Bear Warrior Advice for a Newbie (3.5e)

[Almighty Tubs]

Hi all,

So I just started my first ever pen and paper RPG a few weeks back with some friends. One has clearly played a lot, the DM used to and the rest of us began totally clueless. Now, after a few weeks of trying to unscramble a massive pack of books that somebody downloaded, I feel like I've got the basics on lock.

I'm playing a Barbarian, kicking ass a loving it! Took 2 levels of Fighter for free feats, now I'm at level 7 and thinking Prestige Classes. On the face of it, Bear Warrior fits exactly with how I imagine my character and i love the idea. My DM even took the time to look it over and said I'd be fine Power Attacking, Cleaving, etc. while in bear form, which i was unsure about. He also bumped up the Dire Bear bonus from its ****ty +20 Str (compared to Brown Bear's +16) to a +26 Str. He's pretty relaxed about stuff, mostly because I think being uptight would take too much work.

But, I'm enough of a numbers junkie to have hit a problem. I can't see any way that i would do even AS MUCH damage taking Bear Warrior as if i just filled out standard Barbarian! I mean, the PrC drops all the random little flavour bits (mainly Dmg Reduction after lvl 5, but still) and implies: "be a bear! DESTROY THINGS!!" <- which i love!
But if i run numbers as i understand the system, i do less damage at every stage, with lower AC and less Skill options mid-fight.

So, my guy's stats on next level up are as follows: 20 Str, 16 Dex, 16 Con, 11 Int, 14 Wis, 9 Cha. I'm currently chilling with a +1 Greatsword and a Breastplate for armor. It just looks like the Power Attack benefits for 2-Handers (not to mention Leap Attacking) totally outweigh the Bear stuff. Assuming all this stays constant, below are the results as best i could calculate:


Level 8, enraged (HP equal):
Normal (+4 Str, Con; +2 Will; -2 AC) [30ft speed, 16 AC, cannot Tumble]
1 swing: +10 attack roll (-6 P.A.), 2d6 + 11 + 12 (P.A.), average dmg = 29 / 35 (leaping)
Full attack: +10 attack roll (-6 P.A.), 2d6 + 11 + 12 (P.A.), average dmg = 29
+10 attack roll (-1 P.A), 2d6 + 11 + 2 (P.A.), average dmg = 19 Total ≈ 48

Black Bear (+8 Str, +2 Dex, +4 Con; +2 Will; -2 AC) [40ft speed, 14 AC, can Climb, Swim]
1 attack: Claw, +10 attack roll (-7 P.A.), 1d4 + 9 + 7 (P.A.), average dmg = 18
Full attack:
Claw, +10 attack roll (-7 P.A.), 1d4 + 9 + 7 (P.A.), average dmg = 18
Claw, +10 attack roll (-7 P.A.), 1d4 + 9 + 7 (P.A.), average dmg = 18
Bite, +10 attack roll (-2 P.A.), 1d6 + 9 + 2 (P.A.), average dmg = 14
Total ≈ 50

Level 13, enraged (13 more HP as bear):

Normal (+6 Str, Con; +3 Will; -2 AC) [30ft speed, 16 AC, cannot Tumble]
1: +10 attack roll (-12 P.A.), 2d6 + 13 + 24 (P.A.), average dmg = 43 / 55 (leaping)
Full:
+10 attack roll (-12 P.A.), 2d6 + 13 + 24 (P.A.), average dmg = 43
+10 attack roll (-7 P.A.), 2d6 + 13 + 14 (P.A.), average dmg = 33
+10 attack roll (-2 P.A), 2d6 + 13 + 4 (P.A.), average dmg = 23 Total ≈ 99

Brown Bear (+16 Str, +2 Dex, +8 Con; +2 Will; -2 AC) [40ft speed, 16 AC, can Climb, Swim]
1: Claw, +13 attack roll (-13 P.A.), 1d8 + 13 + 13 (P.A.), average dmg = 32 (Free Grapple)
Full:
Claw, +13 attack roll (-13 P.A.), 1d8 + 13 + 13 (P.A.), average dmg = 32
Claw, +13 attack roll (-13 P.A.), 1d8 + 13 + 13 (P.A.), average dmg = 32
Bite, +10 attack roll (-11 P.A.), 2d6 + 13 + 11 (P.A.), average dmg = 30
Total ≈ 94


So... assuming the above is legible... do i have this right? Does turning into a giant ****ing bear actually not up my damage in the slightest? Or have i got the whole system put together incorrectly? I read somewhere that as a bear you get to do your normal attacks like a human, but as unarmed... and THEN use the claws + bite, but that sounded like somebody was gaming the system hard.

Not looking to break the frame here and i recognize that those are some mighty high numbers, i just feel slightly robbed over here.

Anyway, to anybody who took the time to read all this, thank you, all input welcome.

One fairly strong caveat, I've delved about as deeply as i care to into the out-of-core books (it starts getting stupid imho - and i'm cool with turning into a BEAR when angry). I don't want to hear about which race i should have been, or some crazy magical item that fixes everything, or any number of 5-class builds that all magically multiply with each other, etc, etc. I'm just trying to understand this class as written or intended. Is it actually as underpowered as it looks? Any nice (simple) alternatives for character growth?

[Books i've done my best to read and grasp: PH, DMG, MM, PHII, all the "Complete-"s and the ToB (Warblade looks cool, just not for this character)]

Wall of text, out.

[Kazudo]

The truth is that an optimized 2-hander is probably one of the most powerful combat styles in the game. Crit fishers have a good thing going, but most of them rely on precision damage which is easily overcome.

[infomatic]

Bear Warrior is fine for 5 levels (at least at the mid-game, so for example Barb7/BearWarrior5). But after that, what you're giving up in most cases — Armor/Weapon enchantments, other magic item gear that can't be used by bear — outweighs it and you'd be better off swinging a greatsword. You'll attack more (because bears don't use iterative attacks), deal more damage, hit stuff at range, etc.

A bear's best trick isn't straight power-attack damage, anyway, it's the great grapple modifiers that let you effectively shut down a single opponent who doesn't have freedom of movement/teleportation. And again, this trick stops becoming very useful after mid-levels.

[Kazudo]

Additionally: one of the primary reasons that Wild Shape is such a good game mechanic is not only the variety, but that there are armor enchantments that let you gain the armor's benefits while in Wild Shape. Bear Warrior doesn't benefit from that (IIRC). Now, don't get me wrong, you without gear is much more powerful than the majority of other characters without gear. However, when you factor gear in Bear Warrior just isn't as good as it looks. If you were large, you'd be much better off doing something like War Hulk so gain the Mighty Swing lineup as well as +2 STR per level.

[Almighty Tubs]

Thanks for the input guys!

And yeah, once i started looking at the damage from even crappy rolls, that big old sword started to look pretty scary. I'm only a Half-Orc (Players Handbook ftw) so no fancy knock-back, -down, or -over for me, and i don't have the Int to go tripping everybody for free :(

I think "Wild" armor would let me keep the AC from a suit while in bear form, but no enchantments. I've also read conflicting arguments that stuff that goes on anatomy shared between humanoids and bears can stay worn (rings, necks, etc) but i dunno about that one. The main issue i keep hitting is that ANY strong stat bonuses from magical gear or other sources scale far better outside of bear form anyway, so with or without them, i still do better. Shock Trooping and Combat Brute look like incredible growth areas, then maybe some Martial Study feats for Iron Heart surge and Lightning Throw (plus the Balance Class Skill)

The grapple point is a good one, i still don't understand grappling very well. I think my DM doesn't either, lol, since we just do one opposed grapple check for a grab and a free unarmed attack, same to get loose or turn the tables. It did seem strong that hits as a brown bear were auto-grapples, but i know we're not following that system as it's designed. Any tips on that front?

I have to say though, reading all the threads around makes me think we're in a seriously poor city. I don't have the funds or access to any of the crazy **** people seem to take as granted.

Sucks though, i might see if he'll grant me iterative claw attacks or something, cos i'm not taking this class to get worse at murdering things - I'm the only meat shield in the party, stuff has to die fast. I just loved the flavor of this idea.

Plus, i read about a crazy combo where you can have two bear companions, ride a bear, worship bears, command bears, look bear-like and then turn into one when angry. Sounded hilarious for future games, just didn't wanna go comedy cheese my first time playing. Amusingly, our sorceress did summon 9 celestial badgers when we attacked a pirate ship last session. They did not a single useful thing, but had me in stitches!

[AnonymousPepper]

If you're going to stick with the Bear Warrior, an Amulet of Natural Weapons is seriously your friend. Just throwing that out there.

Also great for Monks! :biggrin:

[infomatic]

If you're not using standard grapple rules a bear becomes even less useful. Its major advantages are a) Free grapples with claw attacks and b) Size modifiers in addition to strength.

On items, I believe the current rules are that bears CAN use items, if they have the slots for them, but that when you change they turn nonfunctional. So you'd have to take off the items, turn into a bear and put them on again. (Not something that's likely in a mid-combat rage.) Wilding Clasps (Magic Item Compendium, I think) can avoid this problem, but RAW they work only for Druids).

If your DM is house-ruling items so you can use them, and you can pick up enchantments for your natural weapons (i.e. that amulet that was mentioned) then it becomes more viable. Though still, treasure in many pre made adventures is generally geared to the assumption that you'll be using weapons.

[Mootsmcboots]

Yeah, I was running a 2 handed PA Barb in my first 3.5 game.

PA+Shock Trooper= Dead stuff.

I also took bear warrior, and while the damage may not be on par, I tended to use it situationally

RP. Turning into a bear for a jail break was particularly fun.

Need an HP boost. The big con bonuses can be fairly helpful, and as a bear, grappling is boss, pin those mofos.

After Bear Warrior take Warshaper. Immue to stunning/crit hits. Natural weapons up by one size, or an additional natural weapon, 10 foot reach. Additional +4 Str and Con

[Almighty Tubs]

Yeah, looks like Smokey the Barbearian is out for now. Who knows, maybe my DM will tweak it to make it worthwhile, but better not plan for that.

On the enchantment stuff, i really can't afford (or seem to find) all this fancy magic stuff. I spent all my money on a basic +1 Str ring and removing a flesh-eating worm parasite (bloody things). Only found the +1 Greatsword when we murdered an Orc Chief. Our cleric still can't afford a standard set of full-plate, lol; plus, he never rolled higher than a 4 on the HD so you can imagine how sturdy he is!

Anyway, any advice for alternative growth routes? Feat-wise, i'm thinking to push Shock Trooper, Combat Brute and Martial Studies (Lightning Throw, Iron Heart Surge & Balance class skill all rock). But the class options are looking a bit sparse: Barb basically just gets slightly better rage and damage reduction after this, Bear Warrior is a net loss, Eye of Gruumsh has some nice things for 2 levels, but the Double-Axe crap kinda rules it out for me, Warblade looks cool but really doesn't fit my style for this toon, Fighter = boring and less HP, Cleric and Barb rule each others stuff out.....
...
kinda stuck, i was really excited about becoming a kick-ass ursine. :(
I'll try modelling some stuff with Warshaper post-Bear Warrior, maybe that'll tip the scales and give me something fun to do.

[Ellowryn]

Nowhere in the polymorph spell, alter self spell, or bear warrior entry does it say you lose the use of any items you have. As long as the new form has the appropriate "slot" to wear the item then the item changes to fit. The only issue is armor once you begin to change into a large creature because medium armor will only change to fit a medium size creature. The thing about druid shapechange is that it specifically says that any gear you have melds into your body, which is why there are items such as wilding clasps that allow you to keep them.

Also there is an item in Savage Species, Gloves of Man pg 57, that allows you to wield items like a normal humanoid so you you can shift to bear and STILL greatsword people into pulp.

[infomatic]

From Complete Mage rules on Polymorph subschool (most recent that I know of). Bear Warrior change references polymorph. You could probably talk a DM into allowing some types of things to convert (i.e., rings) but likely not all.




Any gear worn or carried by the target melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. When the target reverts to its true form, any objects previously melded into the new form reappear in the same location on its body they previously occupied and are once again functional. Any new items worn in the assumed form fall off and land at the target's feet.



Here's the Polymorph thread (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10479).

[Ellowryn]

Wow thats so.... stupid.... Yeah either have the DM houserule that bear warrior works like the original polymorph, or have anything that works for druid wildshape work for polymorph. Or just reroll because that change makes bearwarrior a worthless class.

[infomatic]

I get what they were trying for with the rules -- avoiding the ridiculousness of fully geared and casting Cryohydras -- but I agree that applying them to Bear Warrior, which gets one OK form rather than dozens of great ones, is silly.

[lytokk]

Just a suggestion here. If Bear warrior isn't for you as its been changed to not be based on polymorph, might I suggest Primeval? Even after all the errata, its alternate form ability is still based on polymorph. The thing about it, is you get to pick a single form from any dire creature, or prehistoric creature, for instance, dinosaurs, no bigger than large, and no more than 8 HD. Its in the Frostburn book btw.

Granted, this is assuming you want to turn into a big predatory creature.

[Almighty Tubs]

Hah! Agreed... I think we'll probably end up running it just like a Wild Shape ability (rings, Amulets, etc.) stick around but anything else other than "Wild-" armor will stop. As i say, none of us are (or look likely to be) rocking hardcore magical props in this city. Stupid, poverty-ridden place, lol!

The poster who mentioned Warshaper might be onto something though! Fast Healing rocks (no more "heal me, you damn cleric!" after every fight), extra Str and Con, no Crits or Stuns ever and i can add to my Natural Weapons (and their reach) as a bear! Don't quite get the point of the final level though - maybe useful if i was a polymorph wizard instead?

Would the "Morphic Weapons" feature allow me to grow a third Claw attack? Or would i instead just scale up the damage on each Claw attack?

Might be more fun to just grow a horn and stab stuff after biting, i guess?

Or super stupid, tentacle up like a boss and start using that Improved Grab ability in style! ;)


EDIT: I'll brave the Frostburn book when i have the energy, but thanks for the Primeval tip - will look it up! I 100% want to turn into a big, predatory creature :D

[tyckspoon]

From Complete Mage rules on Polymorph subschool (most recent that I know of). Bear Warrior change references polymorph. You could probably talk a DM into allowing some types of things to convert (i.e., rings) but likely not all.


One of the more entertainingly stupid things in D&D is that the Polymorph subschool rules don't actually affect Polymorph; Alter Self and everything based on it (so all the Core shapechanging spells) gets an explicit exception that whatever text they have is still the controlling rules. So if you run with "Bear Warrior uses Polymorph rules except where the class says differently" (and it says nothing about what happens to gear) then you still get to keep anything a bear could wear. Which would mostly be jewelry type items and maybe a cloak/cape, but it's better than nothing.