What afterlife did Miko end up in?

[hamishspence]

In order to avoid derailing the Thog thread, I've created a new one.

Whatever afterlife Miko is in (based on Soon's comment) almost certainly allows her visits from Windstriker.

This would suggest Celestia, or possibly planes "bordering" it or planes with portals to it (Bytopia, Arcadia, The Outlands).

I personally would predict The Outlands (TN) - since Roy's deva suggested "chucking his file in the TN bin" for abandoning Elan, and arguably killing Shojo and attacking Hinjo are even more major than that.

Any thoughts - other predictions?

[Keltest]

I think she would fit in quite well in Arcadia. Either that or it would drive her mad quite fast. Certainly she fit the profile even before her breakdown. She was definitely more "Lawful" than "good" for most of her life, even if she skirted the edges of both.

[Angelalex242]

Well, let's see...

She was Lawful Good by definition most of her life. Had to be, to have her Paladin Powers at all.

During that fateful less then 24 hours she was not a Paladin...

She lost her mind, and then...
------------------------------
Killed Shojo
Attacked Hinjo
------------------------------
Rejected Sabine's offer to go Blackguard.
Escaped
Destroyed Soon's gate (a little earlier then Soon would've liked)
And is assured to be somewhere Windstriker can visit.
And never even once admitted she was wrong. but thought destroying the Gate redeemed her anyway.

If the Deva writes the first two things off to 'Went Completely Crazy'....

Then what's left is enough to get her to Arcadia, I'd think.

[Keltest]

Well, let's see...

She was Lawful Good by definition most of her life. Had to be, to have her Paladin Powers at all.

During that fateful less then 24 hours she was not a Paladin...

She lost her mind, and then...
------------------------------
Killed Shojo
Attacked Hinjo
------------------------------
Rejected Sabine's offer to go Blackguard.
Escaped
Destroyed Soon's gate (a little earlier then Soon would've liked)
And is assured to be somewhere Windstriker can visit.
And never even once admitted she was wrong. but thought destroying the Gate redeemed her anyway.

If the Deva writes the first two things off to 'Went Completely Crazy'....

Then what's left is enough to get her to Arcadia, I'd think.

Something to note is a lot of the less positive ones are the result of her not having access to complete information, rather than a deliberate attempt at a less-than-noble deed.

[Thrax]

My guess was always Mechanus. Lawful neutral, mindless obedience - fits her pretty well.

[Keltest]

My guess was always Mechanus. Lawful neutral, mindless obedience - fits her pretty well.

Miko has always been very opinionated, and does not hesitate to make it known when she is displeased with her orders.

[Angelalex242]

Mechanus doesn't border Celestia, so Windstriker couldn't get there.

[Typewriter]

Miko has always been one of my favorite characters and I've wondered this a good amount. I can't help but remember what they said about Roy, "You're trying to be lawful good" - I think the same could be largely said about Miko. Not saying I think she necessarily got sent to the same place, but I've always wondered how her meeting with the Deva went.

Actually, in the Oots kickstarter I pledged at the crayon drawing level and requested a meeting between Miko and the Bureaucratic Deva. I plan on getting that thing framed when I get it :)

[Keltest]

Mechanus doesn't border Celestia, so Windstriker couldn't get there.

conceivably, Windstriker can get to any of the planes, given enough time. It would simply have to take the long way around, through territories that may or may not be safe.

[Eldan]

I'd just throw her into Acheron. Mostly lawful, slightly evil, and she gets to pointlessly smite orcs and goblins for all eternity.

[Angelalex242]

Eh. Acheron places too much emphasis on the only 2 misdeeds of Miko's life, committed in what would seem to be a bout of insanity. However, she is absolutely responsible for her own misinformation, or she wouldn't have fallen. Even if she was insane at that point, she IS culpable for her actions.

Arcadia is more just, because it takes all of her years of faithful service as a Paladin (Jerkass Paladin, Paladin nonetheless...) into account.

[SaintRidley]

Arcadia's practically the planar manifestation of Miko's personality. I'd even hazard a guess that when Rich started defining Miko's character Arcadia was somewhere in the back of his mind as a conscious or unconscious inspiration (in addition to the whole "what a paladin absolutely should not be" thing).

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I think I'd go with Arcadia, possibly the Outlands.

[Koo Rehtorb]

There's no reason to assume this world uses that cosmology at all. I assume there's just nine destinations for souls and she went to the LG one.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

There's no reason to assume this world uses that cosmology at all. I assume there's just nine destinations for souls and she went to the LG one.

Word of Giant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?337752-Regarding-the-Moral-State-of-Young-Souls&p=17213673#post17213673) says it does. Or, at least is based off it and has 17 planes.

[Iranon]

She *tried* hard to be Lawful Good, which apparently counts for something... and as a paladin, we know that she was.
Much of the time, it seemed that she'd be a natural Lawful Neutral if she didn't push herself.

Her last day featured some major non-lawful non-good acts, but nothing coherent enough to warrant a major alignment change.
Arcadia seems most fitting.

[Angelalex242]

Especially upon being reminded that Arcadia has Holy Hit Squads. She'd join one, and...well, emphasize on the hitting.

[Vladier]

Eh. Acheron places too much emphasis on the only 2 misdeeds of Miko's life, committed in what would seem to be a bout of insanity. However, she is absolutely responsible for her own misinformation, or she wouldn't have fallen. Even if she was insane at that point, she IS culpable for her actions.

Arcadia is more just, because it takes all of her years of faithful service as a Paladin (Jerkass Paladin, Paladin nonetheless...) into account.

You do realize that paladins can Fall even under effects of Dominate Person, right? It doesn't matter if she was responsible or not, she would've fallen nonetheless, simply because she has higher-ups to whom she answers and they decided to strip her of her powers to make her less dangerous and to give her a clear sign that what she's doing isn't right (which she grossly misunderstood anyway, the Twelve Gods really need to improve their PR department).

I, too, think she went to Arcadia. She should've still been LG at death, really, she only committed one truly Evil (killing defenseless old man) act and the rest were un-Lawful (resisting arrest and vigilantism), but they weren't really un-Lawful because she (thought she) served the authority far higher than any other - that of the Twelve Gods (who clearly didn't strip her of her powers because she's fallen, but to test her). There isn't any difference about thinking you're serving someone instead of actually serving that someone and actually betraying them instead from the point of Alignment, even if there is one from the point of view of that someone.

[Jigawatts]

Cross posted from the other thread.

From the Planescape Campaign Setting Box Set:

"Standing on the slope of Arcadia’s tallest peak, it’s easy to see why this plane is known as the Land of Perfect Good. Everything here radiates peaceful order. Forests grow in neat rows, more like orchards than wild woods. On the plains, grasses grow to only a certain height. Wildflowers grow in self-defined beds of color, one never intruding on the other. Fields are geometrically perfect and towns are laid out in neat squares. Even day and night are ordered and perfect. All light and darkness comes from an orb set in the top of Arcadia’s tallest peak. Half this sphere radiates starry darkness and the other half emits gleaming sunshine. The orb revolves in a regular 24-hour day. Light changes to dark abruptly - there is no dusk or dawn - and each change signals the beginning or end of another perfect day.

Arcadia is a land of fields, orchards, and woods. Throughout, there are the perfect forms of beneficial and peaceful animals from the Prime Material. Even the animals here reflect the goal of Arcadia - organization for the common good. Nectar-laden bees, industrious ants, silver-wooled sheep, fat deer, gleaming foxes, and other creatures that watch and protect their own are common here.

This plane is one of the most hostile to evil sods. Squadrons of petitioner militia regularly patrol the land, seeking out anyone evil. All Arcadian petitioners can cast know alignment at will, and travelers are always questioned as to their alignment. Lawful-good creatures are invited to join such hunts, chaotic goods are tolerated as long as they don’t disturb the public order, neutrals of all types are stiffly requested to finish their business and leave, while evil types are instantly attacked. For the petitioners of Arcadia, it’s no failure to fall when fighting evil."

Bolded for emphasis.

Arcadia sounds pretty much perfect for Miko.

[Angelalex242]

Yeah, the 12 Gods really do have a lousy PR department if they can't get through to one crazy paladin (ex paladin) chick that what she's doing isn't 'serving them.' Then again, they probably would've had to come down in person and put Miko in time out themselves to get through to her.

...If they had done so, Soon would've personally destroyed Xykon and Redcloak, and it'd be a whole different ballgame.

[Itrogash]

Yeah, Arcardia seems really fitting her personality. I wonder what Fraternity of Order would have to say about this new, fanatical orant that had just appeared on their home plane :smallwink:

[toapat]

Yeah, the 12 Gods really do have a lousy PR department if they can't get through to one crazy paladin (ex paladin) chick that what she's doing isn't 'serving them.' Then again, they probably would've had to come down in person and put Miko in time out themselves to get through to her.

...If they had done so, Soon would've personally destroyed Xykon and Redcloak, and it'd be a whole different ballgame.

Considering their PR department is handled by a Deific Tiger. their PR is probably far worse then if Dragon or Pig handled it. i cant see the other 9 members being as good at PR. Maybe im not allocating sufficient credit to the Rooster though.

Miko probably is in Celestia, but probably is so grey that they are handling her judgement through the scales of truth.

Remember, OotSiverse is only 1 Plane/Alignment, not 17 planes like the normal wheel

[Angelalex242]

They'll probably have Lord Soon testify where he thinks she should go. It's HIS order, after all.

Anyways, in the reader's polls, Arcadia's winning by a landslide, with Miko finding a new happy home on the holy hit squads.

[Keltest]

Considering their PR department is handled by a Deific Tiger. their PR is probably far worse then if Dragon or Pig handled it. i cant see the other 9 members being as good at PR. Maybe im not allocating sufficient credit to the Rooster though.

Miko probably is in Celestia, but probably is so grey that they are handling her judgement through the scales of truth.

Remember, OotSiverse is only 1 Plane/Alignment, not 17 planes like the normal wheel

Check out Jaxzan's post, #15. It has a link to the Giant saying that he uses the stock D&D afterlives.

[hamishspence]

I think my main objection to Arcadia was it doesn't really give Miko an opportunity to learn how to be less judgemental, and to learn a looser interpretation of LG-ness.

That's why I liked the idea of Outlands, but Celestia's Gate Town - gives her more opportunity to meet people who aren't like her.

[Keltest]

I think my main objection to Arcadia was it doesn't really give Miko an opportunity to learn how to be less judgemental, and to learn a looser interpretation of LG-ness.

That's why I liked the idea of Outlands, but Celestia's Gate Town - gives her more opportunity to meet people who aren't like her.

The afterlives aren't supposed to foster additional character growth. Your destination is based on who you ARE, not who the gods and their minions think you should be.

[Angelalex242]

Ah, but the Afterlife isn't there to teach you anything. The Afterlife is emblematic of the person you are. The afterlife is 'too late' to change your ways. If Giant wanted her to change, she'd have survived the destruction of Azure City and been given an atonement quest. But her fate was to die before she could atone, so there's that.

Since the Afterlife is supposed to represent who you were, forever, then Arcadia's Holy Hit Squads seem a perfect representation of who she was.

...Swordsaged.

[Sith_Happens]

+1'ing Arcadia. She probably received an immediate promotion to commanding officer of a large einheriar (a.k.a. literal Lawful Good police) unit or division, especially given that OotS-verse petitioners keep all the statistics they had in life (equipment included).

[hamishspence]

The afterlives aren't supposed to foster additional character growth. Your destination is based on who you ARE, not who the gods and their minions think you should be.
That said - even within an afterlife - some "growth" is expected:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0493.html

TN but with "leanings" in any of the other directions - might have its own version- with the gate towns existing to provide "exits" for those that have grown away from TN.

[Clistenes]

Well, I think she wasn't evil, she didn't want to hurt the innocent for fun or profit. Her intentions were good, she was just too selfish, self-centered and vain to actually do good unless it made her look good.
She was somewhere in between neutral and good, closer to neutral than to good.

Despite what people says, she certainly wasn't lawful when she died. Being intolerant and fanatic isn't the same as being lawful, a lawful being follow the rules and she bent and twisted and broke the rules so she could do what she wanted to do and come as the hero of the story. I think she was lawful for most of her life, but at the end she was kind of neutral.

She would fit well in Arcadia, as somebody said, but I'm not sure she deserves to be there. She refused to follow the proper protocol, killed her liege, disobeyed his heir and her new liege, and never repented.

She could end in the Gate-town to Arcadia, Fortitude, trying to become lawful enough to merit entrance into Arcadia.

[Angelalex242]

Against that is the fulfillment of her oath. Which Lord Soon called 'you have done...adequately.'

Lord Soon gave her a C on oath fulfillment, but a C is still a passing grade.

[Keltest]

That said - even within an afterlife - some "growth" is expected:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0493.html

TN but with "leanings" in any of the other directions - might have its own version- with the gate towns existing to provide "exits" for those that have grown away from TN.

That's not so much character growth as growing out of your glorified sausage.

[hamishspence]

Against that is the fulfillment of her oath. Which Lord Soon called 'you have done...adequately.'

Lord Soon gave her a C on oath fulfillment, but a C is still a passing grade.Of course, the Oath Of The Sapphire Guard, is a completely separate thing from being LG. Shojo swore the same oath despite being CG - and only changed his mind about it in the last years of his life, feeling it "foolish to risk universal destruction for a promise to people I've never met."

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0290.html

[Keltest]

Of course, the Oath Of The Sapphire Guard, is a completely separate thing from being LG. Shojo swore the same oath despite being CG - and only changed his mind about it in the last years of his life, feeling it "foolish to risk universal destruction for a promise to people I've never met."

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0290.html

Admittedly, up until that point there was nothing to be gained by breaking it and nothing risked by keeping it.

[hamishspence]

In War & XPs, we find in the Tourist Guide at the back of the book - that the regular violations of neighbour borders by paladins on the Lord's staff, was straining diplomatic relations considerably.

So, there could have been some risks involved in keeping the oath for so long.

[Angelalex242]

Well, considering all Paladins of the Sapphire Guard swore that oath, and it apparently allows Paladins to continue functioning as such despite having taken it, the oath itself was a Lawful Good oath.

She fulfilled her lawful good oath, which Soon called doing her duty. The redemption fail happened because she couldn't admit she was wrong. Lord Soon seems kind of regretful about that too. She gave her life TRYING to find redemption, and fulfilling the oath she made. So keeping that oath seems to be about on par for Miko's unusual definition of Lawful Good. Indeed, she expects Soon to approve wholeheartedly of her.

If only Miko had made it to Celestia. She really needed to spend the next hundred years in the tavern of infinite one night stands. Treasure Type O, ya know. ;)

[Keltest]

In War & XPs, we find in the Tourist Guide at the back of the book - that the regular violations of neighbour borders by paladins on the Lord's staff, was straining diplomatic relations considerably.

So, there could have been some risks involved in keeping the oath for so long.

That's a different action entirely; the Sapphire Guard was going around the world and killing anyone who had knowledge of the Gates (presumably besides the scribbles.) They could uphold their oath to protect the gate without doing that.

[hamishspence]

That's a different action entirely; the Sapphire Guard was going around the world and killing anyone who had knowledge of the Gates (presumably besides the scribbles.)

Actually, what Shojo described them doing was "wiping out all who would threaten the Azure City gate"

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html

[Angelalex242]

...And none of them ever fell from grace for that, so the 12 Gods must've approved.

[Keltest]

Actually, what Shojo described them doing was "wiping out all who would threaten the Azure City gate"

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html

The next block of text clarified that it amounted to the same thing, since they were wiping out all record of it anyway.


...And none of them ever fell from grace for that, so the 12 Gods must've approved.

Word of Giant is that some may have gotten overzealous and fallen for it, but they aren't a relevant part of the story. Redcloak wouldn't have cared at all, since not all of them fell, and none of them directly appear in the story outside of that flashback and Redcloak's backstory.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

...And none of them ever fell from grace for that, so the 12 Gods must've approved.

We don't know this. We do know that Paladins fell for killing innocent goblins, so it's not a stretch to assume they could have fallen in other ways.

[Angelalex242]

...In that case, you'd think after the first guy came home needing an Atonement for ganking one goblin too many, the rest would stop doing it.

[Keltest]

...In that case, you'd think after the first guy came home needing an Atonement for ganking one goblin too many, the rest would stop doing it.

It isn't always as clear cut what caused a fall as it was with Miko. It could be something as simple as enjoying the slaughter too much.

[Angelalex242]

It should be clear cut. A Paladin should never stand there shouting at the sky 'what the hell did I do wrong?' He should know, deep in his soul, why he screwed up and how. If falling is as dramatic as it was for Miko every time (the gods literally zap you!), then they should really send a message of 'you did this wrong, and this is why you fell.'

[Keltest]

It should be clear cut. A Paladin should never stand there shouting at the sky 'what the hell did I do wrong?' He should know, deep in his soul, why he screwed up and how. If falling is as dramatic as it was for Miko every time (the gods literally zap you!), then they should really send a message of 'you did this wrong, and this is why you fell.'

which is great, for that paladin, but not for all the paladins around him. Plus, it isn't always that dramatic. According to the Giant, its (paraphrasing a tad) 'like the CEO of your company coming into your cubicle to personally fire you, that's how badly she messed up."

[Angelalex242]

I suppose, but isn't every Paladin falling the CEO zapping you powerless? It's not like the 12 Gods hand over lesser evils to other powers who then strip you of your power.

Indeed, if every fall (even mind controlled ones) were handled like that, I'd imagine the paladin automatically throws off whatever had enchanted him as a result of the zap.

[MythicFox]

Miko has always been one of my favorite characters and I've wondered this a good amount. I can't help but remember what they said about Roy, "You're trying to be lawful good" - I think the same could be largely said about Miko. Not saying I think she necessarily got sent to the same place, but I've always wondered how her meeting with the Deva went.

I dunno, I'd argue that Miko spent less time 'trying to be' Lawful Good and more time 'arguing that what she was doing already' was Lawful Good. It's made pretty clear once she loses control and the facade drops that her weakness is presumption that she's always right, like a player-character Paladin arguing they only fell because their GM doesn't understand how Paladins work.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

...In that case, you'd think after the first guy came home needing an Atonement for ganking one goblin too many, the rest would stop doing it.
Evidently not. Clearly, they continued on their crusade, so they didn't stop. Like Keltest said, the reasons why they fell aren't always clear. What is "one Goblin too many", and why did only some Paladins fall? Also, it becomes a conflict between their oath and their Code.


I suppose, but isn't every Paladin falling the CEO zapping you powerless? It's not like the 12 Gods hand over lesser evils to other powers who then strip you of your power.

Indeed, if every fall (even mind controlled ones) were handled like that, I'd imagine the paladin automatically throws off whatever had enchanted him as a result of the zap.
The point is that not every fall is as dramatic as Miko's was. The fallen Paladin might not have noticed until their Lay on Hands stopped working.

[Angelalex242]

Well, Sapphire Guard have color coded stuff. They know they're in deep doodoo if their clothes aren't blue anymore. Once they're beige, they've got a problem.

A normal, non Miko Paladin probably responds to that with, *CENSORED*, I'm beige. Quick, where's the cleric? I need atonement stat!

[smuchmuch]

We don't know this. We do know that Paladins fell for killing innocent goblins, so it's not a stretch to assume they could have fallen in other ways.

We do ? Where ?

[Keltest]

Well, Sapphire Guard have color coded stuff. They know they're in deep doodoo if their clothes aren't blue anymore. Once they're beige, they've got a problem.

A normal, non Miko Paladin probably responds to that with, *CENSORED*, I'm beige. Quick, where's the cleric? I need atonement stat!

I think a normal, non-Miko paladin would go BUAHAHAHA! DIE GOBLINS, DIE! if they fell for enjoying it too much. The thing about atonement, is that it doesn't stop a paladin from falling again, and its not like clerics able to cast atonement are just sitting around the office waiting for paladins to fall.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

We do ? Where ?

From here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?145182-SOD-debate-between-me-and-my-friend-(spoilers-I-guess)&p=8081896#post8081896).

[Grytorm]

I've thought about it a bit but definitely Arcadia would be perfect. Not only because it fits her personality but it would provide a better enviroment for her to resolve her issues. Mount Celestia doesn't seem like she would fit into the hedonistic therapy they use in the early levels to work toward enlightenment. Serving as a foot soldier in the Arcadian army could do her good in teaching her some humility and ability to socialize with people.

[Angelalex242]

Actually, if the Sapphire Guard, being Lawful, is at all organized...

Then yes, actually, there should be a 9th level cleric chilling out at the command tent with atonement memorized after the first guy falls.

They might even set it up that the first time you fall is a 'freebie' and the cleric just atones you, but if you screw up twice, he does Divination+Quest and sends you off on one instead to earn your atonement. (Everybody makes mistakes, but screwing up twice in a row isn't kosher.)

[Keltest]

Actually, if the Sapphire Guard, being Lawful, is at all organized...

Then yes, actually, there should be a 9th level cleric chilling out at the command tent with atonement memorized after the first guy falls.

They might even set it up that the first time you fall is a 'freebie' and the cleric just atones you, but if you screw up twice, he does Divination+Quest and sends you off on one instead to earn your atonement. (Everybody makes mistakes, but screwing up twice in a row isn't kosher.)

I would think that a 9th level cleric would have something better to do that be the clerical equivalent of an ambulance chaser.

[Angelalex242]

He does. He's the official field hospital for all the Paladins slaughtering goblins. After all, he has to take care of wounded or even dead (he casts raise dead too ya know!) paladins all the time. Atonement is how fixes those who get spiritually wounded.

It's a worthy enough cause, keeping the Sapphire Guard healthy, spiritually and physically.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Actually, if the Sapphire Guard, being Lawful, is at all organized...

Then yes, actually, there should be a 9th level cleric chilling out at the command tent with atonement memorized after the first guy falls.

They might even set it up that the first time you fall is a 'freebie' and the cleric just atones you, but if you screw up twice, he does Divination+Quest and sends you off on one instead to earn your atonement. (Everybody makes mistakes, but screwing up twice in a row isn't kosher.)

Unless, of course, the Paladins don't believe that they did is wrong. Then atonement would be much more difficult.

[Angelalex242]

They aren't ALL Mikos!

Most Paladins get it when their deities say 'you suck.' They do not run around thinking they're right and the gods are wrong. They generally want to fix it and make things right.

Of course, I'm basing this on the idea that Miko is by far the worst of the lot, and most of the guard behaves in a way similar to O Chul and Hinjo. I can't imagine either of them failing to admit they made a mistake if they make one.

[Keltest]

They aren't ALL Mikos!

Most Paladins get it when their deities say 'you suck.' They do not run around thinking they're right and the gods are wrong. They generally want to fix it and make things right.

Of course, I'm basing this on the idea that Miko is by far the worst of the lot, and most of the guard behaves in a way similar to O Chul and Hinjo. I can't imagine either of them failing to admit they made a mistake if they make one.

Keep in mind, a fallen paladin is one who DOESNT live up to the ideals of the class. Some may repent, but there are Blackguards for a reason.

[Angelalex242]

Ehhhhh. That's reading too much into Giant's comments.

If even Miko rather soundly rejected the idea of going Blackguard with a vicious snap of Sabine's neck, actually turning to the Dark Side (and serving the Goblins he went there to slaughter so he can put Smite Good to good use?) is a bit much to believe.

So I find it difficult to buy any of the Paladins ganking goblins actually went over to Blackguard. After all, they'd need an evil outsider handy to do so anyway.

[lunar2]

Well, I think she wasn't evil, she didn't want to hurt the innocent for fun or profit. Her intentions were good, she was just too selfish, self-centered and vain to actually do good unless it made her look good.
She was somewhere in between neutral and good, closer to neutral than to good.

Despite what people says, she certainly wasn't lawful when she died. Being intolerant and fanatic isn't the same as being lawful, a lawful being follow the rules and she bent and twisted and broke the rules so she could do what she wanted to do and come as the hero of the story. I think she was lawful for most of her life, but at the end she was kind of neutral.

She would fit well in Arcadia, as somebody said, but I'm not sure she deserves to be there. She refused to follow the proper protocol, killed her liege, disobeyed his heir and her new liege, and never repented.

She could end in the Gate-town to Arcadia, Fortitude, trying to become lawful enough to merit entrance into Arcadia.

“Good” implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the
dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices
to help others.

well, she was certainly trying to do that. especially the last part.

“Law” implies honor, trustworthiness, obedience to authority, and
reliability. On the downside, lawfulness can include close-
mindedness, reactionary adherence to tradition, judgmentalness,
and a lack of adaptability. Those who consciously promote lawful-
ness say that only lawful behavior creates a society in which people
can depend on each other and make the right decisions in full
confidence that others will act as they should.

honor, trustworthiness, reliability. check. closemindedness, reactionary adherence to tradition,judgementalness, and lack of adaptability. check. miko was a perfect example of the worst aspects of lawfulness. she's practically an inevitable.

[SaintRidley]

Well, Sapphire Guard have color coded stuff. They know they're in deep doodoo if their clothes aren't blue anymore. Once they're beige, they've got a problem.


They lived in black and white. No way to tell if they're blue or beige. Budget concerns and all that.

[hamishspence]

The afterlives aren't supposed to foster additional character growth. Your destination is based on who you ARE, not who the gods and their minions think you should be.

The main reason I think of the TN afterlife, at least, as allowing inhabitants to move on to the other Outer Planes, is that that's how it's described in Manual of the Planes - the Portal Towns are temporary - and if enough people are ready to move on - the whole town shifts to the Outer Plane in question, along with all it's inhabitants, (eventually I would guess, a new town springs up in its place, and the whole process starts again).

MotP page 149:


On occasion, these portal towns may suddenly disappear, moving directly onto the plane they are connected to. This my be due to the alignment of the town natives; once a critical mass is reached, the town and its inhabitants are welcomed into the related Outer Plane. This phenomenon is a natural quality of the Outlands. It shrugs off pieces to the various Outer Planes.

Some within the various portal towns are extremely hostile to those that might hold them back from reaching the Outer Plane. Others seek to keep the town (and its merchants) securely moored in the Outlands by making sure there is some darkness in every light, and some light in every dark.

[Angelalex242]

None of which is a good reason for Miko to not be in Arcadia on the Holy Hit Squad of her dreams.

We've currently got One Bad Day against her whole life.

And even on her One Bad Day, she didn't make EVERY decision wrong. Rejecting Sabine and Destroying the Gate come to mind. Destroying the Gate is still a point in her favor, even it was faster then Soon would've liked. Still, she fulfilled the letter of her oath, at the minimum. Unlike, say, Eugene Greenhilt.

[Storm_Of_Snow]

I've always thought she wound up in Celestia, but she's sat in the reception area on the other side of the mountain to where Eugene is, unable to get to the mountain itself until she atones - which she probably never will, and she'll stay sat outside, watching people she thinks are less worthy than herself pass through, forever :smallfrown:.

And as she's outside the mountain, but still in Celestia, Windstriker can visit her in the same way Roy kept visiting Eugene.

I assume the Southern gods worshippers have an oriental style gate (a pailou?) rather than the golden gates Roy went through.

If she's not Celestia, then another vote for Arcadia - IMO, she was extremely lawful, but only just good enough to stay a paladin.

[Keltest]

Ehhhhh. That's reading too much into Giant's comments.

If even Miko rather soundly rejected the idea of going Blackguard with a vicious snap of Sabine's neck, actually turning to the Dark Side (and serving the Goblins he went there to slaughter so he can put Smite Good to good use?) is a bit much to believe.

So I find it difficult to buy any of the Paladins ganking goblins actually went over to Blackguard. After all, they'd need an evil outsider handy to do so anyway.

Im not necessarily referring specifically to any of those paladins, but since the class exists at all, it shows that there are paladins who don't repent.

[Angelalex242]

Not all Blackguards are Fallen Paladins. You can get there legitimately with a level or 2 of rogue and levels of fighter, and then being evil all the way up.

Many Blackguards, I'd bet, are priests of Loki or Hel who wanted a better BAB.

Thog, actually, could've been a blackguard if he had enough ranks in hide.

[Keltest]

Not all Blackguards are Fallen Paladins. You can get there legitimately with a level or 2 of rogue and levels of fighter, and then being evil all the way up.

Many Blackguards, I'd bet, are priests of Loki or Hel who wanted a better BAB.

Thog, actually, could've been a blackguard if he had enough ranks in hide.

youre still missing my point. Not every fallen paladin is going to want to repent.

[Angelalex242]

A 98% repentance rate fails to occur 2% of the time.

Even Miko WANTED to repent (or at least thought she already had, sadly asking Lord Soon if that means she gets to be a Paladin again...), she just didn't know how.

[Eldan]

Yeah, Arcardia seems really fitting her personality. I wonder what Fraternity of Order would have to say about this new, fanatical orant that had just appeared on their home plane :smallwink:

The Fraternity isn't for her. They are all about testing the laws and finding loopholes and ways around them. She's Harmonium all the way through.

[Itrogash]

The Fraternity isn't for her. They are all about testing the laws and finding loopholes and ways around them. She's Harmonium all the way through.

H-uh. I need to brush up my Planescape lore. Of course I meant Harmonium, I could have sworn that Fraternity of Order is their a full name. Oh well, an embarrasing mix-up from my side.

[Angelalex242]

So the poll seems to be 'Arcadia, proud member of the Harmonium.'

[LuisDantas]

I personally would predict The Outlands (TN) - since Roy's deva suggested "chucking his file in the TN bin" for abandoning Elan, and arguably killing Shojo and attacking Hinjo are even more major than that.

Any thoughts - other predictions?

I'm a firm believer that Miko was TN when she died, so I agree. At the time of her death she was utterly incapable of telling good from evil.

[Angelalex242]

Well, she still THOUGHT she was Lawful Good, and even thought she'd redeemed herself. Soon had to set her straight, but she believed she was Lawful Good through and through. To the point that if the GM told her to write something else down on her character sheet, she'd likely flip him off and keep Lawful Good right where it was.

Anyways, the Harmonium is where she deserves to be based on what she believes herself to be, which is why Arcadia (Lawful Good-Neutral) is the destination that won the polls. She'd have a grand old time on the holy hit squads of Arcadia.

[LuisDantas]

Well, she still THOUGHT she was Lawful Good, and even thought she'd redeemed herself. Soon had to set her straight, but she believed she was Lawful Good through and through.

Yep. That is one of her most horrific traits. That moral blindness and utter lack of self-awareness.

One wonders what ever made her a Paladin. I have been looking forward for the Secret Origin of Miko for a long time now. It must be a superb history.



To the point that if the GM told her to write something else down on her character sheet, she'd likely flip him off and keep Lawful Good right where it was.

Indeed. Which ironically shows how little understanding of the whole concept she has.



Anyways, the Harmonium is where she deserves to be based on what she believes herself to be, which is why Arcadia (Lawful Good-Neutral) is the destination that won the polls. She'd have a grand old time on the holy hit squads of Arcadia.

By that measure, no one would ever be left out of Celestia.

[Angelalex242]

Well, when you think about it...she must not have been as bad as she was the whole time.

She began life as a monk, but it said Shojo 'found her as a child.' The minimum age, as a monk, Shojo could've found her at was 17. At that point, she was an angry loner that would've lashed out at the world in a most likely Lawful Evil way (monks must still be lawful.) She died at age 29, as a character whose BAB can be no more then 15 because she had 3 attacks per round. Meaning she could've had as many as 14 levels of (Fallen) Paladin at the time of her death (we can only prove she had 2 levels of monk.)

So somehow, she managed to stay sane enough to become a 16th level character with possibly 14 levels of Paladin before that fateful day in Shojo's throne room, and she'd somehow never fallen from grace before.

We can only conclude, then, that Miko for the last 12 years of her life must've been less crazy, or she wouldn't have lasted 14 Paladin levels. That's 12 years in a row of being as unpleasant as she pleases, but somehow never angering the gods enough to strip her of power. She was only fallen for less then 24 hours before her death, after all.

(She had a minimum of 10 levels of Paladin, so she COULD have had up to 7 levels of monk and still had only 3 attacks per round. However, she didn't stay in the monastery that long.)

[Keltest]

Well, when you think about it...she must not have been as bad as she was the whole time.

She began life as a monk, but it said Shojo 'found her as a child.' The minimum age, as a monk, Shojo could've found her at was 17. At that point, she was an angry loner that would've lashed out at the world in a most likely Lawful Evil way (monks must still be lawful.) She died at age 29, as a character whose BAB can be no more then 15 because she had 3 attacks per round. Meaning she could've had as many as 14 levels of (Fallen) Paladin at the time of her death (we can only prove she had 2 levels of monk.)

So somehow, she managed to stay sane enough to become a 16th level character with possibly 14 levels of Paladin before that fateful day in Shojo's throne room, and she'd somehow never fallen from grace before.

We can only conclude, then, that Miko for the last 12 years of her life must've been less crazy, or she wouldn't have lasted 14 Paladin levels. That's 12 years in a row of being as unpleasant as she pleases, but somehow never angering the gods enough to strip her of power. She was only fallen for less then 24 hours before her death, after all.

(She had a minimum of 10 levels of Paladin, so she COULD have had up to 7 levels of monk and still had only 3 attacks per round. However, she didn't stay in the monastery that long.)

IIRC, Word if Giant identifies a very clear moment where she snaps: when she hears lord Shojo admit to what amounts to treachery. It was just as personal to her as it was for Hinjo since he was basically her father figure. Combined with what she (thought she) knew about the order and Xykon, it made the perceived betrayal all the more serious.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

IIRC, Word if Giant identifies a very clear moment where she snaps: when she hears lord Shojo admit to what amounts to treachery. It was just as personal to her as it was for Hinjo since he was basically her father figure. Combined with what she (thought she) knew about the order and Xykon, it made the perceived betrayal all the more serious.

I think this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?222955-Disappointing-Fathers-and-Saintly-Mothers-in-OOTS/page2&p=12240910#post12240910) is the quote you're thinking of. Essentially, when she hears of Shojo's betrayal, she snaps because the person who held her together this whole time wasn't the person she thought they were.

[Keltest]

I think this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?222955-Disappointing-Fathers-and-Saintly-Mothers-in-OOTS/page2&p=12240910#post12240910) is the quote you're thinking of. Essentially, when she hears of Shojo's betrayal, she snaps because the person who held her together this whole time wasn't the person she thought they were.

Yes, thank you. That's exactly what I was thinking of.

[Angelalex242]

Batman: This city just showed you that it's full of people ready to believe in good.

The Joker: Until their spirit breaks completely. Until they get a good look at the real Harvey Dent, and all the heroic things he's done. You didn't think I'd risk losing the battle for Gotham's soul in a fistfight with you? No. You need an ace in the hole. Mine's Harvey.

Batman: What did you do?

The Joker: I took Gotham's white knight and I brought him down to our level. It wasn't hard. You see, madness, as you know, is like gravity. All it takes is a little push!

[the Joker laughs hysterically as Batman races off and the cops come to take the Joker into custody]

Seriously, Miko was right there with Harvey Dent. She was Azure City's white knight until, tragically, Lord Shojo gave her a little push...

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I don't know if I would call Miko a "white knight". Keep in mind that I haven't seen any of the Batman movies, so there could be some context I'm missing here.

[LuisDantas]

The problem with Miko's LG alignment is that it is informed instead of shown.

She is bloodthirsty and remorseless from the first we ever met her.

I wish I was around at the time when she was revealed as a Paladin; it must have been quite the whiskey-tango-foxtrot moment.

Miko's actual actions consistently show a heightened ego directed towards a sense of self-importance, but no particular love for either law or good except to the extent that they furthered her self-image. That is not any more true after she heard Shojo's admission than it was before it.

In short, she was never Lawful, nor Good. Not at all. She lacks even the basic functional understanding of either, because she never matured emotionally enough to understand the concepts.

In that sense she is quite the tragic figure: always thrown around by forces she has no hope of understanding, let alone mastering, all the while growing increasingly reliant on her inflated self-image.

That is why she snapped when Hinjo stood firm and lucid while both were subjected to much the same disappointment with Shojo's speech. Hinjo at his core is a mature, solid individual. Miko is a particularly immature narcisist instead.

Miko is a warning about the dangers of attempting to know better and manipulating people, a sobering call for Roy if he comes to think about that. Shojo is the real villain here IMO; he was aware enough of Miko's character flaws and saw no need to take them into consideration for his plans. He never much cared for the poor psycho, from what we can see. Then again, Shojo is simply not very good at caring for people. He just directs them to further his ends. That his goals were ultimately worthy on their own terms is a lucky happening.

Belkar, too, will eventually end up like Miko for comparable reasons until and unless he grows a character. Which I must admit he has been showing signs of as of late, much to my surprise.

[Angelalex242]

The problem with that line of logic is, she must've understood what Lawful and Good meant at one point in her life, or she couldn't have taken the Paladin class in the first place. It's strict like that. They don't let people like Miko as we see in the comics in in the first place, the vetting system for becoming a level 1 Paladin sees to that. Moreover, since her original class was monk, she must've understood self discipline enough at one point to take on the training necessary to be one. Again, if she wasn't lawful, she couldn't take the 1st level of monk. That's how the system works.

So, in the 12 years she worked for Azure City, she may have been a jackass, but she must've been Lawful Good in some ways for the 12 Gods to take her on at all. Yeah, it's metagaming, but either Miko was at one point actually Lawful Good, or the 12 gods are a bunch of morons willing to take on Lawful Good in name only Paladins. Your call.

Based on deities and demigods, the minimum intelligence and wisdom scores for the gods tend to be in the 20s, and sometimes they get as high as 40 or 50.

The Harvey Dent->Two Face analogy is what I was going for. Harvey Dent, on his own, was Lawful Good. Then Rachel got killed, he got half his face burned off, and he went insane and Lawful Evil, deciding whether people should live or die based on a coin toss. (Lawful Evil because he always went by what the coin said, whether he agreed with it or not.)

Perhaps Miko was once like Hinjo and O Chul (Except she obviously never put a skill rank into diplomacy or sense motive, and was therefore kind of a jackass) upholding right and dealing with evil in an orderly, if unfriendly, way. And then, as time went on, her grip on sanity slowly slipped, believing herself to be more and more important, and others less and less so. And then Shojo proved to not be who she thought he was, and she became 'Two Face' of sorts.

Note:This is not a defense of Miko, but rather, a defense of the 12 gods, who couldn't possibly be that moronic as to let someone in who's that off her rocker.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

The Harvey Dent->Two Face analogy is what I was going for. Harvey Dent, on his own, was Lawful Good. Then Rachel got killed, he got half his face burned off, and he went insane and Lawful Evil, deciding whether people should live or die based on a coin toss. (Lawful Evil because he always went by what the coin said, whether he agreed with it or not.)

Perhaps Miko was once like Hinjo and O Chul (Except she obviously never put a skill rank into diplomacy or sense motive, and was therefore kind of a jackass) upholding right and dealing with evil in an orderly, if unfriendly, way. And then, as time went on, her grip on sanity slowly slipped, believing herself to be more and more important, and others less and less so. And then Shojo proved to not be who she thought he was, and she became 'Two Face' of sorts.

Note:This is not a defense of Miko, but rather, a defense of the 12 gods, who couldn't possibly be that moronic as to let someone in who's that off her rocker.
Thanks for explaining it some more. Really should see those movies.

[LuisDantas]

The problem with that line of logic is, she must've understood what Lawful and Good meant at one point in her life, or she couldn't have taken the Paladin class in the first place. It's strict like that.

That is indeed an interesting observation to make. Miko is a very unusual case. How come she was ever a Paladin?

I truly don't know. Maybe some of the extra material in the printed books clarifies that. The webcomic sure offers nothing to explain that mystery, which is why I expect her origin tale to be very exciting and informative.



They don't let people like Miko as we see in the comics in in the first place, the vetting system for becoming a level 1 Paladin sees to that. Moreover, since her original class was monk, she must've understood self discipline enough at one point to take on the training necessary to be one.


Miko does excel in discipline, almost to the point of being a masochist.

Even I was touched by the tough deal she had with Roy, Belkar and Shojo. She was awesomely strong to stand up to such abuse as she did, a feat made that much more impressive by her obvious lack of adequate wisdom or even knowledge with which to do so.

Unfortunately, it just couldn't keep working forever. She was stuck in a cycle that kept adding to the pressure, and Shojo failed to notice that and giving her a way out. Or maybe he wanted her to break, I don't know.



Again, if she wasn't lawful, she couldn't take the 1st level of monk. That's how the system works.

The Giant's take on alignments is a bit mechanical for my tastes. His statements about the matter so much as say outright that lawfulness may be supported by self-delusion.

Why the 12 Gods would accept that, I have no idea. Except that what we say of them suggests that they do not have particularly remarkable wisdom or perception, so maybe they simply did not notice what she was like.



So, in the 12 years she worked for Azure City, she may have been a jackass, but she must've been Lawful Good in some ways for the 12 Gods to take her on at all.

That would be the default assumption, sure. But then, so would that she would lose palatinhood whenever she stopped being LG. She does not operate under the standard Paladin rules for whatever reason.



Yeah, it's metagaming, but either Miko was at one point actually Lawful Good, or the 12 gods are a bunch of morons willing to take on Lawful Good in name only Paladins. Your call.

I will take the second, because it is far better supported by the story. There is something of a theme in it that one should not expect the 12 Gods to be particularly helpful, IMO.



Based on deities and demigods, the minimum intelligence and wisdom scores for the gods tend to be in the 20s, and sometimes they get as high as 40 or 50.

The Harvey Dent->Two Face analogy is what I was going for. Harvey Dent, on his own, was Lawful Good. Then Rachel got killed, he got half his face burned off, and he went insane and Lawful Evil, deciding whether people should live or die based on a coin toss. (Lawful Evil because he always went by what the coin said, whether he agreed with it or not.)

Perhaps Miko was once like Hinjo and O Chul (Except she obviously never put a skill rank into diplomacy or sense motive, and was therefore kind of a jackass) upholding right and dealing with evil in an orderly, if unfriendly, way. And then, as time went on, her grip on sanity slowly slipped, believing herself to be more and more important, and others less and less so. And then Shojo proved to not be who she thought he was, and she became 'Two Face' of sorts.

Trouble is, Miko's alignment shifted only very slightly with Shojo's revelation. She was hardly any different when dealing with Belkar some time earlier, to the point that even Belkar realized she was easily breakable and attempted to deflagrate it. Miko was actually more subdued when she felt betrayed by Shojo, mainly because she then convinced herself that she had a Grand Destiny to fulfill by challenging what she saw as a corrupt order.

Miko did not become less good by deciding to kill Shojo. She was instead just a bit more full of herself.



Note:This is not a defense of Miko, but rather, a defense of the 12 gods, who couldn't possibly be that moronic as to let someone in who's that off her rocker.


But we know that they did, don't we?

[Angelalex242]

Against the 12 Gods being idiots is the fact that Miko's the ONLY paladin like that in the Sapphire Guard. All the other Paladins...at least, all the ones seen on screen...seem to be decent, caring people that deserve their character class. And since Lord Soon was a ghost martyr the whole time she was chosen, one can also deduce that even if the 12 gods missed something, at least HE would've noticed someone not living up to his ideals. He certainly seemed able to analyze Miko's behavior for exactly what it was in her death scene, anyway, and did so with considerable insight. Lord Soon was definitely a guy with max ranks in Sense Motive. Very possibly also with max ranks in Knowledge Nobility, Knowledge Religion, and Diplomacy.

Indeed, the one surviving member of the Sapphire Guard after the symbol of insanity commits seppuku immediately after asking 'what have I done?' Which is about what you'd expect from a Samurai.

Thus, I have the idea for a slow deterioration towards madness, of a once lawful and good woman corrupted over time by her own ego and madness, and falling into a pit from which even the 12 gods could no longer save her.

[Keltest]

Against the 12 Gods being idiots is the fact that Miko's the ONLY paladin like that in the Sapphire Guard. All the other Paladins...at least, all the ones seen on screen...seem to be decent, caring people that deserve their character class. And since Lord Soon was a ghost martyr the whole time she was chosen, one can also deduce that even if the 12 gods missed something, at least HE would've noticed someone not living up to his ideals. He certainly seemed able to analyze Miko's behavior for exactly what it was in her death scene, anyway, and did so with considerable insight. Lord Soon was definitely a guy with max ranks in Sense Motive. Very possibly also with max ranks in Knowledge Nobility, Knowledge Religion, and Diplomacy.

Indeed, the one surviving member of the Sapphire Guard after the symbol of insanity commits seppuku immediately after asking 'what have I done?' Which is about what you'd expect from a Samurai.

Thus, I have the idea for a slow deterioration towards madness, of a once lawful and good woman corrupted over time by her own ego and madness, and falling into a pit from which even the 12 gods could no longer save her.

It wasn't particularly slow. Using the Giant's tape metaphor, it might have frayed a little, but it didn't come close to being removed until she learned of Shojo's betrayal (of their trust, if nothing else.) Before that, shes fairly stable, if misinformed. After that, its hard to follow her thinking.

[Angelalex242]

That...is more like the Two Face scenario posited earlier. When you lose half your face and your fiancée, or the guy who raised you makes it clear he has no honor after all...as Joker said, madness is like gravity, and all it takes a little PUSH...

[Clistenes]

Seriously, Miko was right there with Harvey Dent. She was Azure City's white knight until, tragically, Lord Shojo gave her a little push...

The Giant said that, without Shojo's influence she would have left the monastery an angry, unstable, individual without direction. Shojo helped her become a Paladin, he was "the tape that kept her together" but she had issues of her own that Shojo couldn't fix. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?222955-Disappointing-Fathers-and-Saintly-Mothers-in-OOTS/page2&p=12240910#post12240910)


That is indeed an interesting observation to make. Miko is a very unusual case. How come she was ever a Paladin?

I truly don't know. Maybe some of the extra material in the printed books clarifies that. The webcomic sure offers nothing to explain that mystery, which is why I expect her origin tale to be very exciting and informative.

Paladins in the Stickverse can be jerks. Durkon and Roy used to be part of a team that included a Paladin who plotted Durkon's murder because he was annoying; said Paladin asked Roy to do the job because he would fall if he did so.

Also, the Sapphire Paladins who slaughtered Redcloak's family were a bunch of merciless racist ******* child-killers; the Giant said that some may have fallen due to their crimes, but the fact is, those were Paladins despite being quite evil.

It seems that, in the Stickverseif you identify as Good you can be a Paladin despite having an evil personality so long as you don't break the rules (that is, so long as you don't ACT evil).


Against the 12 Gods being idiots is the fact that Miko's the ONLY paladin like that in the Sapphire Guard. All the other Paladins...at least, all the ones seen on screen...seem to be decent, caring people that deserve their character class.

You should read Start of Darkness.

[Koo Rehtorb]

The problem with Miko's LG alignment is that it is informed instead of shown.

Miko was perfectly in keeping with a harsh and unpleasant side of LG ever since we met her and remained that way up until the point she fell.

There is nothing saying that LG people have to be pleasant, personable, or particularly reasonable.

[Keltest]

Miko was perfectly in keeping with a harsh and unpleasant side of LG ever since we met her and remained that way up until the point she fell.

There is nothing saying that LG people have to be pleasant, personable, or particularly reasonable.

Hows is go? Lawful good is not Lawful nice?

[Koo Rehtorb]

Hows is go? Lawful good is not Lawful nice?

Sounds about right.

[Angelalex242]

Well, in the case of Paladins, there are obvious dangers to NOT having kindness in your heart. Particularly when all that's holding you together is the thought of your dear old foster dad who you have put your complete faith in, and without which, you'd soon belong in Arkham Asylum.

[Koo Rehtorb]

In my opinion paladins are always supposed to be tragic figures no matter what. A proper paladin should either fall or die at some point in their life because they're people trying to hold to a rigid code unattainable by mortals.

Either they relax their code in the name of pragmatism and fall for it, or they refuse to compromise their morals and die for it. Candles that burn brightest burn shortest and such.

[bladequeen420]

I think she's in the lawful neutral afterlife,also i think she's just a parody of how n00bs play a plaladin
Ps i'm trying to start a pathfinder group

[Angelalex242]

Koo: Not true.

Sir Galahad ascends when he finds the holy grail, making ascension the third option. (I have several Paladin characters that fall for Celestials. Those Half Celestials gotta come from somewhere, why not me, right?)

And while King Arthur does eventually die, he lives to be in his 40s or even 50s before Mordred finally gets him. And that's more Mordred's treachery getting him then his own code.

[multilis]

It wasn't particularly slow. Using the Giant's tape metaphor, it might have frayed a little, but it didn't come close to being removed until she learned of Shojo's betrayal (of their trust, if nothing else.) Before that, shes fairly stable, if misinformed. After that, its hard to follow her thinking.
I think it is very easy to follow her thinking. She thought that her leader and OOTS were working for the evil side, and survival of the world was at stake and she was only one who might be able to save the world. It is really easy to rewrite the plot while leaving everything she experienced the same so she would be right.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0595.html (Power of Plot - Easy to write story so that any choice other than kill Miko's boss would lead to boss arranging for Miko to die while he finishes his evil plot. In Game of Thrones for example Ned Stark is considered an idiot for making opposite sort of choice as Miko at the crucial moment. A change of plot and Ned is the hero who makes the crucial right decision, the innocent queen, mother of the king was raped by her brother rather than willing incest and Ned's act of kindness inspires others to reform. )


It would also be easy to rewrite the plot so that Roy would look much worse than Miko as result of allowing Belkar to be long term member of party, despite evidence he was evil, without changing anything Roy experienced.... Roy if Paladin would lose his paladin status for this, as well as number of other actions. TO degree that *is happening right now* with Roy and the new High Priest of Hel. (Eg: alternative plot of Belkar the high priest of war, secretly working with the IFCC. Miko was the only one smart enough to say "don't trust him". We have that now with Belkar being only one smart enough to not trust Durkula)

[Angelalex242]

Ya know, I went back in time, to 2007, and read the original debate on Chapter 464.

And back then, I saw roughly half the posters were doing a tapdance, the salsa, or possibly even a riverdance on her grave. The others said she'd gotten a fine sendoff.

But then I noticed something. The biggest argument for Miko making it to Celestia is, "Soon was headed there. Did he really have time to drop Miko off at some other plane before going to Celestia himself? Of course, that may just mean Soon dropped her off in front of the bureaucratic deva for the Southern Gods. It could also mean Soon, and other Paladins and Clerics of the 12 Gods, actually go to the Celestial Realm of the 12 gods, as Paladins and Clerics of deities tend to go straight to the divine realms of those deities. But since Miko lost favor, she might be stuck on basic Mt. Celestia.

It is similar with Durkon...the moment Durkula is staked, he's not going to Mt. Celestia, he's going to Thor's divine realm of Valhalla. Or at least Thor's section of it, because technically Odin gets half the honored male dead, and Freya, in her hall of Surusmir, gets all the female honored dead and the other half of the male honored dead.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

It could also mean Soon, and other Paladins and Clerics of the 12 Gods, actually go to the Celestial Realm of the 12 gods, as Paladins and Clerics of deities tend to go straight to the divine realms of those deities. But since Miko lost favor, she might be stuck on basic Mt. Celestia.

We see the High Priest of the Twelve Gods at Mt. Celestia, along with other Paladins, here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0486.html), so my guess is that everyone still LG goes there.

[Angelalex242]

Well, other Paladins are in that line too, so maybe they have to go through the sorting hat to see if they go to the 12 Gods's personal divine realm or not. Giant hasn't really said, but in the normal game, divine casters spend eternity with their deities.

[Keltest]

Well, other Paladins are in that line too, so maybe they have to go through the sorting hat to see if they go to the 12 Gods's personal divine realm or not. Giant hasn't really said, but in the normal game, divine casters spend eternity with their deities.

Why are you assuming that the 12 Gods all have one single divine realm? Theyre a pantheon, not a deity with 12 faces or something like that. Presumably the various gods of the 12 gods live in alignment-appropriate outer planes.

[Angelalex242]

Sure, but the Paladins seem to worship all of them, and so does the cleric.

And I don't think Giant ever told us which of the 12 Gods is actually the Lawful Good one.

Also, of note, when Miko fell, all 12 of them zapped her, even the evil one, if there was any.

It may even be all 12 of them are Lawful Good, and which one you go to is based on your birth year, as it's clearly meant to be the Chinese Zodiac.

[hamishspence]

Why are you assuming that the 12 Gods all have one single divine realm? Theyre a pantheon, not a deity with 12 faces or something like that. Presumably the various gods of the 12 gods live in alignment-appropriate outer planes.

Of the 17 planes, 12 (including 2 of the Lower Planes) are not Mildly Evil Aligned or worse.

Would be interesting if Rat, one of the Dark One's few allies - shares Acheron with him.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Sure, but the Paladins seem to worship all of them, and so does the cleric.

And I don't think Giant ever told us which of the 12 Gods is actually the Lawful Good one.

Also, of note, when Miko fell, all 12 of them zapped her, even the evil one, if there was any.

It may even be all 12 of them are Lawful Good, and which one you go to is based on your birth year, as it's clearly meant to be the Chinese Zodiac.
I think it would be determined by which one matches your alignment.

They are not all Lawful Good. In Start of Darkness, Rat is shown to be one of the Evil gods.

[hamishspence]

In Start of Darkness, Rat is shown to be one of the Evil gods.

Or, at the very least, "one of The Dark One's allies".

[Porthos]

All I know is if she ever runs across the Harmonium, it'll be love at first sight. Sure, not all of the Hardheads (or even most of them) are the stereotypical SLASH SLASH SLASH types. But enough of them are that she will probably find her peace there.

And, yes, I pretty much have her pegged for Arcadia as well. Mostly because it's where I think she fits the best pre-Shojo bisecting. Even before her breakdown I had her pegged as stradling the LG/LN line. And what I saw after the actual breakdown (I tend to discount what actually happened DURING the breakdown for plane of destination since it is darned difficult to actually peg a persons alignment when their in the throes of what I consider to be a mental breakdown) didn't change my opinion one jot.

Maybe she could have learned to have a different worldview with enough time. But when it comes right down to it, I think that's pretty much where she'd be the most comfortable. It's not like Arcadia is a terrible afterlife or anything (though it would be for Chaotic types :smallwink:). After all, it is using Order to Promote Good. Or Good to Promote Order. Either one suits Miko fairly well.

Now could she have messed up enough to be sent to a Gatetown? I suppose. OTOH, I think her worldview is pretty entrenched, so I think she 'belongs' in Arcadia anyway.

'sides, Arcadia is close enough to Celestia that Windstriker can indeed visit when the mood strikes him. :smallwink:

[Angelalex242]

Yeah. I'm not sure it's fair to balance one day of madness against a lifetime of servitude, even if the day of madness was the last day of her life. Of course, it's very likely that it's fortunate she died so quickly, as he alignment may well have deteriorated in truth had she had more life to live.

Lord Soon talks about how she might've found redemption had she time, but it may also be that death was her redemption, and prevented her from going any further down the slippery slope of madness. Lord Soon was like a lifeline to a drowning swimmer, and his kindness very likely saved her soul, even if her Paladinhood was unsalvageable. Which was likely among the many reasons he was so kind and patient with her. He knew very well her soul was something worth fighting for, and moreover, was something that would require his efforts to fight for, and did his damndest to do exactly that. Saving her soul may have been an epic level challenge, but Lord Soon had max ranks in diplomacy, sense motive, knowledge nobility, and knowledge religion, and knew exactly how to phrase things to draw her back from Mechanus, Archeron, or even Baator.

Having a Wisdom in the 20s and a charisma in the 30s was also necessary.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Or, at the very least, "one of The Dark One's allies".

Huh, for some reason I thought he was with Loki and Tiamat when they protected the Dark One. Well, being a person who calls Tiamat "T" is probably a good indicator that they are friends, which is in itself a good indicator that he is Evil.

[hamishspence]

While I wouldn't rule out a "LN with evil tendencies" person being friends with a LE one - it does seem more likely.

[Angelalex242]

If Rat is evil...

Then why was Rat with the other 11 Gods when Zapping Miko?

You'd think an evil god as no business judging the behavior of a Paladin.

[Khay]

We see the High Priest of the Twelve Gods at Mt. Celestia, along with other Paladins, here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0486.html), so my guess is that everyone still LG goes there.

Fun thought: What if the High Priest is considered to be non-theistic? He doesn't worship anyone in specific, but the abstract "cause" of The-Twelve-Gods. :smallbiggrin:

[Grytorm]

If Rat is evil...

Then why was Rat with the other 11 Gods when Zapping Miko?

You'd think an evil god as no business judging the behavior of a Paladin.

Perhaps they take a somewhat disinterested take on the world and see it as a properly running machine instead of an antagonistic adversarial role. Although they might disagree on personal choices they work together to administrate reality while sponsoring different characters. So Rat might be patron of thieves and grant them favor but he still is on the side of the pantheon as a whole.

[Angelalex242]

There's also the fact there's not a single Azurite who only worships one of the 12 gods. Every last one of 'em. from Miko the off her rocker to the more reasonable Soon, Hinjo, O Chul, and even the clerics...always worship the entire Pantheon, never just one of them.

Nobody says 'I'm a cleric of Dragon, or Tiger, or anyone else.'

[Jaxzan Proditor]

If Rat is evil...

Then why was Rat with the other 11 Gods when Zapping Miko?

You'd think an evil god as no business judging the behavior of a Paladin.

Sadly, I am not privy to the thoughts of Rat and as to why he and his other potentially non-LG colleagues were there. My guess is that in situations where a huge statement like that is being made, all Twelve Gods participate. Someone else has judged Miko, but they are all executioners.

Also, here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?239187-Questions-on-the-OotS-religion&p=13053125#post13053125) is some Word of Giant regarding the Southern Pantheon.

[Angelalex242]

Regardless, if Soon successfully kept her out of Mechanus, or worse, I wonder how much XP he got in his final moments for pulling that off? He was an epic level character, it's true, but that was equally an epic level challenge to get through to someone that thick headed.

Be hilarious if he leveled up one last time on his way to Mt. Celestia for that.

[Snails]

I say Miko was TN with pretensions and enough dedication towards going through the motions that the gods gave her the benefit of the doubt. While the slice of life we observe is presumably atypical, we still lack hard evidence that she deserves a Lawful or Good merit badge.

As for the "trying matters" argument, her kind of trying differed in a key aspect from Roy: Roy demonstrated the capacity to learn from his mistakes. When Roy tries, he gets better and better at growing past he weaknesses. When Miko tries, she gets worse.

As for Windstriker,Soon's promise was very vague. I would not be surprised if Windstriker visits only zero or one time. It seems to me that Miko was angling for the solace that Windstriker would be hers in the afterlife. Soon understood what she meant and did not actually answer the question.

[FujinAkari]

I say Miko was TN with pretensions and enough dedication towards going through the motions that the gods gave her the benefit of the doubt. While the slice of life we observe is presumably atypical, we still lack hard evidence that she deserves a Lawful or Good merit badge.

Strongly Disagree. Miko was practically a poster-child for Lawful. We can debate good, but I boggle at those that challenge her devotion to the code.


As for the "trying matters" argument, her kind of trying differed in a key aspect from Roy: Roy demonstrated the capacity to learn from his mistakes. When Roy tries, he gets better and better at growing past he weaknesses. When Miko tries, she gets worse.

It seems like you are trying to use the fact that Miko wasn't effective when she tried as a refutation of the statement that effectiveness isn't considered. That makes a fairly poor argument :)


As for Windstriker,Soon's promise was very vague. I would not be surprised if Windstriker visits only zero or one time. It seems to me that Miko was angling for the solace that Windstriker would be hers in the afterlife. Soon understood what she meant and did not actually answer the question.

Sorry, no. This amounts to saying that Soon lied by omission, and he is literally prohibited from doing that. We can say that Soon was unsure how often Windstriker would get to visit, but we cannot say that Soon doubted Windstriker would be unable to visit at all.

[Angelalex242]

That discredits Lord Soon a little too much. He is an epic level paladin with higher honor and grace then the rest of the Sapphire Guard. I suspect Windstriker will indeed see her frequently, and I don't believe she's ending up in the Outlands either. The majority vote is still Arcadia.

She would still be taken to Mt. Celestia for Judgement, however, as Lord Soon has to drop her off at the Southern Gods' bureaucratic deva for judgment. But he is still taking her as far as that Deva. And whatever woe the worst day of her life brought, she still has 12 years of faithful service on her record. It wasn't PLEASANT faithful service, as even other Sapphire Guard members don't want her around, but faithful service nonetheless.

Considering 12 years vs. 1 bad day (and actually less then 24 hours worth of bad day at that, a good portion of which she was unconscious for, and most of the rest she was in silent prayer for), she will at least make into Arcadia, as is the Majority vote. Depending how successful Lord Soon was at saving her soul, she might even make it to Mt. Celestia, there to remain at the Tavern of One Night Stands till she chills out. :P

[hamishspence]

We can debate good, but I boggle at those that challenge her devotion to the code.

Just how devoted to "the code" was she after killing Shojo?


People think that using the "personal code" option makes life as a Lawful character easier. It shouldn't. It should be harder to maintain an entirely self-directed personal code than it is to subscribe to the code of an existing country or organization. This is one of the reasons that most Lawful characters follow an external code. It is not required, no, but it is much, much easier. Exceptions should be unusual and noteworthy. It should be an exceptional roleplaying challenge to take on the burden of holding yourself to a strict code even when there are no external penalties for failing.

So as far as vigilantism goes, if a character has a specific pre-established personal code that involves personally punishing those who commit offenses, then yes, they could still be Lawful. Most characters do not have such a code; most characters simply follow general ideas of their alignment on a case-by-case basis. Certainly none of the characters in OOTS have such a code except perhaps for Miko. And we all saw what a slippery slope that turned out to be.

[Angelalex242]

The Giant's quote does still identify her as Lawful, according to her own code, as she is notably the only one with such a radical code. Actually, it almost makes Miko sound like Batman who went off the rails. (There's a reason Batman has a thou shalt not kill code)

The trick, for Lord Soon, presumably, is to get her back to good with his wisdom and diplomacy before it's too late.

[Rougn]

Keep in mind this is what I would declare if I was the DM in charge of deciding her fate to one of my characters. I am trying to put my personal hatred of her aside for that reason.

Miko was in fact a good character she struggled through her life as any person normally would and through it all she was able to raise up to a very prestigious group of paladins. During this time she did in fact show that she followed the laws to the letter and followed orders to the best of her abilities. On top of that she went out of her way to help those in desperate need and did not seek reward and in fact turned down rewards when it was presented to her. This strikes me as a Good person. She cares for others before herself. Then enter the Order of the Stick: An adventuring group she knows very little about but was told they are trying to destroy the world and that she is needed to escort them to her King for a trial.

She walks to them and informs the group they are on trial for crimes that if found guilty is punishable by death. She then hears their leader say they will not go down without a fight. After the battle in which she wins she is told by a cleric that they are in fact good people and this is all a misunderstanding. However; using her magic she found their leader to be evil. It is at this point it is revealed they have a magical item that actually changes the detected alignment of the person holding it. Now something all my players know is this: Never trust in knowing what a magic object does without studying it. Its a bag that holds massive amounts of stuff? Its a bag of holding! or a bag of devouring.... That item could easily have been a simple change alignment necklace an item everyone in the party COULD, though unlikely, possess. When she investigates the rest of the party it appears to be good. Everyone checks out even their rogue...Until their ranger refuses to submit to the test and she is unable to detect his alignment. Red flag.

They reluctantly agree to travel with her only because their leader wants to have sex with her a fact she knows about already. After traveling with them for a few days she is treated horribly and is even attacked a second time by the group after their gold was destroyed. (I am aware only haley really cared but she doesn't know that. She is just aware of the fact she was attacked again after that happened).

Finally she manages to take them to her homeland and put them behind bars. On their court date she goes to retrieve the ranger who she already distrusts and who's alignment is unknown to discover that he broke out and has went on a killing rampage through the castle. She then spends the day chasing after him trying to capture him or kill him. Until finally she chases him into the court room to be ambushed by the Order of the Stick. She now knows they are aiding a murderer. She also learns they where found innocent of the crime they where brought for. She reluctantly leaves after being ordered to by her King she is not happy with the order but she leaves.

Next she walks in on her king telling the Order of the Stick that he is actually using the paladins, faked the trial, and has been doing illegal matters behind close doors. The court system that she devoted her life to has been nothing more then a sham. (After she rode to inform them that the lich the order told her they killed was actually on its way to attack the city)

This means all her sacrifices she did, all the hard decisions shes made, and everything her entire life has been working for has been used for what she feels is evil. This is most likely equivalent to you finding out the donations you have been making have been used to kill children in Africa. She then believes her only option is simple: Kill the King. He committed high treason and he admitted it.

This is where her first mistakes arises. A true paladin would have taken him into custody and gathered the most trustworthy and loyal paladins she knows to hold the trial. She should have created a new court one that she knew would be unbiased and fair one that he had no control over. She should have followed the intent of the law. She did not. Even though she acted in the manner she believed to be the one to save her kingdom she still broke the law. That is unforgivable for a paladin to do.

After she murdered him and she lost her paladin levels she then blamed the group that aided a murderer, a group who attacked her twice, a group who she now knows is technically guilty and was found innocent only because the trial was fixed, and above all the group that revealed her king's corruption to her. She then commits her second mistake. She takes justice into her own hands and tries to kill them in revenge. Another unforgivable act for a paladin.

Inside her prison cell she meditates to find the answer to ease her trouble mind. She is seeking atonement. She is offered to become a fallen paladin but refuses because she wants to do good and as she prays in battle seeking and answer she sees that the bar is flawed and she breaks out. She runs looking for what the Gods want her to do and she discovers that the sapphire paladins have fallen in the throne room. Wither or not she knows about the ghosts is unknown though plausible considering how casual her conversation with Soon was. (could be argued she knows she is dying and figures a dead person is suitable for guiding her to death) What she sees is her old commander sword drawn trying to destroy the gem. She knows this can not fall into the handles of the lich. So she does the only thing she thinks she can do. She sacrifices herself to destroy the gem. She does not know this was not needed nor did she know what she had done. The warning came too late and even Soon understood and forgave her. Depending on how this was roleplayed to me the selfless act might have earned her atonement. However she died without it she died a monk.

Now saying all that (sorry for the long post) I would say her entire life trying to be lawful good and as a paladin she was known as the best the sapphire guard had. However she committed 2 things that require atonement. While the Order of the Stick could be argued to have drove her to those mistakes the point is moot. Her actions where of her own free will. Therefore I would not allow her the right to enter The Seven Mounting Heavens of Celestia. That plane is only for saints and paladins. She died a monk and she was not a saint in life even though she tried hard to be one.

I would send her to Arcadia. She actions in life showed she was lawful good and was an amazing paladin until her last few days. Therefore the lawful good plane of Arcadia is right for her. However there is something to be considered about this. Arcadia is not Celestia. That means it does not have the same rewards as Celestia has so her horse would be banned from her. This could be argued for two reasons. 1: While she did strive to do the best she could do she does deserve some punishment for killing and attempting to kill people without trial. Forbidding her to ever see her horse again strikes me as a good punishment. 2: Celestia and Arcadia are not touching. The planes have another plane between them: The Outlands. Without her spell to summon her horse its up to him to find her which would be near impossible with The Outlands separating them.

That being said Soon telling her she would never see her stead again is a pointless statement. He is not in charge of that. So depending on how they review her she MIGHT make it into Celestia they might reward her with redemption for her final deed as misguided as it was.

Those are her only two options Celestia or Arcadia. One mistake that she was repenting for is not enough to lower her alignment nor ignore her entire life's work. The only reason it is brought up is because a Paladin is a ridiculously hard and elite group where a single action can take everything away. Knowing this that means for 12 years she was the perfect example of lawful good you could be. The one act made her fall from Celestia to Arcadia but not from Celestia to Outlands or worse her act was that evil. Though I can see how Mechanus could be argued.

EDIT: By my comment of Soon I meant this: Yes he is most likely the most perfect example of honor and good the world has ever know. Yes he is a legendary paladin who can not lie. This does not mean he can not be mistaken. He could simply see Miko is dying as a monk and tell hey his honest opinion. No he does not believe she will see Windstriker again. However considering he is only a paladin and is not a judge nor does he decide who goes where his comment can easily be overruled by the person is charge. He honestly thought she would not but the one who decides went with yes; her 12 years plus her sacrifice earned her the right to Celestia.

[hamishspence]

Keep in mind Roy got into Celestia and he was a long way from being a saint.

That said - besides killing Shojo and trying to kill Order members - she also tried to kill Hinjo.

[Rougn]

Keep in mind Roy got into Celestia and he was a long way from being a saint.

That said - besides killing Shojo and trying to kill Order members - she also tried to kill Hinjo.

Roy getting into Celestia is the problem I think; while yes he was lawful good he did not really do anything IMO to earn that right. I would see it as he belongs to Arcadia maybe him trying to save the world bumped him I do not know but the Giant ruled so xD

As for attacking Hinjo i did miss that one; however she is right to want to deny being judged by a court she knows is corrupted. If she felt she was just going to be swept under the rug to keep this incident from surfacing...Its the age old problem. Sometimes a good person has to kill a good person to save the world. She might have felt that the only way to cure the city was to eliminate the threats. Her actions are justified in her mind following her own code to be Lawful and she is trying to be good even though in those last 24 hours she did a horrible job of it. I just don't see how her being so misguided for 1 day could cause her to be thrown down an entire alignment. She thought she was doing good and thought she was doing what the gods wished.

[Angelalex242]

Couple things:You do not have to be a saint or excessively holy to make it into Mt. Celestia in OOTS world. Roy, a plain old not so pious fighter made the cut. In fact, his mom and his baby brother made the cut, and the latter didn't even have a proper life to live, since he died as a child. His grandfather, also a fighter, made the cut. You do not divine caster levels to make it to Mt. Celestia, and Lord Soon is certainly aware of this. Moreover, many plain old members of the Azure City military who were NOT sapphire guard were seen in the same line as...the Sapphire Guard, and even the high cleric of the 12 gods! They do not even give the Paladins and Clerics an express line in OOTS world. And you really would think they would.

Note about trying to kill someone: If trying to kill someone was enough for a Paladin to lose powers, she would've fallen for trying to kill Roy back in episode 200. So dueling Hinjo is not on her permanent record. Apparently, in OOTS world, Attempted Murder is not a crime. Only successful murder is a crime.

Now...Lord Soon has been a Sacred Watcher (Deathless Paladin) for quite a long time. Decades, in fact. It's safe to say he knows as much about the Celestial Realms as any mortal is ever going to know. If he thinks the horse can visit, he is highly unlikely to be mistaken. Particularly since he's epic level. Remember, Lord Soon said she WOULD see Windstriker again, not that she would NOT see Windstriker again, which seems to be where you went backwards. It is probably fair to say that Lord Soon is attempting to comfort Miko here with his wisdom and kindness, and considering his station, he can probably even petition the devas if he has to, as only an epic level character can.

In fact...if she did make into Mount Celestia, I think I'd have her tend the stables of Paladin Mounts, wherever they're kept. The single being she loved most in life was undoubtedly her horse, Windstriker.

[Rougn]

Couple things:You do not have to be a saint or excessively holy to make it into Mt. Celestia in OOTS world. Roy, a plain old not so pious fighter made the cut. In fact, his mom and his baby brother made the cut, and the latter didn't even have a proper life to live, since he died as a child. His grandfather, also a fighter, made the cut. You do not divine caster levels to make it to Mt. Celestia, and Lord Soon is certainly aware of this. Moreover, many plain old members of the Azure City military who were NOT sapphire guard were seen in the same line as...the Sapphire Guard, and even the high cleric of the 12 gods! They do not even give the Paladins and Clerics an express line in OOTS world. And you really would think they would.

Note about trying to kill someone: If trying to kill someone was enough for a Paladin to lose powers, she would've fallen for trying to kill Roy back in episode 200. So dueling Hinjo is not on her permanent record. Apparently, in OOTS world, Attempted Murder is not a crime. Only successful murder is a crime.

Now...Lord Soon has been a Sacred Watcher (Deathless Paladin) for quite a long time. Decades, in fact. It's safe to say he knows as much about the Celestial Realms as any mortal is ever going to know. If he thinks the horse can visit, he is highly unlikely to be mistaken. Particularly since he's epic level. Remember, Lord Soon said she WOULD see Windstriker again, not that she would NOT see Windstriker again, which seems to be where you went backwards. It is probably fair to say that Lord Soon is attempting to comfort Miko here with his wisdom and kindness, and considering his station, he can probably even petition the devas if he has to, as only an epic level character can.

My mistake with Windstriker should have reread that comic; as for the rest thats why I said as a DMing Miko because in OOTS is not my world nor do I understand the workings of Miko like the Giant does. Attempted murder is against the law in OOTS remember V killed a person for attempted murder to save them the trial the difference in this case is that we are not dealing with laws. We are dealing with alignment. Her killing a defenseless man went against the Paladin's lawful good rules therefore it is gone she was punished for killing.

As for the ease of entering Celestia again that why I said if I was DMing; Celestia is suppose to be a place reserved only for the purest of pure but from a storyline point the climbing and everything is alot cooler and better then Arcadia. This is actually good for Miko because she did repent and she tried to do good and since nonsaints and paladins are entering Celestia then given her past and her trying should make it easy for her to enter Celestia. If by some chance Celestia has a rule of no killers then Arcadia is the only other option. With Celestia letting in so many people Arcadia should easily pick her up. So this really pushes me to believe in OOTS she would go to Celestia

[hamishspence]

Some possible reasons for Arcadia:

She was teetering on the LG/LN border for a while - the murder simply "pushed her over".
She did not in any way repent of killing Shojo.

Those are the first that spring to mind.

[Angelalex242]

Well...let's look at the possible endings.

In the Arcadia ending, she ends up on the Holy Hitsquads of Arcadia, rooting out evil ruthlessly.
In the Celestia ending, she, as I just said, ends up a stable keeper, perhaps, tending Paladin Mounts, like Windstriker, that she loved so dearly in life.

...I cannot truly say which task she'd be happier doing. It seems like she wins either way. The latter would certainly teach her humility, though.

[Rougn]

Some possible reasons for Arcadia:

She was teetering on the LG/LN border for a while - the murder simply "pushed her over".
She did not in any way repent of killing Shojo.

Those are the first that spring to mind.

How was she bordering on LG/LN? Yes during her last 24 hours she made a few mistakes however if you where to take away those last 24 hours and view her life everyone agrees she is the perfect paladin.

As for Shojo; she was praying to the Gods for guidance. That is the first step for a paladin to repent.

EDIT: Just realized where does it say Roy got into Celestia? She welcomes him to the celestial realm which just means heavenly really. Am I missing a comic that says its Celestia otherwise he could easily have been inside of Bytopia.

[hamishspence]

however if you where to take away those last 24 hours and view her life everyone agrees she is the perfect paladin.

I paraphrase:

From No Cure for the Paladin Blues - "Miko is one of the worst ways to play a paladin"

From War & XPs "This was the culmination of years of behaviour - being too quick to pull out the katana ... she pushed and pushed at the edges of her alignment and what it means to be a paladin, until finally she broke through."

To quote Soon:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0464.html

"True redemption requires that you seek forgiveness for your past misdeeds. That you atone for the actions that caused the Twelve Gods to turn away from you. That you even acknowledge that you could, in fact, be wrong. You have done none of this."



EDIT: Just realized where does it say Roy got into Celestia? She welcomes him to the celestial realm which just means heavenly really. Am I missing a comic that says its Celestia otherwise he could easily have been inside of Bytopia.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0492.html

The fact that it's "the mountain" combined with Roy's guide being an archon, is a hint.

Also - the mountain having "levels"

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0497.html

(Celestia has 7).

[Rougn]

I paraphrase:

From No Cure for the Paladin Blues - "Miko is one of the worst ways to play a paladin"

From War & XPs "This was the culmination of years of behaviour - being too quick to pull out the katana ... she pushed and pushed at the edges of her alignment and what it means to be a paladin, until finally she broke through."

To quote Soon:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0464.html

"True redemption requires that you seek forgiveness for your past misdeeds. That you atone for the actions that caused the Twelve Gods to turn away from you. That you even acknowledge that you could, in fact, be wrong. You have done none of this."

Ok forgot about the first two quotes however the third one talks of Redemption. To gain atonement he is telling her how she could have gotten back her paladin levels and that was by atoning for the actions that caused the gods to turn on her. Atonement is incredibly hard to achieve, most just go for the spell, however I am simply talking about a person praying for guidance to be forgiven for something they did not for a full blown atonement.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0411.html
in the first panel it is quoted she was one of the finest.

[hamishspence]

"Our finest warrior" means she has the best fighting skills in the Sapphire Guard.

However, as Hinjo helpfully explains - there's good reasons why the rest of them keep her at arm's length:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0265.html

[Rougn]

"Our finest warrior" means she has the best fighting skills in the Sapphire Guard.

However, as Hinjo helpfully explains - there's good reasons why the rest of them keep her at arm's length:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0265.html

That only means she is not fun and that she is a stick in the mud. Neither of those traits ban someone from a lawful good heaven.

Also thanks for linking the comics hinting at where he was; i remember him climbing a mountain which is the first step in Bytopia and that there was multiple levels like Bytopia but the 3rd level bit breaks Bytopia.

[hamishspence]

That only means she is not fun and that she is a stick in the mud. Neither of those traits ban someone from a lawful good heaven.
True- but the end of her career, might.

"Abandoning a friend to an unknown fate" was nearly enough for Roy:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0488.html

the only mitigating factor being that he changed his mind and went back.

[Rougn]

True- but the end of her career, might.

"Abandoning a friend to an unknown fate" was nearly enough for Roy:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0488.html

the only mitigating factor being that he changed his mind and went back.

True but he did that because Elan annoyed him. She was mad that he was willing to let Elan die because he annoyed him. Miko however killed because she heard him admit to high treason and that she felt the Gods picked her to end the corruption. She was mistaken however as the lady said it is about intent. Her intent was pure just misguided.

[hamishspence]

To paraphrase an old quote: "The road to the Lower Planes is paved with Good Intentions". :smallamused:

[Rougn]

To paraphrase an old quote: "The road to the Lower Planes is paved with Good Intentions". :smallamused:

That quote might have merits if it was not for the fact it was proven that trying gets you to heaven :smallcool: She was TRYING to be good.

[Angelalex242]

Well...we're balancing one bad day of certifiable insanity against 12 years of service.

And of the time since she fell...she was knocked unconscious, STAYED unconscious till what seemed to be morning the next day, mediated for most of the rest of the time, possibly without being fed or even given water, snapped Sabine's neck, went back to meditating, and then escaped prison and ran downstairs to take the last meaningful action she'd ever take, which is destroying the jewel.

Lord Soon is quite correct...she didn't repent, because by then she'd lost her mind so badly it wasn't in her to repent anymore, or act with truly rational behavior. Giant did say Shojo was the tape holding her together. Without it, she snapped. Like, Batman villain snapped. Indeed, when she gets up there, she's got a pretty decent 'not guilty by reason of insanity' plea for the deva for her one evil action and her technically duty fulfilling action that Lord Soon would've preferred she'd waited on.

[hamishspence]

It would be interesting to see her review.

[Rougn]

It would be interesting; i view her alot like Sir Lancelot and I always wondered what happened to him after his death

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Seems like we are retreating a lot of old arguments in here. I do not view that Miko was LG at the time of her death. Even if we look at her time as a Paladin, she was still only at the edge of what it meant to be LG, and she followed the rules over being Good.

I would like to see Miko's review too.

[FujinAkari]

Just how devoted to "the code" was she after killing Shojo?

Exceedingly. Her first words (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0464.html) to Soon are to ask whether she has performed her duty.

[Angelalex242]

The last 3 question of her life...even in her madness, which she may or may not have been knocked out of after she was sliced in half...

Were
1:Did I do well? (Seeking Validation from Lord Soon, or perhaps Vindication. Response? "You get a C on your test.")
2:Can I be a Paladin again? (She wants to know if her action successfully atoned for her sins. She thinks she has, since she gave her life performing her duty. Sadly, not enough. Very sadly, considering she died executing that duty, and thus has no chances left. The worst part is, dying to fulfill your oath is USUALLY a surefire way to atone. After all, there's literally no higher price you can pay. Not for Miko, though. Not for Miko.)
3:Will I see Windstriker again? (Finally, she got a positive answer, and died more or less satisfied with that.)

[multilis]

"Miko insane" Was V insane? http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0595.html

[Grytorm]

I do not think Mt. Celestia would be a good afterlife for Miko when compared to Arcadia. The Celestia we saw was a heavenly reward for a well lived life. A place where people slowly progress toward enlightenment away from the cares of the world. If Miko was deemed worthy of an eternal reward then I think Arcadia would be a better place for her to be at peace. Arcadia would be better because it would put her to productive ends and give her a chance to work out mortal failings she would have trouble with in Celestia.

[multilis]

because it would put her to productive ends and give her a chance to work out mortal failings she would have trouble with in Celestia.
Roy has quite a collection of mortal failings as well, depending on how you measure. He got more time, a rez, more help from his friends, and way more help from the plot.

Miko given even a small amount of help from Durkon did make progress on her faults. Much of the time OOTS actually did opposite to helping her, which could be seen as a fault in Roy as compared to Durkon, and not that different from abandoning Elan. At times there wasn't any good reason for them to do so, eg Miko wanted to pinch pennies when escorting prisoners to "save for orphans, etc", OOTS wanted to blow lots of money on hotel as funny.

It is unclear what a Miko like person would have ended up as if given similar time, friends and knowledge as Roy.

V invoices Miko and attempts explosive runes
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0220.html

"One order of glutonny with a side of corruption, please"
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0224.html

V is faulted for killing what she thought was black dragons who in monster manual are "always evil"
Meanwhile compare
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0011.html (lots of other examples of OOTS kill first, ask questions later, who cares if sleeping, etc. Eg Haley recently kills the "police"/guards when escaping, with no seeming regrets afterwards)
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0214.html

[Keltest]

"Miko insane" Was V insane? http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0595.html

no, but V is true neutral and isn't considering everything as thoroughly as he might normally due to lack of sleep.

[multilis]

no, but V is true neutral and isn't considering everything as thoroughly as he might normally due to lack of sleep.
And Miko is not considering everything as thoroughly as she might normally due to lots of different factors including fearing survival of world, and her boss and OOTS lying, and the impression she was given over long period of time by OOTS, see links above for some examples. She was tricked by X and what she saw and heard, just as Roy is now tricked by Durkula.

Miko doubted Belkar, Belkar doubts Durkula... miko looks bad, belkar looks good.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Miko doubted Belkar, Belkar doubts Durkula... miko looks bad, belkar looks good.
I actually don't think Belkar looks good. He has a very small basis for his belief that Durkon is no longer actually Durkon and should be staked immediately. As far as what the Order has seen, he has no evidence that Durkon isn't helping them.

[multilis]

I actually don't think Belkar looks good. He has a very small basis for his belief that Durkon is no longer actually Durkon and should be staked immediately. As far as what the Order has seen, he has no evidence that Durkon isn't helping them.
I take Belkar as being "devil's advocate", just like when what to do with linear guild came up and they talked about trapping souls... a suggestion of extreme may still mean really more open to middle ground.

Belkar is really saying imo we need to be much more careful with this guy, I don't trust him, and we would be better off if he was alive and not a vampire. Roy's lack of caution is risking the world in this case.

...

Meanwhile Miko with Belkar is doing what comes naturally according to rules for a Paladin. (can't willingly hang out with evil guys, she could fall as paladin if she buddied up to him like Elan does)

[VanIsleKnight]

At best, the Lawful Neutral plane.

At worst, the True Neutral plane.

[Reddish Mage]

Some possible reasons for Arcadia:

She was teetering on the LG/LN border for a while - the murder simply "pushed her over".
She did not in any way repent of killing Shojo.

Those are the first that spring to mind.

I know you would like to see her in TN, but isn't Arcadia's bordering Celestia appears in Greyhawk while the Outlands and other planes containing permanent Gates being more of a Planescape thing? I tend to think Rich's Cosmology will prove to be more vanilla then the rich details of Planescape.

Also, how do we know she was boarding on "Lawful Neutral?" I have sensed such an implication from the Giant's quotes but I don't think he made it explicit.

[Keltest]

I know you would like to see her in TN, but isn't Arcadia's bordering Celestia appears in Greyhawk while the Outlands and other planes containing permanent Gates being more of a Planescape thing? I tend to think Rich's Cosmology will prove to be more vanilla then the rich details of Planescape.

Also, how do we know she was boarding on "Lawful Neutral?" I have sensed such an implication from the Giant's quotes but I don't think he made it explicit.

Word of Giant is that he uses the "default" afterlives system. As for how people know she was bordering on any alignment, they don't. The closest any source comes is the Giant saying that she was pushing the boundaries of Lawful Good for a long while before we meet her. People choose to interpret that in different ways, but we do know for a fact that up until she fell (at least) she was Lawful Good, as she couldn't be otherwise and retain her paladin abilities.

[Clistenes]

Miko doubted Belkar, Belkar doubts Durkula... miko looks bad, belkar looks good.

The problem isn't how she treated Belkar, that was mostly Belkar's fault. The problem is how she treated everybody else and her refusal to follow rules.

[Angelalex242]

I dunno. I get the idea that if Lord Soon called in a favor from a Solar and had her sanity restored to her by means of a Miracle spell or something, she'd collapse in tears over her own actions. Not the least of which being she's in no position to ever apologize to the man who raised her. Though I suppose it's simple enough for an angel (They can be of any good alignment) to travel the celestial planes from Celestia to Arborea and back again to deliver a message for a repentant sinner.

But her mind pretty much has to be healed before she repents. There's a reason why we don't expect people in our insane asylums to repent of their crimes. They're not capable of doing so. That's why we put them in padded rooms.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I take Belkar as being "devil's advocate", just like when what to do with linear guild came up and they talked about trapping souls... a suggestion of extreme may still mean really more open to middle ground.

Belkar is really saying imo we need to be much more careful with this guy, I don't trust him, and we would be better off if he was alive and not a vampire. Roy's lack of caution is risking the world in this case.

...

Meanwhile Miko with Belkar is doing what comes naturally according to rules for a Paladin. (can't willingly hang out with evil guys, she could fall as paladin if she buddied up to him like Elan does)

I don't get how this makes Belkar look good. Roy has made some good points as to why they need Durkon alive. Belkar has a hunch that he's up to no good. I still don't view his point as good.

[hamishspence]

I know you would like to see her in TN, but isn't Arcadia's bordering Celestia appears in Greyhawk while the Outlands and other planes containing permanent Gates being more of a Planescape thing? I tend to think Rich's Cosmology will prove to be more vanilla then the rich details of Planescape.

The 3rd ed MoTP has both.

Personally I don't think Outlandish is the most probable - but it's an interesting possibility after Arcadia and Celestia - a bit more offbeat - and a case where petitioners can end up changing planes.

MotP page 149:


On occasion, these portal towns may suddenly disappear, moving directly onto the plane they are connected to. This my be due to the alignment of the town natives; once a critical mass is reached, the town and its inhabitants are welcomed into the related Outer Plane. This phenomenon is a natural quality of the Outlands. It shrugs off pieces to the various Outer Planes.

Some within the various portal towns are extremely hostile to those that might hold them back from reaching the Outer Plane. Others seek to keep the town (and its merchants) securely moored in the Outlands by making sure there is some darkness in every light, and some light in every dark.

For Miko to go to the Outlands town Excelsior - relearn what it means to be LG - then be shifted to Celestia when the whole town shifts - seems like a good compromise. She deserves Celestia - but at the moment of her death, she wasn't really of the Celestial mindset - so she gets a chance to develop it.

[Reddish Mage]

The 3rd ed MoTP has both.

Personally I don't think Outlandish is the most probable - but it's an interesting possibility after Arcadia and Celestia - a bit more offbeat - and a case where petitioners can end up changing planes.

Intriguing possibilities that make a good argument for why they are inappropriate for Miko. The point of Miko's death and her bodies subsequent and deliberate abandonment by Tsukiko was to get her out of the strip and freeze her character development at that point. A true neutral Miko with the potential to end up in the Lawful Good afterlife simply doesn't sound like the character we ended up with. Or one placed in the afterlife of those who were just not good enough to get onto Mount Celestia but just down off that shining mountain?

Also doesn't this just sound a lot like Miko at her death: a dogmatic fanatic (of an admittedly good cause) desperately grasping at straws as she finds her world view unraveling (the one in which she's always right, special, and favored as the gods' instrument of justice), who shows a faintest glimmer of humility when confronted by the ghost of her religious order's patron after her extremely myopic carrying out of her order's final directive ruined what would have been a fantastically good situation?

[hamishspence]

Quite possibly. That's why I think Arcadia's most likely, then Celestia, with Outlands a distant third.

[multilis]

The problem isn't how she treated Belkar, that was mostly Belkar's fault. The problem is how she treated everybody else and her refusal to follow rules.

(it helps if you give actual examples)


She treated everyone else and how they treated her... two way street, other side was not nice either, including Roy, so does that make Roy neutral?

Roy and friends broke rules in having fake trial.

From Miko's perspective she thought was dealing with a bunch of people who were at best neutral and easily tempted by greed/gluttony and now were lying to paladins and creating fake trials, and X was about to conquer the gate and destroy the world with help of their corruption. People cheered when V did disintegrate+gust of wind given less to work with in goal to "save the world".

Miko comes from world view of save every penny to help orphans, and don't have evil guys as your friends, and always tell the truth.

Not saying Miko was right, rather she was partially tricked by situation, just as Roy is tricked by Durkula now. She made mistakes, but OOTS (with exemption of Durkan) also made mistakes that contributed to her being the fool. (Building respect is a 2 way street, OOTS helped create the distrust that later fooled Miko into taking drastic action, often for an "evil" sort of fun rather than any "good" purpose as far as alignment goes- lets spend lots of Miko's money and potentially take from orphans, rather than our bags of gold, and joke about our corruption and gluttony.)

Roy goes to LG afterlife despite quite a number of "flaws" including some that would make a Paladin fall, I don't think one can say for sure "Miko at best must only be neutral" from evidence we are given including the monologue here which shows the alternative she could fear if she didn't kill her boss when X was at the gates: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0595.html

If being foolish/ignorant/simplistic world view was no excuse, then Elan hitting self destruct button in book 1 with no real remorse after is also to be judged harshly

[Angelalex242]

Well, let's see...

#1: In Arcadia, we have her on the holy hitsquads of the Harmonium, an order dogmatic enough where evil=Slash Slash Slash is entirely appropriate behavior.
#2: In Celestia, I have already brought up the idea of her serving in the celestial stables, taking care of Paladin Mounts, like Windstriker, that she loved best in the mortal world.
#3: In Outlands, she might well be in Excelsior, purging every evil being she can find, and probably some good ones since she can't detect evil anymore, in her quest to stab her way into the afterlife she wants.

...I am honestly unsure whether she would be happiest with #1 or #2, but #3 wouldn't make her very happy at all.

However, we must remember, in deciding her fate, that further character development is not on the horizon. She is frozen in time, in the state she was in #464, and will live out eternity like that.

[Keltest]

(it helps if you give actual examples)


She treated everyone else and how they treated her... two way street, other side was not nice either, including Roy, so does that make Roy neutral?

Roy and friends broke rules in having fake trial.

From Miko's perspective she thought was dealing with a bunch of people who were at best neutral and easily tempted by greed/gluttony and now were lying to paladins and creating fake trials, and X was about to conquer the gate and destroy the world with help of their corruption. People cheered when V did disintegrate+gust of wind given less to work with in goal to "save the world".

Miko comes from world view of save every penny to help orphans, and don't have evil guys as your friends, and always tell the truth.

Not saying Miko was right, rather she was partially tricked by situation, just as Roy is tricked by Durkula now. She made mistakes, but OOTS (with exemption of Durkan) also made mistakes that contributed to her being the fool. (Building respect is a 2 way street, OOTS helped create the distrust that later fooled Miko into taking drastic action, often for an "evil" sort of fun rather than a "good" purpose as far as alignment goes- lets spend lots of Miko's money and potentially take from orphans, rather than our bags of gold)

Roy goes to LG afterlife despite quite a number of "flaws" including some that would make a Paladin fall, I don't think one can say for sure "Miko at best must only be neutral" from evidence we are given including the monologue here which shows the alternative she could fear if she didn't kill her boss when X was at the gates: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0595.html

The problem is that Miko's inability to understand viewpoints outside of her own was one of her biggest character flaws, if not the biggest. From her first appearance, we see her giving a token effort to fulfil her lord's instruction without understanding WHY he gave it (admittedly established after the appearance in question.) She assumes a holier-than-thou attitude with the Order, and instead of being sympathetic when Haley's fortunes were lost, she basically rubs it in her face. When the Order defends Belkar against her, she assumes that they side with Evil for its own sake rather than because she was unpleasant and going out of line. When she learns Xykon is moving to attack the city, she assumes that the Order has to be involved, rather than simply mistaken about Xykon being dead. She assumes that Shojo must be corrupt and involved as well, rather than simply untrusting (or perhaps too confidant in his knowledge of his Paladins).

[multilis]

The problem is that Miko's inability to understand viewpoints outside of her own was one of her biggest character flaws,
I agree. IMO, OOTS other than Durkon contributed to this as well, when they could have helped her overcome that flaw. It is job of the good to defend others, just as Roy helped Elan from bandits. It is evil to just abandon others.

Elan simplistic view of different sort, made him destroy a dungeon in book 1, likely destroying more non evil intelligent beings then V did with her familicide.

[Angelalex242]

All of which can be summed up as, "Miko essentially believed the absolute worst of everyone around her, and sometimes even thought people were evil when they didn't even blip on her evildar."

The Miko we saw in chapter 200 would've blatantly Detected Evil on Lord Shojo, but she wouldn't have stabbed first and asked questions later. The Miko of #200 essentially said 'Detect Evil is the Law. Those who blip must die.' She's devolved since then. That is, she's steadily gotten worse over time from #200 to #464. Now, even NOT blipping on Detect Evil isn't enough to spare you her wrath.

#406 would've made a little more sense for normal Miko if she'd detected evil and, like Roy, Shojo was wearing a magic item that made him appear to be evil. But no, she's not even detecting anymore.

[multilis]

All of which can be summed up as, "Miko essentially believed the absolute worst of everyone around her, and sometimes even thought people were evil when they didn't even blip on her evildar."
Miko meeting a random NPC did not automatically assume evil, *lots* of examples from the time we first met her trying to catch up to OOTS. She always had a reason, such as "destroyed the gate, put world at risk and so important that my wise boss charged me to bring back from ends of earth" You normally don't send the police to other side of world at great expense to arrest non criminals.

[Keltest]

Miko meeting a random NPC did not automatically assume evil, *lots* of examples from the time we first met her trying to catch up to OOTS. She always had a reason, such as "destroyed the gate, put world at risk and so important that my wise boss charged me to bring back from ends of earth" You normally don't send the police to other side of world at great expense to arrest non criminals.

Even so, her first meeting with the OOTS did not color her favorably towards them, even as a paladin. Haley and V were only traveling with her under duress from the rest of the party, Belkar had legitimately malevolent intentions towards her, and Roy and Elan were put off by her attitude. Durkon, being Durkon, didn't really give us enough to know his thoughts on Miko personally, as opposed to her mission.

Its a bit childish, but in this case, she started it.

[multilis]

Even so, her first meeting with the OOTS did not color her favorably towards them, even as a paladin. Haley and V were only traveling with her under duress from the rest of the party, Belkar had legitimately malevolent intentions towards her, and Roy and Elan were put off by her attitude. Durkon, being Durkon, didn't really give us enough to know his thoughts on Miko personally, as opposed to her mission.

Its a bit childish, but in this case, she started it.
Elan started it, he hit the self destruct button. ;P

Miko was following orders. They resisted arrest. Miko's boss started it?

From what I can see no excuse for anyone to say "other side started it". Both sides could done better, only Durkon comes out overall with + to good alignment. When Durkon did his job, Miko responded and did hers as far as alignment goes. Miko then thanked Durkon for helping her do "innocent till proven guilty", "give benefit of doubt".

Roy gave a big monologue about how he became a "good" fighter to help others, he helped Elan eventually after abandoning him, he never really did help Miko after contributing to her distrust of others.

[Angelalex242]

Well, Roy was initially in it for some treasure type O. He didn't turn on her till he puts the sex change belt on. Before that, his trouser titan was in command of his judgment.

It's not an accident Haley and Belkar both start using 'bone' as a verb about why they're going with her. And "The Order of the Stick, as fearlessly led by Roy's pants."

Makes me wonder what would've happened if he actually HAD slept with her at least once. He hadn't started dating Celia yet, so no harm there.

[Keltest]

Elan started it, he hit the self destruct button. ;P

Miko was following orders. They resisted arrest. Miko's boss started it?

From what I can see no excuse for anyone to say "other side started it". Both sides could done better, only Durkon comes out overall with + to good alignment. When Durkon did his job, Miko responded and did hers as far as alignment goes. Miko then thanked Durkon for helping her do "innocent till proven guilty", "give benefit of doubt".

Roy gave a big monologue about how he became a "good" fighter to help others, he helped Elan eventually after abandoning him, he never really did help Miko after contributing to her distrust of others.

"Helping" does not really extend to social guidance. He did not help her with her personal issues, but just because he is good doesn't mean that he has to help or want to help.

[multilis]

Well, Roy was initially in it for some treasure type O. He didn't turn on her till he puts the sex change belt on. Before that, his trouser titan was in command of his judgment. .
He was mixed feelings on her from the start as far as I can tell (not sure if he wanted her), and first contributed to her distrust at renting out the hotel as "corruption and gluttony", there were more diplomatic ways to handle that.

[multilis]

"Helping" does not really extend to social guidance. He did not help her with her personal issues, but just because he is good doesn't mean that he has to help or want to help.
Contributing to a situation of actively creating distrust which ends up later risking lives and world fits in good/evil axis imo. The future alignment of others can matter as much or more than their lives now.

Belkar actively trying to make a paladin fall would be evil act, Durkon trying to help a fallen Paladin atone would be a good act.

[Angelalex242]

He's a fighter. Diplomacy is not a class skill for fighters.

It IS a class skill for clerics, however. Notice how Durkon handles it better?

[multilis]

He's a fighter. Diplomacy is not a class skill for fighters.

It IS a class skill for clerics, however. Notice how Durkon handles it better?
Yes and it is not a class skill for Paladins either.

Just because something isn't a skill class, doesn't give excuse not to at least try, which cuts both ways. Excusing Roy also excuses Miko.

At same time Haley probably was high up on diplomacy, and Elan probably not bad either.

[Angelalex242]

Wrong.

Paladins do indeed have diplomacy as a class skill, and pretty much every Paladin except Miko invested some points in it. Hinjo, O Chul, and Lien, notably. And ESPECIALLY Lord Soon, who has that skill maxed.

They even have Sense Motive and Knowledge Nobility as synergy skills for diplomacy.

The problem with Miko is, she maxed out her handle animal and ride skills, probably put ranks into knowledge nobility and knowledge religion, but she didn't put a point into diplomacy or sense motive.

[multilis]

Wrong.

Paladins do indeed have diplomacy as a class skill.
You are correct.

Haley and Elan had diplomacy. Roy was leader of a group of various alignment and goals members and thus constantly requires work on diplomacy. What is good for goose is good for gander.

Your usual fighter would not have high intelligence and practice as leader like Roy.

[Keltest]

Contributing to a situation of actively creating distrust which ends up later risking lives and world fits in good/evil axis imo. The future alignment of others can matter as much or more than their lives now.

Belkar actively trying to make a paladin fall would be evil act, Durkon trying to help a fallen Paladin atone would be a good act.

How did Roy contribute to Miko's suspicions? He was not particularly nice to her, but he did not go out of his way to antagonize her where it was not necessary to do so. What did the order (besides Belkar, who did deserve it) do to make the judgement "They must be working for the Lich we didn't know about until they told us they killed him to spy on our city so that the Lich can attack it!" any more reasonable?

[multilis]

How did Roy contribute to Miko's suspicions?
All of OOTS play "corruption and gluttony is good" at hotel including Roy.
Roy gives big speech about favouring Belkar over her when Belkar is likely evil based on repeated evidence. (A paladin would automatically fall if wanted evil member in same adventuring party)

There were more diplomatic was to do stuff like that, when you already know viewpoint and weaknesses of Miko.

...

Roy just leaving Elan to bandits without contributing to bandits capturing Elan did not make Roy innocent.

[Keltest]

All of OOTS play "corruption and gluttony is good" at hotel including Roy.
Roy gives big speech about favouring Belkar over her when Belkar is likely evil, repeated evidence.

There were more diplomatic was to do stuff like that, when you already know viewpoint and weaknesses of Miko.

Miko was being entirely unreasonable about the Inn. The Order was already going out of their way to make things easier for both of them, sleeping in the dirt when they had absolutely no reason to do so is quite simply going too far.

As for defending Belkar, he had an entirely valid point. The bugger was evil, but he was a member of the Order, and therefore Roy had to stick with him to a degree. Furthermore, even Miko's fellow Sapphire Guard members acknowledged that she was going too far by executing Belkar when he was incapacitated like that.

Both of those situations are Roy reacting to problems Miko caused.

[multilis]

Miko was being entirely unreasonable about the Inn. The Order was already going out of their way to make things easier for both of them, sleeping in the dirt when they had absolutely no reason to do so is quite simply going too far.

As for defending Belkar, he had an entirely valid point. The bugger was evil, but he was a member of the Order, and therefore Roy had to stick with him to a degree. Furthermore, even Miko's fellow Sapphire Guard members acknowledged that she was going too far by executing Belkar when he was incapacitated like that.

Both of those situations are Roy reacting to problems Miko caused.
There are diplomatic ways to handle situation and both sides acted unreasonable at times including hotel. IMO extremely biased to say Miko entirely started that one. She simply expressed her world view of save money to help orphans or you have gold to spend more than me (not realising how they would take it). Before she even started OOTS was provoking her, trying repeatedly to add expenses when she had little gold and they had bags of it.

She seemed more naive like Elan rather than intentially trying to be a meanie.

[Keltest]

There are diplomatic ways to handle situation and both sides acted unreasonable at times including hotel. IMO extremely biased to say Miko entirely started that one.

Diplomacy relies on both parties being willing to give way on something in order to reach a mutually beneficial conclusion. Roy was willing to give way on the Belkar issue (and in fact did so! he allowed Belkar to be arrested, and while he helped belkar get a good deal, he didn't try to avoid the fact that Belkar deserved to be punished.) Miko was absolutely not going to budge on any of the issued, due to her ideas that she is always correct.

[multilis]

Diplomacy relies on both parties being willing to give way on something in order to reach a mutually beneficial conclusion. Roy was willing to give way on the Belkar issue (and in fact did so! he allowed Belkar to be arrested, and while he helped belkar get a good deal, he didn't try to avoid the fact that Belkar deserved to be punished.) Miko was absolutely not going to budge on any of the issued, due to her ideas that she is always correct.
Durkon talked, she budged and thanked him. She wasn't that firm on hotel, or any other situation. Roy on hotel played greedy as possible as a joke. Middle ground is taking less expensive rooms or being willing to pay for own room (but let haley get free).

Of course Miko was not going to budge in case where she was given orders, part of her paladin code and duties.

Paladins don't lie, paladins don't break their oaths, they have trouble understanding those that do, trouble understanding people with bags of gold spending a fortune on hotel when orphans need food. If you as prisoner insisted on lots of rooms in good hotel on taxpayers money when you had bags of your own gold, likely majority of people would resent you in real life, not just a Miko. Impression left would be that guy is neutral a heading towards evil.

Even the Divas questioned Roy having Belkar as teammate, not surprising Miko would and there are diplomatic ways to reduce that rather than add to suspicions with angry outburst.

[Keltest]

Durkon talked, she budged and thanked him. She wasn't that firm on hotel, or any other situation. Roy on hotel played greedy as possible as a joke.

Of course Miko was not going to budge in case where she was given orders, part of her paladin code and duties.

Paladins don't lie, paladins don't break their oaths, they have trouble understanding those that do.

Roy was explicitly defending a bond that he had with Belkar that he lacked with Miko. In this case it was the bond of an adventuring party, but it is just as important to a lawful character as oaths.

As for the Hotel, she really had no choice to give in, but she absolutely did not have to rub it in Haley's face that if they had slept in the dirt her gold wouldn't have gotten blown up.

[multilis]

Roy was explicitly defending a bond that he had with Belkar that he lacked with Miko. In this case it was the bond of an adventuring party, but it is just as important to a lawful character as oaths.

As for the Hotel, she really had no choice to give in, but she absolutely did not have to rub it in Haley's face that if they had slept in the dirt her gold wouldn't have gotten blown up.
" she really had no choice to give in" I am only paying for 2 rooms, if you want more, pay for them yourself. You are prisoners. *THAT* would be not giving in.

" rub it in Haley's face that if they had slept in the dirt her gold wouldn't have gotten blown up." Miko world view, she is helping Haley be better person like Miko rather than "corruption and gluttony". The rich when prisoners "should not take taxpayer money away from social programs", Haley "karma got you, learn from it"

OOTS world view when booking that hotel was "how can we provoke Miko for fun?", is part of OOTS culture to provoke each other, eg Explosive Runes.

If you are extra harsh on Miko for her Naive view of world then how about Elan hitting self destruct button on dungeon?

If you are extra harsh on Miko for her not growing beyond her comfort zone as far as viewpoint and treating others, then how about Roy in how he treated her (and early on treated Elan)? Cuts both ways, if Roy and Elan might end up in lawful afterlife, I don't think we can exclude Miko for sure.

[Keltest]

" she really had no choice to give in" I am only paying for 2 rooms, if you want more, pay for them yourself. You are prisoners. *THAT* would be not giving in.

They aren't prisoners though. Theyre going with her to sort it out voluntarily because its in their own interests to do so. Until putting up with Miko doesn't become worth it anymore.


" rub it in Haley's face that if they had slept in the dirt her gold wouldn't have gotten blown up." Miko world view, she is helping Haley be better person like Miko.

And how is that anything other than Miko's fault?


OOTS world view when booking that hotel was how can we provoke Miko, is part of OOTS culture to provoke each other, eg Explosive Runes.

If you are extra harsh on Miko for her Naive view of world then how about Elan hitting self destruct button on dungeon?

If you are extra harsh on Miko for her not growing beyond her comfort zone as far as viewpoint and treating others, then how about Roy in how he treated her (and early on treated Elan)? Cuts both ways, if Roy and Elan might end up in lawful afterlife, I don't think we can exclude Miko for sure.

Im not arguing she isn't lawful, simply that blaming the Order for her falling is silly.

[multilis]

They aren't prisoners though. Theyre going with her to sort it out voluntarily because its in their own interests to do so. Until putting up with Miko doesn't become worth it anymore.



And how is that anything other than Miko's fault?



Im not arguing she isn't lawful, simply that blaming the Order for her falling is silly.
"not prisoners" - That was *why* they expected her to pay the hotel bill, they *are* prisoners living on taxpayer money that otherwise likely would have went to help orphans survive.

"how is that anything other than Miko's fault?" In real life you do same thing and you likely offend many people, both sides were silly. Both Miko and Roy and room to grow beyond their comfort zone to better help others.

[Keltest]

"not prisoners" - That was *why* they expected her to pay the hotel bill, they *are* prisoners living on taxpayer money that otherwise likely would have went to help orphans survive.

"how is that anything other than Miko's fault?" In real life you do same thing and you think you won't offend more than 50% of people? And that is only their fault that they are offended?
For your first part, they weren't prisoners, but Miko was paying their travel expenses because she was the one who said they had to go to Azure City. Her dropping the issue and letting them go would solve the problem for the Order just as well as going through the trial did, but she was not forcing them to travel south until they said "nope, we aren't doing this anymore."

And I don't even understand what your second point is. In real life, saying I told you so! to someone who just had their life shattered would probably land me with a broken jaw.

[Angelalex242]

Still, Roy was a lot friendlier before his trouser titan got removed from the picture. Still, Elan and Durkon's points regarding the likelihood of him getting any treasure type O (with a cutaway scene to her yelling at some guy for removing the tag from a mattress) didn't help her cause any.

...Why do I get the idea that if Roy did successfully get that treasure type O, she's the type who'd then demand marriage thereafter? He may have dodged a bullet there, for all that it might've helped Miko herself relax. She was JUST starting to open up to him after he'd apologized for mistreating her.

Considering how the Sapphire Guard treats her, Roy's apology may have been the first she'd ever gotten, from anyone. There might've been some dim hope that maybe her horse wouldn't be her only friend for the rest of her life.

...And before the chapter's even done, Roy crushes it, ruthlessly. "I wouldn't touch your skinny uptight ass with a standard issue 10 foot pole, you overbearing self righteous bitch!"

[warrl]

She walks to them and informs the group they are on trial for crimes that if found guilty is punishable by death. She then hears their leader say they will not go down without a fight.

This bit is incorrect. She did NOT hear their leader say they would not go down without a fight.

She heard their leader say they would not "surrender without a little"

And then - interrupting that sentence - she attacked them. Without ever bothering to tell them by whose authority she was trying to arrest them, or offering any clue what the charges are. Or to give them any reason whatsoever to think she was anything other than a random brigand.

In fact she explicitly refused to do any of that until she thought she had won the fight and was attempting to execute Roy. Not arrest, execute. After (she thought) he was defeated, when she was under orders to bring him back alive.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html

Does her code, or her law, allow her to gratuitously violate orders and kill defeated human enemies?

To attack people who just ask for explanations?

I think she wasn't particularly Lawful, and wasn't particularly Good, and wasn't particularly following her Code.

And by all available evidence her behavior in that instance was her normal behavior on these missions.

However, when her Smite Evil didn't kill Roy, she at that point was willing to consider the possibility that she might be mistaken. A willingness she later abandoned even when the Twelve Gods emphatically disagreed with her.

[multilis]

This bit is incorrect. She did NOT hear their leader say they would not go down without a fight.

She heard their leader say they would not "surrender without a little"

And then - interrupting that sentence - she attacked them. Without ever bothering to tell them by whose authority she was trying to arrest them, or offering any clue what the charges are. Or to give them any reason whatsoever to think she was anything other than a random brigand.

In fact she explicitly refused to do any of that until she thought she had won the fight and was attempting to execute Roy. Not arrest, execute. After (she thought) he was defeated, when she was under orders to bring him back alive.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html

Does her code, or her law, allow her to gratuitously violate orders and kill defeated human enemies?

To attack people who just ask for explanations?

I think she wasn't particularly Lawful, and wasn't particularly Good, and wasn't particularly following her Code.

And by all available evidence her behavior in that instance was her normal behavior on these missions.

However, when her Smite Evil didn't kill Roy, she at that point was willing to consider the possibility that she might be mistaken. A willingness she later abandoned even when the Twelve Gods emphatically disagreed with her.
"Surrender yourselves", "We are not surrendering..." misunderstanding. Her impression is these guys had committed "crimes against humanity" and her bias was they likely were "shoot first and ask questions later". Same thing happens in real life in similar situation with ordinary cops at times.

Roy and OOTS tended to do much more extreme on very regular basis, eg #0011 and first side quest with Miko. Roy is supposedly Lawful Good.

Haley very quickly slaughters a bunch of "police"/guards (without remorse), sent to arrest her by Elan's father. Judging by Haley's actions later, Miko may have died if she didn't strike quickly.

Paladins as a group wiped out Redcloak's village including women and children goblins for reasons not that different than Miko trying to arrest OOTS.

My argument is that Miko did not act that differently than Roy and Elan. Roy lacked diplomacy like Miko at times, Elan acted naive in destroying a dungeon and probably killing many including non evil guys. Elan hasn't shown remorse yet for that any more than Miko.

Miko did not say "I am still right" after she lost per paladin status. She struggled in own way to deal with it. Losing her status did not prove OOTS wasn't plotting evil, just that she acted too rashly. If Soon said "you must do X to attone", and Miko somehow survived being cut in half, Miko was probably the sort to try and do X. (Miko wanted to do the right thing, didn't always figure out what right thing was [like Elan], if someone she trusted told her, she would try to follow. Elan has power of plot advantage where when he is stupid/wrong that often still helped.)

[Angelalex242]

That, actually, is what Hinjo should've done with her.

"Cleric, I want you to cast divination to find the best atonement quest for Miko. Then, I want you to cast Quest on her to complete it. We can't have somebody that powerful in prison with a war on the way."

Cleric:Ok.

And then she might've been out of the country when the enemy attacked, and never broken Soon's gate at all.

[FujinAkari]

They aren't prisoners though. Theyre going with her to sort it out voluntarily because its in their own interests to do so. Until putting up with Miko doesn't become worth it anymore.

Sigh. They directly refer to themselves as prisoners. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0225.html)

This is why I hate discussing Miko. People have such an anti-Miko bias, they will go so far as to ignore the direct text of the comic if it will make Miko look worse.

[Keltest]

Sigh. They directly refer to themselves as prisoners. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0225.html)

This is why I hate discussing Miko. People have such an anti-Miko bias, they will go so far as to ignore the direct text of the comic if it will make Miko look worse.
Realistically, at the time, there was little Miko could have done to stop the order had they just all run away in different directions or something silly like that. Haley was making exactly my point, in that Miko was the one who wanted them to go south, so she was the one who had to make it happen.

[Angelalex242]

Well, they could've split up in episode 251 as well, when trying to avoid Miko's capture. They didn't do so then, either. I get the idea the Order, even when faced with TPK odds, does NOT split up, ever. Which is the ancient D&D rule of never split the party. They'd rather all fall to Miko then be split up.

[Keltest]

Well, they could've split up in episode 251 as well, when trying to avoid Miko's capture. They didn't do so then, either. I get the idea the Order, even when faced with TPK odds, does NOT split up, ever. Which is the ancient D&D rule of never split the party. They'd rather all fall to Miko then be split up.

Alternatively, its a stupid railroad plot.

[Angelalex242]

Well, that's what Roy thought at least. It's surprising, however, that even if Miko was level 16 (2 monk, 14 Paladin) that she was able to take down the entire party minus Durkon. Even if she had maxed out stats, it's hard to beat 5 people on action economy alone.

[Keltest]

Well, that's what Roy thought at least. It's surprising, however, that even if Miko was level 16 (2 monk, 14 Paladin) that she was able to take down the entire party minus Durkon. Even if she had maxed out stats, it's hard to beat 5 people on action economy alone.

I think youre missing the point of lampshade hanging. Plus, admit it. If youre a DM, and you want the party to lose a fight, youre going to cheat if you cant do it fairly.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Well, that's what Roy thought at least. It's surprising, however, that even if Miko was level 16 (2 monk, 14 Paladin) that she was able to take down the entire party minus Durkon. Even if she had maxed out stats, it's hard to beat 5 people on action economy alone.

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?6495-Order-of-the-Stick-November-II/page17&p=291639#post291639) is what happened in that fight.

[Angelalex242]

I've seen that. Apparently, Miko rolled no less then 16 on any of her rolls, and the party for the most part didn't roll better then 5.

[Rougn]

That, actually, is what Hinjo should've done with her.

"Cleric, I want you to cast divination to find the best atonement quest for Miko. Then, I want you to cast Quest on her to complete it. We can't have somebody that powerful in prison with a war on the way."

Cleric:Ok.

And then she might've been out of the country when the enemy attacked, and never broken Soon's gate at all.

I do not know if she would have gone for that. She might have felt that she was cheating the court system that has already been cheated a few times.

[Angelalex242]

At that point in her life, she had 0 faith in the courts, and last said, before she fell, that 'nothing but honor and the 12 gods matters now.'

Thus, Divination+Quest is the only reasonable thing to do with her...had she lived to stand trial, at least. As for accepting the Quest, "It's the only way you'll ever see Windstriker again." Should be enough to convince her to accept the Quest.

[Keltest]

At that point in her life, she had 0 faith in the courts, and last said, before she fell, that 'nothing but honor and the 12 gods matters now.'

Thus, Divination+Quest is the only reasonable thing to do with her...had she lived to stand trial, at least. As for accepting the Quest, "It's the only way you'll ever see Windstriker again." Should be enough to convince her to accept the Quest.

Well, its not like she could stop them from casting the darn spell on her. It would be very un-paladin like, but the spell gets no saving throw, and Miko is a human who very probably has no obscure backstory houseruled abilities to resist magic.

[Rougn]

At that point in her life, she had 0 faith in the courts, and last said, before she fell, that 'nothing but honor and the 12 gods matters now.'

Thus, Divination+Quest is the only reasonable thing to do with her...had she lived to stand trial, at least. As for accepting the Quest, "It's the only way you'll ever see Windstriker again." Should be enough to convince her to accept the Quest.

Yes she had no faith in the court system at the moment but that does not mean she wants to abuse the corrupted system. She is still lawful good or sees herself as such at that time. A lawful good person would not and I repeat not cheat a system especially knowing that blood is on their hands it would go against her honor which is all she has left.

[Angelalex242]

Not in this case.

Divination+Quest is how a Paladin gets her powers back. Because when the Quest is done, it is finished with Atonement, which is what actually proves that her sentence is completed. Once she's blue again, she is officially reinstated in the guard with all rights and privileges thereof.

That's how it works for Fallen Paladins. You get your redemption quest, complete it, atone, and you're good.

Hinjo can even make it her call:

As a member of the Guard, you have two options. You can take the punishment I'd give non guard members. which, since you committed High Treason, is fairly obvious...or, we can cast divination and quest, and send you on your way to atonement. When you finish the quest, we'll have you atone, and you shall be absolved of your crime. Your choice.

[Keltest]

Not in this case.

Divination+Quest is how a Paladin gets her powers back. Because when the Quest is done, it is finished with Atonement, which is what actually proves that her sentence is completed. Once she's blue again, she is officially reinstated in the guard with all rights and privileges thereof.

That's how it works for Fallen Paladins. You get your redemption quest, complete it, atone, and you're good.

Hinjo can even make it her call:

As a member of the Guard, you have two options. You can take the punishment I'd give non guard members. which, since you committed High Treason, is fairly obvious...or, we can cast divination and quest, and send you on your way to atonement. When you finish the quest, we'll have you atone, and you shall be absolved of your crime. Your choice.

mechanically speaking the quest (lower case Q) is unnecessary but recommended, because the cleric is taking basically going out on a limb for them, so they need to know that the Paladin really does intend to do better this time. the Quest (big Q, the spell) is a potentially brutal way to make sure that the quest gets done.

[Angelalex242]

Considering we're talking about Miko, and the fact High Treason was involved, I wouldn't let her out of that cell with anything other then a Divination spell (To make sure the Quest really will help her atone) and a capital Q Quest (because, ya know, there WAS high treason involved. Gotta put some sort of leash on her.)

[Rougn]

Not in this case.

Divination+Quest is how a Paladin gets her powers back. Because when the Quest is done, it is finished with Atonement, which is what actually proves that her sentence is completed. Once she's blue again, she is officially reinstated in the guard with all rights and privileges thereof.

That's how it works for Fallen Paladins. You get your redemption quest, complete it, atone, and you're good.

Hinjo can even make it her call:

As a member of the Guard, you have two options. You can take the punishment I'd give non guard members. which, since you committed High Treason, is fairly obvious...or, we can cast divination and quest, and send you on your way to atonement. When you finish the quest, we'll have you atone, and you shall be absolved of your crime. Your choice.

Divination+Quest is the lazy way of doing it for players. And while this does get her up and going to get her paladin levels back technically it does not settle the roleplaying side. She is settled with the Gods this way easy enough however her actions where still against the law; the law she has been upholding and has (most likely) killed people for break. How can a person justify forcing people to obey the law then just get 2 spells casted on them for breaking the same laws and be ok?

[Keltest]

Divination+Quest is the lazy way of doing it for players. And while this does get her up and going to get her paladin levels back technically it does not settle the roleplaying side. She is settled with the Gods this way easy enough however her actions where still against the law; the law she has been upholding and has (most likely) killed people for break. How can a person justify forcing people to obey the law then just get 2 spells casted on them for breaking the same laws and be ok?

Well its not like its just a matter of 'Ok, go pet this puppy in this town and youre a paladin again."

Redemption quests, especially divinely inspired ones, are serious business.

and quite frankly, I don't think one enforced by a Quest spell counts unless the fallen paladin specifically requests it.

[Rougn]

Well its not like its just a matter of 'Ok, go pet this puppy in this town and youre a paladin again."

Redemption quests, especially divinely inspired ones, are serious business.

Yes they are; and redemption is for yourself and your god not for your country and countrymen. She committed a truly bad act and she was awaiting trial for her actions. After she pay for her crime she may then look for redemption in her own eyes and the eyes of her Gods. Redemption does not substitute for a trial and sentence in the court of law.

[Angelalex242]

Eh. If the 12 Gods grant the Quest spell to the cleric in the first case, I'm pretty sure they'd be okay with using it for a redemption quest. If it defeated the point, the Divination spell would say so.

That is, I presume the Gods don't tell their clerics lies about what'll work and what won't. Whatever orders the cleric gets from Divination are guaranteed to work. So he simply follows them, like a good cleric should.

And in this case, Miko can be 'sentenced' (By the Quest spell) to go redeem herself.

(consider, with High Treason...pretty much anyone else would be sentenced to death, and probably death by Seppuku at that, with the samurai fluff going on.)

[Keltest]

Yes they are; and redemption is for yourself and your god not for your country and countrymen. She committed a truly bad act and she was awaiting trial for her actions. After she pay for her crime she may then look for redemption in her own eyes and the eyes of her Gods. Redemption does not substitute for a trial and sentence in the court of law.

It may very well might for Azure City. There are plenty of cultures, in real life and D&D campaigns, that are ruled by divine law.


Eh. If the 12 Gods grant the Quest spell to the cleric in the first case, I'm pretty sure they'd be okay with using it for a redemption quest. If it defeated the point, the Divination spell would say so.

That is, I presume the Gods don't tell their clerics lies about what'll work and what won't. Whatever orders the cleric gets from Divination are guaranteed to work. So he simply follows them, like a good cleric should.

And in this case, Miko can be 'sentenced' (By the Quest spell) to go redeem herself.

That's exactly why I don't think it counts. A Quested paladin isn't seeking redemption on their own, theyre being forced to do an act whether or not they want to. If you need to be magically compelled to finish the quest, then you haven't really redeemed yourself.

[Rougn]

It may very well might for Azure City. There are plenty of cultures, in real life and D&D campaigns, that are ruled by divine law.



That's exactly why I don't think it counts. A Quested paladin isn't seeking redemption on their own, theyre being forced to do an act whether or not they want to. If you need to be magically compelled to finish the quest, then you haven't really redeemed yourself.

And that would be discussed in her court hearing when they summon the divine angel to sentence. It would simply be "I sentence you to get redemption". its clear the king does not actually sentence anyone he just listens and lets a divine being rule thats why he needed Roy's dad to pretend to be the divine judge (at least for high crimes which i am sure treason counts as). However at the moment her crime wasnt even a day old yet. She has not had time to prove wither or not she is guilty by Azure law. She is guilty by paladin law and has been punished.

To me two court systems rule on her one she picked (paladin) and one she was born into (azure). One judged and sentenced but she was still waiting on the second one. Once both have decided then it is time to discuss how to regain her benefits from her class. Remember even though she is a paladin she is also a citizen and they are not above the court systems even if the 2nd court system just says what the first one said it still needs to be held.

[Keltest]

And that would be discussed in her court hearing when they summon the divine angel to sentence. It would simply be "I sentence you to get redemption". its clear the king does not actually sentence anyone he just listens and lets a divine being rule thats why he needed Roy's dad to pretend to be the divine judge (at least for high crimes which i am sure treason counts as). However at the moment her crime wasnt even a day old yet. She has not had time to prove wither or not she is guilty by Azure law. She is guilty by paladin law and has been punished.

To me two court systems rule on her one she picked (paladin) and one she was born into (azure). One judged and sentenced but she was still waiting on the second one. Once both have decided then it is time to discuss how to regain her benefits from her class. Remember even though she is a paladin she is also a citizen and they are not above the court systems even if the 2nd court system just says what the first one said it still needs to be held.

By all appearances, they are one and the same. Roy was tried by Azure City under the authority of the 12 Gods.

[Rougn]

They do appear similar but they are not the same. The Paladin Court (which determines if they retain their powers or if they fall) has no jurisdiction on Roy because Roy is getting no rewards from them for being honorable therefore how can they be punish him? Miko however was getting rewards and she broke her lawful good rules and thus loss her powers by there court laws. However the civilian law could easily say she was TECHNICALLY in the right and it was an act of lawful neutral. She is free to go by their laws. She was found guilty in one but innocent in the other.

[Keltest]

They do appear similar but they are not the same. The Paladin Court (which determines if they retain their powers or if they fall) has no jurisdiction on Roy because Roy is getting no rewards from them for being honorable therefore how can they be punish him? Miko however was getting rewards and she broke her lawful good rules and thus loss her powers by there court laws. However the civilian law could easily say she was TECHNICALLY in the right and it was an act of lawful neutral. She is free to go by their laws. She was found guilty in one but innocent in the other.

well, by that argument, then Shojo had no authority to drag Roy down to Azure City in any capacity. He violated no Azure City law for what he was tried for, and even if he had he wasn't in the city's area of authority.

[Rougn]

well, by that argument, then Shojo had no authority to drag Roy down to Azure City in any capacity. He violated no Azure City law for what he was tried for, and even if he had he wasn't in the city's area of authority.

Technically it could be argued he didnt. However he still needed a way to talk to roy for the greater good and this was the only way.

[Keltest]

Technically it could be argued he didnt. However he still needed a way to talk to roy for the greater good and this was the only way.
Id like to see that argument. If he cant do it as a member of the Sapphire Guard, then he has no authority outside of Azure City and its territories.

[Rougn]

Id like to see that argument. If he cant do it as a member of the Sapphire Guard, then he has no authority outside of Azure City and its territories.

Right; i think the argue made for this is the fact by destroying the gates he endangered Azure City and thus made it a problem for his city.

[Keltest]

Right; i think the argue made for this is the fact by destroying the gates he endangered Azure City and thus made it a problem for his city.

Not true. Destroying one gate did nothing. If ALL the gates are destroyed, bad things happen. The mountain gate going boom doesn't affect Azure city at all, except to make it a convenient next target for Xykon.

[Rougn]

Not true. Destroying one gate did nothing. If ALL the gates are destroyed, bad things happen. The mountain gate going boom doesn't affect Azure city at all, except to make it a convenient next target for Xykon.

The gates where being destroyed (remember 2 where destroyed at this time) by destroying the gates it does endanger the world either they where trying to release the snarl or they do not know what they are doing. Destroying a gate endangers the world. Destroying all the gates destroys the world.

[Keltest]

The gates where being destroyed (remember 2 where destroyed at this time) by destroying the gates it does endanger the world either they where trying to release the snarl or they do not know what they are doing. Destroying a gate endangers the world. Destroying all the gates destroys the world.

Even if that's the case, Azure City is not in that part of the world, and it is outside of any territory they control. Azure City has no authority up there, even if the events there may affect them some day. Tarquin's Empire scam might affect them some day too, that doesn't mean that they can arrest Tarquin.

[Angelalex242]

Back to topic...

The point of the Quest spell is that you can't released somebody who should be sentenced to death for high treason with NO magical compulsions whatever. That would be beyond stupid. That's the problem, by the way, with Hinjo waiting for Azure city law to kick in. The punishment for killing Shojo couldn't possibly be anything other then DEATH, considering their pseudo samurai culture. Thus, if that punishment is carried out, redeeming herself is no more possible then it was when the Throne chopped her in half in the actual comic.

No, the Quest spell is there to function as a more proactive Mark of Judgment, like that put on Belkar. Because it defies common sense to let somebody who should by rights be executed for her crimes out of jail without a magical compulsion.

It's the fact it was High Treason that necessitates the Quest spell. By contrast, for example, I wouldn't put the Paladins who killed Redcloak's family and the women and children of the goblins under a Quest spell, because they didn't actually violate Azure City Law. They simply got too bloodthirsty and the gods didn't like it. They could get by with just a divination spell and complete the quest given under their own power.

[Rougn]

Back to topic...

The point of the Quest spell is that you can't released somebody who should be sentenced to death for high treason with NO magical compulsions whatever. That would be beyond stupid. That's the problem, by the way, with Hinjo waiting for Azure city law to kick in. The punishment for killing Shojo couldn't possibly be anything other then DEATH, considering their pseudo samurai culture. Thus, if that punishment is carried out, redeeming herself is no more possible then it was when the Throne chopped her in half in the actual comic.

No, the Quest spell is there to function as a more proactive Mark of Judgment, like that put on Belkar. Because it defies common sense to let somebody who should by rights be executed for her crimes out of jail without a magical compulsion.

It's the fact it was High Treason that necessitates the Quest spell. By contrast, for example, I wouldn't put the Paladins who killed Redcloak's family and the women and children of the goblins under a Quest spell, because they didn't actually violate Azure City Law. They simply got too bloodthirsty and the gods didn't like it. They could get by with just a divination spell and complete the quest given under their own power.

Correct me if I am wrong but isnt Quest only a 24 hour spell? Also the Mark Belkar got was already frowned upon

[Keltest]

Correct me if I am wrong but isnt Quest only a 24 hour spell? Also the Mark Belkar got was already frowned upon

Quest lasts forever (or rather, til the end of the quest) unless the victim is unable to actually perform the quest, in which case it lasts a number of days equal to the caster level.

[Angelalex242]

One of the reasons to cast Divination first is to make sure the Quest isn't impossible to complete, so it has the desired effect on Miko, redemption wise and 'can't get out of it' wise.

Indeed, if I were Rich and wanted to keep her in the story, the aforementioned quest might be 'kill Redcloak' or 'destroy Xykon's phylactery'. That doesn't FORCE her to work with the Order of the Stick...but it'd be almost absurd of her not to do so (and beg their forgiveness, among other things.)

[Keltest]

One of the reasons to cast Divination first is to make sure the Quest isn't impossible to complete, so it has the desired effect on Miko, redemption wise and 'can't get out of it' wise.

Indeed, if I were Rich and wanted to keep her in the story, the aforementioned quest might be 'kill Redcloak' or 'destroy Xykon's phylactery'. That doesn't FORCE her to work with the Order of the Stick...but it'd be almost absurd of her not to do so (and beg their forgiveness, among other things.)

I think youre still missing the point of the quest. It isn't a punishment, its designed to prove your sincerity. If you force a Quest spell on someone, it proves nothing except that it wasn't physically impossible for them to do that quest.

[Rougn]

Quest lasts forever (or rather, til the end of the quest) unless the victim is unable to actually perform the quest, in which case it lasts a number of days equal to the caster level.

Geas/quests says one day per level or until discharged though

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I also don't think that casting Quest is enough. Looking at Soon's statements in 464, it looks like Miko needs more than a quest to receive redemption, and that just casting Redemption isn't enough. After all, if all Paladins were redeemed in that way, then Redemption wouldn't be such "a rare and special thing".

[Keltest]

Geas/quests says one day per level or until discharged though

The actual description says that it lasts until the quest is fulfilled if doing so is physically possible for the Quest-ee.

[Angelalex242]

Lord Soon just said she had to admit she was wrong. She had to actually say, "I was wrong, please forgive me, I'm not the 12 gods' gift to the universe." In short, she needs humility.

The point of the capital Q Quest is to send her on some task that requires such humility to complete. Like either of the two quests I just mentioned, which practically force her to apologize and admit she was wrong with the Order.

[Keltest]

Lord Soon just said she had to admit she was wrong. She had to actually say, "I was wrong, please forgive me, I'm not the 12 gods' gift to the universe." In short, she needs humility.

The point of the capital Q Quest is to send her on some task that requires such humility to complete. Like either of the two quests I just mentioned, which practically force her to apologize and admit she was wrong with the Order.

No, the point of the capital Q quest is to force someone to complete a task if possible. I wont begin to touch the morality of it, but for a cleric's purpose a fallen paladin who only completed the task because they had no choice is not worthy of redemption any more than a fallen paladin who wouldn't have completed the quest.

You have to understand, people can be assigned missions without magical compulsion to finish it. If they want to make sure she doesn't go on a rampage, put a Mark of Justice on her so that she cant kill people who didn't attack her first or something like that.

[Angelalex242]

Then what in the name of the 12 gods is the quest spell even THERE for? I thought the whole thing was designed for atonement quests, so that repentant sinners go on their merry way back to the grace of the 12 gods.

Putting a Mark of Justice on her instead feels too 'Belkar'ish for her. She's supposed to be a Paladin, the Quest spell seems more thematic.

Though this may be an issue of 'what you'd do in your campaign' vs. 'what I'd do in my campaign' vs. 'we'll never know what Rich would've done because he chose to execute her instead.'

[Keltest]

Then what in the name of the 12 gods is the quest spell even THERE for? I thought the whole thing was designed for atonement quests, so that repentant sinners go on their merry way back to the grace of the 12 gods.

Putting a Mark of Justice on her instead feels too 'Belkar'ish for her. She's supposed to be a Paladin, the Quest spell seems more thematic.

Though this may be an issue of 'what you'd do in your campaign' vs. 'what I'd do in my campaign' vs. 'we'll never know what Rich would've done because he chose to execute her instead.'

Good clerics are not the only ones with access to the Quest spell, so there are all sorts of uses for the evil side of the alignment chart. It could be used for ensuring that a mission where its more important to complete it than by who its completed is successful. It could be used as a punishment (ie force a Thief to recover something else that was stolen).

The whole point of the Quest spell is to ensure a task gets done if possible. I feel that is intrinsically counter to the idea of a paladin doing a quest for its own sake as part of their redemption. You may not, but I hope you can at least acknowledge that if you need to use the Quest spell to get the task done, they don't deserve redemption.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Lord Soon just said she had to admit she was wrong. She had to actually say, "I was wrong, please forgive me, I'm not the 12 gods' gift to the universe." In short, she needs humility.

The point of the capital Q Quest is to send her on some task that requires such humility to complete. Like either of the two quests I just mentioned, which practically force her to apologize and admit she was wrong with the Order.

Forcing her to apologize doesn't seem like a good way to get her to realize her mistake. She mist actually understand why what she did was wrong before she can atone for it. Simply saying "I was wrong" isn't enough.

[Angelalex242]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/atonement.htm

That's where I got the idea.

Many casters first assign a subject of this sort a quest (see geas/quest) or similar penance to determine whether the creature is truly contrite before casting the atonement spell on its behalf.

It's in the RAW you're supposed to use Quest for expressly that purpose.

[Rougn]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/atonement.htm

That's where I got the idea.

Many casters first assign a subject of this sort a quest (see geas/quest) or similar penance to determine whether the creature is truly contrite before casting the atonement spell on its behalf.

It's in the RAW you're supposed to use Quest for expressly that purpose.

"The creature seeking atonement must be truly repentant and desirous of setting right its misdeeds." Last seen she was blaming the OOTS for causing her to do it. While I think at the end she is repentant leading up to her death i do not see her as being truly repentant just angry.

[Angelalex242]

Well, Divination+Quest isn't meant for a scenario where she dies within 24 hours of falling, clearly. It's meant for a 'Miko doesn't die' scenario.

[Keltest]

Well, Divination+Quest isn't meant for a scenario where she dies within 24 hours of falling, clearly. It's meant for a 'Miko doesn't die' scenario.

The use of those spells in no way ensures either Miko's penance nor survival.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Well, Divination+Quest isn't meant for a scenario where she dies within 24 hours of falling, clearly. It's meant for a 'Miko doesn't die' scenario.

I'm not sure Miko would be atoned even in that case. She has to be truly willing to admit she was wrong and want to repent, and I'm not sure she would do either, whether she died or not.

[Angelalex242]

Let's give the 12 gods some credit for intelligence.

If the cleric casts divination to figure out what quest will lead her to atonement, he can at least be sure the result will be something that will have her regain paladin status upon its completion. After all, it literally becomes the judgment of the 12 gods themselves on what they want done at that point.

The Quest spell is also at their discretion. If the 12 Gods say the Quest spell would defeat the purpose, then the cleric wouldn't cast it. If the 12 Gods are reading RAW for the Atonement spell and note that a Quest spell is the usual precursor for atonement by RAW, then they will authorize the Quest spell being used on Miko.

In short, both the quest being given and whether or not Quest should be used is at the discretion of the 12 Gods themselves. Or, more accurately, the DM, which is Rich Burlew himself.

So...yeeeah. It's not really any of our calls what the quest should've or would've been had she had time to go on one. All we can say for sure is that Divination WILL give the cleric a correct answer on what Miko must do to atone.

[Keltest]

Let's give the 12 gods some credit for intelligence.

If the cleric casts divination to figure out what quest will lead her to atonement, he can at least be sure the result will be something that will have her regain paladin status upon its completion. After all, it literally becomes the judgment of the 12 gods themselves on what they want done at that point.

The Quest spell is also at their discretion. If the 12 Gods say the Quest spell would defeat the purpose, then the cleric wouldn't cast it. If the 12 Gods are reading RAW for the Atonement spell and note that a Quest spell is the usual precursor for atonement by RAW, then they will authorize the Quest spell being used on Miko.

In short, both the quest being given and whether or not Quest should be used is at the discretion of the 12 Gods themselves. Or, more accurately, the DM, which is Rich Burlew himself.

So...yeeeah. It's not really any of our calls what the quest should've or would've been had she had time to go on one. All we can say for sure is that Divination WILL give the cleric a correct answer on what Miko must do to atone.

I think youre misunderstanding the extent of what a divination spell does. You aren't going to get something as forthright as "Go save this orphanage, then hunt down and capture the guy who set it on fire."

Youll either get something short and simple like "Think of a quest that will help her be humble." or something cryptic and open to interpretation.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I think youre misunderstanding the extent of what a divination spell does. You aren't going to get something as forthright as "Go save this orphanage, then hunt down and capture the guy who set it on fire."

Youll either get something short and simple like "Think of a quest that will help her be humble." or something cryptic and open to interpretation.

As a citation for this, here is what Divination does, according to the PHB.

Similar to augury but more powerful, a divination spell can provide you with a useful piece of advice in reply to a question concerning a specific goal, event, or activity that is to occur within one week. The advice can be as simple as a short phrase, or it might take the form of a cryptic rhyme or omen.
Also, keep in mind that at best the Divination has a 10% chance of giving an incorrect answer.

[rlc]

Technically it could be argued he didnt. However he still needed a way to talk to roy for the greater good and this was the only way.

Anything can be argued. It just might not be a very good argument.

[Angelalex242]

Possibility of wrong answers aside, Divination is still a pretty good tool to cast before sending a Paladin on an atonement quest. I'd think it'd be standard procedure, really. It's less arrogant then the cleric assuming he knows what's best, at the very least.

Still, Divination+the cleric's maxed out ranks in Knowledge: Religion should be enough in almost all cases to give a Paladin a proper atonement quest.

(And for things like a Paladin's Atonement, even if the Divination is wrong, performing the quest given in good faith ought to restore your powers anyway.)

[Keltest]

Possibility of wrong answers aside, Divination is still a pretty good tool to cast before sending a Paladin on an atonement quest. I'd think it'd be standard procedure, really. It's less arrogant then the cleric assuming he knows what's best, at the very least.

Still, Divination+the cleric's maxed out ranks in Knowledge: Religion should be enough in almost all cases to give a Paladin a proper atonement quest.

(And for things like a Paladin's Atonement, even if the Divination is wrong, performing the quest given in good faith ought to restore your powers anyway.)

I don't know what Knowledge (Religion) has to do with it. A high wis score would matter more.

[Angelalex242]

Well, if it's a skill check....

Knowledge Religion is about knowing what the gods probably want.

I think you're trying to argue Sense Motive instead.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Well, if it's a skill check....

Knowledge Religion is about knowing what the gods probably want.

I think you're trying to argue Sense Motive instead.

I think Knowledge (Religion) is more about knowing who the gods are and what they represent than what they want. Trying to use Sense Motive (or just a Wisdom check) would make more sense to me.

[Angelalex242]

Arguable, I suppose.

Not all clerics will have sense motive maxed out, but it is certain (almost, poor Durkon) all of them will have knowledge religion maxed out.

[Keltest]

Arguable, I suppose.

Not all clerics will have sense motive maxed out, but it is certain (almost, poor Durkon) all of them will have knowledge religion maxed out.

A Knowledge skill represents just that: knowledge. You either know something or you don't. In this case you aren't likely to have picked up the information for any given paladin's redemption quest while learning at the temple.

[Angelalex242]

And do you really think a lawful religion might not have a procedure for atonement quests somewhere in the manual?

"We'd prefer our Paladins and Clerics didn't screw up at all, but history has shown us it happens often enough that we have standardized procedures for what to do when we do mess up. First, you need to..."

[Keltest]

And do you really think a lawful religion might not have a procedure for atonement quests somewhere in the manual?

"We'd prefer our Paladins and Clerics didn't screw up at all, but history has shown us it happens often enough that we have standardized procedures for what to do when we do mess up. First, you need to..."

Yes, I do think that. Besides true redemption being a rare thing, everybody's case is different. There are a wide variety of reasons and flaws that can cause a paladin to Fall, and creating a "manual" listing which quests to apply to them is realistically impossible.

[Koo Rehtorb]

Not to mention how it would cheapen everything substantially.