Help with a Stealthy Barbarian?

[Nettlekid]

Just an odd character concept I'd love to be able to flesh out in a build. I'm trying to make a character who has the capacity for stealth and thievery, but is quick-tempered and rises to a challenge quickly. This is a kind of difficult combination of abilities to get effectively, so I'd like some build help for it.

For starters, I'd like it to be a Half-Giant which has had Return To Nature cast on it several times, making it Fine-sized. That ends up with racial stat modifiers of -6 Str, +6 Dex, +2 Con, though I may tack on Primordial for a total of -10 Str, +6 Dex, +4 Int, +4 Cha. Incidentally, can anyone think of a way to remove the penalty of Return to Nature's instantaneous Reduce Person effect without removing the spell entirely? I suspect that Iron Heart Surge or Lesser Restoration would just terminate the effect. It would be great to get rid of that Str penalty while keeping the boost to Dex. If I can do that then I'd suffer the -4 Str from Primordial, but if not then -6 Str is bad enough (since I'll need at least 13).

Because he'll have a low Strength I'll need some way to pump up damage that isn't Strength based, and the two things I can think of to fit the character are either Power Attack, ubercharger style, or filling up on ToB maneuvers. I think I'm leaning more toward the ubercharger build, but going Warblade is kind of tempting too.

But I also want to take advantage of the high bonus to Hide from being Fine, and just to make this guy sneaky and thiefy. I think all I really need to do in that regard is max Hide, Move Silently, and Sleight of Hand along with taking Darkstalker and Master Pickpocket. Except that if I go ubercharger I don't want to drop BAB, and I'm not sure of any classes that both have those as class skills and also keep in the style of character I'm looking for (Ranger doesn't really work so well for this.)

So, with all those things in mind, can anyone offer some build suggestions? Starting with some Barbarian for Pounce at the very least, where can I go to gain higher damage and potential stealth abilities?

[Kazudo]

For starters, I'd like it to be a Half-Giant which has had Return To Nature cast on it several times, making it Fine-sized. That ends up with racial stat modifiers of -6 Str, +6 Dex, +2 Con, though I may tack on Primordial for a total of -10 Str, +6 Dex, +4 Int, +4 Cha. Incidentally, can anyone think of a way to remove the penalty of Return to Nature's instantaneous Reduce Person effect without removing the spell entirely? I suspect that Iron Heart Surge or Lesser Restoration would just terminate the effect. It would be great to get rid of that Str penalty while keeping the boost to Dex. If I can do that then I'd suffer the -4 Str from Primordial, but if not then -6 Str is bad enough (since I'll need at least 13).

It's ok. Reduce Person is temporary and cannot stack with itself, so you'd get one use out of it and it would last for 1 minute for level. Since Return to Nature doesn't edit this fact, merely creating a Fort save (which is present in Reduce Person anyway), it stays the same IIRC.

[Nettlekid]

It's ok. Reduce Person is temporary and cannot stack with itself, so you'd get one use out of it and it would last for 1 minute for level. Since Return to Nature doesn't edit this fact, merely creating a Fort save (which is present in Reduce Person anyway), it stays the same IIRC.

Is that the case? Return to Nature does state that it is of instantaneous duration, with no (see text) or anything to change it. Other nonpermanent effects of the spell have durations stated in the spell, but the Reduce Person effect doesn't. I think the specifics of this spell override Reduce Person's normal qualities, especially considering that Reduce Person couldn't normally target a creature of the Giant type, and this spell says nothing to counter that either, which means that it seems to be using Reduce Person's effect without the details of that spell's application. Or such is the interpretation that I feel confident in using, and will be going with.

Anyway, suggestions on classes to take?

[Kazudo]

Is that the case? Return to Nature does state that it is of instantaneous duration, with no (see text) or anything to change it. Other nonpermanent effects of the spell have durations stated in the spell, but the Reduce Person effect doesn't. I think the specifics of this spell override Reduce Person's normal qualities, especially considering that Reduce Person couldn't normally target a creature of the Giant type, and this spell says nothing to counter that either, which means that it seems to be using Reduce Person's effect without the details of that spell's application. Or such is the interpretation that I feel confident in using, and will be going with.


Oh. Ok. Well, it still doesn't stack either way. It says that in Reduce Person's description rather than the info spread above. If it's instantaneous, fantastic, but it still only works once. This distinction is important for me to be able to see what kinds of classes are going to help the most for what you want.

[Nettlekid]

Oh. Ok. Well, it still doesn't stack either way. It says that in Reduce Person's description rather than the info spread above. If it's instantaneous, fantastic, but it still only works once. This distinction is important for me to be able to see what kinds of classes are going to help the most for what you want.

Why wouldn't it stack? The fire damage of a fireball stacks with itself given repeated castings.
Nonetheless, disregard it. I will be operating as though the result of turning to Fine size imposes a -8 to Str and a +8 to Dex in addition to racial stats. Just work with that and assume it to be true. And starting from there, I'd like help thinking of classes which can offer high offense and niche skill capability.

Maybe PrCing into Dread Commando at some point? But the class features are kind of lackluster. And it doesn't have Sleight of Hand.

[Kazudo]

Why wouldn't it stack? The fire damage of a fireball stacks with itself given repeated castings.

Because of this sentence right here:


Multiple magical effects that reduce size do not stack.

But anyway, since we're ignoring the crunch on how this character became Fine, let's move on I suppose.



Nonetheless, disregard it. I will be operating as though the result of turning to Fine size imposes a -8 to Str and a +8 to Dex in addition to racial stats. Just work with that and assume it to be true. And starting from there, I'd like help thinking of classes which can offer high offense and niche skill capability.

Maybe PrCing into Dread Commando at some point? But the class features are kind of lackluster. And it doesn't have Sleight of Hand.

Fortune's Friend maybe?

[Nettlekid]

Fortune's Friend maybe?
Fortune's Friend? That gives skills, yeah, but does absolutely nothing for me in any other respect for the character's intent. Poor BAB and no class features which aid the damage dealing OR stealth. I mean, Factotum 3 is a quicker way to get skills and lose only one BAB, or Rogue 3, or anything like that. Why Fortune's Friend?

[OldTrees1]

Since you want to be stealthy you need 2 things:
1) A class skill skill rank cap for Hide and Move Silently (achievable by ever having them as class skills)
2) Enough skill points to keep Hide and Move Silently near or at the skill rank cap

The Guerilla Warrior feat allows you to buy ranks at 1 point :1 rank but does not change the skill rank cap.
1 level dip in Rogue or Ranger will give you a class skill skill rank cap.

Dread Commando seems like a waste of time.

[Nettlekid]

Since you want to be stealthy you need 2 things:
1) A class skill skill rank cap for Hide and Move Silently (achievable by ever having them as class skills)
2) Enough skill points to keep Hide and Move Silently near or at the skill rank cap

The Guerilla Warrior feat allows you to buy ranks at 1 point :1 rank but does not change the skill rank cap.
1 level dip in Rogue or Ranger will give you a class skill skill rank cap.

Dread Commando seems like a waste of time.

Yeah, I think that might be the way to go. One level of Ranger also gets Track, which gives me a reason to boost Survival, which might be fun with three levels of Barbarian and Trapkiller. Can anyone think of a way to get Sleight of Hand on there too, though? That would be pretty great, because I love the idea of using Master Pickpocket to swipe everything from everyone.

How do you think I should go about bumping up damage on this? There's always Power Attack-Shock Trooper-Leap Attack with a Valorous Weapon, which is inelegant but powerful, no doubt. I suppose I could combine that with either Crusader or Warblade, having full BAB, to get maneuvers on there too. I was thinking that Dancing Blade Form would be handy in order not to provoke with every attack.

[holywhippet]

The dark hunter PrC gives you the main stealth skills of move silently and hide. It also gives you darkvision which is very useful for sneak around at night.

In some way what your are trying to build is Conan, minus the size reduced giant bit. He was a barbarian and a master thief.

[Flickerdart]

Don't forget about spirit totems - Fox Totem gives you a tidy +4 to Hide and Move Silently, and IIRC another +1 for every point of DR 1/- you would normally get from barbarian levels.

[Nettlekid]

The dark hunter PrC gives you the main stealth skills of move silently and hide. It also gives you darkvision which is very useful for sneak around at night.

In some way what your are trying to build is Conan, minus the size reduced giant bit. He was a barbarian and a master thief.

I didn't know Conan was a thief. I guess so then. What I'm REALLY trying to build is the Nac Mac Feegle from Terry Pratchett's Discworld, minus some of the stranger spirit-faerie things and focusing on being really little, really strong, and really Scottish.


Don't forget about spirit totems - Fox Totem gives you a tidy +4 to Hide and Move Silently, and IIRC another +1 for every point of DR 1/- you would normally get from barbarian levels.

Those would be good except that there's no way I'd give up Pounce from the Lion Totem for that. I also don't plan to go too far into Barbarian.

[OldTrees1]

Yeah, I think that might be the way to go. One level of Ranger also gets Track, which gives me a reason to boost Survival, which might be fun with three levels of Barbarian and Trapkiller. Can anyone think of a way to get Sleight of Hand on there too, though? That would be pretty great, because I love the idea of using Master Pickpocket to swipe everything from everyone.

How do you think I should go about bumping up damage on this? There's always Power Attack-Shock Trooper-Leap Attack with a Valorous Weapon, which is inelegant but powerful, no doubt. I suppose I could combine that with either Crusader or Warblade, having full BAB, to get maneuvers on there too. I was thinking that Dancing Blade Form would be handy in order not to provoke with every attack.

1 level of Rogue would give you a class skill skill cap for Sleight of Hand but only Elven(Aereni Focus) and Human(Able Learner) Barbarians can buy it at 1 point : 1 rank.

So Rogue 1 / Barbarian X with 10 Int would spend all 4 skill points per level to keep Hide(1:1), MoveSilently(1:1) and Sleight of Hand(2:1) at max ranks.

In general I would advise against an Ubercharger. It is an overly specialized glass cannon that has a lower life expectancy in practice. Just your standard Strength based Lion Totem barbarian should do fine at representing those funny Nac Mac Feegle.

[Nettlekid]

1 level of Rogue would give you a class skill skill cap for Sleight of Hand but only Elven(Aereni Focus) and Human(Able Learner) Barbarians can buy it at 1 point : 1 rank.

So Rogue 1 / Barbarian X with 10 Int would spend all 4 skill points per level to keep Hide(1:1), MoveSilently(1:1) and Sleight of Hand(2:1) at max ranks.

In general I would advise against an Ubercharger. It is an overly specialized glass cannon that has a lower life expectancy in practice. Just your standard Strength based Lion Totem barbarian should do fine at representing those funny Nac Mac Feegle.

I guess I could buy the skills cross class, though I'd prefer not to. But then again, I'm not going to spend my skills on much else (except maybe Tumble and Survival). But why not Ubercharger? The only main drawback is the lowered AC, which tends to be not that important at high levels and hopefully will be partially compensated for by being Fine. I kind of want to be Fine and wear medium/heavy armor to work with a high Dex to have a surprisingly high AC, so on non-attacking turns I'll be hard to hit, but it'll probably be ineffective. That's part of the reason I was considering Crusader, because with a high delayed damage pool and healing strikes I'll be resilient.

[OldTrees1]

I guess I could buy the skills cross class, though I'd prefer not to. But then again, I'm not going to spend my skills on much else (except maybe Tumble and Survival). But why not Ubercharger? The only main drawback is the lowered AC, which tends to be not that important at high levels and hopefully will be partially compensated for by being Fine. I kind of want to be Fine and wear medium/heavy armor to work with a high Dex to have a surprisingly high AC, so on non-attacking turns I'll be hard to hit, but it'll probably be ineffective. That's part of the reason I was considering Crusader, because with a high delayed damage pool and healing strikes I'll be resilient.

At higher levels AC does not affect accuracy but it does affect how much the enemies can Power Attack you for. At the optimization level of an Ubercharger, your decreased AC will at least double the damage you take the next round. If your DM has the enemies optimized half as much as you, then you go from surviving 4 hits to surviving only 2 hits.

[holywhippet]

I didn't know Conan was a thief. I guess so then. What I'm REALLY trying to build is the Nac Mac Feegle from Terry Pratchett's Discworld, minus some of the stranger spirit-faerie things and focusing on being really little, really strong, and really Scottish.


Conan was far more than a mere thug, one of the early stories is about him stealing a valuable gem called the "Heart of the Elephant":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conan_the_Barbarian

Maybe you should be looking at a monk type build rather than a barbarian:
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Ultimate_Monk_%28DnD_Optimized_Character_Build%29/Pixie_Ninja

The Feegle can do a shocking amount of damage with just their hands. Drunken master might be another route to look at as well since Feegle do like to get hammered before entering battle.

[Nettlekid]

Conan was far more than a mere thug, one of the early stories is about him stealing a valuable gem called the "Heart of the Elephant":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conan_the_Barbarian

Maybe you should be looking at a monk type build rather than a barbarian:
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Ultimate_Monk_%28DnD_Optimized_Character_Build%29/Pixie_Ninja

The Feegle can do a shocking amount of damage with just their hands. Drunken master might be another route to look at as well since Feegle do like to get hammered before entering battle.

That Monk build, and I think most Monk builds of this type, rely on either effectively (which I'd be okay with) or actually (which defeats the purpose) becoming larger than you currently are. It's true that Nac Mac Feegle are more unarmed than anything, but they do use like tiny swords and things too. And I had thought about Drunken Master, but it's just too weak and ineffective at anything to be worthwhile for it.