Why is craft on every base class skill list?

[Catalysis]

Question says it all!

It's just been bothering me for some time:smallsmile:
Thank you in advance!

[HammeredWharf]

None of the base classes are fluffed as crafters, so Craft is out of the class system's jurisdiction. Well, that's my theory, but I don't think there's an official statement on this.

[Arc_knight25]

I'm going to go with flavour. Helps with background story sometimes, also it can be a nice +2 synergy bonus to a related check using another knowledge or skill.

[Vogonjeltz]

Question says it all!

It's just been bothering me for some time:smallsmile:
Thank you in advance!

Because craft is useful for all classes.

[sideswipe]

because against popular playground belief people are people. everybody has a hobby or an interest and some are not covered by other means. a fighter just so happens to love whittling small statues of animals but is dumb and is bad at it. but he still has invested some of his time in doing so.

characters in optimised games are 5ft cubes of relative flesh with items glued to them and have no personality.

other types of game play have people fluffed past "i am rationalising why i have cheesed my character".

[HaikenEdge]

I'm with sideswipe. In addition to the usual, useful/prereq Craft skills, there're also things like Craft (Cooking) or Craft (Music) that can be hobbies for characters.

[Red Fel]

'Cause I may be the best at what I do, Bub, and what I do ain't pretty, but my pa sculpted those little porcelain figurines of the kids with the creepy eyes, and his pa did before him, and so help me, I'm gonna go sculpt me some o' those little porcelain figurines of the kids with the creepy eyes. And it ain't gonna be pretty.

[MirddinEmris]

'Cause I may be the best at what I do, Bub, and what I do ain't pretty, but my pa sculpted those little porcelain figurines of the kids with the creepy eyes, and his pa did before him, and so help me, I'm gonna go sculpt me some o' those little porcelain figurines of the kids with the creepy eyes. And it ain't gonna be pretty.

Red Fel, you are just awesome :smallsmile:

[LordBlades]

because against popular playground belief people are people. everybody has a hobby or an interest and some are not covered by other means. a fighter just so happens to love whittling small statues of animals but is dumb and is bad at it. but he still has invested some of his time in doing so.

characters in optimised games are 5ft cubes of relative flesh with items glued to them and have no personality.

other types of game play have people fluffed past "i am rationalising why i have cheesed my character".

The question is, why must having a hobby have to do with being worse at doing useful stuff? If carving small statues of animals is just a RP bit with no actual mechanical benefit, why not just have it in your background and occasionally have your character craft statues? Why the need for actual skill point investment?

Consider two rogue twins, perfectly identical: Alf and Bob. Alf enjoys reading and spends 1 hour/day reading. Bob enjoys wood sculptures and spends 1 hour/day sculpting. By you I assume Bob would have ranks in Craft (Sculpting)? So why does their choice of hobby mean thay Alf is a more skilled rogue than Bob?

[Red Fel]

Consider two rogue twins, perfectly identical: Alf and Bob. Alf enjoys reading and spends 1 hour/day reading. Bob enjoys wood sculptures and spends 1 hour/day sculpting. By you I assume Bob would have ranks in Craft (Sculpting)? So why does their choice of hobby mean thay Alf is a more skilled rogue than Bob?

Because if Alf spends one hour reading, he has read for an hour. If Bob spends one hour sculpting, he has an hour's worth of wood sculpture that he can sell for a profit.

The mechanics tend to ignore things that have no impact on a character. Reading for an hour may not have an impact on your character. But spending an hour turning raw materials into marketable goods has an impact - an impact on your pocketbook. So you sacrifice skill points that could be spend practicing Move Silently or Hide, and instead practice carving little wooden trolls with big terrifying eyes to sell to dim children and their grandmothers. Whereas if you read, it has so little mechanical impact that there's no need to assume it distracts you from your "Pretend to be Batman" training.

[HighWater]

The question is, why must having a hobby have to do with being worse at doing useful stuff? If carving small statues of animals is just a RP bit with no actual mechanical benefit, why not just have it in your background and occasionally have your character craft statues? Why the need for actual skill point investment?
It sounds like you are Questioning the Almighty Designers!

Yes, Craft is a class-skill for all characters. It is so the pretense that the DnD-mechanics aren't all-about-knifing-people can be upheld. DnD mechanics are really all about knifing people though, except for some very nice uses, Craft and Profession are mechanically very useless for most characters.

You can roleplay in DnD just fine, and in fact you're generally not required to make any kind of mechanical investment for that. Craft and Profession are for those who feel they must pay some mechanical price for their roleplay choices.

[Red Fel]

Craft and Profession are for those who feel they must pay some mechanical price for their roleplay choices.

Or for people who want to be the dwarfiest dwarf who ever dwarfed (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?344798-Soul-and-Steel-A-Guide-to-the-Ironsoul-Forgemaster-%28WIP-PEACH%29). I'm on a horse.

[Serafina]

Well, what class shouldn't have craft on their skill list?
Fighters can be smiths, Wizards can be scribes, Rogues can be alchemists, Rangers can be trapsmiths, Barbarians can be leather- or woodworkers etc. etc.
That is to say, every class can fit well with at least one craft-skill, if not several. It makes sense to say "okay, so fighters and wizards aren't good at stealth" or "Rogues don't know much about other planes" - the same doesn't go for craft.

[manyslayer]

Well, neither the Knight (PHBII) or Marshal (MiniHB) have craft as a class skill. I guess its beneath them to do such menial labor.

[dascarletm]

Sometimes it is cool to be a warblade that makes souffles.

[squiggit]

Well, neither the Knight (PHBII) or Marshal (MiniHB) have craft as a class skill. I guess its beneath them to do such menial labor.

Neither do Jester, Battledancer or Mountebank from Dragon Compendium.

[Gildedragon]

So a Jester can't Craft [Jokes]?!
No wonder all their material feels old

[Catalysis]

Interesting. Roleplay mechanics and background, plus poket change. I have my answer:)

Thanks playground!

Also: great jokes:smalltongue:

[John Longarrow]

So a Jester can't Craft [Jokes]?!
No wonder all their material feels old

And you wonder why all of the late night hosts have comedy writers on staff???

[KorbeltheReader]

As a corollary to this question, why are listen and spot NOT on everybody's lists?

[atemu1234]

Mostly so they can all fix their equipment if they need to.

[ArqArturo]

I had a Swashbuckler/Rogue with delusions of paladinhood that had a couple of ranks in craft (writing). Our adventuring company (yes, company, with business cards (http://youtu.be/cISYzA36-ZY) and all) had to do the occasional field report to a nobleman that kept fetching us work, but soon enough we suspected he was a little too interested in devilish activity and sacrificial ritual.

So, in that, sense, I decided to... Omit some stuff. Also to hide some details (Bluff+craft).

[Coidzor]

As far as Craft's ubiquity goes, I think the designers just couldn't think of any conceptual reason to limit Craft and it became a legacy choice for the base classes that were published after the PHB.


As a corollary to this question, why are listen and spot NOT on everybody's lists?

Well there's the real answer where we haven't the darnedest clue what the devs were thinking. And then there's the tongue in cheek answer where we pantomime consuming vast quantities of alcohol.

I tend to think of it as an oversight and houserule to fix it.

[ArqArturo]

As far as Craft's ubiquity goes, I think the designers just couldn't think of any conceptual reason to limit Craft and it became a legacy choice for the base classes that were published after the PHB.



Well there's the real answer where we haven't the darnedest clue what the devs were thinking. And then there's the tongue in cheek answer where we pantomime consuming vast quantities of alcohol.

I tend to think of it as an oversight and houserule to fix it.

I guess you have to see the developing of these rules to get an idea of what they were looking at.

Puns aside, they did add Perception to the Fighter skill selection.

[Knaight]

As a corollary to this question, why are listen and spot NOT on everybody's lists?

I don't know, but I consider it a failing of the game system. Granted, I'm not fond of the whole class skill/ cross-class skill paradigm to begin with.

[Kazudo]

I don't know, but I consider it a failing of the game system. Granted, I'm not fond of the whole class skill/ cross-class skill paradigm to begin with.

In most low-op rules-light rp-heavy my table doesn't abide by class/cross-class skills. It makes this much easier in the long run, since by that point skills arent necessarily rolled as much as they are roleplayed.

[Seerow]

I don't know, but I consider it a failing of the game system. Granted, I'm not fond of the whole class skill/ cross-class skill paradigm to begin with.

This is one area I really have to give credit to Pathfinder for fixing. When the difference between someone with a class skill and a cross class skill is just +3, it's much easier to deal with, and make oddball concepts work without feeling gimped.

[Calimehter]

Sometimes it is cool to be a warblade that makes souffles.

"Hmmm, the oven thermostat is acting all wonky again."

IRON . . . HEART. . . SUUURRRGGGEEEE!!!!!!!!!

[Gildedragon]

"Hmmm, the oven thermostat is acting all wonky again."

IRON . . . HEART. . . SUUURRRGGGEEEE!!!!!!!!!

Feels like IHS would fix all cooking problems: Apples too sour/too green
well that is affecting you. IHS! Fruit is ripe
Meringue too stiff, or not stiffing up properly... IHS...

Really this warblade doesn't so much cook as yell and brandish his whisk at ingredients... and produce gourmet meals

[Deophaun]

Sometimes it is cool to be a warblade that makes souffles.
Where did you get the milk and eggs?

[Seerow]

Where did you get the milk and eggs?

http://hdfons.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Cow_and-Chicken-wallpaper.jpg

[Coidzor]

http://hdfons.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Cow_and-Chicken-wallpaper.jpg

Behold the power of IHS. You can even use it to get eggs from roosters.

[Seerow]

Behold the power of IHS. You can even use it to get eggs from roosters.

The show's called "Cow and Chicken" now "Cow and Rooster", regardless of Chicken's physical appearance.

[Gildedragon]

The show's called "Cow and Chicken" now "Cow and Rooster", regardless of Chicken's physical appearance.

Yeah and Saturday Night Live is rerun while the sun is up during other days of the week.
It's like the whole "Boy named Sue" thing. Names lie unless you're a truenamer...
and if you're a truenamer someone else lied to you, big time.

[Vogonjeltz]

As a corollary to this question, why are listen and spot NOT on everybody's lists?

Because having skills in those represents extraordinarily high level of competence/training in those activities. Two for two on one line answers! Vogonjeltz is on FIAAAHHH!!! ;p

[Rubik]

because against popular playground belief people are people. everybody has a hobby or an interest and some are not covered by other means. a fighter just so happens to love whittling small statues of animals but is dumb and is bad at it. but he still has invested some of his time in doing so.

characters in optimised games are 5ft cubes of relative flesh with items glued to them and have no personality.

other types of game play have people fluffed past "i am rationalising why i have cheesed my character".Stormwind Fallacy, anyone?

[ArqArturo]

Behold the power of IHS. You can even use it to get eggs from roosters.

But will it blend?.

[Gildedragon]

But will it blend?.

Things being unblended affects me
IHS!
Things are blended

Alternatively, get a petal whirling frenzy barbarian; chuck tomatoes, peppers, onions, etc while they are standing in a bowl. Get actual chunky salsa.

[Deophaun]

IHS existing affects me.
IHS!
IHS no longer exists.

[Seerow]

IHS existing affects me.
IHS!
IHS no longer exists.

You Maniac! You blew it up! Ah, damn you! God damn you to hell!

[The Viscount]

Beguiler also lacks craft as a class skill, I guess because it only knows about making illusions and other fake things.

On a related humorous note, aristocrat doesn't have profession as a class skill.

[Knaight]

Because having skills in those represents extraordinarily high level of competence/training in those activities. Two for two on one line answers! Vogonjeltz is on FIAAAHHH!!! ;p

Sure, but that doesn't mean that they shouldn't be on every list, only that not every character should take them.

[lunar2]

why would a wizard, who spends all day studying, or a sorcerer who spends all day flirting, or a cleric, who spends all day praying, have spot and listen as class skills? 2 of those even have little animal friends to do the spot and listen for them, so they have double reason not to train in it.

[The Oni]

So my assassin can put ranks in Craft (orphan).

[toapat]

why would a wizard, who spends all day studying, or a sorcerer who spends all day flirting, or a cleric, who spends all day praying, have spot and listen as class skills? 2 of those even have little animal friends to do the spot and listen for them, so they have double reason not to train in it.

because it really doesnt make sense that people with perfect vision have nonequivalent skill potential at observation.

[Taelas]

Where did you get the milk and eggs?

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m9p36cZLUb1qke7z9o1_500.gif

I.... I....

EXTERMINATE!

[RavynsLand]

characters in optimised games are 5ft cubes of relative flesh with items glued to them and have no personality.

other types of game play have people fluffed past "i am rationalising why i have cheesed my character".

http://www.ocalapost.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/shots-fired.jpg

[lunar2]

because it really doesnt make sense that people with perfect vision have nonequivalent skill potential at observation.

if you are training to read books and speak dead languages, that training doesn't normally include being observant of motion or background noise. sure, you could train yourself to do those things in your free time, as a hobby, but you don't have as much time to delegate to those tasks as you do towards what your actual job is.

similarly, i deliver pizzas in real life, typically large orders to schools where i have to carry nearly a hundred pounds of pizza a couple hundred feet while opening several sets of doors with my hands full (making 3 or more trips, at that). someone with the same height, build, and muscle condition could not just walk in and do my job, because they haven't had the time to practice those skills. they don't know tricks like wrapping the straps of the bags around your elbows and wrists to let them hang, letting your arms rest so you don't get tired. they don't know how get through all the doors carrying two bags of pizza, without setting them down to open the doors, or squishing them in the process.

so yes, even if you have the same physical capability as another person to do the job, you won't be able to do the job as effectively if you haven't spent the time practicing that job. and a wizard's job does not include spot and listen. it includes decipher script and speak language, because that is what the wizard spends his time doing.

[toapat]

if you are training to read books and speak dead languages, that training doesn't normally include being observant of motion or background noise. sure, you could train yourself to do those things in your free time, as a hobby, but you don't have as much time to delegate to those tasks as you do towards what your actual job is.

similarly, i deliver pizzas in real life, typically large orders to schools where i have to carry nearly a hundred pounds of pizza a couple hundred feet while opening several sets of doors with my hands full (making 3 or more trips, at that). someone with the same height, build, and muscle condition could not just walk in and do my job, because they haven't had the time to practice those skills. they don't know tricks like wrapping the straps of the bags around your elbows and wrists to let them hang, letting your arms rest so you don't get tired. they don't know how get through all the doors carrying two bags of pizza, without setting them down to open the doors, or squishing them in the process.

so yes, even if you have the same physical capability as another person to do the job, you won't be able to do the job as effectively if you haven't spent the time practicing that job. and a wizard's job does not include spot and listen. it includes decipher script and speak language, because that is what the wizard spends his time doing.

you are confusing Invested ranks with potential ranks.

Listen and Spot are based on genetic potential and practice. If a wizard has 20/20 vision and can only invest 2 ranks into spot at first level, Then the rogue's eyes would have biology above and beyond what a normal human has. By all known biological science and theory that rogue would have a transmissible genetic advantage. In DnD, Species are represented by the statblocks provided in the books, such as the template for a human. This means that the rogue is not genetically different from the wizard because the rogue is also Human, not Human (Telescoping vision)

Besides that, Training Spot/Listen is very, very easy, even IRL

[lunar2]

you are confusing Invested ranks with potential ranks.

Listen and Spot are based on genetic potential and practice. If a wizard has 20/20 vision and can only invest 2 ranks into spot at first level, Then the rogue's eyes would have biology above and beyond what a normal human has. By all known biological science and theory that rogue would have a transmissible genetic advantage. In DnD, Species are represented by the statblocks provided in the books, such as the template for a human. This means that the rogue is not genetically different from the wizard because the rogue is also Human, not Human (Telescoping vision)

Besides that, Training Spot/Listen is very, very easy, even IRL

no. a wizard with 20/20 vision can only invest 2 ranks because he doesn't have as much time to practice as a rogue. that's it. a wizard spends all their practice time on things that help them cast spells, while a rogue spends all their practice time on things that help them steal, or sneak, or find/disarm traps. rogues have higher max ranks because they practice more.

ranks have nothing to do with how good your vision is. racial bonuses/penalties and wisdom modifier are what determine how good your eyes are. ranks determine how good you are at using the vision you have. a first level human rogue and an elf wizard have the same spot modifier, because the elf has better eyes, but the rogue is more skilled at using their eyes, and it all balances out.

and maybe training yourself to be more observant is easier in the real world. but D&D isn't the real world, and in D&D, spot and listen are just two more skills, that use the same mechanics as every other skill. personal talent (wis mod) + physical senses (racial mod) + skill (ranks).

[TuggyNE]

Listen and Spot are based on genetic potential and practice. If a wizard has 20/20 vision and can only invest 2 ranks into spot at first level, Then the rogue's eyes would have biology above and beyond what a normal human has. By all known biological science and theory that rogue would have a transmissible genetic advantage. In DnD, Species are represented by the statblocks provided in the books, such as the template for a human. This means that the rogue is not genetically different from the wizard because the rogue is also Human, not Human (Telescoping vision)

What? No. Listen and Spot are Wis-based skills, not Con-based. As such, they are mental skills, not physical. Spotting someone is not (primarily) a matter of whether your eyes can see them, it's a matter of whether your eyes and brain can pick out the right shapes fast enough and reliably enough to correctly identify them.

The reason they can be cross-class skills is, essentially, that some classes do indeed spend considerably less time in the normal course of their duties and interests honing their situational awareness. Whether this is perfectly represented by a cap of half the usual, and whether the cross-class-Spot/Listen <-> classes-that-fit-this-pattern-logically mapping is entirely correct, are of course open questions, but the basic principle seems sound enough even if there are some glitches and over-abstractions in the implementation.

[toapat]

and maybe training yourself to be more observant is easier in the real world. but D&D isn't the real world, and in D&D, spot and listen are just two more skills, that use the same mechanics as every other skill. personal talent (wis mod) + physical senses (racial mod) + skill (ranks).

Your argument is that "This is the way the game says it is so its cosmic unarguable law".

the entire point is, the reality of the matter is that Spot/Listen are extremely easy to pick up. to the point where the logic that they are not class skills for anyone is stupid. I use a christmas tree in place of a table lamp (the previous ones are inoperable) and i can pick out individual lights at a distance at a glance.

but that is besides the point. Spot/Listen are genetic, honing them is a matter of passive experience as opposed to active training. THe very act of reading will improve spot and any number of spells can be used to create single repeating notes on sufficiently long timers as to make you able to distinguish incredibly low tones or out of place occurrences.


What? No. Listen and Spot are Wis-based skills, not Con-based. As such, they are mental skills, not physical. Spotting someone is not (primarily) a matter of whether your eyes can see them, it's a matter of whether your eyes and brain can pick out the right shapes fast enough and reliably enough to correctly identify them.

None of the skill system works in an ideal manner. But Spot/Listen are both equally tied to Wis (Identifying errant data), Int (analyzing for relevant information), and race. Humans hear really well. Elves hear better, but also ignores the fact that these are things that you can passively learn without actually putting effort into.

Under Most circumstances Class Skills at least have some reasonable justification. Ones tied to evolution? none at all. Even if the world is made by gods.

[Red Fel]

Listen and Spot are based on genetic potential and practice.

No, Listen and Spot are based on entries in the PHB which dictate the purely mechanical functions of these purely mechanical skills.

Certain classes have these skills, and certain classes do not. This can be rationalized due to a certain amount of, as others have suggested, the need to develop these skills in their chosen profession. But at the end of the day, that is rationalization. The RAW says that some classes have them, and some do not. Arguing instead that your eagle-eyed, pointy-eared Wizard should have them because he is an eagle-eyed, pointy-eared Elf is meaningless; it's an argument between you and the DM, and an argument the DM shouldn't let you win.

In an ideal world, yes, it would make sense for anyone who has "Adventurer" on his business cards to have Listen and Spot as class skills. But that's why, as Tuggy points out, people who don't have them as class skills will often invest the extra skill points to make up for that deficit. But that is a result of training (or, by RAW, investing skill points), not "genetic potential."


Besides that, Training Spot/Listen is very, very easy, even IRL

Tell that to Shawn Spencer.

In any event, practicing a lot of things is very, very easy, even in IRL. Practicing origami isn't that hard if you have both hands and all five fingers. Heck, Thri-Keen should get a racial bonus to it. Nonetheless, Craft (Origami) requires the investment of skill points. As does any skill, regardless of its ease in real life.

We're not playing "Real Life Skills: The Game." We're playing D&D, where anything with a potential mechanical impact has a potential mechanical cost.

Luckily for us, Craft (Origami) on everyone's class skill list. Even the Wizard's.


Your argument is that "This is the way the game says it is so its cosmic unarguable law".

Which is a fair argument, given that the RAW is, barring DM intervention, "cosmic unarguable law" within the game.


the entire point is, the reality of the matter is that Spot/Listen are extremely easy to pick up. to the point where the logic that they are not class skills for anyone is stupid. I use a christmas tree in place of a table lamp (the previous ones are inoperable) and i can pick out individual lights at a distance at a glance.

but that is besides the point. Spot/Listen are genetic, honing them is a matter of passive experience as opposed to active training. THe very act of reading will improve spot and any number of spells can be used to create single repeating notes on sufficiently long timers as to make you able to distinguish incredibly low tones or out of place occurrences.

Disagree. People who work at a job that involves reading excessive amounts of detail-oriented text over and over for hours can tell you, you're just as likely to get eye-tired and start to miss important things. It's why - since you insist on citing real life - many people who have to read large amounts of text end up needing corrective lenses from all the strain.

And stop stomping around, you're getting real life all over my nice clean sword-and-sorcery fantasy.

[toapat]

*snip*

Craft (Art) is not really a good comparison. Anyone can put a fold into a piece of paper. It becomes incredibly difficult to make things like oragami Hydralisk.

Letters in English are not engineered through the scientific method for accuracy of reading or ease of transcription. no insignificant portion of the letters on this page are composed a combination of a line, an arch, or a circle. We also tend use permutations of the symbols that are not, themselves, which are nice for their size on a page but not nice for their size relative to what a human is evolved to looking at. Besides that, how many times have you seen the paragraphs displaying outright that you dont read the letters or the exact order of a word, but only landmarks in their pattern to identify them?

[lunar2]

actually, origami is a good comparison. anyone can fold paper. anyone can see a car coming. it takes talent, skill, and a good degree of innate manual dexterity to create some of the most talented designs. it takes talent, skill, and good eyesight to pick out a brown mouse moving through dry grass. reading a book will never, ever, give you the necessary skill to spot a diminutive, camouflaged animal hiding 20 feet away. and yet there are actually people who can do that, and their eyes are no better than yours or mine. because ranks in spot have absolutely nothing to do with how well you see. it has to do with how well your brain interprets what you see, which is a mostly learned skill like any other.

[Coidzor]

What? No. Listen and Spot are Wis-based skills, not Con-based. As such, they are mental skills, not physical. Spotting someone is not (primarily) a matter of whether your eyes can see them, it's a matter of whether your eyes and brain can pick out the right shapes fast enough and reliably enough to correctly identify them.

The reason they can be cross-class skills is, essentially, that some classes do indeed spend considerably less time in the normal course of their duties and interests honing their situational awareness. Whether this is perfectly represented by a cap of half the usual, and whether the cross-class-Spot/Listen <-> classes-that-fit-this-pattern-logically mapping is entirely correct, are of course open questions, but the basic principle seems sound enough even if there are some glitches and over-abstractions in the implementation.

Which starts to fall apart and go back to the *glug glug glug* explanation when you hit certain classes and run into the whole expectations of the game and performance at the table, but there you go. XD

[Knaight]

if you are training to read books and speak dead languages, that training doesn't normally include being observant of motion or background noise. sure, you could train yourself to do those things in your free time, as a hobby, but you don't have as much time to delegate to those tasks as you do towards what your actual job is.
It doesn't typically include that, no. Hence, most characters of that sort simply wouldn't have ranks in that. On the other hand, if you have, say, a wizard who learned by studying tomes in a library they were forbidden from entering, avoiding everyone else in there all the while, they need to have a pretty solid spot and listen. It's hardly an uncommon archetype, and cross class limitations hardly help here.

It's the general case with cross class limitations, at least the more sensible ones - they make sense for most archetypes, but occasionally get weird. They also add one more thing to keep track of. Meanwhile, scrapping the mechanic and just not taking the skills where they don't make sense pretty much covers things.

[Rubik]

What I want to know is, what genius decided that the supposedly archetypal class for standing guard and training himself to be aware of his surroundings, as well as watching his opponents specifically (ie, fighter) didn't get a single skill useful in either paying attention to his surroundings or actually knowing who and what his foes are.

[137beth]

Guys, I think you are all missing a really obvious reason:
The commoner has Craft on its skill list to allow anyone to make Craft (Forum Thread) checks. Otherwise, most people wouldn't be able to post here. Then they decided that since commoners could do it, everyone else should be able to as well.
The only exceptions are the warrior, who is too busy exercising to be able to sit at a desk posting on internet forums, and the aristocrat, who is above such common trivialities.

[137beth]

What I want to know is, what genius decided that the supposedly archetypal class for standing guard and training himself to be aware of his surroundings, as well as watching his opponents specifically (ie, fighter) didn't get a single skill useful in either paying attention to his surroundings or actually knowing who and what his foes are.

Clearly the fighter skill list was written by a fighter, who had dumped Int and so didn't see a need for skills.

[pwykersotz]

Where did you get the milk and eggs?

No. No Warblade Daleks. Bad Deophaun.

Don't IHS the Doctor.

[Vogonjeltz]

What I want to know is, what genius decided that the supposedly archetypal class for standing guard and training himself to be aware of his surroundings, as well as watching his opponents specifically (ie, fighter) didn't get a single skill useful in either paying attention to his surroundings or actually knowing who and what his foes are.

Instead they get handle animal so their guard dogs (which do have spot and listen bonuses, and scent for auto detection anywhere from 30-180 feet, depending) can do the looking out.

That being said, spot and listen checks are there to oppose hide and move silently checks.

If you want to find someone hiding, get a ranger who knows about camouflage (hide) or a barbarian who's attuned to the sounds of nature (listen) to tell you when something in their environment is changing.

Any obvious change is obvious and doesn't require any skill points or a roll.

[The Oni]

Wait, if the Daleks were Warblades, couldn't they IHS the condition of being stuck in mobile firehydrants and get normal bodies again, thus not feeling the need to exterminate all sentient life?

[Elderand]

Wait, if the Daleks were Warblades, couldn't they IHS the condition of being stuck in mobile firehydrants and get normal bodies again, thus not feeling the need to exterminate all sentient life?

They are Daleks, just having the idea of doing that is ground enough for extermination by other Daleks.

[Gadora]

Instead they get handle animal so their guard dogs (which do have spot and listen bonuses, and scent for auto detection anywhere from 30-180 feet, depending) can do the looking out.

That being said, spot and listen checks are there to oppose hide and move silently checks.

If you want to find someone hiding, get a ranger who knows about camouflage (hide) or a barbarian who's attuned to the sounds of nature (listen) to tell you when something in their environment is changing.

Any obvious change is obvious and doesn't require any skill points or a roll.

So the guards outside the queen's throne room have to have dogs in order to do their jobs? Sentries patrol the edges of the army's camp, tugging on their leashes as they go? :smalltongue:

[Rubik]

Guys, I think you are all missing a really obvious reason:
The commoner has Craft on its skill list to allow anyone to make Craft (Forum Thread) checks. Otherwise, most people wouldn't be able to post here. Then they decided that since commoners could do it, everyone else should be able to as well.
The only exceptions are the warrior, who is too busy exercising to be able to sit at a desk posting on internet forums, and the aristocrat, who is above such common trivialities.I seriously doubt there's a single illiterate, ignorant, starving Dark Ages peasant on these threads. For one, we're all capable of reading, and most of us likely have at least some grade school under our belts.

Commoners only exist in the most impoverished of 3rd world countries. Nobody who has even completed kindergarten would be considered a commoner, and I don't get why people insist on treating everyone here as such.

It's kind of insulting, actually.

[animewatcha]

So truenamer can take craft ( Suck ).

Question how did part of this thread turn into another partial 'vs Toapat' thread?

[pwykersotz]

I seriously doubt there's a single illiterate, ignorant, starving Dark Ages peasant on these threads. For one, we're all capable of reading, and most of us likely have at least some grade school under our belts.

Commoners only exist in the most impoverished of 3rd world countries. Nobody who has even completed kindergarten would be considered a commoner, and I don't get why people insist on treating everyone here as such.

It's kind of insulting, actually.

The cultural identity of commoner changes with the time and place for most of us. Saying we're all commoners is just the way of relating to the unspecialized layman of yesteryear. But you're right, a lot of us are not commoners, a lot of us are probably experts. I'm sure most of us work or study in some field that utilizes a custom smattering of 10 class skills.

Remember, D&D assumes a much more advanced commoner than what you mention. They have average earnings that prevent starvation and they do not start out as illiterate.

[lunar2]

meh, in my settings, i don't even use commoner, warrior, or aristocrat. basic NPCs are either experts or adepts, depending on whether or not they can use magic.

[Trasilor]

'Cause I may be the best at what I do, Bub, and what I do ain't pretty, but my pa sculpted those little porcelain figurines of the kids with the creepy eyes, and his pa did before him, and so help me, I'm gonna go sculpt me some o' those little porcelain figurines of the kids with the creepy eyes. And it ain't gonna be pretty.


My wife has these creepy figurines (given as a gift from her parents as a child) which she hates...now I am tasked with selling them.

Now I know who to seek my wrath upon....:smallamused:

[137beth]

They are Daleks, just having the idea of doing that is ground enough for extermination by other Daleks.

And the Daleks who want to stay without bodies are affected by any attempts to get full bodies back by other Daleks, so the anti-body Daleks can just IHS away attempts by the pro-body Daleks!

[Knaight]

I seriously doubt there's a single illiterate, ignorant, starving Dark Ages peasant on these threads. For one, we're all capable of reading, and most of us likely have at least some grade school under our belts.

Putting aside how there were plenty of successful peasants who were far from starving, these people weren't stupid. They were ignorant about things commonly known today, and literary rates were much lower, but they still had skills. I'd be willing to bet that the vast majority of people on this forum are way worse at farming, caring for animals, recognizing useful plants, etc. than the typical medieval peasant.

[holywhippet]

I think the answer to this is fairly obvious. Since adventurer mortality rates can potentially be very high their companions need to be able to craft a coffin for them when their time is up. You do give your dead allies a proper burial, right?

[Deophaun]

I think the answer to this is fairly obvious. Since adventurer mortality rates can potentially be very high their companions need to be able to craft a coffin for them when their time is up. You do give your dead allies a proper burial, right?
Well, this one time we had an anthropomorphic cow. Best funeral/barbeque ever.

[dascarletm]

I seriously doubt there's a single illiterate, ignorant, starving Dark Ages peasant on these threads. For one, we're all capable of reading, and most of us likely have at least some grade school under our belts.

Commoners only exist in the most impoverished of 3rd world countries. Nobody who has even completed kindergarten would be considered a commoner, and I don't get why people insist on treating everyone here as such.

It's kind of insulting, actually.

Commoners are literate, can have as much int as any other NPC (assuming the same stat gen), and.... well... I suppose you got me on having an education system, but if you were to translate it to modern day... then... idk.

[Rubik]

Well, this one time we had an anthropomorphic cow. Best funeral/barbeque ever.I do believe that's called a ' minotaur.'

[Deophaun]

I do believe that's called a ' minotaur.'
Not when it has udders.

[Rubik]

Not when it has udders.That's udderly ludicrous. Unless male minotaurs spontaneously parthenogenesistate?

[Deophaun]

That's udderly ludicrous.
For that, you shall be pun ished.

Unless male minotaurs spontaneously parthenogenesistate?
The term "male" applied to "minotaur" is redundant, as "taur" means "bull." All minotaurs are males.

[toapat]

Question how did part of this thread turn into another partial 'vs Toapat' thread?

because of the idea that Spot/Listen are difficult to train/can not be passively trained/Have justification for not being permanent class skills.

Most skills at least take some measure of effort to learn and, at least from a conceptual standpoint make sense that you can only learn so much inbetween other training or lessons. certain skills it seems like pedantry that there is that much difference (Balance, Tumble, and Escape artist) while others do make alot of sense when you look at it (Open Lock vs Disable device, while inconvenient, at least makes sense because disabling clockwork is significantly different from manipulating tumblers. However i dont actually think people want those as separate skills).

What i cant justify is the L1 wizard having significantly lower potential to see things then the Rogue, despite both being the same race (say, human), because what determines the finite potential of your ability to perceive things is racial, not class based.

[lunar2]

because of the idea that Spot/Listen are difficult to train/can not be passively trained/Have justification for not being permanent class skills.

Most skills at least take some measure of effort to learn and, at least from a conceptual standpoint make sense that you can only learn so much inbetween other training or lessons. certain skills it seems like pedantry that there is that much difference (Balance, Tumble, and Escape artist) while others do make alot of sense when you look at it (Open Lock vs Disable device, while inconvenient, at least makes sense because disabling clockwork is significantly different from manipulating tumblers. However i dont actually think people want those as separate skills).

What i cant justify is the L1 wizard having significantly lower potential to see things then the Rogue, despite both being the same race (say, human), because what determines the finite potential of your ability to perceive things is racial, not class based.

the spot skill doesn't measure your ability to see at all. it measures your ability to notice what you see. 2 humans with different ranks in spot have the same vision, one of them just pays less attention to what their eyes are telling them. you actually notice less than 30% of what your eyes see. so having ranks in spot means you have trained yourself to notice more, not that you have trained yourself to see better.

[toapat]

the spot skill doesn't measure your ability to see at all. it measures your ability to notice what you see. 2 humans with different ranks in spot have the same vision, one of them just pays less attention to what their eyes are telling them. you actually notice less than 30% of what your eyes see. so having ranks in spot means you have trained yourself to notice more, not that you have trained yourself to see better.

I am arguing about Potential skill ranks. Which you are so kindly ignoring the damn point.

A Wizard, who is a human Being, who is by the game rules is completely identical to a human rogue, has at first level, at absolute best, 10% worse vision then the rogue. This is an absolute fact in the rules. In reality, People dont see identically well. In fantasy where genetic variation is a houserule, its an absurdity

[Red Fel]

I am arguing about Potential skill ranks. Which you are so kindly ignoring the damn point.

Language. Just because someone disagrees with you does not mean you get to swear at them.


A Wizard, who is a human Being, who is by the game rules is completely identical to a human rogue, has at first level, at absolute best, 10% worse vision then the rogue. This is an absolute fact in the rules. In reality, People dont see identically well. In fantasy where genetic variation is a houserule, its an absurdity

Actually, Lunar is right. You're comparing vision quality - the difference between, say, astigmatism and 20/20 vision. But skills like Spot and Listen aren't just based on what you see, but what you notice. Noticing things is not innate to most people. For example, do you go to the movie theater? You know how some theaters have stairs leading to higher seats? There are some people who, for safety purposes, memorize how many steps there are, so that, in case of an emergency, they know how many steps to descend in the dark. There are others who don't. Even assuming they have the same visual "potential," and both likely saw the steps, one was specifically trained to notice what he saw.

Two woodsmen out camping. Identical quality hearing. No listening enhancement devices used or needed. But one has spent months at a time in the wild, the other just camps for a weekend or two out of the year. Both hear the same sounds. Only one recognizes the subtle changes in animal noise that indicate the presence of a predator. That's because he has practice Listening.

Again, it has nothing to do with potential or racial propensity, and everything to do with training yourself to notice. A person who has spent hours looking at books, studying texts or what-have-you, has been looking at the obvious. The letters are there; you simply read them. He's not practicing noticing something, just seeing what's obvious.

The Rogue lives in the shadows. He needs to know the significance of every movement, lest he find his own pockets picked - or worse. The Ranger lives in the untamed wilderness, and needs to be aware, lest the hunter become the hunted. The Wizard sees and hears just as well as they do, but unless he has practice, he does not always understand the significance of what he sees and hears. Grasping the significance, being able to process the nuances, that is not an inherent trait; it is learned, trained, practiced.

Even a Rogue who has astigmatism may still have a better Spot check (after penalty), if he has trained himself to interpret what he can see. Even a Ranger who's deaf in one ear may have a better Listen check, because he can process what his good ear picks up. It's not baseline ability, it's comprehension.

[toapat]

It's not baseline ability, it's comprehension.

In theory, No two people due to an extremely complex number of factors can have the exact same potential to observe an event (They can have Scientifically unremarkable deviation though).

DnD does not simulate physical and psychological diversity to such a hairline difference of extent. the difference in capacity to observe between the most prodigal and most incapable members of human beings is 40-70%. if we consider skillfocus, traits, and exotic subraces

the Traits Nearsighted/Farsighted do actually link clarity of vision to the spot skill (assuming Elf didnt do that already).

Assuming ALL other factors are identical, Wizard by RAW ruins your vision.

[dascarletm]

In theory, No two people due to an extremely complex number of factors can have the exact same potential to observe an event (They can have Scientifically unremarkable deviation though).

DnD does not simulate physical and psychological diversity to such a hairline difference of extent. the difference in capacity to observe between the most prodigal and most incapable members of human beings is 40-70%. if we consider skillfocus, traits, and exotic subraces

the Traits Nearsighted/Farsighted do actually link clarity of vision to the spot skill (assuming Elf didnt do that already).

Assuming ALL other factors are identical, Wizard by RAW ruins your vision.

It's wisdom based


Wisdom represents being in tune with and aware of one’s surroundings. An “absentminded professor” has low Wisdom and high Intelligence.

So it's based off both.

Ranks in particular...

Ranks indicate how much training or experience your character has with a given skill.

When someone is attempting to master the arcane arts, he/she doesn't get much training or experience in noticing one's surroundings.

[lunar2]

In theory, No two people due to an extremely complex number of factors can have the exact same potential to observe an event (They can have Scientifically unremarkable deviation though).

DnD does not simulate physical and psychological diversity to such a hairline difference of extent. the difference in capacity to observe between the most prodigal and most incapable members of human beings is 40-70%. if we consider skillfocus, traits, and exotic subraces

the Traits Nearsighted/Farsighted do actually link clarity of vision to the spot skill (assuming Elf didnt do that already).

Assuming ALL other factors are identical, Wizard by RAW ruins your vision.

the spot skill is a combination of many things. there is visual acuity (racial bonus to spot, flaws), baseline perceptiveness (wisdom modifier), and actual skills of observation (ranks).

ranks do not represent anything to do with your eyes. racial bonuses and flaws represent your eyes. ranks represent your brain. it doesn't matter what skill you are talking about, ranks represent your knowledge and experience for doing the task at hand. they do no represent physical or mental talent, or abnormal physiology. a 20th level rogue with 23 ranks in spot has exactly the same visual acuity as a first level wizard of the same race with no ranks in spot. the difference is entirely one of skill. that's why they are called skill ranks, and not "visual acuity" ranks. because they represent how skilled you are at completing the task. it is literally right there in the name.

[toapat]

When someone is attempting to master the arcane arts, he/she doesn't get much training or experience in noticing one's surroundings.

and yet they can master the intricate and unrelated craft (Carpentry) skill without any such limitations.


ranks do not represent anything to do with your eyes. racial bonuses and flaws represent your eyes. ranks represent your brain. it doesn't matter what skill you are talking about, ranks represent your knowledge and experience for doing the task at hand. they do no represent physical or mental talent, or abnormal physiology. a 20th level rogue with 23 ranks in spot has exactly the same visual acuity as a first level wizard of the same race with no ranks in spot. the difference is entirely one of skill. that's why they are called skill ranks, and not "visual acuity" ranks. because they represent how skilled you are at completing the task. it is literally right there in the name.

Ranks represent a 5% improvement in your ability to perform a task. 1 Skill point represents a finite amount of practice at or comprehension of the skill in question which may be invested for a finite benefit.

The problem is you are Equating Known ranks to Potential Ranks. All things being equal, The Wizard has **** vision because the Devs said they do. Because they do. But All things being equal the Wizard has half clarity of vision because it takes twice the effort to improve the skill

[lunar2]

and yet they can master the intricate and unrelated craft (Carpentry) skill without any such limitations.

everybody's gotta have a day job. craft makes money, spot doesn't.

[dascarletm]

and yet they can master the intricate and unrelated craft (Carpentry) skill without any such limitations.

I never said it was how it should be, I merely was refuting your point.

(Also wizards would totes have craft carpentry. Staves helo!)

[toapat]

(Also wizards would totes have craft carpentry. Staves helo!)

Thats craft Weaponsmithing, not Carpentry.

I wanted to make sure i was using a skill that cant be used for penning a spellbook AND is not Alchemy. (Hint, All of them are relevent to authoring spellbooks other then MAYBE cobbling, Shipmaking, and Trapmaking)

[dascarletm]

Thats craft Weaponsmithing, not Carpentry.

I wanted to make sure i was using a skill that cant be used for penning a spellbook AND is not Alchemy. (Hint, All of them are relevent to authoring spellbooks other then MAYBE cobbling, Shipmaking, and Trapmaking)

Bookshelves.

Bookcases.

[toapat]

Bookshelves.

Bookcases.

Wooden Tablets engraved with magical text bound together in a tome. (the skill is Carpentry, not architectural engineering (lumber))

Weapons engraved with spellverses

gears and components of clocks, locks, and traps.

Armor.

textiles.

Craft (Poison) is the only one which actually doesnt let you make something to use as a spellbook

[Gadora]

Thats craft Weaponsmithing, not Carpentry.

I wanted to make sure i was using a skill that cant be used for penning a spellbook AND is not Alchemy. (Hint, All of them are relevent to authoring spellbooks other then MAYBE cobbling, Shipmaking, and Trapmaking)

I'd say craft makes sense for wizards and other crafters given that it's often a prerequisite for golem creation. Nitpicking a bit, I'd be surprised if there wasn't some sort of construct out there that called for a carpentry check to craft the body.

[toapat]

I'd say craft makes sense for wizards and other crafters given that it's often a prerequisite for golem creation. Nitpicking a bit, I'd be surprised if there wasn't some sort of construct out there that called for a carpentry check to craft the body.

Warforged do (or should, they are primarily built from wood, not metal)

The idea was something that is a craft skill and doesnt provide a workable material for a wizard as a spellbook or is alchemy.

[pwykersotz]

Toapat, it seems that you advocate a skill system where everyone is like the Expert, able to choose a number of skills that they want to focus on as class skills. Or are you advocating that there should be no class/cross class?

[Seerow]

Wooden Tablets engraved with magical text bound together in a tome. (the skill is Carpentry, not architectural engineering (lumber))

Weapons engraved with spellverses

gears and components of clocks, locks, and traps.

Armor.

textiles.

Craft (Poison) is the only one which actually doesnt let you make something to use as a spellbook

You're just not trying hard enough. My Wizard laces all of his spellbook ink with a contact poison he has built a resistance to over the course of the last 10 years. The spellbook is perfectly safe to him, but anybody else opening it risks a very painful death.

[Rubik]

You're just not trying hard enough. My Wizard laces all of his spellbook ink with a contact poison he has built a resistance to over the course of the last 10 years. The spellbook is perfectly safe to him, but anybody else opening it risks a very painful death.It's the Third Floor Corridor of spellbooks.

[Seerow]

It's the Third Floor Corridor of spellbooks.

I was going for more Princess Bride and less Harry Potter, but that works.

[toapat]

Toapat, it seems that you advocate a skill system where everyone is like the Expert, able to choose a number of skills that they want to focus on as class skills. Or are you advocating that there should be no class/cross class?

My oppinions boil down to this:

Skills need consolidation into conceptually similar if not wholly related skills (Ex: Open Lock/Disable Device, Jump/Climb/Swim, Handle Animal/Ride, Disguise/Forgery)

Cross class skills may be highly useful, but in their current implementation are just a hindrance. the PF version is also bad, as it doesnt implement a sufficient penalty, and the result is that there is no point to playing rogues in it.
certain skills should be racial skills. Namely Climb, Swim, Spot, and Listen. Racial skills would always be class skills.


You're just not trying hard enough. My Wizard laces all of his spellbook ink with a contact poison he has built a resistance to over the course of the last 10 years. The spellbook is perfectly safe to him, but anybody else opening it risks a very painful death.

actually, Poisonmaking still falls under Alchemy, so thats out the window. I think Shipmaking and Locksmithing are the closest to Non-relevant, and they still provide canvases. I dont think anyone would consider a wizard who drags a whole galleon around as his spellbook particularly sane but it would be impressive.


I was going for more Princess Bride and less Harry Potter, but that works.

well i got the reference to the Iocane powder scene immediately

[Coidzor]

^: Hmm? Last I checked it was Craft(Poisonmaking) & you did crafting via gold pieces instead of silver pieces. & I think needed 1/6th the raw material instead of 1/3.


Toapat, it seems that you advocate a skill system where everyone is like the Expert, able to choose a number of skills that they want to focus on as class skills. Or are you advocating that there should be no class/cross class?

I lost track when people started pretending that there were classes for whom it wouldn't make sense for them to have Spot and Listen as class skills. And that this is why they think those skills were left of their list. To which I say "Fighter." and to which was facetiously said "Guard Dogs + Handle Animal!"

So now I'm just imagining 90% of the text here as blue. XD

[toapat]

^: Hmm? Last I checked it was Craft(Poisonmaking) & you did crafting via gold pieces instead of silver pieces. & I think needed 1/6th the raw material instead of 1/3.

while Alchemy checks and poisonmaking checks dont correlate to eachother in game, they both are taking plants, minerals, and obscure substances and combining them together to do certain things. conceptually theres enough overlap that you can justify a wizard having ranks in it.

Im definitely going with Shipbuilding though, the idea of Seeing a decrepit old man dragging a Drakkar over land just is too amusing of an idea.

[animewatcha]

Took a skim through the thread ( sorry a bit late for me right now ). Everything is racial/genetic versus trained?

Nice to know you can get better hearing via having a blind parent versus non-blind?!?!?!?

Is this what the arguing is amounting to?

[squiggit]

while Alchemy checks and poisonmaking checks dont correlate to eachother in game, they both are taking plants, minerals, and obscure substances and combining them together to do certain things. conceptually theres enough overlap that you can justify a wizard having ranks in it.

Would you trust an alchemist or cook who was also a poisoncrafter?... Or hell, all three together?

[toapat]

Would you trust an alchemist or cook who was also a poisoncrafter?... Or hell, all three together?

I wouldnt really trust the alchemist as it is

[Rubik]

I wouldnt really trust the alchemist as it is

http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2012/125/a/c/acae7450dedf4d2426ee88c60cc255c0-d3ihua7.png
Who wouldn't trust a face like that?

[Alex12]

Not gonna lie, my mental image of a bespectacled wizard is way clearer than my mental image of a bespectacled Rogue or Ranger.
It's reading all those arcane tomes of eldritch knowledge, you know. Ruins the eyes.

[dascarletm]

^: Hmm? Last I checked it was Craft(Poisonmaking) & you did crafting via gold pieces instead of silver pieces. & I think needed 1/6th the raw material instead of 1/3.



I lost track when people started pretending that there were classes for whom it wouldn't make sense for them to have Spot and Listen as class skills. And that this is why they think those skills were left of their list. To which I say "Fighter." and to which was facetiously said "Guard Dogs + Handle Animal!"

So now I'm just imagining 90% of the text here as blue. XD

I don't think anyone seriously is arguing that fighters shouldn't get spot/listen

[Rubik]

Not gonna lie, my mental image of a bespectacled wizard is way clearer than my mental image of a bespectacled Rogue or Ranger.
It's reading all those arcane tomes of eldritch knowledge, you know. Ruins the eyes.Actually, high intelligence is correlated with bad eyesight. (https://www.google.com/search?q=eyesight+and+intelligent&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&channel=sb#channel=sb&q=eyesight+and+intelligence&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&spell=1) It has nothing to do with reading.

[Alex12]

Actually, high intelligence is correlated with bad eyesight. (https://www.google.com/search?q=eyesight+and+intelligent&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&channel=sb#channel=sb&q=eyesight+and+intelligence&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&spell=1) It has nothing to do with reading.

Huh. That's interesting. I did not know that.
Kinda supports the basic point, though. Wizards are some of the smartest people around, along with Artificers, Archivists, and Psions, and none of those classes get Spot or Listen as class skills (Well, Seers get Spot, but that's thematically appropriate).

[Rubik]

Huh. That's interesting. I did not know that.
Kinda supports the basic point, though. Wizards are some of the smartest people around, along with Artificers, Archivists, and Psions, and none of those classes get Spot or Listen as class skills (Well, Seers get Spot, but that's thematically appropriate).How is it appropriate that the quintessential blind seer gains Spot as a class skill?

Also, not every intelligent person has bad eyesight. I'm no slouch, and mine registers as 20/20.

[Alex12]

How is it appropriate that the quintessential blind seer gains Spot as a class skill?
Not the blind seers- that's Diviners and arcane magic, not Seers and psions.
Seers are the ones actually working on perception abilities because they're using them through invisible sensors and things.
Diviners ought to get it as a class skill too, really.


Also, not every intelligent person has bad eyesight. I'm no slouch, and mine registers as 20/20.
*insert joke about how you must not be as smart as you think you are*
More seriously, a trend is not a law.

[toapat]

*insert joke about how you must not be as smart as you think you are*
More seriously, a trend is not a law.

the trend is more likely a result of multiple factors. eye strain from reading is likely an accurate cause.

However, i personally choose to believe that the transcription of Draconic which is used in a wizard's spelltome is specifically designed for ease and accuracy of reading, as opposed to real world characters which evolved. Not because i want to idealize wizards, but because i prefer the idea that if you read and pronounced Prismatic Spray as Prismatic Spay, it would have significantly different results.

[lunar2]

Prismatic Spay

Ouch. Thanks for that image. i'm now imagining my dog with petrified hindquarters on another plane.

[Peelee]

Also, not every intelligent person has bad eyesight. I'm no slouch, and mine registers as 20/20.

One of the first rules in D&D, and life in general: Specific beats general.

Intelligent people tend have poor eyesight. Rubik is intelligent and does not have poor eyesight. General < specific.


the trend is more likely a result of multiple factors. eye strain from reading is likely an accurate cause.

However, i personally choose to believe that the transcription of Draconic which is used in a wizard's spelltome is specifically designed for ease and accuracy of reading, as opposed to real world characters which evolved. Not because i want to idealize wizards, but because i prefer the idea that if you read and pronounced Prismatic Spray as Prismatic Spay, it would have significantly different results.

One of my favorite homebrewed magic items i totally stole off someone on the internet was a Book of Misspellings. It was a magical book on the arcane arts, riddled with rampant misspellings. Same rules as any other magical Tome applied, except at the end of each 8 hour read, the mage would have a headache. When the book was completely read, the DM (me, in this case) could alter any spell the mage cast by either removing, adding, or replacing a single letter in the spell, which would affect the spell as read, and subject to DM interpretation. For instance, Sleep could be replaced as Sheep, which would either polymorph the target or caster into a sheep, or sling a sheep as a magic missile, or the like. Whether a letter was added, removed, or replaced, only a single change would be allowed. The DM is encouraged to completely abuse this power.

The reason a mage would willingly subject himself to this treatment? After a week of being subjected to the DM's whim, the mage gets accustomed to the power and can control it. 3 times per day, he can alter any spell he wishes within the above limitations.

My favorite was a friend who converted Fireball to Direball, but Prismatic Spay would be a very entertaining use. Only made a couple of appearances, but that book was subject of a lot of out-of-game discussion on potential uses.