Advanced Class Playtest

[Elfkin_King]

I was just recently shown the Advanced Class playtest by my friends, and its pretty sweet. Does anyone have any optimizations for any of them yet?
(My favorites are the Brawler, Slayer, Arcanist, and the Swashbuckler)

[Kudaku]

The ACG isn't finalized yet, so I don't think there are any optimization guides for the play test classes.

Here's a few thoughts I've had along the way:

Arcanists don't really need very much charisma. A positive modifier is nice, but I wouldn't go higher than 14 unless I have a very generous PB. Arcanists are sufficiently similar to wizards and sorcerers that you can pick up a lot of good advice from wizard and sorcerer optimization guides. Cherrypicking arcane schools and bloodlines is awesome, and combining the right school and bloodline can create some very powerful options.

Warpriests really benefit from the Fate's Favored trait. Combine with the Sacred tattoo (half-orc) racial trait for double the fun. Unlike the Paladin, Lay on Hands isn't a very good combat option. Try to save your fervor for spells, including healing spells if necessary.

The Slayer's talent to pick up ranger combat styles is really good for making strength-focused TWF builds. Note that unlike the ranger, you can use the feat while wearing heavy armor, so there's less need for dexterity. Full Plate Slayers have a lot of potential.

Figure out good feat combinations for the Brawler ahead of time. Stopping the game so you can browse feat options is about as annoying as the conjuration wizard who wants to borrow the Bestiary to find out what monster he should summon.

[Kurald Galain]

Warpriests really benefit from the Fate's Favored trait.

Why is that? I just did a search and they don't appear to get a luck bonus from anything.

[Kudaku]

Why is that? I just did a search and they don't appear to get a luck bonus from anything.

Divine Favor is the go-to personal buff for a warpriest. It's a great buff at level 1 and with a scaling bonus that caps at +4 to attack rolls and damage at level 9, it stays relevant for a long time. You'll eventually replace it with Divine Power (available at level 10), which also provides luck bonuses and caps at +7/+7.

[Kurald Galain]

Divine Favor is the go-to personal buff for a warpriest. It's a great buff at level 1 and with a scaling bonus that caps at +4 to attack rolls and damage at level 9, it stays relevant for a long time. You'll eventually replace it with Divine Power (available at level 10), which also provides luck bonuses and caps at +7/+7.

True, but that goes for any character that likes meleeing and can cast cleric spells, regardless of class.

[Elfkin_King]

The ACG isn't finalized yet, so I don't think there are any optimization guides for the play test classes.

Here's a few thoughts I've had along the way:

Arcanists don't really need very much charisma. A positive modifier is nice, but I wouldn't go higher than 14 unless I have a very generous PB. Arcanists are sufficiently similar to wizards and sorcerers that you can pick up a lot of good advice from wizard and sorcerer optimization guides. Cherrypicking arcane schools and bloodlines is awesome, and combining the right school and bloodline can create some very powerful options.

Warpriests really benefit from the Fate's Favored trait. Combine with the Sacred tattoo (half-orc) racial trait for double the fun. Unlike the Paladin, Lay on Hands isn't a very good combat option. Try to save your fervor for spells, including healing spells if necessary.

The Slayer's talent to pick up ranger combat styles is really good for making strength-focused TWF builds. Note that unlike the ranger, you can use the feat while wearing heavy armor, so there's less need for dexterity. Full Plate Slayers have a lot of potential.

Figure out good feat combinations for the Brawler ahead of time. Stopping the game so you can browse feat options is about as annoying as the conjuration wizard who wants to borrow the Bestiary to find out what monster he should summon.


I'm pretty good with monks, so the Brawler isn't that hard, and same with the Slayer. :) I'm not totally used to magic classes yet, and I just looked at the Investigator and it looks like Inquistor, minus the spells. More like a Witcher. Seems pretty cool. :)

Most of the times I've played I've been a Ranger, Monk, or Martial Adept.

[Kudaku]

True, but that goes for any character that likes meleeing and can cast cleric spells, regardless of class.

I don't think I said only Warpriests benefit from Fate's Favored, just that it's a great trait for them.

However, since you brought it up: I do think Fate's Favored is a better trait for Warpriests than most classes that like to cast cleric personal-target buff spells (off the top of my head Battle Clerics, Inquisitors, Paladins) because the Warpriest has a much higher probability of having those spells active during any given fight - whenever the other classes would need to waste a round on buffing, the Warpriest would use Fervor.

Oh, and Divine Favor and Divine Power buff all attack rolls and damage rolls, not just melee attacks.


I'm pretty good with monks, so the Brawler isn't that hard, and same with the Slayer. :) I'm not totally used to magic classes yet, and I just looked at the Investigator and it looks like Inquistor, minus the spells. More like a Witcher. Seems pretty cool. :)

Most of the times I've played I've been a Ranger, Monk, or Martial Adept.

You can find a list of class guides here (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2m612?Guide-to-the-Class-Guides). Some of them are a little out of date, but they contain a lot of good information. For the Arcanist I'd recommend the GOD wizard guides, the "God doesn't need a spellbook" guide for sorcerers, and the Magic in the Blood guide for picking a good exploit-bloodline.

[Elfkin_King]

Do you know if the Ranger combat style talent can be taken more than 3 times? (Initial, 6 and 10th level) or can it be taken as many times as there are abilities on that list?

[Kudaku]

Do you know if the Ranger combat style talent can be taken more than 3 times? (Initial, 6 and 10th level) or can it be taken as many times as there are abilities on that list?

The slayer selects a ranger combat style (such as archery or two-weapon combat) and gains a combat feat from the first feat list of that style. At 6th level, he may select this talent again and adds the 6th-level ranger combat feats from his chosen style to the list. At 10th level, he may select this talent again and add the 10th-level ranger combat feats from his chosen style to the list.

Based on how it is phrased I believe you can only take the talent three times.

[Starbuck_II]

Do you know if the Ranger combat style talent can be taken more than 3 times? (Initial, 6 and 10th level) or can it be taken as many times as there are abilities on that list?

Technically, no limit, but limited till 1st feat till 6th, 6th level combat style till 10th, etc.

You planning on have two 1st Combat ranger style feats?

[Elfkin_King]

The slayer selects a ranger combat style (such as archery or two-weapon combat) and gains a combat feat from the first feat list of that style. At 6th level, he may select this talent again and adds the 6th-level ranger combat feats from his chosen style to the list. At 10th level, he may select this talent again and add the 10th-level ranger combat feats from his chosen style to the list.

Based on how it is phrased I believe you can only take the talent three times.
Sounds like DM interpretation. But I agree with you, I'm just not sure if the RAW is worded with the correct intention.

Technically, no limit, but limited till 1st feat till 6th, 6th level combat style till 10th, etc.

You planning on have two 1st Combat ranger style feats? I like to know what my options are and whether or not I need to use real feats to get any I want/need for whatever. In a nut shell: probably, if I'm taking TWF, then yes
All of those feats are needed, and whenever I played a straight TWF ranger I took as many as I could where I could. The first set I always needed TWF and Double slice. Quick Draw was super helpful, for lots of things, and so Shield Bash ended up being the only combat style feat I never needed. Because I didn't use a shield.
And as far as the archery path goes, they were gotten so that I could take the Deep Wood Sniper PrC.

[Sayt]

If I recall correctly, you can only take a talent a single time unless otherwise stated by the talent. I believe it says as such in the Slayer Talent class ability, but I'm on my phone at the moment.

[Yanisa]

If I recall correctly, you can only take a talent a single time unless otherwise stated by the talent. I believe it says as such in the Slayer Talent class ability, but I'm on my phone at the moment.

Slayer Talents: As a slayer gains experience, he learns a number of talents that aid him and confound his foes. Starting at 2nd level, a slayer gains one slayer talent. He gains an additional slayer talent for every 2 levels thereafter. Unless otherwise noted, a slayer cannot select an individual talent more than once.

Slayer Combat Style talent
The slayer selects a ranger combat style (such as archery or two-weapon combat) and gains a combat feat from the first feat list of that style. At 6th level, he may select this talent again and adds the 6th-level ranger combat feats from his chosen style to the list. At 10th level, he may select this talent again and add the 10th-level ranger combat feats from his chosen style to the list.

So you are right, but regardless the talent itself specifies it can be taken multiple times, so no issue here. :smallwink:

[Kudaku]

There are two reasons why I personally believe it is meant to only be taken three times and "resets" at level 6 and 10:


Otherwise the Slayer is significantly better at the whole "I master this combat style" than the ranger is.
It also means the slayer potentially has the same feat progression as the fighter, since he can take the talent every other level.

However, rereading the Slayer combat style talent I realize they make no mention of whether or not Slayers can ignore prerequisites for combat style feats the way the Ranger can. I believe it is implied, but I can't say for sure. See below.

That said, we're working with playtest language - it hasn't been vetted or clarified and it's riddled with unintended mistakes (Warpriest weapon proficiency, anyone?) so it's hard to say what the RAI is.

Edit: Did a little bit of digging in the Slayer playtest discussion thread and found this gem (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qftp?Revised-Slayer-Discussion#29).

Edit Edit: Actually, it looks like the slayer is able to have nearly the same feat progression as a fighter at levels levels 1 through 10 even with the "three total" limit on the combat style talent. You are a bit more limited in your options though:

2. Combat Style
4. Combat Trick
6. Combat Style
8. Weapon Training
10. Combat Style

The slayer is looking really, really good as a "thug" class. I wish I'd had more time to study it during the playtest.

[Yanisa]

There are two reasons why I personally believe it is meant to only be taken three times and "resets" at level 6 and 10

Other the the clear obvious language stating it? The general rule is you cannot take a talent more then once. The talent itself lists two exceptions, at level 6 and at level 10 it can be taken again. Nothing to imply it taken be taken more ten 3 times... worse if you take it too literally if you don't take at precisely 6th level you miss your chance entirely, so you can't pick at level 8 for example.

There is no need for DM ruling and personal interpretation, or I am just crazy in thinking it is right there in the text. There are a lot of other issues you can find, like we both pointed out, but the amount of times you can select it is clear in the text. Right? :smallconfused:

[Kudaku]

Other the the clear obvious language stating it? The general rule is you cannot take a talent more then once. The talent itself lists two exceptions, at level 6 and at level 10 it can be taken again. Nothing to imply it taken be taken more ten 3 times... worse if you take it too literally if you don't take at precisely 6th level you miss your chance entirely, so you can't pick at level 8 for example.

There is no need for DM ruling and personal interpretation, or I am just crazy in thinking it is right there in the text. There are a lot of other issues you can find, like we both pointed out, but the amount of times you can select it is clear in the text. Right? :smallconfused:

That's how I interpreted it, but Starbuck seems to have a different view.

[Yanisa]

That's how I interpreted it, but Starbuck seems to have a different view.

Ah pardon me, you were trying to explain RAI. My original quote collection still stands for Starbuck then. Sorry.

You also seem to have discovered why people are angry at the Slayer and why it can easily out-shadow our poor black sheep rogue. (As if excising classes didn't already do that...) It is a far better combat rogue then any rogue can ever dream to be, even with less sneak attack damage. And creeps eerily close on the skill monkey role too. Slayer basically replaces rogue, not that the rogue wasn't already replaced. It is also one of the rare ACG classes I want to play, especially after the sour taste playing a rogue has left me with.

[Kudaku]

Ah pardon me, you were trying to explain RAI. My original quote collection still stands for Starbuck then. Sorry.

No worries :smallsmile:.


You also seem to have discovered why people are angry at the Slayer and why it can easily out-shadow our poor black sheep rogue. (As if excising classes didn't already do that...) It is a far better combat rogue then any rogue can ever dream to be, even with less sneak attack damage. And creeps eerily close on the skill monkey role too. Slayer basically replaces rogue, not that the rogue wasn't already replaced. It is also one of the rare ACG classes I want to play, especially after the sour taste playing a rogue has left me with.

In all honesty I hope and expect the rogue to get some really nice options in the ACG. If nothing else, then just by hanging on to the coat tails of the slayer and the investigator. If it doesn't get some better options, then it's the final nail in the rogue coffin.

It's already being outperformed by rangers, bards, alchemists and my new personal skill monkey - the evangelist wizard/witch. Adding the Slayer and the Investigator to the lineup adds insult to injury.

[Yanisa]

In all honesty I hope and expect the rogue to get some really nice options in the ACG. If nothing else, then just by hanging on to the coat tails of the slayer and the investigator. If it doesn't get some better options, then it's the final nail in the rogue coffin.

It's already being outperformed by rangers, bards, alchemists and my new personal skill monkey - the evangelist wizard/witch. Adding the Slayer and the Investigator to the lineup adds insult to injury.


This was the final nail in the rogues coffin (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/campaign-traits/mummy-s-mask/trap-finder). ACG is probably the dude dancing on it's grave. :smalltongue:

At first I was kinda disappointed at the whole "merge two classes into one" gimmick of ACG. Nowadays I see it as a blessing, we can get ride of the rogue, monk and fighter and get something that is bit more in line with paladins, rangers and barbarians, it was the first time I see something that helped players to new options for martial characters without having ifs, or buts, or just being worse in practice then on paper. Then again we got Arcanist... Like we need that...

I will reserve true judgement for when the book comes out, but I don't expect a single bone for the old classes. Maybe some new feats or spells but I don't see any new archetypes or other options for the existing classes.

[Kurald Galain]

I do think Fate's Favored is a better trait for Warpriests than most classes that like to cast cleric personal-target buff spells (off the top of my head Battle Clerics, Inquisitors, Paladins) because the Warpriest has a much higher probability of having those spells active during any given fight - whenever the other classes would need to waste a round on buffing, the Warpriest would use Fervor.

Aha. I agree that the swift action casting makes the difference here.

[Kudaku]

This was the final nail in the rogues coffin (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/campaign-traits/mummy-s-mask/trap-finder). ACG is probably the dude dancing on it's grave. :smalltongue:

I see your point, though I think many people don't realize that trait is campaign-specific.


At first I was kinda disappointed at the whole "merge two classes into one" gimmick of ACG. Nowadays I see it as a blessing, we can get ride of the rogue, monk and fighter and get something that is bit more in line with paladins, rangers and barbarians, it was the first time I see something that helped players to new options for martial characters without having ifs, or buts, or just being worse in practice then on paper. Then again we got Arcanist... Like we need that...

The more I look at it the more I think the Slayer is a very well-made class, I'm a huge fan of it. I really like Warpriest though I think it's still missing those little touches that truly makes it stand out. I'm not quite as crazy about some of the other offerings. Bloodrager has tons of flavour but the actual class is a little underwhelming - arcane spells tend to suffer if combined with low caster levels, and the Bloodrager is playing catchup right from the get-go. I don't see the appeal of the hunter at all, but that may in part be because I strongly dislike Teamwork feats. If the ACG provides some better TW options then I'll happily reconsider.

After playtesting an Arcanist for about five levels, I'm a big fan of the class. It solved my main issue with prepared spellcasters (excessive bookkeeping) but doesn't perform dramatically better than the former. IMO the delayed spell progression and limited spells/day makes it a meaningful choice between the two. I do think the Arcanist is a bit on the strong side compared to its parent classes (especially the sorcerer), but I definitely consider it salvageable without changing the spellcasting mechanic. A stronger focus on the split between Charisma and Intelligence would go a long way, since at the moment an Arcanist with 10 charisma will work perfectly well.

[Elfkin_King]

Other the the clear obvious language stating it? The general rule is you cannot take a talent more then once. The talent itself lists two exceptions, at level 6 and at level 10 it can be taken again. Nothing to imply it taken be taken more ten 3 times... worse if you take it too literally if you don't take at precisely 6th level you miss your chance entirely, so you can't pick at level 8 for example.

There is no need for DM ruling and personal interpretation, or I am just crazy in thinking it is right there in the text. There are a lot of other issues you can find, like we both pointed out, but the amount of times you can select it is clear in the text. Right? :smallconfused:



That said, we're working with playtest language - it hasn't been vetted or clarified and it's riddled with unintended mistakes (Warpriest weapon proficiency, anyone?) so it's hard to say what the RAI is.

And monks aren't proficient with the unarmed strike, by RAW either (specific list of weapons, but it doesn't say all simple weapons or unarmed strike, despite having improved unarmed strike, but many other classes get feats without meeting the per-requisites).

That being said-- for the sake of being the devils advocate-- Kudaku makes a good point: It's playtest language. It's riddled with typos and unclear text, since it's basically just a rough draft.

Now, all that aside, what's the deal with the Investigator? At first glance it almost seems like a mostly-non-magical Inquisitor, but (and maybe this comes from my lack of experience with alchemists or rogues) it seems a bit more lackluster than that. Any examples of those that make it viable as more than a skill-monkey?

[Kudaku]

The Investigator went through a fair bit of revision IN the playtest feedback thread, I'd do a search for Stephen's posts in that thread before making up my mind about it. I know for sure they tweaked the "studied combat" features significantly.

[squiggit]

The investigator is known to be weak and supposedly is getting a bunch of improvements before release.


At first I was kinda disappointed at the whole "merge two classes into one" gimmick of ACG
This was my thought at first. Then after looking around for a while it seems to do a very ToB style "we ****ed up this class, hand a replacement" thing. And most of the classes are honestly pretty well made.

The only one that really leaves me scratching my head is the hunter, because I'm just not sure what it adds to the game. Both fluff and mechanically it feels like a ranger. So why isn't it just an Archetype? Trade personal power for more animal companion strength, because that's exactly what the class is.

In its place they could have added something weirder like a ranger/sorcerer or a Druid/wizard or... Something more straight forward like a paladin/bard.

Sorta felt the same way with the Arcanist at first but it's for some really slick design and it's an arcane caster with a suite of class features, which I thought was taboo.

Thematically I really like the brawler, but I'm not sure if +1 to CMB is enough to make maneuvers workable and Awesome Blow makes me cringe. Also a little disappointed it's just another full attacker.

[Psyren]

This was the final nail in the rogues coffin (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/campaign-traits/mummy-s-mask/trap-finder). ACG is probably the dude dancing on it's grave. :smalltongue:

I'll never understand this kind of hyperbole. Yes, there are classes that are better at doing the rogue's thing than the rogue is. 3.5 had them too - Factotum, Psychic Rogue, Beguiler, Swordsage, Bard, even Master Spellthief, not to mention PrCs that pay lip-service to roguedom before running off and doing their own thing like Assassin and Chameleon. By this metric the Rogue's been dead for nearly a decade; at the very least, its demise certainly didn't start with PF.

A rogue can still be competent at its job. It isn't the best skillmonkey and probably never will be again, but it still is one.

[Elfkin_King]

The Investigator went through a fair bit of revision IN the playtest feedback thread, I'd do a search for Stephen's posts in that thread before making up my mind about it. I know for sure they tweaked the "studied combat" features significantly.
Yeah, I had the wrong idea of what the Investigator was for some reason. Studied Combat isn't meant to work, apparently, outside of AoO unless you have an INT of 18 or higher, and even then it's only 2 rounds, one of which is spent setting it up. :/ I was kinda excited for that until I understood what that meant

The investigator is known to be weak and supposedly is getting a bunch of improvements before release.


This was my thought at first. Then after looking around for a while it seems to do a very ToB style "we ****ed up this class, hand a replacement" thing. And most of the classes are honestly pretty well made.

The only one that really leaves me scratching my head is the hunter, because I'm just not sure what it adds to the game. Both fluff and mechanically it feels like a ranger. So why isn't it just an Archetype? Trade personal power for more animal companion strength, because that's exactly what the class is.

In its place they could have added something weirder like a ranger/sorcerer or a Druid/wizard or... Something more straight forward like a paladin/bard.

Sorta felt the same way with the Arcanist at first but it's for some really slick design and it's an arcane caster with a suite of class features, which I thought was taboo.

Thematically I really like the brawler, but I'm not sure if +1 to CMB is enough to make maneuvers workable and Awesome Blow makes me cringe. Also a little disappointed it's just another full attacker.

I like the Arcanist because I couldn't ever bring myself to be comfortable with the specific spell slot selections (prepare fireball 3 times if you want to cast it more than twice, just in case) and it's great for that change alone.

And I like Awesome Blow more than I liked Stunning First. Awesome Blow can be used tactically, rather than for what it actually does. (Ledge, wall, etc) because a 10 ft push isn't really much, but could be just what's needed.

What about the Swashbuckler? That class IS just a melee Gunslinger. Inigo Montoya? 3 Musketeers? Jarlaxle?

[Yanisa]

This was my thought at first. Then after looking around for a while it seems to do a very ToB style "we ****ed up this class, hand a replacement" thing. And most of the classes are honestly pretty well made.

The only one that really leaves me scratching my head is the hunter, because I'm just not sure what it adds to the game. Both fluff and mechanically it feels like a ranger. So why isn't it just an Archetype? Trade personal power for more animal companion strength, because that's exactly what the class is.

Yeah when the first announcement came up and my friend laughed our asses of at the idea of a Ranger/Druid... A ranger is basically a combat focused druid already, how can you fit a class between that?
But it fills a niche that hasn't been filled before. Nature themed half caster, aka melee focused with 6 spell-levels, we have a couple of arcane and religion-divine, but not nature-divine. But that is also more personal because my own campaign is themed around nature vs divine vs arcane.
Still is it a small niche and silly concept to boot

Likewise I glare angrily at the shaman not being a spontaneous caster, I need a spontaneous nature themed caster with 9 spell levels. :smalltongue:



In its place they could have added something weirder like a ranger/sorcerer or a Druid/wizard or... Something more straight forward like a paladin/bard.
Bard/Paladin...? You mean a singing paladin? That sounds awesome! A palalaladin. (I think I just slapped myself for that horrible pun.)


Sorta felt the same way with the Arcanist at first but it's for some really slick design and it's an arcane caster with a suite of class features, which I thought was taboo.

Thematically I really like the brawler, but I'm not sure if +1 to CMB is enough to make maneuvers workable and Awesome Blow makes me cringe. Also a little disappointed it's just another full attacker.

Arcanist is meh to me, after playing a 3.5 wizards for 3 years now, and still going, I am a bit done with arcane magic. And I already hated how easily pathfinder wizards can be almost spontaneous casters, they shouldn't made it into a class too. I still glare at it with distrust, but I should give it a rest, I don't think my party will play one soon.

As for the brawler, didn't caught a lot of wind on that feller, but it was sold to me as "monk, but better". But that doesn't sound hard to make. Switching feats sounds cool, but also as a lot of stuff to keep in mind. It almost can as bookkeeping as spellcasting. Also a lot of planning in the character

For me, I really fell for the bloodrager and the skald, although I don't hear a lot about hem and they might be a bit lackluster. Especially skald needs a melee heavy focused party with barbarians to really shine. Bloodrager just talks to the side of my that wants to play dragon disciple but hates the fact it looses spellcasting.

I think I pretty much warmed up to the idea on ACG, but grrrr Arcanist, grrrr!

[Kudaku]

Yeah, I had the wrong idea of what the Investigator was for some reason. Studied Combat isn't meant to work, apparently, outside of AoO unless you have an INT of 18 or higher, and even then it's only 2 rounds, one of which is spent setting it up. :/ I was kinda excited for that until I understood what that meant

This is exactly what I'm talking about actually. Studied Combat was revised in the revised Investigator feedback thread to the following:


Studied Combat: the insight bonus to attack rolls against the target of your studied strike lasts for a number of rounds equal to the investigator's Intelligence modifier, or until he chooses to make a studied strike, whichever happens first.

Basically you want to use Studied Combat for the attack bonus, then when it's about to finish you make a studied strike. It's a bit like a combo in a beat-em-up - you line up a series of moderately strong blows and finish with the crowd-pleaser.

There's a bunch of other revisions that didn't make it to the front post, but how "official" they are is somewhat questionable. You can find the designer's posts on Studied Combat here (http://paizo.com/search?q=studied+strike&what=object&includeUnrated=true&includeUnavailable=true&person=v5748aid7qa2x).

[Ssalarn]

Arcanist rocks because he has the best counter-spelling mechanic in game, something that was desperately needed since counterspelling is probably the most inefficient and cumbersome system in game. His spellcasting is very powerful though, not sure how well it really balances compared to the parent classes.

Shaman was a big favorite of mine, though I do think they should have been a spontaneous caster.

Hunter I'm excited about on a couple fronts. First, because I love teamwork feats and I really like that there's a class where direct synergy between the AC and character is really the focus. It creates a lot of tactical options that were hard, if not impossible, to execute previously. I've also heard rumors that there will be some sweet hunter archetypes that create some very cool character options.

Bloodrager is the execution of ideas I've wondered how to execute successfully since Neverwinter Nights, so that's cool.


So far they haven't released all of the options that are going to accompany the classes, so it's hard to speculate too closely on what might be the best optimization paths. From what I've heard from people close to the project, there's going to be a lot of solid gold mixed into the new feats and archetypes for the new classes.

[Elfkin_King]

This is exactly what I'm talking about actually. Studied Combat was revised in the revised Investigator feedback thread to the following:



Basically you want to use Studied Combat for the attack bonus, then when it's about to finish you make a studied strike. It's a bit like a combo in a beat-em-up - you line up a series of moderately strong blows and finish with the crowd-pleaser.

There's a bunch of other revisions that didn't make it to the front post, but how "official" they are is somewhat questionable. You can find the designer's posts on Studied Combat here (http://paizo.com/search?q=studied+strike&what=object&includeUnrated=true&includeUnavailable=true&person=v5748aid7qa2x).
Yeah, what I had seen before was him confirming that it WAS supposed to be the way I had said (duration = 1/2 INT mod rounds, which would mean that for 2 rounds you needed an 18 in INT, and he implied that anything less than that was making INT a dump stat, which I saw a lot of people get upset about very very quickly. I didn't have time to keep digging to find if that was ever fixed, and I didn't read the first post too deeply... just sorta skimmed and not very well. xD

Arcanist rocks because he has the best counter-spelling mechanic in game, something that was desperately needed since counterspelling is probably the most inefficient and cumbersome system in game. His spellcasting is very powerful though, not sure how well it really balances compared to the parent classes.

Shaman was a big favorite of mine, though I do think they should have been a spontaneous caster.

Hunter I'm excited about on a couple fronts. First, because I love teamwork feats and I really like that there's a class where direct synergy between the AC and character is really the focus. It creates a lot of tactical options that were hard, if not impossible, to execute previously. I've also heard rumors that there will be some sweet hunter archetypes that create some very cool character options.

Bloodrager is the execution of ideas I've wondered how to execute successfully since Neverwinter Nights, so that's cool.


So far they haven't released all of the options that are going to accompany the classes, so it's hard to speculate too closely on what might be the best optimization paths. From what I've heard from people close to the project, there's going to be a lot of solid gold mixed into the new feats and archetypes for the new classes.
That's another thing I'm excited for: Archetypes. I learned tabletop on DnD3.5, and so the whole archetype thing was foreign to me for awhile. And the fact that a lot of PF PrC seem lackluster compared to the 3.5 ones was a bit disappointing to me. But 3.5 was all about the PrC's where PF seems more about the Archetypes. Between the two I'm not sure which is better, I'm leaning towards the Archs, but I still like the option of 3.5 PrC's (Deep Wood Sniper was awesome, especially if you played an Averial or some other race that could fly at some point.)
I wonder what Slayer, Brawler, and Swashbuckler Arch's there's going to be. :3 *bounces with excitement*

Edit: For some reason a two-handed Slayer and/or Swashbuckler Archetype sounds pretty cool. (I love the idea of Scythe-wielders, for some reason.) Call him a Berserker or something, but I'm also afraid that sounds like it comes too close to being a Barbarian... mmmmm

Or Maybe a TWF Swashbuckler. I mean, technically you CAN do that already, but there are a few Deeds that don't blend well with that (basically anything that isn't passive, with one or two exceptions) maybe call that one a Duelist? I love the idea of Panache/grit and it's nice that so many of the passive deeds (provided you have at least 1 Panache point) would work effectively with TWF with light weapons (a Wakizashi for example, since it's already got the 18-20 crit range, and after 4th level it's 15-20 without spending the feat. This effectively allows the Swashbuckler to rack up and use panache at an alarming rate, which you should be able to do anyway if you are using one of the higher crit range weapons such as a Rapier), mostly because I prefer not to sword-and-board if possible, even if it is just a buckler. :P

Even before that archetype (which is just a dream/hope right now) do you think it's a viable way to go? Sure, using some of the deeds would make having the second weapon pointless, or even at a slight negative (-2 to attack) But the constant passives should still make it great because it would work on both weapons, even if I would be having to take those TWF feats on my own, the Swashbuckler has the feats to do it (3/5 levels gets a feat) and a Swashbucklers main stats are Dex, Cha, and Con anyway. Str and Wisdom seem to be total dump stats here (as much as I cringe at dump stats). :P

[NightbringerGGZ]

Most of the PF PRCs are just flat out horrible when compared to base classes. There's a small (but growing) list of more recently published PRCs that are actually worth using, and the odd thing is they're mostly built to make combos of two classes work. That's what confused me most about the ACG, the core concept seemed to be a repeat of functionality being added through PRCs.

Also Stephen Radney-MacFarland iterated quite heavily on Studied Combat in the revised feedback thread. I did a bunch of testing and he was quite responsive to everybody's posts. They're making Studied Combat last for a number of rounds per Int Mod instead of 1/2 Int Mod. You get a small (but scaling) bonus to damage while it SC is up, this stacks with the Studied Strike damage. The activation action got moved down a step and as early as level 4 you can pick a talent that reduces the action cost further (swift action if I remember right). Finally they're thinking of letting you spend uses of Inspiration to be able to target somebody additional times beyond the once/24 hours limit.

If the final version winds up close to that then the ability is actually pretty good. My play test Investigators had pretty massive bonuses to their To-Hit rolls, and the damage wound up being pretty decent for most tables.

[Elfkin_King]

Most of the PF PRCs are just flat out horrible when compared to base classes. There's a small (but growing) list of more recently published PRCs that are actually worth using, and the odd thing is they're mostly built to make combos of two classes work. That's what confused me most about the ACG, the core concept seemed to be a repeat of functionality being added through PRCs.

Also Stephen Radney-MacFarland iterated quite heavily on Studied Combat in the revised feedback thread. I did a bunch of testing and he was quite responsive to everybody's posts. They're making Studied Combat last for a number of rounds per Int Mod instead of 1/2 Int Mod. You get a small (but scaling) bonus to damage while it SC is up, this stacks with the Studied Strike damage. The activation action got moved down a step and as early as level 4 you can pick a talent that reduces the action cost further (swift action if I remember right). Finally they're thinking of letting you spend uses of Inspiration to be able to target somebody additional times beyond the once/24 hours limit.

If the final version winds up close to that then the ability is actually pretty good. My play test Investigators had pretty massive bonuses to their To-Hit rolls, and the damage wound up being pretty decent for most tables.

That makes me feel better. :) I just recently (in the past couple of hours) saw the change to Studied Combat, and I had just gotten the playtest PDF the other day.

I hear there should be things concerning TWF Swash's in the actual book, which is exciting. I spent the better part of a half hour trying to figure out a way to use TWF effectively without them, and I think I've found a way: Be Human, since it's got a BONUS FEAT as a racial, and it specifically states how at 4th level and every time you gain a Bonus Feat through the Swash that you can exchange an old one for a new one, and unless you're a strong-heart halfling or a human, I don't see that first bit being viable until later. That being said, you could switch out a feat for TWF AND Double Slice, if you have the stats for it, which I don't see why you shouldn't. Although, the STR bit from Double Slice may be a moot point since STR isn't as big a deal as Dex is, since you get weapon finesse for free.

[NightbringerGGZ]

That makes me feel better. :) I just recently (in the past couple of hours) saw the change to Studied Combat, and I had just gotten the playtest PDF the other day.

I hear there should be things concerning TWF Swash's in the actual book, which is exciting. I spent the better part of a half hour trying to figure out a way to use TWF effectively without them, and I think I've found a way: Be Human, since it's got a BONUS FEAT as a racial, and it specifically states how at 4th level and every time you gain a Bonus Feat through the Swash that you can exchange an old one for a new one, and unless you're a strong-heart halfling or a human, I don't see that first bit being viable until later. That being said, you could switch out a feat for TWF AND Double Slice, if you have the stats for it, which I don't see why you shouldn't. Although, the STR bit from Double Slice may be a moot point since STR isn't as big a deal as Dex is, since you get weapon finesse for free.

Personally I think the Swashbuckler is the worst of the classes in the ACG, and that was largely due to the developer who was working on it. I'm praying that the class gets a complete rework (from the core concept up) prior to the book coming out. In fact, prior to the Crane Wing nerf (which most tables ignore), pretty much any other dex build using existing classes, archetypes and even PRCs worked better than this class. I hate to pile on the guy, but I really am not a fan of SKR as a game designer/developer. (And please, let's not turn this into a SKR hate thread)

[Kudaku]

Personally I think the Swashbuckler is the worst of the classes in the ACG, and that was largely due to the developer who was working on it. I'm praying that the class gets a complete rework (from the core concept up) prior to the book coming out. In fact, prior to the Crane Wing nerf (which most tables ignore), pretty much any other dex build using existing classes, archetypes and even PRCs worked better than this class. I hate to pile on the guy, but I really am not a fan of SKR as a game designer/developer. (And please, let's not turn this into a SKR hate thread)

Could you elaborate a bit on what makes the Swashbuckler bad? Back in the playtest I skimmed the class and moved on, it didn't really catch my attention. The one thing I liked about it was that it seemed to make dex-based builds viable with weapons that don't qualify for weapon finesse, like spears.

[Psyren]

Most of the PF PRCs are just flat out horrible when compared to base classes. There's a small (but growing) list of more recently published PRCs that are actually worth using, and the odd thing is they're mostly built to make combos of two classes work. That's what confused me most about the ACG, the core concept seemed to be a repeat of functionality being added through PRCs.

That's simple actually - PrCs typically don't get going until well into mid-levels. Hybrid classes like the Magus and Inquisitor can get going from level 1. A class that feels like a hybrid at the levels that most games are played at is going to be more appealing and thus sell more books.

[Ssalarn]

That's simple actually - PrCs typically don't get going until well into mid-levels. Hybrid classes like the Magus and Inquisitor can get going from level 1. A class that feels like a hybrid at the levels that most games are played at is going to be more appealing and thus sell more books.

Word yo. The problem with Prestige Classes is that they often don't give you the tools to tie your disparate class elements together until 7th level or later, and unlike in earlier iterations of the game, there's not all of these dead levels that make you desperate to jump onto the first PrC with a pretty face and packet of class abilities.
Since one of the stated design goals of Pathfinder was to trim down on multiclass power-gaming and give you solid reasons to play a single class through from 1-20, it's not much of a surprise that PrC's, pretty much the ultimate culmination of multiclass power-gaming, seem somewhat underwhelming, especially when there's a wealth of base classes that embody a lot of the gish and cross-martial builds people were going for right from level 1.

That being said, there's a growing number of really cool and really solid PrC's available in Pathfinder, and many of the archetypes out there fill the role that PrC's used to play right from character creation. It's less that PrC's are powered down or anything, and more that the rest of the game grew up around them and now they really are just flavor-rich options instead of quantitative power increases.

[Baroncognito]

Could you elaborate a bit on what makes the Swashbuckler bad? Back in the playtest I skimmed the class and moved on, it didn't really catch my attention. The one thing I liked about it was that it seemed to make dex-based builds viable with weapons that don't qualify for weapon finesse, like spears.

The last version of Swashbuckler they posted was severely limited because so many of their options required using a swift action (or an immediate action that eats swift actions) and because, while charisma was slightly more important than the previous build, it was still one of the best drop options, especially since the "add your charisma to saves" option was limited to once or twice a day and required a swift action to activate.

[NightbringerGGZ]

That's simple actually - PrCs typically don't get going until well into mid-levels. Hybrid classes like the Magus and Inquisitor can get going from level 1. A class that feels like a hybrid at the levels that most games are played at is going to be more appealing and thus sell more books.


Word yo. The problem with Prestige Classes is that they often don't give you the tools to tie your disparate class elements together until 7th level or later, and unlike in earlier iterations of the game, there's not all of these dead levels that make you desperate to jump onto the first PrC with a pretty face and packet of class abilities.
Since one of the stated design goals of Pathfinder was to trim down on multiclass power-gaming and give you solid reasons to play a single class through from 1-20, it's not much of a surprise that PrC's, pretty much the ultimate culmination of multiclass power-gaming, seem somewhat underwhelming, especially when there's a wealth of base classes that embody a lot of the gish and cross-martial builds people were going for right from level 1.

That being said, there's a growing number of really cool and really solid PrC's available in Pathfinder, and many of the archetypes out there fill the role that PrC's used to play right from character creation. It's less that PrC's are powered down or anything, and more that the rest of the game grew up around them and now they really are just flavor-rich options instead of quantitative power increases.

Good points. I guess I never really saw multi-classing as power gaming though. Personally I think people put too much emphasis on the importance off playing a particular class. I approach my character design with a concept and see what I can do to make that concept work. Sometimes that can be done with one class and an archetype, sometimes it involves a really odd combination of classes, archetypes and PrCs.


Could you elaborate a bit on what makes the Swashbuckler bad? Back in the playtest I skimmed the class and moved on, it didn't really catch my attention. The one thing I liked about it was that it seemed to make dex-based builds viable with weapons that don't qualify for weapon finesse, like spears.

So first off, I think the class does a terrible job of providing mechanics that fit in with some of the archetypal characters that come to mind with this class. There's some (rather poor) attempts at the pure combat mechanics, but nothing that brings in the witty word play and mockery from characters like Zoro or the cast of the Prince Bride.

Second, I have a fundamental problem with classes not working well right out of the gate. It is arguablly ok (or at least unavoidable) for particular character concepts to require a few levels before they work mechanically, but an entire Base Class should core functionality at first level. The Swashbuckler should have a non-strength based damage boost starting at level 1, especially when this is an option already available to several other melee fighting classes.

Third, too many of the Swashbuckler Deeds are copies of the Gunslinger Deeds. I have two problems with this. First, it's just boring and uninspired, especially when you consider how so many other classes tried to put a new spin onto old mechanics. Second, many of these Deeds just aren't all that impressive or are have too few situations where they'd be useful to begin with. Things that were bad the first go around aren't going to be better if you slap a new name on them.

Fourth, new deeds and mechanics aren't as good as mechanics that already exist in the game. Fighter and Bard can both get Dex to damage at level 1. Anybody can get it by level 3 and all humans can have it at first level. Sure you're restricted to using a Scimitar, but the need for crit-fishing to restore your Panache leaves the Swashbuckler wanting to wield a Scimitar anywa. Parry and Riposte wind up consuming a ton of resources, when better mechanics already do the same job through feats and PrCs.

And I have more complaints, but I'll leave it at that for now. =P

[Baroncognito]

Anybody can get it by level 3 and all humans can have it at first level.

How do you get two ranks in dance by first level?

[Sayt]

[...]Fourth, new deeds and mechanics aren't as good as mechanics that already exist in the game. Fighter and Bard can both get Dex to damage at level 1. Anybody can get it by level 3 and all humans can have it at first level. Sure you're restricted to using a Scimitar, but the need for crit-fishing to restore your Panache leaves the Swashbuckler wanting to wield a Scimitar anyway. Parry and Riposte wind up consuming a ton of resources, when better mechanics already do the same job through feats and PrCs.

And I have more complaints, but I'll leave it at that for now. =P

Precise Strike can cover the ground until you get to an Agile weapon, and comes in at the same time as Dervish dance, for a little less damage, but which scales with your level. (There's a small list of creatures which are immune, but it's not going to be a consistent pain-in-the-anatomy) And there's supposedly a dex-to-damage feat coming in the ACG, though I can't remember who said that.

And when you get the opportunity to pick up Signiture Deed for Opportune Parry it becomes much cheaper to parry.


The last version of Swashbuckler they posted was severely limited because so many of their options required using a swift action (or an immediate action that eats swift actions) and because, while charisma was slightly more important than the previous build, it was still one of the best drop options, especially since the "add your charisma to saves" option was limited to once or twice a day and required a swift action to activate.

3/day at second level, up to 7/day. The Action economy I'll grant, but the limited times per day is something I don't quite buy.

[Larkas]

A rogue can still be competent at its job. It isn't the best skillmonkey and probably never will be again, but it still is one.

To be honest, it still had a little niche protection in 3.5: it was the most viable skillmonkey in the PHB. The many changes in PF (including, but not limited to, skill consolidation, cross-class skill costs and trapfinding changes) made the class mostly redundant/subpar by the CRB (though I won't say COMPLETELY redundant/subpar). As the system progresses, it becomes EVEN MORE redundant/subpar.

I'm not saying this is actually a problem, though, as I actually like the changes. It's just that it's becoming harder to justify being a "pure" Rogue out of the gate by the day. Which is why these hybrid classes are so bittersweet: on one hand, they are great options, on the other, they are new reasons not to play a Rogue.

Again, this isn't necessarily bad. It's the sign of an evolving system. I just hope the developers see this and don't keep using the Rogue (or even the Fighter, for that matter) as a balancing point for "mundane" characters. This may even be reason to go ahead and be bolder with archetypes for the class.

Which brings me to my own archetypes for the Rogue (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?340115-Sword-amp-Sorcery-for-Sneaky-Scoundrels). Still open to critiques, if anyone's interested. =x

[squiggit]

My problem with the swashbuckler was that a lot of its options weren't very exciting or created new gameplay paradigms. There's some cool fluff but mechanically it doesn't do a lot for me. It's still somewhere between "kinda eh trick fighter" or "full attack DPR turret" like a gunslinger.

Also while a swashbuckler with a gun is a popular image.. so are ones that don't use guns. I would have guessed a fighter/rogue base class over a fighter/gunslinger at the name "swashbuckler".

Then again, the idea of Investigators being unable to use guns at all sort of bothers me too. Or hell, not having unarmed options (because studied combat feels like someone at paizo was watching the new-ish sherlock movies).


And I like Awesome Blow more than I liked Stunning First. Awesome Blow can be used tactically, rather than for what it actually does. (Ledge, wall, etc) because a 10 ft push isn't really much, but could be just what's needed.

Oh don't get me wrong. Awesome Blow is cool. Just "Make a standard attack and maybe do 1d6 extra damage" is not very impressive outside a few niches. Especially at level 13.


But it fills a niche that hasn't been filled before. Nature themed half caster
Oh I understand the idea there just... that sounds like a ranger more than a new class.


Bard/Paladin...? You mean a singing paladin? That sounds awesome! A palalaladin.
Well Bardsader is a popular thing around here and I was just imaginging the mix of the paladin's auras and support spells and the bard's auras and support and BFC and I'm imagining this "lead by example" warlord-y character charging in to battle, singing songs, and... other stuff I guess.

[Larkas]

Well Bardsader is a popular thing around here and I was just imaginging the mix of the paladin's auras and support spells and the bard's auras and support and BFC and I'm imagining this "lead by example" warlord-y character charging in to battle, singing songs, and... other stuff I guess.

Sooooo... Marshal (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030906b)? :smallbiggrin:

[squiggit]

Sooooo... Marshal (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030906b)? :smallbiggrin:
If that class was longer than 2 levels, yes.

Think martial, or if you've played 4e, their warlord. Only more magic-y.

[Larkas]

If that class was longer than 2 levels, yes.

Think martial, or if you've played 4e, their warlord. Only more magic-y.

Oh, I had got it! It's just that the Marshal is a perfect fit conceptually, if not mechanically. It could use being remade somehow, and would fit the paladin/bard design space perfectly :smallsmile:

[NightbringerGGZ]

Precise Strike can cover the ground until you get to an Agile weapon, and comes in at the same time as Dervish dance, for a little less damage, but which scales with your level. (There's a small list of creatures which are immune, but it's not going to be a consistent pain-in-the-anatomy) And there's supposedly a dex-to-damage feat coming in the ACG, though I can't remember who said that.

And when you get the opportunity to pick up Signiture Deed for Opportune Parry it becomes much cheaper to parry.



3/day at second level, up to 7/day. The Action economy I'll grant, but the limited times per day is something I don't quite buy.

Signature Deed isn't available until level 11. That's quite a long wait in most games (and towards the end of a character's career in many). Dervish Dance can be gained at levels 1, 2 or 3 depending on your build. Precise Strike comes online at level 3 for yes, just a little less damage provided you play by the silly numbers mechanic associated with grit pools. Agile doesn't come online until around level 7 with standard wealth by level.

I don't consider this a huge problem for most classes, as they have other abilities to bring to the table. The problem is that the Swashbuckler is basically a less versatile fighter, and it kinda sucks at its only function until around level 5. Shoot, a Swashbuckler can't even pick up Dervish Dance at first level since you don't actually get Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat. Instead you get an ability that functions like Weapon Finesse, which I find rather suspicious considering the disdain SKR had for DD as a feat.

As for Charmed Life, the problem isn't the number of uses per day. The problem is that it conflicts with all those Swift Action deeds that are supposed to be your primary class features.

[Yanisa]

Oh I understand the idea there just... that sounds like a ranger more than a new class.
Well a Ranger is to a Druid, what a Paladin is to a Cleric. The divine/nature "champion" with "weak" spell casting but a strong combat focus. (Especially in my homebrew world, where the Nature Gods use Rangers as other Gods use Paladins, to smite enemies!)

So a Hunter should be to a Druid, what an Inquisitor is to Cleric. Thinking about it, with the teamwork feats it does look a lot like an Inquisitor. But sadly the hunter is lacking a lot, especially compared to Inquisitor. (And other gish classes like the Magus and heck even the Warpriest.)

[Elfkin_King]

You do realize this was supposed to be a thread about the advanced classes (which are still in playtest) not one based around bashing on them and going on and on about how each one sucks, or how some class or another sucks or is useless.

This is not a thread to hate on classes, or to call any of them useless. Each class is designed to fit a basic niche. If someone is asking about information or clarification on a class, especially one that was worded AMBIGUOUSLY do not treat them as if they were stupid.

If you have something positive to contribute, or constructive, please do so. And don't be so closed minded. I've known people who add more to the party as a monk (with no other class levels) than anyone else could as anything else.

For example: I've been grounded by my DM for playing a monk (often called the weakest class, bar none) because I know how to out damage everyone else.
Besides, its about having fun. Its a game. Don't tell anyone that what they enjoy sucks because you yourself couldn't stand it, or a mass conformist group decided that it was underpowered. So what. If you enjoy something you'll find creative ways to make it work.

.... I was only asking for suggestions on how to work with the advanced classes, since they are brand new to me and I've only ever played MONKS, RANGERS, or MARTIAL ADEPT classes. Personally, I can't play a wizard and enjoy it, but I could a sorcerer.

Long story short: Stay on topic, don't bash. Pointing out issues is fine, or just say "I don't know how to work with or around that." Or don't post at all if you don't have anything on topic to contribute.

[Sayt]

If I recall correctly, swashbuckler's finess specifically counts as weapon finess? I don't have the document in front of me

Furthermore, dervish dance specifically requires 3 2 ranks in Perform (Dance), and I'm not aware of any ways to cheat in ranks to get it at 1. (Huh, I thought it was 3 ranks)

As for being less versatile... That's the point? It's a specialized class for a specific fighting style. There aren't, to my knowledge, any ways of doing the charismatic Einhander swordsperson better.

Edit: I haven't had a chance to play one yet, but ive built a swashbuckler which has, at lazy some decent ac and damage, before amounting for riposting. Is definately spring for Mind-buttressing Armor, and a mithral buckler. Serpentfolk are also amazing at it at higher levels (you only end up losing two levels.

I have had the opportunity to play a hobgoblin Slayer. A 15-20 crit weapon, outflank and opportunist talent are quite synergistic, especially when you have a twf crtitfisher ally.

Editus Secundus: if your gm allows third party (specifically Dream scarred press) material, deadly agility gets you dev ti damage at first level, and Buckler Bash lets the Swashbuckler two weapon fight, which is just about mana from heaven.

[Elfkin_King]

If I recall correctly, swashbuckler's finess specifically counts as weapon finess? I don't have the document in front of me

Furthermore, dervish dance specifically requires 3 2 ranks in Perform (Dance), and I'm not aware of any ways to cheat in ranks to get it at 1. (Huh, I thought it was 3 ranks)

As for being less versatile... That's the point? It's a specialized class for a specific fighting style. There aren't, to my knowledge, any ways of doing the charismatic Einhander swordsperson better.

Edit: I haven't had a chance to play one yet, but ive built a swashbuckler which has, at lazy some decent ac and damage, before amounting for riposting. Is definately spring for Mind-buttressing Armor, and a mithral buckler. Serpentfolk are also amazing at it at higher levels (you only end up losing two levels.

I have had the opportunity to play a hobgoblin Slayer. A 15-20 crit weapon, outflank and opportunist talent are quite synergistic, especially when you have a twf crtitfisher ally.

Editus Secundus: if your gm allows third party (specifically Dream scarred press) material, deadly agility gets you dev ti damage at first level, and Buckler Bash lets the Swashbuckler two weapon fight, which is just about mana from heaven.

Yes it does, which is nice. :3 And starting at 5th the class automatically gives you Improved Critical (To help the crit fishers :3) I'll have to look up that race and those items. :3
I have always wanted to try out a gunslinger, but the way firearms worked always made me nervous. But that's probably just because I didn't look into it enough to really understand them.

And no, this GM I'm with isn't allowing third party stuff at all. Which makes me sad, because Dream Scarred Press has some really good (and balanced) stuff.

[malonkey1]

Oh don't get me wrong. Awesome Blow is cool. Just "Make a standard attack and maybe do 1d6 extra damage" is not very impressive outside a few niches. Especially at level 13.

Yeah. I wish they had made it into a special Bull Rush instead (they're thrown back as if you kept running with them, but you don't have to move), dealing damage on collision as if it were falling damage (if you would get shot 30 feet, but ram into a wall after 10 feet, you take 20 feet worth of fall damage.

[Elfkin_King]

OK, Because my DM asked me to make a Swashbuckler, for fear of me using anything ranger or monk related (hehe) I was wondering if Dervish Dance works with a Buckler? Because the Buckler is strapped to your arm, the hand is free. When wielding a scimitar with one hand, you can use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on melee attack and damage rolls. You treat the scimitar as a one-handed piercing weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a duelist’s precise strike ability). The scimitar must be for a creature of your size. You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a weapon or shield in your off hand.
And it's not IN the off hand, just on the arm. "This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm".

[malonkey1]

OK, Because my DM asked me to make a Swashbuckler, for fear of me using anything ranger or monk related (hehe) I was wondering if Dervish Dance works with a Buckler? Because the Buckler is strapped to your arm, the hand is free. When wielding a scimitar with one hand, you can use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on melee attack and damage rolls. You treat the scimitar as a one-handed piercing weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a duelist’s precise strike ability). The scimitar must be for a creature of your size. You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a weapon or shield in your off hand.
And it's not IN the off hand, just on the arm. "This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm".

Technically, the feat should work for full-on Sword-and-Board, too, since you're only wielding a scimitar with one hand. I think that wording means no two-handed wielding. TWF & Sword-and-Board are just fine.

[Larkas]

Technically, the feat should work for full-on Sword-and-Board, too, since you're only wielding a scimitar with one hand. I think that wording means no two-handed wielding. TWF & Sword-and-Board are just fine.

I... Don't think so. The feat is pretty explicit: "You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a weapon or shield in your off hand."

It should work with a buckler, though. It doesn't occupy a hand. Case in point: you can use it with a two-handed weapon.

[twilsemail]

Dervish Dance can be gained at levels 1, 2 or 3 depending on your build. Precise Strike comes online at level 3 for yes, just a little less damage provided you play by the silly numbers mechanic associated with grit pools. Agile doesn't come online until around level 7 with standard wealth by level.

As another poster asked, I'm curious how you're getting Dervish dance at level 1. You'd said any human and I can't find any way to have more than your level in ranks of a skill.

[malonkey1]

I... Don't think so. The feat is pretty explicit: "You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a weapon or shield in your off hand."

It should work with a buckler, though. It doesn't occupy a hand. Case in point: you can use it with a two-handed weapon.

Sorry, missed that clause. But yeah, a buckler should be fine.

[NightbringerGGZ]

As another poster asked, I'm curious how you're getting Dervish dance at level 1. You'd said any human and I can't find any way to have more than your level in ranks of a skill.

I forgot about the skill requirement, it's usually hand waved away in my groups. You can still get it at level 1 with a dip in Dawnflower Dervish (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo---bard-archetypes/dawnflower-dervish), which just happens to be one of the archetypes I think fits the Swashbuckler theme better. Sorry about that mistake =P

[Starbuck_II]

The blog said unlike the playtest, you can multiclass a hybrid with its base components.

You can now be a Barbarian/Bloodrager or a Ninja/Slayer.

[Axinian]

The blog said unlike the playtest, you can multiclass a hybrid with its base components.

You can now be a Barbarian/Bloodrager or a Ninja/Slayer.

How the heck would a Barbarian Bloodrager work? I wonder if they've made Bloodrage just stack with rage uses so you can't use both simultaneously? Or would you have separate pools? I'm interested to see how some of the multiclassing interactions are handled.

[Larkas]

The blog said unlike the playtest, you can multiclass a hybrid with its base components.

You can now be a Barbarian/Bloodrager or a Ninja/Slayer.

FINALLY some sense was knocked into their heads :smallbiggrin: Do you have a link for that post?

[Starbuck_II]

FINALLY some sense was knocked into their heads :smallbiggrin: Do you have a link for that post?

Look under Victory For Paizo: http://paizo.com/paizo/blog


They say:
•In the playtest for the Advanced Class Guide, the new classes were called hybrid classes, since each is a mix of two parent classes. In the playtest, you could not take levels in either of the parent classes if you had levels in the hybrid class. In the final version, we removed this restriction.

[Larkas]

Ooooooh, nice! Thanks, Starbuck! A direct link (http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lg4r?Victory-For-Paizo-Victory-For-The-Kids), just in case this thread is found some years from now :smallbiggrin:

[Yanisa]

Ooooooh, nice! Thanks, Starbuck! A direct link (http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lg4r?Victory-For-Paizo-Victory-For-The-Kids), just in case this thread is found some years from now :smallbiggrin:

There is also stuff hidden here (http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lg41), in the comments. I spotted this one.


In addition to the new classes in the book, there are also new archetypes for each of the existing classes in the game. For example, the Rogue has a new archetype called the Counterfeit Mage, which has this fun ability. Signature Wand (Ex): At 4th level, a counterfeit mage can spend 1 hour practicing with a wand to designate it as his signature wand. He can draw that wand as a free action, and can activate it without having to succeed at a Use Magic Device check. He can change his signature wand once per day. This ability replaces the rogue talent gained at 4th level.

And let me repeat the part were I was wrong.

In addition to the new classes in the book, there are also new archetypes for each of the existing classes in the game.

Yay, support for the oldies.

[squiggit]

Counterfeit mage sounds... really awesome. Conceptually at least.

It has spellcasting features too so chances are it might be good.

[Yanisa]

Counterfeit mage sounds... really awesome. Conceptually at least.

It has spellcasting features too so chances are it might be good.

Here, have a picture (http://www.deviantart.com/art/Rogue-counterfeit-mage-454404642). :smallwink:

I think I stumbled on the deviant art of one of the artist (http://operion.deviantart.com/gallery/), it contains a couple of archetypes from the ACG and tells us the parent class.

[squiggit]

Here, have a picture (http://www.deviantart.com/art/Rogue-counterfeit-mage-454404642). :smallwink:

I think I stumbled on the deviant art of one of the artist (http://operion.deviantart.com/gallery/), it contains a couple of archetypes from the ACG and tells us the parent class.

I want the spellstorm and grave warden a lot now too.

[Kudaku]

I realize not everyone follow the Paizo blog, but recently they participated in a charity event - one of the rewards for winning (which they did!) was some spoilers for the upcoming Advanced Class Guide. I gathered and compiled the spoilers here for ease of reading:

The Arcanist received a number of cool new exploits not seen in the play test. Here is one of them. Quick Study (Ex): The arcanist can prepare a spell in place of an existing spell by expending one point from her arcane reservoir. Using this ability is a full-round action that provokes an attack of opportunity. The arcanist must be able to reference her spellbook when using this ability. The spell prepared must be of the same level as the spell being replaced.


The Shaman had a number of hexes added to the class that can be selected by all shamans (not just those with a particular spirit). Check out this fun hex. Shapeshift (Su): The shaman transforms herself into another form for a number of minutes per day equal to her level, as alter self. This duration does not need to be consecutive, but it must be spent in 1-minute increments. Changing form (including changing back) is a standard action that doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity. At 8th level, this ability works as beast shape I. At 12th level, this ability works as beast shape II. At 16th level, this ability works as beast shape III. At 20th level, this ability works as beast shape IV.


In addition to the new classes in the book, there are also new archetypes for each of the existing classes in the game. For example, the Rogue has a new archetype called the Counterfeit Mage, which has this fun ability. Signature Wand (Ex): At 4th level, a counterfeit mage can spend 1 hour practicing with a wand to designate it as his signature wand. He can draw that wand as a free action, and can activate it without having to succeed at a Use Magic Device check. He can change his signature wand once per day. This ability replaces the rogue talent gained at 4th level.


In the playtest for the Advanced Class Guide, the new classes were called hybrid classes, since each is a mix of two parent classes. In the playtest, you could not take levels in either of the parent classes if you had levels in the hybrid class. In the final version, we removed this restriction.


The Shaman's spell list changed several times during the playtest. In the final version, we gave the class its own unique spell list to better suit its theme. This includes a number of spells drawn from the cleric list, the druid list, and the witch list, but it also includes a number of brand new spells found in the book.


The Skald got access to a few more powers from its parent classes, including versatile performance and uncanny dodge. It also got a few new songs that it can use in place of its raging song, such as the song of the fallen. Check it out!


Song of the Fallen (Su): At 14th level, a skald can temporarily revive dead allies to continue fighting, with the same limitations as raise dead. The skald selects a dead ally within 60 feet and expends 1 round of raging song to bring that ally back to life. The revived ally is alive but staggered. Each round, the skald may expend another 1 round of raging song to keep that ally alive for another round. The ally automatically dies if the skald ends this performance or is interrupted. The skald may revive multiple allies with this ability (either at the same time or over successive rounds) but must expend 1 round of raging song per revived ally per round to maintain the effect.


They've also released a new spell called Path of Glory - the spell details can be found here (http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lg4r?Victory-For-Paizo-Victory-For-The-Kids).


Finally, here are the names of every new archetype published in the ACG:

Animist, blade adept, blood arcanist, blood conduit, bloodrider, bolt ace, bounty hunter, brown-fur transmuter, champion of the faith, cleaner, counterfeit mage, crossblooded rager, cult leader, cutthroat, daring champion, daring infiltrator, deliverer, disenchanter, divine commander, divine hunter, divine tracker, ecclesitheurge, eldritch font, eldritch scion, eldritch scrapper, elemental master, empiricist, exemplar, exploiter wizard, fated champion, feral hunter, feral shifter, flame dancer, flying blade, forgepriest, grave warden, greenrager, herald of the horn, hex channeler, holy guide, hooded champion, infiltrator, inspired blade, kata master, martial master, mastermind, metamagic rager, mongrel mage, mountain witch, mouser, musketeer, mutagenic mauler, mutation warrior, mysterious avenger, naturalist, nature fang, occultist, packmaster, picaroon, possessed shaman, primal companion hunter, primalist, psychic searcher, rageshaper, sacred fist, sacred huntsmaster, sanctified slayer, school savant, shield champion, sleuth, snakebite striker, sniper, speaker for the past, spell sage, spell specialist, spell warrior, spelleater, spirit guide, spirit summoner, spirit warden, spirit whisperer, spiritualist, steel hound, steel-breaker, steelblood, strangler, stygian slayer, temple champion, totemic skald, underground chemist, unlettered arcanist, unsworn shaman, untouchable rager, vanguard, verminous hunter, visionary, voice of the wild, warsighted, white mage, wild child, wild hunter, wild whisperer, wildcat, and witch doctor.

Finally, let's try to keep this positive. Feel free to debate, evaluate or disagree with the spoilers, but let's avoid eyerolling, "WTH were they thinking", and insults in general.

[andreww]

Finally, let's try to keep this positive. Feel free to debate, evaluate or disagree with the spoilers, but let's avoid eyerolling, "WTH were they thinking", and insults in general.
It is a bit diffuclt to avoid eyerolling when they give the Arcanist effectively free use of the paragon surge benefit while rogues get a pretty ****ty ability to activate wands which is locked behind an archetype.

[Psyren]

Counterfeit Mage seems like it'll be fun. I could see that ability being worth a talent.

Comparing arcanists to rogues is pretty erroneous to start with. Of course the former is stronger and will get stuff on par with their power level.

[Sayt]

It's not free usage of Paragon Surge. That's seems like a gross exaggeration. Paragon surge gets you just a bout any Sorcerer or Oracle spell, depending on the build. Quick Study is closer to the 1/day spont casting wizards get with an arcane bond. On the other hand, Quick Study requires you to swap out a spell you had prepared for one in your book, and spend a pool point, and this can't be Quickened.

[Snowbluff]

I wonder how broken the summoner will be.

[Yanisa]

It's not free usage of Paragon Surge. That's seems like a gross exaggeration. Paragon surge gets you just a bout any Sorcerer or Oracle spell, depending on the build. Quick Study is closer to the 1/day spont casting wizards get with an arcane bond. On the other hand, Quick Study requires you to swap out a spell you had prepared for one in your book, and spend a pool point, and this can't be Quickened.

Quick Study reminds me a lot of Fast Study (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/archetypes/paizo---wizard-archetypes/arcane-discoveries/fast-study). Which is probably a better comparison then Paragon Surge. (Although Fast Study is a trap for people that don't know how spell preparation works, Quick study at least works without any catch.)

[Elfkin_King]

Finally, here are the names of every new archetype published in the ACG:

Animist, blade adept, blood arcanist, blood conduit, bloodrider, bolt ace, bounty hunter, brown-fur transmuter, champion of the faith, cleaner, counterfeit mage, crossblooded rager, cult leader, cutthroat, daring champion, daring infiltrator, deliverer, disenchanter, divine commander, divine hunter, divine tracker, ecclesitheurge, eldritch font, eldritch scion, eldritch scrapper, elemental master, empiricist, exemplar, exploiter wizard, fated champion, feral hunter, feral shifter, flame dancer, flying blade, forgepriest, grave warden, greenrager, herald of the horn, hex channeler, holy guide, hooded champion, infiltrator, inspired blade, kata master, martial master, mastermind, metamagic rager, mongrel mage, mountain witch, mouser, musketeer, mutagenic mauler, mutation warrior, mysterious avenger, naturalist, nature fang, occultist, packmaster, picaroon, possessed shaman, primal companion hunter, primalist, psychic searcher, rageshaper, sacred fist, sacred huntsmaster, sanctified slayer, school savant, shield champion, sleuth, snakebite striker, sniper, speaker for the past, spell sage, spell specialist, spell warrior, spelleater, spirit guide, spirit summoner, spirit warden, spirit whisperer, spiritualist, steel hound, steel-breaker, steelblood, strangler, stygian slayer, temple champion, totemic skald, underground chemist, unlettered arcanist, unsworn shaman, untouchable rager, vanguard, verminous hunter, visionary, voice of the wild, warsighted, white mage, wild child, wild hunter, wild whisperer, wildcat, and witch doctor..
@.@ Mass speculations on what these could mean....
I'm gonna try and take the time to organize these into groups. Some of these should be pretty obvious, while others are just going to remain ambiguous until more information is released.

Keep in mind these are only possible base/archetypes groupings. If anyone has any insight or other opinions please let me know. :)


arcanist
Blood arcanist, unlettered arcanist, school savant, Blade Adept

bloodrager
crossblooded rager, greenrager, matamagic rager, mongrel mage, rage shaper, untouchable rager, Spellstorm

swashbuckler
Mysterious avenger, Musketeer, sanctified slayer, inspired blade

slayer
Sanctified Slayer, Stygian Slayer, bounty hunter, grave warden

Investigator
mastermind,

brawler
sacred fist, snakebite striker

Hunter
Primal companion hunter, packmaster, sacred huntsmaster,

Shaman
mongrel mage, possessed shaman, unsworn shaman, animist, mountain witch

Skald


warpriest
sacred fist, Herald of the Horn,

rogue
Counterfeit mage,

cleric
ecclesithurge

monk
sacred fist

[Yanisa]

@.@ Mass speculations on what these could mean....
I'm gonna try and take the time to organize these into groups. Some of these should be pretty obvious, while others are just going to remain ambiguous until more information is released.

Let me get you started :smallwink:


Arcanist Archetypes
Blade Adept

Bloodrager Archetypes
Spellstorm

Cleric Archetypes
Ecclesithurge

Hunter Archetypes
Primal hunter

Rogue Archetypes
Counterfeit Mage

Shaman Archetypes
Animist

Slayer Archetypes
Grave warden

Witch Archetypes
Hex Healer

Source, in case you missed it. (http://operion.deviantart.com/gallery/)

[andreww]

It's not free usage of Paragon Surge. That's seems like a gross exaggeration. Paragon surge gets you just a bout any Sorcerer or Oracle spell, depending on the build. Quick Study is closer to the 1/day spont casting wizards get with an arcane bond. On the other hand, Quick Study requires you to swap out a spell you had prepared for one in your book, and spend a pool point, and this can't be Quickened.
I might agree with you but it doesnt seem to be limited to once per day. It just gives you exceptional flexibility on any particular day. Sure you probably wont use it in combat but most paragon surge use isnt used for that either.

Given the cost for obtaining new spells is fairly minimal it also isnt difficult to have an extremely large number of spells available in your book at any one time.

[Psyren]

Witch Archetypes
Hex Healer

Hmmm... could this be an alternative to the Hedge Witch that actually works? I wonder.

[Ssalarn]

Hmmm... could this be an alternative to the Hedge Witch that actually works? I wonder.

I could have sworn I saw someone mention that Hex Healer was a Shaman archetype, not Witch. I could be wrong though.

**EDIT**
And that art that's linked in definitely makes a compelling case :P

[Elfkin_King]

I could have sworn I saw someone mention that Hex Healer was a Shaman archetype, not Witch. I could be wrong though.

**EDIT**
And that art that's linked in definitely makes a compelling case :P

Yeah, some of them are brutally obvious, the rest are so ambiguous that it's maddening.

[NightbringerGGZ]

Yeah, some of them are brutally obvious, the rest are so ambiguous that it's maddening.

My thought was that it would be a healing oriented Shaman. Considering that you can actually make a pretty effective healer from the base options this is kinda exciting to look forward to.

[Larkas]

I could have sworn I saw someone mention that Hex Healer was a Shaman archetype, not Witch. I could be wrong though.

**EDIT**
And that art that's linked in definitely makes a compelling case :P

Psyren said that it's going to be an alternative to Hedge Witch, not that it's going to be based on the same class as Hedge Witch.

[Psyren]

I could have sworn I saw someone mention that Hex Healer was a Shaman archetype, not Witch. I could be wrong though.

**EDIT**
And that art that's linked in definitely makes a compelling case :P

Good point, it's probably for Shamans.


Psyren said that it's going to be an alternative to Hedge Witch, not that it's going to be based on the same class as Hedge Witch.

Actually I was indeed (probably incorrectly) going off the assumption that it was a Witch archetype based on Yanisa's classification. But thinking about it again, Shamans get Hexes too, and it seems that every divine or pseudo-divine casting class gets a healing-centric archetype.

[Larkas]

Actually I was indeed (probably incorrectly) going off the assumption that it was a Witch archetype based on Yanisa's classification. But thinking about it again, Shamans get Hexes too, and it seems that every divine or pseudo-divine casting class gets a healing-centric archetype.

And that's what I get for not putting a "probably" between "Psyren" and "said". :smallbiggrin:

To be honest, I'm more interested in archetypes for the existing classes than those from the ACG. But obviousy, the old classes already have plenty of archetypes, it makes sense to focus on the new ones.

[Yanisa]

Good point, it's probably for Shamans.



Actually I was indeed (probably incorrectly) going off the assumption that it was a Witch archetype based on Yanisa's classification. But thinking about it again, Shamans get Hexes too, and it seems that every divine or pseudo-divine casting class gets a healing-centric archetype.

And I was basing it off an artist deviant art, dunno how trust worthy that is. Because the Rogue one is right (and posted before the Blog Spoiler), I guess the others are probably too.

[Psyren]

And that's what I get for not putting a "probably" between "Psyren" and "said". :smallbiggrin:

To be honest, I'm more interested in archetypes for the existing classes than those from the ACG. But obviousy, the old classes already have plenty of archetypes, it makes sense to focus on the new ones.

Oh very much agreed - particularly for classes like the Fighter, Rogue and Monk that could use a boost.

[Sayt]

I might agree with you but it doesn't seem to be limited to once per day. It just gives you exceptional flexibility on any particular day. Sure you probably wont use it in combat but most paragon surge use isn't used for that either.

Given the cost for obtaining new spells is fairly minimal it also isn't difficult to have an extremely large number of spells available in your book at any one time.

The thing is that you can use paragon surge in combat, quickening it in no struggle come mid-level, and you can gets wands of it for basically whenever you want. Quick Study on the other hand, runs off a finite, limited-replenishable resource.

And aquiring new spells has an opportunity cost. Scribing spells takes time, going shopping takes time and costs gold, and some campaigns put time constraints on the party which means you can't just spend a week splurging on spells.

Is it powerful and useful? Sure. Is it on the level of Paragon Surge? I don't think so. (For one thing, it restricts you much, much more.)

[squiggit]

It's still incredibly powerful. The biggest weakness of the arcanist was that it had spells/day like a wizard but spells prepared like a sorcerer's spells known and quick study significantly lessens the latter problem.

Regarding paragon surge. The big disadavantage here is that you can't quicken them and you don't get the dex/int bonus.. .the latter is peanuts, but still.

The big advantage here though is that you there's no duration on quick study, so you can do it at any point in the day without having to worry about losing the effect. Paragon surge, because of its duration, often requires you to use it after you've already entered danger.


Quick Study on the other hand, runs off a finite, limited-replenishable resource.
This I don't see as a compelling argument though. Yes, it runs off a limited resource, but so does paragon surge. Each casting eats a third level spell slot, which isn't exactly a bad spell level when you include metamagiced second and first level spells too. Nevermind if you're quickening paragon surge.

[Ssalarn]

Word on the street from peeps over here Seattle-ways is that one of the Hunter archetypes trades out spellcasting for enhanced teamwork abilities and the other trades out the animal companion for some kind of shapeshifting, and both are intentionally designed to work together so that you can stack them to essentially create a lycanthrope pack leader.

[TheIronGolem]

Here's hoping the Swashbuckler doesn't still have to pay a feat tax to use non-piercing weapons.

[Beowulf DW]

A friend of mine almost flipped the table when he saw that Arcanist is *getting things.*

Any way, I can't wait for all the new goodies. This Blade Adept looks interesting, if only because I don't know how that's going to work. And I'd love to know what the Spell Warrior is. Magus archetype, perhaps?

[deuxhero]

Hybrid classes just being real classes with no multiclass restrictions is nice. Only one this really effects is Bloodrager, where jumping through hoops to be able to pick up a rage power (then extras via Extra Rage power) was an option, now they just need a 2 level dip.

[squiggit]

Ecclesithurge
This is really fun to say out loud. I'm hoping it's a really badass archetype because that's just a cool word.

[malonkey1]

This is really fun to say out loud. I'm hoping it's a really badass archetype because that's just a cool word.

Considering Ecclesithurge probably comes from "ecclesiastic" ("of the church"), it may have something to do with a firebrand preacher, or perhaps something that makes it more like an Inquisitor by trading away support ability.

[Ilorin Lorati]

Considering the look, (http://operion.deviantart.com/art/Cleric-ecclesithurge-454404565) I'm expecting it to be more cloistered cleric, less inquisitor. We're likely to see all of the core class archetypes to be made in a similar vein to the ACG classes themselves, adding in concepts from other classes, so... maybe Wizard concepts, for something like Archivist? *shrug*

[deuxhero]

Ecclesithurge evokes "theurge" to me especially as he is holding a spellbook. Paizo already made a fully spontaneous archivist who still knows all his spells (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Razmiran%20Priest)

I like the art, but seeing his other work the women are a bit hit and miss (some weird bending going on. He mostly draws women looking to the "camera" in new works, maybe he realizes its a weakness?). Any idea what race is the blade adept supposed to be?

[Ilorin Lorati]

The Blade Adept race is probably just a deformed human.

[Elfkin_King]

Good point, it's probably for Shamans.



Actually I was indeed (probably incorrectly) going off the assumption that it was a Witch archetype based on Yanisa's classification. But thinking about it again, Shamans get Hexes too, and it seems that every divine or pseudo-divine casting class gets a healing-centric archetype.

The artwork said that it was indeed a witch archetype, and the artist claims that Paizo commissioned them to make it (unless I misunderstood that), and the information was out on the DA page before it was released by Paizo for the reward. Which is what makes me believe that those archetypes truly goes with those classes.

Edit:
Bonus Feats: At 4th level and at every four levels thereafter, a swashbuckler gains a bonus feat in addition to those gained from normal advancement (meaning that the swashbuckler gains a feat at every level). These bonus feats must be selected from those listed as combat feats. Upon reaching 4th level and every four levels thereafter, a swashbuckler can choose to learn a new bonus feat in place of a bonus feat she has already learned. In effect, the swashbuckler loses the bonus feat in exchange for the new one. The old feat cannot be one that was used as a prerequisite for another feat, prestige class, or other ability. A swashbuckler can only change one feat at any given level and must choose whether or not to swap the feat at the time she gains a new bonus feat for the level. Swashbuckler levels are considered fighter levels for the purpose of meeting combat feat prerequisites.
Does that mean (for the feats being exchanged) that Feat A and/or Feat B have to be combat feats? Or can the previous feat be a general feat? And does that mean that I can exchange my 1st level feat at 4th level if need be?
Further, if the answer is no to the last question, would it be applicable to the Bonus Feat that Humans get for being, well, Human?

(and am I the only one that noticed that the math "meaning that the swashbuckler gains a feat at every level" is incorrect? Looking at the table, and adding in odd level feats, (s)he only gets 15 feats by level 20, vs the 20 that it says.
Edit 2: This was answered in a PM. :)