Bladebound Kensai

[torrasque666]

Any helpful advice in the playground?



18-Point Buy, no stat over 18 (After racials/traits) and no stat under 8 (after racials/traits) at level 1.
Max HD gain every level.
Pick 2 traits from different trait groups / drawbacks are optional (2 max, you may only obtain 1 trait through drawbacks)
New characters start at level 8
Wealth for level 8 is 27000 gp. You may not spend more than 12k gold on any one item. You may not buy more than 8 wondrous items, not including consumables and scrolls.
3rd party content are not allowed.
All PFclasses are allowed, except for Summoners.
All core races are allowed (recommended)



Before racials mods I was planning on:



STR
16


DEX
12


CON
13


INT
13


WIS
10


CHA
10



Definitely taking Magus with the Kensai and Bladebound archetypes.

Race: Either Human or, provided that I can provide a suitable backstory, tiefling for a bit of a survivability boost or Suli for access to the Elemental Knight.
Weapon for Black Blade, Kensai Focus, Kensai Proficiency, etc: Falcata(1d8, 19-20/x3)

Suggested feats and skills? Arcana? Items?

[Wolfsraine]

I'm currently in a game as a level 4 Bladebound Fiendflayer Kensei and I think it's pretty awesome!

I like Tiefling for the natural weapons, on the off chance you get caught without weapons, at least until level 9 when you can just teleport your blade to you. Current feats I have are Improved Initiative and Power Attack. I would recommend maybe getting some Extra AP feats somewhere down the line. As a kensei you get you use AP to increase crit multi and maximize damage.

As for arcanas, most of the ones I have in mind are 3rd party that I ok'd with my DM. Things like Eldrith Athame and Wave of Mutilation are ones im going for for flavor reasons.

Hope anything I said was a little helpful lol.

[grarrrg]

18-Point Buy, no stat over 18 (After racials/traits) and no stat under 8 (after racials/traits) at level 1.


STR
16


DEX
12


CON
13


INT
13


WIS
10


CHA
10



Race: Either Human or, provided that I can provide a suitable backstory, tiefling for a bit of a survivability boost or Suli for access to the Elemental Knight.

I'd advise against Suli. While you don't need a high INT for a Magus, taking a Race with -2 INT and only 18 Point-buy does not sound like a recipe for success. Especially since Kensai get to add their INT to a variety of things as they level.
Suli = BAD
Human or Tiefling are good solid choices though

[watchwood]

You could take a scimitar, play an Elf, and make a Dervish Dance build work if you wanted to.

[Kurald Galain]

I would suggest dropping your cha (and wis) a few points to get more int, and possibly dex.

Since you have an intelligent sword that uses your skill ranks, put at least one rank into all int-based skills you can find, and you get to roll twice on them.

A good combo for the magus is Intensify Spell feat + Shocking Grasp + metamagic master trait, or another one is Rime Spell + Frostbite + metamagic master + Enforcer. Aside from that, you'll probably want Extra Arcana (focus on the ones that don't use arcane pool, because you have very little of that), Arcane Strike, and maybe combat feats like Step Up. Improved Init is always nice, of course.

Note that Elemental Knight can't be combined with Kensai.

[NightbringerGGZ]

I played a Str-based human Bladebound Kensai with a Katana, and he was quite effective. So you can avoid the Dervish Dance builds if you want. My only advice would be that with the recent nerf to Crane Wing, there aren't a ton of extra feats to choose from at first level if you go human. (I wound up taking the Nemesis Story Feat). That let me gain 1/4 of an Arcane Point every level along with an extra point of HP. By level 16 it's the equivalent of Toughness and 2 Extra Arcane Pool feats. I really wanted those AP points for boosted crit modifiers via Perfect Strike.

In your case I would suggest a Peri-Blooded Aasimar, with attributes of:
Str: 16 (18)
Dex: 14
Con: 12
Int: 16
Wis: 10
Cha: 9

Put both attribute points into Strength as you level. Pick up Magical Lineage (Shocking Grasp) as one of your Traits. I'm a fan of picking up Reckless to turn Acrobatics into a class skill with this build, but that's largely based on how my table plays (lots of environmental challenges). If you pick up a flaw then that's an easier choice to make. I'd suggest the following feats & Arcana:

1 - Arcane Strike
3 - Power Attack
5 - Intensified Spell, Toppling Spell
6 - Spell Blending (Mage Armor, Touch of Gracelessness)
7 - Weapon Specialization

Gear:
Belt of Dexterity +2 - 4k
Headband of Vast Intelligence - 4k
Pearl of Power 1 x6 - 6k
Ring of Protection +1 - 2k
Cloak of Resistance +2 - 4k

Prepare 2 Intensified Shocking Grasps each day, use Pearls of Power after combat to recharge them. This gives you 2 big hits per combat. You'll have 22 AC with Mage Armor on. Toppling Magic Missile is a level 2 spell, but it's really useful for getting that clutch trip attempt in. Use your spells carefully as you'll have very few to use each day, that's why I like Arcane Strike and Power Attack in this build.

[torrasque666]

Might it also be a little bit better to take a Rapier and instead swap STR and DEX, due to the fact that the Kensai make it lose out on its armor proficiency? I was mostly considering the Falcata due to its x3 mult and crit range.

[Orsyn]

As a kensai, you lose your armor proficiencies, instead relying on dex and int for AC. Scimitar with the dervish dance feat gets you dex to attack and damage. Your reduced arcane pool is going to make the +1/4 arcane point favored bonus important. I like human for this, since Racial Heritage (Gnome) also qualifies them for adding a bunch of additional weapon abilities to their pool choices, though these are often situational so ymmv. Regarding weapon choice, remember that spells are always a x2 multiplier, but use your weapon's threat range

[Raimun]

Bladebound Kensai needs a lot of Int. Perhaps even more than regular Magus.

Your spells per day and Arcane Pool are both reduced compared to normal Magus. High Int mitigates these. Your Kensai abilities also let you apply Int to many useful things like AC, Inititiave and critical hit confirmation. Capitalize on that. Take also Arcane Accuracy-Arcana so you get your Int to hit when it really counts.

I don't think I need to tell you to take a Headband of Intelligence.

The amazing thing about Bladebound Kensai is that it's a weapon wielding melee class that doesn't need to buy magic weapons or armor. Go nuts on Wondrous Items.

[torrasque666]

So the Rapier would definitely be the better choice then, with its slightly bigger range. So I can drop WIS and CHA, and put those points into INT.

[NightbringerGGZ]

So the Rapier would definitely be the better choice then, with its slightly bigger range. So I can drop WIS and CHA, and put those points into INT.

The problem with a Rapier is that you can't enhance a Black Blade, meaning you can never add Agile to the weapon. This means your weapon damage will wind up being really low. You also can't use Piranha Strike with a Rapier and can't use it with a two-handed style and Power Attack. If you're going to focus on a Dex build, you're kinda stuck with using a Scimitar and Dervish Dance. However, since you don't need to spend funds on your weapon or armor you really are free to buy magical items that shore up your defenses. A Dex belt and an Int Circlet each net you +1 AC along with other benefits. You can buy a Ring of Protection fairly cheaply. A Wand of Mage armor or an Arcana that adds the spell to your spell list are good options too.

Low AC is really only an issue during the early levels of this build, which you get to bypass completely. With the stat array I suggested, you'd wind up with at least 20 AC. More if you can get some buffs from your party or focus on AC boosting a bit more.

[khachaturian]

but... with level 1 pearls of power costing 1000gp, the bulk of your damage will be coming out of intensified shocking grasps that will crit on a 15-20 with your keened weapon

[NightbringerGGZ]

but... with level 1 pearls of power costing 1000gp, the bulk of your damage will be coming out of intensified shocking grasps that will crit on a 15-20 with your keened weapon

At this point advice depends completely on how your GM runs things. My BBK would run through 5-7 combats between rest periods. Even with Pearls of Power, I had to pick and choose when I was striking (I used a Katana specifically so I would have the extended crit range and still have the option of 2-Handing). Unless you plan on running around with dozens of Level 1 Pearls of Power (a plan most GMs would veto), you're still not going to be using a Shocking Grasp on even half your attacks. This is when the extra flat damage comes in handy. The combo of Arcane Mark (Spell Strike), Arcane Strike and Power Attack is pretty nice, especially when you toss Haste into the mix.

Now if you know that you'll have relatively few combat encounters, then sure just pick up Pearls of Power and nova as much as you want to.

[khachaturian]

do you think that two-handed power attack is better than the pseudo twf you get with spell combat?

[torrasque666]

The problem with a Rapier is that you can't enhance a Black Blade, meaning you can never add Agile to the weapon. This means your weapon damage will wind up being really low. You also can't use Piranha Strike with a Rapier and can't use it with a two-handed style and Power Attack. If you're going to focus on a Dex build, you're kinda stuck with using a Scimitar and Dervish Dance. However, since you don't need to spend funds on your weapon or armor you really are free to buy magical items that shore up your defenses. A Dex belt and an Int Circlet each net you +1 AC along with other benefits. You can buy a Ring of Protection fairly cheaply. A Wand of Mage armor or an Arcana that adds the spell to your spell list are good options too.Using a scimitar would totally bone a Magus, as it would make them dependent on three stats as a scimitar doesn't qualify for Weapon Finesse, and with only an 18 point buy the less stats I need to focus on the better.


Low AC is really only an issue during the early levels of this build, which you get to bypass completely. With the stat array I suggested, you'd wind up with at least 20 AC. More if you can get some buffs from your party or focus on AC boosting a bit more.

I said I'm not using Aasimar, which your build required. Why? Because I'm not. Plain and simple. And because I need a proper backstory to use any of the advanced races(IE not core ones) for this game, and I can't think of one for an Aasimar. Honestly, when someone says what races they are using or between, why would you suggest something completely different?

[geekintheground]

Using a scimitar would totally bone a Magus, as it would make them dependent on three stats as a scimitar doesn't qualify for Weapon Finesse, and with only an 18 point buy the less stats I need to focus on the better.


maguses ALWAYS need 3 stats. either youre dex based (dex, int, con) or str based (str, int con). the dex build uses Dervish Dance, a feat that grants dex to hit AND damage for a scimitar (but only while you 1-hand it, which you would be doing anyway since you cant 2 hand a rapier).

[torrasque666]

So you're honestly telling me that there's only ONE right way to play a dex-based magus? Because that's what it seems like. Which would honestly get boring. I'm looking for a... variety... of ideas. I don't care if they are THE BEST, just semi-decent. And I know that out of everyone here, no one is going to say that there is only ever ONE good way to play a class. There are best ways, and there are good ways.

[Gemini476]

So you're honestly telling me that there's only ONE right way to play a dex-based magus? Because that's what it seems like. Which would honestly get boring. I'm looking for a... variety... of ideas. I don't care if they are THE BEST, just semi-decent. And I know that out of everyone here, no one is going to say that there is only ever ONE good way to play a class. There are best ways, and there are good ways.

If you want to be dex-focused, you ideally want dexterity to both to-hit and damage - otherwise you need strength as well.
So yeah, for a dex-focused magus there pretty much just is one way of doing things. Well, two if you go Weapon Finesse+Agile, but bladebound won't let you have Agile.

The other option is to just take Weapon Finesse and rely on bonus damage from Shocking Grasp or whatever to make up for not having dex to damage, but then you need a whole lot of spells slots. You do not have a lot of spell slots as a Kensai. Pearls of Power take a standard action to use, but are pretty cheap. So that's an option.

Do note that you really want to crit-fish if you are going the Shocking Grasp route, though.

[Terazul]

I don't care if they are THE BEST, just semi-decent. And I know that out of everyone here, no one is going to say that there is only ever ONE good way to play a class.

Unless you're in Pathfinder. Magus really doesn't have that many options.

[torrasque666]

Again, I don't care if their GOOD. Just options. Ideas. Things to build off of.

As a note, considering that even with a Blackblade I can still use the arcane pool to get it to keen. Any other advice for crit-fishing with it?

[watchwood]

Play as an Elf, and take the Song of Arcane Triumph arcana?

[torrasque666]

.... You're not even reading the OP anymore are you?

[grarrrg]

You have fairly low point-buy (and limited ability to DUMP a stat). This limits your options.

A STR based Magus generally depends on having a good solid set of armor. Kensai loses all Armor-casting options (Note: there are still some Light Armor that have 0% Arcane Failure, but they only have a base AC of 1. Armored Kilt, Haramaki, Silken Ceremonial).
A DEX based Magus generally depends on something to boost their damage. Typically this requires Dervish Dance + Scimitar, OR the Agile enchantment. Bladebound rules out Agile.
Kensai are also fairly INT-based, as their main schtick is to turn it into bonuses (the most important being AC, as they lose Armor-casting).

DEX based will help make up for your lack of (good) Armor, but Agile is out, and you don't want a Scimitar. Rapier is not compatible with Piranha Strike, and you need 13 STR for Power Attack (and can't necessarily afford the stats).

My advice?
Given your situation and what you _want_ to do, I see 2 real options.
STR-based, drop Kensai. You can't afford 3 good stats, and you need actual AC as you'll be in melee range. Drop Kensai, and you regain the use of _actual_ armor.

DEX-based, accept the loss of damage, or just suck it up and use a Scimitar.


Unless you're in Pathfinder. Magus really doesn't have that many options.

What you just said makes zero sense.

[torrasque666]

Thank you for your advice. I'll be a bit bummed that I'll need to give up the rapier. And the aversion to Dervish dance was less the scimitar and more the requirement to take any ranks in a perform skill. You're advice is extremely helpful. And since you actually took the time to explain everything in regards to WHY Dervish Dance is apparently the only reliable build instead of just saying "Nope, its the only decent build", I'll keep it in mind.

[avr]

If you can get an ally to take and use Butterfly's Sting crit fishing is easy.

If you want a talking blade but bladebound magus is not essential it is sort of possible. Eldritch heritage and Improved Familiar ... wait, this isn't going to work, you can't afford 13 CHA.

Sorry, the low point buy makes fancy stuff difficult.