dm woes.

[shadowseve]

So every other session our party is going up against level 20 + BBEGS. We are currently only lv 8. Our Gm is new and specifically stated the reason we're fighting epic level characters is for us to "learn our place" and so he can practice building characters. Sigh...... I have DM'D before and while I'm no where near as knowledgeable in RAW and min/maxing as most of the people on this board, everyone who has played with me has always liked the stories I've created. I can definitely understand being forced to retreat every now and then but facing the end guy every other session so we can "learn" our place? One would think that after the first ass whooping or two we would know what we're dealing with. Sigh..... I've pc'd in so many campaigns where it feels like the DM is gloating about their monstrous powerful enemies. It seems he can't win on tactics and is resourcing to overpowered characters to do the job. Sigh... then again this is just me ranting I suppose. Where's the surprises? Where are the subplots? Where's the suspense? A good game should build suspense, create subplots and surprises that motivate and keep the PC's on their feet. Keep the challenge rating at a level where the PC's can overcome if they play their cards right. A few deaths may occur but that's why true resurrection exists that alone can create more subplots. However; who wants to constantly face epic level characters at lv 8 and getting their ass whooped every other session?

/end rant

[Asteron]

Maybe you should talk to the DM and let him know that you guys find this unacceptable. If it doesn't end, you will all leave. His power as a DM only extends as far as the players let him before leaving. No group, no power... Even if the others won't follow you, you should leave yourself if you aren't having fun and he won't change.

Honestly, I'd have left as soon as he said "learn your place..." because my place is no where near that guy. My temper wouldn't allow it.

[Kazudo]

I would bring it up to the DM, which is usually the most advice anyone can give you. I mean, really, unless you are incredibly optimized you shouldn't be expected to be able to bring down a 20 CR creature.

It sounds like a DM who has control issues, which a new DM can have occasionally, since there is a lot of D&D that happens "behind the DM's curtain" that can give players the impression that the DM has absurd levels of authority and should be able to abuse them whenever they can. Don't get me wrong, sometimes I roll dice just to hear the sound and watch my players jump. But I never figure important things out unfairly, especially when it comes to the kinds of challenges I want to pit against my friends around the table.

[dascarletm]

I cant see this happening fairly unless: the boss is already stated and you accidentally stumbled upon him too early, or the DM is trying to give an impression that this organization/group/entity is far more powerful than you to invoke a certain mood to the characters. It sounds like neither is the case

[Gildedragon]

Mmm yeah
Bring it up with the DM. If the DM won't listen then leave or
Up your characters to lvl 20. Hey DM is running an epic campaign? Not Dying if you're a lvl 8er is prolly enough XP to level up a couple times.

[HammeredWharf]

If someone told me I have to "learn my place" and be the practice dummy for his character-building endeavors, I'd leave instantly. What's he even practicing? Beating lvl 8s with a lvl 20 isn't what I'd call a challenge, especially if you're the DM.

[shadowseve]

I was so planning on going planar shepherd and getting a fleshraker to kick his characters ass all over the place. Now I'm half tempted to roll a cancer mage with festering anger. I've brought it up with the dm before. He often asks for my advice on story line. I've advised again and again against throwing our party up against epic characters and to avoid bringing in epic characters at our level unless it's crucial to the story and even then it's not the best idea. He doesn't seem to listen and said he wants our characters to know what they're facing. I said dude people get tired of getting their ass handed to them unfairly. I'm I'm a fighter in full plate and I try to swim an ocean, then I deserve to die. If I try jumping a crevasse with a 300 foot drop I deserve to die. If we face a good fair challange and one of us drops ok. I'm tempted to quite honestly. Though building a cancer mage with festering anger would be soo much fun. or this guy

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2548.0

The dm offered at one point to let me go planar shepherd and to have a fleshraker. I said no let's keep the party balanced. I regret that now.

[Ansem]

****ty DM, set him straight with a talk or find a new one.
Simple as that.

[shadowseve]

****ty DM, set him straight with a talk or find a new one.
Simple as that.


I think what I'm going to do is give the dm one more try. Since the previous conversations haven't worked.If we find another lv 20 next session and lose, Im seriously thing I'm going to create a new character based on a cancer mage and festering anger. He knows nothing of that prestige class nor how broken it can be. I'll have no character concept. Only the agenda to beat the **** out of anything he can create. Then I'll leave the campaign.

[Synar]

Why not telling him first that if this continue, you will leave? Because if (in the eventuality) you did not clearly stated that, he might not has understood the "seriousness" of your complain, and how much you are fed up. After all, you don't want to alienate a friend.

And passive-agressivness with abroken character? I would strongly advise you not to go down that road, unless you think nobody will be too much bothered or you intend to show him the problem and stick around for the changes. But doing that and storming out right after? Way to break a friendship (assuming he is your friend).

[Captnq]

Dude, You are going about this all wrong.

He's making a 20th level NPC bad guy who keeps showing up over and over to kick your ass and show you "your place" Well, agree with him. Clearly your place is to join with the evil guy as his minions. Since there are no good NPCs or gods or anyone who can keep this monstrosity in check, the logical conclusion is to just give up and join the winning side.

Discuss it with the other players. Make sure they won't just murder you when you offer to join forces with the ultimate lord of darkness. Remember:
EVIL IS A GROWTH INDUSTRY!
We're ALWAYS hiring! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0446.html)

[shadowseve]

Why not telling him first that if this continue, you will leave? Because if (in the eventuality) you did not clearly stated that, he might not has understood the "seriousness" of your complain, and how much you are fed up. After all, you don't want to alienate a friend.

And passive-agressivness with abroken character? I would strongly advise you not to go down that road, unless you think nobody will be too much bothered or you intend to show him the problem and stick around for the changes. But doing that and storming out right after? Way to break a friendship (assuming he is your friend).

yeah you're right. I'm just irritated. I've spoken several times and it's not been heard. That's the annoying part. But your right about taking vengeance with a broken pc is not the answer.

[shadowseve]

Dude, You are going about this all wrong.

He's making a 20th level NPC bad guy who keeps showing up over and over to kick your ass and show you "your place" Well, agree with him. Clearly your place is to join with the evil guy as his minions. Since there are no good NPCs or gods or anyone who can keep this monstrosity in check, the logical conclusion is to just give up and join the winning side.

Discuss it with the other players. Make sure they won't just murder you when you offer to join forces with the ultimate lord of darkness. Remember:
EVIL IS A GROWTH INDUSTRY!
We're ALWAYS hiring! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0446.html)


One of the PC's she's dating the other is my wife. I think I may talk to her about it. Honestly if the wizard tried to kill my druid. I'd blind him, entangle him in kelp then walk over and join the other side. My wife wouldn't stop me.


I think I will take your advice :D

[Deathra13]

As always talking is the best first plan. Leaving if that fails is also good. Assuming you feel like being spiteful without building game breaking pcs though. Talk your group into role playing out staying in the tavern and drinking and socializing and refusing to actually adventure. If he brings the bad guy to you ask where the town guard, army or whatever else might be guarding the area is. Promptly run away, and find a bigger more defended kingdom and repeat until the DM promises to stop sending out these epic level characters and sticks to reasonable challenge ratings.

[Captnq]

One of the PC's she's dating the other is my wife. I think I may talk to her about it. Honestly if the wizard tried to kill my druid. I'd blind him, entangle him in kelp then walk over and join the other side. My wife wouldn't stop me.

I think I will take your advice :D

It works. Trust me.

After you go to join the bad guys, the DM will be so flabbergasted that they'll knee jerk refuse to hire you. Then you have to make a sales pitch.

At some point they'll trot out the, "You'll have to sell your soul and do whatever the Villian tells you." The counter argument is, "So? He's 20th, we're 8th. We have to do what he says anyways or die. It's not like we had a choice to begin with. YOU are the one who made it so UN-FUN being the good guys that being evil looks like a viable alternative. Seriously, what were you expecting?"

"Hello! We're not playing world of darkness, this is fantasy role-playing. If your options are run away, lose or join up with evil, well, I choose the option with the most fun. After all, that's why I'm here, to have fun."

See, your DM's problem is, she thinks the game is DM vs players. It's not. It's DM vs DM and players. A good DM is his own worst enemy. A good DM murders his own favorate NPCs and backstabs his own villians all the time.

Just the other day, they players were using doorway to evil and I had them drop down into a mass of slaves in the under dark being herded along by Drow. Well the PCs have had a truce of sorts with the drow, so they we're in a pickle (hey, you use a random teleport spell, you get randomly teleported) Anyrate, long story short, they knock out about 50 drow, this provokes the slaves to revolt, suddenly they are working to protect NPCs in an uprising they didn't want to start. So the enemy cleric bugs out with word of recall.

Later, they try to make amends and fix the treaty. They figure they just need to bribe enough. So the use sending to contact the enemy High priestess. Boy were they surprised to find the enemy priestess was murdered for cowardness in the face of the enemy. They really liked that NPC, but you know, Drow society ain't fair. Two plot lines flushed away on a random die roll.

It's cool. That's what a DM does. Sometimes things happen when the player's aren't around.

You know, I got to get around to finishing that DM handbook.

[shadowseve]

It works. Trust me.

After you go to join the bad guys, the DM will be so flabbergasted that they'll knee jerk refuse to hire you. Then you have to make a sales pitch.

At some point they'll trot out the, "You'll have to sell your soul and do whatever the Villian tells you." The counter argument is, "So? He's 20th, we're 8th. We have to do what he says anyways or die. It's not like we had a choice to begin with. YOU are the one who made it so UN-FUN being the good guys that being evil looks like a viable alternative. Seriously, what were you expecting?"

"Hello! We're not playing world of darkness, this is fantasy role-playing. If your options are run away, lose or join up with evil, well, I choose the option with the most fun. After all, that's why I'm here, to have fun."

See, your DM's problem is, she thinks the game is DM vs players. It's not. It's DM vs DM and players. A good DM is his own worst enemy. A good DM murders his own favorate NPCs and backstabs his own villians all the time.

Just the other day, they players were using doorway to evil and I had them drop down into a mass of slaves in the under dark being herded along by Drow. Well the PCs have had a truce of sorts with the drow, so they we're in a pickle (hey, you use a random teleport spell, you get randomly teleported) Anyrate, long story short, they knock out about 50 drow, this provokes the slaves to revolt, suddenly they are working to protect NPCs in an uprising they didn't want to start. So the enemy cleric bugs out with word of recall.

Later, they try to make amends and fix the treaty. They figure they just need to bribe enough. So the use sending to contact the enemy High priestess. Boy were they surprised to find the enemy priestess was murdered for cowardness in the face of the enemy. They really liked that NPC, but you know, Drow society ain't fair. Two plot lines flushed away on a random die roll.

It's cool. That's what a DM does. Sometimes things happen when the player's aren't around.

You know, I got to get around to finishing that DM handbook.

I couldn't agree with you more. Your PCs are the most important part of what you do. Being a DM is about killing you're characters happily while giving a great story and challenging the PCs fairly. He's PC,d under me and really liked the campaign so I don't know why he's pulling this crap.

[Norfire]

Why not telling him first that if this continue, you will leave? Because if (in the eventuality) you did not clearly stated that, he might not has understood the "seriousness" of your complain, and how much you are fed up. After all, you don't want to alienate a friend.

And passive-agressivness with abroken character? I would strongly advise you not to go down that road, unless you think nobody will be too much bothered or you intend to show him the problem and stick around for the changes. But doing that and storming out right after? Way to break a friendship (assuming he is your friend).

I agree with this completely. It's not worth it and he wont learn any lesson. Talk to the group and have them all voice complaints to him. Make sure he knows he is being a terrible DM and that if it doesn't change you all will leave. No one should ever be so desperate for game time that they tolerate that nonsense.

[shadowseve]

I agree with this completely. It's not worth it and he wont learn any lesson. Talk to the group and have them all voice complaints to him. Make sure she he knows he is being a terrible DM and that if it doesn't change you all will leave. No one should ever be so desperate for game time that they tolerate that nonsense.

The thing is he loves his enemies to much to let them die. So they're all epic. But yeah my tolerance is at an end. Especially since I I've expressed it time and time again. There had been one npc fight that was appropriate for our level but when I went for the kill he forced my lethal damage to non lethal to prevent death. Then the bbeg came and saved the day. He knew I was pissed and we talked in private. So I'm at the point of wanting to do anything to grab his attention.

[pwykersotz]

This has New GM Syndrome written all over it. I'd say you should rotate GM's and campaigns every couple weeks or so. This is a phase a lot of GM's go through where they don't internalize the core concepts to a fun game and default to antagonism as opposed to game facilitation. Sometimes it can be fixed, if you're willing to put in the work and if the GM is receptive to feedback over time. Remember that most people bristle when confronted with their flaws, but if you present them with ways to improve over time and lead by example, eventually they can turn into a great GM.

Otherwise, yeah, a lot of the above advice is great.

[shadowseve]

This has New GM SyndromButitten all over it. I'd say you should rotate GM's and campaigns every couple weeks or so. This is a phase a lot of GM's go through where they don't internalize the core concepts to a fun game and default to antagonism as opposed to game facilitation. Sometimes it can be fixed, if you're willing to put in the work and if the GM is receptive to feedback over time. Remember that most people bristle when confronted with their flaws, but if you present them with ways to improve over time and lead by example, eventually they can turn into a great GM.

Otherwise, yeah, a lot of the above advice is great.

I think I'm going to give one more chance and then I'm done. She'll take advice as far as character building but not when it comes to toning down on epic characters. She had about five npcs that travel with the party and I've had to do the combat for a few of her npcs while controlling my own character.

[nedz]

It works. Trust me.

After you go to join the bad guys, the DM will be so flabbergasted that they'll knee jerk refuse to hire you. Then you have to make a sales pitch.

At some point they'll trot out the, "You'll have to sell your soul and do whatever the Villian tells you." The counter argument is, "So? He's 20th, we're 8th. We have to do what he says anyways or die. It's not like we had a choice to begin with. YOU are the one who made it so UN-FUN being the good guys that being evil looks like a viable alternative. Seriously, what were you expecting?"

"Hello! We're not playing world of darkness, this is fantasy role-playing. If your options are run away, lose or join up with evil, well, I choose the option with the most fun. After all, that's why I'm here, to have fun."

See, your DM's problem is, she thinks the game is DM vs players. It's not. It's DM vs DM and players. A good DM is his own worst enemy. A good DM murders his own favorate NPCs and backstabs his own villians all the time.

Just the other day, they players were using doorway to evil and I had them drop down into a mass of slaves in the under dark being herded along by Drow. Well the PCs have had a truce of sorts with the drow, so they we're in a pickle (hey, you use a random teleport spell, you get randomly teleported) Anyrate, long story short, they knock out about 50 drow, this provokes the slaves to revolt, suddenly they are working to protect NPCs in an uprising they didn't want to start. So the enemy cleric bugs out with word of recall.

Later, they try to make amends and fix the treaty. They figure they just need to bribe enough. So the use sending to contact the enemy High priestess. Boy were they surprised to find the enemy priestess was murdered for cowardness in the face of the enemy. They really liked that NPC, but you know, Drow society ain't fair. Two plot lines flushed away on a random die roll.

It's cool. That's what a DM does. Sometimes things happen when the player's aren't around.

You know, I got to get around to finishing that DM handbook.

I'm not sure that this will solve the problem — won't team GOOD then all be 20th level also ?

[shadowseve]

I'm not sure that this will solve the problem — won't team GOOD then all be 20th level also ?

Possibly...

[pwykersotz]

I think I'm going to give one more chance and then I'm done. She'll take advice as far as character building but not when it comes to toning down on epic characters. She had about five npcs that travel with the party and I've had to do the combat for a few of her npcs while controlling my own character.

Wow...that's, yeah...wow.

That requires action. She's in her own little fantasy world, not running a game at all. Dollars to doughnuts if you ask for a hack and slash game with no intelligent conversation, she'll throw in the most beautiful unicorn in the forest who instinctively knows and can preempt any assaults.

Based on what you've said, I'm down to politely but firmly telling her 'no mas'.

[Brookshw]

It's one thing to have a clearly higher level character interact with the party, and maybe even another to have a bbeg give the party a bit of a kicking so they have a measuring stick later on to see how much they've progressed and make the victory that much sweeter. It's quite another to actively assault the party with "you lose" situations. Unless there was some precampaign discussion of this being an element its a valid concern to address with them. There are ways for introducing and foreshadowing bbegs, and they are not all created equal.

[shadowseve]

It's one thing to have a clearly higher level character interact with the party, and maybe even another to have a bbeg give the party a bit of a kicking so they have a measuring stick later on to see how much they've progressed and make the victory that much sweeter. It's quite another to actively assault the party with "you lose" situations. Unless there was some precampaign discussion of this being an element its a valid concern to address with them. There are ways for introducing and foreshadowing bbegs, and they are not all created equal.

This.. Omg this is exactly what I've been telling her. Exactly my point. Once in a while it's ok. But it's almost every other encounter we're facing him. Our someone else 6-7 levels higher. It's getting old.

[Synar]

This has New GM Syndrome written all over it. I'd say you should rotate GM's and campaigns every couple weeks or so. This is a phase a lot of GM's go through where they don't internalize the core concepts to a fun game and default to antagonism as opposed to game facilitation. Sometimes it can be fixed, if you're willing to put in the work and if the GM is receptive to feedback over time. Remember that most people bristle when confronted with their flaws, but if you present them with ways to improve over time and lead by example, eventually they can turn into a great GM.

Otherwise, yeah, a lot of the above advice is great.

(Relevant part bolded.) If you have anyone in your group willing to DM and want to stay with this group, this may be a nice alternative to quitting (still assuming the DM is ooc your friend).

[shadowseve]

(Relevant part bolded.) If you have anyone in your group willing to DM and want to stay with this group, this may be a nice alternative to quitting (still assuming the DM is ooc your friend).


we have new dm now. Old one was booted after a tpw on against two epic bbegs.

[RedMage125]

Lot of good advice here.

My 2cp is this: Part of being a Good DM is remembering that the Players Are the Heroes. That means they get the spotlight. I've played with a guy who regularly ran us level 6-7 players against Epic Evil NPCs, and then had to have Epic Nonevil NPC X swoop in and save us, and then we had to do what he said, because he was Epic, and we were not.

I left. I don't play D&D to sit on the sidelines and watch the DM's ego diddle itself while his 2 Epic NPCs fight it out. Players should be the protagonists of the story.

OP: Explain to your DM (out of session), that you and the other players are not having fun. He wants practice making NPCs, great. the best way to do that is NOT to make super-awesome ones that the PCs won't kill, but to learn to make "disposable" ones. NPCs that the party can and will kill after one, or maybe 2 encounters. Getting too attached to your NPCs and not wanting them to die is not a good way to learn to make and run NPCs. Don't plot-armor save them if the PC rolls well and kills them when you expected them to run away, adapt. And bringing them back to life should only ever be done sparingly

Honestly, the only time I ever brought a dead NPC back to life was to subtly highlight the connection between what the players had done at low-levels (1-5), and what they were doing in a different part of the world much later (around level 10). And the NPC I brought back, was the BBEG of that other campaign arc, and while he HAD levelled up, it was not nearly at the rate of the PCs. So when the PCs first faced him, he was level 6 or so, and they were level 4. When they were level 10, he was only level 8. So they got to see a familiar face that they remembered being a super bad*** back in the day, and they monkey-stomped him in a few rounds. It made them feel even more heroic and BA themselves. As an aside, it also made them make the connection between the orc raids they dealt with as low-level characters, and the devil summoners they were dealing with now.

[John Longarrow]

shadowseve

What I'd suggest is talking to the other players first. If they are as unhappy as you, all of you need to talk to the DM. If that doesn't work...

DM: OK, BBEG shows up!
You: Break out the Munchkin deck and start dealing.
DM: What are you doing about BBEG?
You: Nothing.
Other players: <Roll to see who goes first>

If you are nice, deal the DM in. As is, it sounds like they really want to play Munchkin rather than D&D.

[Peelee]

we have new dm now. Old one was booted after a tpw on against two epic bbegs.

How did it work out? No hard feelings or other fallout, I hope?

[Killer Angel]

we have new dm now. Old one was booted after a tpw on against two epic bbegs.

yeah. Because one wasn't enough... :smallsigh:

[shadowseve]

How did it work out? No hard feelings or other fallout, I hope?

NO not at all. We were gentle. Sh'es going to pc and get some pointers from this new dm. We've not started yet. we're designing the character concepts.

[Synar]

Good.
I hope this will be a better arrangement, and that you new DM will be a good one!

[Peelee]

NO not at all. We were gentle. Sh'es going to pc and get some pointers from this new dm. We've not started yet. we're designing the character concepts.

I always like a story with a happy ending. Especially if it's an RL story. Good luck in your new campaign!

[Mieko]

Funny thing. I get a similar experience these days, who is DM changes a lot in our group...

Currently we're in a city where spellcasters can't cast at all, we got forced to go to this city, the group is split all the time (at any point half of the group has nothing to do), and the other part of the group (lvl10 PCs) right now faces a lvl 20 enemy...

[RedMage125]

Funny thing. I get a similar experience these days, who is DM changes a lot in our group...

Currently we're in a city where spellcasters can't cast at all, we got forced to go to this city, the group is split all the time (at any point half of the group has nothing to do), and the other part of the group (lvl10 PCs) right now faces a lvl 20 enemy...

I've had something like that, but at least I knew it was temporary. In a FR game, we had to cross the desert of Araunauch, which is one big Dead Magic Zone. I played the party wizard, and we were all level 16. No one's magic items worked, but I was useless. Took 3 sessions of playing to cross it.

Of course, when we finally got to our destination, and all my magic came back, I blew a whole bunch of high level spells and limited use/day PrC abilities to reduce an EL 18 encounter to 2 half-dead creatures in 2 rounds. The DM got a little snippy, claiming my character build was broken and too OP, but I reminded him of what resources I had expended to do that, and also that he had forced me to be useless for the last 3 weeks worth of sessions.