Swordsages, feats and disciplines [3.5]

[Teapot Salty]

Hey guys, so I want to make a swordsage (again) and I was wondering what sort of feats I should take and disciplines I should focus in, as well as weapons to use. The main parts are: Human swordsage-1, stats are (with 28 pb): str 14, dex 14, con 14, int 12, wis 14, cha 8. I was also thinking about playing wood elf if feats aren't that important. I know I want to take lots of diamond mind (insightful strike! Mind of body! Stance of alacrity! this thing is awesome) but if I focus on it totally than I might as well play warblade right? Thanks, and as always, go nuts.

[Vogonjeltz]

Desert Fire would be good at lower levels when you only get 1 attack anyway.

[StreamOfTheSky]

First off...take Adaptive Style. it is your level 1 feat. You might want to consider dropping Wis to 10 for a 16 in your best stat. IMO, the AC bonus isn't much worth it, though I suppose at low levels it helps. Later on it's hard to do better than what an animated mithral heavy shield provides.

Diamond Mind (DM) is probably the best swordsage discipline, yeah. I don't like Saph. NM Blade that much, it's an extra roll to succeed on just for +1d6 damage, it's only worth it for someone with lots of sneak attack. Emerald Razor is decent if you have power attack, though the damage falls behind later on. The insightful strikes are quite good, as are the other NM blades, and the final one, Time Stands Still. Mind Over Body is the only save-replacer I'd bother with. The first two stances aren't terribly useful, but Hearing the Air is one of the best and Stance of Alacrity is great if you have lots of counters.

Stone Dragon (SD) is pretty bad. I'd swipe Mountain Hammer for utility use and Crushing Vise and way later on the 9th level when you've taken the other 9th levels you qualify for. Otherwise leave this one alone. Charging Minotaur can be decent at low levels, granted, just swap it out later. It's nice for not provoking on the movement.

Desert Wind (DW)...also sucks. But Distracting Ember is a decent early buff (and remains good if you get sneak attack) and Flame's Blessing stance is wonderful late-game. There are a few strikes that are cool albeit situational -- Searing Charge, Leaping Flame, Desert Tempest, and Ring of Fire -- that you might also consider.

Setting Sun (SS) doesn't work as advertised. It's horrible for meek little halflings but decent for big hulking brutes, although the damage of the throws is still quite tragic when you consider a trip check will often be harder than an attack at full BAB (plus you could roll a 1 on the touch attack) and that it's replacing normal damage instead of adding to it. Anyone could find use out of Counter Charge, Step of the Wind stance, and Shifting Defense stance, and Mighty Throw is decent as a 1st level option to swap later. At higher levels, Fool's Strike is nice if you have a high attack bonus, and Tornado Throw is just hilarious.

Shadow Hand (SH) has a ton of amazing stances and boosts. All the 1st and 3rd level stances are great and the other two aren't bad either, which is good news since you need to be in one for Shadow Blade feat, which is an option many swordsages pursue. Cloak of Deception and the teleport ones are handy for many situations, not just combat. Not as many counters, but the high level One With Shadow is incredible. As for strikes...the discipline doesn't offer much until the 8th and 9th level strikes. Shadow Blade Tech is nice more for picking the higher of 2d20 than any actual damage bonus or special attack, while Shadow Garrote is a vanilla but solid ranged attack option. Hand of Death will likely have a low save DC for you, but can end a fight fast. Those are the only SH strikes I'd consider taking before the 8th and 9th level ones, so don't spend a Discipline Focus (Insightful Strikes) here.

Tiger Claw (TC) is an all around solid discipline, mostly filled with strikes and boosts. It supports TWF with Wolf Fang Strike and a ton of other things useful to anyone (just most useful for TWF) -- Sudden Leap, Pouncing Charge, Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip, Dancing Mongoose and the other similar boost... For single weapon users, the useful to anyone maneuvers combine w/ a bunch of ones that involve leaping and doing big single hit damage. Claw at the Moon is decent at low levels, Death from Above is disappointing unless you have sneak attack, Soaring Raptor Strike is amazing if a small race, Swooping Dragon Strike is borderline overpowered/broken, and the 9th level is an instant death attack. Then there's a bunch that do hefty bonus damage but impart an AC penalty. TC also has great stances, especially Hunter's Sense (gets obsoleted by Hearing the Air later on though, IMO), Leaping Dragon (it adds ten FEET to jumps!), and the 8th level Wolf Pack Tactics is one of the best final stances in the book. The only one that outright sucks is the (oddly placed) 7th level stance.

So yeah...DM, TC, and SH are the best and DM and TC combine really well together, too. I'd take strikes mostly from DM and TC, boosts from TC and SH, counters from DM mostly and some SH/SS, and stances... DM, TC, and SH all are good here. SH best at low levels, DM at higher, TC good throughout. I usually take Shadow Blade feat and thus mostly stick to being in SH stances (once I have Assassin's, I go for Staggering Strike feat, and possibly Craven) for combat, with other discipline stances for utility/situational stuff (basically picking among Flame's Blessing, Step of the Wind, Hunter's Sense or Hearing the Air).
As a swordsage, you should be able to "focus" on three entire disciplines simultaneously, and maybe even have room for smatterings from others. 9th level maneuvers at most require 5 others known, and you'll have 26 maneuvers and 6 stances (they count for "maneuvers known" requirements) by level 20. So at most, you'd only "need" to devote at most 18 of your 32 maneuvers and stances to grab three 9th level maneuvers (plus SD's has no requirements) and have plenty left over for other things, the larger issue is you'll probably want to invest more than the minimum in your preferred disciplines. :smallbiggrin:

[Teapot Salty]

Dude...thanks, that is awesome. I kinda wanna play halfling now as well, and If I do, do I take adaptive style or shadow blade first? Should I dump str if I'm playing a human and take shadow blade?


Also, for maneuvers and stances this is what I'm thinking:

Stance: child of shadow
Maneuvers: Burning blade
shadow blade technique
mighty throw
counter charge
sapphire nightmare blade
wolf fang strike

Any good?

[StreamOfTheSky]

Dude...thanks, that is awesome. I kinda wanna play halfling now as well, and If I do, do I take adaptive style or shadow blade first? Should I dump str if I'm playing a human and take shadow blade?

Always take Adaptive Style first.

If you do Strongheart Halfling, you can be small *and* get a feat.

Otherwise...my preferred Swordsage race is actually Whisper Gnome. Aside from the usual great racial stuff, it has the +4 dodge vs. giants, so you can then take Desert Wind Dodge and Titan Fighting feats and get +4 AC vs. nearly everybody as long as you move 10+ ft per round, combines wel with Child of Shadow before Assassin's Stance comes online. Swordsage is incredibly feat starved, though, flaws help immensely. I do also often resort to doing a multiclass with martial ("feat") rogue for 2 or 4 levels to shore up more feats.

As for neglecting strength...keep in mind that Shadow Blade does not *replace* str to damage, it just also adds Dex. So you don't want a penalty, and if you're doing 2-handed (spiked chain, perhaps), str is giving 1.5x to damage vs. 1x for dex and having str highest saves you a feat on finesse. It is more attractive for a high point buy game where you can afford to have multiple high stats (or you dump wisdom and just use an animated shield), might not be as good for your situation. I mean, if dex is only +2, shadow blade is just a more situational weapon specialization. Of course, as you gain levels and get stat boosting items it gets better, but you might want to not bother w/ shadow blade or at least hold off on it till later.

[Red Fel]

I absolutely agree with taking Adaptive Style first. It's basically the feat tax for playing Swordsage. Remember that it allows you to reassign all of your maneuvers readied, and refreshes them - which means you can also use it to reassign the maneuvers you already had, so it gives you a substantially more effective refresh mechanism.

If you're considering playing a Halfling or other Small race, consider taking the Underfoot Combat and Confound the Big Folk feats from Races of the Wild. The first allows you to invade the space of any Large or larger creature (Large is your size +2, as opposed to the usual your size +3) and avoid AoOs as you do so, and gain cover. The second is a tactical feat that, frankly, allows you to butcher a larger opponent. In particular, read the Underfoot Defense option (the second) - if you fight defensively (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#fightingDefensivelyasaFullRoun dAction) (take -4 to attacks for a +2 dodge bonus to AC), any attack made against you has a 50% chance to hit the big guy you're hiding under. Ordinarily, that's kinda sweet, but consider this - you don't have to use this against an enemy. If there's a large beatstick in your party, you can hide underneath him, fight defensively, and redirect attacks to him. (It might annoy him, but this is one of the few instances where tanking can actually work.)

[Teapot Salty]

Hmm, I'm seriously considering whisper gnome, but I also want about 14 str, it really depends on what weapons I use.

[Red Fel]

Hmm, I'm seriously considering whisper gnome, but I also want about 14 str, it really depends on what weapons I use.

Well, it also depends on what disciplines you want to use. For example, Diamond Mind works well with anything for the counters, but Shadow Hand and Setting Sun work better with higher Dex. Tiger Claw's jump checks require a certain amount of Str, but by the same token it goes nicely with a Dex-based dual-wielding crit-fishing build. Stone Dragon really requires powerful Str attacks to maximize, whereas Desert Wind requires mobility (which is usually more associated with Dex-type builds).

The other point to remember, though, is that the Swordsage isn't the in-your-face combatant that Crusader or Warblade can be. As its choice of disciplines suggests, Swordsage is commonly expected to be lighter, faster and more mobile, relying more on dodge AC than armor AC. (It's the Monk or Rogue equivalent in the book.) So while Str is a popular choice for combat builds, it might be wiser to play to your strengths (no pun intended) rather than to shore up your weaknesses.

As an aside, are you planning on going straight Swordsage, or classing out? The nice thing about ToB classes is that they're fine choices from beginning to end, so staying in is a perfectly legitimate choice. That said, if you are planning to class out, it would probably be a good idea to plan ahead for it.

[Teapot Salty]

Well, it also depends on what disciplines you want to use. For example, Diamond Mind works well with anything for the counters, but Shadow Hand and Setting Sun work better with higher Dex. Tiger Claw's jump checks require a certain amount of Str, but by the same token it goes nicely with a Dex-based dual-wielding crit-fishing build. Stone Dragon really requires powerful Str attacks to maximize, whereas Desert Wind requires mobility (which is usually more associated with Dex-type builds).

The other point to remember, though, is that the Swordsage isn't the in-your-face combatant that Crusader or Warblade can be. As its choice of disciplines suggests, Swordsage is commonly expected to be lighter, faster and more mobile, relying more on dodge AC than armor AC. (It's the Monk or Rogue equivalent in the book.) So while Str is a popular choice for combat builds, it might be wiser to play to your strengths (no pun intended) rather than to shore up your weaknesses.

As an aside, are you planning on going straight Swordsage, or classing out? The nice thing about ToB classes is that they're fine choices from beginning to end, so staying in is a perfectly legitimate choice. That said, if you are planning to class out, it would probably be a good idea to plan ahead for it.

Probably swordsage 20. I will probably focus in shadow hand/diamond mind. It's really between two hander and twf, and I for one, do not want to spend a million feats.