Hidden Sneak attack with skirmish?

[Oddman80]

Let’s say I have a level 6 Dark Whisper Gnome Swift Ambusher (Scout 3/ Rogue 3), with two flaws, and a base Dex ability score of 18. He would have either the Shot on the Run Feat chain, as well as the Swift Ambusher Feat. He would have a land speed of 50’ (30’ base., +10’ Dark Creature, +10’ Scout 3), the Hide in Plain Sight (Su) ability, a +29 to Hide (+4 Dex +8 Dark, +4 Racial, +4 Small, +9 Ranks), a +23 to move silently (+4 Dex +6 Dark, +4 Racial, +9 Ranks) a +2d6/+1AC Skirmish, and a +2d6 Sneak Attack.

If, prior to the start of my turn I am successfully hidden, when my turn begins, is the following possible to do:

Move 10 feet at half speed (no penalty to hide check) to a location up to 30 feet away from target, make a ranged attack against the target, continue to move at half speed another 15 feet away from where my attack was made, and hide at the new location.

Since, at no point would I have broken my hidden status prior to the attack, the attack should yield both Sneak Attack & Skirmish damage. Additionally, given that according to the sniping rules of the hide skill:


If you’ve already successfully hidden at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack, then immediately hide again. You take a -20 penalty on your Hide check to conceal yourself after the shot.

This seems to imply that the -20 penalty to hide would only be applicable if you are immediately hiding in place right after the ranged attack. This would make sense as when the target gets hit they would look to the direction from which the shot came. However, if you are no longer there, but 15 feet away from that location, you shouldn’t get a -20 to your hide. So long as the target is not immune to Sneak Attack or Skirmish damage, would this be a viable playing style?

At Level 20, (assuming I had the following feats: Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Craven , Martial Study - Assassin Stance), with a +1 Splitting Bow and a Rogue’s Vest, if every attack in a round hit, I would get 8x (9d6 SA + 5d6 Skirmish + 2d6 Assassin Stance +1d6 Rogues Vest +20 Craven) = 128d6+160

I get that if I come up against a construct/plant/undead/ooze and what not, then this is all useless, and that my Hide in Plain Sight ability is limited to places not in broad daylight… I just want to know if you think the logic for the mobile hiding mechanic works – keeping my character virtually invisible at all times during an encounter.

Thanks

[Curmudgeon]

You're missing a couple of things involving the Hide skill. First is that you don't just remain hidden when you move; you have to make a new Hide check to Move between Cover (see Complete Adventurer on pages 101-102). That's doable if you have at least 10 ranks in Hide (so minimum level 7 rather than 6), and you'll then qualify for both sneak attack and skirmish bonus damage. The next one is rather important: you become glaringly apparent when you attack. The consequence of that is you probably won't satisfy the "not being observed" condition needed to Hide again at the end of your movement. You could get there if you moved behind something to completely block line of sight to any observers on your way to a location which offers ordinary cover/concealment, but that seems unlikely.

Generally some form of Hide in Plain Sight is what's necessary to be able to satisfy the conditions required before you're allowed to make a Hide check.

[Seffbasilisk]

You're still being observed due to sniping them, so you'd keep the -20. If you're willing to be visible for a brief flash, you can re-hide at the end of your motion by ducking behind something that breaks LoS.

There's an ACF called Penetrating Strike you can trade Trapsense for. It will allow you half Sneak attack against things normally immune to your sneak attack.

[John Longarrow]

However, if you are no longer there, but 15 feet away from that location, you shouldn’t get a -20 to your hide. So long as the target is not immune to Sneak Attack or Skirmish damage, would this be a viable playing style?


You take the -20. Also double check what the penalty is for moving while hiding. IIRC its a -5 for each 5' moved.

[Red Fel]

Generally some form of Hide in Plain Sight is what's necessary to be able to satisfy the conditions required before you're allowed to make a Hide check.

Actually, the Dark template gives him HiPS, so he's safe on that one.

That said, it looks good to me. Using HiPS, assuming you beat your opponent's Spot check, you're hidden and can make a Sneak Attack. Sneak Attack stacks with Skirmish, so using both allows you to enjoy both.

As an additional aside, if you took a level of Ranger, picked Favored Enemy (something immune to crits), and took Swift Hunter, your Skirmish damage would apply to your favored enemies (even thought they would ordinarily be immune).

[Curmudgeon]

Actually, the Dark template gives him HiPS, so he's safe on that one.

That said, it looks good to me. Using HiPS, assuming you beat your opponent's Spot check, you're hidden and can make a Sneak Attack.
Almost. You still need cover/concealment to be allowed to Hide. The Hide in Plain Sight from Tome of Magic's Dark Creature template doesn't do anything about that requirement. (Out of all the various forms of HiPS that one's the weakest. Not only doesn't it bypass cover/concealment, it also just fails in daylight; it's only half reliable.) A Deeper Darkness spell would get you there, though that would be an obvious magical source of concealment and a prime target for countering or dispelling.

[Oddman80]

You're missing a couple of things involving the Hide skill. First is that you don't just remain hidden when you move; you have to make a new Hide check to Move between Cover (see Complete Adventurer on pages 101-102). That's doable if you have at least 10 ranks in Hide (so minimum level 7 rather than 6), and you'll then qualify for both sneak attack and skirmish bonus damage. The next one is rather important: you become glaringly apparent when you attack. The consequence of that is you probably won't satisfy the "not being observed" condition needed to Hide again at the end of your movement. You could get there if you moved behind something to completely block line of sight to any observers on your way to a location which offers ordinary cover/concealment, but that seems unlikely.

Generally some form of Hide in Plain Sight is what's necessary to be able to satisfy the conditions required before you're allowed to make a Hide check.

Sorry for the confusion - the dark template grants me Hide in Plain Sight (su). I only started out the hypothetical at level 6 as it was the first level at which i could pick up the Swift Ambusher feat allowing for the combined sneak attack/skirmish progression.

So I don't need concealment. to be hidden.

Also, my understanding is that hidden isn't like invisibility. With invisibility (i.e., not greater invisibility) you become visible when you attack. With hidden, the target needs to make a spot check against your hide check. I do not automatically become "glaringly apparent" when I attack.

I guess this comes down to - When can a foe make an opposed spot check?

If I were behind a wall with full concealment, I would be hidden. If I moved while staying behind the wall, I remain fully hidden. With the Hide in plain site ability, how often would I need to re-roll hide checks, when the conditions of my "hiddeness" have not changed? Every 5 feet of movement during my turn? That seems a bit ridiculous.

I mentioned the half speed movement as it means I get no new penalty to my hide checks. It seems then, that while moving at half speed, once a single hide check was established, unless I do something to change that condition (e.g., start moving at full speed, charge, attack from a fixed position), I would not need to keep establishing that I am hidden.

So again, it comes to when can the target make a spot check?
Wouldn't it be after my turn ended and after I performed my final hide check 15 feet away from where the target would be looking for me?

The only thing that mentions the -20 penalty to hide is when trying to hide in the exact location from which you made the attack. This hide check would mark the end of your character's turn, and would establish for the remainder of the round, if you remain hidden or are exposed. Now, this makes sense, as the target is going to have an idea which direction the arrow came from, and look there. If that happens to be where you are hiding, there is a greater chance the target would see you.

However, in my description of events , I have pointed out that come the end of my turn, I would not be where the target would be looking when making the spot check.

[Oddman80]

Almost. You still need cover/concealment to be allowed to Hide. The Hide in Plain Sight from Tome of Magic's Dark Creature template doesn't do anything about that requirement. (Out of all the various forms of HiPS that one's the weakest. Not only doesn't it bypass cover/concealment, it also just fails in daylight; it's only half reliable.) A Deeper Darkness spell would get you there, though that would be an obvious magical source of concealment and a prime target for countering or dispelling.

Ah - i see the confusion - the Dark Creature template i was using is from CORMYR, and allows hide while being observed and while lacking cover or concealement

[NoACWarrior]

IF you can get the feats (shape, bind to shoulders, and shot on the run or whatever it is) you can become ethereal for your movement, and then attack from the "etherealness".

The main issue is state based checks related to when you actually lose etherealness and when your weapons join the fray - if etherealness is lost too early you don't get a sneak attack, if it is lost too late your attack is ethereal and has a chance not to work.