Pseudo-comprehensive list of skills (READ THE NON-SPOILERED PART OF THE OP!)

[enderlord99]

Assuming that a character is a single-classed Factotum, starts with 18 INT, and increases INT every four levels: at what point will they know all* skill tricks and have max ranks (level+3) in all* skills?

Assume standard 3.5 rules, aside from the existence of certain additional skills, as explained below, and the fact that all* languages are available via the Speak Language skill, but none (even common) are available through any other source.

*"All," in the context of this thread, only refers to ones that are mentioned at least once in any first party and/or licensed-third-party product for 3.0, 3.5, d20system, or Pathfinder; Paizo and WotC are both considered first-party for the purpose of this thread. Any location with at least one associated regional feat in any of the aforementioned editions is treated as having a corresponding version of knowledge (local.)

Doc_Maynot has a list of valid skills (and skill tricks) mentioned so far, for anyone who wants it It's in post #5 in this thread.

[OldTrees1]

8+Int
Int: 18+1 per 4th HD

Base skill points: 12 * (L+3)
Int skill points: If L+1 is divisible by 4 => (L+1)/4 = X
4*(X^2-X)/2 = (L^2+2L+1)/8 -4(L+1)/8 = (L^2-2L-3)/8

Places to spend:
(L+3) * Number of Skills + 2 * Number of Skill Tricks

Could someone give a count of Number of Skills & Number of Skill Tricks?

[Yorrin]

As much fun as it would be to math this out, there's a problem in the form of potentially near-infinite skills. Take, for example, Profession. Just trying to list out every profession in all of history past present and future would be a nightmare. Even limiting it to any given campaign setting would get ridiculous. Now do the same for Craft, with the same for every item ever made, with the possible limiter of every item ever made in your setting. Similar with Perform and to a lesser degree Knowledge.

[enderlord99]

As much fun as it would be to math this out, there's a problem in the form of potentially near-infinite skills. Take, for example, Profession. Just trying to list out every profession in all of history past present and future would be a nightmare. Even limiting it to any given campaign setting would get ridiculous. Now do the same for Craft, with the same for every item ever made, with the possible limiter of every item ever made in your setting. Similar with Perform and to a lesser degree Knowledge.

Could people (as a group effort) list them all (within the specified parameters) despite the difficulty? Pleeeeeaaase?

The number of sources considered valid for this thread is technically finite, it's just really big.

[Doc_Maynot]

I think just about covers all of the ones I know of.
EDIT: Added the Skill Tricks

Skills(74+):
Appraise
Autohynosis
Balance
Bluff
Climb
Concentration
Control Shape
Craft (Alchemy)
Craft (Armorsmithing)
Craft (Art)
Craft (Basket Weaving)
Craft (Bowmaking)
Craft (Gemcutting)
Craft (Jewelcrafting)
Craft (Locksmithing)
Craft (Sculpting)
Craft (Trapmaking)
Craft (Weaponsmithing)
Craft (*)
Decipher Script
Diplomacy
Disable Device
Disguise
Escape Artist
Forgery
Handle Animal
Handle Humanoid
Heal
Hide
Iajutsu Focus
Intimidate
Jump
Knowledge (Arcana)
Knowledge (architecture
and engineering)
Knowledge (dungeoneering)
Knowledge (forbidden lore)
Knowledge (gemology)
Knowledge (geography)
Knowledge (history)
Knowledge (local)
Knowledge (nature)
Knowledge (nobility
and royalty)
Knowledge (psionics)
Knowledge (religion)
Knowledge (the planes)
Listen
Lucid Dreaming
Martial Lore
Move Silently
Open Lock
Perform (*)
Perform (Act)
Perform (Comedy)
Perform (Dance)
Perform (Keyboard Instruments)
Perform (Oratory)
Perform (Percussion Instruments)
Perform (Sing)
Perform (String Instruments)
Perform (Wind Instruments)
Perform (Weapon Drill)
Profession (*)
Profession (Miner)
Profession (Sailor)
Psicraft
Ride
Search
Sense Motive
Sleight of Hand
Speak Language*
Spellcraft
Spot
Survival
Swim
Truespeak
Tumble
Use Magic Device
Use Psionic Device
Use Rope

Skill Tricks (42):
Acrobatic Backstab
Assume Quirk
Back on Your Feet
Clarity of Vision
Clever Improviser
Collector of Stories
Conceal Spellcasting
Corner Perch
Dismount Attack
Easy Escape
Escape Attack
Extreme Leap
False Theurgy
Group Fake-Out
Healing Hands
Hidden Blade
Leaping Climber
Listen to This
Magical Appraisal
Mosquito's Bite
Never Outnumbered
Nimble Charge
Nimble Stand
Opening Tap
Point it Out
Quick Escape
Quick Swimmer
Second Impression
Shrouded Dance
Slipping Past
Social Recovery
Speedy Ascent
Spot the Weak Point
Sudden Draw
Swift Concentration
Timely Misdirection
Tumbling Crawl
Twisted Charge
Up the Hill
Walk the Walls
Wall Jumper
Whip Climber

*List of Every Language (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?208167-Complete-List-of-Languages)

[Xefas]

As much fun as it would be to math this out, there's a problem in the form of potentially near-infinite skills. Take, for example, Profession. Just trying to list out every profession in all of history past present and future would be a nightmare. Even limiting it to any given campaign setting would get ridiculous. Now do the same for Craft, with the same for every item ever made, with the possible limiter of every item ever made in your setting. Similar with Perform and to a lesser degree Knowledge.

Alright, guys. Let's do this. Team effort.

I'll start.

Perform (11th Century Southeastern Cormyrian Arcano-Yodeling)
Profession (Fishgutter)
Knowledge (Modron Charcuterie)

[Yorrin]

List


Off the top of my head you're missing Control Shape and the one that lets you control the plane of dreams (Lucid Dreaming?). Other than the semi-infinite ones, of course.

[Doc_Maynot]

Off the top of my head you're missing Control Shape and the one that lets you control the plane of dreams (Lucid Dreaming?). Other than the semi-infinite ones, of course.

Thank you. I did have Lucid Dreaming in though.

[OldTrees1]

I count 42 Skill Tricks (84sp) in Complete Scoundrel
I count 31 PHB skills not counting skill categories or Speak Languages

It looks like it will take more than 150 levels.

Also my math in my previous post seems off.

[enderlord99]

Alright, guys. Let's do this. Team effort.

I'll start.

Perform (11th Century Southeastern Cormyrian Arcano-Yodeling)
Profession (Fishgutter)
Knowledge (Modron Charcuterie)

And what sourcebooks did you find those in?

[Werephilosopher]

Knowledge (Forbidden Lore) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/campaigns/sanity.htm#knowledgeForbiddenLoreNone) and Knowledge (Gemology) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625d). Although the way you gain ranks in the former is kind of funky.

[Doc_Maynot]

Thank you for the update, I also added Craft (Gemcutting) from the link.

[Gildedragon]

You are missing Martial Lore from ToB
also the SRD performs, some of which have musical instruments associated with it that provide bonuses and effects to bardic music:

Act
Comedy
Dance
Keyboard instruments
Oratory
Percussion instruments
String instruments
Wind instruments
Sing

Also Craft (poisonmaking)

[Doc_Maynot]

AH, I forgot Martial Lore!
And to be honest I was just being lazy with the performs. I'll update it now. Updated

[Gildedragon]

and there are 20 languages in the SRD (though max ranks would end up meaning what with speak language?)

Speak Language should probably be in Skill Tricks, just because its mechanics are more akin to them's

2 commons : Common and Undercommon
5 elemental : Auran, Aquan, Terran, Ignan, Sylvan
3 alighed: Infernal, Abyssal, Celestial
9 racial ones: Dwarven, Draconic, Elven, Giant, Gnome Goblin, Gnoll, Halfling, Orc
1: Druidic

Others that I can think of:

Diabolan Tail Language
Drow Sign Language

[Doc_Maynot]

Some classes do have it as a class skill though, Beguiler to name one of them. I'll list languages in another category.

[Werephilosopher]

Uh oh.... learning every language might take a bit more skill points than one would think.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?208167-Complete-List-of-Languages

[Doc_Maynot]

Thank you, and thank noparlpf for making that a bit easier.

[Gildedragon]

So I counted ~100 non-setting specific taking into account Gith is 2 languages
28 faerunian

[Coidzor]

Iajutsu Focus(Oriental Adventures) seems left out.

Fly is a skill in Pathfinder. Acrobatics, Linguistics, Perception, and Stealth are also Pathfinder skills though they double up with skills like Tumble/Balance, Forgery/Speak Language, Spot/Listen/Search, and Hide/Move Silently.

Use Magic Device vs. Use Psionic Device and Spellcraft vs. Psicraft have both likely been pointed out...

I believe in the Skull & Shackles AP from Paizo there's Perform: Chelish Opera or possibly just Perform: Opera.


Uh oh.... learning every language might take a bit more skill points than one would think.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?208167-Complete-List-of-Languages

Well, we already had to go into Epic in order to get the Int score necessary to get all skills at level+3. So it gives us a higher starting point than the skill tricks, since IIRC, the Skill tricks would have us starting at Factotum 83 or 84.

[Doc_Maynot]

I can't believe I missed THAT one too.

Not aware we were using Pathfinder stuff now for the list. Must have missed that change.


Use Magic Device vs. Use Psionic Device and Spellcraft vs. Psicraft have both likely been pointed out...


Hmm?

[Coidzor]

Oh, right. Craft: Gunsmithing or something similar due to the Gunslinger & its rules from Pathfinder. Or maybe it was Profession: Gunsmith?


Hmm?

I forgot where I was going with that either other than hedging against an offchance.

[Diovid]

So here's some I think are missed (source:http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?269836-Location-of-rules-for-Skills-in-3-5)

Craft (basketweaving, bookbinding, calligraphy, carpentry, cobbling, gemcutting, leatherworking, locksmithing, painting, pottery, sculpting, shipmaking, stonemasonry, weaving) [merely mentioned on PH70]

Craft (boat building) [Sto 84]

Craft (musical composition) [RS 131]

Craft (siege engine) [HB 94]

Craft (writing) [RS 131]

Truespeak [TM 195]

Profession (apothecary, boater, bookkeeper, brewer, cook, driver, farmer, fisher, guide, herbalist, herder, hunter, innkeeper, lumberjack, miller, porter, rancher, scribe, stablehand, tanner, teamster, woodcutter) [merely mentioned on PH80]

Profession (barrister) [Sh 132]

Profession (executioner) [BV 39]

Profession (siege engineer) [PH80, HB 95]


And some of these:


Profession (executioner): rules for using Execution Devices (BoVD 39).
Profession (teamster): avoid damaging potholes while driving a wagon with a DC 15 check (City 32)
Profession (various): join a guild (City 96)
Profession (sailor): 9 ranks required for Dread Pirate PrC (CAdv 39)
Profession (gambler): 5 ranks required for Fatespinner PrC (CAr 37)
Profession (astrologer): 6 ranks required for Sublme Chord PrC (CAr 60)
Profession (herbalism): 5 ranks for +1 affiliation score modifier for joining Guardians of the Green organization (CC 69)
Profession (sailor): make a check when piloting a vessel to avoid getting sucked into a Maelstrom (CD 168)
Profession (sailor): make a check when piloting a vessel to avoid getting sucked into a Waterspout (CD 188)
Profession (engineering): create the body of a Guardian Familiar with a DC16 check (CW 119-121)
Profession (cooking): spot (a particular) poison hidden in food with a DC20 check (DotU 94)
Profession (siege engineer): operate a catapult with a DC15 check (DMG 100)
Profession (various): run a business (DMG2 180)
Profession (sailor): make DC 15 check to traverse rough water (EoE 101)
Profession (sailor/boater): make a DC 18 check to avoid the Abyssian Whirlpool (FC1 111, 141)
Profession (herbalist): make a DC 25 check to get +2 inherent bonus to Wisdom after spending a week meditating in the Shedaklah (FC1 145)
Profession (herbalist): make a DC 15 check to locate material components for use with the Primitive Caster feat (Frost 49)
Profession (pilot/sailor): use various vehicles (Frost 81)
Profession (siege engineer): use aid another with DC 10 check to give crew chief +2 to attack with ballista or catapult (HoB 65)
Profession (siege engineer): aiming an indirect fire catapult, such as a trebuchet, scorpion, or mangonel (HoB 95)
Profession (siege engineer): 8 ranks required for Expert Siege Engineer feat (HoB 97)
Profession (mason): construct a juggernaut (MM2 133), Nimblewright (MM2 162), or Clay Half-Golem (MM2 212)
Profession (sailor): DC 15 check to avoid being swamped by a leviathan (MM2 140)
Profession (engineer): DC 20 check to construct a Runic Guardian (MM2 183)
Profession (silkmaker): DC 20 check to construct a web golem (MM3 74)
Profession (gardener): DC 20 check to make a topiary guardian (MM3 175)
Profession (courtier): High skill for a samurai to practice
Profession (sailor/miner/pilot): Use various vehicles (PlH 72)
Profession (herbalist): 10 ranks for +2 affiliation score modifier for joining Elves of the High Forest organization (PHB2 173)
Profession (sailor): 5 ranks for +2 affiliation score modifier for joining The Thunder Sail Argosy organization (PHB2 181)
Profession (teamster): chariot racing (RoD 9)
Profession (card gambler): play card games for money (RoD 9)
Profession (miner): dig a hole (RotD 98)
Profession (miner): DC 15 check to make an amalgam of red copper and steel to make spellflinging spears (RotD 126)
Profession (gambler): 9 ranks required for Luckstealer PrC (RotW 118)
Profession (sailor): use various vehicles (Sand 61, 104)
Profession (sailor): escape from a maelstrom (Storm 14)
Profession (sailor): sail in a strong wind (Storm 23), storm (Storm 24), to gain advantage in battle (Storm 26), perform special maneuvers (Storm 27), use a Gust of Wind to accelerate (Storm 29), or prevent sinking (Storm 32).
Profession (sailor): 8 ranks required for Legendary Captain PrC (Storm 56)
Profession (sailor): Misdirection class feature for Legendary Captains to replace bluff for doing sneaky things with your ship (Storm 57)
Profession (sailor): 4 ranks required for Scarlet Corsair PrC (Storm 65)
Profession (sailor): do lots of things with boats (Storm 87-88)
Profession (sailor): 7 ranks required for Great Captain feat (Storm 92)
Profession (sailor): 5 ranks required for Old Salt feat (Storm 93)
Profession (sailor): 4 ranks required for Sailor's Balance feat (Storm 93)
Profession (sailor): 2 ranks required for Ship's Mage (Storm 93)
Profession (sailor): DC 5 check to use a firespout weapon (Storm 104)
Profession (siege engineer): DC 10 check to clear a firespout and fill it's bellows, and a DC 15 check to prepare it to fire (Storm 104)
Profession (sailor): DC 15 check to determine number, direction, and range to ships, or particular details about the ships if in sight, when using the Detect Ship spell (Storm 115)
Profession (sailor): 8 ranks required to craft a Rod of the Legendary Mariner (Storm 131)
Profession (herbalist): DC 20+ check to gather plant-based metamagic components (variant rule, UA 140)
Profession (taxidermy): DC 15/20 check to harvest/preserve body parts for metamagic components (variant rule, UA 151)

[Angelalex242]

What about Craft Disturbing Mental Image?

...Wait, no that's a feat. ;)

[nedz]

You seem to be missing these. Many of them are 3.0

Alchemy
Animal Empathy
Gather Information
Innuendo
Intuit Direction
Knowledge (barbarian lore)
Knowledge (code of martial honor)
Knowledge (law)
Knowledge (Shadowlands)
Knowledge (spirits)
Knowledge (tactics)
Knowledge (War)
Knowledge (weaponry)
Pick Pocket
Read Lips
Scry
Truespeak
Tumble
Wilderness Lore

[Feint's End]

It looks like it will take more than 150 levels.

well assuming we have 100 skills (just a wild guess to show the levels we are dealing with) you would have to have 704 levels just to be able to put one rank in each skill.
To actually have max ranks in each it takes many, many, many more.

Edit: the formula should be an equation somewhere along the lines of

y×(x+3)=48+12×(x-1)+something

Y is the number of skills
X is the number of levels
Something is the growth in additional skillpoints

[ShurikVch]

Perform (Pantomime)

[Feint's End]

I just tried to find a mathematical solution but this problem is not easily solved. Somebody wants to write a computer program for this?
I think the problem isn't the number of skills here but rather to come up with the math.

[Gemini476]

At 21st level, and every three levels thereafter, you get an [Epic] feat.
That feat should possibly be Great Intelligence, so you get +1Int.
...Or just have every feat be Open Minded (CA), for 5 skill points a feat. I think that might be better.

Seriously, Max ranks in all skills? You'll need some seriously high intelligence to make that work, which is hard since INT=INT(0)+Lvl/4 and you get skill points for (Int-10)/2. Luckily there isn't an infinite amount of skills, but man.

[Feint's End]

Yeah I figured there are some ways to increase intelligence or get additional skillpoints but for the sake of our sanity let's just assume no Boni from items, feats etc etc. Just plain level up increases.

Still .... even without other parts to add the equation is horribly complex and it could actually take a computer program to solve the question.

[Chronos]

Quoth Gemini476:

That feat should possibly be Great Intelligence, so you get +1Int.
...Or just have every feat be Open Minded (CA), for 5 skill points a feat. I think that might be better.
Great Intelligence will give you +1 per level for every level after you take it, for every two feats you spend on it (or an average of +0.5 per level per feat). Open Minded is a flat +5. This means that as long as you have at least ten levels after you take the feat, Great Intelligence is better. Given that we're working with a level of several hundred at least, the scales are overwhelmingly tipped towards Great Intelligence. Of course, Nymph's Kiss is even better.

Is our factotum human?

EDIT: Oh, and for a mathematical formula: It's not exact, due to discrete issues and to ignoring skill tricks and languages, but a simple approximation is that your number of skill ranks will be equal to your level (plus 3) times your average intelligence, and since your intelligence is increasing linearly, your average intelligence will be equal to half of your max intelligence plus your starting intelligence. If S is the number of skills, P is the number of skill points needed, I is max Int mod, and L is level, then we have that

(1) P = (L+3)*S (points needed to max out all skills)
(2) I = 4 + L/8 (Int modifier starts at 4, and increases by 1 every 8 levels)
(3) P = (L+3)*(10+6+I)/2 (points earned are equal to 6+average Int mod times levels)
(4) P = (L+3)*(10+L/16) (combining (2) and (3) and simplifying)
(5) S = (10+L/16) (combining (1) and (4) and simplifying)
(6) L = 16*(S-10) (solving (5) for L)

[HalfQuart]

By my figuring, at level 1018 you'll have max skill ranks, assuming there are 75 different skills, you start with an 18 Int, and only gain increases in Int from level increases, and don't get skill points from anything but Int.

The only way to gain ground is by having more than 1 skill point/skill. So if there are 75 skills, and you're getting 8 skill points for your class, then you need to get 67 skill points from intelligence... well, 68, actually, since you need MORE than 1 skill point/skill, so you can start to back-fill the ones you aren't already at max in.

So that means you need a 146 Int to start gaining ground. If you start at 18 Int, and only get increases 1/4 levels, you need 146-18=128, 128*4 = 512 levels... just to get the intelligence needed to start gaining ground!

But at level 512, the max rank for 75 skills is 75x(512+3)=38,625 skill points.
At level 512, assuming no skill points besides class+Int, you'll only have 22,316 skill points.

I put it all into Excel and filled down, and came up with 1018 as the level where you'd have more skill points than the max skill ranks.

Not quite sure how to share the formulas from an Excel spreadsheet....

Level Base Int Int_Bonus 4 0 75 Diff
1 8 =18+ROUNDDOWN(A2/4,0) =$E$1+ROUNDDOWN(A2/8,0) =B2+D2 =F1+E2 =(3+A2)*$G$1 =G2-F2

So Column 1 just increments, from 1: 1,2,3,4,5,6....
Column 2 is just 8 all the way down: 8,8,8,8,8,8....
The other columns are just copied and pasted down; their formulas should update automatically. It's certainly not elegant, but you can pretty easily change the 75 to 100, and find that for 100 skills, you'd have to be level 1418. Adding in skill points from other sources would take a bit more effort.

[Feint's End]

Thanks for doing the math HalfQuart ... seems to be correct. Somewhere around 1400 for 100 skills was my guess too. Now all we have to do is counting the skills.

Why don't we just count skills with choices as a single skill?

[Doc_Maynot]

By my math it would seem to be earlier than 1018, if we are assuming 75 (minus Speak Language).



Level = x
(Level+3)=l (6+Int)=i Int=(4+Level/8) s=(# of Skills) t=(# of Skill tricks) L=(# of nonsecret, nonautomatic languages)



li = ls + 2t + L

li = ls + 2(42) + 112

li = ls + 84 + 112

li = ls + 196

li = 75l + 196

(x+3)(6+(4+x/8) = 75(x+3)+196

(x+3)(10+x/8) = 75x + 225 + 196

(x+3)(10+x/8) = 75x + 421

10(x+3) + x(x+3)/8 = 75x + 421

10x + 30 + (x^2 + 3x)/8 = 75x + 421

10x + (x^2)/8 + x(3/8) - 75 x = 391

(x^2)/8 - 65x + x(3/8) = 391

(x^2)/8 - 520x/8 + 3x/8 = 391

(x^2)/8 - 517x/8 = 391

Graphed Results Here (http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=x%5E2%2F8+-+517x%2F8+%3D+391)

Result: Level 523

[Vogonjeltz]

Skill tricks are limited to 1/2 your character level, so at least 84 levels to acquire all 42 tricks.

Separately, being able to approach max ranks means acquiring at least X+1 skill points a level, where X is the number of skills for which the maximum ranks continues to increase (ie not speak languages).

There may be an infinite number of perform/craft/profession possibilities. Which would make the task impossible.

So, let's just look at the non infinite skills, so you just need that number +1 of skill points a level to eventually max out those and the limited purchase skills.

[Feint's End]

By my math it would seem to be earlier than 1018, if we are assuming 75 (minus Speak Language).



Level = x
(Level+3)=l (6+Int)=i Int=(4+Level/8) s=(# of Skills) t=(# of Skill tricks) L=(# of nonsecret, nonautomatic languages)



li = ls + 2t + L

li = ls + 2(42) + 112

li = ls + 84 + 112

li = ls + 196

li = 75l + 196

(x+3)(6+(4+x/8) = 75(x+3)+196

(x+3)(10+x/8) = 75x + 225 + 196

(x+3)(10+x/8) = 75x + 421

10(x+3) + x(x+3)/8 = 75x + 421

10x + 30 + (x^2 + 3x)/8 = 75x + 421

10x + (x^2)/8 + x(3/8) - 75 x = 391

(x^2)/8 - 65x + x(3/8) = 391

(x^2)/8 - 520x/8 + 3x/8 = 391

(x^2)/8 - 517x/8 = 391

Graphed Results Here (http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=x%5E2%2F8+-+517x%2F8+%3D+391)

Result: Level 523


I don't want to go through the whole thing but you made the mistake of assuming linear progression which is not right since you don't get 1/8 more skillpoint per level but rather the amount increases every 8th level by 1. In other words you don't get 12,125 skillpoints at level 2.


edit: as a general idea the level needed will always be around:
(2 x (number of skills - number of skills which can be maxed right away) x 8) + (number of skilltricks x 2)

[Doc_Maynot]

I don't want to go through the whole thing but you made the mistake of assuming linear progression which is not right since you don't get 1/8 more skillpoint per level but rather the amount increases every 8th level by 1. In other words you don't get 12,125 skillpoints at level 2.

AH, I knew I ****ed something up for the equation to look so simple.

[Chronos]

Quoth HalfQuart:

By my figuring, at level 1018 you'll have max skill ranks, assuming there are 75 different skills, you start with an 18 Int, and only gain increases in Int from level increases, and don't get skill points from anything but Int.
...
It's certainly not elegant, but you can pretty easily change the 75 to 100, and find that for 100 skills, you'd have to be level 1418.
For comparison, my approximate formula would give level 1040 for 75 skills, or level 1440 for 100 skills, which agrees pretty closely.

To account for skill tricks and languages, we need to keep going past where we're maxing out all regular skills, until we start getting surplus skill points, and spend those on the tricks and languages. The number of surplus skill points would be approximately equal to the square of the number of surplus levels, divided by 16, which means that the number of surplus levels needed would be L = sqrt(T)*4, where T is the number of points needed for tricks and languages. Assuming 42 skill tricks and 88 languages, this means 53 surplus levels are needed.

[OldTrees1]

For reference:
Skill points gained by 6+Int Mod (Int Mod = 4 + 1 per 8th HD) at 999th level (right before a stat mod gain)

Linear component: (L[999]+3) * (6 + base Int Mod[4]) = 10,020
Quadratic component: 4 * (L[999]-7)/8 * (L[999]+1)/8 = 62,000
Levels are clumped into sets of 8 ("0th"-7th, 8th-15th, 16th-23rd, ...)
Each clump produces 8 times the clump number (starting at 0)
999 is the end of the 125th((999+1)/8) clump so it has a clump number of 124.
Summation from 0 to 124 = Summation from 1 to 124 = (1/2) * (124) * (124 + 1) = 7750
8 * (1/2) * (clump number) * (clump number + 1) = 8 * 7750 = 62,000
4 * ((L+1)/8 - 1) * ((L+1)/8) = 62,000
4 * ((L-7)/8) * ((L+1)/8) = 62,000
(1/16) * (L-7) * (L+1) = 62,000
Skill points gained through 999th level = 72,020

Skill point formula for L such that (L+1 divisible by 8) is
(L+3) * 10 + (1/16) * (L-7) * (L+1)
= (1/16) * (L^2 + 154L + 473)





Level
Skill Points
Skill cost(75 skills)


999
72020
75150


1007
73100
75750


1015
74188
76350


1023
75284
76950


1031
76388
77550


1039
77500
78150


1047
78620
78750


1055
79748
79350


1063
80884
79950

[Feint's End]

The formula is wrong too -> we are not looking at a regular function because the number doesn't increase by 1/8 per level .... you do not get 12.125 skill points at level 2.


A formula that could work (it's one off from what the only person using excel had got so far ... This is due to some minor inaccuracies or because the excel calculation just shows the number of level ups necessary as opposed to level necessary)

L= level necessary
A=number of skills

L=(2A-23)/2 +- 4 × sqrt(493-89+4A^2)

You can try it and will see it works. 75 is 1019 ... 100 is 1419.

As for how the calculation is calculated ... I don't want to type it all down here but let's just say it's not easy.


Edit: HalfQuart if you see this could you run some tests and see how it plays out?

Edit 2: just realised that HalfQuart as well as me both calculated with 8 points from class but that can be changed if necessary. We should see if we find a more general applicable solution.

1040 might not be far off but the calculations some of the posters above are using are still somewhat too inaccurate.

[OldTrees1]

the calculations some of the posters above are using are still somewhat too inaccurate.

Would you double check my math? The formula I used assumes you are looking at a level such that level+1 is divisible by 8.

[Coidzor]

well assuming we have 100 skills (just a wild guess to show the levels we are dealing with) you would have to have 704 levels just to be able to put one rank in each skill.
To actually have max ranks in each it takes many, many, many more.

Edit: the formula should be an equation somewhere along the lines of

y×(x+3)=48+12×(x-1)+something

Y is the number of skills
X is the number of levels
Something is the growth in additional skillpoints

Since it starts with 10 skilpoints per level(6 from Factotum, 4 from Int 18) and it needs 100 per level just to stop falling behind every level up, the Int modifier needs to go up by 90(to go from 4 to 94) in order to get 100 skill points per level, no? Since Int score goes up by 1 every 4 levels but Int modifier only increases every 8 levels, that seems like it'd be level 720 for 100 skill points each level. 90*8 = 720. Or 728 to start actually catching up to the cap. I guess 722(720 level + 3 for skill rank cap - 1 for raising the "last" skill from 0 to 1) is the gap between skill ranks invested in each skill & skill rank cap which has to be closed by the last skill to be invested in, and it decreases by 8 each time until we get to the original 10 max invested skills?

Assuming that the character starts off by fully investing in 10 skills and then adds a new skill to receive 1 skill point per level each time their Int mod increases by 1. So at level 8 it'd have 10 skills at skill cap of 11 & 1 skill at 1; at level 16 it'd have 10 skills at skill cap of 19, 1 skill at 9, and 1 skill at 1; and at level 24 it'd have 10 skills at skill cap of 27, 1 skill at 17, 1 skill at 9, and 1 skill at 1. So the first new skill is 10 behind and then the rest are each 8 behind the one acquired before it. Can't for the life of me recall how you'd model that though, whoops. 10+8+8*(skill #-11) on until skill # 100 for the total skill point gap, I think. Not that it's likely particularly worthwhile since we just need to get the total number of skillpoints and the total number of skill points needed.

And then there's 2*42 = 84 skilpoints reserved for skill tricks. 100 - 4 (bonus languages at 1st level for 18 Int) for languages if we're not maxing Speak Language but just taking enough ranks to know every language. So that's 180 skill points that need to be gained on top of hitting the max ranks cap.

My main issue last night when I took a stab at this was that I couldn't remember or search out how to take into account the skillpoints one had already accumulated without having to brute force it with 1 level of 40 skillpoints then 6 levels of 10 skillpoints, then 8 of 11, 8 of 12, and so on. It seems fairly clear that one needs 400 skillpoints at 1st level for the skills and the number needed increases by 100 each time one levels(since skill tricks and languages are static).

Although the Pathfinder specific skills may actually make things a bit different, depending upon adjudication, since their skill rank cap would be equal to level rather than level + 3, so it might just be something like 95 skills based on 3.5 & 5 skills based on pathfinder for 95*4+95(delta x) + 180 + 5*(x) = y, where y = skill points needed at any given level, & x = level. Although allowing both Linguistics and Speak Language would allow for knocking out the languages in less levels but for the same number of skillpoints, but that's not really relevant given the sheer number of levels we need anyway.

[Feint's End]

Would you double check my math? The formula I used assumes you are looking at a level such that level+1 is divisible by 8.

The problem isn't that. The problem is that the formula is much more complex than just a linear one. Think of it like stairs. For the first 7 levels you are on one step then for 8 on the next step and then for 8 on the next and so on.

You get 10 skillpoints for 7 levels, 11 for 8, 12 for 8 .... and so forth. This makes calculating very, very hard because not only is the increase changing but it does so in steps instead of lineary growing. For example it would be much easier if you could say that you get 12.125 at level 1 ... 12.25 at level 2 .... and 13 at level 8. This is not the case though so we need a function that not only measures the higher increases but takes into account that it increases flat every 8 levels and not linear.


edit: @Coidzor ... This is an old formula and absolutely incorrect. I should probably edit it out.

[OldTrees1]

The problem isn't that. The problem is that the formula is much more complex than just a linear one. Think of it like stairs. For the first 7 levels you are on one step then for 8 on the next step and then for 8 on the next and so on.

You get 10 skillpoints for 7 levels, 11 for 8, 12 for 8 .... and so forth. This makes calculating very, very hard because not only is the increase changing but it does so in steps instead of lineary growing. For example it would be much easier if you could say that you get 12.125 at level 1 ... 12.25 at level 2 .... and 13 at level 8. This is not the case though so we need a function that not only measures the higher increases but takes into account that it increases flat every 8 levels and not linear.

Yeah, I know that it is like stairs. That is why I clumped levels into clumps of 8 and then used the principle of triangle numbers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangular_number) to sum the clumps together. This clumping process is how I do not assume fractional skill points and why it only uses levels such that level+1 is divisible by 8.

So did you find any errors or does it work for levels 7+8n (n being an integer)?

Sidenote: It can be used to find other levels too but it is more complex.
1) Take the level [say 1050]
2) Check if Level + 1 is divisible by 8 [1051 is not divisible]
3) Find X1 = 8 * ( (Level + 1)/8 round down) - 1 [1047]
F(Level) = F(X1) + (Level - X1) * (F(8 + X1) - F(X1) / 8)
//This equation works since each 8 level step is a line segment.
F(1050) = F(1047) + (1050 - 1047) * (F(1055) - F(1047) / 8)
F(1050) = 78620 + (3) * (79748 - 78620) / 8
F(1050) = 78620 + (3) * (79748 - 78620) / 8
F(1050) = 78620 + (3) * (1128) /8
F(1050) = 78620 + (3) * 141
F(1050) = 78620 + 423
F(1050) = 79043

So if the equation is correct for levels such that level+1 is divisible by 8, then I can find the correct level in 3 steps if given the constants (number of skills, number of skill tricks, and number of languages)

[Coidzor]

The problem isn't that. The problem is that the formula is much more complex than just a linear one. Think of it like stairs. For the first 7 levels you are on one step then for 8 on the next step and then for 8 on the next and so on.

You get 10 skillpoints for 7 levels, 11 for 8, 12 for 8 .... and so forth. This makes calculating very, very hard because not only is the increase changing but it does so in steps instead of lineary growing. For example it would be much easier if you could say that you get 12.125 at level 1 ... 12.25 at level 2 .... and 13 at level 8. This is not the case though so we need a function that not only measures the higher increases but takes into account that it increases flat every 8 levels and not linear.

That means calculus or programming it into a graphing calculator so it brute forces for us, right?

...I should really know by now how to use a computer in lieu of a programmable calculator by now, come to think of it... :smallredface:


edit: @Coidzor ... This is an old formula and absolutely incorrect. I should probably edit it out.

Yeah, sorry, I just started going on again. x.x

[Feint's End]

So if the equation is correct for levels such that level+1 is divisible by 8, then I can find the correct level in 3 steps if given the constants (number of skills, number of skill tricks, and number of languages)

I'll look into it tomorrow since I'm really deadtired now. Looks fine to me but I don't really get why you calculate this way because the Level is what we want to calculate.

[OldTrees1]

I'll look into it tomorrow since I'm really deadtired now. Looks fine to me but I don't really get why you calculate this way because the Level is what we want to calculate.

It is half the equation needed to answer the question.
Full equation: Skill points acquired based on level >= Skill points needed to max out based on level
Solve for level.

Since the right hand side is simple ((L+3)*C1 + C2) it seemed wise to focus on the left side first.

[Gildedragon]

So my shot at the math

We need first of all get to a point where 8+int mod (presuming human with nymph's kiss) equals the total of non discrete skills (ignoring skill tricks and languages for now)
We subtract 45 (4*(4int mod+7)+1) from the total of skills. Each one of the remaining skills presents 16 levels needed to catch up to the skill=level
After that point there are a lot of remaining skillpoints, equal to skills-45
One uses these skills to fill in the +3 that are missing to all skills

[Coidzor]

So my shot at the math

We need first of all get to a point where 8+int mod (presuming human with nymph's kiss) equals the total of non discrete skills (ignoring skill tricks and languages for now)
We subtract 45 (4*(4int mod+7)+1) from the total of skills. Each one of the remaining skills presents 16 levels needed to catch up to the skill=level
After that point there are a lot of remaining skillpoints, equal to skills-45
One uses these skills to fill in the +3 that are missing to all skills

A common error here seems to be assuming 8+int skill points for Factotum when Factotum gets 6+int skill points from everything I have seen & can recall. :smallconfused:

[Gildedragon]

By my count there are 94 skills that scale

6+1 for human+1 for nymph's kiss (which isn't multiplied at 1st level)

So, since this guy's gonna be going into epic
I will presume an Old Phrenic Deep Athasian Human for a +8 to int and a base int of 18
26 int at lvl one, modifier of +8
it means 61 skillpoints at level 1 and 33 skills that have no skillpoints invested
to get all 94 skills to skills=lvl we are looking at 528 levels
matters are somewhat expedited by the inherent +4 to int gotten at 16 level (trading in all 13th-15th level equivalent treasure for one 21st level equivalent item: a tome of clear thought +4) not too sure what the cascading effect of accelerating skillpoint acquisition by inherent bonuses is... so perhaps we can set that +4 off to the side to aid in the gain of languages...
an int modifier of +8 means that this human starts knowing 9 of the 128 counted languages, meaning 119, let's round it to 120, so by level 76 they have all languages, and at 97 they have used that +4 to int to learn all the skill tricks.
which leaves them with 141 levels to add the +3 to all skills to get them to maximum skillpointage.
so lvl 528 is an upper bound.

[Gemini476]

Alright, here's what I've got. I assume that every single epic feat is Great Intelligence, just because.
In Excel:

=18+FLOOR(A2/4,1)+IF(A2=21,1,IF(A2>21,FLOOR((A2-21)/3+1,1)))
A2 is the level in this case.

So how many skills are there, anyway? I have a table set up that'll let me check for any number of skills - 75 skills can be maxed at level 473, for instance, where you have an extra 50 skill points to spend on whatever. Level 644 gives you 100 skills +24 skill points.

So how many skills are there, anyway? And should I assume that every non-epic feat is Open Minded for +5 skill points/feat? (+10 first level, +5 every three levels).

[Gemini476]

Alright. Assuming Human and Nymph Kissed for 8+Int skill points/level, (7+Int)*4+1 at level 1.
Also, assume 18 int to start with and for feats to be:
Human bonus feat: Nymph-Kissed
Level 1-18: 7*Open Minded (+5 Skill Points/feat)
Level 21+: Great Intelligence (+1 Int)

Also, assume that there are 42 Skill Tricks (84 points to buy) and 116 languages (starting with 5). Also 94 skills.

In other words:
Intelligence starts at 18, increases by 1 every four levels and by 1 at 21 and every three levels thereafter.
Skill points gained each level are ((Int-10)/2+7, rounded down)*4 at first level, (Int-10)/2+8, rounded down, on all levels thereafter. +5 at levels 1, 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, and 18.
The necessary amount of skill points is 94*(3+Level)+84+111.

You have enough skill points at level 591, when you have amassed 56,082 skill points out of 56,031 necessary.

[Gildedragon]

Doesn't the 50ish point difference mean you can drop the Open Minded feats?
that's 35 skillpoints that end up making no difference

also i did a bad in my math...
need to fix


So MKII

A minimum int mod of 86 is needed to be putting 1 skillpoint into every skill every level
that is, without feats or items to boost int, assuming a starting int of 26, level 624, as one skillpoint is gained every 8 levels.
But past level 20 half an intmod is gained every 3 levels in addition to every 4 levels.
(+1 at 20, 21)
After level 24 (when feats and level bonuses sync up) we advance the progression from 1intmod:8 levels to 7intmod:24 levels
which gets us our 86 int mod at some point between levels 273-6...
But that leaves us to fill out the gaps under each skill...

[HalfQuart]

But past level 20 half an intmod is gained every 3 levels in addition to every 4 levels.
(+1 at 20, 21)
Wait, I have zero experience with epic characters; are you saying that epic characters get stat bumps more often than every 4th level? Or is this with the feat that gives +1 to an attribute, and that's why you say every 3 levels? That makes sense.

[Gildedragon]

that is the feat.

[Gemini476]

Wait, I have zero experience with epic characters; are you saying that epic characters get stat bumps more often than every 4th level? Or is this with the feat that gives +1 to an attribute, and that's why you say every 3 levels? That makes sense.

Yeah, that's with taking Great Intelligence for every single Epic feat.

And yeah, it turns out that Open Minded is rather useless. Whoops!

And not taking Nymph-Kissed bumps it up seven levels to level 598.

And not taking Great Intelligence at all boost it up to level 1340!

[OldTrees1]

Why are we talking about Nymph's Kiss and Great Intelligence? The OP only mentioned increases every 4 HD and it seems foolish to spend every resource on gaining skill points at the cost of other options.

[Gildedragon]

Because Nymph's kiss is one of the few ways to get a whole extra skillpoint every level.
and great intelligence is v. useful because it about doubles the rate of completion. As is we are looking at the mid 500's to fully complete all skills.

Things get somewhat easier if we allow for PF style rules that magic item int bonuses grant skillranks...
but not much

Things would also get easier if we figured out the functional caps of skills.
167 for balance: for balancing on a slippery, sloped, obstructed cloud at full speed
120 for climb: a perfectly smooth wall or ceiling at full speed
120++ in escape artist: go through a wall of force, defeat a 110 use rope check
100 for heal
100 for swim
the rest get opposed by something, or have no effective cap, or have soft caps (like use rope at 80)

[Yanisa]

So I am interrupting your crafty math to show off the fact I was bored and made a List of All Skills (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1pwhDF_ZbRZHbS4xeZ9rFRY1Qfqv61ybhAVKUPbPdcio/edit?usp=sharing) mentioned here. (Second tab)
By my count that 136 skills, although some are dubious, but there are at least 119 3.5 skills mentioned so far that I am 100% sure of.

I do like some feedback, whether I missed doubles, are there more skills and what to do with the couple of dubious ones? Maybe I should start a new thread so you guys can continue the math? Just let me know.

[Gemini476]

So I am interrupting your crafty math to show off the fact I was bored and made a List of All Skills (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1pwhDF_ZbRZHbS4xeZ9rFRY1Qfqv61ybhAVKUPbPdcio/edit?usp=sharing) mentioned here. (Second tab)
By my count that 136 skills, although some are dubious, but there are at least 119 3.5 skills mentioned so far that I am 100% sure of.

I do like some feedback, whether I missed doubles, are there more skills and what to do with the couple of dubious ones? Maybe I should start a new thread so you guys can continue the math? Just let me know.

136 skills, huh?
Add 42 skill tricks at 2 a pop and 111 languages to that. (You get 5 to start.)

So I redid it so that it's just 7+Int skill points with Int starting at 18 and increasing by one every four hit dice,

You get enough points at level 2011, when you have 274,158 out of 274,099 skill points.

[Doc_Maynot]

136 skills, huh?
Add 42 skill tricks at 2 a pop and 111 languages to that. (You get 5 to start.)

So I redid it so that it's just 7+Int skill points with Int starting at 18 and increasing by one every four hit dice,

You get enough points at level 2011, when you have 274,158 out of 274,099 skill points.

Did you account for the epic Intelligence boosting feat, and open minded as every non-epic feat?

[Gildedragon]

You have some doubles:
Astrologer is the same thing as an astrologist
Herbalism as herbalist
Sailor and Miner are repeated in (sailor/miner)
Scribe is doubled as well
As is innkeeper


@Doc: there are so few non epic feats that Open Minded doesn't make a dent in the skill ranks needed

[Yanisa]

You have some doubles:
Astrologer is the same thing as an astrologist
Herbalism as herbalist

Yeah I noticed it before but forgot. It odd when they different sources use similar wording, but not the exact same. By hard RAW they are two different professions but any DM with common sense would treat hem as one... I am unsure how to handle them, I might give them a dubious status, or separate them by slash. (Unlike the skills currently separate by a slash)

Thanks for pointing out the others. Most of the doubles are from copy pasting the two list I found here. Currently also adding a bunch from the DMGII so more doubles might appear for a while. Expect an edit soon for a new total. :smalltongue:

And there is the edit.
Current list has 134 skills... excluding a list of 77 profession (a lot already in the main list) found in the DMG II. But those are dubious as they are not described as skills, but as real professions, rolled on tables to fill guilds with random NPCs... If we do allow them then we get get to have points in profession: Criminal or profession Dungsweeper. :smalltongue:

For now I keep that list outside the main list, easier that way.

[nedz]

Have you guys factored in using WBL to buy Int boost items and inherent boosters ?

[Gildedragon]

I did (roughly) for the ToCT: Level 16 for a +4

[OldTrees1]

So I am interrupting your crafty math to show off the fact I was bored and made a List of All Skills (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1pwhDF_ZbRZHbS4xeZ9rFRY1Qfqv61ybhAVKUPbPdcio/edit?usp=sharing) mentioned here. (Second tab)
By my count that 136 skills, although some are dubious, but there are at least 119 3.5 skills mentioned so far that I am 100% sure of.

I do like some feedback, whether I missed doubles, are there more skills and what to do with the couple of dubious ones? Maybe I should start a new thread so you guys can continue the math? Just let me know.

Thank you.
133 skills you can have max ranks in (Knowledge Forbidden Knowledge has specialrules)
Speak Languages for 111 languages (5 automatic + 106 skill points)
42 Skill Tricks for 84 skill points

Skill cost based on level = 133(L+3) + 106 + 84 = 133L + 589

Now I am going with the minimum assumptions (Factotum, 18 Int +1 every 4th HD)
Step 1: Rough estimate
(1/16) * (L^2 + 154L + 473) = 133L + 589 = (1/16) * (2128L + 9424)
(1/16) * (L^2 - 1974L - 8951) = 0
L = 1978.5

Step 2: Check range
(X1 + 1)/8 = (1978.5 + 1) /8 round down
X1 = 1975
LevelAcquiredCost
1975262828263264
1983264884264328
Range checks out.

Step 3: Find level
Skill point gain per level over the level range is (F(1983) - F(1975))/8 = 257
LevelAcquiredCost
1975262828263264
1976263085263397
1977263342263530
1978263599263663
1979263856263796
At level 1979 our 263856 Skill Points Acquired pass out Skill Point Cost of 263796 by 60 skill points