OOTS #952 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[hamishspence]

Looks like the "Thor's responsible" predictions were right after all.

[Kenage]

New comic is up.

Dun dun dun...

So, how will he talk his way out of this one? Also, how much does Thor know, or is it just a random storm because he's Thor on a bender again?

[mifdog]

I'm liking the whole HPoH dynamic a lot more then I thought I would. I hope that it goes for a while longer.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Gee, it's almost like the gods were trying to tell them something!

Can't wait to see how/if they're gonna get out of this one. You know, there's an easy way to get rid of him right now: chuck him in the ocean for three rounds.

[Neoriceisgood]

Well that's not gonna be an easy one to talk himself out of.

[Bulhakov]

Thor actually being competent? I don't believe it :)

[A.A.King]

I love the last two panels. Wonder how it's gonna get out of this xD

[Sethala]

Nice, I wake up and decide to check the site, and there's a new comic.

Admittedly, I was thinking it would take a bit longer for anyone to get suspicious of Durkon. Can't wait to see how much they can figure out, though...

[RogueNull]

Ooo, interesting.

The storm doesn't precisely reveal that Durkula's possessed and not actually under Durkon's soul's control, BUT anybody with some intelligence (i.e. Roy, anyone but Elan) can at least surmise from the storm that Thor is displeased with the abomination-of-life that stands before them. That's a pretty reasonable interpretation.

They may then have to make a tough choice - let Durkula continue un-living (and keep suffering bad weather) or improve their weather conditions by staking Durkula (presuming that's all that's needed to appease Thor, which seems reasonable).

[Cuthalion]

Still don't think Durk's going down yet. He'll probably try to talk his way out of it.

[Keltest]

Im honestly a little surprised that the HPoH didn't prepare for this eventuality. Granted, its been all of 3 days since it took over, but still. It seems like Hel and it have a plot already worked out.

[Shale]

Hah! I initially thought this was the High Priest's gambit to land the ship in dwarven lands, but if Thor's getting involved on his own this should be very interesting.

And that's quite a nice gloat Durkon's got there.

[AdmiralCheez]

Well, it's about time Thor figured out what's happened. Looks like he's not happy.

[Nettlekid]

Is the crew eyeing Durkon because they think he's causing the storm, or wondering why he isn't stopping it?

[L0rv-]

Is it just me, or does that ship mechanic look like Kaylee Frye?

This fact made me far more excited than I should be right now.

[notjoshing]

Even if Roy et al. are convinced Durkula is no longer the dwarf with the brogue we know and love, that doesn't mean they are in a position to do anything about it. Until and unless they can bring Durkon back, I wouldn't expect Roy to do anything directly.

[LuckoftheKevin]

Kind of hoping durkula gets zapped. Enough to the point that the party notices that he and Thor aren't on good terms at the moment

[Martichoras]

I'm betting the HPoH/Durkula will be able to fast-talk itself out of this one. I worry for Durkon, but enjoy the plotline centred on him...

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

Is the crew eyeing Durkon because they think he's causing the storm, or wondering why he isn't stopping it?

Durkon is a high-level priest of Thor. They're probably expecting him to control weather it away or something, or just provide an explanation for the storm.

[Ezekiel]

Oh Thor, how we missed you! Unless of course he's just blindfolded and tanked again...

[Lord Raziere]

oh no, I don't think Durkula's down and out yet. he just is in a bit of a sticky situation. I think they will assume that he just needs to do some atonement or something and he will say "ok, I'll do that" then pray to Hel to somehow stifle or work around Thor.....

[DaggerPen]

YES.

HPOH has some explaining to do...

[Kaulguard]

I don't think Durkula is in too much trouble here, though it would be great if he were. The Order will probably intuit that Thor is not happy at the transformation of his priest, but it would be a bit of a leap to equate that with 'Outsider posing as our friend'. Moving right along though, thanks Giant!

[ORione]

Looks like the "Thor's responsible" predictions were right after all.

Thor may have caused the storm, but I wouldn't call him responsible.

Well, maybe in this particular instance, but not in general.

[Keltest]

Durkon is a high-level priest of Thor. They're probably expecting him to control weather it away or something, or just provide an explanation for the storm.

At the very least, theyre probably wondering why he wasn't asking Thor to please stop shooting them with lightning on their world-saving quest.

[Lexible]

The wind is blowing the rain to the left, but the hair, clothes and Adad's holy symbol to the right.

Neat trick, that.

Edit: This art discrepancy is in panels 1, 5 and 8, but not in panels 3 or 6, where the direction of clothing/hair/etc. being blown by the wind matches the direction that the rain is being blown by the wind.

[Inevitability]

{{scrubbed}}

[XicoFelipe]

Well, that cat is out of the bag.

[Metahuman1]

I really hope Durkula is a short lived minor villain after all. I really, really do. Cause that sub-plot is gonna drive me crazy if it's not a short one.

[Nettlekid]

Durkon is a high-level priest of Thor. They're probably expecting him to control weather it away or something, or just provide an explanation for the storm.

And so why doesn't he do that? Despite being HPoH now, he should still get his normal spells and one of those is Control Weather. Unless a storm from Thor himself is outside Hel's jurisdiction.

[Sky_Schemer]

That last panel is priceless.

A classic gag, but they are classics for a reason. :smallsmile:

[canpinter]

I wounder dose the HPoH have its own bluff skill or dose it use durkons?

[Keltest]

I wounder dose the HPoH have its own bluff skill or dose it use durkons?

Vampires use the stats and skills from their hosts, but the vampire status grants bonuses to various stats, in addition to the effects of being undead.

[Michaeler]

Oh Thor, how we missed you! Unless of course he's just blindfolded and tanked again...

Best thing, though, is that it doesn't matter why he's causing the storm. Durkon has made very effective use of it.

[random_guy]

I guess it would make sense that Thor could not do anything until now, since the western continent is out of his jurisdiction. The tiger prevented him from entering the southern lands to help Durkon, so being prohibited from stepping beyond his territory is something that happened before.

It would also make sense for him to know what is going on with Durkon. If he can sense Durkon getting it on with Hilgya, he can sense that Durkon's soul is trapped by a vampire soul. That said, there is the possibility the lightning was just random lighting he was throwing around while drunk.

[Miriel]

And so why doesn't he do that? Despite being HPoH now, he should still get his normal spells and one of those is Control Weather. Unless a storm from Thor himself is outside Hel's jurisdiction.
I'm pretty sure even a 7th-level spell isn't enough to stop a God from doing what he wants, jurisdiction or not.

[brionl]

Thor noticing something? Inconceivable!

[warmachine]

It is known the gods rarely communicate with people or send unambiguous signs, expecting clerics to speak on their behalf or interpret signs. So, is Thor deliberately creating the storm to bring down the Mechane or force attention on vampire Durkon?

[canpinter]

Vampires use the stats and skills from their hosts, but the vampire status grants bonuses to various stats, in addition to the effects of being undead.

thank you.

So there is some chance he can lie his way out of this tho not everyone might believe him. My money is on Roy buying the lie he already wants to believe that his friend is still in someway "alive". Belkar on the other hand is gona trust him even less after this.

[BroomGuys]

I really hope Durkula is a short lived minor villain after all. I really, really do. Cause that sub-plot is gonna drive me crazy if it's not a short one.

Seconded. I'm not too good at dealing with this kind of dramatic irony; every time someone is taken in by the HPoH's act it's gonna be excruciating for me.

[Dandria]

Well, I think they already guessed Thor wouldn't be too happy about Durkon's vampirization. I think this is probably going to make them suspect something, but I wouldn't say the secret is out already.

[cybishop]

I don't know much about D&D rules, but I seem to remember that Control Weather has a long casting time and takes a while to take effect. Thor can get around that when he wants to (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0353.html), but he wouldn't want to here, and it seems unlikely that Hel could. Maybe if the HPoH had cast it in advance it would have helped, but now? They're going to have to creatively reinterpret the rules in some new way or land, and even that is no guarantee of safety.

[Keltest]

thank you.

So there is some chance he can lie his way out of this tho not everyone might believe him. My money is on Roy buying the lie he already wants to believe that his friend is still in someway "alive". Belkar on the other hand is gona trust him even less after this.

I think the comic has moved a bit beyond "Durkon needs to make a bluff check or his story ends here and now." although there might be a joke about it in Durkon's head. Im fairly confidant that the plausibility of his lie will be what makes people more or less suspicious of him rather than Durkon's bluff score.

[Psyren]

About time Thor started pulling his weight. Though all Darkon has to do is pull the good old "my god must be sending us a sign! I will gladly commune with him as soon as we're well within Dwarven lands at his holy temple which is the best place for me to do that."

[Shining Wrath]

So Thor knows *something* and is acting? That seems out of character for the big guy. But "clear skies and then worst storm in years" means this storm is Thor's, as stated.

And Durkon's smile while Durkula curses? Everyone is going to expect Durkon to intercede, and he can't. Because he's the High Priest of Hel. And it's going to be very difficult to talk his way out of this one.

Prediction: Thor sent the storm, but it isn't aimed at the Mechane. This is a side effect of some other goal, which will be revealed in good time.

[Dudu]

I don't think Durkula is going down so soon. But damn, that was one hell of a slip...

[Keltest]

So Thor knows *something* and is acting? That seems out of character for the big guy. But "clear skies and then worst storm in years" means this storm is Thor's, as stated.

And Durkon's smile while Durkula curses? Everyone is going to expect Durkon to intercede, and he can't. Because he's the High Priest of Hel. And it's going to be very difficult to talk his way out of this one.

Prediction: Thor sent the storm, but it isn't aimed at the Mechane. This is a side effect of some other goal, which will be revealed in good time.

Don't forget though, the lightning very deliberately went AROUND the lightning rod. Thor wants the Machine to land, whether or not that's in addition to any other goals of his with the storm.

[Psyren]

Seconded. I'm not too good at dealing with this kind of dramatic irony; every time someone is taken in by the HPoH's act it's gonna be excruciating for me.

Prepare to be disappointed then, because the only remaining member of the party with a decent Sense Motive doesn't appear to be on the deck.

[FolcoTook]

Is it just me, or does that ship mechanic look like Kaylee Frye?

This fact made me far more excited than I should be right now.

Kind of like Kaylee wearing Jayne's hat (https://www.google.com/search?q=firefly+jayne+hat&es_sm=93&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=DCZ6U7zSCM6iqAbZl4GwBg&ved=0CFQQsAQ&biw=1374&bih=441).

And I agree with the Durkula talking his way out of it crowd. I think it will be the first piece of evidence that leads to the inevitable realization that Durkula is the HPoH, but it will probably take a while.

[Gift Jeraff]

I guess his best option would be to come clean about not being a cleric of Thor, but try to sell it as, "'Tis not me fault bein' undead makes ye technically evil, an' Thor does nae allow fer evil clerics."

[canpinter]

Do we know how much base information HPoH has on just how the world works, I mean it did not need to learn how to walk and talk but any information on specific people it had to steal from durkon. because if it doesn't have any good information about how thor acts now would be a perfect time for durkon to someone slip it some bad info when its pressured and in a rush and might just buy it.

[Shining Wrath]

Thor noticing something? Inconceivable!

That word ... you keep using it ... and in this case, it means exactly what you think it means.

But while Thor may be usually clueless, he does have a father who is not. Odin. Guy who goes by the moniker "all-seeing" from time to time.

I wonder if Odin told Thor what was going on.

[Keltest]

I guess his best option would be to come clean about not being a cleric of Thor, but try to sell it as, "'Tis not me fault bein' undead makes ye technically evil, an' Thor does nae allow fer evil clerics."

I see this as being the most likely scenario. He technically worships Thor in the same way that Roy does, however HPoH will claim to be a cleric of some cause or other.

[LadyEowyn]

Heh. This raises the obvious question of why Durkula hasn't used Control Weather. It's one of Durkon's spells, and a logical one to prepare when you're travelling in an airship.

Or does Durkula have a different spell set now that he's working for Hel rather than Thor?

[Keltest]

Heh. This raises the obvious question of why Durkula hasn't used Control Weather. It's one of Durkon's spells, and a logical one to prepare when you're travelling in an airship.

Or does Durkula have a different spell set now that he's working for Hel rather than Thor?

The only spells which would change are the Domain slots. Hel presumably has different domains than Thor. However Control Weather is not one of them, or rather, is on the normal clerical spell list.

[Shining Wrath]

About time Thor started pulling his weight. Though all Darkon has to do is pull the good old "my god must be sending us a sign! I will gladly commune with him as soon as we're well within Dwarven lands at his holy temple which is the best place for me to do that."

Except that if the Mechane is forced down he's a dead ... er, deader ... er, enhanced deadness ... man. A vampire lasts 3 rounds in running water, which includes oceans / seas. Unless Hel can somehow interfere with Thor's storm (working on assumption it's not her storm, which seems extremely likely), HPoH is simply out of luck. And if Hel *does* interfere with Thor's storm, then it is *on*, and I don't think Hel can go toe-to-toe with Thor anywhere outside of her own domain.

[littlebum2002]

I hope I'm not the only one who immediately started singing "Whether the weather is warm, or whether the weather is hot..." in my head when I read the title


But more importantly, since when did Thor start taking an interest in what the OotS was doing except when specifically asked to?

[Eldest]

Well, it's about time Thor figured out what's happened. Looks like he's not happy.

I, personally, think Thor noticed the moment Durkon got changed. It's jurisdiction. He can't act outside of the north, remember what happened the last time, in the south. I can't find the link, but he (Thor) got chewed out for doing a favor for Durkon in the south.

[Bluepaw]

Religion'd!!!

[Fish]

Thor may be simply trying to destroy the High Priestess of a rival goddess. Given his track record it's unlikely he knows it's Durkon.

[Dragolord]

Prepare to be disappointed then, because the only remaining member of the party with a decent Sense Motive doesn't appear to be on the deck.

I doubt that it matters. He's a Lawful Good (or was) dwarf. Even assuming he's one of the half-dozen dwarves with a positive Charisma bonus, he'd hardly have put any ranks into Bluff.

[Shale]

I would be surprised if this leads directly to HPOH being figured out. They already know he's evil, and basic Knowledge: Religion indicates that Thor wouldn't like him anymore just because of that.

[Toper]

The only spells which would change are the Domain slots. Hel presumably has different domains than Thor. However Control Weather is not one of them, or rather, is on the normal clerical spell list.
But, as has been noted, Control Weather isn't going to stop divine intervention any more than the lightning rod did. I would venture to say that nothing, short of the Snarl itself, is likely to stop Thor's own personal lightning in his own domain, if that's indeed what we're seeing here.

It's pretty amazing to see a god taking such a direct interest in the mortal realm. I wonder whether Durkon was able to pray to him or if he noticed the situation of his own accord -- Odin prophesied on Durkon's return once already and he must certainly have been one of Thor's best clerics, so either seems plausible.

Also, apparently Adad is the Mesopotamian weather god. Neat!

[Peelee]

Here's hoping the vampire can talk himself out of this, because Roy is quite hampered holding that rope down at the moment. If V can be handled, that would put the odds in the vampires favor in a fight.

[cybishop]

how much does Thor know, or is it just a random storm because he's Thor on a bender again?


Thor actually being competent? I don't believe it :)


Thor noticing something? Inconceivable!

We get it already, Thor's an idiot. But just because he has mostly been a joke character so far doesn't mean he can never be anything else. I would not assume Odin's involvement here, or more weird plot-significant rules about how vampires work, or anything else other than "Thor isn't happy that a priest of his has been vampirized." Occam's Razor seems to cover this.

[Snowfire]

But more importantly, since when did Thor start taking an interest in what the OotS was doing except when specifically asked to?

About the time Durkon (probably one the highest level clerics he had) got stolen from him by Hel. Thor does seem to love a good grudge, you know :smallwink:

This should be fun to watch.

[ratfox]

Considering how genre-savvy the Order is, I would have expected they would know about Durkon not being a priest of Thor any more…
Then I'm not sure what they think he is praying to, or if they think he is a Godless priest (that exists, right?), but Thor might be unhappy at him
even if he were good ol' Durkon under the fangs.

The other problem is, what can they do about it? They don't have a priest to resuscitate the good Durkon after staking the bad.
…Then again, maybe the crew is just going to throw Durkula overboard to get rid of the storm. They're not his friends.

[Vladier]

Except that if the Mechane is forced down he's a dead ... er, deader ... er, enhanced deadness ... man.

The word you're looking for is "destroyed" - a go-around D&D term for re-deadening the undead.

I really love that "Crap", I really do. Though the High Priest has plenty of ways of talking out of this, without having to admit to being a Negative energy being in possession of Durkon's soul (also, that actually should mean that a simple Protection from Evil should by rules be enough to give real Durkon full control over his faculties for the duration of the spell - and an additional proof that "real" D&D vampirism doesn't work like that - I guess Rich didn't think that through).

[Ninja Dragon]

Interestingly enough, Belkar is the only one actually making an angry face.

While the others are just puzzled, Belkar is already figuring it out.

[ManuelSacha]

Gotcha!
There is no way he's talking his way out of this.
Roy isn't that dumb.


Is it just me, or does that ship mechanic look like Kaylee Frye?
This fact made me far more excited than I should be right now.

Yeah, a little bit.
We will only be sure of it if she says "shiny" and eats a strawberry in the next page...

[SavageWombat]

Time for that +8 to Bluff checks.

[davidbofinger]

There's still all sorts of ways this could go.

HPoH talks his way out of it.
HPoH has to jump and featherfall for it. (Once they are over land.)
The Mechane is trashed in the fight, crashlands and HPOH legs it.
The HPOH is destroyed, Durkon is resurrected, and in a massive irony attack Durkon still brings disaster on his homeland. (Maybe because no one else knows he's back.)
Six other ideas I haven't thought of.

The Giant is so far from painting himself into a corner here that it hardly seems worth the trouble to guess which one he's headed for.

This is, IMO, probably the best strip since the new book started.

[Mr. Pants]

Just as I thought...

[Theory]

While we don't know the exact question the evil cleric asked back in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0947.html , or exactly what Durkon intended to show in his flashback, but it may have been in that first few panels and the bit about Thor's sky, and later how it was no place for dwarves. The HPoH latched on to the immediate response, but missed (or ignored) the philosophical basis for why Durkon later chose the path of a priest of Thor.

Thor has been shown (as joke fodder) to be fairly self-centered, but any good viking could tell you that can be surmounted by someone trying to take what is yours. That will draw a lot of intense focus.

Randomly lobed lightning would prefer to hit the lightning rod. Avoiding it to specifically hit the engines, which will allow for a controlled decent rather than just blasting the ship in two, seems to indicate that this is not accidental, or an attempt to merely destroy the abomination.

Regardless of Thor's actual attention, he and Durkon spoke daily. Typically in a one sided request for spells, and he does seem to let the message service take over when he's rumbling with Loki. Still, most of the priest of Thor probably have fairly boring daily requests. Same pack of spells, day after day, as they work under the mountains.
Durkon, by contrast, had a wide range of needs that changed daily.

Thor might have looked forward to it, like his daily soaps.

[Shining Wrath]

The word you're looking for is "destroyed" - a go-around D&D term for re-deadening the undead.

I really love that "Crap", I really do. Though the High Priest has plenty of ways of talking out of this, without having to admit to being a Negative energy being in possession of Durkon's soul (also, that actually should mean that a simple Protection from Evil should by rules be enough to give real Durkon full control over his faculties for the duration of the spell - and an additional proof that "real" D&D vampirism doesn't work like that - I guess Rich didn't think that through).

"Destroyed" is so unpoetic and allows for no wordplay off the common expression "He's a dead man". :smalltongue:

Protection from Evil wards you against domination et cetera, but I can just imagine the rules lawyering that would take place in this case, because HPoH is *inside* Durkon. It's similar to the "you can't use Circle of Protection from Evil as weapon by forcing it against an evil creature" rule; I don't think PfE acts as an all-purpose exorcism spell. From the SRD:


Likewise, the barrier keeps out a possessing life force but does not expel one if it is in place before the spell is cast. This second effect works regardless of alignment.

It is unclear to me whether or not the possessing life force remains in control while PfE is in effect.

[Shale]

I don't think the "crap" is "oh crap, the adventurers may be able to figure me out" - it's "crap, the other GODS have figured out that I'm working for Hel."

[Locnil]

First time the comic updated while I was on the site, even if I was on another tab. :smalltongue:

So, I'm guessing that Thor's trying to subtly warn them something's not right, since he's not allowed to outright tell them? Seems to be a crapshoot as to whether or not that works.

[Doug Lampert]

I doubt that it matters. He's a Lawful Good (or was) dwarf. Even assuming he's one of the half-dozen dwarves with a positive Charisma bonus, he'd hardly have put any ranks into Bluff.

From the SRD:

Abilities
Increase from the base creature as follows: Str +6, Dex +4, Int +2, Wis +2, Cha +4. As an undead creature, a vampire has no Constitution score.

Skills
Vampires have a +8 racial bonus on Bluff, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, and Spot checks. Otherwise same as the base creature.

Durkula is at least +10 on bluff vs. Durkon.

[King of Nowhere]

Intersting.
So, Thor is aware of what happened to durkon, and is trying to drop hints.
He's also apparently unconcerned about delaying the order in the fight with xykon. does he consider durkula to be a greater treath than xykon? does he know something we don't? or maybe we know something he don't?

[NihhusHuotAliro]

DAT Yeerkon face in the last panel.

GOTCHA, SUCKA!

[Angelalex242]

Well, real Durkon certainly believes that Thor's doing his best to help him out. Durkula equally believes that Thor's doing his best to rat him out.

And everyone's staring at Durkula, and putting 2+2 together isn't that damn hard.

A Vampire's natural +8 to bluff isn't going to be enough to overcome the circumstance penalties of 'Thor doesn't like him anymore? That's not the real Durkon in there!'

[Shale]

Except they already know he's evil - "no more'n Belkar, I'd wager" is still way up there in kilonazis - and gods don't like it when their prists switch alignment even when they haven't been taken over by negative-energy body snatchers.

[Durkoala]

But while Thor may be usually clueless, he does have a father who is not. Odin. Guy who goes by the moniker "all-seeing" from time to time.

Norse Odin does. We've seen nothing to show that this applies to Stick Odin.
Technicaly he's not Stick Odin anymore, so you could wiggle with that arguement.
Something is definitely up, though, with that laser-guided stealth thunderstorm. The looks on the Durkons' faces are so satisfying

[137beth]

Yea, Elan cast an under-appreciated cantrip and oh...

If he weren't immune to diseases, HPoH would be feigning illness to get out of talking right about now...

[Angelalex242]

It's great.

I can imagine Durkon going, "Ye can take me body, ye can take me memories. But ye'll never take me connection to my God! Who, by the way, can hear everything going on in our head due to the divine connection between me and him. Prayin' be all I can do in this state...but prayin' be enough! If I be lucky, he'll smite us outright."

[Ghost Nappa]

Something dramatic is happening. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0199.html)

Last comic, Belkar compared Roy to a Wharf (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheWorfEffect).
I don't foresee any smooching, and it's really early to reveal Durkula's traitor card, so expect someone to die.

[Hypothetical]

Rut Roh Raggy, Rye rhrink Thror rot rery rappy.

[HandofShadows]

One word from the vampire says it all. :smallbiggrin:

[sam79]

So this just got interesting. I was wondering when someone might think "Hey, who on our team might be a useful person to have around in a storm?" So is 'Real' Durkon happy because he's been praying for the storm, or because there's a good chance that Vamp 'Durkon' could be about to be found out?

It's the latter, I reckon.

[BannedInSchool]

In context, the simplest problem is that there's a storm that Durkula can't appeal to Thor to have miss them, like the other cleric was doing before. The wherefore of the storm itself is still up in the air.

[Roland Itiative]

That twist was very satisfying to read. Thor got some awesome points in my book.

Now, I wonder if Durkula will be able to get out of this one.

[Angelalex242]

I think it's both. Real Durkon has been praying for the storm, probably literally since he became a vampire in the first place, and since he's been praying so faithfully, Thor obliged. I'd say Durkon's even been praying to get smited directly. (Real Durkon's going to Valhalla/Mt. Celestia if Durkula is killed). He's also praying Durkula gets busted by this.

Among other reasons Thor's not happy...the soul of HIS cleric is trapped, and can't come to Valhalla like it should.

[Bulldog Psion]

Well, if Durk Malackssen just got unmasked, that's got to be the shortest subplot ever. Which suggests to me that he won't be unmasked.

Totally "meta" thinking, I know, but it's the first idea that popped into my head. It's far too soon for Durk to be actually detected and slain by the Order. Plus, it's too obvious that's what we're expected to think is going to happen. Mr. Burlew is a superb master of misdirection. :smallsmile:

[Crusher]

Its too soon for Durkula to be found out. Its going to look bad for him but at the last minute he's going to weasel his way out of this in some fashion. But the Order, and especially Belkar, are going to have a faint feeling that something is up and will be keeping a closer eye on him going forward.

[Michaeler]

While we don't know the exact question the evil cleric asked back in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0947.html , or exactly what Durkon intended to show in his flashback, but it may have been in that first few panels and the bit about Thor's sky, and later how it was no place for dwarves. The HPoH latched on to the immediate response, but missed (or ignored) the philosophical basis for why Durkon later chose the path of a priest of Thor.

I interpreted it a different way. HPoH asked why Durkon had recently started being so free with letting him rummage through his memories, but since the storm began Durkon manipulated HPoH into thinking that he could best fool the order by making some very loud references to Thor.

Durkon did this because sooner or later someone would connect the storm to Thor and everybody on the Mechane would connect that to "Durkon"

[Angelalex242]

Well, yes, I suppose there's always, "The Order proves to be terrifyingly stupid and rolls 1s on all their sense motive rolls..."

But there is no law that a subplot must be drawn out for x amount of strips. To meta your meta, it's actually a plot twist if he DOES get busted and slain on the spot. Because then, among other things, the party's down a cleric, no ifs ands or buts about it. Durkula still provided healing, now they'll have none. Which creates different problems for the party.

[Keltest]

Well, if Durk Malackssen just got unmasked, that's got to be the shortest subplot ever. Which suggests to me that he won't be unmasked.

Totally "meta" thinking, I know, but it's the first idea that popped into my head. It's far too soon for Durk to be actually detected and slain by the Order. Plus, it's too obvious that's what we're expected to think is going to happen. Mr. Burlew is a superb master of misdirection. :smallsmile:

Well you have to remember, getting revealed as a villain doesn't mean his story is automatically done. He can run (or fly if theyre close to land, and weve seen him turn into a bat before) away and then go and do his own thing.

[Squall83]

That was SO Deus Ex Machina!!!! :smallbiggrin:

Just kidding. I know that DEM is when a god turns events around without any reason whatsoever, but a god intervening with the OOTS' fate comes so close that I just had to post that. ^^

[warmachine]

I was thinking that Durkula can make up any bull as it's unlikely anyone knows enough religion to contradict him. However, OotS is a world where clerics can interpret divine events and the gods make immediate changes in response people's actions. Durkula has to explain why Thor is angry and what will appease him to stop the storm.

Alas, Thor is not going to relent and no matter what lame excuse is offered, the others are going to demand results. Now. No memory from Durkon will help. Thor may not directly communicate with non-worshipping mortals but he's got them to box in an enemy agent. Me thinks Thor is smarter than he looks.

[Dragolord]

From the SRD:


Durkula is at least +10 on bluff vs. Durkon.

Assuming he started with 10 Charisma. He could easily only have 10 or 11 post-vampirising. I mean, unless he's one of those players who consider Charisma to be an enemy on par with a Balor/Tarrasque hybrid with class levels and DR25/, it would be a little stupid to make a cleric with more than -1 Charisma, but it's possible.

[Angelalex242]

The logical response to any bluff he makes, though, is, "Maybe you've been able to fool us all this time, but you know who you can't fool? Thor. Get him, guys!"

[Keltest]

The logical response to any bluff he makes, though, is, "Maybe you've been able to fool us all this time, but you know who you can't fool? Thor. Get him, guys!"

perhaps you don't understand the point of a bluff...

[Shining Wrath]

I was thinking that Durkula can make up any bull as it's unlikely anyone knows enough religion to contradict him. However, OotS is a world where clerics can interpret divine events and the gods make immediate changes in response people's actions. Durkula has to explain why Thor is angry and what will appease him to stop the storm.

Alas, Thor is not going to relent and no matter what lame excuse is offered, the others are going to demand results. Now. No memory from Durkon will help. Thor may not directly communicate with non-worshipping mortals but he's got them to box in an enemy agent. Me thinks Thor is smarter than he looks.

He'd pretty much have to be smarter than he looks says HPoH to Durkon.

Everyone assumes this storm is from Thor ... which makes me wonder if it's not. Regardless, though, the guy who keeps on taking Thor's name in sort-of-vain (do Dwarves even HAVE that commandment :smallconfused:?) is about to be asked to explain Thor's doings ... in a manner that accords with Durkon's memories, which are those of a faithful follower, which won't allow for "Thor is drunk again" type answers.

[Angelalex242]

Circumstance Penalty.

If I, a white dude, told you I was President Obama, how big a penalty would I have to that bluff check?

Durkula faces something similar.

[Anarion]

I wonder if Hel has any way to intervene here. This us Thor's domain, but she probably doesn't want him interfering directly. Exciting.

[Angelalex242]

Hel can try...but she's breaking the rules as is by keeping a cleric's soul from going to its deity. If Hel wants to pick a direct fight, Thor's game. He's got Mjolnir for a reason.

[zimmerwald1915]

Circumstance Penalty.
Circumstance modifiers normally don't exceed ±2, and while this might be an exceptional case, it also might not be.


Hel can try...but she's breaking the rules as is by keeping a cleric's soul from going to its deity. If Hel wants to pick a direct fight, Thor's game. He's got Mjolnir for a reason.
Er, no. She's following the rules. Northern vampire-spirits are normally birthed in her hall, and vampirization normally works the way Durkon's vampirization works (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=17327934#post17327934). The rules aren't exactly fair or just to Durkon or Thor, but nobody ever said the universe was fair or just.

[Metahuman1]

I kinda like the idea that it's not too early for this sub plot to close. That he is about to go by-by. Mostly cause the whole lying evil traitor in our group that we stupidly don't know about and obviously won't believe is real till he's actively killing us in the face while monologing is annoying to me in the extreme. This, however, would be hilarious. And in a comic that's been light on humor more recently, I could do with hilarious!

[Seerow]

I kinda like the idea that it's not too early for this sub plot to close. That he is about to go by-by. Mostly cause the whole lying evil traitor in our group that we stupidly don't know about and obviously won't believe is real till he's actively killing us in the face while monologing is annoying to me in the extreme. This, however, would be hilarious. And in a comic that's been light on humor more recently, I could do with hilarious!

It's possible. But given this is something that Rich apparently planned from close to the start of the comic, and the amount of time it took before it actually happened, I'll be shocked if it's something that's reverted that quickly.

[ManuelSacha]

Well, if Durk Malackssen just got unmasked, that's got to be the shortest subplot ever. Which suggests to me that he won't be unmasked.
Totally "meta" thinking, I know, but it's the first idea that popped into my head. It's far too soon for Durk to be actually detected and slain by the Order.

To me, it would be a welcome change of pace.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for long-winded, often-hidden, ChrisClaremontesque subplots... but since OotS is all about that, it would be cool to get an immediate answer to something, just for once.

Or maybe it's just the fact that I dislike this specific subplot and this Durkula character.


Plus, it's too obvious that's what we're expected to think is going to happen. Mr. Burlew is a superb master of misdirection. :smallsmile:

Well... no. Looked at the bolded parts.
On the contrary, we're all expecting him to survive this (even though some of us hope not) and be a pain in the backside until the end.
That's what's too obvious, atm... but I still don't expect any surprises.

Gee... I hope the Giant doesn't read this, or this might turn into "I knew that you knew that I knew" situation fast... :smallbiggrin:

[Shale]

Even if he is detected, no way he'll be slain yet. He'd escape and start implementing Hel's plan on his own. I'd bet money on that one.

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

[Mando Knight]

Last comic, Belkar compared Roy to a Wharf (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheWorfEffect).

That's a wharf (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wharf), not a Worf. Belkar was referring to how Roy's strength and sturdiness made him perfect for holding down the rope like a mooring post, not how his role in combat is basically to take a ridiculous amount of punishment to show how tough the enemy is.

[Killer Angel]

Suddenly, my respect for Thor increased by one order of magnitude. :smallbiggrin:

[sengmeng]

Prediction time: Durkula says something that makes him seem like Durkon is still in there, such as "Thor's nae listenin' to me, I'll do my best" and everyone grudgingly accepts this, but later, Roy confronts him alone and demands to know who is granting him spells, and it turns violent.

Edit: also, vampirism is sometimes seen as a disease. Does anyone wonder if that's why Durkon's soul is bound by Hel to his vampire body? Will we see Thor arguing with Hel for Durkon?

[zimmerwald1915]

That's a wharf (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wharf), not a Worf. Belkar was referring to how Roy's strength and sturdiness made him perfect for holding down the rope like a mooring post, not how his role in combat is basically to take a ridiculous amount of punishment to show how tough the enemy is.
Wordplay is a thing that exists in the world.

Also, Roy has played that role in encounters from the earliest strips (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0038.html) to the most recent strips (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0927.html).

[Keltest]

Wordplay is a thing that exists in the world.

Also, Roy has played that role in encounters from the earliest strips (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0038.html) to the most recent strips (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0927.html).

Id like to point out that as fighter, it is Roy's job to take the damage whether or not it is to show how strong the enemies are. Roy gets beat up a lot because he throws himself onto peoples swords, not because hes a powerful character used to show how powerful other characters are.

[Cicciograna]

Awesome!

Only thing I can't understand, what's the deal with Belkar's reference to the rope? Is "burn the rope" some sort of slang, a joke or something?
Please do note that I'm not a native English speaker.

[elros]

I definitely didn't pick Captain Bandana as the guy to "out" Durkula!

How let's see how Durkula handles this...

[Keltest]

Awesome!

Only thing I can't understand, what's the deal with Belkar's reference to the rope? Is "burn the rope" some sort of slang, a joke or something?
Please do note that I'm not a native English speaker.

Hes being literal in this case. Imagine holding an actual candle to an actual rope, and then imagine poor Bandana's face when she realized that Belkar just caused whatever was on the end of that rope to go flying.

[homeslice]

I imagine Durkula will find some way out of this. Though I admit, I am surprised that suspicion was being raised this early on.

[Connington]

HPOH is forced to cop to the fact that Thor and he are no longer exactly on good terms, with an acknowledgement of an alignment change. Previous references to Thor's this and Thor's that are out of habit and affection. He portrays his alignment change as something involuntary that he struggles against, just like his blood requirement. But gosh darn it, Thor is just being unreasonable about destroying undead former priests of his, like a jealous ex. But of course he's still loyal to the party, and of course he wants to save the world.

Party doesn't entirely buy it, but they're not going to throw their old friend overboard on a suspicion. A couple suspicious incidents later (contact with Hel, uncharacteristic behavior, some gap in knowledge, research into vampire nature) prove that the HOPH isn't Durkon. Before the Order can stake him, he flees, and goes on a prophesied murder rampage.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Ah, so it was divine interference. I'm predicting (like many others) that the High Priest of Hel will manage to get out of this one, but it has definitely made everyone more suspicious. That last panel is great. Thank you, Giant!

[Doug Lampert]

Circumstance Penalty.

If I, a white dude, told you I was President Obama, how big a penalty would I have to that bluff check?

Durkula faces something similar.

Standard circumstance penalty is -2.
This would be worse, but -20 is for "The bluff is way out there, almost too incredible to consider."

But in a world with magic (or in our world with makeup and plastic surgery) your example of being the wrong color is no where close to that level of unlikelihood.

Nor does anything about Thor throwing around lightning reach that level. "I guess Thor isn't too happy that I'm a vampire now." What EXACTLY about what the order knows or suspects about Durkula would be changed by that explanation or would not make sense about it? Really, this is not an impossible situation by any means. Thor being angry ought to be the EXPECTED response were this really Durkon or not.

Durkon was prepared to believe that Thor hindered them with a storm in the past, why would Thor hindering them with a storm now suddenly mean there's something WORSE going on than Durkon being an evil bloodsucking vampire?

[strijder20]

Hes being literal in this case. Imagine holding an actual candle to an actual rope, and then imagine poor Bandana's face when she realized that Belkar just caused whatever was on the end of that rope to go flying.

To answer Ciccio's question: 'I can't hold a candle to X' means 'I'm nowhere near X in terms of skill', so he's taking an idiom literally.

OT: How would the Order react on a simple: 'I'm Lawful Evil now, so I've got to worship Hel instead of Thor'?

[Forikroder]

Standard circumstance penalty is -2.
This would be worse, but -20 is for "The bluff is way out there, almost too incredible to consider."

But in a world with magic (or in our world with makeup and plastic surgery) your example of being the wrong color is no where close to that level of unlikelihood.

Nor does anything about Thor throwing around lightning reach that level. "I guess Thor isn't too happy that I'm a vampire now." What EXACTLY about what the order knows or suspects about Durkula would be changed by that explanation or would not make sense about it? Really, this is not an impossible situation by any means. Thor being angry ought to be the EXPECTED response were this really Durkon or not.

Durkon was prepared to believe that Thor hindered them with a storm in the past, why would Thor hindering them with a storm now suddenly mean there's something WORSE going on than Durkon being an evil bloodsucking vampire?

they know Thor uses lightning storms as warnings and blessings so if Roy can remember that then he may be thinking "what would thor be warning us about"

[Ivrytwr]

'Crap' indeed!
I wonder if Bardic traditional will be thwarted and Durkon will be revealed before the last-possible-minute?
Wonder what Thor is trying to say exactly? And how far will Thor go to fight Hel?

[Vladier]

"Destroyed" is so unpoetic and allows for no wordplay off the common expression "He's a dead man". :smalltongue:

Protection from Evil wards you against domination et cetera, but I can just imagine the rules lawyering that would take place in this case, because HPoH is *inside* Durkon. It's similar to the "you can't use Circle of Protection from Evil as weapon by forcing it against an evil creature" rule; I don't think PfE acts as an all-purpose exorcism spell. From the SRD:

It is unclear to me whether or not the possessing life force remains in control while PfE is in effect.


It's actually clear.
He's not exactly "inside" him, as in, he's not some kind of brain slug that controls him through his neurons. He's possessing him, and that means that Protection from Evil will prevent him from controlling Durkon's body. It's explicitly said in the spell's description that such effects as Charm and Dominate Person will still be applied (with their duration timing out), they just won't take effect until Protection runs out (though Dominate Person still should allow for telepathic link, it's just mental control that's suppressed), and the same is true for possession. Protection from Evil isn't an all-purpose exorcism spell, because it doesn't exorcise anything. It just doesn't let one be possessed or suppresses possession already in place for a time. So, if applied to Durkon and the HPoH won't be able to pass a Will save (or if he decides to cast it on himself, hilariously enough), something will happen - either Drukon will be free for a number of minutes/level of a caster, or HPoH won't be able to control Durkon's body, but Durkon won't be able either as he's bound. I'd guess first and being bound is simply meaning that Durkon is possessed and can't even make a Will check.

[Forikroder]

It's actually clear.
He's not exactly "inside" him, as in, he's not some kind of brain slug that controls him through his neurons. He's possessing him, and that means that Protection from Evil will prevent him from controlling Durkon's body. It's explicitly said in the spell's description that such effects as Charm and Dominate Person will still be applied (with their duration timing out), they just won't take effect until Protection runs out (though Dominate Person still should allow for telepathic link, it's just mental control that's suppressed), and the same is true for possession. Protection from Evil isn't an all-purpose exorcism spell, because it doesn't exorcise anything. It just doesn't let one be possessed or suppresses possession already in place for a time. So, if applied to Durkon and the HPoH won't be able to pass a Will save (or if he decides to cast it on himself, hilariously enough), something will happen - either Drukon will be free for a number of minutes/level of a caster, or HPoH won't be able to control Durkon's body, but Durkon won't be able either as he's bound. I'd guess first and being bound is simply meaning that Durkon is possessed and can't even make a Will check.

of course thats ignoring the fact that its not technically possesion and the one who put Durkula in there is a literal god so nothing short of divine magic is actually going to be able to prevent Durkula from operating the body

also considering the body is physically different from Durkons orginal body its probably closer to Durkula being the owner who is "possessed" by Durkon

[Itrogash]

Even if Durkula is not outed with this, I see a perfect reason for Belkar to confront Roy about him again.

The main reason Roy tolerates vampire in the team (or at least the reason he deludes himself with) is because they need healer and ressurecter and HPoH is the only high-level cleric available. To this moment it was fine, because it haven't bore any consequences. But after this incident it's clear that having Durkula in the team brings divine wrath upon them. It could endanger the team as well as Bandana's crew. It could even endanger success of their mission!

Now Roy may be guilt tripping about Durkon, but he also is fairly reasonable and I think he can see, that even a high-level cleric is not worth an angry god throwing lightnings at them. If Belkar uses those arguments right (and we know he's very well capable of delivering shaking, truthful speeches), Roy might reconsider his view on keeping Durkula undead.

[Fellow]

Does the ocean they're over even count as running water? Hel's priest could just run away.

[sotanaht]

Dun dun dun...

So, how will he talk his way out of this one? Also, how much does Thor know, or is it just a random storm because he's Thor on a bender again?

I would go with: "The Truth".

Crazy I know, but at least as far as Deities are concerned, there's nothing about the truth the main cast would disagree with any more than the things that they already know. He is a follower of Hel now, came with the alignment change, sorry, forgot to mention that.

If he were trying to hide the fact he was a vampire or that he were evil, that would be a problem. Right now, all he needs to hide are Hel's schemes and just how "close" their relationship is, as well as what is really happening to Durkon. Neither are really relevant to the current goings on.

[Forikroder]

Does the ocean they're over even count as running water? Hel's priest could just run away.

he could but then the order would hunt him down, hes not going to outrun them and even if he can keep away he wont have enough time to do Hels plan


Crazy I know, but at least as far as Deities are concerned, there's nothing about the truth the main cast would disagree with any more than the things that they already know. He is a follower of Hel now, came with the alignment change, sorry, forgot to mention that.

If he were trying to hide the fact he was a vampire or that he were evil, that would be a problem. Right now, all he needs to hide are Hel's schemes and just how "close" their relationship is, as well as what is really happening to Durkon. Neither are really relevant to the current goings on.

thats assuming that Roy doesnt know about Hel, Durkons words to Malack showed that no dwarf would ever worship her, and Loki is also an evil god he could worship, if Roy picks up on that then hed realise that Durkon has taken more then an alignment change

[Keltest]

he could but then the order would hunt him down, hes not going to outrun them and even if he can keep away he wont have enough time to do Hels plan

What makes you think either of those statements true?

[Vreejack]

We know that Durkon was banished from dwarven lands for some reason, almost certainly a prophecy. Coming back as Durkula and wreaking havoc sounds like a good reason. I am assuming that one of the real dwarven priests will tell the Order how vampires work right about the time Hel breaks loose.

Do we actually understand how vampires are supposed to work in this world? I was taken aback at first but the idea of vampirism being a form of possession but it is internally consistent, it's just that Malack gave no indication that he understood it as such. And then there is the fact that Durkon's case is supposedly different somehow. Is it that normally vampire spirits are extremely naive at first, and so wind up filling their consciousness with so much of the host that they think they really are the host? HPoH already had a purpose to his existence, and so has a good reason to keep his consciousness separate.

[Angelalex242]

There's also the chance that Thor might simply smite Durkula personally. After all, the spirit of his real cleric in there is surely praying Thor will do exactly that.

[Forikroder]

What makes you think either of those statements true?

if they werent he would have left by now, wasting time searching through Durkons memory to pretend to be there friend and riding with people who will kill him if he messes up is unnecesary risk

the Order isnt letting Durkula out of there sight for long if he leaves they will chase him and if V has enough flight spells he cant run faster then tehy can and theyll be more capable of attacking him while chasing him

unless you think Roy would just forget about Durkon if he left

[Keltest]

We know that Durkon was banished from dwarven lands for some reason, almost certainly a prophecy. Coming back as Durkula and wreaking havoc sounds like a good reason. I am assuming that one of the real dwarven priests will tell the Order how vampires work right about the time Hel breaks loose.

Do we actually understand how vampires are supposed to work in this world? I was taken aback at first but the idea of vampirism being a form of possession but it is internally consistent, it's just that Malack gave no indication that he understood it as such. And then there is the fact that Durkon's case is supposedly different somehow. Is it that normally vampire spirits are extremely naive at first, and so wind up filling their consciousness with so much of the host that they think they really are the host? HPoH already had a purpose to his existence, and so has a good reason to keep his consciousness separate.

Word of Giant is that not only HPoH consistent with standard vaporization, but also that not enough vampires have been resurrected for the victims to explain what happens to their soul.

[Keltest]

if they werent he would have left by now, wasting time searching through Durkons memory to pretend to be there friend and riding with people who will kill him if he messes up is unnecesary risk

the Order isnt letting Durkula out of there sight for long if he leaves they will chase him and if V has enough flight spells he cant run faster then tehy can and theyll be more capable of attacking him while chasing him

unless you think Roy would just forget about Durkon if he left

I think if Durkon were determined to throw off pursuit, he would easily have the resources needed to do to. Furthermore, he has no reason to leave at this time. The absolute worst case scenario if he sticks with the Order is that he is found out and has to flee, which is what he would have to do if he just left. On the other hand, the Order gives him a degree of legitimacy he would otherwise lack.

[sotanaht]

he could but then the order would hunt him down, hes not going to outrun them and even if he can keep away he wont have enough time to do Hels plan



thats assuming that Roy doesnt know about Hel, Durkons words to Malack showed that no dwarf would ever worship her, and Loki is also an evil god he could worship, if Roy picks up on that then hed realise that Durkon has taken more then an alignment change

Loki is almost definitely Chaotic evil, goes with the whole trickster territory (assuming we are even loosely following norse mythology). Hel more likely be lawful, so if Roy were to find out that Durkon had changed gods to match his alignment, she would be the logical choice anyway.

Claiming to still follow Thor will quickly fall apart on him. So really just telling them what they already have or will figure out on their own is the best course of action. The easier they seem to be able to get information out of him, the less likely they will try and dig deeper any time soon.

[Forikroder]

I think if Durkon were determined to throw off pursuit, he would easily have the resources needed to do to. Furthermore, he has no reason to leave at this time. The absolute worst case scenario if he sticks with the Order is that he is found out and has to flee, which is what he would have to do if he just left. On the other hand, the Order gives him a degree of legitimacy he would otherwise lack.

i think V is more then aquantanted with Durkon enough to easily scry him Durkon can run as much as he wants but it would be impossible for him to hide from the order, if Hels plan is strong enough to take down Thor then he needs either a gate or a long period of time in order to pull it off and he needs the order for either of them


Loki is almost definitely Chaotic evil, goes with the whole trickster territory (assuming we are even loosely following norse mythology). Hel more likely be lawful, so if Roy were to find out that Durkon had changed gods to match his alignment, she would be the logical choice anyway.

Claiming to still follow Thor will quickly fall apart on him. So really just telling them what they already have or will figure out on their own is the best course of action. The easier they seem to be able to get information out of him, the less likely they will try and dig deeper any time soon.

Thor is Chaotic good and Durkon enjoyed being his Cleric, under Durkons armor of law beats a heart of Chaos

and besides Durkon is the super honourable type that is completely obsessed to the point of never lieing and Hel is basically the Dwarven god of dis-honour

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Word of Giant is that not only HPoH consistent with standard vaporization, but also that not enough vampires have been resurrected for the victims to explain what happens to their soul.

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?339912-Vampire-question-settled&p=17327934&viewfull=1#post17327934) is the exact quote.

[Angelalex242]

Well, next episode, I rather expect to see Belkar dual wielding wooden stakes and charging Durkula, to unknown effect. "Been carving these just for you, 'buddy!'"

[Vladier]

of course thats ignoring the fact that its not technically possesion and the one who put Durkula in there is a literal god so nothing short of divine magic is actually going to be able to prevent Durkula from operating the body

also considering the body is physically different from Durkons orginal body its probably closer to Durkula being the owner who is "possessed" by Durkon

It doesn't really matter, divine magic or not put HPoH in Durkon. Even if Hel herself decided to possess him, she would still be foiled by Protection from Evil, simply for the reason that there is no way to overcome its effect, at least to my knowledge. And yes, it can't not be possession.

Also, the body is still Durkon's. If you destroy him now and Resurrect him, it will be Durkon who will be in body, not HPoH, who is technically is an Outsider on the notion that he's composed of Negative Energy and thus isn't resurrectable at all without Wish or Miracle if he's actually killed (and I guess he is, since it isn't Magic Jar and he doesn't have anywhere to return to). Though there is that spell that recreates a destroyed undead as undead, but I don't think it would work on Rich's take on vampires and what we would have is Vampire Durkon, not Vampire High Priest of Hel, should it be cast on him.

Also, all this talk about Protection from Evil made me think that the best Enchanter is a True Neutral Enchanter. You can foil any other with correct Protection from [Alignment] spell but there isn't Protection from Neutrality. At least you can fell good about him being vulnerable to Holy Word, Blasphemy, Dictum and Word of Chaos all at once. Conversely, there is no Sentence of I Don't Care, so a True Neutral priest is missing out on a Level 7 spell.

[Keltest]

i think V is more then aquantanted with Durkon enough to easily scry him Durkon can run as much as he wants but it would be impossible for him to hide from the order, if Hels plan is strong enough to take down Thor then he needs either a gate or a long period of time in order to pull it off and he needs the order for either of them

There are plenty of spells that can disrupt scrying attempts. And you have exactly no information to base your last assertion off of at all. We have no idea what Hel's plan is, how long it will take once started, and what it requires, if anything.

[sotanaht]

i think V is more then aquantanted with Durkon enough to easily scry him Durkon can run as much as he wants but it would be impossible for him to hide from the order, if Hels plan is strong enough to take down Thor then he needs either a gate or a long period of time in order to pull it off and he needs the order for either of them



Thor is Chaotic good and Durkon enjoyed being his Cleric, under Durkons armor of law beats a heart of Chaos

and besides Durkon is the super honourable type that is completely obsessed to the point of never lieing and Hel is basically the Dwarven god of dis-honour

Ok yeah I probably shouldn't bring alignment into it.

Point is though that any lie will be easily discovered and make things worse in the long (and relatively short) run. How is a follower of Hel drawing on the memories of a follower of Thor supposed to pass himself off as a follower of Loki, and even if he could are we sure that it would really be any better for him if he did?

He certainly can't pass himself off as a follower of Thor for much longer though. First thing he would have to do in that case is to try to appease his patron, and the only way something even remotely like that could work is some god on god intervention from Hel. Reveal a lesser truth to hide a greater lie.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

It doesn't really matter, divine magic or not put HPoH in Durkon. Even if Hel herself decided to possess him, she would still be foiled by Protection from Evil, simply for the reason that there is no way to overcome its effect, at least to my knowledge. And yes, it can't not be possession.

Also, the body is still Durkon's. If you destroy him now and Resurrect him, it will be Durkon who will be in body, not HPoH, who is technically is an Outsider on the notion that he's composed of Negative Energy and thus isn't resurrectable at all without Wish or Miracle if he's actually killed (and I guess he is, since it isn't Magic Jar and he doesn't have anywhere to return to)
Huh, I never realized that Protection from Evil could accomplish that. Of course, in order to use it to that effect, the Order would have to realize that Durkon is possessed, but it would be very helpful.

[Forikroder]

It doesn't really matter, divine magic or not put HPoH in Durkon. Even if Hel herself decided to possess him, she would still be foiled by Protection from Evil, simply for the reason that there is no way to overcome its effect, at least to my knowledge. And yes, it can't not be possession.

Also, the body is still Durkon's. If you destroy him now and Resurrect him, it will be Durkon who will be in body, not HPoH, who is technically is an Outsider on the notion that he's composed of Negative Energy and thus isn't resurrectable at all without Wish or Miracle if he's actually killed (and I guess he is, since it isn't Magic Jar and he doesn't have anywhere to return to). Though there is that spell that recreates a destroyed undead as undead, but I don't think it would work on Rich's take on vampires and what we would have is Vampire Durkon, not Vampire High Priest of Hel, should it be cast on him.

Also, all this talk about Protection from Evil made me think that the best Enchanter is a True Neutral Enchanter. You can foil any other with correct Protection from [Alignment] spell but there isn't Protection from Neutrality. At least you can fell good about him being vulnerable to Holy Word, Blasphemy, Dictum and Word of Chaos all at once. Conversely, there is no Sentence of I Don't Care, so a True Neutral priest is missing out on a Level 7 spell.

thats still not technically true, Durkons body died and his soul left, but was trapped inside the vampire as part of the magic even if Durkons soul gets released theres no guarantee it would take over the body it may just finally go to whatever afterlife he deserves and he would need to be raised (in the hypothetical situation taht the HPoH is destroyed without destroying the body and Durkons soul is released)


There are plenty of spells that can disrupt scrying attempts. And you have exactly no information to base your last assertion off of at all. We have no idea what Hel's plan is, how long it will take once started, and what it requires, if anything.

V has tons of new people finding spells from the boat im sure hes more then capable of avoiding whatever bog standard protection spells Clerics have

and ya im sure the plan is for Durkon to cast a couple spells to completely devastate A GOD

you really think one high level cleric is enough to take down a GOD? if the plan is easy or simple why hasnt hel done it herself yet?


Ok yeah I probably shouldn't bring alignment into it.

Point is though that any lie will be easily discovered and make things worse in the long (and relatively short) run. How is a follower of Hel drawing on the memories of a follower of Thor supposed to pass himself off as a follower of Loki, and even if he could are we sure that it would really be any better for him if he did?

He certainly can't pass himself off as a follower of Thor for much longer though. First thing he would have to do in that case is to try to appease his patron, and the only way something even remotely like that could work is some god on god intervention from Hel. Reveal a lesser truth to hide a greater lie.

he could say that hes getting power from the negative energy plane now, or could say that since Malack Vampirized him Nergal is now supplying him with power

admitting to working for Hel is a death wish

[Keltest]

V has tons of new people finding spells from the boat im sure hes more then capable of avoiding whatever bog standard protection spells Clerics have

and ya im sure the plan is for Durkon to cast a couple spells to completely devastate A GOD

you really think one high level cleric is enough to take down a GOD? if the plan is easy or simple why hasnt hel done it herself yet?

Keep in mind, V doesn't think any of those spells work. Even if he learned about the Cloister effect, we have never seen him use any of the spells successfully (except the bird one, which has its own obvious flaws).

As for Hel's plan, obviously she hasn't implemented it sooner because she hasn't had any powerful followers up until now. You are also neglecting to take into account that Hel is also a god. Her plan could simply involve HPoH desecrating Thor's main temple and butchering his followers or something comparatively simple, so that he is weakened enough for her to beat him in a fight.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Assuming he started with 10 Charisma. He could easily only have 10 or 11 post-vampirising. I mean, unless he's one of those players who consider Charisma to be an enemy on par with a Balor/Tarrasque hybrid with class levels and DR25/, it would be a little stupid to make a cleric with more than -1 Charisma, but it's possible.

Wow, one of the few times I can be pedantic about the rules.

Charisma increased by 4, therefore the Ability modifier to all CHA skills is increased by 2.

Racial bonus of +8 to bluff now added.

Since Durkon didn't have any of these prior to his vampirization, his modifier to Bluff has increased by +10, no matter what his previous stats were.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

thats still not technically true, Durkons body died and his soul left, but was trapped inside the vampire as part of the magic even if Durkons soul gets released theres no guarantee it would take over the body it may just finally go to whatever afterlife he deserves and he would need to be raised (in the hypothetical situation taht the HPoH is destroyed without destroying the body and Durkons soul is released)
His soul never left, what happened was the spirit came in and possessed the body, trapping Durkon's soul. The body was definitely Durkon's to begin with, and that is what matters with regards to possession.

[Forikroder]

Keep in mind, V doesn't think any of those spells work. Even if he learned about the Cloister effect, we have never seen him use any of the spells successfully (except the bird one, which has its own obvious flaws).

As for Hel's plan, obviously she hasn't implemented it sooner because she hasn't had any powerful followers up until now. You are also neglecting to take into account that Hel is also a god. Her plan could simply involve HPoH desecrating Thor's main temple and butchering his followers or something comparatively simple, so that he is weakened enough for her to beat him in a fight.

so explain why she can fight Thor without the rest of the Gods kicking her ass?

besides if http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0137.html is to be taken seriously (as in Elan being informed) then it doesnt matter if she kills every single person who worships Thor since every norse god shares power

and "even if"? you think Haley learned about something as important as the Cloister and didnt bother mentioning it? im sure at this point V has completely memorized Xykons complete spell list and what every single one does so hed know that his spells failed because epic magic was blocking them


His soul never left, what happened was the spirit came in and possessed the body, trapping Durkon's soul. The body was definitely Durkon's to begin with, and that is what matters with regards to possession.

it WAS Durkons then it died and became durkulas hence the fangs and colour and need to consume blood its like casting protection from evil on Xykon to stop him from moving

[WindStruck]

Just watch. Thor is probably just drunk off his ass again having the party of his life.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

it WAS Durkons then it died and became durkulas hence the fangs and colour and need to consume blood its like casting protection from evil on Xykon to stop him from moving
The changes in the body do not make it no longer his body. They are a result of the vampirization, not an indication of who controls the body. Xykon's body was always his.

[Keltest]

so explain why she can fight Thor without the rest of the Gods kicking her ass?

besides if http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0137.html is to be taken seriously (as in Elan being informed) then it doesnt matter if she kills every single person who worships Thor since every norse god shares power

and "even if"? you think Haley learned about something as important as the Cloister and didnt bother mentioning it? im sure at this point V has completely memorized Xykons complete spell list and what every single one does so hed know that his spells failed because epic magic was blocking them



it WAS Durkons then it died and became durkulas hence the fangs and colour and need to consume blood its like casting protection from evil on Xykon to stop him from moving

Can you think of ANY scenario that would involve Hel trying to take over the Northern Pantheon without most of the other gods fighting back? So what else can a mortal do besides affect other mortals? And even if it doesn't physically weaken Thor and co.'s power, suddenly there are a lot fewer moderate level priests of the northern gods, especially Thor, the apparent patron of Dwarves. That weakens their power on the mortal plane, even if its indirectly (and most D&D universes have a cleric count for a lot more than a regular joe schmoe on the power-by-worship scale.)

[Forikroder]

The changes in the body do not make it no longer his body. They are a result of the vampirization, not an indication of who controls the body. Xykon's body was always his.

the point of vampirization is to turn the body into a vampire it would be rpetty worthless if thevampire didnt even own the body

Durkula is not possessing durkons body its Durkulas body Durkons just along for the ride


Can you think of ANY scenario that would involve Hel trying to take over the Northern Pantheon without most of the other gods fighting back? So what else can a mortal do besides affect other mortals? And even if it doesn't physically weaken Thor and co.'s power, suddenly there are a lot fewer moderate level priests of the northern gods, especially Thor, the apparent patron of Dwarves. That weakens their power on the mortal plane, even if its indirectly (and most D&D universes have a cleric count for a lot more than a regular joe schmoe on the power-by-worship scale.)

who said shes trying to take over? she just wants to bring the world to ruin and bring Thor to his knees, and that would requre alot more then just killing a few worshippers (especially the "bring the world to ruin part")

mortals can effect more then other mortals if they had, say a power source like the gate or enough time for a powerful enough ritual

[MikelaC1]

Great development. The charade can finally be exposed, and a weak plot line put to rest.

[Keltest]

the point of vampirization is to turn the body into a vampire it would be rpetty worthless if thevampire didnt even own the body

Durkula is not possessing durkons body its Durkulas body Durkons just along for the ride

[citation needed]

Well then I guess its pretty worthless then. You know, except for the undead status and all the stat bonuses and such.




who said shes trying to take over? she just wants to bring the world to ruin and bring Thor to his knees, and that would requre alot more then just killing a few worshippers (especially the "bring the world to ruin part")

mortals can effect more then other mortals if they had, say a power source like the gate or enough time for a powerful enough ritual

Its semantics. Whether shes trying to take over politically or destroy all and sundry, she wants to dominate Thor and the rest of the pantheon.

as for the gate, the only known ritual for affecting it has been created by a god (the Dark One) and still requires an arcane component. We have no information of anything of enough power to affect the divine beings besides the gates being in the northlands or Dwarven lands in particular. Pretty much the only things we know are there for sure are Dwarves and rocks. Probably some snow too, but we don't even know that for sure.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

the point of vampirization is to turn the body into a vampire it would be rpetty worthless if thevampire didnt even own the body
I don't see why that would be. The vampire posses the body, so it can use it to its advantage. It doesn't own the body, because it is possessing it from the previous controller.

[Forikroder]

Its semantics. Whether shes trying to take over politically or destroy all and sundry, she wants to dominate Thor and the rest of the pantheon.

[citation needed]
she only said that she wanted to bring Thor to his knees she said nothing about the rest of the Pantheon or wanting to leave Hell


as for the gate, the only known ritual for affecting it has been created by a god (the Dark One) and still requires an arcane component. We have no information of anything of enough power to affect the divine beings besides the gates being in the northlands or Dwarven lands in particular. Pretty much the only things we know are there for sure are Dwarves and rocks. Probably some snow too, but we don't even know that for sure.

it requires an arcane component because it needs to be moved, if someone was just drawing power from it that would be different

they could even just leech the magic used to seal the gate and not worry about the Snarl, destroying a gate causing a huge explosion if taht energy could be harnessed it could power alot of magic

or maybe release the snarl, let it destroy the world and place the blame on Thor


I don't see why that would be. The vampire posses the body, so it can use it to its advantage. It doesn't own the body, because it is possessing it from the previous controller.

the previous controller was dead, the body becomes a corpse, a new soul si put in the corpse and the old soul is trapped inside the corpse and then the corpse is necromancified into a vampire body with the new soul in charge

[Keltest]

[citation needed]
she only said that she wanted to bring Thor to his knees she said nothing about the rest of the Pantheon or wanting to leave Hell

so which is it? Does she or does she not have to go through the other gods to get Thor?



it requires an arcane component because it needs to be moved, if someone was just drawing power from it that would be different

they could even just leech the magic used to seal the gate and not worry about the Snarl, destroying a gate causing a huge explosion if taht energy could be harnessed it could power alot of magic

or maybe release the snarl, let it destroy the world and place the blame on Thor


Again, [citation needed]

It is not explained what part the arcane component has in the ritual, only that it is a necessary part to give the Dark One control over the snarl. We also don't know that it moves the gates.




the previous controller was dead, the body becomes a corpse, a new soul si put in the corpse and the old soul is trapped inside the corpse and then the corpse is necromancified into a vampire body with the new soul in charge

Sounds like possession to me. The old soul never left in the first place, unlike with Roy and his bone golem body, and yet it was still considered Roy's for the purposes of resurrection.

[Forikroder]

so which is it? Does she or does she not have to go through the other gods to get Thor?

she personally would, but that doesnt mean she has to if she had someone else who could cast soem sort of spell that would target Thor specifically then shes fine or perhaps someone who used to be a big Thor worshipper doing something terrible in the name of Thor that has the other gods attack Thor thinking he ordered it


Again, [citation needed]

It is not explained what part the arcane component has in the ritual, only that it is a necessary part to give the Dark One control over the snarl. We also don't know that it moves the gates.

its exactly explained when Tsukiko confronts Redclaok he explains quite clearly, the ARcane part mvoes the gate the divine part gives control of it to TDO


Sounds like possession to me. The old soul never left in the first place, unlike with Roy and his bone golem body, and yet it was still considered Roy's for the purposes of resurrection.

it may not have gone far, but Durkon died which mean his soul left it was jsut caught and held prisoner

its Durkulas Body

[gerryq]

The last panel or two surprised me - I had figured out that the storm was sent by a Dwarven god, but I assumed it was sent by Hel!

[Cicciograna]

To answer Ciccio's question: 'I can't hold a candle to X' means 'I'm nowhere near X in terms of skill', so he's taking an idiom literally.


Ah, thank you, now it's clear.

[Keltest]

she personally would, but that doesnt mean she has to if she had someone else who could cast soem sort of spell that would target Thor specifically then shes fine or perhaps someone who used to be a big Thor worshipper doing something terrible in the name of Thor that has the other gods attack Thor thinking he ordered it Well gee, its a shame that you established that he wasn't going to do that then. Unless you mean that he CAN just cast a couple spells to target Thor so that Hel can clean him up?


its exactly explained when Tsukiko confronts Redclaok he explains quite clearly, the ARcane part mvoes the gate the divine part gives control of it to TDO
...

...

point.:smallannoyed:



it may not have gone far, but Durkon died which mean his soul left it was jsut caught and held prisoner

its Durkulas Body

Erm, where is the evidence Durkon's soul left it?

[Angelalex242]

Hel probably can't take Thor 1 v 1 anyway. Thor is the greatest warrior of the entire Norse Pantheon. She's gotta do a whole lot of trickery to stand a chance.

[Bitzer]

I cannot wait to see Durkula talk his way out of this one.

[Forikroder]

Well gee, its a shame that you established that he wasn't going to do that then. Unless you mean that he CAN just cast a couple spells to target Thor so that Hel can clean him up?

literally the first thing i said was

if Hels plan is strong enough to take down Thor then he needs either a gate or a long period of time in order to pull it off and he needs the order for either of them


Erm, where is the evidence Durkon's soul left it?

thats what happens when you die, but it didnt go far because the vampire magic trapped it

[Sith_Happens]

This seems pretty easy for Durkula to "explain," if you ask me.

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/DurkonVampire_zps6711c6b8.png: "What? This in't exactly unexpected given me current un-living state. Even if I were still within a step o' Thor's alignment, I had to change me domains to Destruction an' Evil and at our level he dinnae take that sort o' thing lying down. Now if ye can keep this boat in th' air for another twenty minutes we can find out if he's mad enough to counter a Control Weather spell."

[malloyd]

Also, apparently Adad is the Mesopotamian weather god. Neat!

Not strictly Mesopotamian, he's Semetic. The Akkadians brought him along when they invaded. He's Ba'al Hadad in ancient Israel.

[Keltest]

literally the first thing i said was



thats what happens when you die, but it didnt go far because the vampire magic trapped it

So when you said This:


so explain why she can fight Thor without the rest of the Gods kicking her ass?

you didn't really think the question needed answering? Furthermore, you neglected to inform us why we should gave that statement any credit? Why cant he do something that would seriously affect Thor in a shorter period of time?

As for the body, youre suggesting that the soul, which is a non-physical entity, managed to get somewhere between Celestia and the mortal plane, but was then yanked back to its body by the vampire spirit before it could reach Celestia... and this somehow means that the vampire spirit is now the proper owner of the body because... reasons?

[Forikroder]

So when you said This:



you didn't really think the question needed answering? Furthermore, you neglected to inform us why we should gave that statement any credit? Why cant he do something that would seriously affect Thor in a shorter period of time?

As for the body, youre suggesting that the soul, which is a non-physical entity, managed to get somewhere between Celestia and the mortal plane, but was then yanked back to its body by the vampire spirit before it could reach Celestia... and this somehow means that the vampire spirit is now the proper owner of the body because... reasons?

because bodies are first come first serve, same reason they had to destroy the bone golem before ressurecting Roy, Durkon died it became not his body anymore, Durkula moved in it became his body end of story

Durkon is a non-epic spellcaster, regardless of being a high level one without access to epic level magic he cannot fight Thor
Hel has a plan that both brings the world to ruin and brings Thor to his knees and Durkula is the key to that, since hes a spellcaster im going out on a limb and assume that it has soemthing to do with him casting spells

the power of a spell can be quite easily mapped based on 3 criteria, level, time and material component

a spell that requires no time (something that can be cast in one round) and requires no (worthwile to remember) material component is dependant on level to be strong, Durkon is not high level enough for this type of spell to do anything worth mentioning

therefore for Durkon to cast a spell that would cause the world to come to ruin and bring Thor to his knees he either A) needs to spend a long time casting B) use an expensive material component (like a gate) or C) some combination of the 2

THEREFORE if Durkon leaves now and has the order chase him theres no way in hell hes going to pull of Hels plan

[Peelee]

Is it just me, or does that ship mechanic look like Kaylee Frye?

This fact made me far more excited than I should be right now.

I think she's just bundled up because the engines had quite a bit of cold blasted at them. It's probably freezing in the engine room.


i think V is more then aquantanted with Durkon enough to easily scry him Durkon can run as much as he wants but it would be impossible for him to hide from the order

Why do you think the Order would chase Durkon? To the best of their knowledge, Xykon is trying to do something with a god-killing abomination that destroys souls. What makes the vampire a bigger issue? Why would they abandon their world-saving quest because hey, that villain is escaping over there?

EDIT:
if Durkon leaves now and has the order chase him theres no way in hell hes going to pull of Hels plan
Oh? How much time does his plan require? How much of the Order does he need to pull it off?

[Keltest]

because bodies are first come first serve, same reason they had to destroy the bone golem before ressurecting Roy, Durkon died it became not his body anymore, Durkula moved in it became his body end of story

That would imply that casting resurrection on it would resurrect the Vampire. And yet, the Bone Golem never got resurrected.


Durkon is a non-epic spellcaster, regardless of being a high level one without access to epic level magic he cannot fight Thor
Hel has a plan that both brings the world to ruin and brings Thor to his knees and Durkula is the key to that, since hes a spellcaster im going out on a limb and assume that it has soemthing to do with him casting spells

the power of a spell can be quite easily mapped based on 3 criteria, level, time and material component

a spell that requires no time (something that can be cast in one round) and requires no (worthwile to remember) material component is dependant on level to be strong, Durkon is not high level enough for this type of spell to do anything worth mentioning

and why not? It could be on a scroll if necessary, or in an item like the cloister headband. And you even admit that youre assuming that she needs Durkon to specifically cast a spell, which could very well not be the case.


therefore for Durkon to cast a spell that would cause the world to come to ruin and bring Thor to his knees he either A) needs to spend a long time casting B) use an expensive material component (like a gate) or C) some combination of the 2

THEREFORE if Durkon leaves now and has the order chase him theres no way in hell hes going to pull of Hels plan Which, again, doesn't address that as a vampire cleric, Durkon is well equipped to throw off immediate pursuit, or that the Order has bigger fish to fry.

[DaggerPen]

Awesome!

Only thing I can't understand, what's the deal with Belkar's reference to the rope? Is "burn the rope" some sort of slang, a joke or something?
Please do note that I'm not a native English speaker.

In addition to the stuff already explained, there's a "You Have to Burn the Rope" game (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CDEQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.newgrounds.com%2Fportal%2Fvie w%2F432872&ei=F316U6TSMa-M7Ab574CoBQ&usg=AFQjCNHje3_liwSJwg1eVieed27eCuCi_g&bvm=bv.66917471,d.ZGU) - well, "game" - that was going around a while ago that had a cool song at the end and gets referenced sometimes.

Also, in retrospect, it shouldn't be so surprising that Thor actually noticed. He might be a bit scattered, but we know he takes a very personal interest (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html) in the fate of his worshippers' souls (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0874.html). Hel may have legitimate domain over dwarven undead, but that doesn't mean that Thor is likely to take the loss of a high-level cleric to one of Hel's agents lying down, especially when he doesn't even get his soul.

[Angelalex242]

He could still get staked on Belkar's full attack. Unlike the rest of the order, Belkar's not inclined to wait around to give him a chance to explain himself.

[Sylthia]

I almost expected Elan to say something dramatic was about to happen since a storm started.

[Forikroder]

Why do you think the Order would chase Durkon? To the best of their knowledge, Xykon is trying to do something with a god-killing abomination that destroys souls. What makes the vampire a bigger issue? Why would they abandon their world-saving quest because hey, that villain is escaping over there?

"ya lets go fight the enemy without our primary support caster and leave our best friend to suffer a terrible fate as an evil spirit forces his body to massacre those he love"

That would imply that casting resurrection on it would resurrect the Vampire. And yet, the Bone Golem never got resurrected.

because they werent ressurecting the bone golem they were ressurecting Roy

which raises an interesting question, if Malacks body had been recovered could they have ressurected him?


and why not? It could be on a scroll if necessary, or in an item like the cloister headband. And you even admit that youre assuming that she needs Durkon to specifically cast a spell, which could very well not be the case.

okay so explain how hell destroys the world and brings a god to his knees without casting a spell


Which, again, doesn't address that as a vampire cleric, Durkon is well equipped to throw off immediate pursuit, or that the Order has bigger fish to fry.

1. no hes not well equipped to throw off pursuit hes actually less equiped to throw off pursuit on account being a vampire
2. they need Durkon to fry the fish

[Shekinah]

When in doubt, blame the dwarf.

[Peelee]

because they werent ressurecting the bone golem they were ressurecting Roy

which raises an interesting question, if Malacks body had been recovered could they have ressurected him?


okay so explain how hell destroys the world and brings a god to his knees without casting a spell



1. no hes not well equipped to throw off pursuit hes actually less equiped to throw off pursuit on account being a vampire
2. they need Durkon to fry the fish

Why did you quote me when you only had one marginally relevant answer? More specifically, why do they need Durkon to "fry the fish?" Assume he attempts to escape. Why bother to chase after him? He is clearly an unwilling participant, and as soon as you need him to do something, he can either not do it or make a break for it again. The Order would have to devote more resources just to keep him from escaping, and would still not have much control over him.

Chasing Durkon in the event he runs is, based on all your arguments, completely ridiculous.

[Keltest]

because they werent ressurecting the bone golem they were ressurecting Roy

The spell contains no specification for the target outside of a piece of their body. If you hand someone a random piece of bone and tell them to cast resurrection, you cant resurrect your dead cat that way.


which raises an interesting question, if Malacks body had been recovered could they have ressurected him?

Durkon thought so.



okay so explain how hell destroys the world and brings a god to his knees without casting a spell

She destroys an artifact of Thor's that contains some of his power. She has HPoH kill off a ton of his followers and clerics. She has him use some artifact to instigate an apocalypse of some sort. There are plenty of ways that HPoH can cause problems for Thor without just casting a spell that we have at this point not gotten any indication that HPoH knows or can get possession of, with unknown effects.




1. no hes not well equipped to throw off pursuit hes actually less equiped to throw off pursuit on account being a vampire
2. they need Durkon to fry the fish

Vampires can do things like turn into a cloud of gas. At the very least he can literally slip through cracks, not to mention he can charm like half the party into distracting the other half.

And no, they don't need Durkon. They don't even need a cleric, although a healer would be beneficial.

[choken1]

Wow, people do not give Thor enough credit. When someone takes what is his, he is not pleased. Can't believe I didn't see this coming.
You should hear about the time when somebody took his hammer.

(And yes, that story does actually exist. Let's just say that deaths, mutilation and cross dressing is involved.)

[Keltest]

You should hear about the time when somebody took his hammer.

(And yes, that story does actually exist. Let's just say that deaths, mutilation and cross dressing is involved.)

Poor giants...

Can I sig that?

[PsyBomb]

It should be noted that the prophecy of Durkon returning home posthumously is now technically fulfilled... but the one about him bringing ruin to the Dwarven Lands is not yet.

That second one can go down any number of ways, ranging from literal (Durkula destroying stuff under a Hel's Power) to figurative (he brought the Order there, leading to stuff) to technical (the thunder strike caused the ruin of the Mechane while over Dwarven Lands).

[Nevereatcars]

Durkula's in check now; his three options are to move himself out of danger, kill everything that's threatening him, or place a pawn in the way. Wonder what he'll choose?

[CaDzilla]

HPoH: What, ye forgot? Thor's nuts! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0948.html) He probably be drunk on half n'ocean o'ale

[Codex]

Alright Hel Spawn. Let's see what you've got.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

the previous controller was dead, the body becomes a corpse, a new soul si put in the corpse and the old soul is trapped inside the corpse and then the corpse is necromancified into a vampire body with the new soul in charge

Why, thank you for restating what I said. Since you still have not shown that Durkon's soul ever left, I'm not sure why you bothered responding. In fact, we have evidence from SoD that souls don't leave right away, otherwise Lirian and Dorukan's souls would not have come from their bodies when Xykon casted Soul Bind.

[Forikroder]

Why, thank you for restating what I said. Since you still have not shown that Durkon's soul ever left, I'm not sure why you bothered responding. In fact, we have evidence from SoD that souls don't leave right away, otherwise Lirian and Dorukan's souls would not have come from their bodies when Xykon casted Soul Bind.
ya its possible to use magic to trap a soul, like what the vampire magic did but if the soul never left the body it couldnt be trapped, you cant walk up to someone and soulbind and it work, you have to kill them so the soul is free and only then can you bind the soul


Why did you quote me when you only had one marginally relevant answer? More specifically, why do they need Durkon to "fry the fish?" Assume he attempts to escape. Why bother to chase after him? He is clearly an unwilling participant, and as soon as you need him to do something, he can either not do it or make a break for it again. The Order would have to devote more resources just to keep him from escaping, and would still not have much control over him.

Chasing Durkon in the event he runs is, based on all your arguments, completely ridiculous.

they need a healer, they need a divine spellcaster, they need the firepower

tehy know Durkon would never possibly run in a situation like this, it literally goes agaisnt every Durkon stands for, so if he runs then they know its not durkon and so they hunt it down, kill it then ressurect Durkon and continue there quest


Durkon thought so.

Durkon thought the shaman Malack could be ressurected not the vampire malack


The spell contains no specification for the target outside of a piece of their body. If you hand someone a random piece of bone and tell them to cast resurrection, you cant resurrect your dead cat that way.

are you implying that the DnD 3.5 rules are less then exhaustingly detailed?

and no the spell does not go into nearly that much detail but it is implyed that you do need to specify who you are ressurecting in addition to having a piece of them, or jsut specifify in true ressurection


She destroys an artifact of Thor's that contains some of his power. She has HPoH kill off a ton of his followers and clerics. She has him use some artifact to instigate an apocalypse of some sort. There are plenty of ways that HPoH can cause problems for Thor without just casting a spell that we have at this point not gotten any indication that HPoH knows or can get possession of, with unknown effects.

and Thor just has some achilles heel/doomsday device lieing around unguarded taht can easily be used?


Vampires can do things like turn into a cloud of gas. At the very least he can literally slip through cracks, not to mention he can charm like half the party into distracting the other half.

And no, they don't need Durkon. They don't even need a cleric, although a healer would be beneficial.

he may be able to fly but not very fast, hes weak to sunlight if V hits him with a dispel magic its game over right there he cant cross running water and he doesnt have a very high charisma so hes not going to be able to charm more then MAYBE belkar

V can easily keep pace with Durkon and attack him while doing so

and there is no way there taking out team evil with only one spellcaster and 3 fighters even with Durkon the most likely outcome is they all die

[Keltest]

ya its possible to use magic to trap a soul, like what the vampire magic did but if the soul never left the body it couldnt be trapped, you cant walk up to someone and soulbind and it work, you have to kill them so the soul is free and only then can you bind the soul

we can see the souls coming from their bodies.




they need a healer, they need a divine spellcaster, they need the firepower

again, they don't "need" anything of the sort. It would be beneficial to have, but they don't have any plans that explicitly rely on having a cleric around.


tehy know Durkon would never possibly run in a situation like this, it literally goes agaisnt every Durkon stands for, so if he runs then they know its not durkon and so they hunt it down, kill it then ressurect Durkon and continue there quest

Again, they have a deadline. Why would they waste their time going after Durkon when they can just grab another cleric?



Durkon thought the shaman Malack could be ressurected not the vampire malack

as far as Durkon was aware, they were the same person




are you implying that the DnD 3.5 rules are less then exhaustingly detailed?

and no the spell does not go into nearly that much detail but it is implyed that you do need to specify who you are ressurecting in addition to having a piece of them, or jsut specifify in true resurrection

so then why can you hand a cleric some remains of some person he has never known? The spell does not include an indication that you must identify the soul you want to resurrect, because it is not necessary.




and Thor just has some achilles heel/doomsday device lieing around unguarded taht can easily be used?

Unguarded except by a city of dwarves and the high priests of himself and Odin.




he may be able to fly but not very fast, hes weak to sunlight if V hits him with a dispel magic its game over right there he cant cross running water and he doesnt have a very high charisma so hes not going to be able to charm more then MAYBE belkar
Its a domination, not a charm. V at least has a fairly weak will save.


V can easily keep pace with Durkon and attack him while doing so

and there is no way there taking out team evil with only one spellcaster and 3 fighters even with Durkon the most likely outcome is they all die

Durkon can simply toss a hold person or something at V. Heck, if he got into melee range, he could nearly 1 hit KO V with a spontaneous harm spell.

As for Team Evil, they have a handful of paladins who like them, as I recall.

[MikelaC1]

Its a domination, not a charm. V at least has a fairly weak will save.

V, as a pure caster, likely has the best will save of the group.

[Forikroder]

we can see the souls coming from their bodies.

which changes literally nothing about anything i said


again, they don't "need" anything of the sort. It would be beneficial to have, but they don't have any plans that explicitly rely on having a cleric around.

really? im pretty sure "dont die" is part of there plans and they need Durkon to keep them alive


Again, they have a deadline. Why would they waste their time going after Durkon when they can just grab another cleric?

sure just stroll into a bar and ask for an 18th level cleric to help them out

and were ignoring the part WHERE ROY LEAVES HIS BEST FRIEND DEAD AND A MONSTER INHABITING HIS BODY


so then why can you hand a cleric some remains of some person he has never known? The spell does not include an indication that you must identify the soul you want to resurrect, because it is not necessary.

again 3.5 rules are not nearly that detailed makes for bad gameplay


Unguarded except by a city of dwarves and the high priests of himself and Odin.

and Durkon is just going to solo an entire city of dwarves because he secretly gained 21 levels in sorcerer when noone was looking?

Xykon had trouble killing a throne room of paladins and Durkon is supposed to kill a city of dwarves?


Its a domination, not a charm. V at least has a fairly weak will save.

and Durkon has a fairly weak charisma

and V has at least +10 to will save while Durkon has +2 at best to the DC guess who wins that test


Durkon can simply toss a hold person or something at V. Heck, if he got into melee range, he could nearly 1 hit KO V with a spontaneous harm spell.

As for Team Evil, they have a handful of paladins who like them, as I recall.

hed have to get in melee range to hold V, which wouldnt be easy Durkon cannot fight his way off that boat and unless he does something sneaky he cant run off

and if he was so willing to ditch the order why rejoin them in the first place?

[Keltest]

V, as a pure caster, likely has the best will save of the group.

V is an Int caster. Wisdom is what aids will saves.

[Angelalex242]

Elan has a surprisingly good will save, being a bard most of his career.

[MikelaC1]

V is an Int caster. Wisdom is what aids will saves.

Casters of any kind have the best Will saves. We have seen nothing to suggest that V has a low WIS as well.

[Forikroder]

V is an Int caster. Wisdom is what aids will saves.

even if he only has +1 wisdom that still gives him +11 to his will save roy would need like 22 wisdom to have the same will save

[Keltest]

which changes literally nothing about anything i said

If that's the case, then nothing you said has any significance. Youre grasping at straws to justify your straws.


really? im pretty sure "dont die" is part of there plans and they need Durkon to keep them alive

They don't need Durkon specifically. Nearly any divine caster will do.


sure just stroll into a bar and ask for an 18th level cleric to help them out
Its how the Order formed in the first place.


and were ignoring the part WHERE ROY LEAVES HIS BEST FRIEND DEAD AND A MONSTER INHABITING HIS BODY What part of "Deadline" and "Bigger fish to fry" has been unclear.




again 3.5 rules are not nearly that detailed makes for bad gameplay Which doesn't change the fact that there is absolutely no support in the RaW or in the story for your claim.


and Durkon is just going to solo an entire city of dwarves because he secretly gained 21 levels in sorcerer when noone was looking? He can start by making a vampire here or there. Or heck, maybe he can find a nice gas cavern and chuck a torch in it.


Xykon had trouble killing a throne room of paladins and Durkon is supposed to kill a city of dwarves? Xykon had no trouble at all. In fact, he didn't have to cast a single spell during that fight to deal with the paladins. He prepared one beforehand.


and Durkon has a fairly weak charisma

and V has at least +10 to will save while Durkon has +2 at best to the DC guess who wins that test

Where are you getting that V has +10 to will saves? Nevermind, its from his level.


hed have to get in melee range to hold V, which wouldnt be easy Durkon cannot fight his way off that boat and unless he does something sneaky he cant run off he doesn't need to hold V, just touch him.


and if he was so willing to ditch the order why rejoin them in the first place?

an easy ride across the ocean.

[Keltest]

Casters of any kind have the best Will saves. We have seen nothing to suggest that V has a low WIS as well.

The Class and Level Geekery thread pins it around 10-11, and even if you don't take it as set in stone fact, they do pretty good ballpark estimates assuming that no other info is available.

[zimmerwald1915]

Where are you getting that V has +10 to will saves?
She'd get as much from having 16 Wizard levels. The only way she'd have a lower bonus to Will saves would be if she had a Wisdom penalty.

[Forikroder]

They don't need Durkon specifically. Nearly any divine caster will do.

no not any divine caster will od they need a strong one


Its how the Order formed in the first place.

a mid level party.

finding a mid level cleric would be easy and useless they need one who can do things


What part of "Deadline" and "Bigger fish to fry" has been unclear.

what part of there behaviour up till this point is unclear? they need Durkons help and there too good to allow someone (who roy considers his brother) to suffer like that theres every reason to spend a day or two saving Durkon


He can start by making a vampire here or there. Or heck, maybe he can find a nice gas cavern and chuck a torch in it.

the massive quantity of time neccesary for him to turn enough vampires in order to overthrow the dwarves is so massive i cant take this as a serious plan


Xykon had no trouble at all. In fact, he didn't have to cast a single spell during that fight to deal with the paladins. He prepared one beforehand.

he does actually cast several spells during the fight, you can see them comeing from off panel

and he was pretty beat up afterwards


Where are you getting that V has +10 to will saves?

are you sure that your at all familiar with 3.5 rules?


he doesn't need to hold V, just touch him.

by "hed have to get in melee range to hold V" i meant "hed ahve to get within touch range in order to cast the spell hold person on V" which should ahve pretty obvious


an easy ride across the ocean.

he didnt know about the ride when he joined, he could ahve joined Nale and had Z teleport them all to dwarven lands, trick nale into helping him finish Hel's plan

[Keltest]

no not any divine caster will od they need a strong one

Its assumed that the caster will be around their level.




a mid level party.

finding a mid level cleric would be easy and useless they need one who can do things Youre making an awful lot of assumptions here. You have no idea about the general availability of friendly clerics who would be willing to help either in the Sapphire Guard or in the Dwarven Lands.



what part of there behaviour up till this point is unclear? they need Durkons help and there too good to allow someone (who roy considers his brother) to suffer like that theres every reason to spend a day or two saving Durkon I really don't care what theyre inclined to do. When weighing Durkon, who isn't going anywhere, against the gate, which is, the gate inevitably wins out unless you can immediately deal with Durkon.



the massive quantity of time neccesary for him to turn enough vampires in order to overthrow the dwarves is so massive i cant take this as a serious plan He doesn't need to overthrow the city with an army. Assassinate a few important leaders, throw the city into chaos, dominate some soldiers, pit them against each other, boom.




he does actually cast several spells during the fight, you can see them comeing from off panel

and he was pretty beat up afterwards Are you considering the Ghost Martyrs as part of the fight? Because they very specifically had immunity to a large number of his spells.




are you sure that your at all familiar with 3.5 rules? No, and I have never pretended to be. But when someone says that someone gets a massive bonus to saves out of nowhere, you tend to question that sort of information.




by "hed have to get in melee range to hold V" i meant "hed ahve to get within touch range in order to cast the spell hold person on V" which should ahve pretty obvious grappling is a very real thing in D&D. There are other things you could have easily meant, even in context.




he didnt know about the ride when he joined
Again, assuming. Even if he didn't know about the Machine specifically, its a lot easier for a vampire to get a ride if someone is vouching for him, and Durkon (and therefore HPoH) knew that they were heading north next.

[ORione]

By this level, class determines saves much more than abilities do. As a wizard, V has a better will save than Roy, Haley, or Belkar. Clerics and bards also get good will saves, so V would have the second or third best (depending on whether they or Elan had more wisdom - Durkon certainly has more than them).

Not that this would likely affect the plot, which is run more on drama and Rich's goals than D&D mechanics, but if we're arguing will saves, that's how it would be.

And 10 or 11 wisdom isn't good, but it's not bad either. If that's V's wisdom, then V would have an average will save for their class, i.e. an overall good one.

[zimmerwald1915]

Youre making an awful lot of assumptions here. You have no idea about the general availability of friendly clerics who would be willing to help either in the Sapphire Guard or in the Dwarven Lands.
In this case, Forikroder happens to be right. The truth is, in an average D&D world, you can walk into a tavern and find 2-5 adventurers under 5th level—people who are just starting their career and looking for any lead they can get—and then it gets harder the higher level you want. No wizard of Vaarsuvius' levelcleric of Durkon's level hangs out in a tavern waiting to be hired by a kingdom to go rough up the baron next door, thoughrandom band of adventurers with a cheesy name. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=16051820&postcount=41) If they did, Nale and Sabine wouldn't have had to settle for Pompey back when the Order and Guild were level 12 or so.


By this level, class determines saves much more than abilities do. As a wizard, V has a better will save than Roy, Haley, or Belkar. Clerics and bards also get good will saves, so V would have the second or third best (depending on whether they or Elan had more wisdom - Durkon certainly has more than them).
For what it's worth, the Order's Will save bonuses probably sort into something like this:

Durkon>Vaarsuvius>Roy/Elan>Roy/Elan>Haley>Belkar

[Keltest]

In this case, Forikroder happens to be right. The truth is, in an average D&D world, you can walk into a tavern and find 2-5 adventurers under 5th level—people who are just starting their career and looking for any lead they can get—and then it gets harder the higher level you want. No wizard of Vaarsuvius' levelcleric of Durkon's level hangs out in a tavern waiting to be hired by a kingdom to go rough up the baron next door, thoughrandom band of adventurers with a cheesy name. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=16051820&postcount=41) If they did, Nale and Sabine wouldn't have had to settle for Pompey back when the Order and Guild were level 12 or so.

Im fully aware of the averages, but the Giant has never cared about that when the plot would suffer for following them. If the plot demands that there be another healer available while Durkon is in the shop, then there will be one.

[zimmerwald1915]

Im fully aware of the averages, but the Giant has never cared about that when the plot would suffer for following them. If the plot demands that there be another healer available while Durkon is in the shop, then there will be one.
Why should the Giant want to offer his characters an easy solution to a problem? Especially when he's on record as saying that the value of the story (whether it be comedy, as in the example cited, or drama) comes from their confronting difficult problems? (http://www.giantitp.com/FAQ.html#faq7)

[Forikroder]

Youre making an awful lot of assumptions here. You have no idea about the general availability of friendly clerics who would be willing to help either in the Sapphire Guard or in the Dwarven Lands.

well we know theres none in the Sapphire gaurd or Hinjo would ahve had them helping a loooooong time ago

likely there is one or two high level clerics in the dwarven lands, but its extremely unlikely that theyd be willing to drop there own lives to go help a party, i imagine they have partys asking them to help them save the world every other week

it is an infinitely better option to chase Durkula and get durkon back then waste more time detouring to dwarven towns looking for a replacement


I really don't care what theyre inclined to do. When weighing Durkon, who isn't going anywhere, against the gate, which is, the gate inevitably wins out unless you can immediately deal with Durkon.

which they can, and Durkula is going somewhere (in the hypothetical situation taht he bails out and runs for it to finish hels plan which is the scenario weve been discussing)


He doesn't need to overthrow the city with an army. Assassinate a few important leaders, throw the city into chaos, dominate some soldiers, pit them against each other, boom.

1. the important leaders would be the high level priests he cant beat and 2) dominating a few soldiers isnt going to be near enough to do lasting damage much less cause chaos


Are you considering the Ghost Martyrs as part of the fight? Because they very specifically had immunity to a large number of his spells.

the ghost martyrs are too different to be compared to dwarven fighters on account of there homebrewed existance so no i wasnt


No, and I have never pretended to be. But when someone says that someone gets a massive bonus to saves out of nowhere, you tend to question that sort of information.

well considering most of your arguments is based around splitting hairs on the wording of rules id say you are pretending to

and not even knowing that every time a character levels they get a bonus to saves based on what classe level they gained is kinda ridiculous when your in such a rules heavy argument


grappling is a very real thing in D&D. There are other things you could have easily meant, even in context.

we were talking about hold person, why would i switch to such a pointless maneuver as grappling?


Again, assuming. Even if he didn't know about the Machine specifically, its a lot easier for a vampire to get a ride if someone is vouching for him, and Durkon (and therefore HPoH) knew that they were heading north next.

hes capable of flying under his own power, and he gave up a chance to get Z to teleport him there

[Jaxzan Proditor]

ya its possible to use magic to trap a soul, like what the vampire magic did but if the soul never left the body it couldnt be trapped, you cant walk up to someone and soulbind and it work, you have to kill them so the soul is free and only then can you bind the soul.

Soul Bind works only on newly dead bodies, so yes you cannot Soul Bind the living. This doesn't mean that the soul actually leaves the body at time of death (as pointed out earlier), nor does it suddenly make the spirit supplanting the soul the rightful owner of the body.

[Theory]

I interpreted it a different way. HPoH asked why Durkon had recently started being so free with letting him rummage through his memories, but since the storm began Durkon manipulated HPoH into thinking that he could best fool the order by making some very loud references to Thor.

Durkon did this because sooner or later someone would connect the storm to Thor and everybody on the Mechane would connect that to "Durkon"

All provided that is how the mental interactions work. Did Durkon rifle through his library of index cards to find exactly that memory, or did he find the feeling he wanted (or was compelled) to share and end up there?

How exact is your control of your memory? Mine has the habit of answering more than what it is asked, and depending on the tune or smell, something completely different.

[Keltest]

well we know theres none in the Sapphire gaurd or Hinjo would ahve had them helping a loooooong time ago

Helping doing what? Healing the Order? They had Durkon when they split with the Guard.


likely there is one or two high level clerics in the dwarven lands, but its extremely unlikely that theyd be willing to drop there own lives to go help a party, i imagine they have partys asking them to help them save the world every other week Yeah, but when was the last time it was so close to home?


it is an infinitely better option to chase Durkula and get durkon back then waste more time detouring to dwarven towns looking for a replacement That depends entirely on how long it would take to find one, and how much Durkon doesn't want to be found.



which they can, and Durkula is going somewhere (in the hypothetical situation taht he bails out and runs for it to finish hels plan which is the scenario weve been discussing) I don't mean hes LITERALLY moving, I mean that in the long run, he isn't going to have anything happen to him that would permanently ruin their chances of getting Durkon back. Certainly not intentionally, anyway.



1. the important leaders would be the high level priests he cant beat and 2) dominating a few soldiers isnt going to be near enough to do lasting damage much less cause chaos Durkon was able to dominate a large enough number of soldiers in the battle in the crater to keep the order alive against a literal army. Its going to be more than "A few soldiers"



the ghost martyrs are too different to be compared to dwarven fighters on account of there homebrewed existance so no i wasn't In which case the amount of effort Xykon spend on dealing with the paladins was still trivial for him. He was "a little beat up" because of those 3 holy individuals who WERENT affected by the symbol of insanity. One of whom he promptly killed in one hit.




well considering most of your arguments is based around splitting hairs on the wording of rules id say you are pretending to

Splitting hairs implies that im rules lawyering or otherwise relying on interpretation. Youre flat out making things up that aren't in the rules anywhere, and im calling you on it.


and not even knowing that every time a character levels they get a bonus to saves based on what classe level they gained is kinda ridiculous when your in such a rules heavy argument My knowledge of spell descriptions and effects is somewhat stronger than my knowledge of character benefits.



we were talking about hold person, why would i switch to such a pointless maneuver as grappling? Heck if I know, it makes about as much sense as the idea that someone needs to specify the soul theyre trying to retrieve when resurrecting a body.



hes capable of flying under his own power, and he gave up a chance to get Z to teleport him there The speed at which he could fly, either as a bat or in gas form, is pitiful compared to that of a (air)ship. And he would have to wait 3 days for Z to revive as a vampire, and that's assuming that Nale would have just let HPoH take the rounds needed to fully drain Z of blood.

[Shining Wrath]

V is an Int caster. Wisdom is what aids will saves.

But it still has a fast progression, +2 at first level. If V is level 15 vir bonus is 9 for wizard levels plus whatever help Wisdom gives.

[Angelalex242]

The Ghosts Martyrs of the Sapphire Guard are NOT homebrew. They're Book of Exalted Deeds 'Deathless.' Specifically, the stats thread calls Lord Soon an Epic Level Sacred Watcher. They may or may not have had levels in the 'Risen Martyr' prestige class.

Which has nothing to do with Durkula getting his hind end busted by no less a source then the Mighty Thor himself.

[Forikroder]

Soul Bind works only on newly dead bodies, so yes you cannot Soul Bind the living. This doesn't mean that the soul actually leaves the body at time of death (as pointed out earlier), nor does it suddenly make the spirit supplanting the soul the rightful owner of the body.

right has nothing to do with it, its Durkulas body wether tahts "right" or not


Helping doing what? Healing the Order? They had Durkon when they split with the Guard.

high level clerics can do alot more then heal, like fight off trolls, orcs, and demons for instance

or be sent off to investigate gates


Yeah, but when was the last time it was so close to home?

doesnt matter


That depends entirely on how long it would take to find one, and how much Durkon doesn't want to be found.

no matter where Durkon is V can easily find him, but they have no leads on any other high level non-goblin clerics


I don't mean hes LITERALLY moving, I mean that in the long run, he isn't going to have anything happen to him that would permanently ruin their chances of getting Durkon back. Certainly not intentionally, anyway.

hes a vampire, if hes not killed carefully his ashes scatter and hes gone forever


Durkon was able to dominate a large enough number of soldiers in the battle in the crater to keep the order alive against a literal army. Its going to be more than "A few soldiers"

he couldnt dominate them faster thent they were being killed and thats with his flanks being covered, alone he wouldnt stand a chance so hed have to hunt down small patrols and turn them


Splitting hairs implies that im rules lawyering or otherwise relying on interpretation. Youre flat out making things up that aren't in the rules anywhere, and im calling you on it.

like when?


The speed at which he could fly, either as a bat or in gas form, is pitiful compared to that of a (air)ship. And he would have to wait 3 days for Z to revive as a vampire, and that's assuming that Nale would have just let HPoH take the rounds needed to fully drain Z of blood.

Nale offered him a job, he could have accepted he knew there next target was near dwarven lands he could have joined them, scored a teleport then killed them when they arrived and flew the rest of the way

[Keltest]

right has nothing to do with it, its Durkulas body wether tahts "right" or not Why? You need to establish that. Just because you say something doesn't make it true.


high level clerics can do alot more then heal, like fight off trolls, orcs, and demons for instance

or be sent off to investigate gates

Gee, if only they had some high level fighters to do that. Oh wait.




doesnt matter

Sure it does. Anyone is going to be more likely to react if their city is the first to suffer the fallout from failure.



no matter where Durkon is V can easily find him, but they have no leads on any other high level non-goblin clerics And, again, there are anti-scrying measures that HPoH can implement. he may not have the epic cloister spell like Xykon, but that isn't the only one that can fluster magical detection.




hes a vampire, if hes not killed carefully his ashes scatter and hes gone forever

Carefully how? The methods for killing vampires vary in whether they leave remains, and the only one we know for sure that disintegrated the vampire is sunlight. Presumably he will be smarter than to die to that.


he couldnt dominate them faster thent they were being killed and thats with his flanks being covered, alone he wouldnt stand a chance so hed have to hunt down small patrols and turn them and? So he does that. It takes him a couple hours to get half the guard under his control.




like when?

Like when you arbitrarily decided a resurrect spell also needed to specify the soul returning to the body, even though they've only ever been inhabited by one soul. Even vampires don't have a new soul in them.



Nale offered him a job, he could have accepted he knew there next target was near dwarven lands he could have joined them, scored a teleport then killed them when they arrived and flew the rest of the way
You mean, side with the person who literally JUST staked a vampire for the sake of it?


Also note. You guys know that saying about arguing with idiots? I have a new one: Never argue with Forikroder, or he'll distract you with so many tangents that eventually he'll end up being correct.

[sr123]

So it was Thor's doing....

*sigh*, so once again we see Rich having to resort to a Deus ex... deus.

[Chaotic Queen]

A lightning rod is completely useless if it isn't connected to the ground.

Then again, maybe that's why the lightning went around it.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

right has nothing to do with it, its Durkulas body wether tahts "right" or not
By "rightful" I mean "actually owns the body, as opposed to possessing it". Which you continue to show no evidence of.

[DaggerPen]

A lightning rod is completely useless if it isn't connected to the ground.

Then again, maybe that's why the lightning went around it.

HE WENT TO ART SCHOOL, OK? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?164350-Is-there-an-eclipse-occurring&p=9152698#post9152698)

(:p)

[choken1]

Poor giants...

Can I sig that?
Sure. I have nothing against you making a signature out of my quotes.

[RyanKoopa]

Well it's way too early in the story for Durkula to be outed to the order. I wonder how he'll get out of this fix. And will he ever get any character development or is he doomed to remain a generic evil body snatcher until his inevitable defeat?

[Cerlis]

they JUST figured out theyy got into Thor's jurisdiction. They are looking at him because He WAS a priest of Thor and are ABOUT to ask him if there is anything he can do.

So NEXT he is going to tell them that since his transformation he cant contact Thor, cus he's a vampire.

no reason to doubt Durkon at all.

[Forikroder]

Why? You need to establish that. Just because you say something doesn't make it true.

Durkon died, Durkula moved in, just like how you cant ressurect someone whos body has been zombified Durkon cant have hid body back until Durkula is dead


Gee, if only they had some high level fighters to do that. Oh wait.

one high level cleric is worth half a dozen fighters

and they only have 2 high level fighters

who have been active


Sure it does. Anyone is going to be more likely to react if their city is the first to suffer the fallout from failure.

not the super religious types like high level clerics


And, again, there are anti-scrying measures that HPoH can implement. he may not have the epic cloister spell like Xykon, but that isn't the only one that can fluster magical detection.


so you think bog standard anti-scrying is enough to defeat V's special spells? that he specifically created to get around people blocking his spells?


and? So he does that. It takes him a couple hours to get half the guard under his control.

it would take alot longer then 2 hours to get half the guard, maybe half of the patrol but it would take 2 hours for the guards to realise something is up and move in larger numbers and it would take less then 2 hours for the OoTS to catch up


Like when you arbitrarily decided a resurrect spell also needed to specify the soul returning to the body, even though they've only ever been inhabited by one soul. Even vampires don't have a new soul in them.

i only said it was implied and that the rules dont go into that level of specificness

and in OoTS vampires do have a new soul in them


You mean, side with the person who literally JUST staked a vampire for the sake of it?

no i mean side with the idiot who just staked the vampire trying to kill him, and who you know is actually that dumb to actually try and work with you


Also note. You guys know that saying about arguing with idiots? I have a new one: Never argue with Forikroder, or he'll distract you with so many tangents that eventually he'll end up being correct.

ive heard that one before


By "rightful" I mean "actually owns the body, as opposed to possessing it". Which you continue to show no evidence of.
Durkon lost ownership when he died

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Durkon lost ownership when he died
Again, his soul never left, and it was his body originally. The High Priest of Hel is an interloper and is not the owner of the body; he is only possessing it.

[Keltest]

Durkon died, Durkula moved in, just like how you cant ressurect someone whos body has been zombified Durkon cant have hid body back until Durkula is dead That doesn't mean HPoH "owns" the body, simply that hes using it and a resurrection cant displace him. And Durkon's soul is also trapped, which is a different issue.




one high level cleric is worth half a dozen fighters

and they only have 2 high level fighters

who have been active None of the order are optimized. Physically Durkon is inferior to Roy or Belkar, and magic wise he is a largely support caster rather than abusing the various ways that clerics can crush everything in sight.




not the super religious types like high level clerics Why not? Theyre good alignment, so they wouldn't just let the city burn.





so you think bog standard anti-scrying is enough to defeat V's special spells? that he specifically created to get around people blocking his spells? You mean the ones which he has never actually tested against clerical anti-scrying spells before? The experimental ones? V is even on record saying that he was basically hoping that eventually he would stumble on a spell not specifically blocked by the effects.




it would take alot longer then 2 hours to get half the guard, maybe half of the patrol but it would take 2 hours for the guards to realise something is up and move in larger numbers and it would take less then 2 hours for the OoTS to catch up that is unless he walks into their barracks or something similar. Seriously, all he has to do is cause a small ruckus, and guards will come swarming.




i only said it was implied and that the rules dont go into that level of specificness

and in OoTS vampires do have a new soul in them
saying "its implied" is tantamount to saying "I made it up." You are free to DM it that way, however there is nothing in the RaW that says that is the "proper" way. And HPoH is a negative energy spirit, not a soul. Its the difference between a mortal and an outsider like Sabine or Celia.




no i mean side with the idiot who just staked the vampire trying to kill him, and who you know is actually that dumb to actually try and work with you Malack was distinctly NOT trying to kill him at that time.



Durkon lost ownership when he died

He lost possession, not ownership. If someone steals your computer, you don't stop owning it, you simply stop possessing it.

[YossarianLives]

Looks like the s**t is about to hit the fan.

[Forikroder]

Again, his soul never left, and it was his body originally. The High Priest of Hel is an interloper and is not the owner of the body; he is only possessing it.

he died regardless of where his soul was his body was no longer capable of recieving his commands he had no ability to manipulate it in any way and still doesnt


Why not? Theyre good alignment, so they wouldn't just let the city burn.

the city wont burn Thor will ensure the order suceeds


You mean the ones which he has never actually tested against clerical anti-scrying spells before? The experimental ones? V is even on record saying that he was basically hoping that eventually he would stumble on a spell not specifically blocked by the effects.

that means nothing he still has several scrying spells designed to bypass protection


that is unless he walks into their barracks or something similar. Seriously, all he has to do is cause a small ruckus, and guards will come swarming.

and the swarm of guards hold him down and kill him, what part of "durkon cannot beat the entire city alone" is too difficult here?


saying "its implied" is tantamount to saying "I made it up." You are free to DM it that way, however there is nothing in the RaW that says that is the "proper" way. And HPoH is a negative energy spirit, not a soul. Its the difference between a mortal and an outsider like Sabine or Celia.

HPoH is homebrew of rich you have no evidence as to what he is


Malack was distinctly NOT trying to kill him at that time.

ya he had only spent the entire time they were together talking about killing him


He lost possession, not ownership. If someone steals your computer, you don't stop owning it, you simply stop possessing it.

ownership doesnt matter then only possession its Durkulas body and Durkon has no way to get it back

and thats extremely splitting hairs, IMO if someone steals my computer they now own it until i can get it back your really jsut arguing semantics here

[Keltest]

he died regardless of where his soul was his body was no longer capable of recieving his commands he had no ability to manipulate it in any way and still doesn't And? Why does that void his claim to the body?



the city wont burn Thor will ensure the order succeeds So Thor is going to smite Xykon and Redcloak before they can perform the ritual?




that means nothing he still has several scrying spells designed to bypass protection It means we don't even know if they work.




and the swarm of guards hold him down and kill him, what part of "durkon cannot beat the entire city alone" is too difficult here? The part where you seem to think that hes taking on the entire city, all at once, alone, and that every single one of them are warriors.




HPoH is homebrew of rich you have no evidence as to what he is

Except him specifically identifying that he is composed entirely of negative energy. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0947.html)



ya he had only spent the entire time they were together talking about killing him And Nale was talking about killing Malack and his children. But Nale still struck the first blow unprovoked.




ownership doesnt matter then only possession its Durkulas body and Durkon has no way to get it back

and thats extremely splitting hairs, IMO if someone steals my computer they now own it until i can get it back your really jsut arguing semantics here

Ownership and possession are two distinctly different things, whether youre willing to admit it or not.

[BrotherMirtillo]

I really hope Durkula is a short lived minor villain after all. I really, really do. Cause that sub-plot is gonna drive me crazy if it's not a short one.

Seconded. I'm not too good at dealing with this kind of dramatic irony; every time someone is taken in by the HPoH's act it's gonna be excruciating for me.

Aww, but what's a subplot for if not to dip, dodge, bob and weave at its own unhurried pace?


Best thing, though, is that it doesn't matter why he's causing the storm. Durkon has made very effective use of it.

I disagree, but only on history, not on hopes. Durkon hasn't accomplished anything yet (at least not with a visible hand), but I eagerly await the moment when he does.


There's still all sorts of ways this could go.

HPoH talks his way out of it.
HPoH has to jump and featherfall for it. (Once they are over land.)
The Mechane is trashed in the fight, crashlands and HPOH legs it.
The HPOH is destroyed, Durkon is resurrected, and in a massive irony attack Durkon still brings disaster on his homeland. (Maybe because no one else knows he's back.)
Six other ideas I haven't thought of.


I suppose the jump could involve turning into a bat, but really, now you've got me imagining the undead cleric's Feather Fall (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0806.html):

Jump.
-splat-
"Harm."

If you want to be silly, one of those unknown hypotheticals could involve Belkar and the crew breaking HPoH's cover, at which point HPoH flees to leap off of the ship. The next twenty rounds become a manic chase scene back and forth across the deck, up and down the rigging, with Elan strumming quick-step mood music all the way.


But there is no law that a subplot must be drawn out for x amount of strips. To meta your meta, it's actually a plot twist if he DOES get busted and slain on the spot. Because then, among other things, the party's down a cleric, no ifs ands or buts about it. Durkula still provided healing, now they'll have none. Which creates different problems for the party.

I like the cut of your Second Thoughts. But I object on your last point: they do have a healer.

They have Elan.

Not to mention Dr. Banjo, with an option on Wise!Belkar (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html).


DAT Yeerkon face in the last panel.

GOTCHA, SUCKA!

Oh, my lands -- is that an Animorphs reference? :smallsmile:

[Stella]

Is the crew eyeing Durkon because they think he's causing the storm, or wondering why he isn't stopping it?Neither, would be my guess.

It's not reasonable to think that Durkon is causing the weather, that would take spell casting which we haven't seen. It's also not reasonable to wonder why he isn't stopping it, because even a high level cleric doesn't have a direct line to their god to ask that they change their behavior.

It's much more likely that they are wondering exactly why Thor is involved at all, especially given the "lightning bolt dodged the lightning rod" event.

Durkon's best bet is to pull a "tha' gods work in mysterious ways" line of BS, and then start casting Control Weather. Assuming he took it today. That gives him 20 minutes of doing nothing but casting and then waiting for the effect, while the ship moves on and he appears to be doing positive things to help with the storm.

[Forikroder]

And? Why does that void his claim to the body?

so even if someone is dead tehy remain in there body and can move it around?


So Thor is going to smite Xykon and Redcloak before they can perform the ritual?

theyll just think that Thor will ensure that the order is capable of beating Xykon assuming they actually believe the orders story


It means we don't even know if they work.

no reason to think they dont


The part where you seem to think that hes taking on the entire city, all at once, alone, and that every single one of them are warriors.

there dwarves

the guards are going to be moving in packs that he cant easily deal with once they realise that someone strong is out there killing them, and once the priests start using scrying spells and detect theyll be able to find him

it would take him months to topple the dwarves alone


And Nale was talking about killing Malack and his children. But Nale still struck the first blow unprovoked.

we dont know that he killed Malacks children unprovoked, sounds like the Kids attacked him and he fought back in "self defence"


Ownership and possession are two distinctly different things, whether youre willing to admit it or not.

not in this context, ownership is only different then possession when theres a 3rd party who enforces the right of ownership, and even if there was theyd be enforcing Durkulas right since Durkon got vampirized

[Jaxzan Proditor]

he died regardless of where his soul was his body was no longer capable of recieving his commands he had no ability to manipulate it in any way and still doesnt

I feel like I'm echoing Keltest here, but, and? Why does that make him no longer the proper owner of the body?

[Forikroder]

I feel like I'm echoing Keltest here, but, and? Why does that make him no longer the proper owner of the body?

because he no longer has any claim to it he lost control of its gone, it got repossesed and sold to a new owner

[Keltest]

so even if someone is dead tehy remain in there body and can move it around?

Once again, confusing possession for ownership


theyll just think that Thor will ensure that the order is capable of beating Xykon assuming they actually believe the orders story The gods do not act so overtly on the world; they have clerics explicitly for the purpose of helping guide events towards their desires.



no reason to think they don't
You mean besides that theyre experimental spells? That's plenty of reason to think they wont.




there dwarves

the guards are going to be moving in packs that he cant easily deal with once they realise that someone strong is out there killing them, and once the priests start using scrying spells and detect theyll be able to find him

it would take him months to topple the dwarves alone

He doesn't need to topple the dwarves alone. Once he starts dominating guards, the city will be locked in paranoia. Best case scenario is that they institute marshal law in order to do damage control, and then have guards travel in huge packs. But he can do things besides just cause soldiers to fight each other. Vandalizing temples, stealing artifacts, murdering families in their homes. Lotta things he can do to spread a panic. As for scrying, the caster is at a distinct disadvantage if theyre unfamiliar with their target, and the target actually gets bonuses to the will save if the caster hasn't actually gotten a good look at them. Detect evil is too short range to cover an entire city.




we dont know that he killed Malacks children unprovoked, sounds like the Kids attacked him and he fought back in "self defence" In which case, he wouldn't taunt Malack about it if that were the case. Hes the instigator.



not in this context, ownership is only different then possession when theres a 3rd party who enforces the right of ownership, and even if there was theyd be enforcing Durkulas right since Durkon got vampirized That 3rd party being in this case whatever entity manages the rules of magic. Whether its a literal god or force of nature, magic works the way it works.



And with that said, im going to do what I should have done like a page ago and quit arguing with you. You just keep repeating the same arguments, and im tired of refuting them.

[Forikroder]

The gods do not act so overtly on the world; they have clerics explicitly for the purpose of helping guide events towards their desires.

and they have crazy dedicated clerics that see everythign as a sign from god like how Durkon surrendered because of a rainstorm


You mean besides that theyre experimental spells? That's plenty of reason to think they wont.

he can cast them that means there fuctionable spells we have no reason to think they dont work


He doesn't need to topple the dwarves alone. Once he starts dominating guards, the city will be locked in paranoia. Best case scenario is that they institute marshal law in order to do damage control, and then have guards travel in huge packs. But he can do things besides just cause soldiers to fight each other. Vandalizing temples, stealing artifacts, murdering families in their homes. Lotta things he can do to spread a panic. As for scrying, the caster is at a distinct disadvantage if theyre unfamiliar with their target, and the target actually gets bonuses to the will save if the caster hasn't actually gotten a good look at them. Detect evil is too short range to cover an entire city.

again tahts an extremely slow method of topling a city the dwarves will lock places down and ahve clerics being escorted by guards


In which case, he wouldn't taunt Malack about it if that were the case. Hes the instigator.

your underestimating how completely retarded Nale is


That 3rd party being in this case whatever entity manages the rules of magic. Whether its a literal god or force of nature, magic works the way it works.

and the 3rd party looks at the rules for Vampires, sees that Durkula owns the body now and moves on


And with that said, im going to do what I should have done like a page ago and quit arguing with you. You just keep repeating the same arguments, and im tired of refuting them.

ive heard that one before

[Jaxzan Proditor]

because he no longer has any claim to it he lost control of its gone, it got repossesed and sold to a new owner

Possession doesn't mean the body isn't Durkon's any more. If the High Priest of Hel was killed, and Resurrection was cast on the body, it would be Durkon's soul who inhabits the resurrected body. You were the one who raised a distinction between possession and ownership anyways, which is the whole reason why this argument began.

[sr123]

A lightning rod is completely useless if it isn't connected to the ground.

Then again, maybe that's why the lightning went around it.

Airplanes get struck by lightning all the time, but they are not the final destination of the strike. They just get in the way, and the metal frame acts as a Faraday Cage, protecting those inside as the electricity goes harmlessly (more or less) around it.
*EDIT* - planes *DO* have a lightning rod so that the electricity doesn't go *everywhere* around the cage, called a "static wick" (full explanation) (http://www.physlink.com/education/askexperts/ae568.cfm). Apologies for speaking before googling. *END EDIT*

Lightning rods on land and sea work in a similar manner, to ensure the electricity passes around, not through, the structure you are protecting.

Rigid airships (zeppelins) work the same way, with the steel frame forming the cage.

And the "lightning rod" on this airship may just connect to a metal mesh lining the hull, which I'm sure the airship would have anyway to reinforce it.

Interestingly, modern passenger planes are using composite materials for their shell instead of metal, which makes lightning survivability an interesting engineering problem (http://www.compositesworld.com/articles/lightning-strike-protection-strategies-for-composite-aircraft).

[Forikroder]

Possession doesn't mean the body isn't Durkon's any more. If the High Priest of Hel was killed, and Resurrection was cast on the body, it would be Durkon's soul who inhabits the resurrected body. You were the one who raised a distinction between possession and ownership anyways, which is the whole reason why this argument began.

no the whole reason this argument began is become someone said that using protection from evil on Durkon would prevent Durkula (who was posessing Durkon) to be unable to control him

the ownership = possesion thing was much later

[Peelee]

Never argue with Forikroder, or he'll distract you with so many tangents that eventually he'll end up being looking correct.
I would normally never do this, but in this case..... fixed that for you.


You just keep repeating the same arguments, and im tired of refuting them.

ive heard that one before
There's a reason.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

no the whole reason this argument began is become someone said that using protection from evil on Durkon would prevent Durkula (who was posessing Durkon) to be unable to control him

the ownership = possesion thing was much later

Yes, and Protection from Evil works against beings possessing bodies. If you claim that Protection from Evil doesn't work because "of course thats ignoring the fact that its not technically possesion" and then claim that "ownership=possession" later, it's a little difficult to take your arguments seriously.

[Forikroder]

Yes, and Protection from Evil works against beings possessing bodies. If you claim that Protection from Evil doesn't work because "of course thats ignoring the fact that its not technically possesion" and then claim that "ownership=possession" later, it's a little difficult to take your arguments seriously.

your getting the different definitions mixed up, im saying hes not possessing Durkons body (as in a spiritual ability generally associated with ghosts to enter a body and control it) im saying he is however currenty in possession of durkons body (as in is currently in ownership of Durkons body)

[Angelalex242]

Ya know...now I wonder...

Is Durkula's possession of Durkon's soul even normal? It doesn't strike me as the standard state of affairs for there to be a separate vampire spirit controlling the normal, healthy spirit of the former owner of the body.

Particularly if the former owner of the body can still pray for deliverance and be heard loud and clear.

[Forikroder]

Ya know...now I wonder...

Is Durkula's possession of Durkon's soul even normal? It doesn't strike me as the standard state of affairs for there to be a separate vampire spirit controlling the normal, healthy spirit of the former owner of the body.

Particularly if the former owner of the body can still pray for deliverance and be heard loud and clear.

word of god saids it is

also wether Thor can hear durkon is ahrd to say, the storm could be meant as a warning for the Order to not trust Durkula

[Jaxzan Proditor]

your getting the different definitions mixed up, im saying hes not possessing Durkons body (as in a spiritual ability generally associated with ghosts to enter a body and control it) im saying he is however currenty in possession of durkons body (as in is currently in ownership of Durkons body)

And I'm saying that the only thing going on is the first one, as in controlling a body that is not his. And since you haven't been able to show otherwise, and we've just been going in circles, I am going to step out of this one. Peelee and Keltest are right.

[Forikroder]

And I'm saying that the only thing going on is the first one, as in controlling a body that is not his. And since you haven't been able to show otherwise, and we've just been going in circles, I am going to step out of this one. Peelee and Keltest are right.

durkon DIED
his body was turned into a vampire
a vampire soul was put in the body
his ould soul was held captive for memorys

Durkon died when you die its not your body anymore when you become a vampire its not your body anymore, its not durkons body Durkula is not possesing Durkons body he was given it

[Lombard]

Heh. If I was him, I'd blame Belkar.

[zimmerwald1915]

Ya know...now I wonder...

Is Durkula's possession of Durkon's soul even normal? It doesn't strike me as the standard state of affairs for there to be a separate vampire spirit controlling the normal, healthy spirit of the former owner of the body.

Particularly if the former owner of the body can still pray for deliverance and be heard loud and clear.
It is. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=17327934#post17327934) I'm pretty sure this is the second time I've linked this today.

[Angelalex242]

...I see! Seems Norse Rules do in fact apply to the Norse Pantheon, and Durkon would've earned Valhalla had he not been vamped.

So there is, in fact, a separate quest to slay the vampire and free his soul to go on to Valhalla. And we can clearly see that's exactly what his soul is working for.

[Forikroder]

...I see! Seems Norse Rules do in fact apply to the Norse Pantheon, and Durkon would've earned Valhalla had he not been vamped.

So there is, in fact, a separate quest to slay the vampire and free his soul to go on to Valhalla. And we can clearly see that's exactly what his soul is working for.

i think his soul would prefer to get ressurected to stop Xykon

[Kornaki]

In a world where praying to the correct lightning deity is literally a matter of life and death you would think the crew of the Mechane would be a bit more aware of which territory they're in. Missing that you crossed deific boundaries seems like a pretty big screwup.

[Angelalex242]

I don't think it mattered if the Mechane's crew knew which deity to pray to.

This is Thor specifically fighting for the soul of his cleric in the most direct way he possibly can without breaking the divine intervention rules. Mere prayers by the random Mechane dude wouldn't throw him off course.