Would you rate this as worth the +2 LA?

[CyberThread]

10ft climb
+2 Natural Armor

5/ Dr Silver
darkvision 60
immunity to all mind-affecting effects

+2 wis -2 int +4 dex

+4 hide, +6 jump + 12 spot

[Kamin_Majere]

Its a weak 2 IMO.

It's a bit strong for a LA+1, but I could still see it being a strong +1 like the Feral Template

[Forrestfire]

Yeah, much too weak for LA +2, in my opinion. It seems fine at LA +1.

[SinsI]

>10ft climb
trash

> +2 Natural Armor
weak

> 5/ Dr Silver
decent

> darkvision 60
average
> immunity to all mind-affecting effects
good

> +2 wis -2 int +4 dex
> +4 hide, +6 jump + 12 spot

-2 int offsets these skill bonuses

Verdict: LA+0, maybe a weak LA+1 if LA buyback is allowed.

[icefractal]

Decent +1 LA, for the right types of characters (Rogues and Archers, I'm thinking). Not worth +2 LA.

Yes, it does have mind-affecting immunity, but by the time that really becomes important, many of the other bonuses are becoming less so (climb speed available through items, DR 5 not so impressive), so it balances out. I think it would continue being worth +1 for the whole span though, which is more than a lot of things with that can say.

[OldTrees1]

LA +2. The Immunity is stronger than LA+1.

[TuggyNE]

Sorting the stuff into categories:
Irrelevant:
Darkvision 60
10' climb speed

Cool:
DR 5/silver
+2 natural armor
+2 Wis/-2 Int/+4 Dex
+4 Hide/+6 Jump/+12 Spot

Really really good:
Immunity to mind-affecting

You could probably tag all those cool things into a single LA +1 without too much overpoweredness, but that last really really good one makes it pretty much strictly +2 in my opinion. And at that it is a whole lot better than a number of other +2 LA races/templates *coughdrowcough*.

[Chronos]

Quoth Icefractal:

Yes, it does have mind-affecting immunity, but by the time that really becomes important,...
The time when that becomes important is when you're facing first-level spellcasters. The three most dangerous spells at first level are all mind-effecting, and all three of them are still relevant at level 3.

And I agree with TuggyNE that the basket of other traits is worth a decent +1, and the immunity to mind-effecting is worth another +1.

[Gemini476]

It's a strong +1 or weak +2. Immunity to [Mind-affecting] is one of the big reasons why the Construct and Undead types are so valuable, and add onto that +4 to a stat.

I'd suggest maybe making i LA+1 with an extra hit dice, or restricting it to a certain level like Necropolitan does.

[nyjastul69]

I agree with the +2 LA assessments.

[Dorian Gray]

If you buffed the natural armor a bit, it would probably be worth +2 LA. As it stands, I probably wouldn't want it.

[lunar2]

can we get a name for this race/template, or is it just a homebrew collection of stats? i feel like i'm looking at an entomanothrope.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Give it a drawback to offset that immunity to mind-affecting, and it's unquestionably a +1 LA. For example, make it take a -1 to saves vs and receive +2 additional damage from fire effects, or pick a different element if it would be more fitting.

[ericgrau]

Low op LA +2, high op LA +1.

It has a lot of perks but what stuck out for me was the DR/silver. Since monsters almost never have that it's close to DR/-. Immunity to mind affecting stuff is nice too, but much less common. If it had alll of the undead and/or construct immunities that would be quite a bit nicer since it would get used much more frequently rather than once in 12 sessions. It does save you from getting totally screwed over when you do use it if you would have rolled low.

[Kuulvheysoon]

>10ft climb
trash

> +2 Natural Armor
weak

> 5/ Dr Silver
decent

> darkvision 60
average
> immunity to all mind-affecting effects
good

> +2 wis -2 int +4 dex
> +4 hide, +6 jump + 12 spot

-2 int offsets these skill bonuses

Verdict: LA+0, maybe a weak LA+1 if LA buyback is allowed.

You must play in some pretty high-powered games if you think that this is a LA0 race.

If possible, I'd peg it as a LA +1.5, but since that isn't possible, I'll agree with those who call it a strong LA+1/weak LA+2.

[Taelas]

Solid LA +2, aye. The stat bonuses and DR are easily worth the +1, and the immunity to mind-affecting is well worth another.

Also, +12 spot? That seems... excessive.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Also, +12 spot? That seems... excessive.

A Dark Creature Whisper Gnome gets +16 to Hide (+12 race, +4 size) and +10 to move Silently for only a +1 LA.

[Taelas]

What is your point? I call that excessive as well.

[sideswipe]

>10ft climb
trash

> +2 Natural Armor
weak

> 5/ Dr Silver
decent

> darkvision 60
average
> immunity to all mind-affecting effects
good

> +2 wis -2 int +4 dex
> +4 hide, +6 jump + 12 spot

-2 int offsets these skill bonuses

Verdict: LA+0, maybe a weak LA+1 if LA buyback is allowed.

i challenge you to find a non dragon mag non third party race with a positive stat adjustment. in official content i cannot think of any race with any amount of a modifier to stats.

even if there is it will not be more than +2 and absolutely no other abilities for the race to get the extra +2.

i would say i could see this as a strong +1 with no immunity. but it gets way too strong for a +1 when also gaining that. so a +2 is fair. and the +12 to a skill is also a very big thing. but honestly anth owl is a +1 and it gets +12 to move silently.

[Svata]

Make the NA +4, and its good.

[lunar2]

i wish cyberthread would respond and tell us what we're dealing with. i can't shake the feeling that we're dealing with an entomanothrope here, which means we have RHD and other special abilities to consider, too.

also, don't forget there is also a +8 climb that wasn't listed for some reason. everything with a climb speed gets a +8 racial bonus to climb. so the skill bonuses more than offset the int penalty, even if they do end up somewhere you may not particularly care about. after all, xykon has something to say about racial skill bonuses.

[CyberThread]

i wish cyberthread would respond and tell us what we're dealing with. i can't shake the feeling that we're dealing with an entomanothrope here, which means we have RHD and other special abilities to consider, too.





Your not dealing with anything, your dealing with something with those stats lol. Having no preconceptions makes it easier to judge something.

[Renen]

>10ft climb
trash

> +2 Natural Armor
weak

> 5/ Dr Silver
decent

> darkvision 60
average
> immunity to all mind-affecting effects
good

> +2 wis -2 int +4 dex
> +4 hide, +6 jump + 12 spot

-2 int offsets these skill bonuses

Verdict: LA+0, maybe a weak LA+1 if LA buyback is allowed.

Theres no way immunity to mind affecting, 4 dex and some DR is LA 0. NO WAY. As others say strong 1. Maybe 2

[lunar2]

Your not dealing with anything, your dealing with something with those stats lol. Having no preconceptions makes it easier to judge something.

no, it doesn't. having all the information makes it easier to judge something, and there is no good reason to keep some of that information back.

[OldTrees1]

no, it doesn't. having all the information makes it easier to judge something, and there is no good reason to keep some of that information back.

Honestly, fluff that does not impact crunch should not impact your judgement of crunch.
You judgement of the power of +2 Nat AC should not depend on knowing if the skin is stony or scaly.

[lunar2]

i'm not worried about the fluff. that doesn't look like complete crunch, even for a template. it looks like someone grabbed a handful of random stats and threw them on the page. what's the creature type? what's the move speed? are there any RHD, and if so, how many? is it a race, or a template? and if it's a template, is it inherited, or acquired? those are all crunch questions.

[Necroticplague]

Climb:a bit situational, but handy
+2NA:meh. A little boost, not enough to make a difference
Dr5/silver:assuming no scaling, this is awesome at lower levels, irrelevant at higher levels.
darkvision:meh. strictly average, and pretty common.
Immunity: this is probably the best part of all of this. negates many spells, including some rather nasty ones.
Stats:A bit odd. WIS and DEX? pretty meh. decent for a rogue/monk-type.
Skill bonuses are pretty good. Again, make for a decent rogue-type.

2cents: Very good for one or two types of character, pretty meh for other types, with one or two useful traits for others. I'd put this as similar to feral:a bit strong for LA+1, but not quite an LA+2 due to being too narrow a use.

[OldTrees1]

i'm not worried about the fluff. that doesn't look like complete crunch, even for a template. it looks like someone grabbed a handful of random stats and threw them on the page. what's the creature type? what's the move speed? are there any RHD, and if so, how many? is it a race, or a template? and if it's a template, is it inherited, or acquired? those are all crunch questions.

Just an educated guess from reading the OP but:
Humanoid
30ft
No
Race

If it were otherwise I would have expected to be told.

[Promises Kept]

Going to agree with most here and call it strong for 1 LA and weak for 2. Disregarding the stat changes (it's roughly on par with Lesser Planetouched in that regard), DR 5/ Silver and the skill bonuses make it at least LA 1. I'm not entirely certain if Immunity to Mind Affecting is worth a full level; that extra HD would be worth more at low levels and the effect is easily replicable at higher levels.

[SinsI]

i challenge you to find a non dragon mag non third party race with a positive stat adjustment. in official content i cannot think of any race with any amount of a modifier to stats.

even if there is it will not be more than +2 and absolutely no other abilities for the race to get the extra +2.

i would say i could see this as a strong +1 with no immunity. but it gets way too strong for a +1 when also gaining that. so a +2 is fair. and the +12 to a skill is also a very big thing. but honestly anth owl is a +1 and it gets +12 to move silently.

Except for that +4 to stat, all those abilities are defensive. In my book it is the potentially offensive abilities that are worth LA - things like invisibility, extra feats, +to Str or to casting stat, etc.
What makes me consider it as an LA+0 race is that it is pretty hard to capitalize on Dex.

If it is a template you can stick it on Illumian and turn that Dex into sufficient advantage, so it should be either +1 LA or come with XP/level loss cost akin to Necropolitan.

[Hurnn]

LA 2 for sure

[Dread_Head]

Except for that +4 to stat, all those abilities are defensive. In my book it is the potentially offensive abilities that are worth LA - things like invisibility, extra feats, +to Str or to casting stat, etc.
What makes me consider it as an LA+0 race is that it is pretty hard to capitalize on Dex.

If it is a template you can stick it on Illumian and turn that Dex into sufficient advantage, so it should be either +1 LA or come with XP/level loss cost akin to Necropolitan.

What is Wis if not the casting stat for Clerics & Druids two of the tier 1 classes. This is especially good for a druid due to the Wis boost and the Immunity to Mind Affecting that is otherwise a little difficult to achieve on a druid chassis (no protection from X or Mind Blank). You also have to consider that this is pretty much strictly better than other LA0 races with +Dex such as Halfling or Elf so for that reason should definitely be at least +1LA.

Edit: I don't know if this is worth +2LA as I almost definitely wouldn't take it if that was it's cost. However I still feel like it'd be a bit strong at +1LA so I don't know. Either bump the abilities up a little and call it +2 or drop them down a little and call it +1.

[sideswipe]

Except for that +4 to stat, all those abilities are defensive. In my book it is the potentially offensive abilities that are worth LA - things like invisibility, extra feats, +to Str or to casting stat, etc.
What makes me consider it as an LA+0 race is that it is pretty hard to capitalize on Dex.

If it is a template you can stick it on Illumian and turn that Dex into sufficient advantage, so it should be either +1 LA or come with XP/level loss cost akin to Necropolitan.

in vanilla non optimised D&D dex is the best stat. it improves the most amount of things. just because something isnt perfect for an uber OP game doesn't mean it is not powerful in its own right.

[Rubik]

Necropolitans get better than this, and they're basically a Level Adjustment +1 with auto-buyoff. I'd say this is a +1. I'd never take it at +2.