what does "TO" mean?

[AdamantlyD20]

Is it totally optimised? Or totally overpowered? Or what?

[Tysis]

Theoretical Optimization, as opposed to practical optimization.

[Seerow]

Theoretical Optimization.


ie Optimization that is used only on forums/other discussions, not intended for use in a real game.

[Rubik]

Theoretical Optimization.


ie Optimization that is used only on forums/other discussions, not intended for use in a real game.Unless you play with Emperor Tippy.

[Seerow]

Unless you play with Emperor Tippy.

Yes, well. Speak to your audience. I doubt anyone playing with Tippy doesn't know what TO means.

[Jeff the Green]

Unless you play with Emperor Tippy.

The border between TO and PO is fuzzy and somewhat subjective. Some (like me) consider things like the Rainbow Warsnake inappropriate for any game we'd be interested in playing and even have a hard time imagining a campaign where it would be appropriate, making it TO. Others are fine with it. I think even Tippy would put most infinite loops/nigh-infinite values in TO, though, because things like Pun-Pun and the Omniscificer are basically "I win" buttons, and those tend to not be fun.

[AdamantlyD20]

Thanks guys! I always wondered what it meant

[Dorian Gray]

The difference between TO and PO being primarily that PO (like casting split scorching ray) is fun in a normal game, while TO (like casting twin repeating greater arcane fusion to cast twin split repeating fell drain scorching ray and twin repeating arcane fusion to cast twin split repeating fell drain scorching ray and twin split repeating ray of frost) is...
Well, I won't say it isn't satisfying to fling a couple thousand scorching rays at something, but it becomes boring after the first time.

[Jeff the Green]

The difference between TO and PO being primarily that PO (like casting split scorching ray) is fun in a normal game, while TO (like casting twin repeating greater arcane fusion to cast twin split repeating fell drain scorching ray and twin repeating arcane fusion to cast twin split repeating fell drain scorching ray and twin split repeating ray of frost) is...
Well, I won't say it isn't satisfying to fling a couple thousand scorching rays at something, but it becomes boring after the first time.

I think that in general it's okay to have one or two of the lower-power TO tricks available to you for those cases when you're up to your ass in alligators*. Like have all the ingredients for a d2 crusader but wield a greatsword except when things get really bad. (Though in that case, if you play by the books it's a really bad idea to try the d2 crusader, because, barring some unlucky early rolls you'll never actually get to resolve the attack.)

Another distinction between TO and PO is that TO tends to center around optimizing a mechanic, while PO tends to optimize around a goal. This isn't always the case, of course; I've got a build I hope to play soon that focuses on getting a ton of use out of Racial Emulation to take things like Elf and Gnome and Changeling substitution levels for quirky synergies, along with Halfling-, Gnome, and Human-only prestige classes and feats. But in general, a TO build will have one main trick and will be presented at the lowest possible level to achieve that trick, even if, we're you to play it, getting other e.g. feats first might make more sense. PO builds, since they're often actually meant for a real game, are more likely to delay their trick in order to shore up their secondary or tertiary abilities, go out of their way to get the skill points to put in Spot, Listen, etc., or start with a really bad idea, like Warforged Monk/Sorcerer, and see how far they can go with it.

*This is one of those rare occasions where you can take an idiom literally and still have it make sense.

[Rubik]

(Though in that case, if you play by the books it's a really bad idea to try the d2 crusader, because, barring some unlucky early rolls you'll never actually get to resolve the attack.)Actually, you can safely say that you deal infinite damage and not need to roll any dice at all, because at no time will you successfully hit something and NOT deal infinidamage with a d2 crusader wielding a d2 weapon.

It's like having 1d1 for damage. You will never ever ever roll anything but a 1, so you'll always receive that result, no matter what.

[Jeff the Green]

Actually, you can safely say that you deal infinite damage and not need to roll any dice at all, because at no time will you successfully hit something and NOT deal infinidamage with a d2 crusader wielding a d2 weapon.

It's like having 1d1 for damage. You will never ever ever roll anything but a 1, so you'll always receive that result, no matter what.

I thought the d2 crusader was only probabilistically infinite (i.e a finite result is possible but the mean is infinite). Is that something else?

[Rubik]

I thought the d2 crusader was only probabilistically infinite (i.e a finite result is possible but the mean is infinite). Is that something else?No, the d2 crusader is actually infinite. Any time you get a 1, you discard and reroll. Any time you get a 2, you add it to the total and reroll again. Since there are only two results, you end up with the following:


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2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+
2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+
2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+
2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+
2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+
2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+
2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+
2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+
2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+
2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+
2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+
2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+
2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+
2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+
2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+
2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+
2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2...
ad infinitum.

[Abithrios]

No, the d2 crusader is actually infinite. Any time you get a 1, you discard and reroll. Any time you get a 2, you add it to the total and reroll again. Since there are only two results, you end up with the following:


2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+
...
2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+
2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+
2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+
2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2...
ad infinitum.

One way to soft ban this effect is to go on the record saying that the player would be required to physically roll all the dice used to resolve the attack. I am not sure about the effect used to reroll 1s, but the stance for rerolling 2s does not say that the rerolling is optional.

[Rubik]

One way to soft ban this effect is to go on the record saying that the player would be required to physically roll all the dice used to resolve the attack. I am not sure about the effect used to reroll 1s, but the stance for rerolling 2s does not say that the rerolling is optional.So just roll until the monster is dead or the DM gets fed up with it.

[eggynack]

I thought the d2 crusader was only probabilistically infinite (i.e a finite result is possible but the mean is infinite). Is that something else?
I suspect you're thinking of lightning maces cheese, where you achieve a crit over half the time, and gain two extra hits when you get a critical hit (or something like that). That trickery leads to a distribution akin to what you've described, where you'll often go off and hit a gajillion times, and you'll sometimes just hit a few times before the combo dies of natural causes.

[Vogonjeltz]

Is it totally optimised? Or totally overpowered? Or what?

Shenanigans that probably aren't following the RAW.

[Nirhael]

Shenanigans that probably aren't following the RAW.

Most, if not all, TO tricks are 100% legal by RAW, likely not by RAI though.

[Rubik]

Shenanigans that probably aren't following the RAW.If you can point out where TO tricks aren't following RAW, I'd like to see your proof, because any TO trick worth its salt is pretty ironclad (and, thus, bypassing RAW means it's not actually TO).

[Vogonjeltz]

If you can point out where TO tricks aren't following RAW, I'd like to see your proof, because any TO trick worth its salt is pretty ironclad (and, thus, bypassing RAW means it's not actually TO).

Example: you mentioned earlier the d2 crusader concept. Anything that deals 1 damage doesn't have a die to roll. And treating a 1 as a 2 doesn't mean a 2 was rolled, which is the actual requirement to activate aura of chaos.

That however took far too much time to explain. It's much simpler to just say what I did in the first place. TO generally is shenanigans that don't follow the rules as written.

[SiuiS]

The TO / PO border is in direct relation to game scale. Things that were TO at level 3 are now sub-par at level 60 because oops I accidentally your timeline. The rainbow war snake, for example, is the warmage with a prestige class for access to all clerical spells? That's also what happens when you hit DvR 0 and pick up divine spell casting, which isn't even practical optimization, it's par for the course.


I thought the d2 crusader was only probabilistically infinite (i.e a finite result is possible but the mean is infinite). Is that something else?

Lightning mace aptitude fellhammer(?) shenanigans are probabilistically infinite, in that a hit is always a threat, and each threat generates additional attacks, and so does each critical success, requiring exponentially more failure to stop once it gets going but still possible to stop.

I have talked dispater into making a few of those out of modified hellfire engines. It's the only way anyone really stands a chance against the reawakened mishka. :smalltongue:

E: vogonjeltz, that's not how a d2 crusader works. They actually do roll a d2, hence the name. There is never a 'do not roll', and there is a direct 'as if you rolled [maximum]'.

[ryu]

Example: you mentioned earlier the d2 crusader concept. Anything that deals 1 damage doesn't have a die to roll. And treating a 1 as a 2 doesn't mean a 2 was rolled, which is the actual requirement to activate aura of chaos.

That however took far too much time to explain. It's much simpler to just say what I did in the first place. TO generally is shenanigans that don't follow the rules as written.

Actually as the thing mentioned involves explicit discarding and rolling again you're wrong on a basic level. A 2 is always rolled using that trick. Any other tries?

[Zombimode]

So just roll until the monster is dead or the DM gets fed up with it.

Since you can never finish the damage roll, the target won't take damage. Instead, the game grinds to a screeching halt since you've created an infinite loop with no direct impact on the gamestate and no way to end the loop. In Magic The Gathering the game would end in a draw. In D&D the DM will probably say: "your attack deals 2+modifiers damage. For the remainder of the game session, you can't use Aura of Chaos. Next time, I will either come with a homebrew fix or, if I can't think of any reasonable fix, you can repick your choice for the stance."

[Necroticplague]

Since you can never finish the damage roll, the target won't take damage. Instead, the game grinds to a screeching halt since you've created an infinite loop with no direct impact on the gamestate and no way to end the loop. In Magic The Gathering the game would end in a draw. In D&D the DM will probably say: "your attack deals 2+modifiers damage. For the remainder of the game session, you can't use Aura of Chaos. Next time, I will either come with a homebrew fix or, if I can't think of any reasonable fix, you can repick your choice for the stance."

Except that aura of chaos says "You can continue to reroll as long as a die shows its maximum". Note the "can", not "must". It does not force you to do so, it just says you can. So you can stop the loop by simply deciding to stop rolling.

[SiuiS]

social systems do not and should not have to compile.

"This would fail if I as DM were a poorly designed computer" is not a rules argument, or even a valid argument. It's passive aggressive at best. It's asinine. It's harmful to the game. If you're a DM who cannot handle a mid level build dealing enough damage to kill a target in one swing, then dungeons and dragons 3.5 is not for you. Heaven help you if someone begins play as a wizard!

[Brookshw]

If you're a DM who cannot handle a mid level build dealing enough damage to kill a target in one swing, then dungeons and dragons 3.5 is not for you. Heaven help you if someone begins play as a wizard!

Well that's not completely dismissive of a massive number of perfectly valid play styles in the slightest :smalltongue:

[Spore]

social systems do not and should not have to compile.

"This would fail if I as DM were a poorly designed computer" is not a rules argument, or even a valid argument.

This feels like Sheldon Cooper playing D&D: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWWOM53Zh20

[TrueJordan]

Dunno if this was said, but the d2 crusader doesn't have to be infinite. Aura of chaos says:

yadda yadda yadda... You can continue to reroll as long as a die shows its maximum possible result, adding each new number to the damage total until each die has shown less than a maximum result.

Emphasis mine. You don't HAVE TO reroll every die, but you can if you wanna.

[Vaz]

Example: you mentioned earlier the d2 crusader concept. Anything that deals 1 damage doesn't have a die to roll. And treating a 1 as a 2 doesn't mean a 2 was rolled, which is the actual requirement to activate aura of chaos.

That however took far too much time to explain. It's much simpler to just say what I did in the first place. TO generally is shenanigans that don't follow the rules as written.

That is why it is the d2 crusader. Not 1damage crusader. It uses a a d2 damage weapon to roll either 1 or max. Whuch triggers the infinite chain.

[Spore]

That is why it is the d2 crusader. Not 1damage crusader. It uses a a d2 damage weapon to roll either 1 or max. Whuch triggers the infinite chain.

If you had a math major as your DM he could argue that a d2 attack that negates its lower roll has only one outcome. Not two, where one is 100%. Therefore the chain would stop since there's no chance involved. And honestly that's the sane definition.

[Zombimode]

Except that aura of chaos says "You can continue to reroll as long as a die shows its maximum". Note the "can", not "must". It does not force you to do so, it just says you can. So you can stop the loop by simply deciding to stop rolling.

Hm, I somehow missed that. Sorry about that. Yes, in this case the trick works.



social systems do not and should not have to compile.

"This would fail if I as DM were a poorly designed computer" is not a rules argument, or even a valid argument. It's passive aggressive at best. It's asinine. It's harmful to the game. If you're a DM who cannot handle a mid level build dealing enough damage to kill a target in one swing, then dungeons and dragons 3.5 is not for you. Heaven help you if someone begins play as a wizard!

You've missed my point, which was: If you insist on abusing the system, at least have the decency of doing it right and not ignoring it when it is convenient to you (see commoner railgun).

It was just a bad example due to me misremembering the rules text for Aura of Chaos.

[Vaz]

If you had a math major as your DM he could argue that a d2 attack that negates its lower roll has only one outcome. Not two, where one is 100%. Therefore the chain would stop since there's no chance involved. And honestly that's the sane definition.

It doesn't negate the lower roll in the parlance. It only carrs if you roll 1 or max to trigger the reroll or the addition. The lack of an need to roll doesn't detract that the parlance rule would simy allow it to trigger.

And a DM doesn't need to say 'i'm a math major blah' instead judt say 'i'm a dm stop breaking the game'

[nedz]

Dunno if this was said, but the d2 crusader doesn't have to be infinite. Aura of chaos says:


Emphasis mine. You don't HAVE TO reroll every die, but you can if you wanna.

Yes, but you don't know how much damage you've done until you stop rolling and until you actually state your damage you don't know if you've taken the guy down. Now you may have done 9001 HP of damage, but the target could have 9002 HP.

[ryu]

Yes, but you don't know how much damage you've done until you stop rolling and until you actually state your damage you don't know if you've taken the guy down. Now you may have done 9001 HP of damage, but the target could have 9002 HP.

Unless the DM is changing shiz on the fly arbitrarily high damage is still going to be arbitrarily higher than any HP of any enemy in the game. That is a true fact.

[Red Fel]

Yes, but you don't know how much damage you've done until you stop rolling and until you actually state your damage you don't know if you've taken the guy down. Now you may have done 9001 HP of damage, but the target could have 9002 HP.

And unless he kills you in this round, you can try again next round. Just pick an arbitrary number. "I stop after 500 rolls" means you deal 1000 damage unless he has DR. (Which you really need to work on overcoming if you have a 1d2 weapon.) If that doesn't kill him, next round you pick 1000 rolls - meaning 2000 damage. And so on until the fool thing gets the message and snuffs it.

[sideswipe]

And unless he kills you in this round, you can try again next round. Just pick an arbitrary number. "I stop after 500 rolls" means you deal 1000 damage unless he has DR. (Which you really need to work on overcoming if you have a 1d2 weapon.) If that doesn't kill him, next round you pick 1000 rolls - meaning 2000 damage. And so on until the fool thing gets the message and snuffs it.

is the extra damage caused normal damage or explicitly precision damage? because it is surely saying "the weapon does more damage" rather than "your skill with the attack allows extra damage". for answering this question don't take a D2 weapon but say a great axe. getting max damage on that gives an extra dice meaning more weapon damage right? not precision damage?

if so then the damage reduction would be completely pointless against the D2 as you do 1000 damage with your tiny dagger rather than 5 damage and 995 precision damage (which, since the original amount did not overcome DR you get no precision damage).

[Chronos]

Why does it matter if it's precision damage? It's all done on one attack, and the damage reduction is applied to the total. If you have a 1 damage weapon with 20d6 sneak attack, and hit something with DR 5, then on average you're going to get 66 points of damage through.

So if you're worried that your opponent might have damage reduction, just roll until you have ludicrous damage plus fifty or whatever, instead of just ludicrous damage.

[Vogonjeltz]

E: vogonjeltz, that's not how a d2 crusader works. They actually do roll a d2, hence the name. There is never a 'do not roll', and there is a direct 'as if you rolled [maximum]'.

I see that I didn't express myself clearly, that's my fault.

Two examples were given, one where the user is using a weapon that deals 1 damage (hence not rolling a die AND automatically dealing max damage); the other using a 1d2.

In both cases, the concept is flawed because the rules specifically aren't working the way they are claimed to be working. Here's what the rules are, verbatim:


Luck : When rolling for damage, treat any die roll result of 1 as 2, unless 1 is the maximum result possible.

When one or more of your damage dice show a maximum possible result, reroll each such die and add its result to the original damage total.

Those are the operative lines from Imbued Healing and Aura of Chaos. Note the aura requires the dice to show the maximum result. If you roll a 1 and it's treated as a 2, you still didn't roll a 2, which is the requirement for aura of chaos to activate. Ipso Facto, TO are shenanigans because they don't actually work using the rules as written.


Actually as the thing mentioned involves explicit discarding and rolling again you're wrong on a basic level. A 2 is always rolled using that trick. Any other tries?

Aura of chaos mentions re-rolling if and only if the maximum result is shown on the die. Imbued Healing doesn't change what the die roll shows, it just changes how it's treated. That distinction means I am right on all levels, not just the basic ones. Thank you anyway.

[eggynack]

Those are the operative lines from Imbued Healing and Aura of Chaos. Note the aura requires the dice to show the maximum result. If you roll a 1 and it's treated as a 2, you still didn't roll a 2, which is the requirement for aura of chaos to activate. Ipso Facto, TO are shenanigans because they don't actually work using the rules as written.

You did roll a 2. You rolled the die, and the result is treated as though it were a 2 for all purposes. There's no real limitation to how far the 2 treating goes, to the extent that the 1 on the die might as well just be considered another 2. This isn't one of those cases where the ability is like, "A 1 is treated as a 2 for the purposes of damage, caster level, and coolness." So, while you rolled a 1, that result is treated as a 2 for the purposes of the result you rolled, so you rolled a 2.

[Waddacku]

That is to say, since you treat it as a roll of 2, the die is showing 2 for the purpose of looking at what it shows.

[nedz]

Ipso Facto, TO are shenanigans because they don't actually work using the rules as written.

This is a Gross over-generalisation.

Even if you were right about d2 crusader, which is debatable, it is only one example of TO. To claim all TO are shenanigans based on one example is disingenuous.

[Vogonjeltz]

You did roll a 2. You rolled the die, and the result is treated as though it were a 2 for all purposes. There's no real limitation to how far the 2 treating goes, to the extent that the 1 on the die might as well just be considered another 2. This isn't one of those cases where the ability is like, "A 1 is treated as a 2 for the purposes of damage, caster level, and coolness." So, while you rolled a 1, that result is treated as a 2 for the purposes of the result you rolled, so you rolled a 2.

No, it's saying the damage on the roll of a 1 is actually 2, it's not at all saying you actually rolled a 2.


That is to say, since you treat it as a roll of 2, the die is showing 2 for the purpose of looking at what it shows.

Also no, it's saying that 1s count as 2s, it's not sayin you rolled max damage, that would require actually rolling the 2.


This is a Gross over-generalisation.

Even if you were right about d2 crusader, which is debatable, it is only one example of TO. To claim all TO are shenanigans based on one example is disingenuous.

There isn't a topic in heaven or earth that isn't debatable. Such is the nature of debate.

[eggynack]

No, it's saying the damage on the roll of a 1 is actually 2, it's not at all saying you actually rolled a 2.
Yes, it is. Or rather, you rolled a 2 for every purpose that matters, which includes this.




Also no, it's saying that 1s count as 2s, it's not sayin you rolled max damage, that would require actually rolling the 2.
I don't see the difference. You are treated as though you actually rolled a 2, which is max damage. There is no purpose for whom you are not treated as having rolled a 2, because there's no restriction placed on those purposes, and this, being treated as having rolled a 2, which is max damage, is a subset of all of those purposes.

[Vogonjeltz]

Yes, it is. Or rather, you rolled a 2 for every purpose that matters, which includes this.

I don't see the difference. You are treated as though you actually rolled a 2, which is max damage. There is no purpose for whom you are not treated as having rolled a 2, because there's no restriction placed on those purposes, and this, being treated as having rolled a 2, which is max damage, is a subset of all of those purposes.

The difference is obvious to me. One is a die showing a 2, the other is showing a 1 and being treated as a 2. The aura of chaos only activates when the die is actually showing the maximum number. Two distinct concepts.

If there were an ability that treated the 6s as 4s, it would still proc the aura on a 6.

[eggynack]

The difference is obvious to me. One is a die showing a 2, the other is showing a 1 and being treated as a 2. The aura of chaos only activates when the die is actually showing the maximum number. Two distinct concepts.

But they're really not two distinct concepts. The die is treated as if it were actually showing the maximum number, even if it's not, and it's treated that way for everything. It doesn't actually matter what's actually on the die, because, for all intents and purposes, what's on the die is a 2.

[nedz]

There isn't a topic in heaven or earth that isn't debatable. Such is the nature of debate.

You're Pickford aren't you :smallsigh:
I say this because you completely ignore anything anyone else says whilst reiterating your dis-proven points.
This is not the nature of debate.

[Vogonjeltz]

But they're really not two distinct concepts. The die is treated as if it were actually showing the maximum number, even if it's not, and it's treated that way for everything. It doesn't actually matter what's actually on the die, because, for all intents and purposes, what's on the die is a 2.

It doesn't say that in the ability. All it says is treated as. So no, it's just treated as, the roll is still a 1 (which doesn't activate the aura)

[eggynack]

It doesn't say that in the ability. All it says is treated as. So no, it's just treated as, the roll is still a 1 (which doesn't activate the aura)
Being treated as a 2 means that aura of chaos treats it as a 2. In particular, aura of chaos asks, "Hey, what's showing on the die?" and the die says, "A 1, but we're treating it as if it were a 2," and aura of chaos says, "2 ahoy, then." And then the game breaks.

[Brookshw]

Those are the operative lines from Imbued Healing and Aura of Chaos. Note the aura requires the dice to show the maximum result. If you roll a 1 and it's treated as a 2, you still didn't roll a 2, which is the requirement for aura of chaos to activate. Ipso Facto, TO are shenanigans because they don't actually work using the rules as written.
.

This might seem odd but the bolded are the words your injecting that create the distinction. The operative noun in the sentence being modified is "any die", the one or two are modifiers of the die. If indeed it said "a 2" you could make an argument for distinct nouns that would make your position true and valid. However due to the exact wording that's not the case. The distinction boils down to something along the lines of:
[If die=1, then die=2] vs [if die =1] then 2. They are very distinct but the latter which you are arguing for is not a proper representation. If they were in fact distinct nouns I'd say your correct but the wording doesn't seem to agree.

[Rijan_Sai]

To look at it a slightly different way:

Going back to the quote

When one or more of your damage dice show a maximum possible result, reroll each such die and add its result to the original damage total.
Bolded for emphasis. Note that it says "a" maximum, not "the" maximum. (Pedantic, but so are most RAW/TO discussions.)

Basically: If 1=2, and 2=Max Damage, then 1=Max Damage.

Aura of Chaos does not care about the number shown on the die, only that the number shown deals "a maximum possible result."


Being treated as a 2 means that aura of chaos treats it as a 2. In particular, aura of chaos asks, "Hey, what's showing on the die?" and the die says, "A 1, but we're treating it as if it were a 2," and aura of chaos says, "2 ahoy, then." And then the game breaks.
Not the game, just the creature you decided to *Doink!*
D2 Crusader, the Tonberry of D&D!

[Jormengand]

Okay, okay, let's try explaining this:


Damage Dealt asks "What is the value that the die has rolled?"

If Die has rolled 2, die returns "2."
If Die has rolled 1, die still returns "2" because of the Luck effect, which tells it to return "2"

Attack deals 2 damage + strength in either case.

We all agree on the above, because that's actually the point of the Luck effect. Now, consider this:

Aura of Chaos asks "What is the highest value the die can roll?"

Die returns "2".

Aura of Chaos asks "What is the value that the die has rolled?"

If Die has rolled 2, die returns "2."
If Die has rolled 1, die still returns "2" because of the Luck effect, which tells it to return "2"

Aura of Chaos asks "Is the value that the die has rolled equal to the highest value that the die can roll?"

Die returns "Yes" because 2=2.

If the Luck effect even works for its intended purpose, we know that effects which ask "What is the value that the die has rolled" will always receive an answer of 2, because if it didn't, the Luck effect wouldn't work, and we know (or at least we all agree) that it does work.

Case closed. Thank you.

[malonkey1]

I always assumed it meant "Tippy-level Optimization".

[Jormengand]

I always assumed it meant "Tippy-level Optimization".

No, that's what happens when you take TO and use it as PO.

[Gemini476]

As someone who has studied a bit of math as well as some computing, I might as well chime in on this entire thing.

Luck : When rolling for damage, treat any die roll result of 1 as 2, unless 1 is the maximum result possible.

While you are in this stance, your attacks have the potential to be utterly devastating. When rolling damage for a melee attack, you gain a special benefit from any damage die that rolls its maximum amount (such as a result of 6 on a d6). When one or more of your damage dice show a maximum possible result, reroll each such die and add its result to the original damage total. You can continue to reroll as long as a die shows its maximum possible result, adding each new number to the damage total until each die has shown less than a maximum result.
So you have two operators here.


maximumPossibleNumberRolled=2
numberRolled=random(between 1 and maximumPossibleNumberRolled)

IF(numberRolled==1), numberRolled=2
IF(numberRolled==maximumPossibleNumberRolled AND playerWishesToContinue), repeat until playerWishesToContinue is false.


Imbued Healing makes it so that you essentially have a double-headed coin and keep rerolling as long as you roll heads - there are two results, but both of them are the same.

As far as TO goes, this one is pretty rock-solid. You should probably try to bring up something else if you wish to show that TO is, and I quote,

Shenanigans that probably aren't following the RAW.

[eggynack]

As far as TO goes, this one is pretty rock-solid. You should probably try to bring up something else if you wish to show that TO is, and I quote,
Indeed. It's not like you have to go that far to find discredited TO. I don't think it's a characteristic of all that much TO, but there's a decent amount of it out there.

[Spore]

I always assumed it meant "Tippy-level Optimization".

Since both terms are interchangable it might as well.

[Vogonjeltz]

This might seem odd but the bolded are the words your injecting that create the distinction. The operative noun in the sentence being modified is "any die", the one or two are modifiers of the die. If indeed it said "a 2" you could make an argument for distinct nouns that would make your position true and valid. However due to the exact wording that's not the case. The distinction boils down to something along the lines of:
[If die=1, then die=2] vs [if die =1] then 2. They are very distinct but the latter which you are arguing for is not a proper representation. If they were in fact distinct nouns I'd say your correct but the wording doesn't seem to agree.

The important point is that aura of chaos acts based on what is physically showin on the die. It doesn't matter that both are dealing 2 damage, what matters is that one is showing the maximum damage, the other isn't.

[MikelaC1]

It actually stands for Toronto :smallbiggrin:

[Doug Lampert]

The important point is that aura of chaos acts based on what is physically showin on the die. It doesn't matter that both are dealing 2 damage, what matters is that one is showing the maximum damage, the other isn't.

It's acting on whether the die is showing maximum damage, which it is, the rules don't mention the number 2 specifically at all.

[eggynack]

The important point is that aura of chaos acts based on what is physically showin on the die. It doesn't matter that both are dealing 2 damage, what matters is that one is showing the maximum damage, the other isn't.
But what's physically shown on the die is treated as a 2. Which is max damage. Your argument here really doesn't seem to hold up at all.

[Vogonjeltz]

It's acting on whether the die is showing maximum damage, which it is, the rules don't mention the number 2 specifically at all.

Not maximum damage, maximum possible result.

"When one or more of your damage dice show a maximum possible result,"

1 on a 1d2 is not the maximum possible result, even though it is modified to do equivalent damage to the maximum possible result, 2.

[squiggit]

1 on a 1d2 is not the maximum possible result, even though it is modified to do equivalent damage to the maximum possible result, 2.

But it's not "modified to do equivalent damage", it's treated as a 2. There's a very distinct difference there. If it said what you're claiming it said, it wouldn't work, but it doesn't say that.

[Namfuak]

I think people are missing the real reason d2 Crusader doesn't work. It specifies that a die must show the maximum result, but a d2 would be a coin.

[Svata]

Or a d4/2 rounded up.

[Gemini476]

I think people are missing the real reason d2 Crusader doesn't work. It specifies that a die must show the maximum result, but a d2 would be a coin.

And a d6 is a pencil. Your point?

Generally a d2 is emulated in the same way that old-school d10s were - you roll a die with twice that number of sides and divide by two. So d2 is d4/2 and d5 is d10/2 and d10 is d20/2 and whatnot.

[Nirhael]

I think people are missing the real reason d2 Crusader doesn't work. It specifies that a die must show the maximum result, but a d2 would be a coin.

http://www.img.q-workshop.com/photos/dice/large2/LE/2eru02gen.jpg

[Brookshw]

The important point is that aura of chaos acts based on what is physically showin on the die. It doesn't matter that both are dealing 2 damage, what matters is that one is showing the maximum damage, the other isn't.

My point was never that both were dealing two damage. It's that one is an effective die roll of two vs. A two.


Luck : When rolling for damage, treat any die roll result of 1 as 2 this explicitly says the die roll is a two, regardless of the facing being a one. As I said, if they were discrete nouns I'd by this, but they're not so the argument assumes a false premise and is thus invalid.

[Vogonjeltz]

My point was never that both were dealing two damage. It's that one is an effective die roll of two vs. A two.

this explicitly says the die roll is a two, regardless of the facing being a one. As I said, if they were discrete nouns I'd by this, but they're not so the argument assumes a false premise and is thus invalid.

The luck benefit is based on the result being a 1, the aura the die showing its maximum number. Both can't be true at the same time.

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff: This thread served its purpose a long time ago. Thread locked.