Wands and Metamagic

[Grayson01]

Can a wand be created using a metamagic feated spell as long as the effective spell level does not go above 4th? If so can a wizard/artif use the sudden metamagic feats to create wands of spells with unadjusted metamagic feated spells?

Edit: forgot the main reason for asking, if you can use sudden metamagic to create a Wand could you use Sudden quicken to make swift action wands or would the Standard action to activate the Wand over rule the quicken aspect of the feat?

[holywhippet]

By RAW I don't think there is any way to make a swift action wand. All magical items generally take a standard action to activate, unless activation is part of some other action. The only time a wand can take a different amount of time is if the time for the spell takes longer than a standard action.

[Doc_Maynot]

As per rules compendium, when activating wands and scrolls, you use the casting time of the original spell. And it is possible to apply metamagic to a wand either at creation (Adjustment can't cause it to break the 4th level limit) or with metamagic spell trigger.

[Grayson01]

As per rules compendium, when activating wands and scrolls, you use the casting time of the original spell. And it is possible to apply metamagic to a wand either at creation (Adjustment can't cause it to break the 4th level limit) or with metamagic spell trigger.

Okay so then could you use sudden quicken to create a wand?

Sudden Quicken
( Complete Arcane, p. 83)

[Metamagic]


You can cast a spell with a moment's thought without special preparation.

Prerequisite
Quicken Spell (PH) , Sudden Empower (CAr) , Sudden Extend (CAr) , Sudden Maximize (CAr) , Sudden Silent (CAr) , Sudden Still (CAr) ,

Benefit
Once per day, you can apply the effect of the Quicken Spell feat to any spell you cast without increasing the level of the spell or specially preparing it ahead of time. You can still use Quicken Spell normally.

[Doc_Maynot]

Nope, just Metamagic Spell Trigger (Feat: Complete Mage, Page 45), adding it at creation, or the artificer infusion that does it.

The issue is when activating the wand you aren't actually casting the spell.

[With a box]

how about just tape the wand with a metamagic rod?

[Captain Kablam]

Well, as a DM I'd let it fly, so long as, like you had said, the effective spell level doesn't go beyond first. However, for your "Sudden Quicken" wand, that definitely would probably be something I'd ban from the market, not only because of the baddassery that it would bring about in a game set often already criticized for caster OPness, but also the feats necessary to bring it about into being, of which there are a lot.

Effectively I'd only let it fly if a PC made the wand, since they are taking the huge feat dump to pull it off (precious, precious feats). But that just my opinion.

[Grayson01]

As per rules compendium, when activating wands and scrolls, you use the casting time of the original spell. And it is possible to apply metamagic to a wand either at creation (Adjustment can't cause it to break the 4th level limit) or with metamagic spell trigger.

Okay I am not understand something. So according to the red portion the wand uses the spells casting. So a quicken spell would be a swift action According to the Blue portion you can add the Metamagic feat at the time of creation as long as it does not break the level 4 limt

So a Sudden Quicken Spell has a spell level adj of +0 spell levels so spells of </= 4th level could be made.

What am I missing that would prevent it from being made?

Not trying to say you are wrong, I am just trying to understand it.

[holywhippet]

I'm thinking you can't do it because sudden quicken is meant for casting a spell, not for using in item crafting. The description doesn't say you can imbue it into a magical item. If you could it would surely only work once per day like the original feat.

[Captain Kablam]

In regards to the sudden quicken wand. In theory, it could be done, so long as the wand is held, however the feat dump is extraordinary to pull it off, and no way should any sane DM price it as a regular wand of an equal spell level.

[RolandDeschain]

Dragon Prophesier + Craft Wand + Prophecy's Artifex = Quickened Wands

Unfortunately you probably won't find that very helpful, because it wasn't what you were asking. Just thought I would throw it out there.:smallsmile:

[Fyermind]

Staffs in the Epic Level Handbook use various metamagic effects at their appropriate level, and my recollection of the rules is that it works exactly as Grayson is saying it does.

As a DM, I would price such an item in accordance to the effective spell level I thought was most appropriate (+4 for sudden quicken, +6 for DMM persist, etc.) but that's just me. As a player, I've definitely asked about this when playing artificers.

[ace rooster]

Sudden metamagic requires you to cast the spell, which does not occur during crafting. The spell slot is used up, but you do not cast the spell. As such you craft items of sudden metamagic. You can possibly wish them into existence though.

DMM applies a metamagic feat to a spell, and the spell slot doesn't change. The spell level still increases, you just don't have to use a higher level slot to use it. It could be used to craft items of higher level metamagiced spells than you can actually cast, but will not affect the price.

[Oddstar]

This is just my opinion, but the feat description says that it can be used to quicken a spell only once per day. Given that, if I did allow this, I would only allow the wand to be used once per day.

But I probably wouldn't allow it at all. It seems to me that regular metamagic feats are built into the spell, such that when a wizard memorizes a quickened spell, it takes up a slot four levels higher at the time the spell is memorized. Because it is built into the spell, it can be built into a wand or other device that casts the spell. Sudden metamagic feats are not built into the spell; they are applied to the spell as they are cast. That is, they alter the way the caster casts the spell, not the spell per se. As such, I don't see how they could be built into a wand.

[Tvtyrant]

This is just my opinion, but the feat description says that it can be used to quicken a spell only once per day. Given that, if I did allow this, I would only allow the wand to be used once per day.

But I probably wouldn't allow it at all. It seems to me that regular metamagic feats are built into the spell, such that when a wizard memorizes a quickened spell, it takes up a slot four levels higher at the time the spell is memorized. Because it is built into the spell, it can be built into a wand or other device that casts the spell. Sudden metamagic feats are not built into the spell; they are applied to the spell as they are cast. That is, they alter the way the caster casts the spell, not the spell per se. As such, I don't see how they could be built into a wand.

I see your point by RAW, but the sudden metamagic feats get no love as it is. I would probably rule it this way and you can apply the feat to a wand spontaneously when using the wand to cast a spell. Not RAW in the slightest, but more fair IMO.