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Duskwither
2007-02-14, 04:02 AM
Hello there, long time lurker, (Since before The_Logic_Ninja, sadly :smallsmile: ) new joiner.

Now, as you can see from the title, vampires and their mechanics would be the name of the game. Mostly: That terrible Level Adjustment that causes pretty much every class to shudder.

I don't often DM, as I prefer to be a player, but when I do, I instate quite a bit of houserules that tend to work out wonderfully, but mostly because nobody in my group, aside from myself, powergames very much at all (in fact, all but one is pretty much afraid to play a caster of any kind). So, with how I rule things, I suppose they could be abusable (if I let it happen) but that's never a problem.

The problem is that, although it comes rarely, someone may want to play a vampire. Now, we love anime, but we utterly LOATHE how it tends to portray vampires, so that sort of urking flavor has never had a presence in our games, fortunately. However, we have had problems with playing them, mostly because you can't even start out a low-level game playing as one.

Now, I'm unsure of how everyone else handles anyone in their games wishing to play a vampire, but something I usually do is drop the Children of the Night, and Create Spawn (unless desired for some sort of scene/plot, then they can have it just once) abilities, then force 5 Undead HD with no LA.

My question is: Does that seem reasonable at all?

One thing I've always hated with that massive Level Adjustement was getting NOTHING in terms of saves, HP, and skills.

So, please, share some experiences with Vampire characters, and critique my method, if you will.

Bosh
2007-02-14, 04:33 AM
Do something along the lines of this: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031010a

and string out the bonuses across 8 levels of "vampire"

kamikasei
2007-02-14, 04:40 AM
Do something along the lines of this: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031010a

and string out the bonuses across 8 levels of "vampire"

Actually, that article series has covered all the templates in the Monster Manual, including Vampires in the first installment (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a).

Brigham
2007-02-14, 04:44 AM
Ok, I earlier posted and then deleted my post, because I was unsure of its veracity. However, I originally suggested that you look at Libris Mortis and use its vampire class advancement instead of the vampire template.

I remembered something weird about it though, and looked it up. Even though you would take vampire as a class it still says that you have to take the +8 LA. This doesn't seem correct. Can someone clarify?

clockwork warrior
2007-02-14, 06:15 AM
Ok, I earlier posted and then deleted my post, because I was unsure of its veracity. However, I originally suggested that you look at Libris Mortis and use its vampire class advancement instead of the vampire template.

I remembered something weird about it though, and looked it up. Even though you would take vampire as a class it still says that you have to take the +8 LA. This doesn't seem correct. Can someone clarify?libris mortis only lets you take levels in vampire spawn. you get most of the vampire abilities, but not all of them. i think that you could add a few levels to vampire spawn to make them into vampires without to much trouble, i thing you just up fast healing and dr, and let them creates spawn

Quietus
2007-02-14, 06:22 AM
I think the two biggest problems with being a PC vampire is A) Very, ridiculously difficult to kill, when they could just go back to their coffins. Of course, anything with daylight is practically instagib. And B) The spawn ability. That can get out of hand very quickly.

I imagine just cutting off the spawn ability would drop the EL significantly... particularly when you consider the difference between a Lich and a Vampire. Liches are just as hard to kill, if not moreso, and yet they only have LA4.

ChrisMcDee
2007-02-14, 07:08 AM
I always think it mustn't be a great deal of fun to actually play a Vampire unless it's in a really low-powered world. Lots of your time must be spent running away from things that are able to exploit your weakness.

PinkysBrain
2007-02-14, 11:04 AM
Vampires have to be played in two completely different ways depending on whether it is a PC or a NPC. If it's a NPC it can be a bad ass who also has a menagerie of followers ... if it's a PC it can be a weakling which has his menagerie of followers do the fighting for him.

Ramza00
2007-02-14, 11:30 AM
Are you familiar with the Half Vampire template from Libris Mortis? Only a +2 LA and gets a good portion of the vampire abilities. You aren't "undead though"

Playing a Necropolitian Half Vampire would fix this while maintaining the vampire flavor.

If you find a Necropolitian Half Vampire not powerful enough mechanically from an "undead standpoint" (want power to come from the templates and not class levels) then you can add the evolved undead template onto it. (Also from libris mortis)
--------------------------------------------------------

Or you can do a Cleric/Archivist/Favored Soul who goes into the Walker of the Waste prc, and prior to lvl 10 of the walker of the waste you take the Half Vampire template.

A Cleric 3 or Archvist 3/Walker of the Waste 10 with the Half Vampire Template is ECL of 15. (Casts as a 11th lvl cleric/archivist)
or you can even buy those 2 lvls back with the UA rules, and get the awesome Dry Lich Template at lvl 13 (LA buy backs are at lvls 6 and 9)

Were-Sandwich
2007-02-14, 12:10 PM
Am I the only one who thinks the Evolved Undead template is really undrpriced for its LA? And Spellstitched? Slap that on your necropolitan True Necro and laugh.

Duskwither
2007-02-15, 12:18 AM
Wow, thank you all for your helpful posts!

I should say this now, however... I wanted to make playing a vampire mechanically viable for a few of my players. I'm mostly expecting a "Oooh, look, house-ruled vampire... Oh well, now where'd I put my bard?", but if one of them actually chose to play as one, it -could- be fun depending on their creativity and my cruelty.

I really like Ramza's idea, but nearly all of my players run in fear of magic, and never have an interest in playing any sort of caster. This causes problems in pretty much all of the games I DM, because they're usually arcane caster-less. It's a good thing one of my players enjoys healing, so the Cleric isn't usually problematic.

I've had the pleasure of perusing through the Libris Mortis a few times, and while I currently don't own it, I would certainly like to. I just may have to go with that Vampire Spawn class, and perhaps use that Half-Vampire template that has been suggested. I also liked the fluff of that Evolved Undead template.

One thing though... Necropolitian?

The_Snark
2007-02-15, 12:30 AM
Some sort of undead created through ritual; you have to give up a level to get it, but it doesn't come with any level adjustment, I believe, which makes it the undead of choice for PCs.

And vampire/vampire spawn classes aren't classes in the normal sense; they involve taking the abilities, HD, and LA of the vampire (or vampire spawn) and gaining them over the course of several levels according to the progression. Unlike normal classes, you don't get HD at every level, but levels without HD have other benefits in the form of special immunities. By the end, you've got the full capabilities of the monster/template in question, and the full level adjustment has built up too.

Duskwither
2007-02-15, 12:37 AM
Oh, yeah, The_Snark, I know this. It's the reason I dislike that drawn out Vampire progression. Eight levels of absolutely no HD. It's painful in the ways of saves and HP and even feat/ability progression. I like the Vampire Spawn a bit more, while although toned down in the power sense in comparison to the Vampire, it has a few HD and a lower LA.

The_Snark
2007-02-15, 12:40 AM
It is painful. In general, I think the vampire template could be toned down pretty easily; even counting that it's a powerful template, the LA is crippling. Remove Create Spawn for certain, possibly the dominating gaze; certainly either the dominating gaze or shapeshifting. If you take out Create Spawn, Dominating Gaze, and Energy Drain, that could be enough to knock it down to +4 LA. There's still the sunlight problem, but I think there are ways to get around that.

Ramza00
2007-02-15, 12:52 AM
Necropolitian page 114 of Libris Mortis. Effectively its a ritual where you lose 1 lvl+1000xp+3000gp, (but no LA), and become undead. The ritual is pretty much nailing someone to a cross for 24 hours, and then on there death throes impaling them. Unlike some myths (*wink*), after the ritual you are kinda less "fleshy" and more undead in appearance (and now possess the undead type) Gain no real benefits besides the undead type (and thus d12 hps) besides a small bonus to saves against control undead and a small bonus against turn/rebuke undead.

Here is an image of a necropolitan after the ritual.
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/libris_gallery/84763.jpg
.

Duskwither
2007-02-15, 12:53 AM
Yeah, I like the feel of that. While I would be hesitant to be rid of Dominating Gaze, I've seen how I've easily used Dominate Person as a wizard and owned everything. And let's not count the Balor who rolled a 1 on his Will Save vs Dominate Monster. So, the only reason I wouldn't want to be rid of it, for my personal use for my players, is that I would like to give them that small taste of a spell. I could live with doing away with the Shapeshifting. I mean, Gaseous Form will do for that.

The Create Spawn would have to go. Giving that to a player.... "Oh, hey, can I take that Master Vampire prestige class?" Just no. As much as I like the Energy Drain, that's pretty powerful, especially early on when things don't have very many HD. Yeah, that sounds good to me. In exchange, I might give them the Endure Sunlight feat as a bonus.

Duskwither
2007-02-15, 12:55 AM
Necropolitian page 114 of Libris Mortis. Effectively its a ritual where you lose 1 lvl+1000xp+3000gp, (but no LA), and become undead. The ritual is pretty much nailing someone to a cross for 24 hours, and then on there death throes impaling them. Unlike some myths (*wink*), after the ritual you are kinda less "fleshy" and more undead in appearance (and now possess the undead type) Gain no real benefits besides the undead type (and thus d12 hps) besides a small bonus to saves against control undead and a small bonus against turn/rebuke undead.

Here is an image of a necropolitan after the ritual.
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/libris_gallery/84763.jpg
.

Oh. Interesting. I really need to get my hands on that book.

Edit: Double posts are cool.

The_Snark
2007-02-15, 12:57 AM
Sounds fair enough. If you want to keep the dominating gaze, you could consider limiting uses to 3/day or something, to keep players from having an army of dominated servitors at all times (Dominate being a day/level spell).

Duskwither
2007-02-15, 12:59 AM
Also a good idea. I'll have to do that. Thanks for all of your input.

The Prince of Cats
2007-02-15, 07:41 AM
I once worked on rules for a dhampir, though it was a) second-edition and b) an NPC in a very low-magic world.

It was the equivalent of an LA +0 template, since I incorporated a number of flaws from folklore, but lacked a few of the game-breaking flaws and benefits of a vampire. He was sickly, creepy and sunlight was, while not deadly, very uncomfortable for him. He was actually killed in the course of the story; stabbed through the heart with his own ironwood rapier hard enough to pin him to a door.

Of course, the suggestion only works for starting-level characters, since you would probably not wake up one day and become the child of a vampire and a mortal woman. I would assume that the half-vampire template is similar in some ways, though (knowing WotC) a little over-powered.