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Misat
2007-02-14, 01:31 PM
ONE QUESTION! How much does permenant Enlarge cost? Someone in my party wants to know and I can't figure it out. Also, how does dispell magic work on it? Don't want to hijak anything, but you seem to know your stuff a lot better than I do.

Ramza00
2007-02-14, 01:33 PM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/permanency.htm

oriong
2007-02-14, 01:37 PM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/permanency.htm

The enlarge spell would cost 90 gp (for the 9th level caster)

the permanency spell would cost 450 gp + 2,500 gp. So a bit over 3,000 gp total. The PC will also need to find a 9th level caster (minimum) willing and able to cast the spells.

Dispel magic works like it would on any ongoing spell effect: it will end it. A new enlarge person + permanency would be needed.

Misat
2007-02-14, 01:37 PM
Sorry, I wasn't clear. I meant what is the GOLD cost to have permanancy cast upon the party psychic warrior who has already enlarged himself.

oriong
2007-02-14, 01:39 PM
If the psychic warrior used expansion on himself then permanency will not work at all. it only works on the spells listed and expansion isn't on the list, and not a spell at all.

Incarnate allows some powers to be made permanant but expansion isn't one of them.

Amiria
2007-02-14, 01:41 PM
Yes, it is a bad idea to make it permanent. It can be dispelled quite easily and it is costly, many gp for the buyer and many xp for the caster.

You are better off with a custom magic item that grants Enlarge Person a few times per day.

Krimm_Blackleaf
2007-02-14, 01:44 PM
The barbarian in my campaign bought a cloak of continuous enlarge person. But it was pretty pricey...I think I charged around 30,000gp for it.

oriong
2007-02-14, 01:46 PM
Another problem is that enlarge won't increase the size of stuff you pick up, so you've basically locked yourself into your current equipment, magical stuff will ahve to be custom made or taken from giant creatures.

okpokalypse
2007-02-14, 02:13 PM
Another problem is that enlarge won't increase the size of stuff you pick up, so you've basically locked yourself into your current equipment, magical stuff will ahve to be custom made or taken from giant creatures.

If you're talking about a world where permanency can be commissioned, I don't think that's a big deal. Just get the "of Sizing" enchantment added onto weapons and armor and *poof* - the can be made to match size as a standard action.

okpokalypse
2007-02-14, 02:17 PM
Yes, it is a bad idea to make it permanent. It can be dispelled quite easily and it is costly, many gp for the buyer and many xp for the caster.

You are better off with a custom magic item that grants Enlarge Person a few times per day.

Get a Strength Domain Cleric to cast it. Make sure he's L20, has a Bead of Karma, Orange Ioun Stone and Divine SpellPower. Now it's a L29 Caster Level - and even a L20 CL Greater Dispel only has a 5% chance of getting rid of it.

Greater Dispel is inherently flawed because it caps caster level to 20 before the d20 Roll. If one could use CL enhancing items and get a score over 20, it'd be more reasonable.

Gamebird
2007-02-14, 02:19 PM
Sorry, I wasn't clear. I meant what is the GOLD cost to have permanancy cast upon the party psychic warrior who has already enlarged himself.

Multiple magical/psionic size increases usually do not stack. So if your psychic warrior has already enlarged himself (via expansion or similar ability), then has Enlarge cast on himself, then nothing will happen. He won't get bigger. However, this doesn't keep him from getting Enlarge made permanent - it just means he can't use expansion, Righteous Might or any similar size increasing magic to increase further.

Lord Faranor
2007-02-14, 02:29 PM
I'm not sure a Dispel Magic can cancel a permanent efect. Shouldn't it just supress the efect for a while?

And if a character is enlarged, any worn item suits him, as described on the magic items chapter. I don't remember if armor falls into this, but i'd guess it would. Some enlightment, please?

Quietus
2007-02-14, 02:31 PM
It only changes the magic's duration to permanent. A dispel magic can break that, because the magic is still there. I think. Pretty sure it covered that angle in the PHB.

And yes, any armor/gear you carry changes size when you do. However, if you're permanently Large, and you find nifty things sized for Medium characters, how are you going to put it on? The spell doesn't enlarge things you pick up, only what you're wearing when you have it cast.

Gamebird
2007-02-14, 02:31 PM
Armor and weapons specifically do not size to fit the wearer.

Dispel Magic can explicitly end (not suppress) a Permanency effect.

Edit: Also, shields do not size. Only rings, wands, staves, rods and wondrous items size to the user. Potions and scrolls work regardless of your size, though I forget if they size or not.

oriong
2007-02-14, 02:32 PM
No, dispel magic ends any ongoing spell effect, it doesn't matter what it's duration is. Dispel magic will only suppress the function of actual magic items.

On the magic item front it's a little vague. Only jewelry and clothing is mentioned as magically resizing, and right below that it mentions that weapons and armor do have a specific size.

Meat Shield
2007-02-14, 02:45 PM
Armor and weapons specifically do not size to fit the wearer.

Dispel Magic can explicitly end (not suppress) a Permanency effect.

Edit: Also, shields do not size. Only rings, wands, staves, rods and wondrous items size to the user. Potions and scrolls work regardless of your size, though I forget if they size or not.
Gamebird, can you get me a reference for this? I believe you, but it would help in my campaign if I can point to it specifically.

Gamebird
2007-02-14, 03:10 PM
SRD

Size And Magic Items

When an article of magic clothing or jewelry is discovered, most of the time size shouldn’t be an issue. Many magic garments are made to be easily adjustable, or they adjust themselves magically to the wearer. Size should not keep characters of various kinds from using magic items.
There may be rare exceptions, especially with racial specific items.
Armor and Weapon Sizes

Armor and weapons that are found at random have a 30% chance of being Small (01-30), a 60% chance of being Medium (31-90), and a 10% chance of being any other size (91-100).

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#sizeAndMagicItems

I think the matching passage in the DMG is a little more specific, but I can't be sure since I'm speaking from memory. Shields are considered a type of armor for everything but AC bonus type stacking rules and some specific sorts of enchantments you can put on them.

I'm pretty sure that the section in the DMG for rings specifically mentions they size. Rods, staves and wands really don't matter if they size or not, as they function pretty much the same way regardless. Though it might matter for the rods or staves that can also be used as weapons.

Quietus
2007-02-14, 03:13 PM
Enlarge Person is a unique effect - it explicity states in the spell description that all equipment is enlarged when you get bigger, and that anything leaving your possession returns to normal size.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/enlargePerson.htm

Gamebird
2007-02-14, 03:16 PM
Yes, but the issue is:
Another problem is that enlarge won't increase the size of stuff you pick up, so you've basically locked yourself into your current equipment, magical stuff will ahve to be custom made or taken from giant creatures.

Once you get enlarged, picking up a set of Medium sized, full plate +3 won't make it size to you. So 90% of the weapons, armor and shields you come across won't fit you, nor will it size to you. And that last 10% isn't guaranteed either, as it could be Tiny or Huge instead of Large.

Of course, if you expect to be fighting a lot of Large creatures, then their gear will fit you fine.

And interestingly, if you take off your current set of armor, after having a permanent Enlarge Person cast on you, then by a strict reading of the rules, your armor will instantly revert to its original size and you won't be able to get it back on. Same for your weapons. If you ever drop them or cease wearing them for any reason, they revert to their original size. Ditto for underwear, trousers... all that nonmagical clothing will immediately shrink.

oriong
2007-02-14, 03:17 PM
Yes, that's the problem. Only equipment you're wearing when you become enlarged resizes with you. If you pick things up they do not grow to match you. This also means that if you drop or put down anything that was enlarged with you when you had it cast on you then it will shrink and will not increase in size.

Meat Shield
2007-02-14, 03:23 PM
Great, thanks Gamebird

ReluctantDragon
2007-02-14, 03:38 PM
Obviously the way around this would be to remove the enlarge person item, pick up the shiny loot/weapon/armor and put the enlarge person item back on.

That's obviously metagaming, but still.

oriong
2007-02-14, 03:40 PM
Well the problem is that it isn't an enlarge person item, it's a permanent spell of enlarge person.

And that wouldn't be metagaming at all, it's all something that happens in-game, seems like something anyone would do.

Tweekinator
2007-02-14, 03:45 PM
Obviously the way around this would be to remove the enlarge person item, pick up the shiny loot/weapon/armor and put the enlarge person item back on.

That's obviously metagaming, but still.

That's not necessarily meta-gaming. If you drop your weapon and it shrinks after you have put on this shiny new ring that made you bigger, and then you take it off and you shrink with all your stuff sizing with you, it makes sense to do/know that. Plus, couldn't your level 1 caster(if he knows the spell) tell you how it works?

And to answer the original question, you'd be much better off going with a wondrous item of expansion/enlarge person. It would cost 4,000gp, 8,000 depending on the body slot used.

ReluctantDragon
2007-02-14, 03:45 PM
Well taking advantage of that loophole would be metagaming in my mind, but y'know, no biggie.

oriong
2007-02-14, 03:49 PM
I don't know that it's really a 'loophole' at all, it's just what the effect does.

Tryranus_Magus
2007-02-14, 04:13 PM
Yes, it is a bad idea to make it permanent. It can be dispelled quite easily and it is costly, many gp for the buyer and many xp for the caster.

You are better off with a custom magic item that grants Enlarge Person a few times per day.

It's no more of a bad idea than having any effect made permanent. It's just that DM's like to spoil all the hard work that players put into their PC's. When was the last time you had a Dispel Magic cast on you when you only had Haste or Mage Armor on?

The item that costs 30k to use Enlarge Person X/day is a waste when you can spend 2k 10 times. Honestly... if you have Dispel Magic cast on you 10 times over the course of a campaign, your DM has it in for you and he's probably just as likely to try to Sunder you item just because you're enjoying your Enlarged status.

Mewtarthio
2007-02-14, 04:29 PM
It's no more of a bad idea than having any effect made permanent. It's just that DM's like to spoil all the hard work that players put into their PC's. When was the last time you had a Dispel Magic cast on you when you only had Haste or Mage Armor on?

The item that costs 30k to use Enlarge Person X/day is a waste when you can spend 2k 10 times. Honestly... if you have Dispel Magic cast on you 10 times over the course of a campaign, your DM has it in for you and he's probably just as likely to try to Sunder you item just because you're enjoying your Enlarged status.

If your enemies know that the only reason the Fighter's so big and strong is an ongoing magical effect, why wouldn't they dispel it? I can see why they might not want to sunder a magic sword or disjoin everything you own (if they kill you, that's a whole lot of money they just ruined), but Permanent Enlarge Person can't be acquired from the Fighter. That's like saying it's unfair vindictive DMing if they cast Slow or Reduce Person or Feeblemind or Slay Living.

---

I've always had a question about enlarging: What effect does it have on various other size-related effects? For example, let's take lycanthropy. Our Medium Human Rogue is walking around and gets eaten by the ferocious weretyrannosaur. Obviously, he'll never get lycanthropy because (aside from the whole "him dying" thing) he's too small. Now, let's say that he survives and has a mage cast Enlarge Person on him. The ferocious weretyrannosaur's brother attacks him out of revenge. He's now Large, which is within one size category of Huge. Can he contract lycanthropy now? Or is the duration of Enlarge Person too short? Let's say he decides to get a Permanency cast on top of that Enlarge Person (I have no idea why a Rogue would want to be that big: Maybe he's about to fight some really big things and wants to be sure he can reach their vitals). Can he now contract lycanthropy from the ferocious weretyrannosaur's second cousin twice removed? And, if so, what happens if his mage friend decides to disjoin him? Does the lycanthropy go away? Does he become an ordinarily impossible human weretyrannosaur? A really impossible human pygmy weretyrannosaur? Or is it a nonissue since he could never get lycanthropy in the first place?

Gamebird
2007-02-14, 05:01 PM
I don't think he could get it in the first place, because his magically enhanced size is not an inherent/racial property.