How do you see hiding opponents?

[Renen]

Lets imagine someone specced to hide.
So dark stalker, hide in plain sight, probably flyby attack for repositioning. And hide check nearing triple digits.
How would you spot them?
Aside from the obvious "throw flower", which might still not work cuz flight

[Zanos]

Abuse whatever they're abusing to get your spot check into the triple digits?

Failing that, both mindsight and lifesense are not specified by Darkstalker, and therefore pierce it. (Greater)Arcane Sight works also, assuming they are using any magic at all.

EDIT:
Mindsight is a feat in Lords of Madness, requires telepathy, and allows you to automatically detect any non-mindless creature within the range of your telepathy, as well as their type and intelligence score.

Lifesense is a feat in Libris Mortis, requires 13 Cha and --Cha, and causes all living creatures to give off light to you.

[OldTrees1]

Use one of the OP sense:
Lifesense, Mindsight or Touchsight

Each of these trumps Darkstalker and does not allow a Hide check.


Sometimes Detect _____ spells also work but they have limited range and are time intensive

[Renen]

Hmm... sadly most of those require previous planning. (Like mindbender level)

And I do wonder, even if you mindsight and life sence them, dont you only know their square? (Aka still cant SEE them)

And touchsight is sooo rare

[OldTrees1]

Hmm... sadly most of those require previous planning. (Like mindbender level)

And I do wonder, even if you mindsight and life sence them, dont you only know their square? (Aka still cant SEE them)

And touchsight is sooo rare

Correct.

I take it this is a rush job then? If so then you should be less concerned about seeing them as you are concerned with knowing their location/general location. Start by reducing the area they can move in while making the remaining squares have an unequal preference to the sneak.

During their turn they are likely less hidden then on your turn. Take advantage of this with readied actions, contingencies and triggered traps.

[Renen]

Not a rush job.
Just looking for a way that doesnt require a character built around.

[OldTrees1]

Not a rush job.
Just looking for a way that doesnt require a character built around.

Then battlefield manipulation and triggered responses are your best bet.

[Zanos]

Any 5th level wiz/sorcerer can throw out an arcane sight. It picks up magic items as well, remember.

[Khedrac]

A lot also depends on what's happening. If we are not in combat so have a few rounds then:

Cast Detect Thoughts, study areas, and define each area as a 10' by 10' by 10' cube.*
After studying the correct area, cast Glitterdust to fill the area. The Hide check just took a -40 penalty.

*Or use bigger areas then binary chop or similar them to find which10' cube needs the glitterdust.

[Angelalex242]

Is alignment blocked?

Cause your friendly neighborhood paladin scanning with detect evil will find him if he's evil.

[SinsI]

Any 5th level wiz/sorcerer can throw out an arcane sight. It picks up magic items as well, remember.
Why would it work? Just because you see wider spectrum doesn't mean you see through obstacles - and Hide means that the opponent always has something between you and him, concealing him. Hide is not Invisibility - it is better.

[tyckspoon]

Why would it work? Just because you see wider spectrum doesn't mean you see through obstacles - and Hide means that the opponent always has something between you and him, concealing him. Hide is not Invisibility - it is better.

Nah, he most likely doesn't have anything blocking actual direct line of sight (he probably has concealment, but that's usually not enough to stop you from seeing somebody.) That's what Hide In Plain Sight is for, and it's why it's a problem at all - if the theoretical Hider to be Spotted didn't have that, the simple solution is to just maintain an area of clear space around yourself. As soon as he steps into open ground (or flies into open space) he becomes un-Hidden regardless of how good his Hide check is.

[Curmudgeon]

Nystul's Magic Aura (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicAura.htm) means there's no reason for the hidden creature's magic items to be detectable. Someone stupid enough to overlook such an obvious problem deserves to get found.

Nondetection on top of an awesome Hide check covers a lot of the gaps. Regardless of actual distance, you won't be in range of any Telepathy (or Mindsight) if your mind can't be located.

[TuggyNE]

Nondetection on top of an awesome Hide check covers a lot of the gaps. Regardless of actual distance, you won't be in range of any Telepathy (or Mindsight) if your mind can't be located.

Are Mindsight, or e.g. Mindbender's/Telepath 5's telepathy, actually divinations, though? And are they the right sort of divination?


The warded creature or object becomes difficult to detect by divination spells such as clairaudience/clairvoyance, locate object, and detect spells.

The MM listing, which the Telepath ACF at least references, makes no note of being a divination effect. And I find the idea that telepathy per se is similar to divinations designed to detect things rather suspect.

[Darrin]

Helping hand or Messenger Arrow (Ghostwalk Web Enhancement) can tell you which square, then Torchbug Paste (Complete Scoundrel) can negate the concealment.

[EDIT]Those aren't divinations, either, so they get around mind blank, sequester, and whatnot.

[Vogonjeltz]

Lets imagine someone specced to hide.
So dark stalker, hide in plain sight, probably flyby attack for repositioning. And hide check nearing triple digits.
How would you spot them?
Aside from the obvious "throw flower", which might still not work cuz flight

It depends. What is being used to supply the cover or concealment (ranger hips)?

If it's cover, walk around or destroy the cover.

If it's concealment, need a means of breaking that (assuming it's magical), or light (if it's just shadows), or to withdraw to somewhere that doesn't have that concealment.

I would have just said scent and called it a day, but darkstalker is somewhat problematic.

[Curmudgeon]

Rary's Telepathic Bond (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/telepathicBond.htm) is a Divination spell, as are Lesser Telepathic Bond (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/spells/telepathicBondLesser.htm) and Interplanar Telepathic Bond (Spell Compendium). So is Telepathy Tap (Book of Exalted Deeds). Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesPrivateSanctum.htm) blocks Divination spells and telepathic communication. So my attempt to screen against telepathy via Nondetection will handle 100% of the telepathy effects obtained via spells; however, that's clearly not good enough.

Mind Blank will do the job, but that's a much higher level spell. :smallannoyed:

[SinsI]

Nah, he most likely doesn't have anything blocking actual direct line of sight (he probably has concealment, but that's usually not enough to stop you from seeing somebody.) That's what Hide In Plain Sight is for, and it's why it's a problem at all - if the theoretical Hider to be Spotted didn't have that, the simple solution is to just maintain an area of clear space around yourself. As soon as he steps into open ground (or flies into open space) he becomes un-Hidden regardless of how good his Hide check is.

In D&D terms "usually not enough to stop you from seeing somebody" means that you get a Spot check, opposed by his Hide check.

And "area of clear space around yourself" doesn't necessarily stop him from being hidden - he can have some kind of camouflage that prevents you from noticing him even in that open space. Think of that camouflage as "non-magical cloak of invisibility".

The most Arcane Sight can give you is a bonus to your Spot check.

[Chronos]

Get a bunch of friends together (preferably, hundreds of them) and cast Linked Perception (PHB2).

Oh, and if you're willing to spend feats on it, nobody's yet mentioned Nemesis, from BoED, which lets you auto-detect a favored enemy.

EDIT: Oh, and Curmudgeon, Nondetection won't stop 100% of telepathy spells. It can be overcome with a fairly easy caster level check (certainly easier than beating a triple-digit opposed skill check).

[Piggy Knowles]

I'm fond of Deathwatch as a nice way to tell when someone is hiding in your general vicinity. It's low level and it has a decent duration, and it detects undead creatures, living creatures and constructs alike. As a necromancy spell, it isn't blocked by things like Nondetection or Mind Blank. It won't allow you to pinpoint your foe, but works well when combined with other methods such as Glitterdust.

[Darkweave31]

If I were a wizard and my divination spells were being trumped by an opponent I couldn't see I'd go with the battlefield control approach to restrict their movement and force them to make a mistake, or the full defense approach and just become immune to any attack they could throw.

Cast superior invisibility, now unless they have access to true sight they can't see you.
Cast invisible spell solid fog to slow them down and catch them out in the open.
Even a regular solid fog placed above you can prevent attacks from above, making the only avenue for attack along the ground.
Mystic shield + ghostform to make it impossible to harm you with physical attacks.
Invisible Prismatic Sphere/wall... all you hear is "bzzt"
Area of effect spells like black tentacles if you can narrow down the area
Wall spells to limit movement
Illusions like mirage arcana
Scatter leaflets with explosive runes on them, when one explodes you know where to target
Daylight can leave no shadowy areas to hide in, preventing some variations of Hide in Plain Sight from working
Control Wind could ground any flying opponent whether or not you can see them

Basically one of the dozens of ways wizards have of fighting indirectly.

If you're not a wizard... options become much more limited.

[OldTrees1]

It depends. What is being used to supply the cover or concealment (ranger hips)?

If it's cover, walk around or destroy the cover.

If it's concealment, need a means of breaking that (assuming it's magical), or light (if it's just shadows), or to withdraw to somewhere that doesn't have that concealment.

I would have just said scent and called it a day, but darkstalker is somewhat problematic.

It might be a Dark Creature template Hide in Plain Sight. If from the right book, there is no terrain/light requirement for the HiPS.



@OP
Different characters would respond with different tools but fighting an undetectable foe* always covers the same steps.

Step 1: Reduce the battlefield
Tree Feather tokens block 10ft by 10ft (by 60ft) areas (with a canopy of 40ft radius) [400gp each]
Step 2: Biasing the battlefield
Decanter of Endless Water can be used to flood a section of the area (30 gallons per round) [9000gp]

By now you should have a small (35ft radius or less) enclosed canopied glade that is divided into a growing pool and shrinking dry land. Now it is time to fight.

Step 3: Use the largest attack that does not hurt you. Say Dust of Sneezing and Choking [2400gp each] in 20ft bursts that do not include your square.

*this foe is detectable but let's look at alternative methods of defeating it

[TuggyNE]

Rary's Telepathic Bond (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/telepathicBond.htm) is a Divination spell, as are Lesser Telepathic Bond (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/spells/telepathicBondLesser.htm) and Interplanar Telepathic Bond (Spell Compendium). So is Telepathy Tap (Book of Exalted Deeds). Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesPrivateSanctum.htm) blocks Divination spells and telepathic communication. So my attempt to screen against telepathy via Nondetection will handle 100% of the telepathy effects obtained via spells; however, that's clearly not good enough.

Assuming those spells are considered sufficiently similar to detect evil, clairaudience, and so forth, yes. (I am not convinced of this, but it's largely a moot point.)

And since no psionic means of gaining telepathy seem to be at all divinatory, the gap is even larger than one might assume. That is, the Telepathy discipline maps to Enchantment, not Divination. (Which, in turn, makes a certain argument for distinguishing between Divinations that are similar to clairaudience, which is very similar to powers in the Clairsentience discipline, and Divinations that are similar to Rary's telepathic bond, which is very similar to powers like correspond in the Telepathy discipline.)

[Seffbasilisk]

Flour/glitterdust/faerie fire can help cut that down.

Thunderhead will at least let you track the square it's in.