[PF] Is Raging Vitality worth it if you have Diehard?

[Rossebay]

So Raging Vitality gives you +2 constitution when raging, and makes it so that you may continue to rage while unconscious.

But Diehard just allows me to stay conscious, right? So I continue to rage anyway, but I can also move. Sure, I'm then missing the +2 con, but if I really need HP that badly I can take toughness or just drink a potion, no?

Am I missing something here?

[Gildedragon]

Wait wait wait.
You can keep raging while unconcious... That just brings to mind images of the half-orc barbarian at night, frothing at the mouth, tossing and turning in his sleep mumbling "Dhurag rip the marshmellow-marshfolk... haah no flanking for you..." followed by smacking of his lips, all the while the elf ranger on watch stares funny at him

[JusticeZero]

The main thing you're missing is that as your levels go up, the range of HP that those feats will keep you up and swinging at becomes vanishingly tiny; it doesn't scale at anywhere near the speed you need it to. Also, consider the case of the person who has feats to be A-OK down to -14 HP, but loses +2 to con when they hit 0. When they hit 0, that's like instantly taking their level in damage. At level 15, that con loss by itself would be enough to instantly kill them outright, making the feats completely useless. Especially if you're talking about eating 50+ HP at a swing in the first place.

[Rossebay]

That's very true, yes.

I'm only taking Diehard to get into stalwart/improved stalwart because DR is fun. Just, all the guides I was reading said that I NEEDED Raging Vitality, and I couldn't, for the life of me, figure out why.


And yes, Guigarci, you can rage while unconscious. Not sure what good it does ya, haha.

[grarrrg]

You can keep raging while unconcious... That just brings to mind images of the half-orc barbarian at night, frothing at the mouth, tossing and turning in his sleep mumbling

But can you sleep while on fire (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/archetypes/paizo---barbarian-archetypes/burn-rider-barbarian-archetype)?

(and yes, it is possible to get enough constant healing effects to not die from this)


And yes, Guigarci, you can rage while unconscious. Not sure what good it does ya, haha.
Thug 1: OK, they're asleep now, lets go looting!
Thug 2: I dunno man, that one guy is on fire, and seems kinda angry...
Thug 1: ...good point, lets go look for easier prey.

[gr8artist]

You can CONTINUE raging while unconcious, I believe. You would need to be raging when you fell asleep, but it might work.

Back on topic: What you're missing is the fact that Raging Vitality does not keep you awake. If reduced to -1 HP, you still fall unconcious. Fortunately for all Barbarians with a level ≥ 1/3 their Con score, the Raging Vitality feat does not make your rage end.

Without either: You are level 5, with a con score of 10 (+4 rage). You be ragin'. You get hurt, now you're at -1 HP. You fall unconcious, rage ends, and you lose 10 HP, putting you at -11 and first in line for the all-expense trip to Hades.

With Raging Vitality: You still level 5, with a con score of 10 (+6 rage). You be ragin' til you get hurt and dropped to -1 HP. You fall unconcious, but your adrenaline's still pumping. You don't get to do anything, but as long as you got rounds of rage to burn, you don't die. If you get healed, you stand up and are still raging, and aren't fatigued or anything.

With Diehard: You still level 5, with a con of 10 (+4 rage). Ragin' til you get dropped to -1 HP. You choose to keep fightin', and now you're stabilized, concious, and still raging. You get to keep fighting, but if you end your rage, you lose 10 HP and will die.

With both: Level 5, con of 10/16. Drop to -1, keep fighting (though staggered) because you're the bastard son of the honey badger and no one tells you when to lie down. You rage and are still concious, because you like Bruce Willis in that one movie. If you stop raging, you lose 15 HP and will die. While ragin' and fightin' while you should be sleepin' or dyin', you get knocked to -16 HP. Now you dead anyway, and nothing on heaven or earth can stop it.

Basically, Raging Vitality can keep you alive, but doesn't let you make use of the rounds of rage you spend while at negative health. THAT'S what Diehard does.

[Pex]

Per the Pathfinder rules, a barbarian normally stops raging when he falls unconscious. As a consequences he loses the +4 Constitution he got from the rage, including the hit points gained. Since they were not temporary hit points the barbarian immediate loses twice his level in hit points which can easily bring him to negatives below his now normal Constitution, i.e. dead. The ability to rage while unconscious means the barbarian doesn't lose the Constitution and thus doesn't practically immediately die. Raging Vitality becomes a feat tax, though at least the additional +2 to Constitution is a nice thing to have.

This rule has unfortunately been a major pain in the rear for a player in my group a number of times. Dropping to -1 hit points equals death. Even the DM got annoyed with the character constantly dieing because of the rule. He house ruled the hit points gained from the increase in Constitution are temporary hit points.

[TuggyNE]

The main thing you're missing is that as your levels go up, the range of HP that those feats will keep you up and swinging at becomes vanishingly tiny; it doesn't scale at anywhere near the speed you need it to. Also, consider the case of the person who has feats to be A-OK down to -14 HP, but loses +2 to con when they hit 0. When they hit 0, that's like instantly taking their level in damage. At level 15, that con loss by itself would be enough to instantly kill them outright, making the feats completely useless. Especially if you're talking about eating 50+ HP at a swing in the first place.

Why would a Barb with Diehard lose any Con at all when they hit 0? :smallconfused:

I mean, normally ragedeath is kind of a lame rules glitch in PF, but Diehard seems to avoid that.

[JusticeZero]

Why would a Barb with Diehard lose any Con at all when they hit 0? :smallconfused:

I mean, normally ragedeath is kind of a lame rules glitch in PF, but Diehard seems to avoid that.
Probably because I misread the explanation. I don't deal much with Barbarians. The later explanation nailed it. Still, that's two feats for a relatively small cushion of HP. Toughness surpasses it after a few levels.

[Spore]

Probably because I misread the explanation. I don't deal much with Barbarians. The later explanation nailed it. Still, that's two feats for a relatively small cushion of HP. Toughness surpasses it after a few levels.

Certain Barbarian builds loose HP like a promiscious woman looses her panties, that's why.