Red Mage, for lack of a better name.

[Fizban]

Disclaimer: This is not supposed to be a Final Fantasy red mage. The thread title says what I mean: the term red mage is used for lack of a better term. Theurge is already taken, and many people know what the red mage stands for on sight, thus the use of the term. I don't need people running off links to "red mage" classes previously made, and I don't need people telling me what a red mage does or does not do.

I repeat, this is not an FF red mage thread.


I've been thinking about an idea for a base class that has a massive spell list. I was thinking: take the bard, remove bardic music, and add access to Sor/Wiz and Cleric spells. Now, while I think this would still be lacking as a base class, and could use more of something, I don't have many ideas. The bard has more spells known than a sorcerer, and adding more to that wouldn't really do much. So what do you guys think? What other class features would you give to a class that gets spells up to 6th level from Sor/Wiz/Cleric/Bard lists?

*I figured this was more appropriate in discussion than homebrew, since it's a brainstorm rather than a critique.

[Quietus]

I think that giving the "red mage" access to those spells alone is enough. The removal of his bardic music isn't even enough of a balance, IMO - sure, you can't give your buddies a quick +1 to attack rolls and the like, but you can have all the low level straight damage AND healing spells. Who needs music?

[Single Shot Zombie]

Red Mages in FF have Doublecast, don't they? You could give them a kind of doublecast ability that scales with their level (level 1 spells at 4th level, level 2 at 8th etc.) as a full-round action, with a limited ability to allow standard action doublecasting x times per day that scales with level. May result in some weird stuff happening if you get to mix it with stuff such as Arcane Fusion, but then that's your lookout - you decide if casting 4-6 low level spells at one shot is overpowered.

Also needs more spells per day/spells known, as well as lvl 1 spells known right off the bat. The bard progression isn't particularly strong.

And this might go into Homebrew.

[Fizban]

Some other things to consider: it has (very) finite spells known and spells per day, and doesn't get any higher spells than a basic theurge would get. More spells known and spells per day would be a good idea, but too much more and it starts getting too good. Maybe an extra +1 or 2 at each level of both slots and spells known?

I haven't played an FF with a red mage using a doublecast ability, but it sounds good. I could see it as free quickened spells like the duskblade's, but only usable after casting another spell in that round. Actually I prefer the full-round action version how about:

Doublecast: At fourth level, the Red Mage gains the ability to cast two spells at once. The mage may use a full round action to cast two spells, one of which must be at least one level lower than the other. This ability may be used 1/day at fourth level, +1 per four levels past that.

Add that to the base bard minus bardic music plus Sor/Wiz/Cleric spell lists to choose from. Rename bardic knowledge as lore, and to cap it off, let's add Imbue Item as the warlock at 12th. How's that sound?

[toddex]

I've been thinking about an idea for a base class that has a massive spell list. I was thinking: take the bard, remove bardic music, and add access to Sor/Wiz and Cleric spells. Now, while I think this would still be lacking as a base class, and could use more of something, but I don't know what. The bard has more spells known than a sorcerer, and adding more to that wouldn't really do much. So what do you guys think? What other class features would you give to a class that gets spells up to 6th level from Sor/Wiz/Cleric/Bard lists?

*I figured this was more appropriate in discussion than homebrew, since it's a brainstorm rather than a critique.

Duskblade is the closest I can think of to getting a red mage. Without creating one yourself that is. If i were to make a rdm class id take the duskblade and just add the bards heals on his spell list.

[Cybren]

an 8-bit theater style redmage is pretty much exactly the Chameleon (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041210b&page=1)

[Ramza00]

How about Bard with no bardic music, up to 6th lvl spells in Cleric/Wizard. 6 skill points per level, and.

An ability similar to UM augmented casting. Since its a base class I would make it.

Up to 1st lvl spells at lvl 4
Up to 2nd lvl spells at lvl 8
Up to 3rd lvl spells at lvl 12
Up to 4rd lvl spells at lvl 16
Up to 5rd lvl spells at lvl 20

Being able to quicken spells at lvl 10 by sacrificing other slots is similar to the final fantasy double cast ability.

[Fizban]

Could you please explain the abbrevation "UM augmented casting?"

[Grim Greyscale]

Hmmmmm... I think I've seen this somewhere before... (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10756)

<_<

[Viscount Einstrauss]

You can get access to every spell in the game by playing a generic spellcaster, but you'll have to put up with a limited spells-known cap and absolutely abysmal stats for everything non-magic related. Still, if you take out the several bonus feats in favor of a rogue's BAB and a bard's weapon/armor proficiency, you'd conceptually have a classic red mage.

Doublecast doesn't need to be figured in. Besides the fact that it was a much later addition to the FF mythos anyway (only appearing in FFTA and FFXI, if I'm not mistaken), it's easily pulled off with the quickened spell metamagic.

[Cybren]

You can get access to every spell in the game by playing a generic spellcaster, but you'll have to put up with a limited spells-known cap and absolutely abysmal stats for everything non-magic related. Still, if you take out the several bonus feats in favor of a rogue's BAB and a bard's weapon/armor proficiency, you'd conceptually have a classic red mage.

Doublecast doesn't need to be figured in. Besides the fact that it was a much later addition to the FF mythos anyway (only appearing in FFTA and FFXI, if I'm not mistaken), it's easily pulled off with the quickened spell metamagic. FF5. X-magic and all.

[Fizban]

Hmm, I think I'm gonna put a disclaimer up there before this turns into an FF class debate.

@Einstrauss: generic caster would work, except those aren't meant to be used in a game with non-generic classes. The doublecast is just an idea for a class ability besides sub-par spells, if you've got your own ideas I'd like to hear them, you can never have too many.

[Dhavaer]

Could you please explain the abbrevation "UM augmented casting?"

UM = Ultimate Magi, from Complete Mage.

[Behold_the_Void]

So essentially a base class that mirrors Mystic Theurge in some aspects up to 5th or 6th level spells? Possibly with a moderate BAB and some weapon/armor proficiencies?

[Fizban]

@Dhaver: facepalm. I'll have to go look that up now.

@BtV: If you want to look at it that way. It's really much weaker than an MT because it was half the spell slots and less than half the spells knowsn considering most divine classes get the whole spell list known. Since it doesn't have access to the highest level spells, it hardly matter that it can learn almost any of them, and needs some signature abilities to make up for that. Unless those abilities really rule, I'd think it hard to justify forcing the lowest hit die and BAB on it.

[Behold_the_Void]

So let me just get a picture of what you're trying to do here.

Spontaneous casting + spells known to some degree of a Sorcerer. Possibly a few more spells known and can draw from Wizard/Sorcerer and Cleric spell lists, but casting does not go up to 9th level, likely somewhere in the area of 5th or 6th level.

Moderate BAB, possibly either some reduced arcane spell failure or some abilities like that of a Duskblade where you can wear a certain kind of armor without spell failure.

Skills probably around 4+Int per level with some social skills and the like.

Casting probably based around Charisma.

Simple and either limited or full martial weapon proficiency.

A few other tricks to make it both a unique class unto itself and to make it worthwhile. I see borrowing again from the Duskblade for such abilities.

Is that about what you're looking at?

[Fizban]

I was starting with:

Spontaneous casting with more spells know/level but less spells/day/level than the sorcerer, drawing spells from the Sor/Wiz/Cleric lists, topping out at 6th level spells.

Medium BAB, d6 hit die, cast in light armor, proficiency with a couple martial weapons, like longsword and rapier.

6+int skills per level, using generally the bard list, which includes social skills, UMD, disable device/open lock, all knowledges and speak language. Might as well keep the bardic knowledge/lore type ability, since it keeps with the versatility theme.

Some abilities to make the class unique and worth taking, since a max of 6th level spells leaves it lacking in the full caster department, and it does nothing else well enough to focus on. These abilites should probably be based off of spell use.

I'm curious as to why you think this is similar to the duskblade. It's closer to bard, and I in fact stated in the OP that I wanted to start by trading bardic music for an expanded class spell list. The only ability the duskblade has that meshes is it's free quickened spells. The problem with this is that where the duskblade has nearly twice the normal spell slots given, and a theurge has two spell slot pools to draw from, this class has only a base of 4 or 5 per level, so spewing spells faster is counterproductive. Hashing out a new spell progression that reaches 7th or 8th level would give it enough oomph to compete, but that gets into the levels with really abusable spells, and might not be a good idea.

Any other ideas?

[silvermesh]

I've actually done this very type of thing, only I sort of built it as a "knowledge-seeker" type of class. I called it the Literati. My goal was to create a class like the bard that could do a little of everything, without having the overly specialized "feel" of the musician/performer.

I gave the same spells per day list as the bard, as well as max spells known, but I had them learn spells like a wizard adds to his book, by studying scrolls(but they're scribing them to their memory). They could learn any spell from anyones list, but they had to find a scroll of it first. INT based casters.

I left the "light armor casting" but never more than that(red mages never did wear HEAVY armor).

as far as weapon proficiencies, i couldn't really decide here.
First i just wanted to give them sword proficiencies, to make them like red mages, but I didn't want them all to be the same. I wanted to have a wide variety of weapons available, but I also didn't want every Literati carrying around a wide arsenal, just one weapon or two. I decided to give them what amounted to weapon groups, so you could pick swords, or you could pick axes, bows, crossbows&guns, spears&lances, etc. As they progressed I let them apply certain feats to their weapon groups(like focus, improved critical, etc), or to buy new weapon groups.

the whole idea was that they learned by studying an art, rather than necessarily through training, they read about certain weapons extensively, they read about combat.

I also toyed with the idea of a "monster knowledge" type of class skill that would let the Literati sort of develop limited Favored Enemy bonuses based on Knowledge checks pertaining to his enemy, but I never really got anywhere with that. I can't even find my old notebook with all that stuff in it.

[Ramza00]

Sorry I abbreviated before. When I said UM augmented casting I meant the Ultimate Magus Augmented Casting (UM is from Complete Mage avaliable free as an excerpt, excerpt link here)
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061010a&page=3



Augmented Casting (Su): Starting at 3rd level, you can choose to sacrifice a spell or spell slot from one of your classes to apply the effect of a metamagic feat that you know to a spell cast using another arcane class. (For instance, you could sacrifice a sorcerer slot to apply a metamagic effect to a wizard spell.) This sacrificed spell or slot is lost (just as if you had cast the spell) in addition to the spell you are actually casting.

The level of the spell to be augmented can't exceed 1/2 your class level. For example, when you first gain this ability, you can only apply a metamagic effect to 1st-level spells. A 10th-level ultimate magus can affect spells of 5th level or lower.

The level of the spell slot sacrificed must equal or exceed the spell level adjustment of the metamagic feat. To empower a spell, for example, you would have to spend a 2nd-level or higher spell. You can't use this ability to augment a spell already affected by a metamagic feat.

You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + 1/2 your class level.

Make a similar ability for your class, it can be used mostly as is, but due to the fact it is a base class not a 10 lvl prc, and the fact you have one spellcasting class, I would change the ability so its more like this.

Up to 1st lvl spells at lvl 4
Up to 2nd lvl spells at lvl 8
Up to 3rd lvl spells at lvl 12
Up to 4rd lvl spells at lvl 16
Up to 5rd lvl spells at lvl 20

[Behold_the_Void]

When I was saying Duskblade I was thinking probably because the Red Mage would likely have more arcane channeling-type abilities, but that's how I was thinking about it. I agree it's a lot more like the bard, but if it's picking from Sorcerer/Wizard spell-lists there'd be all of the touch attack spells and the like.