Double Hit, Stormguard Warrior and AoO general woes.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I was thinking of posting this in the simple Q&A thread, but I think the question complex enough to merit it's own thread.

Suppose I have an hypothecial character with the following feats: Double Hit and Stormguard Warrior.
ilar's Gambit,
Now Doublel hits allows a character to hit with both weapon on a single attack of opportunity, Stormguard warrior allows you to refrain from taking an AoO and instead get a +4 bonus to attack/damage on the next attack. My question is if I refrain to use Dual Hit do I get a +4 bonus or a +8 bonus? I guess what I'm asking is if using Double hit counts as a single AoO or two.

[Kazudo]

Well, unless Double Hit uses a second AoO per round, then you're really only forgoing one AoO despite hitting twice during that time period.

[animewatcha]

What you are looking for is drag mag 340's improved combat reflexes.

http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/featbox.pl?feat=Improved_Combat_Reflexes

[Dusk Eclipse]

Well, unless Double Hit uses a second AoO per round, then you're really only forgoing one AoO despite hitting twice during that time period. Yeah, that does make sense I guess.


What you are looking for is drag mag 340's improved combat reflexes.

http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/featbox.pl?feat=Improved_Combat_Reflexes

I want to avoid using Dragon, but that would be really neat.

[animewatcha]

Thing is, you need combat reflexes and high dex to truely make use of it.

[Dusk Eclipse]

The idea isn't to make the AoO, I plan to combine the above with Robilar's gambit to sort of simulate a "counter attacking" style, I make the enemy provoke AoO by attacking me (RG), refrain to take the attack with SgW for the +8 attack/damage bonus next round, rinse and repeat until enemy is dead (which shouldn't take long considering I'm also packing power attack).

Double hit was just an attempt to milk the most out of it, though if I combine both I make two attacks of opportunity (one which each weapon thanks to double hit) and refrain from taking the second pair (at a -7 penalty) from Improved Combat reflexes. Not a bad deal I think.

[Vaz]

Nope. If you don't take an AoO, you get Stormguard Warrior's bonus. Double Hit only lets you attack twice on an AoO. It is not two seperate AoO's. However, stomguard warrior works with Evasive Reflexes iirc for 5ft step etc.

Remember that Combat reflexes gives you Dex+1, something I tend to forget.

[Dusk Eclipse]

The build does have enough dex (16) to make use of Combat reflexes, so there is no problem with that at the moment.

[Seerow]

Nope. If you don't take an AoO, you get Stormguard Warrior's bonus. Double Hit only lets you attack twice on an AoO. It is not two seperate AoO's. However, stomguard warrior works with Evasive Reflexes iirc for 5ft step etc.

Remember that Combat reflexes gives you Dex+1, something I tend to forget.

Wait really? If you give up the AoO to take a 5ft step you still get the benefits of stormgarde warrior? How does the RAW work out for that? Or am I misunderstanding?

Edit: Huh, I never noticed that. Just checked it out. Evasive Reflexes explicitly says "When an opponent provokes an attack of opportunity you can choose to instead take a 5ft step". It says nothing about that counting against your AoOs for the round, or counting as taking an AoO, or anything like that. So you can totally use it to move around and get bonuses next turn. That's pretty awesome.

[animewatcha]

The idea isn't to make the AoO, I plan to combine the above with Robilar's gambit to sort of simulate a "counter attacking" style, I make the enemy provoke AoO by attacking me (RG), refrain to take the attack with SgW for the +8 attack/damage bonus next round, rinse and repeat until enemy is dead (which shouldn't take long considering I'm also packing power attack).

Double hit was just an attempt to milk the most out of it, though if I combine both I make two attacks of opportunity (one which each weapon thanks to double hit) and refrain from taking the second pair (at a -7 penalty) from Improved Combat reflexes. Not a bad deal I think.

I looked up stormguard warrior. You would gain +8 total from forfeiting AoO number 1 and number 2, not the double hit. However, if you make AoOs on your next turn instead of giving them up, you should be get the hit and damage bonuses on those.

Also, there is a greater combat reflexes.

http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/featbox.pl?feat=Greater_Combat_Reflexes

[DarkSonic1337]

While double hit won't get you the +8 per attack for stormguard warrior, adding Karmic strike will (though it has a prereq of combat expertise Q_Q).

Karmic Strike is like robilar's gambit, except that it triggers when you actually get hit. So any attack that hits you would trigger two attacks of opportunity (1 from them attacking you, 1 from them hitting you. A subtle difference).

Personally I'd actually just use my attacks of opportunity to make touch attacks with both weapons with double hit, for +10 to damage on my attacks next round (I've got a swordsage build with all of those right now actually, and I'm getting +20 to damage in the next round any time somebody hits me. It lets me shred things to pieces with Raging Mongoose)

I want to try to add in snap kick to up that to +30 damage when I get hit (a fanged ring for improved unarmed strike to qualify for the feat, and use my wand of heroics for snap kick)

[NoACWarrior]

Something I will toss into the mix is stacking.

Generally the bonuses can stack with each other, but not from the same "source" which in this case is the class ability (unless it says it specifically stacks).

So regardless of how many AoOs you give up, you won't be getting more than a +4.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Wait really? If you give up the AoO to take a 5ft step you still get the benefits of stormgarde warrior? How does the RAW work out for that? Or am I misunderstanding?

Edit: Huh, I never noticed that. Just checked it out. Evasive Reflexes explicitly says "When an opponent provokes an attack of opportunity you can choose to instead take a 5ft step". It says nothing about that counting against your AoOs for the round, or counting as taking an AoO, or anything like that. So you can totally use it to move around and get bonuses next turn. That's pretty awesome.

That is a pretty blatant abuse of RAW and thus it is indeed awesome :smallbiggrin: I'll definitely take that in mind for another build, this one is pretty feat starved as it is (enough that unless I sack some stuff I will need to Dark Chaos Shuffle the Warblade's bonus feats, which otherwise don't do anything)


I looked up stormguard warrior. You would gain +8 total from forfeiting AoO number 1 and number 2, not the double hit. However, if you make AoOs on your next turn instead of giving them up, you should be get the hit and damage bonuses on those.

Also, there is a greater combat reflexes.

http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/featbox.pl?feat=Greater_Combat_Reflexes

I understand that, if I combine double hit and improved greater reflexes I can a) make two attacks and get a +4 bonus next round or b) forfeit both attacks and get a +8, having that kind of versatility is pretty awesome. Greater combat reflexes would quite powerful, but I can't fit it right now, definitely something to consider in a build that can generate more AoO per round (a dual Spinning sword wielder perhaps?) to really abuse it.


While double hit won't get you the +8 per attack for stormguard warrior, adding Karmic strike will (though it has a prereq of combat expertise Q_Q).

Karmic Strike is like robilar's gambit, except that it triggers when you actually get hit. So any attack that hits you would trigger two attacks of opportunity (1 from them attacking you, 1 from them hitting you. A subtle difference).

Personally I'd actually just use my attacks of opportunity to make touch attacks with both weapons with double hit, for +10 to damage on my attacks next round (I've got a swordsage build with all of those right now actually, and I'm getting +20 to damage in the next round any time somebody hits me. It lets me shred things to pieces with Raging Mongoose)

The beauty of this is that I have a lot of flexibility, if I can wait a little to get a power spike then yes using combat rhythm would be awesome, but it only gives damage boost while channeling the storm also gives me attack roll bonus which are much more important since I'm using a Power Attack build that doesn't get Shocktrooper.

Karmic Strike is strictly inferior to Robilar's gambit, it's only saving grace being accessible much earlier (IIRC a human fighter can get it at level 1).

[Seerow]

While double hit won't get you the +8 per attack for stormguard warrior, adding Karmic strike will (though it has a prereq of combat expertise Q_Q).

Karmic Strike is like robilar's gambit, except that it triggers when you actually get hit. So any attack that hits you would trigger two attacks of opportunity (1 from them attacking you, 1 from them hitting you. A subtle difference).

Personally I'd actually just use my attacks of opportunity to make touch attacks with both weapons with double hit, for +10 to damage on my attacks next round (I've got a swordsage build with all of those right now actually, and I'm getting +20 to damage in the next round any time somebody hits me. It lets me shred things to pieces with Raging Mongoose)

I want to try to add in snap kick to up that to +30 damage when I get hit (a fanged ring for improved unarmed strike to qualify for the feat, and use my wand of heroics for snap kick)

This sounds like a solid basis for an absolutely devastating E6 build (Minus Robilar's Gambit, its prereqs can't be met in E6).

Here's a question: How does stormguard warrior interact with High Sword Low Axe? Does making a touch attack that deals no damage count as hitting with the weapon? If so you can go full on Jack B Quick here, and add the trip attack (to get 1 more attack via improved trip) on your routine.


edit:

Karmic Strike is strictly inferior to Robilar's gambit, it's only saving grace being accessible much earlier (IIRC a human fighter can get it at level 1).


The important thing with Karmic Strike is that it stacks with Robilar's Gambit. If you can squeeze both onto the same build, you get to double your AoO output.

[animewatcha]

Karmic Strike is like robilar's gambit, except that it triggers when you actually get hit. So any attack that hits you would trigger two attacks of opportunity (1 from them attacking you, 1 from them hitting you. A subtle difference).



Why would it be two when only one can be done 'as part of the same movement' or whatever the rules stated. Mainly 'the same attack'.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Maybe you are right, Robilar's Gambit does specify you resolve you attack after your enemies' one.

[NoACWarrior]

Maybe you are right, Robilar's Gambit does specify you resolve you attack after your enemies' one.

Thats the issue - if RG actually lets you ignore the AoO rules on 1 AoO per action which provokes it.
Many people claim that the action provoking it is solitary by the exact action taken - regardless of trigger conditions.
Others claim that it is trigger conditions which allow for multiple AoOs on a particular action so long as the trigger conditions are not the same.

Stormguard works extremely well with both, because you don't actually take the 1st AoO, you can't violate any limits on AoOs, you get 1 AoO from RG which you turn into +4 bonus, and your KS AoO is executed (with the +4).

[Dusk Eclipse]

Thats the issue - if RG actually lets you ignore the AoO rules on 1 AoO per action which provokes it.
Many people claim that the action provoking it is solitary by the exact action taken - regardless of trigger conditions.
Others claim that it is trigger conditions which allow for multiple AoOs on a particular action so long as the trigger conditions are not the same.

Stormguard works extremely well with both, because you don't actually take the 1st AoO, you can't violate any limits on AoOs, you get 1 AoO from RG which you turn into +4 bonus, and your KS AoO is executed (with the +4).

No you don't Stormguard specifies you get the bonus "On your next turn"

[NoACWarrior]

No you don't Stormguard specifies you get the bonus "On your next turn"

oh wow didn't know that. I thought it was next attack. Does the bonuses persist for the entire turn?

[Dusk Eclipse]

Yes, yes they do. It is a very strong feat and the pre-requisites aren't horrible.

[NoACWarrior]

Yes, yes they do. It is a very strong feat and the pre-requisites aren't horrible.

Lol - should have read the entire feat. So it does have a stacking bonus! In that case you'd be able to forgo both KS and RG - the AoO rules limit how many AoOs can be taken off of a single action, not how many are actually provoked or forgone.

But like others have said - its not the number of attacks you forgo, its the number of AoOs you forgo.

[Red Fel]

Karmic Strike is strictly inferior to Robilar's gambit, it's only saving grace being accessible much earlier (IIRC a human fighter can get it at level 1).

Actually, there's a fairly important distinction between the two. Observe.


On your action you choose to take a -4 penalty to your Armor Class in exchange for the ability to make an attack of opportunity against any creature that makes a successful melee attack, or melee touch attack against you.

Anyone who strikes at you gains a +4 bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls against you.
Notice the difference? Karmic Strike means you take a -4 to AC. Robilar's Gambit gives them a +4 to attack rolls and damage rolls.

Kind of an important distinction.

Of course, another distinction is that, technically, Karmic Strike only triggers off of melee attacks, while Robilar's Gambit could theoretically also apply to ranged attacks. But that's not generally relevant.

[Dusk Eclipse]

True, I had forgotten about that, it doesn't really matter to me at the moment though, since I won't be using Karmic Strike with this build anyway. As for the +4 attack Robilar's Gambit gives, well I'm fond of getting mobility (via armour enhancement if I don't need it as a pre-requisite) and just running around the enemies, provoking AoO while essentially negating the to-hit bonus they get. It is obviously not perfect since they can get lucky on the attack roll, but what is life without risks anyway? I also tend to splurge on a lesser cloak of displacement as soon as it becomes affordable.

[Big Fau]

Something I will toss into the mix is stacking.

Generally the bonuses can stack with each other, but not from the same "source" which in this case is the class ability (unless it says it specifically stacks).

So regardless of how many AoOs you give up, you won't be getting more than a +4.

Read the feat:


On your next turn, you gain a +4 bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls for each attack that you refrained from making against the same opponent.

[NoACWarrior]

Read the feat

I looked it up later and made a post with my findings ;)
I find thats the issue I have, I get super excited about something and not actually read the text that well and get caught up in how I think its supposed to work and how it actually works. It is nice to get a correction every now and then, thanks Big Fau. :smallredface:

One thing to note about using only RG and mobility, with moving around to provoke more AoOs, not every monster or NPC will have combat reflexes. I find that your build is quite effective when you actually get hit as well - procing KS and then forgoing on the AoO. Sure, you'll get hit every time, but there are ways to make your opponent take passive damage, and to reduce the damage you take. To get the ability to take almost every hit from a hydra's 10 attacks, which give you a +40 on your turn for all of your attacks, would be pretty helpful especially with the iteratives. It makes combat go faster, which I think is way more important than minor survivability.

[Dusk Eclipse]

The build doesn't have KS, I can't fit it at all, I'm already using flaws. And the idea isn't to run around the same enemy, but running through as many as possible to get some damage (double hit AoO) and getting the Channel the storm bonus (Improved Combat Reflexes) against as many enemies as possible.

[animewatcha]

What is your build?