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View Full Version : KRUD! That monk based my wizard again!



Tryranus_Magus
2007-02-14, 11:06 AM
So how do you think you keep a monk with Dimension Door from basing your wizard?

I have some solutions, but wanted to hear some of your tactics to keep a VERY fast, VERY strong, VERY big monk from basing your wizard in the first round and ending an epic fight before it even gets started.

This player is very good at what he does. He has created a superb Mage Slayer without using the actual Mage Slayer prestige class. Max ranks of Spot and Listen, Blind-Fight make invisibility less useful. Dimension Door with Sun School feat and a VERY high initiative give him the jump almost everytime. I certainly don't mind. I think it's an excellent character. And he's certainly not the most 'powerful' character in the party. But he does present the biggest threat to end the battle in the first couple of rounds. I don't metagame against him, but a smart spellcaster who has scried on the party does know of his capabilities. So an intelligent defense is expected.

Like I said, I have some tactics that I have used in the past with moderate success and I don't want to create an impossible situation that negates all the hard work that he has put into his character. But lengthening the battle would be more fun for all. What do you think?

Thanks,
Scout Sniper

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-14, 11:07 AM
Anticipate Teleportation, a third-level spell from the Spell Compendium, or its Greater 6th-level brother.

Contingency.

Flying.

Foresight on, plus immediate-action Celerity spell from the PHB II.

There are also item solutions.
Freedom of Movement isn't a wizard spell, but is availible on a 40k gp ring. That negates grappling.
Wearing a +1 mithral buckler of Heavy Fortification makes one immune to Stunning Fist (monks can't stun crit-immune creatures).

With those two items, the monk can't grapple the (BBEG?) mage and can't stun the mage. I don't see how else he can disable him in one hit.

Yuki Akuma
2007-02-14, 11:08 AM
Craft a Contigent Dimensional Anchor to go off if anyone tries to Dimension Door near you.

Or make an epic spell that does the same.

the_tick_rules
2007-02-14, 11:09 AM
hey i'm just tickled pink to hear of one instance in this forum of a non-spellcaster giving a spellcaster some trouble.

Yuki Akuma
2007-02-14, 11:10 AM
hey i'm just tickled pink to hear of one instance in this forum of a non-spellcaster giving a spellcaster some trouble.

Wizards played badly aren't very survivable in a fight. And a wizard who can't handle a monk is a badly played one. :smallwink:

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-02-14, 11:11 AM
Dimensional Anchor (4th level, PHB)

EDIT: Ok, that was slow, even for me.

Saph
2007-02-14, 11:12 AM
What level's the wizard? What level's the monk? What books do you allow/have access to? The wizard is an NPC and the monk is a PC, right? Do you want to actually make it impossible for the monk to kill the wizard or just make it more difficult?

- Saph

Orzel
2007-02-14, 11:30 AM
Ha. A monk beating on someone. That's a laugh. A wizard too.

DD, Flight, D Anchor, etc.

The nicest non-mean answer is Slow spell. This at least gives them a chance to save.

Misat
2007-02-14, 11:33 AM
I love this as well...wizards in trouble. Yes I understand that a PC wizard wouldn't be smoked by a PC monk most likely, but I love how this post shows that spellcasters don't turn DnD into caster vs caster.

That is if the DM is smart about it.

hewhosaysfish
2007-02-14, 11:44 AM
Cunning use of Project Image could make Invisibility useful again.

Tryranus_Magus
2007-02-14, 11:48 AM
Wow! Some mage haters out there. Don't hate the mage. Hate the magic.

Also... What are talking about? Monks rock! If you can't use a monk to whoop up on a spellcaster, you're not aware of the power they possess.

Like I said... max ranks Spot and Listen, Blind-Fight, Boots of Speed on top of his 70 feet of movement, Dimension Door, Sun School feat, just to start. He's a half-orc that payed to have Enlarge Person made Permanent. He can DD and make a stunning attack in the first round. If you try to move away, he steps in and grapples the mage.

I'm good at managing my NPC's and this monk is a mage killing machine.

Now back to the point... the Enlarged Half-Orc monk with DD and Sun School feat is level 17 per the recommendations of CotSQ and the mage NPC is Irae T'sarran restatted. So were talking casting 8th level spells from arcane and divine sources. I just want to see if anyone had any ideas of how to lengthen the battle and keep the monk from ending her day in round 1 without being brutally unfair by casting a million spells that makes the monk's player feel like all the hard work he's put into a character that he's built and played for well over a year has been rendered impotent.

Thanks for you input.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-14, 11:55 AM
Also... What are talking about? Monks rock! If you can't use a monk to whoop up on a spellcaster, you're not aware of the power they possess.
And if you *can*, you're not aware of the power *spellcasters* possess.


I'm good at managing my NPC's and this monk is a mage killing machine.
I just gave you like five simple ways, three of them completely without any cheese, that mages can be pretty much completely safe from him.


I just want to see if anyone had any ideas of how to lengthen the battle and keep the monk from ending her day in round 1 without being brutally unfair by casting a million spells that makes the monk's player feel like all the hard work he's put into a character that he's built and played for well over a year has been rendered impotent.

Thanks for you input.
All it takes is one reasonable, hours/level duration defensive spell, Anticipate Teleport. Alternatively, Heavy Fortification + Freedom of Movement, which will allow the monk to hit the caster but not disable them.

Misat
2007-02-14, 11:55 AM
Wow! Some mage haters out there. Don't hate the mage. Hate the magic.

Also... What are talking about? Monks rock! If you can't use a monk to whoop up on a spellcaster, you're not aware of the power they possess.

Like I said... max ranks Spot and Listen, Blind-Fight, Boots of Speed on top of his 70 feet of movement, Dimension Door, Sun School feat, just to start. He's a half-orc that payed to have Enlarge Person made Permanent. He can DD and make a stunning attack in the first round. If you try to move away, he steps in and grapples the mage.

I'm good at managing my NPC's and this monk is a mage killing machine.

edit: *sigh* of course in the time it took to post the bears charged in and lazered my hopes.

Now back to the point... the Enlarged Half-Orc monk with DD and Sun School feat is level 17 per the recommendations of CotSQ and the mage NPC is Irae T'sarran restatted. So were talking casting 8th level spells from arcane and divine sources. I just want to see if anyone had any ideas of how to lengthen the battle and keep the monk from ending her day in round 1 without being brutally unfair by casting a million spells that makes the monk's player feel like all the hard work he's put into a character that he's built and played for well over a year has been rendered impotent.

Thanks for you input.

Don't get me wrong, monks do rule in my and my group's books. But my view always tends to be disrupted on these forums so it was nice to be agreed with. ONE QUESTION! How much does permenant Enlarge cost? Someone in my party wants to know and I can't figure it out. Also, how does dispell magic work on it? Don't want to hijak anything, but you seem to know your stuff a lot better than I do.

edit: of course the bears dashed me hopes of a civil discussion. Durn lazer weilding heathens.

Indon
2007-02-14, 11:58 AM
I just want to see if anyone had any ideas of how to lengthen the battle and keep the monk from ending her day in round 1 without being brutally unfair by casting a million spells that makes the monk's player feel like all the hard work he's put into a character that he's built and played for well over a year has been rendered impotent.


There is a point where, at sufficiently high level PCvPC combat, it's really just a cheese-off. The better munchkin/minmaxer/whateveryouwannacallit will win.

You would not be cheesing this super-monk; you would be outcheesing him.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-14, 12:00 PM
There is a point where, at sufficiently high level PCvPC combat, it's really just a cheese-off. The better munchkin/minmaxer/whateveryouwannacallit will win.

You would not be cheesing this super-monk; you would be outcheesing him.

Um. The monk isn't cheesy in any way. Cheesy is using size increases and the Greater Might Wallop spell for YourMomd6 damage fists, or getting PAOed into a giant and then using a hat of disguise to look human. Using Sun School + Abundant Step is taking and using an okay feat in exactly the way it's meant to be used. Cripes, Abundant Step is even once/day.
Similarily, using the spell Anticipate Teleport to prevent enemies from teleporting next to you isn't cheesy in any way. Nor is a ring of Freedom of Movement and Heavy Fortification buckler, say.

Indon
2007-02-14, 12:05 PM
Um. The monk isn't cheesy in any way. Cheesy is using size increases and the Greater Might Wallop spell for YourMomd6 damage fists, or getting PAOed into a giant and then using a hat of disguise to look human. Using Sun School + Abundant Step is taking and using an okay feat in exactly the way it's meant to be used. Cripes, Abundant Step is even once/day.
Similarily, using the spell Anticipate Teleport to prevent enemies from teleporting next to you isn't cheesy in any way. Nor is a ring of Freedom of Movement and Heavy Fortification buckler, say.

Rather than get into an argument with you about it, I'd rather just say we have different standards for what cuts the cheese threshold, and leave it at that.

Ramza00
2007-02-14, 12:08 PM
First Bear, the most recent version of Anticipate Teleport if I recall is in the spell compedium. This version has a flat 24 hour duration (takes 10 mins to cast though so you do it when you wake up). There is also a 6th lvl "greater" version that delays the teleporter 3 rounds and the person who it is centered on knows exactly who the person is.

------------------------------------------------

To the original poster, I like Monks too, I just recongize that effectively there is nothing you can do to increase the monk's usefulness after say lvl 11 or so. Then you have to multiclass to get spells, use items, or use buffs your allies cast on you, to make yourself more useful. It sucks but that is how D&D works.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-14, 12:11 PM
Rather than get into an argument with you about it, I'd rather just say we have different standards for what cuts the cheese threshold, and leave it at that.

Man, is everything remotely effective "cheesy" by some standards?
I mean, "cheese" normally refers to using things in ways that they're not meant to be used to make them more powerful, or doing unlikely or ridiculously things just to be more powerful. I'm not sure how you're using it if it's not that way.

goat
2007-02-14, 12:16 PM
Counter-monk him. They don't even have to be very good at damage dealing, just tool them up with every initiative boosting piece of kit/feat/spell you can come up with, and then pray they get highest and can ready an action to defend the wizard.

Indon
2007-02-14, 12:26 PM
Man, is everything remotely effective "cheesy" by some standards?
I mean, "cheese" normally refers to using things in ways that they're not meant to be used to make them more powerful, or doing unlikely or ridiculously things just to be more powerful. I'm not sure how you're using it if it's not that way.

That's what we have different standards for.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-14, 12:27 PM
It's unlikely or ridiculous to take a reasonably-powered feat and use it for the purpose it was intended?

Or to cast defensive spells/use items to protect against something you know to be a weakness of yours?

How is the monk using Sun School any more unlikely or ridiculous than the fighter using Improved Trip, or the mage using a Ring of Freedom of Movement any more ridiculous or unlikely than the fighter using a Cloak of Protection or Amulet of Natural Armor?

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-02-14, 12:34 PM
See, I never play wizards because their spells give me a headache. I'm not good at battlefield control. This is fact. I'm also not good at predicting enemy encounters and setting up my daily spells appropriately.

So an intelligent monk PC could probably destroy me. He shouldn't, but he will. This is also why DM's love me when I play arcane casters. I'm so bad at it that I don't break anything.

Indon
2007-02-14, 12:36 PM
It's unlikely or ridiculous to take a reasonably-powered feat and use it for the purpose it was intended?


And again you cut to the heart of the distinction.

I don't view likelyhood in terms of power levels and metagame intent, I view it in terms of character knowledge and opportunity.

Yuki Akuma
2007-02-14, 12:37 PM
And again you cut to the heart of the distinction.

I don't view likelyhood in terms of power levels and metagame intent, I view it in terms of character knowledge and opportunity.

...Wait, what? So... you consider a monk, knowing that he can't attack right after using Abudant Step, may decide to learn a special technique that allows him to Abudant Step and attack almost simultaneously metagame knowledge?

And... you believe a wizard, who is more intelligent than any living human in the real world has ever or will ever likely be, would not know of his own weaknesses and would not know how besty to counteract them with a spell he has in his spellbook, and has most likely studied in great detail?

Edit: Damn, I'm terrible at grammar today.

Cyborg Pirate
2007-02-14, 12:38 PM
And again you cut to the heart of the distinction.

I don't view likelyhood in terms of power levels and metagame intent, I view it in terms of character knowledge and opportunity.

...ok... I'm a little at loss with this one. How is a character who seeks in character to protect himself from his own flaws cheesy?

Rigeld2
2007-02-14, 12:40 PM
And again you cut to the heart of the distinction.

I don't view likelyhood in terms of power levels and metagame intent, I view it in terms of character knowledge and opportunity.
Right. The character should know (from legends, stories etc. of other great wizards) that wizards are weak once someone gets close to them. The character should also know that monks (among many other classes) can teleport. A spell like Anticipate Teleport would be extremely useful in lessening the weakness to the character, making him less vulnerable to death by being teleported next to.

100% in character knowledge.

Ramza00
2007-02-14, 12:42 PM
And again you cut to the heart of the distinction.

I don't view likelyhood in terms of power levels and metagame intent, I view it in terms of character knowledge and opportunity.

While Anticipate Teleportation is a Complete Arcane/Spell Compedium spell and thus you can make the arguement that a wizard isn't likely to know it. Dimensional Anchor is in the PHB and thus is very likely to be a commonly known spell in any game world, unless you purposefully craft a game world where teleportation doesn't occur. Same thing with Contingency.

Ramza00
2007-02-14, 12:43 PM
Damn I was ninja'd by 3 people :(

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-14, 12:48 PM
And again you cut to the heart of the distinction.

I don't view likelyhood in terms of power levels and metagame intent, I view it in terms of character knowledge and opportunity.

How is a monk developing a technique to strike after using the step-through-space ability monks develop different from a fighter perfecting a technique to trip opponents, or break their weapons?

How is it unlikely for a highly intelligent wizard to hunt down a spell that will keep him safer?


Also, how on earth do you determine what spells a character would and wouldn't have heard of? How is it any less reasonable to have a character who heard of Anticipate Teleportation at Wizard School, or who knows about Rings of Freedom, than one who heard of Haste or knows about Rods of Extend Spell?

Characters with Anticipate Teleport and a Ring of Freedom are no more unlikely than characters without. "What my character has and hasn't heard of" is a fairly arbitrary decision, and it is always a "metagame" decision.

Is it unreasonable to wear fullplate if you have 12 dex, too?

Cyborg Pirate
2007-02-14, 12:52 PM
woooh, that's some massive ninja'ing in the thread

Ramza00
2007-02-14, 12:53 PM
How is it unlikely for a highly intelligent wizard to hunt down a spell that will keep him safer?

Note that a wizard will be far more likely to research things against teleportation in general. A wizard understands he is weak and can't take the hits like a fighter can. Thus he realize enemies getting close=death, and since teleportation is the easiest way to get close, finding a defense will be one of the largest priorities in a wizard's life.

He doesn't worry about monk's who take sunstep, he worries about all teleporters.

Indon
2007-02-14, 12:54 PM
...Wait, what? So... you consider a monk, knowing that he can't attack right after using Abudant Step, may decide to learn a special technique that allows him to Abudant Step and attack almost simultaneously metagame knowledge?

All right. Let's say I have a player who decided to study this sun school.

Me: "So, where'd you study the School?"
Player: "Huh?"
Me: "It's not called a 'school' for no reason. It's a methodology that is taught. How did you become aware of it? Why were you trained under it, and for how long?"
Player: "Uh, the, uh, monastery I learned to be a monk in followed it."
Me: "...Eh, good enough."

-It's not all that cheesy.



And... you believe a wizard, who is more intelligent than any living human in the real world has ever or will ever likely be, would not know of his own weaknesses and would not know how besty to counteract them with a spell he has in his spellbook, and has most likely studied in great detail?

Edit: Damn, I'm terrible at grammar today.

Me: "And the monk uses Stunning Fist on you. Make your Fort save."
Player: "I'm immune to stunning fist. I have a fortification buckler."
Me: "Lemme get this straight. You are immune to being stunned by a monk's attack on your person... which isn't a critical hit... because you're wearing something on your arm."
Player: "Yup!"
Me: "So, why precisely did you decide to wear this shield?"
Player: "'Cause my character has mad brainz, that's why!"

-That's plenty cheesy, in my view.

I won't get into spells because that would completely leave the original topic.

Yuki Akuma
2007-02-14, 12:58 PM
All right. Let's say I have a player who decided to study this sun school.
Me: "And the monk uses Stunning Fist on you. Make your Fort save."
Player: "I'm immune to stunning fist. I have a fortification buckler."
Me: "Lemme get this straight. You are immune to being stunned by a monk's attack on your person... which isn't a critical hit... because you're wearing something on your arm."
Player: "Yup!"
Me: "So, why precisely did you decide to wear this shield?"
Player: "'Cause my character has mad brainz, that's why!"

-That's plenty cheesy, in my view.

I won't get into spells because that would completely leave the original topic.

Um. A wizard who can craft a buckler, or just finds one, that protects him from lethal strikes like critical hits, say, or sneak attacks, could conceivably wear one. It's actually metagaming if he has one, knows what it does, and doesn't wear it because it has an arcane spell failure chance.

Ramza00
2007-02-14, 12:58 PM
Fortification


This suit of armor or shield produces a magical force that protects vital areas of the wearer more effectively. When a critical hit (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#criticalHits) or sneak attack is scored on the wearer, there is a chance that the critical hit or sneak attack is negated and damage is instead rolled normally.
Fortification Type Chance for Normal Damage Base Price Modifier Light 25% +1 bonus Moderate 75% +3 bonus Heavy 100% +5 bonus Strong abjuration; CL 13th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#craftMagicArmsAndArmor), limited wish (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/limitedWish.htm) or miracle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/miracle.htm); Price varies (see above).
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes I find it very likely for a wizard to get a shield/armor that does this. It is designed to protect against "sneak attacks" (attacks that target vital areas of the body aka weakspots.)

Remember even a lowly hobbit (bilbo) looked for weak spots against the mighty dragon Smaug.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

And talk about the spell for its completely on topic. What is your reasoning?

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-14, 12:59 PM
All right. Let's say I have a player who decided to study this sun school.

Me: "So, where'd you study the School?"
Player: "Huh?"
Me: "It's not called a 'school' for no reason. It's a methodology that is taught. How did you become aware of it? Why were you trained under it, and for how long?"
Player: "Uh, the, uh, monastery I learned to be a monk in followed it."
Me: "...Eh, good enough."

-It's not all that cheesy.
Or at all cheesy.
And no, it's not called a "school" for no reason. It's called a "school" because feats need names. How is it any more unreasonable for the methodology to be something the monk worked out on his own?


Me: "And the monk uses Stunning Fist on you. Make your Fort save."
Player: "I'm immune to stunning fist. I have a fortification buckler."
Me: "Lemme get this straight. You are immune to being stunned by a monk's attack on your person... which isn't a critical hit... because you're wearing something on your arm."
Player: "Yup!"
Me: "So, why precisely did you decide to wear this shield?"
Player: "'Cause my character has mad brainz, that's why!"

-That's plenty cheesy, in my view."Because my character doesn't want to have his head chopped off or his vitals pierced, those being bad things?" Heavy Fortification is an all-around useful defense that a high-level character of any sort should probably have anyway. The same magical energies that protect the character's vital organs from pointy things protect them from whatever the fluff of Stunning Fist is. How on earth is that cheesy?


I won't get into spells because that would completely leave the original topic.The original topic has pretty much been answered. I can start a new thread for this, if you'd really like.

It's possible to come up with a reasonable IC explanation for most things. That strikes me as a pretty bad determinant of what's cheesy. Is it somehow not cheesy to pull the Polymorph Any Object cheese I mentioned if I write the details of how the character would know about it into the character's backstory? I certainly wouldn't say so.

Quietus
2007-02-14, 01:00 PM
Guys, relax... I see where the problem is here, I think.

The problem lies in when the caster is specifically carrying items DESIGNED to make the Monk less effective. If it's an extremely powerful caster, then perhaps that's fair; Maybe he's been scrying on the party. Then you just need to find a way to neutralize those items. No one said you couldn't have the party Cleric ready an action to cast Antimagic Field on you the moment you appear next to the wizard. Let's see your wizard's ring/robe/magic items work THEN. Sure, if the wizard's in the air, you're going to end up falling. Just make sure the wizard's on the bottom of the pile when you hit the ground.

Person_Man
2007-02-14, 01:02 PM
1) Win Initiative or cast Celerity or cast a Quickened spell.

2) Cast a powerful high level spell that doesn't have a Ref save.

3) Dead Monk.

Thanks to MAD, Monks rarely have a high hit points. Yes, they're uber mobile and have high Saves. So what? There are literally dozens of no Save spells.

Power Words work well. Irresistable Dance is always hilarious. Or you could cast Resiliant Sphere around yourself and then Summon a ton of monsters. Heck, you could just buff yourself with enough spells and then beat the tar out of him. How fun would that be?

I haven't even glanced at the Spell Compedium yet. But I think the simplest solution is the obvious one - be smart about what you cast, kill/incapacitate him first.

Rigeld2
2007-02-14, 01:06 PM
Guys, relax... I see where the problem is here, I think.

The problem lies in when the caster is specifically carrying items DESIGNED to make the Monk less effective. If it's an extremely powerful caster, then perhaps that's fair; Maybe he's been scrying on the party. Then you just need to find a way to neutralize those items. No one said you couldn't have the party Cleric ready an action to cast Antimagic Field on you the moment you appear next to the wizard. Let's see your wizard's ring/robe/magic items work THEN. Sure, if the wizard's in the air, you're going to end up falling. Just make sure the wizard's on the bottom of the pile when you hit the ground.

but a smart spellcaster who has scried on the party does know of his capabilities. So an intelligent defense is expected.
The Wizard in question has scried on the party. He knows the monk is Large and likes to DD and strike in the same instant. This is a given. The easiest way for him to protect himself? Anticipate Teleport.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-14, 01:07 PM
Guys, relax... I see where the problem is here, I think.

The problem lies in when the caster is specifically carrying items DESIGNED to make the Monk less effective.
Except that the items mentioned are very useful defenses against *all sorts* of opponents, not just monks. It's not a Ring of Protection from Monks.

In any case, how is that a problem? Part of the DM's job is to set up well-balanced encounters. Equipment is a big part of balance.


If it's an extremely powerful caster, then perhaps that's fair; Maybe he's been scrying on the party. Then you just need to find a way to neutralize those items. No one said you couldn't have the party Cleric ready an action to cast Antimagic Field on you the moment you appear next to the wizard.
If I had an eye-rolling smiley, I'd use it. By your reasoning, how exactly would the cleric know that the wizard has those items?


Let's see your wizard's ring/robe/magic items work THEN. Sure, if the wizard's in the air, you're going to end up falling. Just make sure the wizard's on the bottom of the pile when you hit the ground.Of course, the monk can't abundant step into the AMF.
Oh, and antimagic field is personal range. The cleric can only cast it on himself. And if he does, he has no way to get to the flying wizard.

But, yes, antimagic field is a good spell for fighting wizards, if used right (you need to be able to get the AMF up and near the wizard, and then stop the wizard from moving away, before the wizard has a chance to get away from the emanation). What's your point?


I think your cries of "cheese" have been solidly debunked. You might want to be a little less free with the term, since it's generally seen as derogatory.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-14, 01:10 PM
Telekinetic Sphere the monk, and move the sphere up every round. At a sufficiently high height, release. Splat.

Just make sure he's not near anything, or else he'll Slow Fall it.

Hell, when you release, smack him with a Defenestrating Sphere for extra altitude.

Ramza00
2007-02-14, 01:18 PM
Of course, the monk can't abundant step into the AMF.
Oh, and antimagic field is personal range. The cleric can only cast it on himself. And if he does, he has no way to get to the flying wizard.


Quite easy to do with a Jade Phoenix Mage, a Ruby Knight Vindicator, or any class with manuevers and a scroll of Anti-Magic Field. Just use Shadow Jaunt to teleport where the wizard is.

Note this doesn't help the monk

Quietus
2007-02-14, 01:26 PM
I think you need to relax a bit, Bears. I wasn't crying cheese. I was trying to show people both ends of this. If the Wizard just happens to be carrying several hundred thousand gold worth of items that all just conveniently happen to combine to make the Monk worthless, that player is going to feel ripped off, no matter HOW well the DM can justify it.

Yes, it's fair; If it was a PC vs PC fight, I'd fully expect the Wizard who's been scrying on the party to go down the list, and make a laundry list of everything needed to negate the party in every way. An NPC? They're going to look for the most important things - which will start with making certain the Monk can't teleport next to them, but the rest of his wealth (since in my experience, NPC's are rarely as well geared as PC's) will go toward helping versus the OTHER PC's, not just the Monk. Flight + Dimensional Lock around himself would be fine. And if the going gets tough, move action takes him out of the DL, where he can teleport.


As for antimagic field, you're entirely correct. I forgot about that little caveat.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-14, 01:35 PM
I think you need to relax a bit, Bears. I wasn't crying cheese. I was trying to show people both ends of this. If the Wizard just happens to be carrying several hundred thousand gold worth of items that all just conveniently happen to combine to make the Monk worthless, that player is going to feel ripped off, no matter HOW well the DM can justify it.
Neither of those are specifically anti-monk items. Immunity to crits hurts the fighter just as much, and the Ring of Freedom takes away a large number of the PC casters' best options. Both of those are absolutely common-sense items for high-level characters. (And well within a CR 17+ NPC's wealth guidelines, the ring costing 40k and the buckler 37k.)
You were, in fact, crying cheese: you called the monk cheesy (he's not) and the proposed anti-monk ideas even cheesier (they're not).
They also wouldn't make the monk worthless--he'd still be able to attack. He just wouldn't be able to win initiative, poof over, and grapple or stun the caster, ending the fight.


Yes, it's fair; If it was a PC vs PC fight, I'd fully expect the Wizard who's been scrying on the party to go down the list, and make a laundry list of everything needed to negate the party in every way. An NPC? They're going to look for the most important things - which will start with making certain the Monk can't teleport next to them, but the rest of his wealth (since in my experience, NPC's are rarely as well geared as PC's) will go toward helping versus the OTHER PC's, not just the Monk. Flight + Dimensional Lock around himself would be fine. And if the going gets tough, move action takes him out of the DL, where he can teleport.
Both of those items help against other PCs. They are multi-purpose, generally good items. Similarily, Anticipate Teleport isn't unreasonable even if he hadn't scryed the party.

Nad
2007-02-14, 01:36 PM
If I were DMing that situation, I'd just make a monk that would just charge that monk and try and grapple him. Heck, why not a golem that the wizard made just to grapple that monk and keep him busy during the fight. Even better, if the wizard is smart, have him clone the monk, cast enlarge on him right at the start of the fight and he can go wrestle himself.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-02-14, 01:39 PM
Could the wizard turn things around with Black Tentacle, maybe? One of my spellcasting players did that against an enemy lich to astonishingly good effect. Spellcasters don't have good grapple or escape artist stats.

NullAshton
2007-02-14, 01:43 PM
Isn't there an antimagic ray that affects a single opponent? Hit the wizard, wizard goes splat.

Also, no save spells tend to need a touch attack. Monks have ungodly high touch ACs, because not that much is armor. Even things like power word spells can be countered easily, by things like a ring of freedom of movement, having over 100 HP at high levels...

Quietus
2007-02-14, 01:45 PM
How often does a flying Wizard need Freedom of Movement, if he's eliminated opportunities for opponents to grapple him? You're flying, for one - that's pretty annoying for any Monk to deal with. Sure, he could blink and appear in front of you, but if you've got a Dimensional Lock going (which, if he's powerful and smart enough to be scrying on the PC's every move, he should be able to get this up), he can't do that, either.

Also, no, I did not once mention cheese, Bears. Perhaps you're mistaking me with someone else. All I said was that if a spellcaster purposefully negates everything a single character can do (since if the wizard is flying, that makes it that much tougher for the monk to get to him to MAKE those attacks), that leaves that character's player annoyed and feeling ripped off.

Misat
2007-02-14, 01:48 PM
If I were DMing that situation, I'd just make a monk that would just charge that monk and try and grapple him. Heck, why not a golem that the wizard made just to grapple that monk and keep him busy during the fight. Even better, if the wizard is smart, have him clone the monk, cast enlarge on him right at the start of the fight and he can go wrestle himself.

I have to say that nothing shouts 'Wizard body gaurd' wuite like a golem. That and that 'you can't teleport next to me spell' or what ever it was seems very much so within the limits of a high end NPC's preparation. Yes he could HAVE those items, but I don't think he'd have them prior to this fight, and how long ago did he scry? Where as if I where a high level wizard I'd want nothing more than a personal metal shield that moves and punches.

Also it is pretty odd when you think about a small little buckler protecting you from all criticals. What it makes even less sense for is sneak attacks and stunning blows. I think that the 'creatures immune to criticals are not effected' clause was intended mainly for monsters where it makes sense and should be taken with a grain of salt.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-14, 01:53 PM
How often does a flying Wizard need Freedom of Movement, if he's eliminated opportunities for opponents to grapple him? You're flying, for one - that's pretty annoying for any Monk to deal with. Sure, he could blink and appear in front of you, but if you've got a Dimensional Lock going (which, if he's powerful and smart enough to be scrying on the PC's every move, he should be able to get this up), he can't do that, either.
Flying is nice, but many enemies can fly via items or spells. Additionally, there are loads of spells that Freedom of Movement lets you shrug off, from Hold Person to Bands of Steel to Solid Fog.


Also, no, I did not once mention cheese, Bears. Perhaps you're mistaking me with someone else. All I said was that if a spellcaster purposefully negates everything a single character can do (since if the wizard is flying, that makes it that much tougher for the monk to get to him to MAKE those attacks), that leaves that character's player annoyed and feeling ripped off.Yeah, I'm mistaking you for Indus. Sorry about that.
A flying spell or item would still let the monk close if the wizard is flying. The monk can do the things he normally does--he just can't pull his "teleport-stun/grab" combo.


Edit: as for the buckler, Heavy Fortification is an enchantment. I'm pretty sure that the actual given fluff is that it creates force fields to cover your vitals.

Grey Watcher
2007-02-14, 01:58 PM
Red Watcher: Pending further review, I'm locking this thread.