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View Full Version : Warlocks not as underpowered as they seem?



Luircin
2007-02-14, 04:40 PM
I'll make this short.

The warlock's Imbue Item ability grants the ability to craft items without needing the spell available, provided that a UMD check is made.

If I combine this with Scribe Scroll, does that mean that I could concievably have access to every spell in existance, limited only by my gold, XP, and time?

If this is true, would this make the warlock less underpowered than it is?

Everyman
2007-02-14, 04:43 PM
Yes, you could have access to every spell. In response to your second question...

Short answer: No

Long answer: No, because you have to expend XP and gold in order to keep up with other casters, who have access to their powers for "free".

However, a Warlock with the Craft Contingent Spell feat is made of fun and win (by virtue of extreme cheesiness). The expenditure for that feat is a much better use for Imbue Item (and makes the DM cry).:smallsmile:

broderickdruce
2007-02-14, 05:23 PM
Isn't that esentially a less efficient Artificer(Eberron)? They may have a few extra cool abilities but no craft reserve or bonus feats...

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-14, 05:35 PM
Yes... at a significant XP cost, a large gold cost, and a minimum caster level and DC for the spells on the scrolls.

Krimm_Blackleaf
2007-02-14, 06:04 PM
You can do what my warlock and my friend's wizard does. He provides the feats necesarry, I provide the 'spells' and we split up the GP and XP evenly. According to the rules (I don't remember where it states it, but I know it's the DMG) we can do that. But the DM says you have to be a caster of some sort, artificer or warlock to provide any of the componants of item creation.

AaronH
2007-02-14, 06:10 PM
You know, the one thing that always gets me when it comes to discussing Warlocks, is that nobody ever discusses the Invocation, "The Dead Walk." That is a really flippen cool power, and I don't care what anybody says, it makes the warlock worthwhile.

Also, if you are playing eberron there is a feat that lowers crafting costs for XP and gold, and a feat that reduces crafting time. Now mind you, as a warlock you won't have a lot of extra feats, but it helps a little bit.

Personally though, I am never concerned about balance when it come to classes, as long as a class is playable (which, IMHO a warlock is) I am fine with it.

ZekeArgo
2007-02-14, 07:30 PM
You know, the one thing that always gets me when it comes to discussing Warlocks, is that nobody ever discusses the Invocation, "The Dead Walk." That is a really flippen cool power, and I don't care what anybody says, it makes the warlock worthwhile.

Also, if you are playing eberron there is a feat that lowers crafting costs for XP and gold, and a feat that reduces crafting time. Now mind you, as a warlock you won't have a lot of extra feats, but it helps a little bit.

Personally though, I am never concerned about balance when it come to classes, as long as a class is playable (which, IMHO a warlock is) I am fine with it.

If your playing eberron, want to play a crafting character, and are not an artificer...

Unless its an Artificer/Warlock Gestalt, that actually isn't so bad

The_Snark
2007-02-14, 07:57 PM
You know, the one thing that always gets me when it comes to discussing Warlocks, is that nobody ever discusses the Invocation, "The Dead Walk." That is a really flippen cool power, and I don't care what anybody says, it makes the warlock worthwhile.

Also, if you are playing eberron there is a feat that lowers crafting costs for XP and gold, and a feat that reduces crafting time. Now mind you, as a warlock you won't have a lot of extra feats, but it helps a little bit.

Personally though, I am never concerned about balance when it come to classes, as long as a class is playable (which, IMHO a warlock is) I am fine with it.

Yeah, I've always felt warlocks were pretty playable as-is. Are they as powerful as wizards, clerics, and sorcerers? No. Are they on a par with the average fighter and rogue? Probably; a well-made power-attacking fighter or a two-weapon fighting rogue will outpace the warlock damage-wise, but they don't have flight/blindsight/Chilling Tentacles and side effects built into their primary weapon. Balanced against noncaster classes, they do fine, and plenty of people play those.

I've always had a soft spot for abilities useable at will, too.

jjpickar
2007-02-14, 08:28 PM
I like Warlocks because I don't have to think about conserving magical energy. I know they suck mechanically but not worrying about when to use a spell makes them worthwhile to me.

Noneoyabizzness
2007-02-15, 11:03 AM
warlocks are nice enough, they are just not utility. they are a middle ground charcter.

they have a little more toughness, they have armor use, they have unlimited blasting and with splatbooks even moderate melee capacity,

in gestalt, they are brilliant add ons to most non-asf caster classes. dread necrowarlock, blaster beguiler, rogue-warlock, and fighter-warlock offer lots of fun builds in gesting.

lot of focus is the imbue item power. this always staggers Me because the fun part of the class is it has moderate capacity the other 12 levels. blasting is not apreciated by many, but when starting at 1st level, a constant energy blasting RTA is pretty nice. midlevel, the wizard/sorc gets to up the ante with fireballs and lightning bolts as well as some utility spells, a warlock is less potent, but not as useless as a monk. and the curb stabilizes along that point. about as good as most classes, but outpaced by the primary caster classes and the rogue (the one true everyman heroic class)

Kapture
2007-02-17, 10:48 AM
My in game experience is that the warlock is an overpowered one trick pony. I don't mind them, but I'm finding I have to structure my encounters heavily to get by the almost automatic umpty-damage they dish out every round. The dude in my group just stands back and fires, nearly never misses due to the touch attack, and uses his invocations to get around any bit of careless judgement I make during a combat or designing an encounter, using at will see invisiblity, dimension door, and black tentacles. If he gets hit, he goes invisible and sucks down a potion.

It might change as we head over 12th level, but right now, he's the focus of the group just because I have to think about him in every encounter.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-17, 10:56 AM
My in game experience is that the warlock is an overpowered one trick pony. I don't mind them, but I'm finding I have to structure my encounters heavily to get by the almost automatic umpty-damage they dish out every round. The dude in my group just stands back and fires, nearly never misses due to the touch attack, and uses his invocations to get around any bit of careless judgement I make during a combat or designing an encounter, using at will see invisiblity, dimension door, and black tentacles. If he gets hit, he goes invisible and sucks down a potion.

It might change as we head over 12th level, but right now, he's the focus of the group just because I have to think about him in every encounter.

Sure, Warlocks can be pretty hard to kill--but "umpty-damage"? It's afew d6es, once per round. If your fighter, rogue, or cleric isn't dishing out significantly more than that, they're doing something wrong (or just not built for combat).

Luircin
2007-02-17, 11:07 AM
Glad to hear all the responses. After some thought, I agree that artificers are better... if playing in Ebberon. However, for those of us who don't, I would hope that the warlock would be a tolerable substitute... and an archer with infinite ammo to boot.

As for scrolls and items, the XP cost is more easily mitigated than the GP cost, especially considering that you gain more XP at a lower level than at a higher one for overcoming equilivant CR. Sure, you'll lag about a level behind the rest of the party, but as long as you keep a scroll case in your handy haversack with every possible spell you will need, you should be able to pull your weight.

I think it's possible to scribe scrolls at a higher CL than the lowest; they just cost more.

Make a partnership with a wizard for the GP, maybe; you scribe otherwise unreachable scrolls for him, and he pays you for your work.

Anyways, the reason this came up was that my PCs are underground
and have nowhere to spend their hard-earned loot. So I introduced a warlock/fleshwarper as an NPC who is paying for their assistance by selling his grafts at cost (The PCs are woefully under the WBL guidelines, and so there's the reason I'm selling them cheap), and I was wondering whether it would be possible to expand his "merchant" role to be more than a walking stitch dispenser.

Luircin
2007-02-17, 11:10 AM
Sure, Warlocks can be pretty hard to kill--but "umpty-damage"? It's afew d6es, once per round. If your fighter, rogue, or cleric isn't dishing out significantly more than that, they're doing something wrong (or just not built for combat).

Unless they're doing something like using eldrich glaive and quicken SLA, but even then, that only gives an extra two blasts, or three at 11+ BAB.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-17, 11:11 AM
And Eldritch Glaive puts the squishies in melee range, where they do not want to be.

Khantalas
2007-02-17, 11:12 AM
Though artificers are easily adapted to any campaign setting and neet not be limited to Eberron.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-17, 11:12 AM
Artificers shoudln't be adapted to anything. God, so broken.

Khantalas
2007-02-17, 11:14 AM
I didn't say they were balanced. I said they were adaptable.

Piccamo
2007-02-17, 01:02 PM
And Eldritch Glaive puts the squishies in melee range, where they do not want to be.

Fortunately there are ways to modify the squishiness. For instance, taking 1 level of Battle Sorceror (SRD Variant), take Practiced Spellcaster (CArc83), going into Abjurant Champion (CMag50) and choosing to advance Warlock instead of sorceror means you can get a decent AC, while maintaining your damage a bit. The feat Mortalbane and the PRC Hellfire Warlock also help out with warlock damage.

Arceliar
2007-02-18, 02:25 AM
Imbue Item is a nice ability... All it *really* does though is let them spend a little exp to make magic items themselves for half the GP cost. Not too terribly broken when you look at it from that point of view.

I have to say, warlock is probably my all time favorite class because it's one of the few classes which is pretty average. Useful enough, if played well, to contribute valuably to the party while never turning into batman.

Really, the only broken thing about them I can see is the fact that they can craft scrolls which the wizard can use to augment his already impressive collection of balance shattering abilities. And even then, a high level wizard is most likely going to have the connections needed to gain access to most any spell they want.

Dareon
2007-02-18, 07:25 AM
It should be noted that, as written, it seems to me that a Warlock could use Imbue Item to make any item requiring an arcane spell with no chance of failure simply by taking 10 on the UMD check. This is for the most part strictly better than an Artificer could do, since the Art needs to emulate the caster level, not the spell level, plus their base DC is higher. The lack of craft reserve and free creation feats does hurt the Warlock's usefulness in that regard, but for one glorious level, the Warlock can outshine the Artificer. One brief, shining moment... *sniff* so... beautiful... ;_;

But usually your focus should change as you advance in Warlock. Early on, you're about consistent damage per round. This generally holds true for later levels, as you will still be hitting rather consistently, although you begin to be outshone damage-wise by 6th level at the latest. So that's when you dump the damage strategy and start pumping social skills for all they're worth. Think about replacing your Least essence or shape invocation (If you have one) with Beguiling Influence and choosing Charm as your Lesser. This will get you into Mindbender, which is actually a decent class for you, even with half caster progression. Although I still wouldn't recommend going beyond three levels in it, if that. If your DM's using Lords of Madness, see if you can wheedle the Mindsight feat out of him, because that's just delicious cake.

Item creation is really a viable idea, though, especially with no artificer or craftmage around, but you should be careful how many of your feats you devote to it. Personally I'd leave it at wands and wondrous items, although you may want to take Arms & Armor if you happen to be low in the shiny sword department. Scrolls and potions might arguably be more useful than wands, but it's really a personal decision. I tend to stay away from one-use items, which is really an unreasoning thing, because wands are just as expendable. Maybe coordinate with your other casters, if you have any.

Rigeld2
2007-02-18, 10:32 AM
The best warlock build is Warlock 12/Chameleon 2/Warlock 6. Use the floating feat for crafting if you have downtime, or Quicken SLA if you dont.

AtomicKitKat
2007-02-19, 11:54 AM
As someone pointed out above, Fleshwarper Warlock is a viable choice. If you're not using the stupid Eberron Graft limit rules, that is. Fleshwarper will mess up your BAB, but with various grafts, you can improve your survivability, and/or attack capabilities(you're still stuck with one blast per round unless you have super-reach+glaive, and only if glaive applies to each melee attack in the round).

MrNexx
2007-02-19, 12:15 PM
Hmmm... Warlock with Chameleon 2. Floating Feat as "Bonus Invocation" to allow them to choose a useful invocation at need?

illithid13
2007-02-19, 12:48 PM
I saw mention of a hellfire warlock, where is this found?

Ramza00
2007-02-19, 12:58 PM
I saw mention of a hellfire warlock, where is this found?
here
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061207a&page=3 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061207a)

Diggorian
2007-02-19, 01:00 PM
Right here in an exerpt (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061207a&page=3) from the Fiendish Codex II.

EDIT: Ramza-Ninja strikes!

The campaign with my warlock PC just ended abruptly (player bailage), he wasnt FTW but had more than his share of spotlight moments. No, we didnt have a dedicated caster in the group, maybe why, but Voracious Dispelling at will was nice and I was looking forward to Eldritch Chain (more accurate than high BAB multiple attacks but constrained to a smaller area -- like an eldritch shotgun!)

I invite y'all to critique and add to the posts in my Invocation thread in my sig. My warlock is homeless now, but I'll play another.

illithid13
2007-02-19, 01:10 PM
been out of the loop for too long... thanks!

Thomas
2007-02-19, 05:49 PM
People keep mentioning Quicken Spell-Like Ability, but when I tried to calculate whether a Warlock can ever qualify for QSLA (Eldritch Blast), I came up with "No way." The effective spell level of the blast is always too high in relation to the effective caster level of the Warlock to take QSLA, isn't it?

Khantalas
2007-02-19, 05:51 PM
People keep mentioning Quicken Spell-Like Ability, but when I tried to calculate whether a Warlock can ever qualify for QSLA (Eldritch Blast), I came up with "No way." The effective spell level of the blast is always too high in relation to the effective caster level of the Warlock to take QSLA, isn't it?

Of course, don't you have the errata? Eldritch Blast remains 1st level now. Forever unless modified by invocations.

Thomas
2007-02-19, 05:53 PM
Ah, that'd explain it (although it's a bit stupid they mention QSLA in the original text, too, when - by the rules presented there - the Warlock couldn't ever qualify for it). I must admit I've never bothered reading any errata for Warlocks...

And hello, globe of invulnerability ...

Luircin
2007-02-19, 07:20 PM
Ah, that'd explain it (although it's a bit stupid they mention QSLA in the original text, too, when - by the rules presented there - the Warlock couldn't ever qualify for it). I must admit I've never bothered reading any errata for Warlocks...

And hello, globe of invulnerability ...

Well, barring any eldrich essence/blast shape invocations that alter the blast to be above level 4, that is.

Luircin
2007-02-19, 07:31 PM
Ah, that'd explain it (although it's a bit stupid they mention QSLA in the original text, too, when - by the rules presented there - the Warlock couldn't ever qualify for it). I must admit I've never bothered reading any errata for Warlocks...

And hello, globe of invulnerability ...

Well, barring any eldrich essence/blast shape invocations that alter the blast to be above level 4, that is.

Beren One-Hand
2007-02-19, 09:59 PM
Another way I've seen Warlocks used effectively is for them to be sneaky characters. This works well with Gestalt builds, but can be done normally.

For example I have a Lvl 12 gestalt Warlock/various other classes including Ghostfaced Killer. He's able to be trailing someone invisibly and when the time is right fly, with perfect manueverability, the 40' to hit him with a sudden strike turned Frightful Attack in addition to his Hideous Blow and favorite essence at the moment then while everyone is reeling from his Frightful Attack he uses a QSLA to Flee the Scene (with no drawbacks since his turn is already over, and everybody thinks he's still there)

clockwork warrior
2007-02-22, 06:19 AM
hey, what book is the Eldritch Glaive in?

Dareon
2007-02-22, 07:32 AM
Dragon Magic.

I hadn't thought of Chameleon for a crafter Warlock, but that's mainly because by the time I looked into PrCs, I'd dismissed the crafter route for my own Warlock. Now he's looking into Enlightened Spirit/Legendary Leader, but that's neither here nor there.