Drindrin, Eater of Souls! (Is this build legal/legit a.k.a did I cheat making this?!)

[Wolfsraine]

Drindrin, Eater of Souls... maybe..

Dragonwrought Kobolod, 5 monk/1 swashbuckler/1 rogue

Starting Stats

Before racial mods
Str 14, dex 18, con 12, int 11, wis 16, cha 8

After mods and level 4 stat bump (Aged to venerable)

Str 10, dex 20, con 10, int 14, wis 20, cha 11

Feats

1. Dragonwrought
1. Flaw Murky Eyed, Feat: Dragon Tail
1. Flaw 2 Inattentive, Feat: Multiattack
1. Monk bonus feat, combat reflexes
2. Monk bonus feat, deflect arrows
3. Martial Study, Shadowhand; Clinging Shadow Strike
5. Craven
7. Martial Stance; Island of Blades
7.Swashbuckler bonus feat, Weapon Finesse

I'm still unsure about the attack sequence and the correct to hit numbers. The character had enough money for a monks belt and an agile amulet of mighty strikes +1. I've also read mixed posts on whether or not I can Flurry and make my natural attacks in the same round.

Basically what I'm asking is if the more veteran players can take a look at my feats and make sure that I can actually do everything I'm doing. I'm thinking of possibly going into Soul Eater at some point, the character is for a campaign where we are basically a suicide squad from a mercenary guild. Pretty much if one of the PC's die, we just have another one at the ready lol.

So anyway, I think my attack sequence at this level would be: +11 unarmed, +9 claw, +9 claw, +9 bite, +9 tail. Please correct me if I'm wrong! Thanks!

[Kazudo]

Your maneuver only works once per encounter at IL 3.

Other than that, without knowing the answer to your question (concerning natural weapons and flurry of blows) and without any further information on the build, it looks like it works alright.

EDIT: Some evidence:



When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons.
[...]
A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.
[...]
The monk can’t use any weapon other than a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows.
[...]
When doing so, she may make one extra attack in a round at her highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a -2 penalty, as does each other attack made that round.


What that SEEMS to say is that you can make your natural attack barrage, then do a number of vanilla Unarmed Strikes or attacks with Monk Weapons only in addition as long as every attack that turn takes a penalty to attack. I could be wrong.

[Telonius]

The feat progression is legal for Pathfinder, but not for 3.5. (1 3 6 instead of 1 3 5 7). I'm not certain if they changed any of the wording on Flurry of Blows in PF, so bear that in mind for the rest.

There are various rulings on whether or not a Monk can use natural attacks on top of a flurry. Personally I don't think it's rules-legal - but come on, it's a Monk.

Anyway, it looks like you have your sequence down all right. It would be +11/+6 (since you have the iterative) on the unarmed attack, followed by the natural attacks.

[Kazudo]

The feat progression is legal for Pathfinder, but not for 3.5. (1 3 6 instead of 1 3 5 7). I'm not certain if they changed any of the wording on Flurry of Blows in PF, so bear that in mind for the rest.

There are various rulings on whether or not a Monk can use natural attacks on top of a flurry. Personally I don't think it's rules-legal - but come on, it's a Monk.

Anyway, it looks like you have your sequence down all right. It would be +11/+6 (since you have the iterative) on the unarmed attack, followed by the natural attacks.

+11/+6/+1, actually, assuming I know what you're referencing.

EDIT: Which I don't. I was assuming BAB, and that's not the case for that HD. Nevermind.

[Wolfsraine]

Thanks for the responses guys!

Question, if I were able to make all my natural attacks after I flurry, would they get an additional -2 along with the already -2 for secondary attacks (since i have multiattack), and do you guys think it is unbalanced to be able to be making that many attacks a round?

[Kazudo]

Yes, all of your attacks that round would be at a -2 penalty to their BAB. Only your flurried attack(s) would be at your highest BAB (-2, of course).

The thing about a lot of attacks is that they don't really matter if you can't hit frequently. Crit fishers who have a dozen attacks per turn with amazing critical threat ranges do that specifically because if they hit, they'll hit harder than normal. If you're making five attacks per round at an average of -4 per attack for various reasons and miss three of them, you're doing no better than the fighter who has just the two iterative attacks and hit with both of them; the difference being that he can Power Attack for a lot of bonus damage due to two-handed fighting, plus he has reach.

[Wolfsraine]

Also my BAB is only +4, the +11 I have there is my 4 bab + 5 dex + 1 size + 1 amulet of mighty strikes +1 = +11 on my first attack

If I were to flurry I think it would be= Monk level as bab = 5, +1 bab from swashbuckler for a total of 6, then -2 for flurry = 4, +5 dex, +1 size, +1 amulet= +11, +11 flurry strikes, followed by natural attacks with my normal bab 4, -2 for secondary weapons, +5 dex, +1 size, +1 amulet= +9 claw, claw, tail, bite

OR

if the additional -2 is incurred from using flurry, then each natural attack would be +7 instead. Does any of this sound correct? lol

[Kazudo]

Also my BAB is only +4, the +11 I have there is my 4 bab + 5 dex + 1 size + 1 amulet of mighty strikes +1 = +11 on my first attack


Ah. So you only get one attack per turn with your standard unarmed attack.



If I were to flurry I think it would be= Monk level as bab = 5


That confuses me. No, it'd be a BAB = 4, +1 from Swashbuckler giving you a +5 there.



, +1 bab from swashbuckler for a total of 6, then -2 for flurry = 4, +5 dex, +1 size, +1 amulet= +11, +11 flurry strikes, followed by natural attacks with my normal bab 4, -2 for secondary weapons, +5 dex, +1 size, +1 amulet= +9 claw, claw, tail, bite

Ok, this sounds good EXCEPT that the Natural attacks would also receive a -2 penalty for flurrying.



OR

if the additional -2 is incurred from using flurry, then each natural attack would be +7 instead. Does any of this sound correct? lol

This is correct, assuming you can flurry and use all of your natural attacks at the same time, which is up in the air.

[Wolfsraine]

That confuses me. No, it'd be a BAB = 4, +1 from Swashbuckler giving you a +5 there.

Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action.

When doing so, he may make one additional attack, taking a –2 penalty on all of his attack rolls, as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat. These attacks can be any combination of unarmed strikes and attacks with a monk special weapon (he does not need to use two weapons to utilize this ability).

For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus from his monk class levels is equal to his monk level. For all other purposes, such as qualifying for a feat or a prestige class, the monk uses his normal base attack bonus.

We're using pathfinder and 3.5 things meshed together for the most part. I'm assuming the 3.5 version monk does not get the same flurry as the pathfinder version.

[Kazudo]

That would have been good to point out in your OP, for future reference. To answer your question, no. The ability of the same name in D&D 3.5 doesn't use that clause. So you're right in your maths save for the last bit in which this happens:



A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks.


Where D&D 3.5e doesn't have that clause. So you can't, unless you're homebrewing flurry of blows to take the best of both options in which case I don't really see how you could have been breaking the rules in creating your build.

[Captnq]

Yeah, PF kinda screwed monks.

If you are a 3.5 monk with say, about a dozen natural attacks, You use full-round attack, then you get flurry of blows, THEN your Natural attacks at are -5.

Then on top of that:


When unarmored, a monk may strike with a flurry of blows at the expense of accuracy. When doing so, she may make one extra attack in a round at her highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a -2 penalty, as does each other attack made that round.

So all your natural attacks are at a total -7, but EVERY natural attack is at -7, regardless of how many you have.

Note, your natural attacks don't use your monk's unarmed strike.

Now then, have you considered grafting things onto your body? A pair of warforged arms only costs you 1,000 gp (well within your budget) and gives you an extra slam attack. Then you can buy any warforged only body attachments that would fit on your arms.

Also, don't forget your necklace of natural weaponry, bracers of striking, ward cestus, and body implants. Although personally, nothing beats an AC 1 bracers of armor with +5 enhancement bonus and WSA Ghost Ward. It lets the EB apply to your touch attack TWICE. +6 to all ac and +11 to touch attack only? A STEAL at 37,000 gp.

I just uploaded the 0.04 beta release of the EVD. I suggest the grafts section and the combat equipment sections

Subhandbook Gauntlets, Specific Magic weapons, Augement crystals... and you know what really levels a playing field at low levels? Poison. Get a NoNW with assassination so you can apply poison directly to your hands without poisoning yourself. 2,600 gp. Cheap as heck, but you can slather yourself with poison and the applications remain stored in your body until discharge. (just don't walk into an AMF or take the necklace off) Remember, a monk has 9 different body locations to attack from for his unarmed strike. Each and every one can have poison applied to it. So make sure to check out the poison handbook as well.

[Captnq]

Oh, BTW, noticed you actually were going for 5th level monk so you have slow fall 20'. Don't forget that means YOU take no damage from falling, but whatever you hit takes 1d6 for every 10 feet. With a tumble roll at DC 15, you can fall 10 feet without issue, and falling is a free action. So whenever possible, try and get above your targets and fall on them for a free 3d6 attack. if they see you coming, they can take a Reflex save at DC 15 to avoid you, but if your first attack is to trip your target as you fall on him... (technically, you could fall 25 feet, take a full round attack, then fall the last 5 feet. Since falling is a free action, nothing says you can't fall in 5 foot increments.) That's, of course, twisting the RAW into a pretzel and BEGGING to be beaten with a rulebook. Make sure you check with your DM before you start play about how he deals with falling before you try anything. Surprising him in the middle of combat is bad form.

[Kazudo]

Oh, BTW, noticed you actually were going for 5th level monk so you have slow fall 20'. Don't forget that means YOU take no damage from falling, but whatever you hit takes 1d6 for every 10 feet. With a tumble roll at DC 15, you can fall 10 feet without issue, and falling is a free action. So whenever possible, try and get above your targets and fall on them for a free 3d6 attack. if they see you coming, they can take a Reflex save at DC 15 to avoid you, but if your first attack is to trip your target as you fall on him... (technically, you could fall 25 feet, take a full round attack, then fall the last 5 feet. Since falling is a free action, nothing says you can't fall in 5 foot increments.) That's, of course, twisting the RAW into a pretzel and BEGGING to be beaten with a rulebook. Make sure you check with your DM before you start play about how he deals with falling before you try anything. Surprising him in the middle of combat is bad form.

It was how I learned that the new-release DMG is the fattest and heaviest of all of the books and that their spines are made of adamantium.

[Wolfsraine]

That would have been good to point out in your OP, for future reference. To answer your question, no. The ability of the same name in D&D 3.5 doesn't use that clause. So you're right in your maths save for the last bit in which this happens:



Where D&D 3.5e doesn't have that clause. So you can't, unless you're homebrewing flurry of blows to take the best of both options in which case I don't really see how you could have been breaking the rules in creating your build.

That would explain why some threads said yes to flurry and natural attacks while others were the opposite. Must have just chosen to ignore that part when reading the descriptions! :smallannoyed:

Going forward then with the 3.5 wording it seems I would be able to flurry and natural attack, albeit at a bab of 4 at my current level.


So all your natural attacks are at a total -7, but EVERY natural attack is at -7, regardless of how many you have.

Wouldn't they be at -4 with the Multi-attack feat while flurrying?

[Captnq]

Wouldn't they be at -4 with the Multi-attack feat while flurrying?

Ah. Yes. However, I'm explaining the base line. From there you can calculate your own situation. For example, A +2 ward Cestus with opposable (+1 WSA) could be mounted on your forehead giving your headbutt a +2 to hit and damage, but I wouldn't include such an example when explaining how a monk's headbutt is the same as his fist, even if the player was intending on doing such a thing.

Honestly, I don't do builds very much. I never get to play, I only DM.