Lets get Eeeeeeeevil!

[Yaitanos]

Emphasize those vowels!

So, I'm looking to play a wicked character with an interesting class I found that requires that you be an outsider with the evil subtype, and since I can't find those drow blood elixirs for the life of me I'm wondering if there are low level adjustment races that meet that requirement. Or perhaps a feat that gives the requisite subtype and whatnot.

[Gildedragon]

LA0 Tiefling (not lesser tiefling) take the half fiend transition class

I think the feyiri have the evil subtype

Imp

[hamishspence]

There's a ritual that gives the subtype, in Savage Species. A bit pricey in gold though.

[Yaitanos]

LA0 Tiefling (not lesser tiefling) take the half fiend transition class

I think the feyiri have the evil subtype

Imp

Imp has a 7 lvl racial advancement, little higher than I'd like. Where is this half fiend transition class you speak of?

[Yaitanos]

There's a ritual that gives the subtype, in Savage Species. A bit pricey in gold though.

Whew! That is one pricy ritual! A lot more than I can pay at the low lvl I'd like to play this character.

[Kazudo]

Acolyte of the Skin's capstone makes you an outsider. If you can find the Evil subtype some other way that would fix the issue, but I fear at the cost of making more of one.

[Red Fel]

Let's see...

The Bebelith Blessing spell from Drow of the Underdark causes the subject to be treated as an Outsider (Evil) for the duration, in addition to its regular types.

The Demonbinder (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070430a&page=3) PrC (not to be confused with the Nar Demonbinder), also from Drow of the Underdark, gives you the (Evil) subtype, but not the Outsider type. However, if you manage to play an Outsider (Native), such as a Tiefling or Diabolus, you're halfway there.

The capstone of the Winterhaunt of Iborighu PrC, from Frostburn, makes you an Elemental (Evil), so you have the right subtype but the wrong type.

If you've got 3.0 content available, the Demonic Blood Infusion spell from Ghostwalk is Bebelith Blessing's bigger, badder brother, granting the Fiendish template, treating the target as an Outsider (Chaotic, Evil) for the duration, and lasting for hours/level instead of rounds/level.

Also, I mentioned a Diabolus earlier - it's an Outsider (Native, Chaotic) from Dragon Compendium with a +1 LA. If DragComp is available, consider starting there, and finding a way to gain the (Evil) subtype.

If you don't want to play as a Native Outsider, consider the Knight of the Sacred Seal PrC from Tome of Magic; at level 5, you gain the Outsider (Native) type and subtype. Find a way to gain the (Evil) subtype, and you're golden.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Kaorti in Fiend Folio are 2 HD, +2 LA Outsider (Evil) and can make Kaorti Resin weapons (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031014a).

Bladeling in MM2 is a 1 HD (replaced by your first class level), +1 LA Outsider (Lawful), and if you also make it a Divine Minion (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050209a) of Sebek it becomes +2 LA Outsider (Evil) that can Wild Shape into a crocodile and back at will as a free action, which includes healing every time you do it.

[Gildedragon]

Sorry half fiend don't give [evil] but the transition class is on the wizard's site. Just google it.
Divine minion seems the way to go, can be applied to any char as well
Also if you're gonna eat the LA go Set

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Sorry half fiend don't give [evil] but the transition class is on the wizard's site. Just google it.
Divine minion seems the way to go, can be applied to any char as well
Also if you're gonna eat the LA go Set

Divine Minion only changes an existing alignment subtype to match the deity you choose, so adding it to a Tiefling or similar will result in a character without any alignment subtypes. You need to apply it to a race that already has an alignment subtype.

A Divine Minion of Sebek gets only +1 LA more, whereas a Divine Minion of Set adds +2 LA, so it's not really worth it, especially if he dips a few levels of Master of Many Forms.

[Yaitanos]

Let's see...

The Bebelith Blessing spell from Drow of the Underdark causes the subject to be treated as an Outsider (Evil) for the duration, in addition to its regular types.

The Demonbinder (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070430a&page=3) PrC (not to be confused with the Nar Demonbinder), also from Drow of the Underdark, gives you the (Evil) subtype, but not the Outsider type. However, if you manage to play an Outsider (Native), such as a Tiefling or Diabolus, you're halfway there.

The capstone of the Winterhaunt of Iborighu PrC, from Frostburn, makes you an Elemental (Evil), so you have the right subtype but the wrong type.

If you've got 3.0 content available, the Demonic Blood Infusion spell from Ghostwalk is Bebelith Blessing's bigger, badder brother, granting the Fiendish template, treating the target as an Outsider (Chaotic, Evil) for the duration, and lasting for hours/level instead of rounds/level.

Also, I mentioned a Diabolus earlier - it's an Outsider (Native, Chaotic) from Dragon Compendium with a +1 LA. If DragComp is available, consider starting there, and finding a way to gain the (Evil) subtype.

If you don't want to play as a Native Outsider, consider the Knight of the Sacred Seal PrC from Tome of Magic; at level 5, you gain the Outsider (Native) type and subtype. Find a way to gain the (Evil) subtype, and you're golden.

These are all great ways to be an outsider, which is the part that I don't have an issue with. What I need is the bloody subtype.

[Urpriest]

Imp has a 7 lvl racial advancement, little higher than I'd like. Where is this half fiend transition class you speak of?

Nobody but you has brought up Imp,


These are all great ways to be an outsider, which is the part that I don't have an issue with. What I need is the bloody subtype.

and all but the last two suggestions in that post give you the subtype.

Anyway, this is an old problem, because you need Outsider (Evil) for the Fiend of Possession class. The entry tactics in this thread (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7518.0) should be helpful, there will likely not be any better options out there.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

These are all great ways to be an outsider, which is the part that I don't have an issue with. What I need is the bloody subtype.

As I said, a Bladeling Divine Minion of Sebek is a +2 LA Outsider [Evil], it has only one racial HD so you should be able to replace that with your first class level. You can buy off the level adjustment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm).

[Yaitanos]

Nobody but you has brought up Imp,



and all but the last two suggestions in that post give you the subtype.

Anyway, this is an old problem, because you need Outsider (Evil) for the Fiend of Possession class. The entry tactics in this thread (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7518.0) should be helpful, there will likely not be any better options out there.

Second post, last line was imp. And yes they do, however most of them give them to me on a temporary basis when I need them permanent, or after a prestige class when I mentioned I wanted to do this at a low lvl. I will look through this thread you have linked me.

[Urpriest]

Second post, last line was imp. And yes they do, however most of them give them to me on a temporary basis when I need them permanent, or after a prestige class when I mentioned I wanted to do this at a low lvl. I will look through this thread you have linked me.

Ah, hadn't noticed...I guess I just mentally put the one-word final note as a sig, rather than a suggestion. :smalltongue:

Do you actually need the subtype permanently? RAW, you only need it at the moment you level up, if you're using it for qualifying for a PrC.

[The Viscount]

In the interests of completeness, neraph is an outsider with an LA of 0, plus it gives you an excuse to make battletoads jokes.

Divine disciple makes you an outsider with the subtype of your deity, but gives it to you at ECL 12 (10 if you do some shenanigans)

[Shining Wrath]

Nightmare (LA + 4)?
Howler (LA + 3)?

Usually cohorts but the LA is given.

[Kazudo]

Monk 20 makes you an outsider. Depending on how you read it.

[Svata]

Monk 20? I thought it only had 2 levels.

[Kazudo]

Monk 20? I thought it only had 2 levels.

Yeah, I thought the same about Fighter and Barbarian too.

[pwykersotz]

Let's see...

The Bebelith Blessing spell from Drow of the Underdark causes the subject to be treated as an Outsider (Evil) for the duration, in addition to its regular types.

The Demonbinder (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070430a&page=3) PrC (not to be confused with the Nar Demonbinder), also from Drow of the Underdark, gives you the (Evil) subtype, but not the Outsider type. However, if you manage to play an Outsider (Native), such as a Tiefling or Diabolus, you're halfway there.

The capstone of the Winterhaunt of Iborighu PrC, from Frostburn, makes you an Elemental (Evil), so you have the right subtype but the wrong type.

If you've got 3.0 content available, the Demonic Blood Infusion spell from Ghostwalk is Bebelith Blessing's bigger, badder brother, granting the Fiendish template, treating the target as an Outsider (Chaotic, Evil) for the duration, and lasting for hours/level instead of rounds/level.

Also, I mentioned a Diabolus earlier - it's an Outsider (Native, Chaotic) from Dragon Compendium with a +1 LA. If DragComp is available, consider starting there, and finding a way to gain the (Evil) subtype.

If you don't want to play as a Native Outsider, consider the Knight of the Sacred Seal PrC from Tome of Magic; at level 5, you gain the Outsider (Native) type and subtype. Find a way to gain the (Evil) subtype, and you're golden.

Red Fel, your knowledge of Faustian pacts and the readiness with which you supply information on turning pure evil has me a little wary of you now...

[Red Fel]

Red Fel, your knowledge of Faustian pacts and the readiness with which you supply information on turning pure evil has me a little wary of you now...

... Only now?

[Shining Wrath]

... Only now?

You're slipping, dude. Up the purple text.

[The Viscount]

Monk 20 makes you an outsider. Depending on how you read it.

It.....does not. You are treated as an outsider for effects, but you are not an outsider. The subject is made more confusing since several classes which actually do change your type to outsider refer to this class feature.

[Kazudo]

She is forevermore treated as an outsider rather than as a humanoid (or whatever the monk’s creature type was)




Unlike other outsiders, the monk can still be brought back from the dead as if she were a member of her previous creature type.


That seems by my caveman-esque reading to imply that the type does change, since the original creature type is referred to as "previous creature type" and the monk is referred to in terms of actually being an outsider.

[Yaitanos]

It.....does not. You are treated as an outsider for effects, but you are not an outsider. The subject is made more confusing since several classes which actually do change your type to outsider refer to this class feature.

Counting as an outsider would work for this actually.



Do you actually need the subtype permanently? RAW, you only need it at the moment you level up, if you're using it for qualifying for a PrC.


According to my DM, the moment you stop qualifying for the prestige class, you lose all it's abilities. If you can find me the exact line, which page and what book that clearly states otherwise, I have to have the subtype permanently.

Now, I've also confirmed this with him and could perhaps talk him into letting me have done this at 3rd lvl; A limited wish would give me the subtype. I can make the checks involved for a sacrifice, and afford the scrolls that would let me do so. The hardest part would be getting someone to sacrifice, but not really an issue. All I would have to do is word it just right as to ONLY gain the subtype. I will give my character max ranks in Knowledge(bureaucracy) to justify him working on the line, but out of game I need a solid line to feed my DM for it. Any suggestions?

[Urpriest]

According to my DM, the moment you stop qualifying for the prestige class, you lose all it's abilities. If you can find me the exact line, which page and what book that clearly states otherwise, I have to have the subtype permanently.

There are two books that have rules like this, Complete Warrior and Complete Arcane. The rules are different in the two different books, and arguably don't apply to prestige classes from other books (an argument I don't want to go into, you can look it up if you like). If your DM is using that kind of rule, which source is he using for it?

[Kazudo]

It could be that he's using a house rule, as the rules in CWar and CArc don't apply elsewhere due to source stacking rules. That's not to say that it wouldn't be a completely understandable houserule, but it would cause a lot of problems and create limitations where there need not be any.

[Yaitanos]

If your DM is using that kind of rule, which source is he using for it?

He says it explicitly says somewhere if you lose the qualifications you lose the abilities of the class. Not gonna argue with him on it, he's usually right about that stuff.

But about that wish...

[Urpriest]

He says it explicitly says somewhere if you lose the qualifications you lose the abilities of the class. Not gonna argue with him on it, he's usually right about that stuff.

And I don't doubt it. But it would still be nice to know which "somewhere" he's using, since the two places say different things.



But about that wish...

Well, it's my position that Wish never states that the demand needs to be stated "in-character"...the character decides what they want, but RAW they don't have to put it into words. Your DM probably won't agree though. :smalltongue:

I'd phrase it directly in terms of which class you're going for: "taint me with evil so that I may learn the secrets of X", that kind of thing. If your DM has explicitly said "you can get the subtype with a Limited Wish" then they're not likely to give you something else too, as that would be beyond the power of the spell.

[Kazudo]

Well, it's my position that Wish never states that the demand needs to be stated "in-character"...the character decides what they want, but RAW they don't have to put it into words. Your DM probably won't agree though.

I typically agree if the wish is cast by the individual in question. If the individual has to impart to someone else casting the wish, then that's where I'd disagree and say that specificity is important depending on the person casting the wish. Similar to writing the code yourself versus having to explain to someone else what you want the code to do. If you're not clear, you'll get something unlike what you want, or like what you want but with caveats.

[Yaitanos]

And I don't doubt it. But it would still be nice to know which "somewhere" he's using, since the two places say different things.

Yes, yes it would. Getting him to remember what book though is like asking me to remember who last years super bowl. Ain't happening without some research.



Well, it's my position that Wish never states that the demand needs to be stated "in-character"...the character decides what they want, but RAW they don't have to put it into words. Your DM probably won't agree though. :smalltongue:

I'd phrase it directly in terms of which class you're going for: "taint me with evil so that I may learn the secrets of X", that kind of thing. If your DM has explicitly said "you can get the subtype with a Limited Wish" then they're not likely to give you something else too, as that would be beyond the power of the spell.

I have been screwed by a misspoken wish before with him, not by me of course. I know better than to risk a wish given to me by an efreeti. I have to word it very carefully, and I'm sure that he'd allow me to do it out of game, but if I ask for the evil subtype, he may just turn me into something that has it. Level adj, racial class levels and all that jazz. Hell, might even put me on a racial progression to become a pit fiend. While that would be cool, would keep me from playing the character as I want to play him.

[unseenmage]

Emphasize those vowels!

...well there's EVIL afoot! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VeoOCegLn8)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Why don't you just take a +2 LA to be a naturally Outsider [Evil] race, then buy off that level adjustment?

[Yaitanos]

Why don't you just take a +2 LA to be a naturally Outsider [Evil] race, then buy off that level adjustment?

Unless yer suggesting I just add the Outsider(evil) to a standard race in exchange for a +2 lvl adj, I'd love to know what race of outsider has only a +2 lvl adj and no racial levels.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Unless yer suggesting I just add the Outsider(evil) to a standard race in exchange for a +2 lvl adj, I'd love to know what race of outsider has only a +2 lvl adj and no racial levels.

Twice in this very thread I pointed this out:


As I said, a Bladeling Divine Minion of Sebek is a +2 LA Outsider [Evil], it has only one racial HD so you should be able to replace that with your first class level. You can buy off the level adjustment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm).

[Yaitanos]

Well I've gone through this stuff thoroughly, and even looked at bladeling (do not care for the race and it just seems too much)
and here is the build that I have decided on. Lemme know what you think.

Race- Dark Elf (kingdoms of kalamar, basically a lesser drow)
Template- Magic Blooded
Traits- Quick x2
Flaws- Vunerable x2
Will be purchasing the Fiendish Graft (Whip tail) ASAP and performing a sacrifice for Limited Wish at 3 HD to get the evil subtype.

Lvl- class- feat(s)
1- Bard- Otherworldly, Otherworldly Countenance, Skill Focus(UMD)
2- Warlock-
3- Bloodline(devil[major])-
4- Bard- Two weapon fighting
5- FOP-
6- Bloodline(devil[major])-
7- FOP-
8- FOP- Prehensile Tail

[Yaitanos]

No comments on the build? Well either I wowed you all into silence with how awesome the design is, or you're all unconscious from face-palming too hard. For the sake of my fragile ego I'll say yer wowed.

[Yaitanos]

So is there a way to enhance the ally stat bonus that the FoP class gives?