Throne Room Protections

[Angelalex242]

I was talking about throne rooms in another thread, and all the protections likely to be on one.

Assuming a reasonably wealthy country, what magical protections and magical items is Good King Niceguy likely to have his throneroom (and his person.)

Assume he'd better be able to beat scry and die, or he'd be dead already. In fact, the whole castle should probably be scry and die proof, lest the king wake up to find all his ministers dead.

Equally, what magical protections would Bad King Evilguy have on his throne room? Most of it will be the same, or the same, but alignment reversed, but there are some spells that are flat out 'good' and spells that are flat out 'evil' that the good king and the bad king might not share.

The throne rooms should likely be ECL 20 for encounter purposes. Any less then that, and a crazed party of adventurers would've killed him already.

[The Grue]

The throne rooms should likely be ECL 20 for encounter purposes. Any less then that, and a crazed party of adventurers would've killed him already.

I think there's a few unstated assumptions here.

[Gildedragon]

Considering throne rooms were courts of justice:
Zone of Truth worked into the room
the throne is probably a CHA booster
Peacebond trap that targets any weapon that isn't specifically excepted

[Angelalex242]

Granted, but if you had the wealth and power of a kingdom behind you, wouldn't YOU make the castle as magically impervious as possible?

[The Grue]

Granted, but if you had the wealth and power of a kingdom behind you, wouldn't YOU make the castle as magically impervious as possible?

Yes however ECL 20 is absurdly high unless the power curve for your campaign setting is way out of whack. Assuming the base guidelines for creating NPC townsfolk, the average citizen will have between one and three levels in an NPC class - and medieval armies are drafted from the average citizenry. A professional army analogous to the Roman legions might have three or four levels in an NPC class like Warrior.

If Good King Niceguy's keep is under siege and his court retreats to the throne room, how many legionaries must Caesar Absurdium pour into the castle to overcome the ECL20 safeguards?

If, however, your campaign setting assumes that the King has 15 or more levels in a PC class, and the armies of his enemies are comprised of soldiers with similar ECL then that's another thing entirely. But that assumption raises the question of how ECL 1 player-characters can ever break into the adventuring industry. Why does Good King Niceguy need to hire a band of plucky ECL 1 murderhobos to root out a goblin camp, when he can waltz in and slaughter them singlehanded without breaking a sweat?

[Andion Isurand]

If you know someone capable, you could have a mythal raised to govern and utilize magic in the area, and attune trusted members of the court to the mythal in a way that lets them operate with fewer restrictions and better access to its effects.

A couple individual spells to start with, as far as a non-epic solution is concerned... Mage's Private Sanctum and Forbiddance are useful and long lasting effects I would include for the throne room.

[Angelalex242]

It depends on the King.

King Arthur might well be a level 15 Paladin. Merlin might be a level 15 Wizard. Etc.

But Good King Niceguy...maybe he's not. Maybe he's just a 4th level aristocrat/noble/whatever they call it these days.

That doesn't mean he can't have the WBL of a 20th level character, just to signify the fact he's the king. A king should certainly have more resources then your average PC. Moreover, those items would be collected over time by previous royals. Maybe the Royal Sword's a +5 Holy Lawful Keen weapon, and it's Holy Lawful because if the king says ow when he uses it, he's no longer king. It might even be an intelligent weapon, with the first king of the country's mind inside. Maybe there's a royal Cloak of Charisma +6, and a Circlet of Persuasion. Maybe he's got an periapt of protection against poison and an amulet of health.

[Dr. Cliché]

A few things:

1) This king must be very powerful in order for his throne room to be a CR20 encounter. What level is he?

2) If he isn't powerful, then how the heck is he getting that much power? Are his advisors ~lv20? If so, is there a reason they haven't just obliterated him and declared themselves king?

3) Is there a specific reason his defences would need to be that strong? I mean, what sort of challenges has he faced that would require that? Do demons frequently invade his throne room?

The problem, as I see it, is that a king would have to either be an amazing wizard himself, or hire some powerful wizards to erect some defences. But, if the latter, he'd have to be pretty damn paranoid to consider that. And, even if he is that paranoid, he'd have to really trust those wizards he's hiring...

I mean, it's possible, but I think the king would have to be really paranoid and xenophobic. The sort who'd sentence his own servants to death at the slightest hint of treachery (real or imagined).

[IslandDog]

I'm not sure about power level etc, but in terms of protections:
Both kings should have some sort of bolt hole that's easily accessible so that they can escape if worst comes to worst.
I'd imagine that the walls of the room have slits or windows or something - anything to allow a contingent of armed guards to see what's going on and rush in if necessary.
The throne room could have a tall ceiling, and one story up a pathway encircling the room behind a bannister. Crossbow armed guards could pace up there and take aim on anyone below.
In terms of the zone of truth that was suggested earlier, it should be sculpted not to include the throne itself (for both kings). Can you imagine diplomacy where the king has to tell the truth?
"Are you going to declare war on kingdom X tomorrow?"
"...yes."
"Alright, I'll go warn them now!'

[Gemini476]

Well, some obvious things.

Magic Circle Against X: having one for every alignment would be a good idea here, but the big draw is the immunity to mind-affecting and suppression of preexisting effects.
Dimensional Anchor: Pretty obvious.
Zone of Truth: At least one spot should have this. It doesn't do what you think it does, but at least one spot in the throne room should have this.
Some way of stopping inbound teleportation: this is really tricky, actually, but easier when just talking about a throne room.
Arcane Sight: Someone should have this.
True Sight: Same here.
Detect X: Finding out someones alignment can tell you a great deal about someone.
Some way to make the king immune to assassination - Delay Death, Contingent Revivify, Contingent Heal on >1HP, regeneration if possible, the whole shebang.
Have the king Polymorphed into something impressive and Hat of Disguised into himself.

That's just the start, of course.

For people commenting about levels, remember that the four highest level Aristocrats in a Metropolis with more than 25,000 people are level 12+1d4.
For the Captain of the Guard, 60% are the highest-level Warrior (12+2d4) 20% are the second highest-level Fighter (12+1d8) and 20% are the highest-level Fighter (12+1d8).

Assuming that you are playing by-the-book, of course.

[Vogonjeltz]

Or the king could be king, and command loyalty of his subjects, by virtue of his birthright. Plenty of people exist who could defeat the king, but they have no motivation for doing so, and the kingdom literally stands in their way. And even if they did kill the current king, succession would mean a new king would be in place fairly immediately, who would no doubt place a hefty bounty on whomever committed the regicide. Inevitably someone as powerful as the killer would enact justice.

Individuals can be quite powerful, but institutions are typically more resilient.

Also: so what if you killed the king? Resurrection exists. Death: it's just a minor hiccup for the average Royalty.

[The Grue]

Or the king could be king, and command loyalty of his subjects, by virtue of his birthright.

There were very few historical monarchs who ruled through birthright alone. Even those who were the eldest sons of the last monarch often had to secure the throne on the strength of their armies.

[Angelalex242]

"No motivation for doing so"?

Well, if we're talking about Good King Niceguy (who has the loyalty and trust of all his subjects, but that doesn't stop Bad King Evilguy's greed and conquest tendenciies at all...), there's a truckload of assassins in the employ of Bad King Evilguy who will kill him simply because they were paid to. And they'll probably nuke the body so it takes a 9th level spell to bring him back.

If the King has heirs? Gank them too! They're assassins, not idiots.

So, Bad King Evil guy basically marked Good King Niceguy for death, and he's willing to hire what are essentially evil parties of PCs to put Good King Niceguy in a pinebox.

[TuggyNE]

Or the king could be king, and command loyalty of his subjects, by virtue of his birthright. Plenty of people exist who could defeat the king, but they have no motivation for doing so, and the kingdom literally stands in their way. And even if they did kill the current king, succession would mean a new king would be in place fairly immediately, who would no doubt place a hefty bounty on whomever committed the regicide. Inevitably someone as powerful as the killer would enact justice.

Individuals can be quite powerful, but institutions are typically more resilient.

An institution that depends on absolutely nothing but loyalty is one of the most fragile things out there. Ambition, spite, bitterness, conflicting loyalties, greed, and more can all be powerful forces to turn "I'm a noble, why would I want to be king?" into "The king is going to die by my hand". Generally speaking, I would say that the number of rulers with such good rapport with their people that they need fear no treachery is well under 1%. (For obvious reasons, actual examples of this cannot be given.)


Also: so what if you killed the king? Resurrection exists. Death: it's just a minor hiccup for the average Royalty.

Thinaun weapons say uh-oh.

[Angelalex242]

Yep. Even King Arthur had Sir Mordred stabbing him in the back.
Richard the Lionheart had Prince John and the Sherriff of Nottingham stabbing him in the back...

...even in fiction, it's hard to find a king so wise and respected that they don't have a Sir Mordred or Prince John lurking about.

Even Mufasa found out, to his lethal detriment, that Scar wanted his throne too. Yes, even Disney kings are not exempt.

[Captnq]

Uh... I for one am interested in this thread regardless of power level. I can always scale down, it's not so easy to know what to scale up.

So with that in mind, assuming the use of wondrous architecture, what spells would you make permanent/continious in a thrown room, assuming you could go hog wild?

Hardness on the entrances and exits.
Wizard locks
Alarm spells.
Walls of force inside the walls of the throne room?

An area in front of the throne where supplicants must stand. They inflict various things like zone of truth, alignment detection, Detect poison

Here
0-level
Detect Magic: Detects spells and magic items within 60 ft.
Detect Poison: Detects poison in one creature or small object.

1st level wizard:
Detect Dragonblood: Detect dragons and dragon blooded creatures within 60 ft.
Detect Dragonmark: Detect and identify dragonmarks within 60 ft.
Detect Incarnum: Detect soulmelds and essentia within 60 ft.
Detect Undead: Reveals undead within 60 ft.
Detect Vestige: Reveals bound vestiges within 60 ft.
Detect Weaponry: Reveals weapons within 60 feet.
Discern Bloodline: Know the race of one creature/level.

2nd-level
Detect Aberration: Detect the presence of aberrations.
Detect Thoughts: Allows “listening” to surface thoughts.

4th level
Know Vulnerabilities: Determine subject’s vulnerabilities and resistances.

9th level
Hindsight: You see into the past. (The subjects past, specifically. And an illusion spell to project it over their head So when someone talks about a past event, it actually plays out as it really happened.)

A curse to make the target have a -6 on any attempts to lie?

[ArqArturo]

Just get the Iron Throne. That should give anyone sitting there a few ranks in Intimidate, Spot, and Sense Motive.

Oh, but not this one.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/images/thumb/0/0b/Iron_throne_HBO.jpg/250px-Iron_throne_HBO.jpg

Get this one.

http://www.geeksofdoom.com/GoD/img/2013/07/2013-07-09-the_iron_throne-533x773.jpg

[Erik Vale]

Best protections any king etc can have [Not making for a CR 20 challenge though]:

Simulacrum.
Planar Bound Nightmare. Preferably generated by reseting traps. You could instead buy it's loyalty but that's more up to DM discretion than Serve me for X timeperioud.
Telepathic Bond+Permanancy. Preferably generated by reseting traps.

King makes Simulacrum of himself, Simulacrum gets to be king under the proviso that King gets to tell it what to do whenever important things come up because he does know better [double levels=near double skill ranks] and alignment/desire to be king keeps it in line. Simulucrum then gets the nightmare to make the copy of it and take the copy to the prime-material. This copy is then linked to the king with the bond, and rulership proceeds like normal.

Then, should the Simulacrum's copy ever be attacked, the simulacrum will know the details, the king will know the details, and should the place be just wiped out, the king will know due to the bond breaking.

The king now goes off to do his thing, which could be hiding and existing through multiple dupes and simulacrum/projections [projections of projections!] or visiting his favourite brothel 3 kingdoms over from his time as an adventurer when he was a starting adventurer.


Edit: It should go without saying this king is powerful, existing under anti-divinations and if going about his way, using spells + disguise to not look like himself... And that I haven't read much of the thread, however I could see the first king setting up a resetting trap of the three that each king uses.

[Gemini476]

Oh yeah, ECL 20. Well then, in addition to everything else mentioned here the King is actually an Astral Projection of an Ice Assassin who has an Interplanar Telepathic Bond with the king himself. The king is in a secret demiplane and kept safe by more things.

[Angelalex242]

...Wow. Imagine a world where EVERY SINGLE KING was actually an ice assassin in a telepathic bond with the real king.

...Most Queens are probably ice assassins too, as the real king is going to want his wife around.

The princes and princesses might also be ice assassins. Cause, hey, why not?

When ever a prince marries a princess from another country, what actually happens is the two ice assassins mime getting married, then the princess is plane shifted to the prince's demiplane.

[Captnq]

I think the OP intended for the ROOM to have a GROUP Challenge Rating of 20, not a king with a CR 20.

I could have a level 1 king, but with enough traps, spells, equipment, guards, constructs, animated objects, the encounter challenge rating is 20.

So, instead of planning out King's mentally connected to ice assassins to simulacrums that are using projected image to conduct meetings via crystal ball, how about suggestions on making a room with cool spells and ideas?

[Ravens_cry]

You got to admit though, ice assassin would make so many courtly duties easier. Need to command the army, spend time with your queen, your mistresses, your kids, and take meetings with various ministers, hold court, and judge various criminal cases, while appearing for your subjects at various functions? You need some duplicates for that kind of work load.

[The Grue]

Is there anything that can't be optimized via Ice Assassin?

[Ravens_cry]

Is there anything that can't be optimized via Ice Assassin?
Ask Doctor Manhattan.:smalltongue:

[Dr. Cliché]

...Wow. Imagine a world where EVERY SINGLE KING was actually an ice assassin in a telepathic bond with the real king.

Isn't that how the Tippyverse is ruled? :smallwink:

[sideswipe]

the most simple of things in the whole world instead of huge magical defences to beat scrying. the whole room is lead lined. stops scry. then the throne room is also where all lvl 17+ npc's live for free. with their extravagant living quarters right next to the room. and all paid handsomely for their troubles.

or the whole place is an anti magic field surrounded by lead and walls of force with paladins and fighters and the like all protecting the king.

[Ravens_cry]

I think it could be fun to mix superstitious protections with the working protections. For example, on addition to an antimagic field set in place before the throne, one is also anointed with oil one ones forehead in the shape or outline of the holy symbol of a locally favoured god or goddess.

[Vogonjeltz]

There were very few historical monarchs who ruled through birthright alone. Even those who were the eldest sons of the last monarch often had to secure the throne on the strength of their armies.

Strength of armies = loyal vassals. Someone has to be loyal to someone else or no society exists anywhere. People are much more often loyal to familial bonds than not.


An institution that depends on absolutely nothing but loyalty is one of the most fragile things out there. Ambition, spite, bitterness, conflicting loyalties, greed, and more can all be powerful forces to turn "I'm a noble, why would I want to be king?" into "The king is going to die by my hand". Generally speaking, I would say that the number of rulers with such good rapport with their people that they need fear no treachery is well under 1%. (For obvious reasons, actual examples of this cannot be given.)

Thinaun weapons say uh-oh.

There very well may be people disloyal to the crown, however as the penalty is usually death and loss of status for their children and any other descendants, most would not be stupid enough to actually go against the ruling monarchy. It's very high stakes, more so when simple divinations can reveal which nobles took part in a plot, so that even if they kill the king (who inevitably gets resurrected, I'll get to the thinaun weapon in a moment), they are certain to be caught and fail in the long run. And once their heirs are divested of lands and titles, it's game over for them.

As for thinaun weapons, you do have to kill the person with them, which means physically being at the king AND getting away. And even then, locate object tracks it back easily for destruction. It's just not reliable as a method when plot armor isn't made available by the DM.


Yep. Even King Arthur had Sir Mordred stabbing him in the back.
Richard the Lionheart had Prince John and the Sherriff of Nottingham stabbing him in the back...

...even in fiction, it's hard to find a king so wise and respected that they don't have a Sir Mordred or Prince John lurking about.

Even Mufasa found out, to his lethal detriment, that Scar wanted his throne too. Yes, even Disney kings are not exempt.

I agree, fiction where there is tension is more interesting than fiction where everyone is happy or where those who don't recognize they have to knuckle under.

[Ravens_cry]

Strength of armies = loyal vassals. Someone has to be loyal to someone else or no society exists anywhere. People are much more often loyal to familial bonds than not.

As they say, blood is thicker than water. Yes, I know the original meaning for that phrase claimed the opposite, but it's rather telling that that what the idiomatic meaning has become. Family is, well, family.

[Brookshw]

As for thinaun weapons, you do have to kill the person with them, which means physically being at the king AND getting away. And even then, locate object tracks it back easily for destruction. It's just not reliable as a method when plot armor isn't made available by the DM.


Hmmm......contingency/craft contingency disintegrate on king to Target any weapon that slays him, damage might be enough to destroy it. Probably other spell options out there. Edit: scratch this actually, invalid spell I believe.

Repulsion fields might be another good king safeguard to layer on.

Animate objects galore depending on the op level. I guess really the op level would greatly impact whatever safeguards.

[TuggyNE]

Strength of armies = loyal vassals. Someone has to be loyal to someone else or no society exists anywhere. People are much more often loyal to familial bonds than not.

What you do is you rely partly on loyalty in such cases, and partly on various other motivations: promises of rewards, fear of punishments, and so on, so that one partly-loyal vassal keeps another in line. You don't just go "loyalty!" and leave it at that: that's a recipe for being overthrown.


There very well may be people disloyal to the crown, however as the penalty is usually death and loss of status for their children and any other descendants, most would not be stupid enough to actually go against the ruling monarchy. It's very high stakes, more so when simple divinations can reveal which nobles took part in a plot, so that even if they kill the king (who inevitably gets resurrected, I'll get to the thinaun weapon in a moment), they are certain to be caught and fail in the long run. And once their heirs are divested of lands and titles, it's game over for them.

And now you understand. Well, aside from the "guaranteed catching", which seems unreasonable; there are ways of fooling divinations.


As for thinaun weapons, you do have to kill the person with them, which means physically being at the king AND getting away. And even then, locate object tracks it back easily for destruction.

Stick the weapon in a lead box before you teleport away. Done.

Seriously, this is not hard. :smallsigh:


I agree, fiction where there is tension is more interesting than fiction where everyone is happy or where those who don't recognize they have to knuckle under.

Missing the point of the examples much?

[Synar]

Oups, look like you could not get to the king.
Oups, look like your weapon did not slay the king at first strike!
Oups, look like you were hit by a disintegrate beam, and your weapon was destroyed.
Oups, look like you can't teleport out of this room!

I mean, the thread is under the assumption that the kings has protection in place. So yes, it is that hard. But less disbelief, and more listing of cool spells for a throne room!

(I know, everthing fall out when you start doing too much op or think too hard about it, but such is the nature of D&D)

Coulnd't symbols be used profitably, with the right activation triggers?

[Werephilosopher]

Some spell turrets would be useful. Have everyone who normally enters the throne room be recognized by them all the time, and maybe have one central out-of-room "control panel" to quickly make all the turrets recognize diplomats/unexpected guests/etc. when they need to enter.

[Gildedragon]

Thianium can be extremely regulated, it's production and import being particularly illegal.