16, 09:32 AM

I think there are a couple issues involved here:

1) judgements (recently) seem to be based on summary opinion a lot and less on a methodological evaluation. The statements like 'I feel this build doesn't incorporate the feel of the SI' is going to get disputed because it is nearly meaningless. Breaking the SI into areas or factors that can be thematically or mechanically evaluated and judging by the inclusion or exclusion of those factors, will lead to a lot less opinion based disputes.

2) judgements (recently) seem to be shorter, and not as much detail is included. Take Esmar Tuek, there is the Know. Devotion FtQ which was carried over to a FtQ for the SI. But as Muggins' original judgement says they didn't get the skill, then later that they didn't qualify for the feats that would have given them the skill. Had it originally explained that they FtQd for the feat and that is why, there would have been one less dispute. I'm guessing it is from the large number of builds, limited time, etc. but I think 1/3rd of disputes (just an estimation based on a cursory glance at the disputes) are from some type of miscommunication.

3) I don't think the back and forth is a bad thing, in all cases, sometimes issues are complex and need a couple passes to get ironed out. The speak language thing for the foe-hunter was one of those issues where stuff happened.

4) How many of the disputes are the same dispute but to different judges? The speak-language thing seemed to be an issue this round where a contestant had to state to each judge that aberration don't have a unified language. I think notes on the build that include basic info for qualifications would help reduce the number of disputes a lot.

relytdan

2014-06-16, 09:41 AM

TL;DR? We may want to re-evaluate our current dispute process. I propose we allow disputes for only the following reasons:

Math error by the judge in tallying score provided.
Rules error by the judge (with citation for correction)*.
Inconsistency from one judge between multiple builds**.

What say we all?

as a whole I would tend to agree with the follow notations.

Math errors can be addressed & typically is without a disputed process

Rules error - This is subjected to both RAW and RAI and how any one judge may interpret the way something is written and then set forth their own RAI or opinion as law or RAW - like some dispute pointed out this round. but this should be resolved via the dispute process

Inconsistency errors between builds - this does happen. this is one that surely should be resolved via the dispute process

Sian

2014-06-16, 09:41 AM

While the last one would help quite a bit, i think its at least as tough to pull though in practice, since for the most part its due to failure to consider that something or other is able to be misunderstood (such as questioning which language if any that Foe Hunter should have) ... and not helped by the fact that looking at Graima, it's mentioned doing the breakdown that Aberrations have no racial language as read, but if judges say otherwise theres enough open langauges to fix it ... but it doesn't have fewer disputes over this question than Esmar which doesn't have such a note

Telonius

2014-06-16, 09:53 AM

My two coppers - While this round was my first entry for Iron Chef, I've submitted a few for Junkyard Wars. Back in Round 2, one of the judges missed that my build had Able Learner. (Without it, I wouldn't have had enough skill points to qualify). I clarified that using the dispute process there, showed where in the build it was and what the actual published rule was, and the ruling was fixed with minimal fuss. That kind of dispute (where the judge just plain misses something, and it's not a very emotional thing) is the ideal situation, and the dispute process is the ideal solution. For other kinds of disputes, I think it doesn't work as well.

Piggy Knowles

2014-06-16, 10:28 AM

Dang, Ponies, you beat me to the punch - and with statistics!

I haven't participated much the last several rounds, but I always remain a spectator, and I agree 100% with everything OMG has brought up. The disputes have gotten out of hand, in my view. I was thinking of posting something to this effect, but Ponies has said it all far more eloquently than I could.

My own opinion about what constitutes a valid dispute is quite similar to Ponies' list:

The judge missed something ("You penalized me for not having Bluff as a class skill, but actually, I picked it up via this ACF.")
There is a rules error ("You said this class can't progress artificer infusions, but in MoE p140, it clarifies that it can.")
Inconsistency between entries for a single judge ("You penalized me for having too low of a BAB to be effective in melee, but you didn't penalize Build X, which has the exact same BAB.")

Things that I DON'T feel make for valid disputes:

Disagreement about the effectiveness, elegance or originality of a build where not covered above ("You said I wasn't a useful character, so here is a list of my abilities to refute you." - it's up to the judge to decide each category, and while it's unfortunate if you don't see eye to eye, that's why we try to have multiple judges.)
Clarifications on things left out of your entry ("Oh, you dinged me for not having a certain ability, but I intended him to take this particular spell that would overcome that issue." - the dispute process is not the place to edit or clarify your build. If it's important, put it in the initial write up.)
Personal issues with the judge, or critiques of someone's judging ("I think you're doing a bad job." - if you think a judge is biased or doesn't have a clear enough understanding of the rules to judge consistently, I'd recommend you contact the chair. Don't attack someone publicly just because they don't like your entry.)

I've been guilty of at least two out if three of the things from my "don't" category, but I really do try not to. Judging is hard, the contest is for fun, and sometimes people disagree about things. Some of my favorite builds have gotten meh ratings from judges who don't agree with me. It sucks to see something you're proud of, something you've worked hard on, get a bad or mediocre score, and it's really tempting to try to argue it. But it also makes the whole contest less pleasant for everyone involved.

Amphetryon

2014-06-16, 10:43 AM

For Ponies' (excellent) bullet points on 'valid' disputes, we may need some clarification on what qualifies as 'rules error/missed something' versus 'things left out of your entry.' For a personal example from a previous round's build, does having a high enough INT to qualify for a Bonus Language - with a given PrC having a specific 'Language spoken' requirement that's on your Race's list of available Bonus Languages - but not listing the language(s) taken via high INT count as 'missed something' or 'left out of your entry?'

There are certainly other examples where one person's 'the judge missed something' might be another person's idea of 'you left something out of your entry.'

Kazudo

2014-06-16, 10:56 AM

You wouldn't believe it, Telonius, but there are many disputes that I've gotten even in the past three rounds that have been handled by myself personally before submitting, and some of said disputes have been pruned down to just what I felt was dispute-critical while handling the rest in a non-public way.

The problem (that Deadline and I specifically see a problem with) is that some of us aren't just here for the food, and some of us aren't here for the numbers, some of us really are here to become better chefs whether by judging and being exposed to many lines of thought or by competing and failing miserably. A line-item criterion does nothing for us while it may do everything for people who want the numbers. The competition existing AT ALL is great for people who want the food.

It's the old SimCity problem. You can't make everyone happy all the time and run a successful show. The problem is that when running a competition (I said this in Zinc Saucier and Junkyard Wars, might as well say it here), the Chairpersons are asking the judges for their opinions. What would the point be of having 4 Judgebot3000s who use the same line-item criteria? Alternatively, having Curly, Moe, Larry, and Shemp as judges gives us four (albeit loony and prone to crazy hijinks) different opinions about what is honestly an opinion-based contest for the most part. So then we ask these judges for their opinions and what. Just let the competitors and judges have a back and forth about nitpicks? If it were a CONSTRUCTIVE back and forth which was creating opportunities to learn and grow that's one thing, but they quickly become squabbles and arguments, and a judge which doesn't answer each dispute regardless of the number of times they get it from the same person is QUICKLY considered to be unacceptable.

Vaz

2014-06-16, 11:06 AM

I'd just like to make the point that since we are past judging times, and disputes are now ended, that I'm making this point as the author of Riddick in this competition. Like I mentioned earlier, I do have disputes, but it makes no difference either way - even if I somehow managed to net a further 10 points, I'd still only be 11th. That's down to both errors on my part, and also the judges being harsh. Now that judging has finished, I'll use examples from my build that was brought up, as well as ones that I've seen happen in the past - I do not expect these to be answered or rectified, or honestly want them to be. They are used as explanatory examples for my points, as I'm not particularly erudite or capable of expressing what I want to say completely, which is where I hope the examples help my point.

With regards to me not disputing due to my position, I'd like to posit (and believe, now, even if I've not completely held true to that before, that unless you believe that your dispute can alter who gets into the top 3 or the order thereof, then the disputees themselves should not enter a dispute. And also that the chairman should be able to reject disputes if such does happen. This may come across as affecting the chairmans supposed impartiality, but I do not believe it does. Each judge so far has to make, hopefully, unbiased, blind (with regards to the authors) comments about the originality, power, UoSI and its overall "elegance"

Secondly, I think judges should not show leniency, personally, but rather more of a permissive attitude. I do not say this in the need for calling judges out, but these are characters that we are designing to be a part of a generic table. Not one that's going to be entered in a national character building optimization contest which relies on having perfectly observed rules. To use masterchef, an equivalent competition over in the UK as an example here, the judges judge on personal taste. If someone comes up with a dish that's not technically rules legal (fish with red wine, say), but if it tastes nice, then it should be ruled as such.

I'm not suggesting for an instant that ignoring prerequisites for example is allowed, or blatant disregarding of rules, but rather small modifications to the rules, based on what they'd allow in game. We've had this discussion before, with the Swordsage argument - basically, if the judge was the DM, "would they let it fly in their game?" should they let it fly in their game. We are looking for "something cool" here.

Some examples I believe;

Focused Lexicon; we all know it sucks, it makes the checks, harder, not the saves. If someone takes it as a feat, you'd almost always say "it applies to the save DC's".
Unarmed Swordsage; there are no rules to present it, but it's rare we have a IC without one of these showing up somewhere, and yet it's pretty much never disallowed.

For example, in this round, I entered Riddick, a Deep Imaskari character with the Able Learner feat, which is normally humans only - now while RAW (that famous thing that allows Drown Healing and Pun-Pun, I'd like to point out) doesn't make regard to his humanoid ancestors (this is in the fluff for Deep Imaskari - which admittedly may have been overlooked), this was quite heavily penalised (2pts, I think, over all of the judges - not that Elegance was ever going to be my highest point. However, it did feel slightly... annoying is too strong a word, but you get my point to recieve negativity that fluff prerequisites for somethings weren't met, yet the fluff mentioned otherwise for some others.

Petrified Creatures; are these creatures or objects - one of the few disputes I've "read", there was an undue attention paid to whether it actually counted as a creature or object. Personally, if you were in a game, would you say "you know what, that's really cool", or "nope. That's not what the rules say." Elegance is where a lot of people lose points. Whether that's due to errors, or hoping the judge would let something slide that they could easily ask their DM to do, or through stylistic choices (I took Flaws knowing full well that I'd drop points there), there are probably more dropped points in elegance.

In one of the Zinc Saucier challenges I judged, I had a Psionic Mindflayer being used using the Savage Species progression (done before the Psionic Illithid came to light) - it was not technically legal, but it was easy enough to work around. IIRC, I judged it quite harshly after initially judging it a failure to qualify; both of which I kind of regret, because it stifles the competition, I feel - it's why in a couple of my entries I have looked at other materials - such as none-IC allowed Dragon Magazines or 3rd party content, like Rokugan, and made note of its existence. More choice results in better content.

I'm beginning to ramble here, so I'll make it clear what my proposed changes are; see Ponies post for the asterisked.

- Math error by the judge in tallying score provided.
- Rules error by the judge (with citation for correction)*.
- Inconsistency from one judge between multiple builds**.
- Only one dispute per entrant per judge. Judge will have then have looked at your entry twice at minimum, which is enough for them to have made a decision over the matter once you have "justified" rules errors.
- Only if you are capable of changing the order between the top 3 entrants should you consider disputing. The Chairman reserves the right to refuse posting the dispute (and should PM back to say why they are not - if the difference between the 3rd and 4th place is 3 or more points, it's highly unlikely to change the order)

These changes would also come with a caveat expectance from judges as well as entrants however.

Entrants - using dodgy, questionable stuff - such as explicitly called out Unearthed Arcana material like Flaws or Generic classes, expect heavy penalties. As, I think it was piggy, said earlier, you're effectively playing a different game to everyone else. This may also include fan-favourites like the Prestige Paladin etc. If you want to risk it, go for it. But do not abuse the dispute process by quibbling with the judges regarding elegance and uses thereof.

Judges - do not be so harsh with judging. Using the petrified character turned to stone, as an example again, small allowances can and should be made, I personally believe. Make note of it, by all means, but I do not personally think that docking points for someone coming up with a cool idea that's outside of the box is going to make people too happy. After all, we've gone to quite some effort to create these things. There is an appreciation from the entrants that someone is stepping up and judging, but like mentioned, we're not going into world championships where to ensure we're all on the same RAW-level playing field we have to submit urine tests to prove we're not on any sort of illegal chemical brain stimulant.

TL/DR; Contestants, don't abuse the system, judges, don't be too harsh. This is meant to be a fun competition for all of us.

My final comment on the matter is as a contestant, I do not appreciate having my "work" being told it is "not amusing" for someone, even if it was a general comment made. With respect to whoever it was whose life I made so unbearable by making a build for them, you would not appreciate me coming along and saying your judging was a load of crap. I'd keep such comments to yourself, in future. It's kind of disparaging and uncalled for. Let the scores speak for themselves.

Tim Proctor

2014-06-16, 11:20 AM

I want to clarify that me statement about summary opinion is not that opinion shouldn't exist. The statement was that opinion without basis is a big cause for a lot of disputes. 'Your build is weak', is a lot different than, 'you lack the versatility of stealth, scouting, magic, and only do an average of 76 points damage on a full attack at level 20', one will get disputes and the other probably wont. One leads to opinion based disputes, while the second leads to mechanical disputes where a contestant can dispute the actual issues. If judges leave only opinions then an entrant can't dispute anything but the opinion.

Deadline

2014-06-16, 11:21 AM

For what it's worth, I'm NOT in favor of rigid judging criteria, because at that point, you could just score your own builds (you don't need the judges). I'd much rather get the kind of feedback we get in Iron Chef. Including statements like 'I feel this build doesn't incorporate the feel of the SI' - I recognize those for what they are (the judge's opinion, and not something up for debate or dispute). If they are the only thing included, then I can see the issue, but including them alongside the rest of the reasoning should not be an issue.

Judges - do not be so harsh with judging. Using the petrified character turned to stone, as an example again, small allowances can and should be made, I personally believe. Make note of it, by all means, but I do not personally think that docking points for someone coming up with a cool idea that's outside of the box is going to make people too happy. After all, we've gone to quite some effort to create these things.

It's worth noting, that in both cases where this issue came up, I awarded points in Originality for the clever ideas. But I stand by my listed reasons for the deduction in Elegance.

My final comment on the matter is as a contestant, I do not appreciate having my "work" being told it is "not amusing" for someone, even if it was a general comment made. With respect to whoever it was whose life I made so unbearable by making a build for them, you would not appreciate me coming along and saying your judging was a load of crap. I'd keep such comments to yourself, in future. It's kind of disparaging and uncalled for. Let the scores speak for themselves.

I agree, and my apologies if I said anything to this effect. I really enjoy reading the dishes for Iron Chef, and while it is a lot of work to go through them for judging purposes, it is something I volunteered for, so I shouldn't be complaining. Again, my apologies to the chefs this round for any comments like this that I made - it was definitely uncalled for.

Rama

2014-06-16, 11:30 AM

My final comment on the matter is as a contestant, I do not appreciate having my "work" being told it is "not amusing" for someone, even if it was a general comment made. With respect to whoever it was whose life I made so unbearable by making a build for them, you would not appreciate me coming along and saying your judging was a load of crap. I'd keep such comments to yourself, in future. It's kind of disparaging and uncalled for. Let the scores speak for themselves.

I agree, and my apologies if I said anything to this effect. I really enjoy reading the dishes for Iron Chef, and while it is a lot of work to go through them for judging purposes, it is something I volunteered for, so I shouldn't be complaining. Again, my apologies to the chefs this round for any comments like this that I made - it was definitely uncalled for.

Seconded here; when I'm typing up my judging I tend to do stream-of-consciousness first then go back and edit over it. As a result, I might miss re-phrasing something that comes out more harshly than I intend. If that's the case, my apologies.

As an aside, as I've said before I welcome direct feedback/criticism of my scoring, and anyone that wishes to do so at any time please send me a PM. I figure I can't improve myself if I'm not equally open to indicators where i might need to change. I may not agree in the end, but I appreciate the conversation regardless.

Tim Proctor

2014-06-16, 11:32 AM

Piggy Knowles

2014-06-16, 11:45 AM

When I judge, I always try to be as explicit as possible - but sometimes it's hard, because it IS just a feeling. For example, Deadline's Warblade entry in Urban Soul just felt like an Urban Soul in the way a lot of other entries didn't - it felt like an essential part of his character concept, rather than something he took for the contest. I have him a bonus in UoSI for that, a bonus a lot of other builds didn't get - but there was no single thing I could have pointed to and said, "This here is why he got this bonus and you didn't."

So yeah, I'm fully in favor of providing justification when you can as a judge, but if you can't, I don't think that should make your feedback more open to disputes, or your opinion more open to criticism.

dysprosium

2014-06-16, 12:13 PM

Wow, lots to talk about here. But first, Mr Chairman how was your trip?

I agree that the dispute process has been getting out of hand lately and the points that OMG Ponies (with new avatar?) and Piggy Knowles have listed make the most sense and something that has been advocated before.

I agree that there should NOT be a "uniform judging standard"--if I wanted to play Accountants & Arithmetic then I would just go to work.

Looking at the table the highest spikes were for Round LI (with the whole refusal-to-judge-gate) and Round LIII (which had a lot of one word phrases that passed itself off as judging).

I know that when I judge I like to explain myself as much as possible to prevent as many disputes from coming as possible. I also try to explain what I liked and did not like about the build. But we all have to remember that judging is nearly entirely subjective and opinion. That is the point after all--to find out how others (peers) liked the build created when compared to other builds. I've said this before multiple times--some judges are just not going to like certain builds. No amount of disputes are going to change a judge's opinion.

I know when I first started entering these I found the judgings to be invaluable. They made me become a better builder. Some judgings were harder than others for sure like the trouncing of my Zerth Cenobite or disqualification of one of my Cipher Adepts, but when I can get Ponies to call something in my build an "inspired combination" like in my Mountebank gold it makes it worthwhile.

I also agree with Vaz's statement that contestants should not try to abuse the system. The opening posts for the Rounds are as long as they are for a reason.

This is supposed to be fun after all.

OMG PONIES

2014-06-16, 12:58 PM

As predicted, I've blown up the thread. Apologies, Herr Chairman, but I think it's a discussion worth having. If not, let me know and I'll cork it.

I'd personally prefer the dispute process limited in future rounds to a single dispute post per contestant per judge, rather than the occasional back-and-forth we've seen. I think that by limiting it in this way, we can largely avoid 'opinion-based and personal back-and-forth' disputes that can come across as bickering.

Seconded. This would allow the contestant a chance to express any disputable points, but might encourage the disputes to state their claim in a compelling, even-keeled manner.

Dang, Ponies, you beat me to the punch - and with statistics!

I haven't participated much the last several rounds, but I always remain a spectator, and I agree 100% with everything OMG has brought up. The disputes have gotten out of hand, in my view. I was thinking of posting something to this effect, but Ponies has said it all far more eloquently than I could.

My own opinion about what constitutes a valid dispute is quite similar to Ponies' list:

The judge missed something ("You penalized me for not having Bluff as a class skill, but actually, I picked it up via this ACF.")
There is a rules error ("You said this class can't progress artificer infusions, but in MoE p140, it clarifies that it can.")
Inconsistency between entries for a single judge ("You penalized me for having too low of a BAB to be effective in melee, but you didn't penalize Build X, which has the exact same BAB.")

Things that I DON'T feel make for valid disputes:

Disagreement about the effectiveness, elegance or originality of a build where not covered above ("You said I wasn't a useful character, so here is a list of my abilities to refute you." - it's up to the judge to decide each category, and while it's unfortunate if you don't see eye to eye, that's why we try to have multiple judges.)
Clarifications on things left out of your entry ("Oh, you dinged me for not having a certain ability, but I intended him to take this particular spell that would overcome that issue." - the dispute process is not the place to edit or clarify your build. If it's important, put it in the initial write up.)
Personal issues with the judge, or critiques of someone's judging ("I think you're doing a bad job." - if you think a judge is biased or doesn't have a clear enough understanding of the rules to judge consistently, I'd recommend you contact the chair. Don't attack someone publicly just because they don't like your entry.)

I've been guilty of at least two out if three of the things from my "don't" category, but I really do try not to. Judging is hard, the contest is for fun, and sometimes people disagree about things. Some of my favorite builds have gotten meh ratings from judges who don't agree with me. It sucks to see something you're proud of, something you've worked hard on, get a bad or mediocre score, and it's really tempting to try to argue it. But it also makes the whole contest less pleasant for everyone involved.

My name is OMG PONIES, and I approve this message.

For Ponies' (excellent) bullet points on 'valid' disputes, we may need some clarification on what qualifies as 'rules error/missed something' versus 'things left out of your entry.' For a personal example from a previous round's build, does having a high enough INT to qualify for a Bonus Language - with a given PrC having a specific 'Language spoken' requirement that's on your Race's list of available Bonus Languages - but not listing the language(s) taken via high INT count as 'missed something' or 'left out of your entry?'

There are certainly other examples where one person's 'the judge missed something' might be another person's idea of 'you left something out of your entry.'

This is where I think we'd still need to handle on a case-by-case basis, to allow room for adaptability and flexibility. Ultimately, it could be left to the Chairman to determine whether it was a rules error by the judge or an omission by the entrant, I suppose.

You wouldn't believe it, Telonius, but there are many disputes that I've gotten even in the past three rounds that have been handled by myself personally before submitting, and some of said disputes have been pruned down to just what I felt was dispute-critical while handling the rest in a non-public way.

This has also been done by ICO Chairpeople past and present.

OMG Ponies (with new avatar?)

Chyeah buddy, puking rainbows!

I know that when I judge I like to explain myself as much as possible to prevent as many disputes from coming as possible. I also try to explain what I liked and did not like about the build. But we all have to remember that judging is nearly entirely subjective and opinion. That is the point after all--to find out how others (peers) liked the build created when compared to other builds. I've said this before multiple times--some judges are just not going to like certain builds. No amount of disputes are going to change a judge's opinion.

I know when I first started entering these I found the judgings to be invaluable. They made me become a better builder. Some judgings were harder than others for sure like the trouncing of my Zerth Cenobite or disqualification of one of my Cipher Adepts, but when I can get Ponies to call something in my build an "inspired combination" like in my Mountebank gold it makes it worthwhile.

I also agree with Vaz's statement that contestants should not try to abuse the system. The opening posts for the Rounds are as long as they are for a reason.

This is supposed to be fun after all.

My name is OMG PONIES, and I app--you get the idea. Herr Chairman, what are your thoughts on adopting a "one shot" method of making disputes that fall into a handful of preselected criteria, or even Chairman paraphrases of contestant disputes to soften some of the emotion involved? I know that either creates oodles more work for you, so as our unofficial archivist I also volunteer my services as unofficial dispute mediator or official Chairman should you wish to take a break or even participate as a contestant or judge in future rounds.