The Warden, a class converted from 4e. (PEACH)

[Inevitability]

I have deleted this class for now. Sorry if you were looking for it. In the future, I will spend time on a similar and hopefully equally liked class. Bear with me until then.

[Tempestfury]

'DC for the saving throw is 10 + the Warden's constitution modifier + the Warden's class level.'? That's a bit much, I suggest going for the usual. 10+1/2 class level+Con.

I like the animal companion as it fits with the theme... but honestly I think the effective druid level should be -3 not 1/2, can actually make strong use of it during the late game.

Drudic Aspect is fun as well, giving the Warden what basically amounts for a small pool of spontanous casting, which increasing his flexibility.

Though that then brings me to nature's weapon... why don't you get the bonus when using natural weapons like bite and claw attacks?

Oh and you really, really need a capstone ability. The Double Guardian Form is good, but not a Capstone. I have a suggestion, how about your least guardian form's duration becomes permanent, and you gain the ability to change form even when its not your turn?

[Inevitability]

Thanks for the feedback!

I edited the saving throw DC's.

The AC is mainly based on the ranger ability. I may change it in the future.

Nature's weapon has been edited.

I'm not so sure about the capstone proposed by you. What exactly is not good about what I've got now?

[Tempestfury]

I'm not so sure about the capstone proposed by you. What exactly is not good about what I've got now?

Almost every class has a cap-stone ability, a feature that says 'Thank you for sticking with us for twenty levels. Have this super-special-awesome ability in thanks'.

The Double Guardian ability? Its a strong abilitiy, don't get me wrong, but you've already got that ability before level 20, so just upgrading it doesn't feet right for a capstone ability.

[Inevitability]

I won't change it. I feel like getting to assume two lesser forms at the same time is refreshing enough.

If a better capstone is proposed, I may change it.

[Tempestfury]

You mean apart from permanently having the bonuses of your least forms (well, one at a time) and the ability to change forms when its not your turn (like being pushed into a pit so you want to be able to fly) you mean? Maybe extending the durations of the other forms as well?

[Inevitability]

I'll think about it.

[Tempestfury]

I'll think about it.

Well, as you do so. Can I have a PEACH from you in return?

[Inevitability]

Okay, but I'm going to sleep now. I'll PEACH something of you tomorrow. Do you have a preference?

[Tempestfury]

Sure, that's more than fair.

[Zaydos]

I'd actually suggest dropping the attack bonus from Nature's Weapons. Even without it you're a barbarian with a small + for combat capabilities (though shorter rages) and as they level get various non-combat abilities (flight, perception at Lv 1 for example), and special attack options that give them in combat versatility that a barbarian lacks. Note that even sans pounce barbarian is a solid tier 4 and the big separation between barbarian and tier 3 is non-combat abilities and combat versatility. Giving them the same raw numbers as barbarians (except the +6 and +8 come earlier) and then both of these AND animal companion (even if a ranger level weak one) is just mean. I'm not even thinking about their SLAs here.

Overall, though, I'd say good job, I need to look over all of the actual forms. Only looked at a few thus far.

[Inevitability]

I'll change Nature's Weapons. I just can't come up with anything to replace it with. Do you think I should? Does anyone have any suggestions?

EDIT: I got an idea, instead of NW, you can specialize in a single least, lesser or greater form, gaining extra bonuses when in it. How's that?

[Zaydos]

Like +2 to whatever stat it increases? Could work, it's a minor power that doesn't make them stronger so much as one of their weaker tricks better. Might even let it be 2 or 3 forms per time they gain the ability, possibly stacking up to +8 at the 3rd time (I assume they have the 4th tier then).

[Inevitability]

Thanks for your feedback. I'll start on prestige classes and feats soon.

EDIT: Actually, it may take until next week. I'm sorry for that.

[Inevitability]

I've thought about a capstone again, and I've come up with one, which IMO is both flavorful and mechanically strong. I'd love to hear other's opinions on it!

[DeAnno]

With how many Guardian Forms you get per day and how long they last, you might want to switch to per encounter mechanics (or even at will) instead. Aside from your highest level of forms, I don't really see running out ever being a thing as long as you have Con 16 or so.

Are you trying to enable people to shuffle them around once per turn? I'll read them more in depth later and think more about a coherent picture of a working day.

[Inevitability]

Well, yes. If you just keep assuming a form until it runs out, then you can easily be in a Guardian Form all day.

However, several forms reward ending them prematurely, and sometimes the best course of action is to end a form and assume a new one.

For example, the party is fighting a dragon. The dragon is out of melee range, so the Warden assumes the aspect of the regal lion and charges the dragon.

Next turn, the Warden assumes the form of the acidic ooze to create an extra layer of protection against the dragon's attacks.

A couple turns later, the dragon flies away, and the Warden turns into a flying creature to give chase.

That way, you have used 3 guardian forms, even though you could probably have been in one all the time.

[Blue_C.]

Are you trying to enable people to shuffle them around once per turn? I'll read them more in depth later and think more about a coherent picture of a working day.

This actually brings another consideration to mind. Assuming a form is not an action, and I'm guessing that ending a form is also not an action, but you may want to make that clear. You also may want to clarify if its possible to assume more than one guardian form per round. Like, say, an 11th level warden popping Earthquake form twice in one round. I'm sure you did not intend for THAT, but there are less broken examples, such as assuming Eagle to move to an enemy, ending eagle form, and assuming viper to make a bite attack once you're actually at your opponent.

[Inevitability]

Nice catch. I fixed it.

[Tempestfury]

... Well... your own personal demiplane would definitely come across as powerful, I'll give you that...

[Inevitability]

But then again, it is something all the tier 1 and 2 classes can get too. And they can infinitely expand it.

It is powerful, but it means missing out on prestige classes, and hey, Healers can cast Gate, but they are still tier 5.

[Tempestfury]

Hence why I said it could come across as powerful...

Honestly? I don't like it, ad I don't see how it fits thematically.

[Infernally Clay]

I'm really not so sure about Skin as Strong as Stone, y'know. Con mod bonus to AC is pretty nuts. You might consider, instead, emulating the second wind mechanic or simply copying the mechanic from 4E instead - as in either allow a Warden to calculate AC using Con instead of Dex while wearing light armour, or allow a Warden to "second wind". Once per battle, as a standard action, you could allow them to heal a small amount of their health and increase their AC by their Constitution modifier until the end of their next turn. You could expand upon it further as 4E does and allow feats to expand what bonuses a Warden receives for using their second wind.

[Zaydos]

I don't really like the demiplane ability. It's not that it's too powerful (the big benefit is plane shift to/from it at-will), but it seems to be out of nowhere on this class.

You also might just want to half Skin of Stone. This is keeping the bonus relatively small (~+1-+2 AC at Lv 1, +3-+5 at Lv 20 meaning it's a little high at high levels, but to get it that high means not investing as heavily in Strength). As is the bonus can heavily skew AC at high levels compared to other melee classes (22 Con = +6 AC and with the Con focus of their other abilities isn't too high of a number to expect and possibly a low ball atm).

Still need to look over the guardian forms at some point.

[Overneath]

I think the only thing Paradise really needs is for the class itself to have more fluff dedicated to noting that the Warden gains their powers from powerful primal entities. It doesn't seem out of nowhere if you consider that all of the beings he's getting his powers from probably have a demiplane like it in their back pocket as well, and can spare one to powerful followers.

Also, does Leviathan form take into account that gaining two size categories also increases your Strength? I'm pretty sure it gives a total of +16.

[Inevitability]

I will reconsider the capstone, as I am getting some mixed opinions on that. I'll do as Overneath says and try to emphasize the Warden's primal flavor.

As for Skin Strong as Stone, criticism has been taken into account. It is now half con-mod bonus.

EDIT: And regarding Leviathan, I may just rule that unless you completely assume the form of another creature (like the Rat form makes you), your size doesn't influence ability scores. How do you feel about that?

[DeAnno]

I'm skeptical that Skin as Strong as Stone was game distorting; at high levels AC is a nuclear arms race anyway, and it isn't even Touch AC.

I believe that size increases don't naturally change stats in the monster manual fashion unless it is explicitly declared or part of monster advancement. Enlarge person doesn't call out not giving you +8 strength for example.

[Overneath]

EDIT: And regarding Leviathan, I may just rule that unless you completely assume the form of another creature (like the Rat form makes you), your size doesn't influence ability scores. How do you feel about that?


I believe that size increases don't naturally change stats in the monster manual fashion unless it is explicitly declared or part of monster advancement. Enlarge person doesn't call out not giving you +8 strength for example.

Just making sure what was intended and what wasn't. This ability strikes me less as Enlarge Person and more as Wild Shape, at least as far as that mechanic would be concerned. And it's always preferable for RAW to be clear as opposed to making someone guess as to what's going on.

[killer_monk]

Personally, I love it thus far. I wouldn't say you're tier 4, though you probably could go high tier 3 if you keep adding forms.

As a capstone, I'd like to suggest getting to summon an elemental monolith! Now, I know it's powerful, but it's a capstone, so rewarding players for 20 levels of the same thing isn't a bad thing. Maybe this is OP, but I'm yet to see a monolith get summoned by anyone in any game, so...

Also, AC is an arms race. Giving the full bonus really won't hurt that much, since you pretty much have to dump your other stats to make it threatening.

I play Pathfinder, and this class fits nicely IMHO. I can't answer for 3.5 players, but I love it so far, and would go as far as to allow it in any one of my games even in it's current state.

Oh, and add some more forms. I know this isn't very constructive criticism. But you can totally roll with the whole elemental/primal aspects and get several more forms out of it.

Other than that, I'm loving it. Keep up the good work!:smallbiggrin:

[Inevitability]

I will keep the natural armor bonus 1/2 your constitution bonus at lower levels, but I'll increase it to the whole bonus at level 8 (which also removes the final dead level, and prevents this from becoming another 2-level paladin dip).

[Ilinoris]

I actually see this class as slightly OP.
Good BAB, two good saves and a D12 for HD, then the guardian forms which many of them grant DEX to heighten AC, or STR to improve damage output.
I just see this as very versitile and I'd call it at the least high tier 3, almost calling it tier 2 (Gasp! I know.)
I'd recommend removing spell casting IMO. I think it's nice fluff, but it makes the class very, very versatile.
I could easily see this class abused. But I loooove the concept!
I don't know what else to add. :smallsmile:

[Inevitability]

I agree that this class is definitely strong, but OP? No.

Good BAB, 1d12 HD and 2 good saves are good, but hardly enough to make a class OP, but the spell casting is very limited. What makes wizards, clerics and druids good spellcasters again? The enormous spell list, and the ability to prepare others every day. And a lot of their OP spells are high level.

[razorfloss]

i like this and it gives me an excuse to miss with the party driud

[Ilinoris]

I agree that this class is definitely strong, but OP? No.

What I meant was that I saw it as OP, considering it was aiming for a tier 3 :smallsmile:

[Inevitability]

I'll try to create another PrC this evening.

[Inevitability]

I removed the PrC's, as they made the post too long.

I hope you like this class! PEACHing is still welcome!

[Larkas]

Wow, I really like this. It's both new and refreshing! I can see this up there in T3 in regards to versatility and powers. A few critiques:

1) It seems like you wrote the activation and deactivation action for Guardian Forms with a mind to mimic the barbarian's rage. Note, however, that "entering a rage takes no time itself", it doesn't say it takes "no action". That is pretty much the definition of free action! You may want to clarify that. Pure semantics, I know, but it doesn't hurt to follow the system's tradition if doing so won't hurt the homebrew. :smallsmile:

2) You may want to rewrite One with Nature to be more like a true dragon's frightful presence, that is, boosting its save DC to 10 + 1/2 warden's class level + Cha modifier (which makes it slightly more likely to go off) and making a creature that passes it immune to it for 24 hours (this is mostly for in-game consistency). Also, is it mind-affecting? You may want to clarify that.

3) Paradise of the Guardian is a great abilty! Flavorful and proper for a capstone! A few points I must make, though:


3.a) "...the primal spirits reward the Warden for carrying out their will be using themselves to create a demiplane..." should probably read "...the primal spirits reward the Warden for carrying out their will by using themselves to create a demiplane..."

3.b) Giving the character free reign over the demiplane's planar traits might give rise to a dreaded fast time plane. You might want to limit that. (Not to mention the possibility to make the demiplane a dead magic zone, which would be... weird.)

3.c) Likewise, it might be nice to make the demiplane "divinely morphic-like", with the warden treated as a deity there. It could even be limited, in that he can't change it all at once, but it would be nice if he could, over time, alter it a bit just by thinking about it ("now that I think about it, a little lake full of fish right next to that tree might be a good idea...")

3.d) Does the warden age while in his demiplane? It would be AWESOME if he could simply stop aging if he decided to just stay there! Cue the epic warden from ages past that has come back to the world to right some ancient wrong!

3.e) Likewise, what happens if the demiplane's warden dies? Does it dissipate? Does it enrich some other natural plane (I'm thinking something like MotP's Plane of Spirits or 4E's Feywild here)? Does it create new kinds of animals? These are all flavorful, if flavor-only questions that might be nice to answer.

3.f) This demiplane has a fixed size. It might be nice to make it bigger so it can hold more life (maybe even 1-mile radius), or just make it grow indefinitely like a demiplane created by genesis (magic or psionic), even if just a little every year. The warden is intimately linked to life, after all, and life needs space. Frankly, 300-feet radius seems like a glorified cage to me.

3.g) A wizard can teleport reliably since 9th level, and teleport without error since 13th. That's as reliable an escape route as any, and it only costs a standard action. Not only is the plane shift effect more unreliable (you don't know where you'll end up when you decide to go back to the material/any other plane), it takes too long to come into effect to be useful as an escape route. You might want to consider lowering the activation time to a single full-round action.

3.h) Since we're talking about the plane shift effect, you might want to clarify if it is a supernatural effect (and as such doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity) or a spell-like effect (which does).

3.i) Can access to the demiplane by other creatures be prohibited by the warden? Can the warden define an entry point for outsiders (maybe into an AMF trap designed by him so he may question them before releasing - or banishing - them)? Can he give free access to a few choice allies (maybe using some sort of key, like a seed from a tree that can only be found and can only thrive in the demiplane)?

4) I noticed that when describing the animal forms, you pointed out several times that the damage from a natural weapon is "1dX + strength modifier". That's not how 3.5 works: you just need to point out if the natural weapon is primary or secondary, and the adding of the Strength (or other attribute, if you found out how to substitute for Strength in any given build) modifier follows from that. Reading this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_naturalweapon&alpha=) and this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?207928-Urpriest-s-Monstrous-Monster-Handbook) might help. You might actually want to clarify what happens when the character obtains more than one natural weapon.

5) The ability from Form of the Spring Breeze is a lot like the withdraw (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#withdraw) action: better in that you can move anywhere without provoking AoOs, but worse in that you can only move up to your speed. Why not make it a direct upgrade and make it so that you can move up to double your speed without provoking?

6) Form of the Avalanche is misspelled.

7) Form of the Sirocco is a bit weird, in that it does slashing damage but targets Reflex instead of AC. Things that target Reflex don't normally (if at all, AFAIK) have weapon damage types. I don't know if there's something fundamentally wrong with it, though. Does it mean that it is subject to DR?

8) You may want to mimic the Rust Monster's Rust more closely on the Form of the Rust Monster. The monster only has one attack (even if it has two antennae). Also, it might make sense to point out that the attack does no damage.

9) When being affected by Form of Summer's Avatar, who chooses the allies' forms: themselves or the warden? Can a fellow warden gain two forms by being affected by this ability?

10) Where is the Flesh to Ice spell referenced in Form of Winter's Avatar from?

11) Can the Form of the Leviathan's Tsunami ability be used on dry land? Also, where is that spell from?

Whew, I guess that's all for now! I hope this can be of help! All in all, I really like the concept and the execution, though the latter can be refined a bit :smallsmile:

EDIT:


I actually see this class as slightly OP.
Good BAB, two good saves and a D12 for HD, then the guardian forms which many of them grant DEX to heighten AC, or STR to improve damage output.
I just see this as very versitile and I'd call it at the least high tier 3, almost calling it tier 2 (Gasp! I know.)
I'd recommend removing spell casting IMO. I think it's nice fluff, but it makes the class very, very versatile.
I could easily see this class abused. But I loooove the concept!
I don't know what else to add. :smallsmile:

How is this class breaking the game again? Is it strong? Certainly. Is it T2 material? Certainly not.

It might make sense to downgrade the HD to d10 though, now that I think about it. It is strong enough that it won't miss 1hp/level. Remember: it can boost its own Con quite reliably.

EDIT2: Forgot to ask this: is the demiplane located in the Ethereal or in the Astral? Or somewhere else entirely?

[Inevitability]

Wow, that's a lot of feedback!

1) I made the action type clearer.

2) Wow, I forgot to make it mind-affecting? Must've been a moment of brain failure... :smallredface: I'll change the saving throw DC, but the time will remain the same.

3)

a) Corrected the spelling error

b) I edited the ability to limit the influence one can have on the plane.

c) Done

d) Done. I thought of it myself too, but I wasn't sure

e) Clarified on that matter

f) The plane can grow now.

g) Made the casting time 1 round.

h) Did it

i) No, but remember that most people won't even know of the plane, and are there any spells for localizing a plane?


4) I didn't really understand what you said. Could you give me an example of how a guardian form should look? I thought I did it correctly. Isn't Claws of the Bear, for example, a good example of how it should be done? I believe my way of writing it down is similar enough.

5) Did it

6) Fixed it

7) It is actually subject to DR. I'll edit it to add that.

8) Fixed it

9) The allies choose it themselves.

10) From Frostburn.

11) Yes it can, and it's from the Spell Compendium.

[Larkas]

4) I didn't really understand what you said. Could you give me an example of how a guardian form should look? I thought I did it correctly. Isn't this a good example of how it should be done? I believe my way of writing it down is similar enough.

The thing is, the game developers aren't very consistent when addressing natural weapons (specially in spells), which doesn't mean we shouldn't strive to. Take a look at what the SRD itself has to say:


When a creature has more than one natural weapon, one of them (or sometimes a pair or set of them) is the primary weapon. All the creature’s remaining natural weapons are secondary.

The primary weapon is given in the creature’s Attack entry, and the primary weapon or weapons is given first in the creature’s Full Attack entry. A creature’s primary natural weapon is its most effective natural attack, usually by virtue of the creature’s physiology, training, or innate talent with the weapon. An attack with a primary natural weapon uses the creature’s full attack bonus. Attacks with secondary natural weapons are less effective and are made with a -5 penalty on the attack roll, no matter how many there are. (Creatures with the Multiattack feat take only a -2 penalty on secondary attacks.) This penalty applies even when the creature makes a single attack with the secondary weapon as part of the attack action or as an attack of opportunity.

When you throw manufactured weapons in the mix, this all reduces in importance:


Some creatures combine attacks with natural and manufactured weapons when they make a full attack. When they do so, the manufactured weapon attack is considered the primary attack unless the creature’s description indicates otherwise and any natural weapons the creature also uses are considered secondary natural attacks. These secondary attacks do not interfere with the primary attack as attacking with an off-hand weapon does, but they take the usual -5 penalty (or -2 with the Multiattack feat) for such attacks, even if the natural weapon used is normally the creature’s primary natural weapon.

But it doesn't fade, since a creature might as well just let go of his sword to fight with his primary claws:


A creature’s primary attack damage includes its full Strength modifier (1½ times its Strength bonus if the attack is with the creature’s sole natural weapon) and is given first. Secondary attacks add only ½ the creature’s Strength bonus and are given second in the parentheses.

In case it's not clear, you can get two claws as your primary weapons. You can still only attack with one if you're not full-attacking. But if you are, then you can add 2x your Str modifier by attacking with both (1x for each), which just might be better than attacking with a two-handed weapon (1.5x Str). An example (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/wolverine.htm), if you will.

This guide (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10994.0) might dispel further confusion.

As for how I'd do it, I'd purge all mention of "+ Str modifier" from the description of all forms (as I've shown, that's pretty much automatic when you set the attack's primary or secondary status). In its place, I'd put something along these lines in the forms' introduction:


Several forms will give you natural weapons. If by using a form you are given just one weapon (such as a bite) or a related pair of weapons (such as a pair of claws), and these are your only natural weapons, then this weapon (or pair of weapons) is your primary weapon.

If, however, you gain more than one natural weapon (or a related pair of them) by using forms, either because the form itself gives them to you or because you used Double Guardian Form, you must choose one of those weapons (or a related pair of them) as your primary weapon. Likewise, if you already had natural weapons before choosing a form, you must choose between your original primary weapon and one of the new gained weapons to be your primary weapon.

A primary weapon attacks at your highest BAB. All weapons that are not primary attack at your highest BAB -5 (-2, if you have Multiattack). Furthermore, a primary weapon gains a bonus to damage equal to 1½ your Strength modifier (1 each, if it's a related pair), while secondary weapons gain only ½ your Strength modifier as a bonus to damage.

If you attack with a manufactured weapon along your natural weapons, all the natural weapons are automatically considered secondary, regardless of their original status.

Example: Kord, the human Warden, decides to use the form of the fierce owlbear. Mimicking a real owlbear, he decides that his new claws are his primary weapons, whereas his new bite is only secondary. Whenever Kord attacks with either of his claws, he does so at his full base attack bonus, and adds his full Strength modifier as a bonus to damage. If, however, he decides to attack with his bite, he does so at his full base attack bonus -5 (Kord doesn't have Multiattack), and only add half his Strength modifier as a bonus to damage. Lastly, if Kord decides to attack with a short sword, one claw and a bite, his short sword receives his full base attack bonus and Strength modifier to damage (and may make iterative attacks), while both his claw and his bite receive his full base attack bonus -5 and half his Strength modifier to damage.

Of course, this could use some rewriting, I just gave some general idea how to do it.

Anyways, I propose creating a new keyword for the warden's usage of forms. Wizards cast spells. Psions manifest powers. Wardens... Shift into forms, maybe?

(Also, refrain from linking to that site. It might bring bad juju to the Playground.)

EDIT: Oh, sorry, almost missed this:


i) No, but remember that most people won't even know of the plane, and are there any spells for localizing a plane?

I don't know of a specific spell, but I wouldn't put it past some divination spells (discern location being the greatest offender). Besides, there might be some ethereal curtains/color pools (depending on whether the demiplane is in the Ethereal or Astral, respectively) that lead directly into the demiplane, though that is entirely DM dependent.

[Inevitability]

I'll take another look at this when I have more time, but thanks for the suggested rewrite!

[Larkas]

No problem! By the way, I like the revision you did to the capstone! Just one question: when he leaves the demiplane, is the aging retroactive? :smalleek:

... That could be interesting. :smallwink:

[Inevitability]

It becomes even more interesting when you realize that Plane Shift can be used offensively... :smalleek:

[Larkas]

It becomes even more interesting when you realize that Plane Shift can be used offensively... :smalleek:

Exactly! And all those little animals plane-side are your friends, so... :smallamused:

[Inevitability]

So...? :smallconfused:

[Larkas]

So...? :smallconfused:

Whoever you bring there will definitely be in for a world of pain.

That is, as much pain as you can inflict with you 3 animal HD... Eh, there's nothing saying you can't bring some friendly dire tiger to live in your demiplane.

[Inevitability]

I was getting at the fact that someone could enter the demiplane, cast plane shift on the warden and watch him wither away. There seems to have been a small miscommunication. I'm sorry for that.