Dragon Style, Dragon Ferocity, and Power attack. (Not the question you might think!)

[Mygicmeen]

[Prerequisites: Str 15, Improved Unarmed Strike, Acrobatics 3 ranks.

Benefit: While using this style, you gain a +2 bonus on saving throws against sleep effects, paralysis effects, and stunning effects. You ignore difficult terrain when you charge, run, or withdraw. You can also charge through squares that contain allies. Further, you can add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus on the damage roll for your first unarmed strike on a given round.

Normal: You cannot charge or run through difficult terrain, and you cannot charge through a square that contains an ally. With an unarmed strike, you usually add your Strength bonus on damage rolls.

Prerequisites: Str 15, Improved Unarmed Strike, Dragon Style, Stunning Fist, Acrobatics 5 ranks.

Benefit: While using Dragon Style, you gain a bonus on unarmed strike damage rolls equal to half your Strength bonus. When you score a critical hit or a successful Stunning Fist attempt against an opponent while using this style, that opponent is also shaken for a number of rounds equal to 1d4 + your Strength bonus.
You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon.
When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every 4 points thereafter, the penalty increases by –1 and the bonus to damage increases by +2.

So I have a level 11 Monk with all three of those feats. I am trying to figure out all of my damage.
My question is rather complicated and I will try to break it down. Lets assume an 11th level monk with 20 str. Lets walk step by step through what happens. (All attacks hit because the dice are rigged.)

FoB attack

First attack: 1D10+5(Str)+7.5(Dragon style)+2.5(Dragon Ferocity)+4(Power attack) = 1D10 + 19. (I know this is wishful thinking, but can someone explain why? Do two unnamed bonuses stack?What about the word add? Can someone explain if you round down before the calculation, or after?)

iteritive attacks: 1D10+5(Str)+2.5(DF)+4(PA)=1D10+11

[JusticeZero]

To me, your math looks kosher. I mean, that's how i'd do it. Seriously, the guy is mid level and a melee. There's not a lot they can do to be "broken".

[Yanisa]

It does seem 100% RAW, however there is a mean developer that said something in the line of "you cant apply an ability score twice to the same roll." In other words all the damage bonuses except power attack are "Strength Bonuses" and by rules of stacking don't stack, only the biggest applies. But I cannot find that quote, so it might not go up for this situation.

By RAI, I would stab the dark and say the multipliers are intended to replace the normal strength damage, basically turning your fist in two-handed weapons for dealing damage. So your fist would deal 1d10 + 1.5 times strength + power attack. But this me guessing RAO and this is not what the letter of RAW says.

Edit: On the subject of "Does It Stack?"
All damage multipliers are untyped, untyped stacks unless it comes from the same source.
All damage multiplies come from different sources (different feats), so it stacks.

[JusticeZero]

I can't picture anyone taking a feat that explicitly reduces one's damage. And it's a freaking MONK. Seriously, what's he going to do?

[Mygicmeen]

I can't picture anyone taking a feat that explicitly reduces one's damage. And it's a freaking MONK. Seriously, what's he going to do?

My DM and fellow players have a slightly skewed idea of what is op, and what is not. So I need to have back up.

As Justice says, if str bonuses don't stack drag ferocity would not apply, and just take a feat slot...

So I need some sort of basis to argue with, because otherwise I'm sure it will be ruled that the first attack is just dice+7.5(DS)+pa, which doesn't seem fair when one considers how Dragon Ferocity works.

[JusticeZero]

Untyped bonuses stack, that's why types are so important. As for thinking monks are OP, I have a hard time grasping how that even works. o.O I mean, are your spellcasters that bad?

[Mygicmeen]

Untyped bonuses stack, that's why types are so important. As for thinking monks are OP, I have a hard time grasping how that even works. o.O I mean, are your spellcasters that bad?

I kinda lied and was vague in some areas. I have a lvl 9 half-fiend dwarf monk. (3.5 half-fiend template with some adjustments.) The only reason I am entertaining power attack is we have...nice... stats(str26dex26con24int23wis22cha15 are my stats naked.) So I cant just say its only 8str dmg 12ds dmg and 4 pa dmg without being able to explain how it works...I was hoping someone could define if you get the str bonus and an unnamed bonus equal to 1.5 your str mod and pa...or why it is canceled out...

On a side note when power attacking and flurrying, you use your flurry bab when calculating pa? not your normal bab right?

[Mygicmeen]

Think I figured it out,


you can add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus

So, your first attack would look like

1D10+12DS+4PA+4(UNAMED bonus = .5str)

[Arbane]

Looks to me like you're adding (str bonus) + (1.5 * (str bonus)) + (0.5 * Str Bonus) + (power attack bonus) to your first unarmed attack. Whoo!

(If Dragon Style was meant to do 1.5 * str bonus instead of (str bonus), it should've SAID that, sez me.)

So, with a +8 Str mod, that's... 8 + 12 + 4 + 2 = +26 damage. Nice, But for three Feats, it _ought_ to be nice.
Extra attacks get 8 + 4 + 2 = +14 damage. Nice, but it's only the Fist of the North Star if you hit with all 4 attacks. :smallbiggrin:

(How are you getting +4 for power attack? With a +6 BAB, it would only still be a +2, I think?)

[Mygicmeen]

(How are you getting +4 for power attack? With a +6 BAB, it would only still be a +2, I think?)

I figured since you FoB at lvl -2 for bab, you would thus use the 9 as the bab for figuring pa. I feel like there is a sort of precedence for this with feats in the style tree and combat maneuver trees (this argument applies in that a monk makes cmb and d checks similarly to that as fob, in that his lvl is used as his base modifier) that justify this opinion.

[Arbane]

I figured since you FoB at lvl -2 for bab, you would thus use the 9 as the bab for figuring pa. I feel like there is a sort of precedence for this with feats in the style tree and combat maneuver trees that justify this opinion.

You could argue that, I guess. But wouldn't that still only be a +3? (+1 damage at any BAB, +2 damage at +4 BAB, +3 damage at +8?)

[Mygicmeen]

You could argue that, I guess. But wouldn't that still only be a +3? (+1 damage at any BAB, +2 damage at +4 BAB, +3 damage at +8?)

I think we are both wrong. It would be -1 +2 -2+4 -3+6until twelfth lvl. Also I edited my previous post. But for even more proof, feats such as stunning fist and elemental fist use monk lvl as preqs as well...though that may be more of a stretch. But still!

[Yanisa]

The rule:

Bonuses are numerical values that are added to checks and statistical scores. Most bonuses have a type, and as a general rule, bonuses of the same type are not cumulative (do not “stack”)—only the greater bonus granted applies.

The important aspect of bonus types is that two bonuses of the same type don't generally stack. With the exception of dodge bonuses, most circumstance bonuses, and racial bonuses, only the better bonus of a given type works. Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source.

The question is: Is the damage a a "Untyped bonus" that is equal to your strength modifier? Or is the damage a "Strength Bonus"?

In the first case it is untyped and from a different source so it all stacks for max damage, which is the ruling most people use and accept. This was also the default ruling in 3.5.
The second case is not supported by many, because it's stupid, brings more troubles then its worth, nerfs melee and is also not how the rules used to work. But is irritating enough in line with the wording of the feats.

I would still say its untyped and thus stacks.

[TuggyNE]

First attack: 1D10+5(Str)+7.5(Dragon style)+2.5(Dragon Ferocity)+4(Power attack) = 1D10 + 19. (I know this is wishful thinking, but can someone explain why? Do two unnamed bonuses stack?What about the word add? Can someone explain if you round down before the calculation, or after?)

Dragon Style's Normal section explains why this is incorrect: the usual pattern is to add 1x Str bonus to melee damage, but Dragon Style lets you add 1½x Str bonus to melee damage instead. There is no reason to list that in Normal other than that Dragon Style takes the normal pattern and changes it.

So it would be 1d10 + 7 (5*1½, round down) + 2 (5*½, round down) + 4 = 1d10+13 on your first hit.

[Arbane]

I think we are both wrong. It would be -1 +2 -2+4 -3+6until twelfth lvl. Also I edited my previous post. But for even more proof, feats such as stunning fist and elemental fist use monk lvl as preqs as well...though that may be more of a stretch. But still!

Oh, duh. Right. I was thinking of 3.5's "-1 hit =+1 damage" version.

[Mygicmeen]

Dragon Style's Normal section explains why this is incorrect: the usual pattern is to add 1x Str bonus to melee damage, but Dragon Style lets you add 1½x Str bonus to melee damage instead. There is no reason to list that in Normal other than that Dragon Style takes the normal pattern and changes it.

So it would be 1d10 + 7 (5*1½, round down) + 2 (5*½, round down) + 4 = 1d10+13 on your first hit.

If only my unarmed attacks were a primary natural weapon =(

[TuggyNE]

If only my unarmed attacks were a primary natural weapon =(

Well, you don't take a -5 penalty on its use, do you? And you certainly get 1½ Str to damage. Looks like the Power Attack requirements for extra returns are satisfied, unless there's some kind of neither-fish-nor-fowl classification for "natural attacks that are neither primary nor secondary", or unless PF decided that unarmed strikes are not natural attacks for any purpose.

[Mygicmeen]

I really dont know. I just feel like it will get tossed out without even being thought about. He considers us "really powerful" as it is. so.. he is rather unpredictable.

The relevant material says this for FoB

A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks.

unarmed strike says this though

monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.

Does effects take precedent, specifically because unarmed attack is listed after flurry of blows? though I think that has more to do with alphabetical order than anything...

[Yanisa]

Well it seems to depend more on your DMs reading then what the rules precede to and if he rules harsh, then sorry but tough luck...

Regardless Power Attack is an effect that improves natural weapons. I would agree on that. (The other line of ruling is for if you have other natural except beyond your fist, and not relevant to this.)



I should note all these down, my monk is going to hit Dragon Ferocity and Power Attack at some point in his life. (Like level 15, yay for 0 BaB at level 1)

[BWR]

I believe Dragon Style intended the read something like "you add 1.5 times your Strength modifier to your first unarmed attack that round instead of the normal amount."
I think this because:
- DS does more than increase damage - it grants a nice little bonus to saves against some nasty effects and removes terrain penalties for lots of situations. That's pretty nice on its own.
- bonuses from the same source do not stack unless explicitly stated. This is a bonus from Strength, and you already have a Strength bonus on there
- Dragon Ferocity: methinks it's intended to expand the benefit of DS to all attacks, not just the first.

Is it unclear? yes, a bit (I never saw any interpretations other than the one I gave until this thread).
Would it be broken? not as such. It would be a very poweful feat, better than any other type of non-kung fu combat feat I can think of off hand, but it would not break the game

Power Attack at BAB 8 subtracts 3 from attacks and adds 6 to damage (9 if primary natural attack or twho-handed weapon). At BAB 1 it is -1/+2(+3), and at BAB 4 and every 4 thereafter, increase numbers by the same amount as the first.

Unarmed strikes are not primary natural weapons, since any body part can be used to make an unarmed strike, unlike primary natural weapons. No 1.5x Strength mod or PA damage bonus for you.

[TuggyNE]

I believe Dragon Style intended the read something like "you add 1.5 times your Strength modifier to your first unarmed attack that round instead of the normal amount."
I think this because:
- DS does more than increase damage - it grants a nice little bonus to saves against some nasty effects and removes terrain penalties for lots of situations. That's pretty nice on its own.
- bonuses from the same source do not stack unless explicitly stated. This is a bonus from Strength, and you already have a Strength bonus on there
- Dragon Ferocity: methinks it's intended to expand the benefit of DS to all attacks, not just the first.

Is it unclear? yes, a bit (I never saw any interpretations other than the one I gave until this thread).
Would it be broken? not as such. It would be a very poweful feat, better than any other type of non-kung fu combat feat I can think of off hand, but it would not break the game

Per the reasoning in my previous post, I think that's how it does read. (That is, RAW is not actually different from presumed RAI.)


Unarmed strikes are not primary natural weapons, since any body part can be used to make an unarmed strike, unlike primary natural weapons.

I don't think this is either correct or germane; in 3.5, at least, a number of body parts can be used to make an unarmed strike, yes (not "any", as such: that's a remarkably common exaggeration), but that's merely a distinction from natural weapons in general, not something that disqualifies a weapon from being primary. Indeed, some creatures have a pair of primary natural weapons, usually claws or slams, so even those that gain extra attacks from being able to strike with different areas (which unarmed strike does not do) qualify.


No 1.5x Strength mod or PA damage bonus for you.

1½ Str comes from Dragon Style+Dragon Ferocity; the PA damage bonus naturally follows from that.

[Mygicmeen]

- bonuses from the same source do not stack unless explicitly stated. This is a bonus from Strength, and you already have a Strength bonus on there.

You are saying then that for the first unarmed attack each round, while using dragon style, that the total str dmg would be 1.5 (12 in this example) + 4 (dragon ferocity),
not 8+12(Ds)+4(df)

[upho]

I've built quite a few natural attack monk dippers in PF, and my first and most important recommendation for someone (like me) who is used to 3.5 is this:
Do not assume anything that has to do with unarmed strikes (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Attack) or natural attacks (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules#TOC-Natural-Attacks) in PF works like in 3.5, because it rarely does.

This may very well be stuff you're already well aware of, but just in case:
An US in PF is not a natural attack, but a specific form of melee attack that usually follows rules more similar to regular melee weapon attacks (USs count as light weapons for TWF penalties etc), BUT:


When doing so (flurrying (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk#TOC-Flurry-of-Blows-Ex-)), he may make one additional attack, taking a –2 penalty on all of his attack rolls, as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat. These attacks can be any combination of unarmed strikes and attacks with a monk special weapon (he does not need to use two weapons to utilize this ability). A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands.

A monk's attacks may be with fist, elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may make unarmed strikes with his hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply his full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all his unarmed strikes.
snip
A monk's unarmed strike (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk#TOC-Unarmed-Strike) is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.Emphasis mine.

In short, a monk flurrying IUSs and/or monk weapons is regarded as wielding two weapons, his IUSs being light weapons, even if he chooses to flurry with one single monk weapon - or one single natural attack if he has the Feral Combat Training (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/feral-combat-training-combat) (FCT) feat (note the FAQ/Errata). The distinction between whether the monk uses USs or weapons is therefore only relevant in the case of magic items and special materials (and there are also quite a few items that affect both USs and natural attacks (Amulet of Mighty Fists) and items that only affect either one (Brawling armor)).

This also means that if you have a natural attack, like a tail slap, and FCT with your tail slap, you can flurry with tail slaps only or with any combination of tail slaps, IUSs and monk weapon attacks. Your tail slap would then get the same -2 penalty as your IUSs or monk weapons would, even though it's a secondary natural attack that normally receives a -5 penalty (since a natural attack with FCT flurries "as if it were a monk weapon").



Re: DS and DF

I believe Dragon Style intended the read something like "you add 1.5 times your Strength modifier to your first unarmed attack that round instead of the normal amount."I agree, and also believe this is exactly what the RAW says, albeit in a convoluted manner. The reason being the wording "add 1.5 times your Strength modifier bonus on the damage roll", which actually names the bonus as being "the strength mod bonus you add to damage" and therefore doesn't stack with another str mod bonus to damage. In order for this bonus to stack with the normal str mod bonus, DS would instead have to say: "gain a bonus on your first unarmed strike damage roll equal to 1.5 times your Strength modifier" or similar. Compare also to Fury's Fall (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/fury-s-fall-combat) which doesn't stack with Agile Maneuvers (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/agile-maneuvers-combat) or Weapon Finesse for the very same reason (this was also quite recently confirmed by the devs).


Dragon Ferocity: methinks it's intended to expand the benefit of DS to all attacks, not just the first.I cannot speak for the RAI, but by RAW this is clearly not what DF says IMO. As opposed to DS, DF uses a wording which basically says "in addition to" by specifically not naming the bonus (it just says the untyped bonus is equal to half str mod). In addition, it uses the wording "gain a bonus", a wording not used by the general rules on str mod bonus to melee damage or by any other "instead of" (typed) ability mod bonus (DS, Fury's Fall, Agile Maneuvers, etc) which uses "add your ability modifier". DF actually uses exactly the same wording as my above example, stolen from the gunslinger's gun training class feature and typical for stuff with untyped bonuses equal to mod/level/whatever. FWIW, all example builds with DF I've seen also agree with this interpretation.


Would it be broken? not as such. It would be a very poweful feat, better than any other type of non-kung fu combat feat I can think of off hand, but it would not break the gameIf one were to houserule that both the DS and DF bonuses are untyped, I agree it would probably only be "slightly OP" in a party otherwise containing very a low-op members, at least if we're talking about most monk-primary builds. With a decently optimized monk-dipping natural attack beast totem barb or similar though, I believe such a houserule could easily turn out to be very OP, at least during the first 10 levels or so.


Power Attack at BAB 8 subtracts 3 from attacks and adds 6 to damage (9 if primary natural attack or twho-handed weapon). At BAB 1 it is -1/+2(+3), and at BAB 4 and every 4 thereafter, increase numbers by the same amount as the first.Nitpick, but the bold part is generally wrong in PF. Natural attacks in never add 1.5 str mod or PA x3, except if used with FCT and DS (or in the rare case of certain monsters (a dragon/special eidolon bite, for example), or a creature that actually only has one single natural attack (no potential USs, weapons or other other natural attacks), a case which simply cannot apply to a PC in PF unless s/he's both head- and limbless and therefore cannot make USs, which would appear to make the lack of USs the least of the PC's problems). This is true regardless of whether the natural attack is primary or secondary. Also note that for all non-monk characters with IUS and TWF, the additional TWF attack/s only gain half str mod, since they are treated in the same manner as additional TWF attacks made with a light weapon.


Unarmed strikes are not primary natural weapons, since any body part can be used to make an unarmed strike, unlike primary natural weapons.
I don't think this is either correct or germane; in 3.5, at least, a number of body parts can be used to make an unarmed strike, yes (not "any", as such: that's a remarkably common exaggeration), but that's merely a distinction from natural weapons in general, not something that disqualifies a weapon from being primary. Indeed, some creatures have a pair of primary natural weapons, usually claws or slams, so even those that gain extra attacks from being able to strike with different areas (which unarmed strike does not do) qualify.This is yet another case when the 3.5 and PF rules differ. In PF, a monk's USs can be made with virtually any body part, and USs aren't natural weapons of any kind, period. A monk's USs may however count as a natural attack for certain purposes (which has nothing to do with str mod to damage or primary/secondary), and similarly any natural attack may count as an US for certain purposes when combined with FCT. See the above spoiler and links!


No 1.5x Strength mod or PA damage bonus for you.
1½ Str comes from Dragon Style+Dragon Ferocity; the PA damage bonus naturally follows from that.By RAW, BWR is absolutely correct that an US cannot gain a x3 PA bonus, ever, since it's even specifically stated in PA which attacks receive the x3 bonus. But I'm quite convinced this is simply a missed update, PA being written long before DS at a time when an US couldn't possibly have a 1.5 str mod bonus. So RAI, I agree with Tuggy and say the x3 PA bonus definitely applies to any melee attack with a 1.5 str mod bonus, including an IUS with DS.

[AccidentalInsom]

[QUOTE=Mygicmeen;17483596][[SPOILER=Dragon Style]
First attack: 1D10+5(Str)+7.5(Dragon style)+2.5(Dragon Ferocity)+4(Power attack) = 1D10 + 19. (I know this is wishful thinking, but can someone explain why? Do two unnamed bonuses stack?What about the word add? Can someone explain if you round down before the calculation, or after?)

Okay you guys are doing some weird math and making things all complicated. Also you didnt account for the enhancements to power attack based on your level so your math is actually off. So you're an 11th level monk with a +5 strength. Meaning you also have a BAB of 8 which is important for power attack. You already have the +4 to damage. The reason using dragon style and power attack is so powerful, is because if you are using 1.5 times your strength or more, the power attack damage ALSO is multiplied by 1.5. And let's not confuse ourselves by having dragon style and dragon Ferocity as different numbers. Ferocity is 2 times your strength on an attack let's not make this weird. And due to the wording, you CANNOT add both strength and dragon style bonuses. So it's good for a monk. But better for a brawler if they were to take weapon Specialization. Moving on though.

Your damage for the first hit with power attack
1d10+10 (ferocity)+6= 1d10+16
Which isnt that bad. Except you're missing the beauty of the Dragon Ferocity and power attack. Ferocity adds 2 times your strength on the first attack. And 1.5 times your strength on all other attacks. Meaning your power attack bonus is amplified on all attacks.

So assuming you use Flurry of blows along with your power attack. Your new damage output in one round

1d10+10+6=1d10+16
1d10+8(rounded up from 7.5)+6=1d10+14
1d10+8+6=1d10+14
1d10+8+6=1d10+14
1d10+8+6=1d10+14

Totalling up to a full one round damage output of 5d10+72.

Monks are known for the fact they have many attacks not just the one. That's why Dragon style and ferocity is so strong because its buffing all of their like 15 attacks.

[Peelee]

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