[3.5] Manipulative Bard Help

[A.A.King]

Race: Half-Elf
Alignment: Neutral Evil


Stats: (32-Point buy)
STR: 08 DEX: 14 CON: 12 INT: 16 WIS: 10 CHA: 16

Class: Bardic Sage 6
ACF:
Inspire Courage -> Inspire Awe (Dragon Magic)
Counter Song -> Soothing Voice (Races of Destiny)
Inspire Competence -> Soothe the Beast (Ebberon Campaign Setting)
Feats:
1. Melodic Casting
3. Obtain Familiar (Raven or Parrot)
6. Haunting Melody
I'm a simple person, so I just chose 9 skills to max

1. Perform (Wind Instrument)
2. Perform (Oratory)
3. Bluff
4. Diplomacy
5. Sense Motive
6. Use Magic Device
7. Spellcraft
8. Knowledge (Arcana) for 5 ranks then -> Craft (Alchemy)
9. Gather Information

Because of Baric Sage I get one extra divination spell known for each spell level which is the spell known at the 0. slot. I'm also mainly chosing spells for fringe situations. As a bard you don't get a lot of spell so the smart thing IMO is not to build around them. No attack spells but "just in case" spells like Comprehend Language and Tongues. Combinations like Comprehend Language and Scholars Touch will make sure that my database will know no limits.
0th Level
0. Read Magic
1. Detect Magic
2. Message
3. Lullaby
4. Songbird
5. Prestidigitation
6. Dancing Lights (Because I couldn't think of a better 0th level spell)
1st Level
0. Scholar's Touch
1. Alibi
2. Cure Light Wounds (I like knowing these)
3. Comprehend Language
4. Expeditious Retreat
2nd Level
0. Tongues
1. Eagles Splendor
2. Glitterdust
3. Magic Savant

Future Spells
Glibbnes (3th Level)
Listening Coin (4th level)

I'm trying to create a person who has perfected the art of manipulating people. Kind of a "power behind the throne" type of character who tries to steer other people into doing things which are most favorable fro him. Fascinate, Soothing Voice, Inspire Awe and Suggestion are all great bardic music songs which allow me to influence NPCs such that it is easier for me to get what I want. He also needs to be knowledgeable, because you need to have all the information before you can correctly chose the path (in a chessmaster kind of way) which is most favorable to you.

My problem stems from the Skill and Spell section. I've got 9 Skill ranks per level and I'm not sure what to invest it in.
Perform, UMD, Bluff, Diplomacy, Sense Motive are all obvious choices, I need atleast 4 ranks in both Knowledge (Arcana) and Spellcraft for Obtain Familiar and Melodic Casting respectively. Now I'm thinking of adding "Gather Information" to that list to increase my knowledge and maybe 5 ranks in Knowledge (Local) for a +2 Synergy bonus but I'm not sure if you really need Gather Information if you already have Bardic Knowledge. What skills (+ possibly future feats) might really help the Knowledge part or the Manipulation part of the build?

And what spells are best for this kind of bard?

[Gildedragon]

Question: can you take the magic blooded template? it has no LA and boosts your cha a bit. if not cool.
so let's get down to brass tacks:

Bluff is a must; max it
Diplo is handy, more useful to you than intimidate
Sense Motive
these you max out
Possibly also UMD
Ditto for Concentration

Kn nobility 5 ranks for diplo synergy + Spellcraft 4 (this uses up one of your skill tracks, 9 ranks over 6 levels)
Kn history 5 ranks for bardic synergy + Kn Arcana 4 (ditto)

Perform 1 or 2 types, just enough for your music. Oratory would be a sensible one, you enchant ppl with your words. You probably don't need to max it

Gather info is handy, as it lets you have a eyes and ears, and you already have a +2 bonus to it

---

Check the Half Elf Bard substitution levels. You want spells that boost your skillchecks; if you can somehow boost your Bluff +50 you can instill suggestions into the target (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#bluff)

Feat: Karmic Twin from OA gives you a +2 to all charisma checks (skills etc)

Also if you don't mind being a bit... sager: Old and Necropolitan are excellent things, the former gives you +2 to your mental stats (10 skillpoints rather than 9) and the latter makes you capable of dumping Con.

[nedz]

Spells:
Eagles Splendour and Glibness are obvious choices, though you won't get the latter until 7th.
Charm Person and Undersong perhaps ?
Disguise Self and Tongues are also useful.

[A.A.King]

Question: can you take the magic blooded template? it has no LA and boosts your cha a bit. if not cool.
so let's get down to brass tacks:

Check the Half Elf Bard substitution levels. You want spells that boost your skillchecks; if you can somehow boost your Bluff +50 you can instill suggestions into the target (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#bluff)


Magic-Blooded is a very nice template, I might consider that. And I already have the first Half-Elf Bard substitution level in my plan (it gives me "Soothing Voice")



Spells:
Eagles Splendour and Glibness are obvious choices, though you won't get the latter until 7th.
Charm Person and Undersong perhaps ?
Disguise Self and Tongues are also useful.

Tongues and Eagle's Splendor are definitely goo choices.
When it comes to Charm Person I feel that it won't be that helpful considering the fact I have a maxed Diplomacy score and limited amount of spells per day.
Doesn't Melodic Casting help most of the time already at what Undersong does?

[Gildedragon]

Also take not of the Unseelie template (further bonus to cha) but it has a particular very handy power: living non-fey within 5' suffer a morale penalty on saves equal to your Charisma bonus. No save for that. So walk up close to someone, and suggestion them...

[rg9000]

Wait, don't bards have to be chaotic?
Is it just unlawful?

[A.A.King]

Also take not of the Unseelie template (further bonus to cha) but it has a particular very handy power: living non-fey within 5' suffer a morale penalty on saves equal to your Charisma bonus. No save for that. So walk up close to someone, and suggestion them...
It's quite the powerful template, but I don't think you can convince a DM that the template is just +0.


Wait, don't bards have to be chaotic?
Is it just unlawful?

Yes, bards simply can't be lawful, they can be neutral. And the Bardic Sage variant I'm using (from UA) can't be chaotic either.

[Gildedragon]

Fair enough.
Clebdacher Glammerweave (Sharn: CoT)
A pair of ornate (dr 358) poison rings (dr comp) one for Diplo one for intimidate. Or one can be a bladed fan, tucked into your belt.
Feycraft (DM2) dastana (OA) to get a bluff bonus and they just look like bracers. Mithril or Gold (MoF) for extra fancy.
Dolweave (MoE) headress or hat or scarf to boost your intimidate

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

For a fear bard, you'll want to use Desert Half-Orc (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/environmentalRacialVariants.htm#desertHalfOrcs), with the Half-Humans variant on page 150 of Races of Destiny to be a Humanoid (Human) instead of Humanoid (Orc), thus qualifying for human-only feats rather than orc-only feats.

Your build should go (Savage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bardVariantSavageBard) ) Bard 8/ Nightmare Spinner 1/ Dread Witch 1/ Sublime Chord 2/ Dread Witch 4/ Nightmare Spinner 4. Swap Inspire Courage for Inspire Awe from Dragon Magic, trade Bardic Knowledge for Bardic Knack in PH2, Fascinate for Healing Hymn in CC, get Haunting Melody instead of Suggestion per the Bard class entry in ECS, and replace Countersong with Spellbreaker Song from CM. Every prestige class level after Sublime Chord should advance your Sublime Chord casting, of course. You want to take those initial levels of Dread Witch and Nightmare Spinner as early as possible, you can take Dread Witch after Bard 4 and that gets you Intimidate as a class skill.

Take two flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm), I'd recommend Bravado from Dragon 328 (can't gain Dodge bonuses to AC, can't use the withdraw action) and City Slicker in Dragon 324 (-4 to Handle Animal, Kn: Nature, and Survival checks, must use Savage Bard to get this). Your feats should include Dreadful Wrath (PGtF), Melodic Casting (CM), Able Learner (RoD), Imperious Command (DotU), and Fell Frighten Spell (LM). Say he visited the Otyugh Hole detailed in Complete Scoundrel to get Menacing Demeanor for 3,000 gp instead of spending a feat on it. Also consider Obtain Familiar (CA) and Improved Familiar (CW, DMG).

Skills, other than prerequisites, should include max ranks in Intimidate, Perform, and Use Magic Device. Definitely get as many skill tricks (CS) as possible, especially Never Outnumbered and Back On Your Feet. Your familiar is a Krenshar, its Scare DC will increase based on your level (10 + 1/2 HD + Cha bonus), and it can make Intimidate checks using your skill ranks. An Imp or Quasit familiar would also be extremely useful, especially the Imp due to its Suggestion spell-like ability.

Get a custom Runestaff (MIC p224) to get around the limited number of spells known. You can even get spells from other class lists on it, and make a UMD DC 21 check when you attune to it each day to use those spells as though they were on your Bard list. Good choices would include Web, Bands of Steel, Black Tentacles, Rope Trick, Command Undead, Kelpstrand, Briar Web, Entangle, Power Word: Pain, Kelgore's Grave Mist, etc. Any spell that deals damage over several rounds with Fell Frighten Spell will inflict its fear effect each time it deals damage, or escalate an existing fear effect each time. You can also include long duration buffs that you don't expect to cast more than once each day to save spells known, such as Greater Resistance, or situational spells like Mass Resist Energy.

Plan to get a +1 Mithral Breastplate with the Fearsome property (DotU, +5,000 gp, DotU was printed after MIC so its version is the current one), a Circlet of Rapid Casting (MIC, 15,000 gp), a Mask of the Matriarch (DotU, 9,000 gp), and a Shadow Cloak (DotU, 5,500 gp). Also get some wands of useful low level spells that you can UMD like Web, and an Eternal Wand (MIC) of Hound of Doom (CW) is just awesome.

You should probably have a pretty good idea of what this character does. Keep in mind that per the Rules Compendium page 53 regarding escalating fear effects, "When such multiple exposures occur, the worst stage of fear lasts until the duration of all the effects causing the fear expire." So your Dreadful Wrath feat causes opponents to save or become Shaken (no action). You can activate Inspire Awe plus Haunting Melody to force opponents to save versus two separate Shaken conditions (standard action). You can use the Demoralize action plus Never Outnumbered once per encounter to cause every opponent within ten feet to become Shaken (move action) plus they'll cower for a round due to Imperious Command. You can cast a Fell Frighten Sound Burst or similar to cause anyone who takes damage to be automatically Shaken (standard action, or swift with the circlet). You have many other abilities which inflict a Shaken condition on opponents, plus your Krenshar familiar can activate its racial Scare ability and use intimidate to demoralize opponents as well. A Shaken opponent who would become Shaken is instead Frightened, a Frightened opponent who would become Shaken is instead Panicked, and a Panicked creature who is prevented from fleeing such as by Web or Entangle or Kelpstrand will instead Cower for the duration of the fear or until they can escape. You can buff your party with spells like Haste, crowd control opponents, and be generally useful otherwise. Most of your actions in combat should probably be spent casting spells or demoralizing opponents, even using your move action to do a second one each round.

[Gildedragon]

The OP isn't making a fear bard though. They are making a grey eminence, bluff, diplo and enchantments are the things to max.

Edit: instead of the rings: a quarterstaff you use as cane (or a sword cane)
Give it a snake head, get a parrot familiar, grow a goatee... You know where I am going with this.

[A.A.King]

For a fear bard, ...

I'm not making a fear bard...


The OP isn't making a fear bard though. They are making a grey eminence, bluff, diplo and enchantments are the things to max.

Edit: instead of the rings: a quarterstaff you use as cane (or a sword cane)
Give it a snake head, get a parrot familiar, grow a goatee... You know where I am going with this.

I very much know where you are going with this. And the parrot is definitely already there. I'm rather fond of the image of the parrot and me ganging up on someone when trying to manipulate the guy into doing what I want. (chrunch: Parrot Aids me for a +2 on a social thing).
I wanted to give him a Flute Cane but a sword cane is nice too. Are there stats for a Sword Cane?

[Gildedragon]

Yes. Afb but if memory serves me right: drag com has them
Or C.Sc
Or A&EG
Or Secrets of Sarlona
I can try an' look it up later
Found it: wasn't any of them.
Cityscape Web Enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070314a)

Make a couple crackers (potions) of tongues/one shot pearls of speech
Feed it one before you guys have to get a talking

On skills: you prolly want craft (alchemy) to make various ointments and potions (and poisons)
Probably focusing on wis damaging poisons and Cha boosting special goodies

[A.A.King]

That's a very interesting weapon, but I think that a light crossbow will be a better weapon for the moments that I will have to fight (instead of Inspiring Awe). I don't really have the Con nor the Str to be in melee.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

...
Inspire Courage -> Inspire Awe (Dragon Magic)
...
6. Haunting Melody
...

Fear effects are powerful if you can stack them up, mediocre otherwise. You can use the Half-Humans variant in Races of Destiny for a Half-Elf, and take a flaw to get Dreadful Wrath at 1st. That has the added benefit of triggering when you cast a spell on anyone, including enchantments such as Charm Person or Suggestion, so they'll have to save or be Shaken which will impose a -2 penalty to save vs the spell that triggered it!

At least trade your Suggestion song for Haunting Melody, considering the Suggestion song only works on targets affected by your Fascinate song, so they get an extra save to be unaffected. You'd be better off just casting Suggestion, and/or taking Improved Familiar at 6th to gain an Imp at 7th (and don't get any familiar at all before that) which can use Suggestion as well.

[Gildedragon]

Feycraft shortsword (or daggers) insta-finesse

[A.A.King]

Fear effects are powerful if you can stack them up, mediocre otherwise. You can use the Half-Humans variant in Races of Destiny for a Half-Elf, and take a flaw to get Dreadful Wrath at 1st. That has the added benefit of triggering when you cast a spell on anyone, including enchantments such as Charm Person or Suggestion, so they'll have to save or be Shaken which will impose a -2 penalty to save vs the spell that triggered it!

At least trade your Suggestion song for Haunting Melody, considering the Suggestion song only works on targets affected by your Fascinate song, so they get an extra save to be unaffected. You'd be better off just casting Suggestion, and/or taking Improved Familiar at 6th to gain an Imp at 7th (and don't get any familiar at all before that) which can use Suggestion as well.

Hmmm, I figured that having Haunting Melody stacking on Inspire Awe was good enough for doing a little debuffing and that if I wanted more I had to do A LOT more. Dreadfull wrath does look interesting, will think about it

I'm rather fond of suggestion and my save DC is higher then that of the Imp. I know the imp is a powerful familiar but for now I'll keep it like this.

EDIT:

Feycraft shortsword (or daggers) insta-finesse
True, but that is not much damage and it doesn't solve the the few hit points problem.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

That's a very interesting weapon, but I think that a light crossbow will be a better weapon for the moments that I will have to fight (instead of Inspiring Awe). I don't really have the Con nor the Str to be in melee.

Get an Elvencraft Longbow, it counts as both a quarterstaff and a longbow. You need to buy masterwork three times, two ends of the double weapon plus the bow, and magically upgrade all three weapon portions separately, so you should be able to put three wand chambers in it. Just make one portion of it a +1 weapon and you can get Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm) to be able to upgrade it yourself and get additional benefits. The staff portion can be a custom Runestaff (MIC p224) to help you get around your limited number of spells known. You can even put charges of spells on it like a magical staff, plus an item familiar is an intelligent item so it gets actions in combat, and intelligent items can activate their own powers. Eventually get +1 Defending on each of the three portions, use Greater Magic Weapon on them to increase the enhancement bonuses, and apply all of those toward your AC since Defending stacks with all other bonuses including other Defending bonuses. Don't forget you can put three wands in its three wand chambers, including Eternal Wands (MIC), plus you can UMD those, and as long as you're holding the item it's as though you're holding all three wands so they're immediately available to use. Keep in mind that an item familiar is an intelligent item, and intelligent items are regarded as constructs, and constructs cannot be disabled or destroyed by dispelling or disjoining and they continue to function in antimagic and dead magic areas.

[Gildedragon]

Possibly useful items:
Masterwork Pipes: +1 to the Suggestion DC
Masterwork Lute: Be treated as 1 level higher for suggestion and fascinate

Eternal wand or minor schema of Chain of Eyes

Pricey but maybe interesting: Camelia of the Black Lady

Siren's Breath Poison: Inhaled, penalty to wis saves and sense motive
use with Mister

Spells:
Spymaster's Coin (C. Sc)
Sorrow (BoVD)
Alibi (EoE)

[holywhippet]

Spells:
Eagles Splendour and Glibness are obvious choices, though you won't get the latter until 7th.
Charm Person and Undersong perhaps ?
Disguise Self and Tongues are also useful.

If you can afford it you could always buy a custom item that casts spells like Glibness either several times a day or on demand. In that case you can just about ignore putting ranks in bluff unless you expect to encounter people with crazy high sense motive.

[Gildedragon]

regardless of glibbness, maxing bluff is great. the instill suggestion option is amazing, and being able to fool a paladin's sensor is nothing short of awesome (and needed if one is going to be evil wizzering.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If you can afford it you could always buy a custom item that casts spells like Glibness either several times a day or on demand. In that case you can just about ignore putting ranks in bluff unless you expect to encounter people with crazy high sense motive.

An Eternal Wand in MIC can do Glibness 2/day for 10,900 gp, and anyone who can cast arcane spell can activate it even if it's not on their class spell list.

[Gildedragon]

An Eternal Wand in MIC can do Glibness 2/day for 10,900 gp, and anyone who can cast arcane spell can activate it even if it's not on their class spell list.

Cheaper yet: a minor schema of glibness 6kgp a pop. Just one use but a good price if the spell is not that often used

[Hiro Quester]

On knowledge: Bardic knowledge and gather information work at opposite ends of the spectrum. Your character will need GI as well as BK.

BK is for famous people, items, and such. It's for knowing things songs are sung about (but also obscure songs that are forgotten by all but a few people).

GI is the skill you need for gathering information about secrets; the kinds of things only a few people in town would know. With good GI skills (sense motive helps too), you can spend an evening buying beer for the right people at the local bars, and find out which local noble is having an affair (and with whom), to whom that lord owes money, and what bet he just made with the local gang boss.

Taking Leadership with the purpose of slowly amassing a network a network of spies and informants could be very useful for your character and also have good synergy with Gather Information. Many DMs ban leadership, because it's so abusable; but for the purpose of cultivating a network of informants, you might get your DM to let Leadership serve to have you lead such a network of "little birds".

[AnonymousPepper]

Somebody earlier mentioned that getting a +50 Bluff is super-great.

Glibness gets you most of the way there, a +30.

The other spell to get, which will finish that off, is Guidance of the Avatar. WotC website, Clr2. You'll need to UMD it, but it's absolutely worth it. Pick up a few minor schemas of it, assuming your setting is either Eberron or - more likely - composite and flexible w/r/t items from other campaign settings. Grants a +20 to a single skill check of your choice that you perform within the next minute. And it stacks with Glibness.

It's also useful for diplomancy, as it can add a +20 to your diplo roll as well... or any skill check, really. It's mega-useful.

That brings me to another spell - Magic Savant. Grants you a +4 insight to UMD, and if you have at least ten ranks, you can take 10 on UMD checks for rounds/level.

Another spell that is quite useful - very very much so, provided you're allowed a little bit of leeway with the rules for good RPing -would be Alter Self. Need to impersonate someone? Alter Self is your absolute best bet.

[A.A.King]

I've updated the original thread with my current idea for skills and spells.

Thanks for the suggestions everyone.

[Gildedragon]

Unless you intend to identify a lot of creatures or need it to qualify, you don't need 9 kn arcana ranks. Replacing some of those for alchemy gives you access a greater variety of effects
You don't need both healing spells, for 2nd level take the coin. Lets you scry into private rooms discretely

[A.A.King]

Unless you intend to identify a lot of creatures or need it to qualify, you don't need 9 kn arcana ranks. Replacing some of those for alchemy gives you access a greater variety of effects
You don't need both healing spells, for 2nd level take the coin. Lets you scry into private rooms discretely

Hmmm, Craft (Alchemy) might indeed be nice if I end up with some down time.

Having more then one healing spell (without also having Healing Hymn) is a bit too much, I grant you that. However I'm not sold on the coin though. The duration is just too short. For now I have replaced it with everyone's favourite "Glitterdust"