Doing a rogue/wizard gish build (Pretty sure at least)3.5

[slaydemons]

So, first off we have a house rule of any skill you unlock in any class remains a class skill. My current build is

Rogue 1/wiz 4/ unseen seer 4 / abjurant champion 5 / spellsword 1/eldrich knight 5

I know I won't be getting many skill points but I got +16 base attack bonus and a caster level of 18, 17 if any spell but divination and 19 if divination.

Is this build of decent value? I don't want to be particularly useless, and spellsword is there just to make sure I get 4th attack and if this build is pretty good by itself what sort of feats should I get to further boost effectiveness?

Edit: forgot to mention this is for 3.5

[A.A.King]

It seems decent enough I guess. Depends a little on the level of the rest of your party

However, it seems a bit unfocused. First of all: You should remove "Spellsword". You don't qualify for it. Spellsword requires that you also Medium and Heavy Armor Proficiency on top of the Light Armor Proficiency Rogue gives you. Just replace it will another level of Eldritch Knight (has the same BAB)

Second of all, might it not be better to either go full Skillgish or just straight Gish? What would you like this build to do?

Also, which ACF do you plan to take?

[slaydemons]

It seems decent enough I guess. Depends a little on the level of the rest of your party

However, it seems a bit unfocused. First of all: You should remove "Spellsword". You don't qualify for it. Spellsword requires that you also Medium and Heavy Armor Proficiency on top of the Light Armor Proficiency Rogue gives you. Just replace it will another level of Eldritch Knight (has the same BAB)

Second of all, might it not be better to either go full Skillgish or just straight Gish? What would you like this build to do?

Also, which ACF do you plan to take?

Mmm I see your point, while I could go out of my way for that extra armor proficiency its not worth it. I started with the base rogue a bit for skills but mostly for sneak attack, as for ACF I assume you mean alternate class feature, I don't plan on taking any to be honest, I don't see a point. More then anything I want this build to do some nice damage, I plan on getting arcane strike as soon as possible. I want it to be able to hold its own in combat after the spells run out, but also be able to cast spells well.

[Dread_Head]

I'd suggest Rogue 1 / Wizard 4 / USS 4 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327) 6. Or trade Rogue 1 for Spellthief 1 and take the feat Master Spellthief. In fact I like the build slightly better with Spellthief but YMMV. Especially if your DM lets you use stolen spells to fuel Arcane Strike.

You'll keep you +16 BAB, and still be able to cast 9th level spells at the end of your career as well as having more skill points and some of Swiftblades goodness as well. It takes a couple more naff feats to get into Swiftblade (Dodge and Mobility) but as you don't have the prereqs for either Spellsword or Eldritch Knight this is kind of moot.

Feats for this build beyond Combat Casting, Dodge & Mobility should be things like Power Attack, Arcane Strike, Practised Spellcaster, Craven or Master Spellthief (if you go that route).

A good ACF is the Abrupt Jaunt ACF from PHBII. Although depending what skills you take keeping your familiar might be nice. Martial Wizard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard) is also nice for picking up an extra useful feat.

Some decent non PHB spells to look at include (Greater) Luminous Armour (BoED), the Heart of X line (CM) and Wraithstrike (SpC). You should also look at picking up Hunters Eye (PHBII) through your bonus divination from USS for extra SA dice.

Edit: Ask your DM about fractional BAB from Unearthed Arcana as it will let you take 3 more USS levels without losing another point of BAB. Not as good an option as Swiftblade (IMO) but will keep the more roguey feel of the build if that's what you're going for.

[A.A.King]

Did you read the Gish Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?321715-The-Gish-Handbook)?

Yes, with ACF I meant "Alternative Class Feature" and there are some quite nice ones for Melee wizards. You can trade away Scribe Scroll for a Fighter Bonus Feat (UA) and you can trade away your familiar (which will be pretty useless with only 4 wizard levels) for "Abrupt Jaunt" (PHII). An immediate action teleport is perfect for melee.

Another thing you might want to consider is trading away your now 6 levels of Eldricht Knight for the Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327) PrC. It has a 2 feat tax but in exchange you gain actual class features. It even has his own handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=333.0)

EDIT: Ninjas -.-
Also: Can't believe I failed to notice he also didn't qualify for Eldricht Knight

[slaydemons]

Thanks, I keep forgetting about weapon and armor proficiencies, obviously. Just to be clear I should using able learner, so I don't waste too many skill points for sense motive, right?

[WarKitty]

I'd suggest Rogue 1 / Wizard 4 / USS 4 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327) 6. Or trade Rogue 1 for Spellthief 1 and take the feat Master Spellthief. In fact I like the build slightly better with Spellthief but YMMV. Especially if your DM lets you use stolen spells to fuel Arcane Strike.

Please don't break my villains. We'll see. (And I reserve the right to use any such tricks to equip said villains).

In general, I only have one optimizer at the table, please don't break my game!

[Doc_Maynot]

Perhaps instead, just do Factotum 5/Chameleon 2/Factotum +1/Chameleon +2/Factotum +1/Chameleon +2/Factotum +1/Chameleon +4/Factotum +2
Simple build that can easily gish. Just stick to Divine focus so you can use Divine Power + any other divine spell while you build up your arcane spellbook. Once you hit Chameleon 7, you can have both any divine spells and all arcane spells in your book active at the same time. Only feats you'll need are Able Learner, and Font of Inspiration.
You'd only need Int and Wis.

[WarKitty]

Perhaps instead, just do Factotum 5/Chameleon 2/Factotum +1/Chameleon +2/Factotum +1/Chameleon +2/Factotum +1/Chameleon +4/Factotum +2
Simple build that can easily gish. Just stick to Divine focus so you can use Divine Power + any other divine spell while you build up your arcane spellbook. Once you hit Chameleon 7, you can have both any divine spells and all arcane spells in your book active at the same time. Only feats you'll need are Able Learner, and Font of Inspiration.
You'd only need Int and Wis.

And Dodge (Rulebook).

[Doc_Maynot]

O.o I'm sorry, did I suggest something bad?

[slaydemons]

O.o I'm sorry, did I suggest something bad?

The other two guys suggested how to make my build more workable, then you suggest how to become a better mystic theurge?

[sideswipe]

what about factotum 1? its much better than rogue 1 in my opinion.

[WarKitty]

O.o I'm sorry, did I suggest something bad?The other two guys suggested how to make my build more workable, then you suggest how to become a better mystic theurge?

Also I think that qualifies as "breaking my game."

[slaydemons]

what about factotum 1? its much better than rogue 1 in my opinion.
its better because it has all the skills, however rogue gets sneak attack which is boosted by unseen seer

[Callin]

I think the Rogue Gish Swiftblade would be not be that much of a Gamebreaker WarKitty. Specially if he does not use any ACFs.

[Baroknik]

If you're only in Rogue for SA, maybe consider SA Fighter?

[slaydemons]

I think the Rogue Gish Swiftblade would be not be that much of a Gamebreaker WarKitty. Specially if he does not use any ACFs.
That breaking comment was specifically at the factotum/chameleon build

Edit:not just sneak attack, sneak attack is a major part yes but also the skills needed to get me into unseen seer, I really like unseen seer.

[WarKitty]

I think the Rogue Gish Swiftblade would be not be that much of a Gamebreaker WarKitty. Specially if he does not use any ACFs.

I'm not terribly worried - looking for something that lands in at a solid tier 3, maybe even 2. An unoptimized gish would probably be annoyingly weak compared to some of what's on the table just played straight.

I just don't trust these boards not to come up with some wizard/rogue/ur-priest combination that gets wish at level 12 and 150d6 sneak attack

[A.A.King]

I'm not terribly worried - looking for something that lands in at a solid tier 3, maybe even 2. An unoptimized gish would probably be annoyingly weak compared to some of what's on the table just played straight.

I just don't trust these boards not to come up with some wizard/rogue/ur-priest combination that gets wish at level 12 and 150d6 sneak attack

Relax, we aren't all Tippy :P I don't think I have ever seen a 150d6 Sneak Attack build.... but now I want one -.-

Optimization is all about what the other people at your table are playing, but I think when it comes to a Skill-Gish you should only really worry about ACFs like "Abrupt Jaunt"


Thanks, I keep forgetting about weapon and armor proficiencies, obviously. Just to be clear I should using able learner, so I don't waste too many skill points for sense motive, right?

Well you shouldn't need Able Learner because of your houserule. The house rule said that any skill you unlock remains a class skill. I assume that means that after unlocking "Sense Motive" with your Rogue level then you can buy Sense Motive with Wizard levels as if it was a class skill for Wizards (1 point for 1 rank instead of the usual 2 points 1 rank).

[Doc_Maynot]

Relax, we aren't all Tippy :P I don't think I have ever seen a 150d6 Sneak Attack build.... but now I want one -.-

Factotum 20, 42 Int, and with access to generic classes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm).
They spend 4 inspiration to gain the Generic Warrior Class Feature:
"Bonus Feats
A warrior gets one bonus feat at 1st level, one at 2nd level, and another one at every second class level (4th, 6th, and so on)."

Which they have set to as many 'Font of Inspiration's as they can. The next time they get a valid SA they can spend 150 inspiration for 150d6 SA with 9 inspiration to spare.

[A.A.King]

Factotum 20, 42 Int, and with access to generic classes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm).
They spend 4 inspiration to gain the Generic Warrior Class Feature:
"Bonus Feats
A warrior gets one bonus feat at 1st level, one at 2nd level, and another one at every second class level (4th, 6th, and so on)."

Which they have set to as many 'Font of Inspiration's as they can. The next time they get a valid SA they can spend 150 inspiration for 150d6 SA with 9 inspiration to spare.

I'm not entirely sure if the math is correct on this one. Surely you can only take the sneak attack feat once. And then when you want more SA damage you have to pick one of the others. Only the favored enemy feat has the "May be selected more than once" clause.

[Cloud]

...Font of Inspiration gives an ever increasing number of inspiration points, (the 1st gives 1, the 2nd gives 2 for a total of 3, the 3rd 3 for a total of 6, the 4th a total for 10, etc. Triangular numbers yay~).

The point was using that generic class to get 11 feats, which are all font of inspiration, which is 66 before you're a human and take font of inspiration for every feat as well. If you manage to take the feat 17 times (needing an int score of 44 though) you'd have 163 inspiration points at level 20. (4 of which is used to copy the generic class feat progression, so, 159, or 9 left after your 150d6 sneak attack.)

Factotums can also spend 1 inspiration point for 1d6 sneak attack, and yes, can spend X points for Xd6 sneak attack. Aside from this amusing build to get a OMG big number don't worry, you have to declare you're using the inspiration points before your attack roll, and get it only to that single attack, it's generally regarded an extremely terrible way to spend your inspiration points (I mean, 150d6 sneak attack on one attack you might miss, or 50 standard actions? XD )


Anyway, on the original build, what's more important, skill monkey gish, or a more fighter gish?

For a more skill monkey one, I have no idea how optimized this is, but my thoughts were, 16 BAB, 9th Level spells, a healthy number of skill points (and some sneak attack). Though this one needs fractional BAB, and as much as I hate UA something from it.
Rogue 1, Factotum 1, Fighter 1 (Sneak Attack Variant), Beguiler 2, Unseer Seer 10, Abjurant Champion 5
There you go, BAB 16, 9th Level Spells, 6d6 Sneak Attack, every skill is a class skill, and 122 base skill points.

Sigh...here's me forgetting that Beguilers don't get 9ths until 18th level, nice work me. >.> Ah, probably best just taking Wizard instead of Beguiler (which is more optimal anyway because well, spells, but I was trying to focus on the skill side of things). So, Rogue 1, Factotum 1, Fighter 1 (Sneak Attack Variant), Wizard 2, Unseer Seer 10, Abjurant Champion 5. Which is still mostly the same but a far better spell list, and only 114 base skill points.

I'm sure someone could take that even further, though gishes generally aren't so much focused on skills as they are...getting in your face. Or the more skill based ones don't care about BAB and get all the skill points and sneak attack.

[slaydemons]

Well you shouldn't need Able Learner because of your houserule. The house rule said that any skill you unlock remains a class skill. I assume that means that after unlocking "Sense Motive" with your Rogue level then you can buy Sense Motive with Wizard levels as if it was a class skill for Wizards (1 point for 1 rank instead of the usual 2 points 1 rank).
That would be the case if I wasn't using the spellthief instead of rogue, Dread head suggested that I get spellthief instead, spellthief doesn't get sense motive and wizard doesn't get sense motive either. though it would be worthless rather quickly.

[A.A.King]

The point was using that generic class to get 11 feats, which are all font of inspiration, which is 66 before you're a human and take font of inspiration for every feat as well. If you manage to take the feat 17 times (needing an int score of 44 though) you'd have 163 inspiration points at level 20. (4 of which is used to copy the generic class feat progression, so, 159, or 9 left after your 150d6 sneak attack.)

I totally read over that bit... I'm not doing well in this thread xD


That would be the case if I wasn't using the spellthief instead of rogue, Dread head suggested that I get spellthief instead, spellthief doesn't get sense motive and wizard doesn't get sense motive either. though it would be worthless rather quickly.

Okay, I didn't realize you were considering going Spellthief. Maybe post how you think your build would look right now (Including Race).

If the only problem is getting Sense Motive as a Class Skill then you shouldn't take Able learner. You only need 4 ranks for unseen seer and spending 8 skill points on only 4 ranks might be sub optimal but so is spending a feat on what would basically be just 4 extra ranks over the course of 5 levels. Here are some feats you can take at level one instead of Able Learner if you do Spellthief:

Apprentice (Philosopher) It grants you "Sense Motive" and "Knowledge (you can pick one)" as a class skill. It also gives you a +2 competence bonus on Concentration Skills and a +2 bonus on Will Save. If you start before level 5 then there is some fluff associated with it that you should check out. Apprentice is from DMGII
Martial Study (Desert Wind) Martial Study allows you to pick one Discipline from Tome of Battle. The key skill for that discipline becomes a class skill for you. You then get to pick one maneuver that you qualify for from that discipline which from then on you can use once per encounter. You can chose either Counter Charge or Mighty throw.
Your Choice Take any other feat you want at first level and just pay the 8 skill points for 4 ranks in Sense Motive. You only need 4 to qualify anyway and so it's only a problem if you want to keep Sense Motive Maxed


If you really want to max Sense motive but don't like the first two options then you can go with the third and take Open Mindedat level 6 (when you get your first Unseen Seer level and Sense Motive becomes a class skill). Use the 5 skill points it grands you and use it to buy 5 ranks in Sense Motive. This means that you now have Sense Motive Maxed as a 6th level character before spending any of the Unseen Seer's skill points.

One thing to keep in mind about Spellthief 1 + Master Spellthief is this: It doesn't increase the number of spell levels you can hold. So although you might be able to steal a 4th level spell, you still can only hold a 1st level spell (and therefor immidiatly lose it). You have to ask your DM how she handles it

[Vaz]

Doesn't work by RAW either way. It cannot take the (Ex) ability of a class that doesn't even exist. Generic Warriors are not used in the same game that has standard character classes. It would be like expecting scrolls of Wu Jen spells lying around despite their being no Wu Jen in the setting.

You can pick up Survival via Martial Study (Setting Sun Maneuvre).

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Consider something like Human Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm#humanParagon) 1/ Sneak Attack Fighter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighter) 1/ this Wizard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard) 2/ Human Paragon 2/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Incantatrix 4/ Eldritch Knight 4 instead. Human Paragon gets you any ten class skills, the Fighter level gets sneak attack and the proficiencies for Spellsword, and Spellsword gets you the spell levels to qualify for Abjurant Champion.

Incantatrix can use Metamagic Effect and Cooperative Metamagic to add Persistent Spell to your buffs with a Spellcraft check, so you can have Shield, Wraithstrike, Elation, Swift Fly, Expeditious Retreat, Greater Invisibility, Draconic Polymorph, Fell Drain/Frighten Fire Shield twice and Death Armor, etc. active all day long. You can use Cooperative Metamagic on your own spells when outside of combat since the action economy system only exists during initiative. Be sure to get at least one targeted Dispel Magic counter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items), a +1 Spellblade (Spiked) Gauntlet that you always wear should be sufficient.

Take Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm) at 3rd and invest as many skill points as possible into it for the greatest return. The bonus that gives you to Spellcraft should help get it high enough to always succeed on the spellcraft check to add persistent spell to your highest level spells by taking ten. Make the item familiar a ring or similar, you can wear the above gauntlet over it so opponents will never have line of sight/effect to it and cannot target it directly or slight of hand it. Item familiars are intelligent items which are regarded as constructs, and constructs cannot be disabled or destroyed by dispelling or disjoining and continue to function in antimagic and dead magic areas. It can start as a +1 Ring of Protection and you can upgrade it yourself to another type of ring that has a +1 Deflection bonus to AC added per MIC p234, which should only cost you the normal price for crafting the type of ring you upgrade it to.

[slaydemons]

spellthief 1 / Wizard 4 / UnSeen Seer 4 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Swiftblade 6
With the race human is my current build idea taking from dread_head.
My Back story for my character is currently one that probably wouldn't allow apprentice, Martial study seems the most promising to be honest. I do plan on taking a familiar, an artic fox, its both useful for sneaky sneak and fits my character theme so I am very happy with that.

Edit: Currently decided on using martial study (setting sun) to make sense motive as a skill I am starting at level one so I only have spell thief and combat casting, the dm also said I could use spell steal to fuel arcane strike a maximum of 9d4 damage coming from it isn't the worst that could happen

[WarKitty]

Consider something like Human Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm#humanParagon) 1/ Sneak Attack Fighter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighter) 1/ this Wizard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard) 2/ Human Paragon 2/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Incantatrix 4/ Eldritch Knight 4 instead. Human Paragon gets you any ten class skills, the Fighter level gets sneak attack and the proficiencies for Spellsword, and Spellsword gets you the spell levels to qualify for Abjurant Champion.

Incantatrix can use Metamagic Effect and Cooperative Metamagic to add Persistent Spell to your buffs with a Spellcraft check, so you can have Shield, Wraithstrike, Elation, Swift Fly, Expeditious Retreat, Greater Invisibility, Draconic Polymorph, Fell Drain/Frighten Fire Shield twice and Death Armor, etc. active all day long. You can use Cooperative Metamagic on your own spells when outside of combat since the action economy system only exists during initiative. Be sure to get at least one targeted Dispel Magic counter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items), a +1 Spellblade (Spiked) Gauntlet that you always wear should be sufficient.

Take Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm) at 3rd and invest as many skill points as possible into it for the greatest return. The bonus that gives you to Spellcraft should help get it high enough to always succeed on the spellcraft check to add persistent spell to your highest level spells by taking ten. Make the item familiar a ring or similar, you can wear the above gauntlet over it so opponents will never have line of sight/effect to it and cannot target it directly or slight of hand it. Item familiars are intelligent items which are regarded as constructs, and constructs cannot be disabled or destroyed by dispelling or disjoining and continue to function in antimagic and dead magic areas. It can start as a +1 Ring of Protection and you can upgrade it yourself to another type of ring that has a +1 Deflection bonus to AC added per MIC p234, which should only cost you the normal price for crafting the type of ring you upgrade it to.

I'm just going to go ahead and say that this also falls into the "requires dodge (rulebook)" category.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'm just going to go ahead and say that this also falls into the "requires dodge (rulebook)" category.

You could easily replace the Incantatrix and Eldritch Knight levels in that with Unseen Seer 8, so it would be Human Paragon 1/ Sneak Attack Fighter 1/ Martial Wizard 2/ Human Paragon 2/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Unseen Seer 8. That still gets 18/20 spellcasting and +16 BAB.

[WarKitty]

You could easily replace the Incantatrix and Eldritch Knight levels in that with Unseen Seer 8, so it would be Human Paragon 1/ Sneak Attack Fighter 1/ Martial Wizard 2/ Human Paragon 2/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Unseen Seer 8. That still gets 18/20 spellcasting and +16 BAB.

The objection was more to using the wizard spells to turn into an overpowered monster, honestly. We are not playing in tippyverse, enemies are not routinely using scry-n-die tactics, and spending all your time as an invisible dragon that ignores armor and whatever else is going to result in custom inevitables murdering the character. As will generally any attempt to make any classes that aren't tier 1 casters irrelevant.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The objection was more to using the wizard spells to turn into an overpowered monster, honestly. We are not playing in tippyverse, enemies are not routinely using scry-n-die tactics, and spending all your time as an invisible dragon that ignores armor and whatever else is going to result in custom inevitables murdering the character. As will generally any attempt to make any classes that aren't tier 1 casters irrelevant.

The latest level build I suggested doesn't necessarily use Wizard spells to turn into an overpowered monster, considering I removed the Incantatrix levels.