Dreamscarred Press Introduces: Akashic Mysteries [Archive]

Ssalarn

2014-05-19, 11:42 PM

Several months ago we started playtesting on Dreamscarred Press' newest product, a re-imagining of the 3.5 sourcebook Magic of Incarnum, updated for the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game.

Initially dubbed Magic of Incarna (that was not my idea, Andreas wanted to make sure people got where the roots were for the product we were promoting) it has since been named Akashic Mysteries.

Featuring some themes drawing on Hindi and Arabic inspiration, Akashic Mysteries features new base classes, archetypes, and races that utilize a system called veilweaving, where they form crude magical constructs out of akashic energy and power them with their own magically enhanced life-force called essence. Akasha is old, heavy arcane magic that saturates the air of magic rich worlds where spellcasters are common place (though you can flavor it how you will!).

Due to various Dropbox and formatting issues, and the fact that an early thread merging left my first post somewhere in the middle of page 2 of the original thread, I'm creating a new thread with all of the links for all of the pieces of the product line right in the OP for easy reference. As updates and changes are mad to the materials, I'll update the links below so they always take you straight to the most recent version of the various materials. I've linked in all of the current playtest documents below and would love to hear what you have to say! Whether you're a playtester or forum-goer who's been with me since the product launched, or a newcomer who just stumbled across this thread, I hope you find something that interests you. Please feel free to let me know what you think about any and all of the below playtest documents.

The Vizier (https://www.dropbox.com/s/f9q04na3esbznw0/Akashic%20Vizier.pdf), a battlefield controller and master of Veils.

The Guru (https://www.dropbox.com/s/e4igyt3gfbyygr1/Akashic%20Guru.pdf), a skillful combatant and problem-solver who harnesses akasha in unique ways thanks to his personal Philosophy.

The Daevic (https://www.dropbox.com/s/ikqg4wsa3d579s7/Akashic%20Daevic.pdf), a ferocious warrior who gains his powers by allowing himself to be possessed by a powerful akashic outsider known as a daeva.

Akashic Races (https://www.dropbox.com/s/tfwab1frbgm7ocj/Akashic%20Races.pdf): Presented here are the first 3 of 5 akashic races. The Gamla, a race of towering camelfolk; the sobek-khaliq, ferocious crocodilian warriors; and the suqur-kha, a race of nomadic falconoids.

Akashic Archetypes (https://www.dropbox.com/s/7i7aqqibmfb8pgz/Akashic%20Archetypes.pdf): Presented here is the list of akashic archetypes, including archetypes for the magus,monk, fighter, and more.

The Amplifier (https://www.dropbox.com/s/qwavx7k56d2y4v2/TheAmplifier.pdf?dl=0) prestige class.

I will continue to update these links as changes are made to the materials and new materials are introduced. I'd intended to have the first cross-product archetype, a veilweaving archetype for the Warlord from Dreamscarred Press' Path of War, ready for release tonight, but unfortunately I discovered a little late in the evening that I'd drawn up the archetype off of a now out-of-date version of the Warlord, so I will try to have that ready for you within the next day or so after I incorporate the appropriate changes.

Thank you everyone!

**UPDATE**

As thanks to everyone who has helped contribute to this project, I'm providing live pre-alpha access to our upcoming akashic/initiator hybrid class, the Pharaoh (https://www.dropbox.com/s/y02kz963hij8xpv/The%20Pharaoh.pdf). The pharaoh combines elements of the Path of War project and Akashic Mysteries to create something new and unique. Please note that this is an in development class, and as such may be missing substantial portions of information or mechanics. We just wanted to give you a look "under the hood" of some of what we've got coming up in the pipeline. Enjoy!

Twilightwyrm

2014-05-20, 12:14 AM

I just hope they do a better job explaining the mechanic than Magic of Incarnum did. That mechanic took multiple re-readings to get a good idea of what was going on. If they do, I shall be very interested in this. It seems very flavorful, and very fun to work with.

Ssalarn

2014-05-20, 07:27 AM

Please feel free to read through and let me know if you still have issues with the mechanics seeming ambiguous to you. We've certainly been working on brushing them up and clarifying things, but if you still have questions remaining I'd be more than happy to work on clarifying them and refining the rules information.

stack

2014-05-20, 07:37 AM

Sorry I didn't catch his sooner, but how does duration work with the Cuirass of Confidence? If you shape it every day and someone keeps failing their save, do they become fanatical? If they fail once, then you make them mad at you, will repeated fails improve their attitude? Or does it not stack at all, one improvement once ever?

I think it's the later, but can see someone trying it the other way ( someone will try anything I suppose). I know it's too late for the initial release, it didn't occur to me until I shaped it in a game.

Ssalarn

2014-05-20, 07:53 AM

stack

2014-05-20, 09:21 AM

It should be a non-stacking effect. Once they've been affected they're already under the Veil's influence and can't be affected by it again while the current effect is still ongoing.

And the effect has duration permanent with no possibility of removal by any means?

Ssalarn

2014-05-20, 09:57 AM

The effect should expire after 24 hours, or when the Veil is reshaped, whichever comes first. Any further improvements to the target's attitude (like if the enemy started as hostile, was affected by your veil, and then you made additional Diplomacy checks to shift him to helpful) stay in effect, so that a character who has actually spent the ranks and taken the time to improve the enemy's attitude has a chance of not being instantly murdered when the effect wears off. The Veil should also now have the mind-affecting descriptor as of about 2 updates ago, making it a little less all-encompassing. Not sure how this one slipped past all of us Stack, but I'll get it updated in all of the docs and tag it to be updated in the Vizier .pdf ASAP.

Prime32

2014-05-20, 10:06 AM

Been a while since I looked at this - going over the Vizier document first.

The Vizier nears the pinacle of his craft and Chakra now infuses every item he wields, binding them to his very being
Should be "Essence" or "the energy of his chakras"?

Prerequisites: Con 13, ability to cast 1st-level spells
When you take this feat, choose one school of magic. You can invest Essence into this feat to increase the caster level of one spell you have known or prepared by 1. Prepared casters apply this benefit to all instances of the chosen spell (so if a wizard has prepared fireball twice, both instances gain the benefits). For each additional point of Essence invested in this ability you may choose an additional spell from the selected school to gain this benefit.
That's an odd place to emphasise schools of magic, and you don't directly say that the first spell must be from it. I'd say there's a risk of people skimming the feat and mistaking it for a school-wide boost. May I suggest...

Prerequisites: Con 13, Spell Focus
You can invest Essence into this feat. For each point so invested, choose one of your spells known: the caster level of that spell is increased by 1. Each of these spells must be from a school for which you have selected the Spell Focus feat. You may not choose the same spell multiple times for this effect.
This way is harder to qualify for, but provides a way to expand the range of spells it can effect. I don't see the need to specify "spells prepared", since any spell prepared is automatically a spell known.

I'm sure it's come up, but is there any reason Essence of the Immortal is the only feat to retain the "counts as X for prerequisites" clause? (in particular letting Focused Critical count as Critical Focus would be nice)

Finally, as a random idea, how would you feel about halving the hp gain from Akasha-Imbued Body (to 1hp per feat) but making it temporary hit points that reset between encounters? It's not how Psionic Body works, but it gives the feat more of its own niche - Essence is generally more of a "renewable resource" than psionics after all. :smalltongue:

Ssalarn

2014-05-20, 10:26 AM

@Prime32

I like those ideas!

Thanks for the catch on Akasha-Infused Spells and Essence Bond (Body). I like your fix for AIS and I'll add it to the playtest docs and see what the community thinks. Note that the Vizier is already pending .pdf release so that change may not be visible in the initial release, even if we decide that it is the best way to go.

Part of me is very happy for the renewed attention from releasing the new docs and project name, part of me is worried that Jeremy is going to roast me slowly over an open fire when I send him this list of changes to something that went into layout like two months ago.... But that's why DSP does the .pdf releases before anything goes to print, to make sure that everything has gotten as much exposure to as wide an audience as possible so errors don't make into the print run and everyone gets the highest quality product possible.

Essence of Movement should also have a "counts as X" clause to allow it to serve as Mobility, but the powers-that-be really wanted to avoid having a bunch of material that flat out replaced core material, so more of it now works side-by-side with its core counterparts. If we have a "counts as" dsiclaimer, the current general ruling is that the two don't stack, so we're creating a situation where we're hedging out materials instead of increasing the total material available. I know the "counts as" is a big legacy item of the original material that basically opened up traditionally mediocre feats and created the potential for them to be really good and give alternate paths for prereq qualification, but we've basically exchanged the alternate pre-reqs for increased compatibility. Notice that Essence of Movement actually works quite a bit differently than Mobility even though it kept the "counts as" notation, meaning there is the possibility that someone might choose to take both.

deuxhero

2014-05-20, 11:17 AM

Gamla have reach like any other "tall" large creature, correct?

Their bonus essense mentions "incarna".

Ssalarn

2014-05-20, 12:09 PM

Gamla have reach like any other "tall" large creature, correct?

Their bonus essense mentions "incarna".

Yes, Gamla have reach just like any other tall creature, they just can't wield large size weapons.
Thanks for the terminology catch, I'll get that updated in the playtest docs.

Prime32

2014-05-20, 03:43 PM

I'm having trouble copy-pasting content from the PDFs, but it's not a big issue.

Anyway, incarnum had a reputation for confusing people who didn't read it cover-to-cover. While I don't know how the final product will be edited, I'd like to raise a few concerns:

Every Veil is associated with a chakra, even if it is not bound to it.
I think this was one of the biggest points of confusion for newcomers. They occupy body slots, but only sometimes, and sometimes it's a special kind of body slot that stacks with everything except itself. How much sacred cow slaughtering would it be to allow shaping multiple types of hand-based veils at once (visually they'd manifest in a combined form?), and make the body slot restrictions strictly a part of chakra binding? Or would that introduce balance issues from how Veil bonuses are distributed between slots?

Veils can be bound to a slot to increase their power once a character has reached a certain level of experience in manipulating Akasha.
This too, since there's no implication that this is limited to certain classes. If someone read the veils before the classes then they could assume anyone can bind to chakras with no limits.
When I was playing around with the idea of an incarnum revision a few years ago I went as far as to excise all mention of binds and body slots from the introductory section, then give incarnates a class feature called "Chakra Binds" (other classes and feats received Chakra Binds "as an incarnate of X level"). I should point out that it's possible to create a heavily Akashic character who never uses chakra binds at all (using Akashic races, feats, archetypes and maybe items and spells), so at the very least this seems like something that should be brought up in the Veils chapter rather than in the section on universal mechanics.

The Guru can forge his Essence into a weapon capable of disrupting an enemy's chakra, causing non-lethal damage[...]

All Gurus learn to master the art of the Gentle Touch, a mystical martial art that involves dealing nonlethal damage with focused bursts of chakra.

his chakra flow is torn apart

the Guru's mastery of chakra

the Guru's ability to disrupt an opponent's chakra

the Guru's mastery of the flow of chakra
Chakras are spiritual organs, not a substance that can be measured, and they do not flow (but they influence energy that flows through them). I'd be okay with using "chakra" to refer to an energy, except that it's inconsistent - the intro says that the energy is called Essence and that chakras are points on the body. Not to mention that "chakra is an energy" will make people think of Naruto.
Also, inconsistent spelling of "nonlethal" in the first two quotes.

The Sineater also gains the Improved Unarmed Strike feat as a bonus feat

As a full round action the Sineater can increase his melee reach by 5 feet as his body becomes shrouded in tainted Akashic energy and make a single unarmed strike against all enemies in reach.Odd to word it in that order - generally it would "He makes an attack. His reach for this attack is increased.". Also does the reach increase last just for the attack, for 1 round, or forever? :smalltongue:

1/day as a free action, the Guru can restore a single use of Stunning Fist by taking 3 points of Essence burn.
Only one extra use? A daily use limit and a cost? :smallconfused: I'm wondering if you meant restore all uses of Stunning Fist or something, because even the Extra Stunning feat gave you +3 uses without hurting yourself, and hardly anyone took it.

[More chakra stuff]"Flow of chakra energy" is fine, if a little odd. "The flow of chakra" at lv18 isn't.

At 2nd level and every three levels thereafter you gain the ability to bind Veils directly to your chakras, unlocking potent abilities.

PsyBomb

2014-05-20, 04:20 PM

I spoke about it briefly in the other topic, but my main comment right now would be to watch carefully what level binds come online. Constant True Seeing from the Body bind of Eyes of the Archer Lord is decent at 20. Constant shareable Air Walk from Airborne Imbuement is not.

I'm also a big proponent of counts-as for as many feats as possible, even with non- stacking clauses, if only to open different paths to otherwise underused options

Ssalarn

2014-05-20, 04:57 PM

I've been in touch with Jeremy and after some of the new feedback I've gotten since the renewed interest of the re-titled thread and some prior notes that have been corroborated a bit I'm thinking about pulling the Vizier out of layout and going back in to complete a terminology clean up and incorporate a few of the changes to minor issues or clarifications that have been caught. Instead of some of this "chakra energy" business, we focus the terminology as tightly as possible so it's very clear we've got a limited number of specific new terms.

Chakra Slots- areas on the body that control the outward flow of Essence.

Essence- the mystical embodiment of your own spirit and life energy. This is the stuff that is coursing through your body 24/7 and which can be accessed/controlled via your chakra slots. Everyone has it, but few people have it in great enough quantities to utilize it for any purpose beyond sustaining life.

Chakra Binding- a technique experienced veilweavers use to amplify the power of their veils and akashic abilities, often creating additional and spectaular effects.

Veils and Akasha- Akasha is essentially "heavy" arcane magic that gathers around large sources of Essence. Beings who are strong of will or properly trained can shape akasha into veils, which are basically crude arcane constructs designed to serve a specific purpose. Akasha's natural ability to act as a conduit makes it highly compatible with other power sources, often serving as an amplifier for more refined arcane, divine, or psionic energy.

I'll codify the segments discussing this terminology a little more tightly and bring everything in the playtest docs and the Vizier final draft "up to code".

This will also give me a chance to expand the Vizier's veil list a bit for his initial release, adding in veils designed to complement psionic and Path of War initiator classes that were originally slated for the archetype and final product releases.

The good news: they just added like 30 additional pages to the Path of War final compiled release, so odds are good that I can get this busted out by the end of the week and the first release and the subscription for Akashic Mysteries doesn't get delayed any more than it already would have due to the additional Path of War materials.

@Prime32

I think that touches on several of your general notes and some of your Guru notes as well. Currently we're not going to be going "slotless" with the veils, for balance, flavor, and compatibility reasons. I will, however, talk to Jeremy and Andreas and see if we can put in a sidebar for an alternate system where players can remove the slot reqs and bind by level since there have been one or two other people interested in something like that.

On the Guru-
Thanks for the spell check on IUS. I'll get that fixed.

Stunning Fist- So, you get the ability to restore a use of Stunning Fist by taking 3 minutes worth of Essence Burn (it takes 1 minute to recover a point of Essence Burn). Considering that Stunning Fist uses are basically currency for other abilities the Guru has access to, and can be pretty gnarly when it works in its own right, it's not a bad trade. Originally there was not a per day limitation on this ability, but I had more conservative segments of the gaming population ready to burn me at the stake for introducing effectively unlimited Stunning Fist attempts. The Guru gets up to 20 uses of Stunning Fist just like a monk and one more he can pull out of his hat at a free action in a pinch. What if we scaled the ability a bit so that you get an additional use every 5 levels?

Maelstrom of Sin- I'll tighten up the verbage a bit to clarify that your reach increases by feet for the duration of the ability only. Probably "As a full round action the Sineater's body becomes shrouded in tainted Akashic energy and he make a single unarmed strike against all enemies in reach. The shroud of energy surrounding him allows him to treat his reach as 5 feet greater when determining who he can target with this ability." Sound good?

I spoke about it briefly in the other topic, but my main comment right now would be to watch carefully what level binds come online. Constant True Seeing from the Body bind of Eyes of the Archer Lord is decent at 20. Constant shareable Air Walk from Airborne Imbuement is not.

I'm also a big proponent of counts-as for as many feats as possible, even with non- stacking clauses, if only to open different paths to otherwise underused options

To be fair, the background mechanics behind determing spell power says that the constant communal air walk effect is equal to or better than the constant true seeing effect.

That being said, you are absolutely right that in practice those two abilities have a substantial gulf in how useful they actually are to the party, and as such I'm rewriting the bind ability of Airborne Imbuement so that it instead gives the Guru a certain amount of environmental mastery while airborne. I'm toying with the idea of giving him SLA's scaled on Essence investment with a universal duration... Anyways, you should get to see it soon.

Prime32

2014-05-20, 05:53 PM

Currently we're not going to be going "slotless" with the veils, for balance, flavor, and compatibility reasons. I will, however, talk to Jeremy and Andreas and see if we can put in a sidebar for an alternate system where players can remove the slot reqs and bind by level since there have been one or two other people interested in something like that.That wasn't my concern. I'm fine with chakra binds being based on slots, I just don't like unbound veils having them. When most veils could be associated with multiple slots anyway, it barely feels worth keeping track of. And since you have to reference the list of chakra binds to figure out where they can go (or at least, the list of chakra binds for each veil is the same as its list of slots), a player could easily get confused into thinking that assigning a veil to a slot is a chakra bind (leading to the conclusion either "unbound veils are slotless" or "all veils are bound to a chakra for free").
Putting this stuff in an alternate rule wouldn't do anything to make it less confusing. If anything it could make it more confusing - see magic-psionics transparency.

Stunning Fist- So, you get the ability to restore a use of Stunning Fist by taking 3 minutes worth of Essence Burn (it takes 1 minute to recover a point of Essence Burn). Considering that Stunning Fist uses are basically currency for other abilities the Guru has access to, and can be pretty gnarly when it works in its own right, it's not a bad trade. Originally there was not a per day limitation on this ability, but I had more conservative segments of the gaming population ready to burn me at the stake for introducing effectively unlimited Stunning Fist attempts. The Guru gets up to 20 uses of Stunning Fist just like a monk and one more he can pull out of his hat at a free action in a pinch. What if we scaled the ability a bit so that you get an additional use every 5 levels?Well right now it's a really, really weak option. What if the Guru didn't count as a monk for uses per day and thus had to rely mostly on Essence Burn to power it? (meaning he can't afford to spam it)

Maelstrom of Sin- I'll tighten up the verbage a bit to clarify that your reach increases by feet for the duration of the ability only. Probably "As a full round action the Sineater's body becomes shrouded in tainted Akashic energy and he make a single unarmed strike against all enemies in reach. The shroud of energy surrounding him allows him to treat his reach as 5 feet greater when determining who he can target with this ability." Sound good?Maybe "As a full-round action the Sineater can make a single unarmed attack against each enemy within reach. His reach for these attacks is increased by +5ft as a shroud of tainted Akashic energy surrounds him." Or "As a full-round action the Sineater can unleash a vortex of tainted Akashic energy through which he can make a single attack against each enemy in reach. Treat these attacks as unarmed strikes, except that their reach is +5ft greater than normal."
(If you're making multiple attack rolls then it's "each enemy"; "all enemies" implies it's a single attack roll compared to each target's AC, but that would need to be said explicitly)

Ssalarn

2014-05-20, 06:04 PM

That wasn't my concern. I'm fine with chakra binds being based on slots, I just don't like unbound veils having them. When most veils could be associated with multiple slots anyway, it barely feels worth keeping track of. And since you have to reference the list of chakra binds to figure out where they can go, a player could easily get confused into thinking that assigning a veil to a slot is a chakra bind (leading to the conclusion either "unbound veils are slotless" or "all veils are bound to a chakra for free").
Putting this stuff in an alternate rule wouldn't do anything to make it less confusing. If anything it could make it more confusing - see magic-psionics transparency.

I think that clear definitions of the terminology is going to be a better way of going forward than trying to implement a system where Veils are slotless until you bind them, at which point they aren't.... It also conflicts with the flavor of the system (I'm wearing 4 pairs of magic boots!) and creates issues with other pieces of the design, including Daevic class balance, veils created in complementary sets, etc.

Maybe "As a full-round action the Sineater can make a single unarmed attack against each enemy within reach. His reach for these attacks is increased by +5ft by a shroud of tainted Akashic energy that surrounds him."
(If you're making multiple attack rolls then it's "each enemy"; "all enemies" implies it's a single attack roll compared to each target's AC, but that would need to be said explicitly) .

I'll get this cleaned up and post a changelog so everyone can review the end result. Thanks for the help hammering this one into shape!

Well right now it's a really, really weak option. What if the Guru didn't count as a monk for uses per day and thus had to rely mostly on Essence Burn to power it? (meaning he can't afford to spam it)

At low levels it can be pretty strong. For a 1st-5th level character, having an extra "win button" can be a pretty big deal. I'd prefer to either look at a scaling option like I mentioned earlier, or maybe change the formula for number of Stunning Fist uses recovered to "1/2 class level (minimum 1)".

Prime32

2014-05-20, 06:10 PM

I think that clear definitions of the terminology is going to be a better way of going forward than trying to implement a system where Veils are slotless until you bind them, at which point they aren't.... It also conflicts with the flavor of the system (I'm wearing 4 pairs of magic boots!) and creates issues with other pieces of the design, including Daevic class balance, veils created in complementary sets, etc."Four pairs of magic boots" is simple. If one veil would create glowy boots made out of fire, and another would create glowy boots with spikes on them, you get glowy boots with spikes made out of fire. :smallwink:

I'll get this cleaned up and post a changelog so everyone can review the end result. Thanks for the help hammering this one into shape!Edited in an alternate wording just as you were posting. :smalltongue: It seems fluffier.

At low levels it can be pretty strong. For a 1st-5th level character, having an extra "win button" can be a pretty big deal. I'd prefer to either look at a scaling option like I mentioned earlier, or maybe change the formula for number of Stunning Fist uses recovered to "1/2 class level (minimum 1)".Hmm... the dual cost thing would be less weird if it was worded as a side effect. That is, instead of "1/day you can use this ability by taking 3 points of Essence Burn", say "1/day you can use this ability. When you use this ability you take 3 points of Essence Burn".

Ssalarn

2014-05-20, 11:21 PM

The Veil Lord archetype, for the Warlord from Path of War, has been added to the Akashic Archetypes document. Let me know what you think.

StreamOfTheSky

2014-05-20, 11:27 PM

*Came into thread excited to find some newly updated version of the Arcane Evolved class Akashic, or classes related to the same thematic concepts. Sees it's actually about one of my least favorite/understood subsystems from 3E, using "Akashic" as just another term for arcane magic. Leaves thread disappointed.*

deuxhero

2014-05-21, 01:04 AM

Where are the basic rules located? Not really that well acquainted with Incarnum.

Still, a number of things I noticed that don't really depend on knowing anything from a quick skim of Vizier.

Having to "hit" your allies with the Bangles of the Jealous Seductress at the start of each day till they beat the will save seems silly.

"As Enlarge Person" on Dark Lords isn't really helpful given the target is undead, not humanoid.

Does additional attacks fall under "additional abilities" related to BAB for hand cannons?

Heart of the Wright stops the mystic spell Borrowed Time (You have to get it via an infusion alchemists), even though that has a backup clause for characters that are immune to such damage already. Wording should be tweaked a bit.

The feet ability of Horselord's Greaves is marked V4 (which I assume means vizer 4 as a requirement), but the belt is unnumbered. I know next to nothing about the subsystem, but isn't Phantom Steed the higher level spell, not mount? At will Mount has its uses Phantom Steed doesn't cover (send it down the trapped hallway, you can always get another), but...

Do Bralani's Borch (Shoulders) and pestilence cloak stack?

Do Storm Gauntlets (Wrists) stack with non ice/elec/sonic properties (like flaming)?

PsyBomb

2014-05-21, 06:50 AM

On the Warlord archetype:

Haven't done much looking, but two notes so far. First, there is no listed duration to the bonus Essence from Essence Eruption. Second, the weapon-like veils are not treated as being in certain weapon groups, which makes their use with certain Maneuvers problematic unless your DM is permissive.

EDIT: once last thing, the class doesn't have any permanent Essence of its own, only the Veils it learns to shape... which makes its supply/demand game really strange in that it goes straight from 1 maximum used at level 5 all the way to four once you hit 6 (or higher if you took a Feat). A Sobek in the class would be unconcerned with any temporary generation until he hit level 6, at which point he has a severe deficit until he takes Extra Essence at 7 (the feat is completely wasted at 5).

I dunno, need someone with more Warlord experience to comment here.

avr

2014-05-21, 08:12 AM

Ssalarn

2014-05-21, 08:19 AM

For simplicity's sake, assume Essence Eruption has the same duration as Essence Gamble.
I'll get that added to the doc this evening.

@Deuxhero
Your question is actually a bit of an answer for one of my own questions. The rules are located just before the Veil list in the Vizier doc, but if they weren't easy to locate or comprehensive enough to convey the system to someone unfamiliar with it, than I obviously still have work to do.

Players like you and AVR are some of the people I most want to hear from; since you never really got into Incarnum you don't have preconceptions about what it is or how it works, so if you don't get something just by reading the playtest doc, I know I've got to do more to lay it out more simply and effectively for you.

Ssalarn

2014-05-21, 08:25 AM

I'm looking at the Daevic and I'm not really seeing how its veils and most of the class features are useful for a martial character. With a d10 HD and full BAB it's clearly intended as a frontliner, but aside from a few veils which might give minor DR or damage boosts, and minor bonuses to CMB it doesn't seem to have anything related. What am I missing?

(I'm not especially familiar with incarnum.)

It's Veils primarily facilitate combat styles, grant DR, give natural attacks, or enhance CHA-based abilities. You can play an effective natural attack combatant or more of a lead-from-the-front charismatic type.
I'm on my phone right now, but I'll try and elaborate a bit on ways the Daevic's Veils can and should work a little bit later today.

deuxhero

2014-05-21, 09:21 AM

I only see a veil/essense/binds by level there (unless it has been moved in response). I saw it and the vielshaping class feature, but I figured there has to be more to it than that.

Ssalarn

2014-05-21, 10:11 AM

You've got me worried now that I cut something and forgot to paste....

Ok, apparently at some point I thought it was a genius idea to chop up the rules and put the Essence table at the top and then stick everything else important down towards the bottom right above the feats in the two sections titled "Chakras and Veils" and "Akasha and Magic Interactions".

I'm going to break those rules up and lay them out a little bit differently, as well as adding a terminology guide.

I'll get the layout fixed hopefully this evening and the flow will be

Class
Feats
Rules
Veils

Prime32

2014-05-21, 10:12 AM

Dunno if you're still looking for ideas for new material, but:
Dromite racial archetype for one of the akashic classes: Instead of shaping veils normally, they moult into a new form that integrates features of the chosen veils into their bodies (possibly making them harder to destroy?).
If DSP doesn't want to take dromites in that direction then create a new insectoid race that uses that mechanic for all akashicness. I figure this route would have room for feats and PrCs that transform them into different castes, like workers/soldiers/queens.

A race of bald people with ash-like skin. They have the ability to invest Essence in their bodies, causing flames to burst from their scalp, wrists and ankles that shed light (starting as a candle, doubling with each added point). For each point of Essence their attacks deal bonus "brightflame" damage (as fire damage but ignores resistance/immunity), and 20% of any special attack (spells/veils, etc.) that deals fire damage is converted to brightflame damage. They have a racial slam attack, and possibly some easy way to convert spells/veils to fire-based.

A daevic veil which creates ghostly images of your daeva's limbs or body parts that deliver your attacks for you, giving them increased reach and the ghost touch property. Binding it to the right chakra causes an image of the whole daeva to float around and defend you, granting you the defensive benefits of the incorporeal subtype.

Daevic doc:

At 11th level the Daevic has become so good at getting what she wants that her words are nearly impossible to resist.
The spells mentioned in the 20th-level Dominion ability should be lowercase italic.

The Bloody Shroud veil grants bonus Essence for 1 round, but it's not that useful unless you can invest the Essence immediately.

Ssalarn

2014-05-21, 11:01 AM

Question for the community-
Does the Vizier's Essence Bond ability just seem to cumbersome? Would it be better to drop the class ability, give him standard Binds at the appropriate level, and then maybe just expand his path abilities a bit to include some auras?

For example, the Crafter could have an aura that increases the DC and/or caster level of all spells cast from wands, staves, and wondrous items, and then a later ability where allies in the aura maybe have a small chance to activate an item without spending a charge, and we could shift the Seer's Path abilities so that instead of applying to allies based on Essence, it's instead an aura with a radius that increases based on Essence investment, and later he gets a secondary effect that gives all allies in the aura some kind of bonus to saves?

Sewercop

2014-05-21, 11:44 AM

I am still surprised wotc havent sued you guys for ip theft. You say it yourself, you even mention the source many times,even the words itself. How is this not plagiarism at it worst?

stack

2014-05-21, 11:47 AM

Ssalarn

2014-05-21, 12:17 PM

I am still surprised wotc havent sued you guys for ip theft. You say it yourself, you even mention the source many times,even the words itself. How is this not plagiarism at it worst?

Because there's an OGL out there. We can't put "Magic of Incarnum" in the title, but we can certainly tell people in the forums that the mechanics are based on those previously seen in that work.
The races, classes, veils, etc. are all completely new and unique to Dreamscarred Press, and while there is some mechanical overlap in a few of the feats, that's more due to the nature of the system and the fact that there's only so many ways to write "add x for y effect". Dreamscarred Press is very familiar with the OGL and all of its requirements and is operating well inside its parameters on both the Akashic Mysteries and Path of War products.

PsyBomb

2014-05-21, 12:31 PM

Ssalarn

2014-05-21, 12:37 PM

The bonuses are a bit fiddly in some cases, like the hand bind. Rarely worth the standard action at low levels due to the short duration. The foot bind bonus is nice though, the extra speed makes pestilence-based flight much faster. Also helps with overland travel. I could get behind expanding the paths instead, though that would be more for future paths to have to fill in as well. I guess that could be a positive, actually, granting more design space for future paths.

The gamla actually strikes me as a great chassis for a wrath daevic. The smaller weapons shouldn't apply to natural attacks (powerful build doesn't), and the extra reach is great. Dex penalty doesn't matter in heavy armor and Con is nice.

Okay, I think I'm going to look into going that route then, trimming out the moving parts that bringing unnecessary complications and expanding the Paths to be a little more robust.

I actually kind of like that idea, it brings the Vizier a little more in line with the Psion as far as that implementation of a base caster chassis with some plug and play options to customize it. I'll try and get you guys a playtest doc showing what that will look like before the end of this weekend. That may even open room for me to add an additional Path to the initial release!

On the gamla-
It's kind of my favorite akashic race so far, and was something I've had in my folder of homebrew stuff for a long time. I think it's really a pretty decent race for any of the akashic classes, though granted Vizier has some impediments since the 12 foot tall caster is probably going to make a pretty tempting target. I think he does a pretty good job of complimenting the materials without being OP. And of course, it's surprising how many people love the opportunity to spit in the enemy's eye and get some mechanical reward out of it.

Miss Disaster

2014-05-21, 12:42 PM

squiggit

2014-05-21, 12:51 PM

Snake charmer Magus' adamant coils doesn't have a listed duration.

The races are all pretty damn cool, Sobek is probably my favorite but.... 20 foot base speed makes me cringe. A lot.

Also feels a bit weird that Desire Daevics don't have diplomacy. I mean I understand that's because it's on Dominion's list but it still feels like Desire's fluff is screaming for it.

Minor stuff:
The Suqur doesn't have a listed size in its stat block.

I haven't played the warlord enough to judge its strength but I really like the idea behind it. WotC's rule on not mixing two noncore subsystems always really irked me and it's nice to see that design space being explored.

Ssalarn

2014-05-21, 01:10 PM

This looks exciting, Ssalarn! I'll be certainly picking up Akashic Mysteries.

Quick Question (my apologies if it was mentioned here or in another thread) ...

I'm a big fan of the Incarnum Spellshaping feat from MoI. Especially for plain old use by wizards, clerics, etc. who aren't using any of the Incarnum classes. Will there be something similar to additional and new arcane & divine spells with the [Incarnum] spell descriptor? In essence, to allow me to add more of these spell types to be used by the original Incarnum Spellshaping feat?

If there's an equivalent or corollary game mechanics in Akashic Mysteries that does this, I'm up for that as well. Even if it involves some swapping-out or re-fluffing.

Thank you!

I do have some stuff that's been kind of tucked away and marked "potential additional material" that includes akashic spell options. So in answer to your question, there isn't really anything out there right now that matches up with Incarnum Spellshaping though there are some feats specifically designed to help standard spellcasters dip a toe into the system.

One of my long term goals with the project is to start creating classes, archetypes, and options for characters who utilize an Essence Pool and some of these feats without doing any veilweaving. We've already started to kind of explore that idea a bit in some of the archetypes we've got out there and there's some stuff on the table to really delve into that aspect of things a bit later if we see success with this initial run. Enhanced ability to interact with veils, Essence, and other components of the subsystem and integrate them into traditional spellcasters is definitely part of that game plan.

Snake charmer Magus' adamant coils doesn't have a listed duration.

The races are all pretty damn cool, Sobek is probably my favorite but.... 20 foot base speed makes me cringe. A lot.

Also feels a bit weird that Desire Daevics don't have diplomacy. I mean I understand that's because it's on Dominion's list but it still feels like Desire's fluff is screaming for it.

Minor stuff:
The Suqur doesn't have a listed size in its stat block.

I haven't played the warlord enough to judge its strength but I really like the idea behind it. WotC's rule on not mixing two noncore subsystems always really irked me and it's nice to see that design space being explored.

Thanks for the notes! I'm glad you like the materials so far. I'll go in and fix the Suqur's size entry and note the duration on Adamant Coils.

I'm going through all 3 classes with a fine-toothed comb this week, so I'll keep your suggestion for the Desire Daevic in mind while I'm working with that class. There's a somewhat different layout for the Passions being looked at, so evaluating things like possible additions/subtractions to the Passion skill and Veil lists isn't going to be really adding anything to the work load that wasn't going to get reviewed anyways.

Gemini476

2014-05-21, 07:07 PM

I am still surprised wotc havent sued you guys for ip theft. You say it yourself, you even mention the source many times,even the words itself. How is this not plagiarism at it worst?

As long as they do not copy things outright they should be fine, as far as I understand it. However, I Am Not A Lawyer and you should not rely on what I write in regards to legal matters. And giving legal advice is against the forum rules.

Let me just say that you cannot copyright game mechanics, Wizards to my knowledge have not patented Incarnum, and as far as I know nothing in Akashic Mysteries is copy-pasted from non-OGL products nor share names.

Copyright in regards to rolplaying games is pretty complicated.

Ssalarn

2014-05-21, 07:22 PM

As long as they do not copy things outright they should be fine, as far as I understand it. However, I Am Not A Lawyer and you should not rely on what I write in regards to legal matters. And giving legal advice is against the forum rules.

Let me just say that you cannot copyright game mechanics, Wizards to my knowledge have not patented Incarnum, and as far as I know nothing in Akashic Mysteries is copy-pasted from non-OGL products nor share names.

Copyright in regards to rolplaying games is pretty complicated.

Word. One of the first things I asked Andreas when he tapped me for the project was "Isn't that a non-OGL product?"
I have since learned a lot about the way the OGL works, and Andreas and Jeremy are old pros at this.
The important thing is that we have our own Veils, our own classes, our own races, and actually quite a few of our own unique takes on directions you can go with the basic framework of a system that gives you a rotating pool of a set resource.

squiggit

2014-05-21, 07:41 PM

Random thought that popped into my head: Racial feats for the three Akashic races that allow them to bind their essence-based racials to unlock more specialized abilities? Not exactly sure how to execute it well, just the idea popped into my head of a giant camel man hurling some magically akashicly empowered spittle that blinds the foe or turns into acid or... something.

Would also like to see more emphasis on veils that can be bound to multiple slots with different effects, those always seemed particularly fun in MoI deciding how to bind them (at least the ones that didn't make one obviously better than the rest). That's just personal preference though.

"Four pairs of magic boots" is simple. If one veil would create glowy boots made out of fire, and another would create glowy boots with spikes on them, you get glowy boots with spikes made out of fire. :smallwink:

I really like this idea. And if you're eating resources (veils per day, essentia) to use it, I don't see why having two boots is that big of a deal.

Don't have much else meaty to add, though I'll be trying a Sobek Dominion Daevic tomorrow so I might have some thoughts after that.

Miss Disaster

2014-05-22, 11:28 AM

I do have some stuff that's been kind of tucked away and marked "potential additional material" that includes akashic spell options. So in answer to your question, there isn't really anything out there right now that matches up with Incarnum Spellshaping though there are some feats specifically designed to help standard spellcasters dip a toe into the system.

One of my long term goals with the project is to start creating classes, archetypes, and options for characters who utilize an Essence Pool and some of these feats without doing any veilweaving. We've already started to kind of explore that idea a bit in some of the archetypes we've got out there and there's some stuff on the table to really delve into that aspect of things a bit later if we see success with this initial run. Enhanced ability to interact with veils, Essence, and other components of the subsystem and integrate them into traditional spellcasters is definitely part of that game plan.

Thanks for your reply, Ssalarn. I'll look into those feats you mentioned in your first paragraph (above). And I hope to see those Akashic Spell Options make it to print in a future Dreamscarred Press supplement.

Anlashok

2014-05-22, 11:50 AM

Prime32

2014-05-22, 12:34 PM

Would also like to see more emphasis on veils that can be bound to multiple slots with different effects, those always seemed particularly fun in MoI deciding how to bind them (at least the ones that didn't make one obviously better than the rest). That's just personal preference though.You mean like Totem Avatar? Would be cool to see a PrC specialising in one of those veils, eventually letting you bind it to all your chakras at once or transform into the creature it's based on.

I second wanting akashic spell options. Hell, while you're at it akashic psionic options and akashic maneuver options could be cool too....and akashic invocations and vestiges if you ever get around to porting the warlock or binder. What about the opposite? Veils that grant you knowledge of psionic powers, with binds that expand the list or add free augments.

Ssalarn

2014-05-22, 01:01 PM

I'm surprised there's no elephant folk in a game like this.

I second wanting akashic spell options. Hell, while you're at it akashic psionic options and akashic maneuver options could be cool too....and akashic invocations and vestiges if you ever get around to porting the warlock or binder.

I'd also like to see the daevic passions get more versatility. Losing half my class features if I want to play a dominion without a shield or gaining no benefit from my capstone or AoO modifiers if I'm a wrath deva with a one handed weapon or trying to finesse is...eh. I know there's an image in your head of how these specializations are meant to be portrayed, but some flexibility there would be nice.

It's funny that you mention Vestiges. Alexander Augunas, author of Pact Magic Unbound (http://paizo.com/products/btpy8tyw?Pact-Magic-Unbound-Vol-1), the Pathfinder port for the vestige system, recently reached out to DSP on our Facebook page and he and I are now in talks for a future collaborative vestige/akashic release.

Daevic Passions are... I'm going to call them a work in progress. There's a reason the Daevic will be the last of the three classes to release, and those are pretty much our primary culprits. I wrapped up alpha testing on a system where the Passions had kind of a light side / dark side thing going on (Dominion had Tyranny and Benevolence, Wrath had Justice and Vengeance, Desire had Love and Lust), and unfortunately the feedback was pretty universal in that there were just too many moving parts. The Daevic was supposed to be the easy entry class for the akashic system, and unfortunately his evolution during playtesting has moved him farther and farther away from that.

I'm currently thinking about a bit of a revamp where we cut out a lot of the benefits currently obtained through the Passions (defensive abilities, bonus feats, etc.), and we give him a set of bonus feats that can be spent on Akashic or Combat feats, and some flat bonuses through his Daevic Possession class feature that sync up with his new abbreviated but expanded Passion list. So, we go with 9 Passions, 6 of which are like specialized subdomains that work mostly like the primary but subbing out very specific differences.

For Example:
Rickard is a Wrath Daevic. New Wrath would normally grant Rickard a +1 competence bonus per point of Essence invested on all attacks made with slashing weapons, but Rickard has chosen to specialize with Vengeance which replaces that benefit with a +1 competence on all natural attacks. His brother Bran reacted to the trauma that led them to bond with daeva differently and instead follows the path of Justice. Brand gains a +2 competence bonus on all damage rolls made with two-handed slashing weapons.

And the differences would kind of scale out from there, so that the individual Passions offer you smaller benefits than they do currently, but with more directions to build your character in. I'd probably couple this with cutting the Daevic's Essence Pool in half and removing his free Improved Essence Capacity, but then allowing him to count his Passion Veils as automatically acting as though they have 1/2 the Essence invested in his Passion to represent the symbiosis between the Daevic and his daeva.

Thoughts?

I'm surprised there's no elephant folk in a game like this.

There's going to be a total of 5 races. I was seriously considering a race of elephant men for race #5 (race number 4 are the Shiva-esque half-daeva), but Andreas was pretty clear that I had reached and/or exceeded my quota of anthromorphs for this book.

malonkey1

2014-05-22, 01:09 PM

What about the opposite? Veils that grant you knowledge of psionic powers, with binds that expand the list or add free augments.

I like that. I like it a lot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QfSzgV1q5g

PsyBomb

2014-05-22, 01:11 PM

Ssalarn, I love that idea for Passions. I'll type more on this as soon as I get to a computer instead of my phone.

As for "easy entry", the Guru already fits that bill to an extent. Seriously, they play a lot like rogue-mystics with a rotating set of powers they can meditate for (+17 Stealth at level 4 is fun...)

Random question, are either of the two unrevealed races Dex/Wis?

Seerow

2014-05-22, 01:17 PM

There's going to be a total of 5 races. I was seriously considering a race of elephant men for race #5 (race number 4 are the Shiva-esque half-daeva), but Andreas was pretty clear that I had reached and/or exceeded my quota of anthromorphs for this book.

Replace one of the other anthromorphs. I'd take a half-elephant over a Half-Giant Camel.

I'm currently thinking about a bit of a revamp where we cut out a lot of the benefits currently obtained through the Passions (defensive abilities, bonus feats, etc.), and we give him a set of bonus feats that can be spent on Akashic or Combat feats, and some flat bonuses through his Daevic Possession class feature that sync up with his new abbreviated but expanded Passion list. So, we go with 9 Passions, 6 of which are like specialized subdomains that work mostly like the primary but subbing out very specific differences.

For Example:
Rickard is a Wrath Daevic. New Wrath would normally grant Rickard a +1 competence bonus per point of Essence invested on all attacks made with slashing weapons, but Rickard has chosen to specialize with Vengeance which replaces that benefit with a +1 competence on all natural attacks. His brother Bran reacted to the trauma that led them to bond with daeva differently and instead follows the path of Justice. Brand gains a +2 competence bonus on all damage rolls made with two-handed slashing weapons.

This still sounds like it's going to have the same problems he was citing (each passion being very niche, retrained to a very narrow weapon style), having one style be "Slashing weapons" and another be "Two-handed slashing weapons" really doesn't help that. Like at all. Unless you plan to have a few dozen of these.

Also I'm not sure how it solves the problems you were having of too many moving parts. You're still picking a domain and a subdomain, all you changed was the terminology.

The Daevic was supposed to be the easy entry class for the akashic system, and unfortunately his evolution during playtesting has moved him farther and farther away from that.

For what it's worth, I still hate that the class that gets designated as the "Must be simplest for a new player" class is the most martially focused class. I wish just once that the martially focused class could be allowed to be the most complex, while the caster type got the simple end of the stick.

But I also hate that the Daevic is being constrained by what Pathfinder thinks is appropriate for a weapon wielding warrior type to be able to do, with so much effort being wasted on convincing people "No, really, it's not that much better than a Fighter!".

Ssalarn

2014-05-22, 01:44 PM

Replace one of the other anthromorphs. I'd take a half-elephant over a Half-Giant Camel.

But the Gamla are my most popular race! I think they're also the most original; I know that 3.5 had elephant-men and bird-men, and odds are pretty good that there have been alligator-men or crocodile-men in some supplement out there, but I've never seen anyone other than myself and Camel Cigarettes anthropomorphize a camel.

This still sounds like it's going to have the same problems he was citing (each passion being very niche, retrained to a very narrow weapon style), having one style be "Slashing weapons" and another be "Two-handed slashing weapons" really doesn't help that. Like at all. Unless you plan to have a few dozen of these.

Also I'm not sure how it solves the problems you were having of too many moving parts. You're still picking a domain and a subdomain, all you changed was the terminology.

You'd pick a domain or a subdomain. The domains would just offer more specialized options within the framework of the existing domain, and once everything's on paper you'd have a very specific and controlled amount of moving parts that should be easy to mitigate.

For what it's worth, I still hate that the class that gets designated as the "Must be simplest for a new player" class is the most martially focused class. I wish just once that the martially focused class could be allowed to be the most complex, while the caster type got the simple end of the stick.

I think in some ways the whole akashic system is actually going to be pretty simple and accessible. I'm working on some changes to the Vizier right now that are going to simplify him and replace the fiddly bits (Essence Bond) with a smaller number of clean abilities (and of course, regular binds).

But I also hate that the Daevic is being constrained by what Pathfinder thinks is appropriate for a weapon wielding warrior type to be able to do, with so much effort being wasted on convincing people "No, really, it's not that much better than a Fighter!"

You know that I agree on this and you're probably not the only one who recalls a few months back when I was bashing my head against a brick wall trying to convince people that Full BAB =/= low versatility. I still remember wanting to tear my hair out that I could lay the Daevic side-by-side with the Barbarian, Ranger, Paladin, Gunslinger, and Cavalier and show all the ways that he was well-balanced to those classes and immediately have someone respond with how he's too versatile to be almost as good in combat as the Fighter....
I've moved on from that battle, I've made the concessions I'm going to make, and hopefully the end result is something that enough people like that I get to keep doing this and making more stuff.

Just FYI, I'm also working on a class for Amora Games called the Iron Lord who is a full BAB buffing class who can also add elements of battlefield control, healing, group stealth, and more, so breaking that association between full BAB and low versatility in the minds of the gaming population is an ongoing project for me, as is my "Being able to do it all day long shouldn't mean it has to be 50% weaker than other options because everyone is still running off the limited resource called hit points" campaign.

But the last couple paragraphs are a fairly large detour from the actual project :smallwink:

PsyBomb

2014-05-22, 02:29 PM

Ssalarn, the Elephant-Man can be a specified appearance for one of the alternate racial features for Gamla.

stack

2014-05-22, 02:43 PM

Need a prehensile trunk in place of the spit though. Not sure what to add to invest essence into, maybe carrying capacity?

Ssalarn

2014-05-22, 03:17 PM

Ssalarn, the Elephant-Man can be a specified appearance for one of the alternate racial features for Gamla.

I knew there was something I liked about you.....

Since we were actually already talking about giving different "packets" of alternate racial traits to the sobek to represent sobek from different environments, that could be a fun way to basically sneak like an extra half dozen races in!

Any requests for other races who could sit on the Gamla chassis but trade out the Spit and Desert Strider ability for another packet that works for a different type of anthromorph? Off the top of my head, I'm thinking a hippopotamus race, are there any other good large ungulates? Buffalo maybe?

I also like the idea of the leopard or baboon, but I worry they'd require too many changes to the core racial chassis.

squiggit

2014-05-22, 04:00 PM

I like the odd of elephants as an alternate racial package. Thoug if we are taking about replacing a race as mentioned above, my vote would be for the bird people since they have the least dynamic mechanics. They don't seem to do a lot that other winged races don't already do.

Gamla are the most nonstandard without being too weird so probably the most worth keeping.

I can't think of anything other than the previously mentioned hippo for Gamla.... but Sobek could turn into tigers, peacocks... Maybe cobras or something.

There's also some pretty crazy insects and spiders in the relevant regions you're trying to build off of here.

Edit: The Gamla can turn into rhinoceri! That's not a particularly common animal choice either.

Ssalarn

2014-05-22, 04:14 PM

I can't think of anything other than the previously mentioned hippo for Gamla.... but Sobek could turn into tigers, peacocks... Maybe cobras or something.

There's also some pretty crazy insects and spiders in the relevant regions you're trying to build off of here.

Edit: The Gamla can turn into rhinoceri! That's not a particularly common animal choice either.

I love it! I'm going to play around with this and get a couple of these alternate racial packages added to the playtest doc over the weekend.

I'll probably have to snag names to associate with the alternate racials though; Gamla, Sobek, and Suqur literally mean camel, crocodile, and hawk.

PsyBomb

2014-05-22, 06:08 PM

May I request a Tiger race called the Singh, alt race to the Sobek or Suqur? Dex/Wis if possible. They fit the region in question, look up Sikhism for reference.

JusticeZero

2014-05-24, 10:21 PM

PsyBomb

2014-05-24, 10:39 PM

I had a concern that I wasn't sure how to address with the rules, in the specific area of "Self Contained". If an isolated culture or whatever that only knows Akashic tried adventuring, it has a lot of trouble removing ability and level damage, traveling, and likely other major utility abilities. Can they Dispel, for instance? I'm not sure what the best way to address this would be; I have often found a need for some kind of "ritual" abilities to give noncombat access to some of these.

I already mentioned this on the DSP forum, so I'm looking for thoughts from others here.

At the very least, Gurus can Dispel offensively via Sunder Veil and some philosophies can cure a limited selection of status effects (Akasins can Remove Blindness and Raise Dead, Sineaters have Atonement, and Vayists have Breath of Life). They don't have much in the way of travel-boosting capabilities, though I believe that Coward's Boots are on every class list and can help speed things along. I'd need to look through the veils more closely to see if anything has the ability to fix ability damage/drain and the like.

I'll have more tomorrow on this, plus an attempted build.

EDIT: Immaculate Touch can emulate Paladin Mercies. Horselord's Greaves can cast Mount when bound. Heart of the Wight gives bonuses to save against a ton of stuff, not instant removal but helps long-term. That's all I see for now.

EDIT2: The build I'm working on is for a Sineater Guru (don't know why I like the Gurus so much, they just appeal to me). Dipping two levels of Soulknife (Deadly Fist archetype) to start picking up Bladeskills, plus free Flurry. Specifically, the Bladeskill in question is Focused Offense, which allows a complete Strength dump (and low Cha/Int with moderate Dex). Made for a Gamla.

Perhaps a build stub...

15 Point-Buy:

Str: 7 (carrying capacity solved by being Large)
Dex: 13 (was expensive to get, but needed for feats. Gets the level-4 stat point)
Con: 14 (a pity I couldn't take serious advantage here, but had to cut points somewhere and this isn't a mega min-max build)
Int: 10 (can drop to 8 without issue, or 7 for truly high-op, though reinvesting is a challenge)
Wis: 18 (Priority here for items)
Cha: 10 (again, can drop to 8 without issue, or 7 for truly high-op)

1) Deadly Fist 1 (IUS, Flurry, Weapon Finesse)
2) Deadly Fist 2 (Focused Offense!)
3) Guru 1 (Gentle Touch, Piranha Strike, Forcestrike Knuckles online)
*Build is fully online at this point, striking for 1d8+1d4+14 subdual or 1d8+10 lethal*
4) Guru 2 (Hand Bind unlocks, gaining shield bonus to AC, can now affect Undead with Gentle Touch)
5) Guru 3 (Extra Essence feat)
6) Guru 4 (Expanded Capacity!, extra defensive abilities)
*At this point, capacity is 3 with 7 essence in the pool. Unarmed Strike in combat hits for 1d8+3d4+20 (avg 31) subdual or 1d8+16 (avg 20.5) lethal, and has tons of options outside of combat*

EDIT: With the change to Chakra Power on Page 4...
7) Guru 5 (Chakra Power, second bind). cap 3, 9 essence in pool. Unarmed Strike hits for 1d8+3d4+23 (avg 34) subdual or 1d8+19 (avg 23.5) lethal, though this requires ALL essence invested. However, it does leave your Feet bind open, and 2 Veils not yet determined)

Ssalarn

2014-05-25, 12:21 PM

PsyBomb

2014-05-25, 02:00 PM

Hey all, sorry for the communications black-out the last couple of days. My day job had 1 person sick, 1 person on vacation, 1 person with a family emergency, and one person doing out of town business calls so things got crazy.

I've gotten a lot of great feedback from everyone and am currently working on integrating that all into the materials. My goal is to have an update out either tonight or tomorrow including the following changes:

Minor fixes pointed out by Stack, Prime32, and others including things like fixing durations for abilities on veils, classes, and archetypes.

Vizier update - removing Essence Bond, replacing it with a standardized bind progression and path-specific auras. Will try to add a 3rd Path for this update as well once I get some initial feedback from the alpha group on a couple contenders for the spot.

Daevic update - We're expanding the Daevic Possession class feature to include some standardized defenses for all Daevic's, and changing the way the Passions work so that they're simpler, more straightforward packets of abilities.

Guru update - mostly just minor tweaks for clarity here. Airbound Imbuement has a makeover scheduled that I'm hoping to get into this update as well.

All righty guys, stay tuned...

Thanks for the update. As Veils go, also don't forget the Snakehandler's Gauntlets. We spoke about it about 5-6 pages back in the old thread, but DR/Magic is effective for perhaps a level and a half. The bonus against poison and the Bind effect are decent, but not enough to warrant shaping it given that it competes with Forcestrike Knuckles, Armory of the Conqueror, and Gloves of the Master Thief.

Random question, do you plan to have any Good-aligned Veils? There are a few Evil ones, which makes playing a Good Vizier more difficult than it has to be (and some of those are best-in-slot for a long time)

EDIT: Yeah, the more I work with Gurus, the more I'd love to see a PrC for them and Soulknife. Something about evoking their Philosophy from their very soul. As I showed above, this is good for Sineaters already... and if the PrC ends up happening then it'll be an awesome path for any combat-focused Guru.

Ssalarn

2014-05-25, 08:26 PM

Thanks for the update. As Veils go, also don't forget the Snakehandler's Gauntlets. We spoke about it about 5-6 pages back in the old thread, but DR/Magic is effective for perhaps a level and a half. The bonus against poison and the Bind effect are decent, but not enough to warrant shaping it given that it competes with Forcestrike Knuckles, Armory of the Conqueror, and Gloves of the Master Thief.

Random question, do you plan to have any Good-aligned Veils? There are a few Evil ones, which makes playing a Good Vizier more difficult than it has to be (and some of those are best-in-slot for a long time)
***

I've just added the Snakehandler's update to the source docs, so that change will be visible with the rest of the release. Thanks for reminding me!

Currently the Guru has several Good-aligned veils. The Vizier had a few but they.... well, they didn't make it. I'll try and work a few more in there. Do note that you can always take the Tainted Chakra feat to remove the alignment restriction from your veilweaving and also boost the bonuses from some of those veils as well. Any wearer can take Tainted Chakra and shape Heart of the Wight for a +3 profane bonus to saves vs. death effects, disease, paralysis, poison, sleep, and stun effects without any Essence invested, for example.

On the Soulknife PrC/archetype - It's on the list, but we had to be very careful about tip-toeing around "soul" references in this release, so we'd either have to go with different flavor or I'd have to run it by Andreas before we could use that kind of reference.

PsyBomb

2014-05-25, 09:39 PM

I've just added the Snakehandler's update to the source docs, so that change will be visible with the rest of the release. Thanks for reminding me!

Currently the Guru has several Good-aligned veils. The Vizier had a few but they.... well, they didn't make it. I'll try and work a few more in there. Do note that you can always take the Tainted Chakra feat to remove the alignment restriction from your veilweaving and also boost the bonuses from some of those veils as well. Any wearer can take Tainted Chakra and shape Heart of the Wight for a +3 profane bonus to saves vs. death effects, disease, paralysis, poison, sleep, and stun effects without any Essence invested, for example.

On the Soulknife PrC/archetype - It's on the list, but we had to be very careful about tip-toeing around "soul" references in this release, so we'd either have to go with different flavor or I'd have to run it by Andreas before we could use that kind of reference.

Not a problem. Anything I can do to help my favorite subsystem see the light of day once more is the LEAST I can do. Reflavoring it to reference "Forming a weapon out of Akashic energies" is simple enough, but I see your point. If you tiptoe hard (errr, soft?) enough, you can do it without using the word "Soul" anywhere (Make the relevant prerequisite "Have the Bladeskill class feature", which by extension would require them to be a Soulknife... and would allow the Deadly Fist/Soulbolt/Shielded/Armored archetypes). I'm looking forward to anything that progresses both Veilweaving and Enhanced Mind Blade (or equivalent)

I've been taking Tainted Chakra on every Vizier I've made, as well, but occasionally the feat tax forces a delay (especially on Hand Cannon builds) that gets annoying. Might just be the price of business there, though.

stack

2014-05-26, 08:49 AM

I would be careful reducing the daevic's essence capacity boost. Some veils would really suffer. Gorget of the wyrm is already suspect on a daevic, reducing it a step would hurt badly.

PsyBomb

2014-05-26, 10:05 AM

I would be careful reducing the daevic's essence capacity boost. Some veils would really suffer. Gorget of the wyrm is already suspect on a daevic, reducing it a step would hurt badly.

Depends on how he works the "Half of what's in your Passion Bond goes to your Passion Veils." If it's a full stack, then you could get up to 7 investment into it (4 in Veil, 4 in Passion, one extra for Expanded Capacity). Don't have the document in front of me, so I don't know which Passion (if any) includes Gorget.

EDIT: Currently, it is in Wrath.

Ssalarn

2014-05-26, 04:43 PM

Still working on the Daevic and reorganizing and clarifying the subsystem rules and terminology, but the following changes should now be visible in the documents linked in the OP:

Changelog-

Curiass of Confidence updated with duration and additional information.
Akasha-Infused Spells updated to make the “choose 1 school of magic” portion syn up better with the actual ability.
Instance of “Incarna” removed from Gamla racial description.
Sobek-khaliq simplified to Sobek.
Suqur-kha simplified to Suqur.
Size entry added to Suqur racial stats.
Snakehandler’s Gauntlet’s provide DR/Alignment instead of DR/ Magic.
Language updates to Guru to avoid confusing terminology. (Instances of chakra that refer to it as a type of energy have been replaced with Essence).
The guru’s ability to restore a use of stunning fist by taking Essence burn is now useable 1/day + 1 additional use at 5th level and every 5 levels thereafter.
Notation made to Dark Lord’s Ring of Essence Binding to clarify size increase effect.
Essence Bond removed from Vizier abilities and replaced with standard chakra binds.
Crafting time reduction removed from Path of the Crafter initial ability.
Path of the Crafter now grants the following ability: “Any time an ally within 30 feet of the crafter activates a magic item to cast a spell, they may treat the caster level of the spell as 1 higher than normal, or increase the DC of the activated spell by +1.”
Path of the Seer now grants the following ability: “All allies within 60 feet of the Vizier find their movement buoyed by akashic energy, and gains an enhancement bonus of +5 feet to their base speed. This bonus increases by an additional 5 feet at 9th and 17th level.”

stack

2014-05-27, 11:59 AM

Ssalarn

2014-05-27, 12:41 PM

The additional bonus to the vizier feels small compared to what was taken off. I don't know that it matters from a power/balance perspective, but it is a downgrade.

I'm more familiar with the craft path, didn't check seer yet.

The previous abilities all stacked onto Essence invested in associated Veils, so there was this component where you had to actually have a veil shaped there, you had to have Essence invested, you had to have a bonded item, etc. Theoretically you were one sunder attempt away from not only losing your veil (temporarily), but also losing whatever situational bonus was associated with it. The new auras aren't tied to your veils in any way so they can't be taken away from you, and the new binds can't be taken away if someone strips you naked and leaves you in a ditch, so there's a little bit of give and take.

That being said, it is a bit of a downgrade, but it's one that shaves off the fiddly bits that people weren't entirely convinced were helpful anyways. I'm open to making further changes here, whether that be expanding the auras, boosting the scaling, or what have you. I'm letting feedback come in before I make any further changes to the Vizier's core chassis.

Note: I can't access the playtest docs right now, but my brain is telling me that I may have forgotten to include an (Su) descriptor on the auras. Note that if it isn't in the playtest docs, it should be, and I'll get it fixed first thing when I get home this evening before working on wrapping up the Daevic changes (which, believe me, I know are way overdue).

stack

2014-05-27, 12:45 PM

Perhaps letting the bonus scale with invested essence? Not sure really. I don't disagree with the change, but my character will miss the speed boost when flying on his swarm of phantasmal insects.

stack

2014-05-28, 11:34 AM

Since you mentioned wanting to use essence apart from veils, I thought of a prestige class (well two; originally it was one but it kind of split as I thought about it more). PF prestige classes are often a bit of an afterthought, I suppose the ideas could be applied to some classes archetypes.

The basic concept is one class that focuses on channeling essence in a raw, primitive form into one's own body, granting bonuses and using essence burn heavily as a limiting factor. The other would focus on investing essence into a weapon, granting bonuses and abilities similar to how a magus/paladin w weapon bond/etc can enhance their weapons as needed.

(Not full classes, just brainstorm outlines.)
Full BAB
Either good fort or good fort/will
Entry requirements probably just 5 BAB and an essence pool (easily achieved by grabbing a single feat, 1-level dip, or taking an akashic race
5 levels seems long enough. Grants 1 essence/level. Diehard might be a thematic bonus feat to toss in, for use with the capstone.

Depending on how many abilities are written for it you can either grant the abilities in order or from a menu, though the 5th level should probably stay the same. Ideas for abilities would be taking essence burn to grant THP, reroll saves, force opponents to reroll attacks, delay the onset of conditions (no, I'm not blinded this round!). Capstone would be taking essence burn to stay alive when below the death threshold. Probably have to take additional burn each time you take damage after passing the threshold or else make the cost increase each round since otherwise a vizier with a large essence pool could be kind of broken.

Full BAB
Either good fort or good fort/will
Entry requirements probably just 5 BAB and an essence pool (easily achieved by grabbing a single feat, 1-level dip, or taking an akashic race
5 levels seems long enough. Grants 1 essence/level.

Concept here is simple enough; pick abilities off a menu to enhance a bonded weapon using essence. Maneuver bonuses, attack/damage, weapon properties, reduced misfire, and fun ones like making ammo out of essence for archers/gunslinger, maneuver recovery via essence burn for the PoW types, attack rerolls, etc.
Anyway, those are just the brainstorm ideas. I can try to put something more thorough together if it interests you. Feel free to pilfer anything that strikes your fancy. I can especially see immortal warrior abilities working for a paladin or barbarian archetype, essence blade for a gunslinger/fighter/marksman.

Ssalarn

2014-05-28, 04:22 PM

@Stack

Some of those ideas definitely mirror some things I was already looking at. I've been playing around with a prestige class that converts damage into Essence burn that synergizes with some of your Immortal Warrior ideas, so that's cool.

Right now the focus is more on veilweavers for the first book, and we'll start expanding the Essence system into non veil-based abilities more in a theoretical 2nd book.

That being said, it is a pain in the hindquarters trying to write up an entire project while juggling real life and everything else, and the other writer on the project basically is doing fluff and feats only. The first batch of feats and some of the taglines for classes and feats were contributed by my good buddy K. Jered Mayer, but he really doesn't have the time or expertise to help with the heavy lifting, so if we get to a book two, I'm probably going to tap a couple people to be contributors and help flesh out the project, in addition to looking at some cross-company goodness like a supplement Alexander Agunas ( I may have misspelled that) and I are in talks about to combine the Occultist, his Pathfinder Binder update, with the akashic subsystem.
So it's good to hear your guys' ideas and you never know what idea might actually be your stealth job interview. I got a foot in the door with DSP thanks to contributions and insights I gave on the Path of War project, and even just since this project has started there's been one or two people whom I've put in touch with Andreas or other publishers who might be interested in their talents.

PsyBomb

2014-05-28, 10:16 PM

stack

2014-05-29, 07:09 AM

An idea for another path would be direct debuffing, though that may be too witch-like. Maybe a Gish one as well? We have focuses on gear and on allies, so on the environment, enemies, and self make thematic sense. Or split mind and body into two paths.

Ssalarn

2014-05-29, 10:30 AM

Beginning a more thorough read of the Vizier update, and my friend from the playtest who played the Vizier was greatly saddened by the loss of the Hand Bind ability. Being able to give the melee team +3 to attacks for the round was nice. Asks if the third Path is going to be a geomancer-style terrain basis, with differing powers depending on the area you are in.

What if we dropped the movement speed increase from the Seer and replaced it with an insight bonus to attack rolls for all affected allies? That works a little bit more into the battlefield coordinator design of the path, and at later levels he can still share Coward's Boots or another veil to boost their movement.

stack

2014-05-29, 11:16 AM

That would seem to fit with the theme nicely.

Anlashok

2014-05-29, 11:23 AM

Daevic update - We're expanding the Daevic Possession class feature to include some standardized defenses for all Daevic's, and changing the way the Passions work so that they're simpler, more straightforward packets of abilities.

Are the updates posted somewhere else? I just downloaded the daevic again and it was the same document as before.

PsyBomb

2014-05-29, 11:24 AM

What if we dropped the movement speed increase from the Seer and replaced it with an insight bonus to attack rolls for all affected allies? That works a little bit more into the battlefield coordinator design of the path, and at later levels he can still share Coward's Boots or another veil to boost their movement.

Been meaning to ask about that, actually. When does Foresee Conflict come online? Right now the only specified levels on that path are for when you get new Teamwork Feats. Also for Foresee Conflict, how often can the emulated Veil change? Say I have Coward's Boots and and Polar Snowshoes bound, and my Akashic Warrior buddy starts off with the speed boost. Once he gets into melee, though, he doesn't need the speed boost, and wants to swap to Polar Snowshoes for some damage. Can he, and if so what kind of action would it take?

Other than that, what you said is awesome. It has much better synergy with your abilities as battlefield support.

Shinken

2014-05-29, 12:58 PM

The guru's Crack the Shell is scarily effective against other veilshapers. Is this intended?

PsyBomb

2014-05-30, 11:25 AM

Loving the new version of Snakehandler's Gauntlets. Although the DR requirement isn't hard, it isn't common either. Running around at level 4 with what amounts to DR 3/- and 15 quick-recovering temporary HP makes my Guru significantly more dangerous than he appears... And the poison blade ability does evil things to those not immune.

Ssalarn

2014-05-30, 04:05 PM

The guru's Crack the Shell is scarily effective against other veilshapers. Is this intended?

Yeah, we don't really have world-specific fluff released yet, but pretty much all of these pieces have their place in my own little akashic landscape, and basically the scariest thing a veilweaver should ever see is a pissed off Sineater coming his way.

Gurus are kind of the "police" of the akashic builds, much like the most annoying thing a Wizard or Sorcerer can have to deal with is an Abjurer with Improved Counterspell, or a monk built by someone with a high degree of system mastery.

Viziers have bigger, flashier powers, Daevics hit harder and last longer, but the Guru is the guy who takes away your toys.

malonkey1

2014-05-30, 06:06 PM

This has probably been suggested, but I'd quite like to see a Path of War archetype/class/Discipline (probably a prestige class) that offered martial menuvers devoted to manipulating Akashic energy.

PsyBomb

2014-06-01, 03:30 PM

So, to spark conversation...

We know the base stats of the first three races, plus hints of alternate-package guys. We also know the theory behind #4, though not the mechanic . What could the mechanics be for a Half-Daeva, and what could #5 be?

Also in the process of generating ideas for the Sorceror Akashic Bloodline, but a great deal of that has to wait until we start looking at the Akashic Spells.

Shinken

2014-06-02, 07:29 AM

Yeah, we don't really have world-specific fluff released yet, but pretty much all of these pieces have their place in my own little akashic landscape, and basically the scariest thing a veilweaver should ever see is a pissed off Sineater coming his way.

Gurus are kind of the "police" of the akashic builds, much like the most annoying thing a Wizard or Sorcerer can have to deal with is an Abjurer with Improved Counterspell, or a monk built by someone with a high degree of system mastery.

Viziers have bigger, flashier powers, Daevics hit harder and last longer, but the Guru is the guy who takes away your toys.

That sounds pretty cool.
Have you considered making any connection between the genie races (suli, sylph, undine, ifrit, oread) and akasha? I think some kind of alternate racial trait would be very cool. Say, suli that lack a connection to elements, but have a connection to akasha - it could be as simple as giving them untyped (or force?) elemental assault damage and/or 1 essentia.

PsyBomb

2014-06-02, 07:43 AM

Starting to toy around with the Enforcer feat on my Guru. This gets evil quick, even at level 5 I average 21+ subdual per strike (literal minimum is 11 on the character I'm testing this with). This basically means a free-action Shaken status that lasts the entire combat, since with even the one rank I am pretty sure I'll make the Intimidaate eventually.

Shinken

2014-06-02, 07:52 AM

Small nitpick: Desire daevic gets "+1 competence bonus per point of Essence invested in their bond to attack rolls against any foe they have succeeded on a Steal or Feint maneuver against within the last hour", but feint it not really a comnat maneuver, it's a special action in combat (such as withdraw or refocus).

Also, I think Dirty Trick is as thematically appropriate as feint is, maybe it could be included. Don't really like it working within the hour, since it mentions specifically Steal/feint and does not work with Sleight of Hand/Bluff. Maybe it could be expanded to include any kind of deception in the last hour (which would include Bluff and Sleight of Hand) or limited by encounter, which would make steal/feint make a lot more sense.

Also, how does the Improved Feint tree stack with the desire daevic ability (if at all)?

Oh, another thing - it takes forever for a daevic to get melee attack = feint, but they could get it earlier with the Improved Two Weapon feint feat. I imagine that taking it will end up being quite popular, specially since it doesn't even list Two Weapon Feint as a requirement. Maybe the daevic ability could be gained earlier and/or there could be an advantage for those that have taken the Improved Two Weapon feint when they reach that point in their careers?

On a final note, I don't think the mind rape subtext behind suggestion and geas (specially the text for the 20th level ability) fit a neutral good alignment, described as common for desire daevics.

PsyBomb

2014-06-03, 12:52 PM

Shinken

2014-06-03, 01:14 PM

Also, can we expect ways to make veils invisible (even if they are inert while invisible)? They are very conspicuous...

Thealtruistorc

2014-06-03, 10:04 PM

PsyBomb

2014-06-03, 10:28 PM

As an Incarnum fan, I must say I love the vizier. It offers a lot of crafting options as well as shaping and control options and overall has a lot of what I like in a class. I assume these will be compatible with 3.5's veilweavers.

This system is only kinda compatable with 3.5 Incarnum. It is based on a couple of very different assumptions (for example, Chakra Binds do not lock out the slot) along with wildly different basic class roles.

That said, I've already started working up a Totemist home brew to bring it to this variation of the system.

Ssalarn

2014-06-03, 11:21 PM

Just to ask, in order to have a basis for theoretical character creation:

Do you have any plans for Akashic items? Specifically, ports of the Soulbound weapon/armor enchantment line (especially if you make it able to count as your base +1, but I wouldn't blame you for not doing so) and the Incarnum Focus items. This is actually very important for both mid and high-end optimization stress testing, since that one point can save you a feat or put you over a die-break or critical range increment.

There won't be any direct ports of previous Incarnum items, however there are several unique Akashic items in the works.

There's a couple of different weapon and armor enhancements I'm looking at getting out to you guys, I'm just at the fine balancing stage of making sure the enhancements are meaningful without being too strong or just doing something that's already available.

The daeva-spawn have +2 Con, and then a floating +2 that's determine by their Passion affinity (Wrath = STR, Desire = DEX, Dominion = CHA). I'm sure the first thing someone is going to say is "Really? Desire isn't CHA?", and currently I'm looking at that as DEX being the key stat that ties into a lot of the Desire ideas (you expect someone with a Desire daeva influencing their biology to be.... wriggly, one way or another), while Dominion is more force of personality oriented in theme. That being said, the reason the race isn't out is exactly because I'm still looking at other ways to put them together where each offshoot is unique without one being barred from getting something appropriate because someone else already got it.

I'm really sorry for the big break in between updates on this one guys, I'm just trying to get what I owe you and what so many of you have been waiting for finished and out for final review while keeping the other pieces moving, and I've been spending too much time on prepping pieces I can't release until the core stuff is finished. A big part of that is that I don't have as much access to my primary writing tools during the day as I used to, which is putting me seriously behind schedule, and I hate chiming in when I don't have new stuff for you guys, especially the releases for the two big items, the Daevic rewrite and the newly reorganized and (hopefully) better clarified rules. Part of that is the "pre-testing" phase. Normally when I do something I try to let my home group play with it first, then I clean up issues they notice, then I let the local PFS and game store groups get at it, then it gets some developer peer review before going live with you guys.

I.... I may reconsider how I do that, just to get stuff out to you guys a little faster. It's possible that I could be leveraging your expertise a little more efficiently than I have been to date.

Ssalarn

2014-06-03, 11:30 PM

Have you considered making any connection between the genie races (suli, sylph, undine, ifrit, oread) and akasha? ***.

Short answer:
Yes.

Long answer:

All of the core races are getting some materials to give them ready access to the system, and a selection of thematically appropriate races from the ARG and UP are getting some goodies as well. This includes the elemental races, I've got some stuff cooking for variant vishkanya, forgeborn and ophiduan are both on the list for some akashic makeovers, and I'm open to requests for other races that you think should really get some akashic love. I can't make promises about will make it in to the final run other than the ones I've mentioned, but even if it isn't in the initial release, you never know what might show up down the line.

Also, can we expect ways to make veils invisible (even if they are inert while invisible)? They are very conspicuous...

That my friend, is an excellent question that I had not thought of, and which no one else had really brought up before now.

So I'll put it to you guys in the community:

Which of the following would be your preferred method for dealing with "disguising" veils:

Veilweavers have an "active" and "inactive" mode. Veils are only detectable via detect magic or similar means while the veilweaver inactive and cannot be sundered (though can still be affected by dispel or disjunction effects), but their abilities are suppressed until you spend a swift action to activate them. Deactivating them requires another swift action.

Veils are always on, but we provide a feat that allows you to disguise them as normal clothing.

Veils are always on, but we provide a magic item that allows you to disguise them as normal clothing. We potentially have greater versions of this item that also give your veils a nondetection ability, requiring true seeing or a more powerful effect to actually see and identify them.

This has probably been suggested, but I'd quite like to see a Path of War archetype/class/Discipline (probably a prestige class) that offered martial menuvers devoted to manipulating Akashic energy.

We've already got one PoW class archetype available that will be part of the final document, and Jeremy and Andreas have both given the go-ahead for a full akashic discipline with supporting organization.

Chris and I have been chatting about the best way to do the discipline and organization, and currently I don't know whose book that's going to end up in, but I'll give you more info as we start diving into that piece of things.

Shinken

2014-06-04, 04:43 AM

Short answer:
Yes.

Long answer:

All of the core races are getting some materials to give them ready access to the system, and a selection of thematically appropriate races from the ARG and UP are getting some goodies as well. This includes the elemental races, I've got some stuff cooking for variant vishkanya, forgeborn and ophiduan are both on the list for some akashic makeovers, and I'm open to requests for other races that you think should really get some akashic love. I can't make promises about will make it in to the final run other than the ones I've mentioned, but even if it isn't in the initial release, you never know what might show up down the line.
That sounds really cool. Also, I had some questions about the daevic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17562845&postcount=81). Aside from all that I've said before, I'm a bit worried by the daevic fluff. It feels too much like pact magic, which I understand is not really a concern for DSP since it's not one of their products, but I think it could be avoided completely if instead of "daevic" we head "devas". Their investment in a passion is so huge that they become akashic embodiments of that devotion. Also, I'm having a hard time justifying why they are so well trained in combat - maybe that could be addressed as well?

That my friend, is an excellent question that I had not thought of, and which no one else had really brought up before now.

So I'll put it to you guys in the community:

Which of the following would be your preferred method for dealing with "disguising" veils:

Veilweavers have an "active" and "inactive" mode. Veils are only detectable via detect magic or similar means while the veilweaver inactive and cannot be sundered (though can still be affected by dispel or disjunction effects), but their abilities are suppressed until you spend a swift action to activate them. Deactivating them requires another swift action.

Veils are always on, but we provide a feat that allows you to disguise them as normal clothing.

Veils are always on, but we provide a magic item that allows you to disguise them as normal clothing. We potentially have greater versions of this item that also give your veils a nondetection ability, requiring true seeing or a more powerful effect to actually see and identify them.
I like the idea of active/inactive mode.

We've already got one PoW class archetype available that will be part of the final document, and Jeremy and Andreas have both given the go-ahead for a full akashic discipline with supporting organization.
Oh, that's really really cool.

malonkey1

2014-06-04, 07:22 AM

This system is only kinda compatable with 3.5 Incarnum. It is based on a couple of very different assumptions (for example, Chakra Binds do not lock out the slot) along with wildly different basic class roles.

That said, I've already started working up a Totemist home brew to bring it to this variation of the system.

Funny thing, I actually that not too long ago (links are in the signature). I should take a look at the Akashic Mysteries stuff and see if I can make my writeup more compatible.

PsyBomb

2014-06-04, 07:52 AM

Funny thing, I actually that not too long ago (links are in the signature). I should take a look at the Akashic Mysteries stuff and see if I can make my writeup more compatible.

I was doing the same thing, actually, until I found out about Ssalarn writing this one. Maybe we should collaborate some time, but this isn't the place. PM me if you are interested, I got through the base classes, Soulmelds, most of the feats, and a couple PrCs

On topic: I always houseruled that a Soulmeld with nothing invested that has not been used in 3 rounds fades out of sight (but are still detectable as being there to Detect Magic and the like). Active/Passive modes might work better, but I'll need to playtest it a bit.

Ssalarn

2014-06-04, 10:19 AM

On topic: I always houseruled that a Soulmeld with nothing invested that has not been used in 3 rounds fades out of sight (but are still detectable as being there to Detect Magic and the like). Active/Passive modes might work better, but I'll need to playtest it a bit.

I kind of like the idea of a veilweaver being able to empty his veils of Essence and them fading into invisibility or near invisibility. That might be the best way to go, and it reinforces this idea of veils becoming more solid and tangible as more and more energy is poured into them.

That sounds really cool. Also, I had some questions about the daevic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17562845&postcount=81). Aside from all that I've said before, I'm a bit worried by the daevic fluff. It feels too much like pact magic, which I understand is not really a concern for DSP since it's not one of their products, but I think it could be avoided completely if instead of "daevic" we head "devas". Their investment in a passion is so huge that they become akashic embodiments of that devotion. Also, I'm having a hard time justifying why they are so well trained in combat - maybe that could be addressed as well?

You realize that every time someone chimes in with a well reasoned bit of input on this it puts me another two days behind on actually getting an updated Daevic out, right?

In all seriousness though, this is something that I was already working on a bit, particularly because DSP is talking with Radiance House about doing a cross-product release for Occultist/veilweaver goodies. What I'm working on now is tweaking things a bit so that the Daevic's fluff changes the emphasis of his bond to be of a primarily physical nature; essentially he's now a host for a nascent daeva who lacks enough strength to actually maintain a physical form, so it latches on to the Daevic, feeding on his life energy, or Essence. The Passion Veils then, are actually the daeva's physical body lent form and substance by the Daevic.
The full BAB is reflective of the fact that the daeva are creatures of action, and they drive their hosts to challenge themselves so that they'll grow stronger and create a deeper pool of life energy for the daeva to feed on.

Prime32

2014-06-04, 11:31 AM

Which of the following would be your preferred method for dealing with "disguising" veils:

Veilweavers have an "active" and "inactive" mode. Veils are only detectable via detect magic or similar means while the veilweaver inactive and cannot be sundered (though can still be affected by dispel or disjunction effects), but their abilities are suppressed until you spend a swift action to activate them. Deactivating them requires another swift action.

Veils are always on, but we provide a feat that allows you to disguise them as normal clothing.

Veils are always on, but we provide a magic item that allows you to disguise them as normal clothing. We potentially have greater versions of this item that also give your veils a nondetection ability, requiring true seeing or a more powerful effect to actually see and identify them.Whatever way it works, I'd prefer the nondetection function to be built in from the start. How important "disguised as normal clothing" is depends on the setting and how the PC fluffs his veils in the first place.

Aside from all that I've said before, I'm a bit worried by the daevic fluff. It feels too much like pact magic, which I understand is not really a concern for DSP since it's not one of their products, but I think it could be avoided completely if instead of "daevic" we head "devas".PF already has angels named astral/monadic/movanic devas, as well as divs which are based on devas...

Shinken

2014-06-05, 04:30 AM

PF already has angels named astral/monadic/movanic devas, as well as divs which are based on devas...
That's going to be a problem with the daevic fluff anyway, then.

You realize that every time someone chimes in with a well reasoned bit of input on this it puts me another two days behind on actually getting an updated Daevic out, right?
:smallredface:

In all seriousness though, this is something that I was already working on a bit, particularly because DSP is talking with Radiance House about doing a cross-product release for Occultist/veilweaver goodies. What I'm working on now is tweaking things a bit so that the Daevic's fluff changes the emphasis of his bond to be of a primarily physical nature; essentially he's now a host for a nascent daeva who lacks enough strength to actually maintain a physical form, so it latches on to the Daevic, feeding on his life energy, or Essence. The Passion Veils then, are actually the daeva's physical body lent form and substance by the Daevic.
The full BAB is reflective of the fact that the daeva are creatures of action, and they drive their hosts to challenge themselves so that they'll grow stronger and create a deeper pool of life energy for the daeva to feed on.
Ah, that sounds cool. The life force thing for bab works specially well for PF, where BAB and HD are tied to each other.

PsyBomb

2014-06-05, 12:06 PM

About the Daeva-spawn...

I like the concept of variable bonuses, but what is the stat penalty on them? As it stands, you can get a Str/Con bonus on one guy. It is very unusual to see double-Physical or double-Mental.

PsyBomb

2014-06-07, 07:58 PM

malonkey1

2014-06-08, 12:04 AM

Ssalarn

2014-06-09, 11:12 AM

It's been long enough that I think the double-post is ok.

My live group more or less disbanded for the summer. I'm trying to get more testing done, but can't find people. If anyone is willing to DM (PbP here or Roll20) or else play dedicated Akashic characters, I'd be all kinds of down for it. Failing that, my contributions from here on out are going to be more math, proofreading, theory, and short simulations rather than actual game data.

I may have one or two people who'd be interested in as well. There's a couple local players who weren't able to get seats at one of the playtest groups, I'll see if they'd be interested in a PBP.

So, taking in to account all of the feedback on the Daevic and a few points Shinken brought up, I think we've finally got a fully fleshed working version of the new Daevic, which I'm going to try and get out tonight along with the shivaat, the daeva spawn race. I should note, shivaat is supposed to be an entirely made up name with a nod to Shiva, from whom a lot of the race's inspiration was drawn. I did a little research and I don't think that there's any other meaning to that word, but if someone is aware of it having meaning beyond what we're giving it, let me know. The only problem with dipping into cultures that aren't yours is the fact that you don't know what you don't know.

stack

2014-06-09, 12:23 PM

I'd be up for a test game.

Jigawatts

2014-06-09, 05:28 PM

Shivaat, are they going to be a multi-armed race? I played a Codru-Ji in a Star Wars campaign several years ago and really enjoyed it (dual-wielding heavy blaster rifles was a lot of fun). Unfortunately D&D/PF has never had a 4 armed PC race (that I can think of), maybe you can remedy that Ssalarn.

PsyBomb

2014-06-09, 05:33 PM

Shivaat, are they going to be a 4 armed race? I played a Codru-Ji in a Star Wars campaign several years ago and really enjoyed it (dual-wielding heavy blaster rifles was a lot of fun). Unfortunately D&D/PF has never had a 4 armed PC race, maybe you can remedy that Ssalarn.

Thri-Kreen immediately jump to mind, as does another species of Snakefolk (can't remember the name, I think it was some kind of demon playable through Monster PC rules). Having spare arms is a Really Big Dealtm, powerful enough that Alchemists spend a CHAIN of ability selections on it.

Ssalarn

2014-06-09, 09:54 PM

The basic idea is that is that the Shivaat are actually infused with akasha and can force temporary mutations, controlling their flesh like a veil for things like growing an extra pair of arms or even an additional face. They won't really support dual-wielding greatswords, but you could two-hand a longsword or bastard sword while wielding a shield and drawing a potion, at least for a number of rounds per day equal to your Essence pool.

Working on trying to finish the formatting on the Daevic changes right now. I need to learn how to use the offline work mode on google docs because for some reason everything goes to hell whenever I try to import any other type of document over.

stack

2014-06-10, 09:03 AM

Why was the crafting time reduction removed from the crafter vizier? I rather liked that feature. It makes crafting while adventuring much more viable, though high cost items still require downtime.

Ssalarn

2014-06-10, 09:13 AM

Why was the crafting time reduction removed from the crafter vizier? I rather liked that feature. It makes crafting while adventuring much more viable, though high cost items still require downtime.

It was brought to my attention that the reduction in cost also reduced the crafting time, as did, potentially, the boosted skill check, effectively allowing the Vizier to triple dip for reduced craft times.

Psyren

2014-06-10, 09:30 AM

Been a while since my last round of feedback, I'll see if I can fire up the current versions and give my thoughts again.

In all seriousness though, this is something that I was already working on a bit, particularly because DSP is talking with Radiance House about doing a cross-product release for Occultist/veilweaver goodies.

SHUT UP AND TAKE MY MONEY!!!

stack

2014-06-10, 09:55 AM

Is there a cost reduction other than at 17? Because losing the time reduction hurts for a long time before then. Cutting the time in half by boosting the dc is a bigger deal. Still, I'm not sure how problematic it is, a 40,000 gp item would still take 12 days for a level 16 vizier, a very long time when adventuring at the 'teleport everywhere' stage of the game. A 20,000 gp would only take 2 days, or 8 while adventuring, not exactly inconsequential.

Ssalarn

2014-06-11, 01:16 AM

PsyBomb

2014-06-11, 06:30 AM

The new Daevic is up and available through the link in the OP, though I wasn't able to fix a major error with the Desire passion so that has been temporarily removed from the document. For some reason this document has just been a royal pain in the butt to get edited and formatted, so if you see any major errors in the formatting, layout, etc. please let me know so I can get them corrected. Shivaat will be another day or two while I address some balance issues that were pointed out with the abilities (as was noted in this thread not too long ago, extra limbs can be... difficult to balance properly).

Ok, now. Let's see the new update...

I think I tentatively like this system, and the fluff of it. Just gotta make sure a couple of things are clarified.

Are you able to individually invest in Passion veils? If so, does it stack with the Passion essence? If both of these are true, can it stack past the normal limit (IE upwards of 7 in passion plus 4 in veil for 11 invested?)

For the every-odd-level bonuses, do they all stack with themselves? AC and HP clearly do, but can I pick the same skill for a bonus multiple times?

Dominion:
-3rd level bonus is a bit of an odd one, eventually your bonuses to Shield Bash multiple times will be higher than your main-hand weapon for the second and third strikes.
-Benevolence bonus: I like it better than the very limited version we had before, but busting a Standard action every 3-4 rounds is going to hurt.
-Tyranny bonus: Now THAT is a class-defining feature! I like it, will have to do some math and theory to see if it is breakable (it feels like there might be, I have a friend who plays a Dread who may be able to enlighten me)

Wrath:
-3rd level bonus is good, cleanly replicates what we had before.
-Justice and Vengeance bonuses: perfect intention... just gotta clean up the wording in order to make them usable on Overrun. Remove the phrase "against the target of the bull rush" from Vengeance, and add "or Overrun" to Justice. This way, they both function on any AoO granted by the level-3 class feature.

Chakra Binds: Rules text has it starting at 4th level and never gaining Feet. Chart has Feet at 2nd level.

Blood Bind: Random idea, perhaps make this damage count as Bleed damage?

I was sad to lose the unique capstones per-Passion. They were all really cool and flavorful.

That's all for now on initial read. Can't wait to see how Desire pans out.

Ssalarn

2014-06-11, 10:30 AM

Gonna try and bust through these real quick-

I'm glad you're onboard with the new layout. It ended being kind of a middle ground between the old system and my initial ideas to revamp it. I still feel like there's a few giant blocks of text that probably need to be cleaned up or trimmed down, just working on doing that without accidentally trimming important information. I may break up the veilweaving and possession information into two completely separate class features as part of that clean up and organization.

No, new goal is that you cannot invest individually in the passion veils. Since they're the actual body of the daeva and you're getting a big bost as a result, he's in charge of how that all works. I'll try and tighten up and clarify the wording to make that clear.

Yes, the possession bonuses should stack with themselves, so you could put every one of your Cha skill bonuses into Bluff, for example. I'll add more specific verbage to make that clear.

I expanded the passion vel lists a little bit as well, adding daevic aspect like I've been saying I was going to and bringing a couple extra thematically appropriate veils into each list.

The Dominion 3rd level benefit was basically designed to make you really, really good with a shield, regardless of what you're wielding in the other hand. It should kind of shift the focus so that your shield bash is always your most reliable attack. I'm thinking I may add a clause in there so that the penalty reduction applies to either your shield or to fighting defensively to open up a few more options for combat style and weapon preference.

Benevolence is now a lot more powerful and versatile, and my hope is that with the door opened fo access to things like Coordinate Charge, the benefits will outweigh the action economy cost. Between respecting the Paizo core material and the general power of the Daevic in general, I just couldn't really see dropping the action economy down on this one. With Horsemaster's Greaves as a passion veil, anything less than a standard action is no cost at all in a lot of situations.

Chakra Binds- I'm going to go beat my head on a desk now. I don't know how the outdated entry keeps creeping back into the main doc. I'll get it fixed....

Blood Bind - That, is an interesting thought. Let me ruminate on it a bit.

I'm willing to reconsider the passion capstones. I get that Apotheosis is fairly... well, boring. The capstones may not be quite as comprehensive as they were previously, but maybe I'll add some tags for each passion to the Apotheosis ability (kind of like gaining the first power in your new divine portfolio), so that you get ascension plus a relevant ability.

PsyBomb

2014-06-11, 12:24 PM

Gonna try and bust through these real quick-
<snip>

Glad I could help. Couple more things, actually:

Thanks for expanding the Passion veil list, having Daevic Essence on all of them really helps.

In the Feats section:

Akashic Augmentation: meant to ask, but does this only affect inherent Augmentations or also Metapsionics?

Akasha-Infused Spells- it is unclear why you have to choose a school of magic, since at no point in the text of the feat does it force you to choose spells from that school.

Enhanced Veil Capacity: We talked about it briefly, but how does this interact with invest-able class or racial features or feats that aren't explicitly Veils or Feats?

Discussed before, but possible Akashic feat to boost Piranha Strike (or add as a rider onto Chakra Power, making the prereqs 13 Con plus either Power Attack or Piranha Strike)

Excellent addition to Essence Focus... and time to have fun with applying two Metapsionic abilities to the same feat at once.

Essence of the Immortal: As long as you're a dedicated Akashic, this is now strictly better than Toughness. I have no problem with this, personally, since it does require strong dedication to Akasha to keep up.

Life Bond: 17 Con requirement hurts, but makes some sense if you do require both it and the veilweaver level. Not sure if this is the intent, from prior design philosophy conversation.

Veil-Woven Channel: Updated, this is really fun. Makes the healbot clerics have something else they contribute.

View Energy: The first sentence is unneeded, the feat does not lock Essence.

Ssalarn

2014-06-11, 12:58 PM

Akasha-Infused Spells- it is unclear why you have to choose a school of magic, since at no point in the text of the feat does it force you to choose spells from that school.

The corrected version of this feat should be available in the Vizier document. I'll get it carried over to the Daevic document this evening.

Enhanced Veil Capacity: We talked about it briefly, but how does this interact with invest-able class or racial features or feats that aren't explicitly Veils or Feats?

Currently it doesn't interact with anything other than veils, but I'll get this updated on all docs to a more generic "Enhanced Capacity" feat.

Life Bond: 17 Con requirement hurts, but makes some sense if you do require both it and the veilweaver level. Not sure if this is the intent, from prior design philosophy conversation

Should be an either veilweaver level or Con requirement, not both. I'll make sure that's up to date in all documents.

View Energy: The first sentence is unneeded, the feat does not lock Essence.

I'll remove that, it's a relic from a time when more of the feats locked in your Essence investment.

Veil-Woven Channel: Updated, this is really fun. Makes the healbot clerics have something else they contribute

Thank you! Sometimes it's worth going back to something and saying "Yeah, it works, but couldn't it be more fun?"

Excellent addition to Essence Focus... and time to have fun with applying two Metapsionic abilities to the same feat at once.
You can thank Andreas for this one, it was his idea :)
Note that we might still need to do a little clean up on the verbage so that instead of "Whenever Essence is invested in this feat you may activate two abilities requiring you to spend your psionic focus" it's more like "During a round in which you invest Essence into this feat, you may activate two abilities requiring you to spend your psionic focus". We're definitely going to keep the dual activation thing, we're just trying to avoid creating god-psions who take an akashic race and become instant metapsionics masters.

Discussed before, but possible Akashic feat to boost Piranha Strike (or add as a rider onto Chakra Power, making the prereqs 13 Con plus either Power Attack or Piranha Strike)

So, I've got to tell you, I felt really dumb the other night. I had somehow completely overlooked the fact that Piranha Strike is an UP feat; the last time we talked about it I thought you were referring to the feat of the same name from the "Secrets of Sarlona" (I think? the one that also had that crappy Monkey Reach feat) splatbook. I'll add an "or Piranha Strike" to this one.

PsyBomb

2014-06-11, 02:19 PM

To be clear, the feat "Piranha Strike" is originally from "Pathfinder Companion: Sargava, the Lost Colony". Not sure about its appearance in UP, that's not what is said on the SRD. It is, however, referenced in the Soulknife Archetype Nimble Blade. It's the one that acts like Power Attack for Light weapons.

Psyren

2014-06-11, 03:06 PM

PsyBomb

2014-06-11, 06:29 PM

Sargava, like all the other PF Companions, is open content (the mechanics anyway) and thus its feats are fair game for use by DSP in their own products despite it not being part of the "core product line."

Awesome. Gives a much bigger playground to play in. This particular case was on behalf of the player I was working on Guru optimization with (I'm working the details solo now). He noticed that Sineaters at the very least would LOVE having Piranha strike, and wanted to extend Chakra Power to it to keep it in theme. Glad it's working out.

Psyren

2014-06-11, 06:33 PM

The reverse is true too - Paizo themselves lifted mechanics from Psionics Unleashed for one of their official adventure paths (Dragon's Demand.)

Open gaming is the gift that keeps on giving.

Anlashok

2014-06-11, 09:11 PM

I'm conflicted on the new daevic. On the one hand the slimmed down passion trees make the class feel more like a class rather than three smaller classes that coincidentally share the same chassis and it gets rid of some (not all, but some) of the feelings of being pigeonholed in how you could play with each passion

On the other hand the class feels a bit.. empty now. The cool SLAs and variant AoOs and the amazingly fun passion capstones are just replaced with... more +1s. Leveling up and getting a +1 to saves or +1 to natural armor or +1 to a single skill check or -1 to a penalty (etc) just doesn't feel like a very inspiring progression.

Veils and chakras do help here a bit, but the vizier and guru can get by with veils AND pages upon pages of class features. Honestly the first time I read the new daevic's PDF I actually thought that I had skipped over something because of how short the class feature section was.

I get that Apotheosis is fairly... well, boring.
So the level 20 daevic has a body "utterly infused with Akashic energy" to the point where he doesn't even need to sleep to reshape his veils.

What if you expanded upon how easy it is for the max level daevic to manipulate Akashic energy? What if, say, X times per Y interval the Daevic could reassign his essence as a free action and/or reshape veils as a free or swift or standard action?

Edit: Maybe it's just me but I think you should find a way to give the Sobek full movement speed. Whether or not it's for balance or fluff I know it's not a huge deal objectively, but slow moving characters kinda make my skin crawl for whatever reason and the Sobek are my favorite race otherwise :(

Prime32

2014-06-11, 09:22 PM

The reverse is true too - Paizo themselves lifted mechanics from Psionics Unleashed for one of their official adventure paths (Dragon's Demand.)As a side note, they also did this (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/dream-eater-cr-2). It even has the PP cap rule.

PsyBomb

2014-06-12, 08:05 PM

Any chance we can see the Desire ability set in-thread, while you wrestle with formatting?

stack

2014-06-12, 10:00 PM

Wrath Rider - Cavalier ArchetypeWrath Wyrm Mount
Instead of a normal mount, the wrath rider bonds with the physical manifestation of a bestial daeva, a wrath wyrm. The wyrm is appropriately sized for its rider. If slain, the wyrm can be re-summoned after eight hours of rest with a one hour ritual, returning at half its maximum hit points. The Wrath Wyrm has the outsider type and the akashic subtype gaining BAB equal to HD and D10 HD, as well as being target-able by effects such as banish and dismissal. A banished or dismissed Wyrm can be re-summoned with an hour long ritual. The wyrm can take [Akashic] feats that it qualifies for in addition to the feats normally available to animal companions. Otherwise it follows the normal animal companion progression and is treated as a cavalier's mount for all purposes and affects. This ability modifies the mount class feature.

Starting Statistics

Size Medium; Speed 40 ft., swim 20 ft.; AC +1 natural armor; Attack bite (1d4); Ability Scores Str 13, Dex 17, Con 13, Int 2, Wis 10, Cha 15; Special Qualities darkvision.

7th-Level Advancement

AC +2 natural armor; Attack bite (1d6), tailslap (1d4); Ability Scores Str +4, Con +2; Special Attacks: pounce.

Wrath Wyrm - Medium

Starting Statistics

Size Large; Speed 30 ft.; AC +2 natural armor; Attack bite (1d6); Ability Scores Str 16, Dex 13, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 10, Cha 12; Special Qualities darkvision.

7th-Level Advancement

AC +2 natural armor; Attack bite (1d8), tailslap (1d6) Ability Scores Str +4, Con +2; Special Attacks: pounce

Possession (Su)
As a full round action, the wrath rider can merge with his mount, allowing the spirit of wrath to overtake him. The cavalier gains the benefits of any veils shaped by the wrath wyrm, including the benefits of any binds and may invest essence as normal for a creature with shaped veils. If the wrath rider has veils from another source shaped to the same location, he must choose one to become dormant and inaccessible. The merger can be ended as a full-round action and ends automatically if the cavalier falls unconscious, dies, or enters the area of an anit-magic field. While merged, the raging passions of the wyrm cause great distraction, forcing a -2 penalty on will saves with an additional -2 penalty on saves verses effects with the [emotion] descriptor. This ability replaces the cavalier's order. While merged, the Wrath Wyrm ceases to be a separate creature and cannot be targeted or affected.

Daeva's Body
At level one, the wrath wyrm can shape one veil per day from the wrath passion list. This increases to two veils at level 8, and three at level 14. The wyrm gains an essence pool of one third its HD. The cavalier can use a swift action to direct the wyrm to invest essence, which requires the wyrm's swift action as usual. This ability replaces tactician, the order ability gained level 8, and Greater Banner.

Binds
The Wrath Wyrm can bind veils to its feet chakra at level 2. At level 5 it can bind to its hand chakra, using its forelimbs in place of hands. At level 9 it can bind to the shoulder chakra and the head chakra at level 15. This replaces the order ability gained at level 2, banner, greater tactician, and the order ability gained at level 15.

edit - cleaned a few things up and added binds. Now you have a cavalier that can ride a mini-dragon, granting flight (eventually with the shoulder bind) and a range of combat abilities that doesn't leave the a character nerfed when indoors or some other location that a mount is inconvenient.

Ssalarn

2014-06-12, 11:43 PM

I'm conflicted on the new daevic. On the one hand the slimmed down passion trees make the class feel more like a class rather than three smaller classes that coincidentally share the same chassis and it gets rid of some (not all, but some) of the feelings of being pigeonholed in how you could play with each passion

On the other hand the class feels a bit.. empty now. The cool SLAs and variant AoOs and the amazingly fun passion capstones are just replaced with... more +1s. Leveling up and getting a +1 to saves or +1 to natural armor or +1 to a single skill check or -1 to a penalty (etc) just doesn't feel like a very inspiring progression.

Missing the capstones in particular has been a very common complaint, so I'll be reintroducing those in some form or another to the Passions (or possibly the Possession class feature, which I'm looking at separating from the veilweaving class feature).

The speed reduction is probably going to stay on the core sobek, but I'm looking at a packet of alternate racial traits for the sobek that will include an option to trade out the slow speed and another feature for something new and different, per the earlier conversation in this thread regarding using alternate racial traits to kind of "sneak in" a few additional races.

stack

2014-06-18, 07:26 PM

Have you come to a conclusion about handcannons and enhancement? (Some of us had expressed concern that there was no way to ever overcome DR with them and suggested that the hit/damage bonus from essence be counted as enhancement.)

Ssalarn

2014-06-19, 10:54 AM

Any chance we can see the Desire ability set in-thread, while you wrestle with formatting?

Sorry I both
a) Overlooked this request
and
b) haven't had a chance to sit down and get the update posted yet.

One way or another I'll try and make sure you have access to the Desire Passion as soon as I get to a computer that I can access my google docs from.

Have you come to a conclusion about handcannons and enhancement? (Some of us had expressed concern that there was no way to ever overcome DR with them and suggested that the hit/damage bonus from essence be counted as enhancement.)

There's some magic items coming out that are going to be specifically for supporting Veils, and I think we're going to tie this in to the same items that are intended to help natural attacks deal with DR as well.

PsyBomb

2014-06-22, 01:00 PM

Sorry I both
a) Overlooked this request
and
b) haven't had a chance to sit down and get the update posted yet.

One way or another I'll try and make sure you have access to the Desire Passion as soon as I get to a computer that I can access my google docs from.

There's some magic items coming out that are going to be specifically for supporting Veils, and I think we're going to tie this in to the same items that are intended to help natural attacks deal with DR as well.

Thanks for these.

I'm starting to work up guides for the system and classes (currently 4 planned, one for each class and one for Archetypes), which I intend to post as the PDFs are released. I'm assuming Vizier will be first out the gate, but with the way things are iterating it looks like it might be Guru. Which is going to be first? That way, I know which to focus on for now.

Ssalarn

2014-06-22, 05:39 PM

Thanks for these.

I'm starting to work up guides for the system and classes (currently 4 planned, one for each class and one for Archetypes), which I intend to post as the PDFs are released. I'm assuming Vizier will be first out the gate, but with the way things are iterating it looks like it might be Guru. Which is going to be first? That way, I know which to focus on for now.

Vizier will still be the first release, then Guru, then Daevic.

stack

2014-06-29, 01:30 PM

Been quiet around here. Any playtest reports or the re-worked classes? It still reads to me that an evil bleed-focused daevic going for max natural attacks would be the most natural damage dealing build, but I suppose at higher levels bleed immunity is an issue.

PsyBomb

2014-06-30, 02:26 PM

I'm working on putting initial guides together, so that I can show Ssalarn before the PDFs publish for his input. Away from my computer at the moment, so I'm just doing notes and looking up options.

Ssalarn

2014-06-30, 06:26 PM

Sorry about the long comm blackout, my puppy literally ate my homework (or at least the power cord to my home computer). I've got PaizoCon going on this weekend, so as much as I'd love to tell you that I'm ready to make up for lost time now that I've got a new computer, the reality is that Monday evening will probably be the earliest I get an update out.
Expect things to start moving ver quickly after that though as we want to start getting things out for the late July release schedule.

Psybomb - Looking forward to your data. Thanks for all the help you've provided so far.

Stack - Have you seen that the bleed effects have been brought down a little and the single target strikes improved substantially for the Wrath Daevic? Also, I'll be following up with you on a few of the other items you and I have talked about shortly.

Everyone else - Sorry again for the delays! This is one of the harder projects for me to work on because of its size and scope, so if you've been following the other projects I've been working on like the Battlelord for Amora Games and the Feats of Bravery, it's not that this project is getting left at the wayside, it's just that I can work those smaller projects in Word and transfer over, whereas Akashic Mysteries I pretty much have to have Google Docs access for, which limits when and where I can get things done. This certainly isn't going to be left at the wayside, and the delays are almost over. Thanks for sticking with me.

PsyBomb

2014-07-06, 11:39 AM

Alright, here are some of the things I'm running into making the Vizier Guide.

1) You mentioned a third Path for them. Any hints as to what it will be?
2) Speaking of Paths... on Path of the Seer, at what level does Foresee Conflict come online? I do not see one specified, but the wording implies that it isn't online from the beginning

More will be edited it as I find them.

3) Riven Darts: Phrasing makes it unclear if invested Essence increases damage by a die or a die TYPE. if I have 1 essence invested, is each dart dealing 2d4 or 1d6? The former is preferable... but might get out of hand when you can have upwards of 8 Essence invested (bound for 8 touch attacks as a standard action, each dealing 9d4 force damage). Then again, averaging 150-180 damage per standard action is competing with 9ths at that point, so no biggie.
4) Another from Foresee Conflict: How and how often can the beneficiary choose a different Veil to benefit from? No action or timeframe is specified.
5) Do the Eyes of the Hawkguard extend the range of non-incremented ranged weapons? For example, the Hand Cannons veil.
6) Spiked Pauldrons do not have a damage type specified. Assumed Physical Piercing, but should be explicit.
7) You said here that you could make natural-weapon touch-attack strings with Storm Gauntlets, but would the Wrist bind apply to natural attacks or just manufactured?
8) Typo in the Belt effect of Horselord's Greaves, says "when bound to Feet"

stack

2014-07-06, 01:18 PM

Don't get me wrong, I think the options for wrath/justice are great. It just seems that for that combo you will ALWAYS be using armbands of the armory of the conqueror first and foremost, then filling in with irked elephant, daevic aspect, and either gorget of the worm or a natural attack bind. Unless you are evil, since bloody shroud would work fine. I'm not saying that justice won't do enough damage, I expect it will do just fine in that regard, it just seems that since the damage bonuses from both bloody conflict and daevic aspect are per hit you reap the greatest benefit by landing as many attacks as possible. I haven't done the math though, so I can not say that the scaling is off, just observing that natural attack builds benefit the most from damage/hit boosts.

Any build that focuses on natural attacks and bonus damage benefits greatly from a aegis/aberrant dip, but that is really more of a problem with that archetype than the other classes that benefit from it. Though with the viscous property you could get in trouble pretty quick too.

Breastplate of bloody conflict - if it wasn't a passion veil, would you ever invest essence into it? DR that only resists bludgeoning? The other benefits don't scale. Its a great veil, risky but potentially extremely deadly on a natural attack build, but I how often do you fight enemies that carry only a warhammer or and earthbreaker?

PsyBomb

2014-07-08, 09:45 PM

The guide is complete through the Head chakra. Just have the rest of them to go, then feat choices and build stubs. It's odd just how highly rated many of the core class abilities are, and that's a VERY good thing. Basically everything you get on the class chassis other than your BAB and HD are 4-5 stars when taken objectively, but the class as a whole lands in the T3 range in testing. Thus far, the only things I've rated in the 1-2 star range are the Horns of the Minotaur (save it for the Daevics, you don't want ot be in Melee), the Hands of the Bard (starts mediocre and drops off FAST unless you have access to more Patterns... and it's mind-affecting), and the Polar Snowshoes (nice idea, but thing is, it harms people on the end of THEIR turn, affects allies/mounts, allows Fort for half, and is the relatively easy-to-resist Cold. The damage isn’t great for the level to begin with, either).

Current build stubs are looking like an Artificer-ish blaster and a Ranged Support focusing on the Hand Cannons and sharing Veils. I'll probably compose a third one when you drop that third Path on us. Digging up more typos and omissions as I go as well, putting them up when they pop up.

9) Waistband of the Wealthy in the Veil description says that it's a Daevic veil... doesn't include Viziers.
10) Stormlord Gauntlets aren't listed in the summary under Wrists, despite having a bind there.

Ssalarn

2014-07-09, 12:16 AM

PsyBomb

2014-07-09, 06:27 AM

And here we go, the much delayed but finally available... UPDATE!!!

Changelog:

Riven Darts clarified to add 1d4 extra damage per Essence (ambiguity in wording removed). Bind now limited so that a single opponent may no longer be the target of more than two darts simultaneously (16d4 force damage to 4 targets at the highest levels is fine; 64d4 force damage to a single target is something I really had to concede was just too damn much, particularly for an at will ability consuming a relatively small amount of your resources).

Waistband of the Wealthy updated to reflect both Daevic and Vizier as valid users

Storm Gauntlets added to Wrist summary and clarified to work with natural attacks.

Typo corrected in Horselord's Greaves and level access nomenclature added for Belt bind.

General clean up to Path of the Seer, including level specification for Foresee Conflict and a narrowing of the granted veil ability to Feet or Hands veils only.

Path of the Ruler added to the Vizier.

Give this one a final lookover guys, it's headed to Jeremy Friday with an anticipated .pdf release of late this month. I'll have a Daevic update out shortly.

Ok, then. Let's get started, and unfortunately this post will express a bit more disappointment than posts prior.

Riven Darts change: Is it possible to add language to the Bind effect allowing you to target one guy with everything on a full-round action? I understand forging a scatter as a Standard, but like I said a couple of posts back 150-180 damage is on the low side when we're talking about level 19.

I was disappointed with the Foresee Conflict clarification. At this point, you might as well delete the Veil-sharing part of it, because stuff you are able to do at level 1 with no effort is not going to be worth even bothering to track at level 17.

Path of the ruler, I was also rather disappointed with. The ability is severely lackluster and underpowered, affecting potentially vulnerable allies as well. Maybe make it a buff/debuff aura for starters, increasing allied saves and sense motive while maintaining the effect on the enemy? Makes it more of a "Ruler" and less of a "Tyrant". Level 17 becomes usable on any Will save instead of just failed ones (to allow it to potentially save an ally), and usable 1/turn as a free action (because Immediate costs you your ability to reallocate for the turn, and this is level 17). Level 5 could change since you no longer need to exclude allies, perhaps to allow you to use Int on social skills or to give a (VERY) minor leadership-esque Cohort (maybe force it into NPC classes?). As it stands, the Path of the Ruler would never be taken over Artificer or Seer.

Working on a final proof for typos and such, but those were the big mechanical issues on first read. Not going to be able to do more than some sims between now and Friday.

Ssalarn

2014-07-09, 08:35 AM

Ok, then. Let's get started, and unfortunately this post will express a bit more disappointment than posts prior.

Riven Darts change: Is it possible to add language to the Bind effect allowing you to target one guy with everything on a full-round action? I understand forging a scatter as a Standard, but like I said a couple of posts back 150-180 damage is on the low side when we're talking about level 19.

I was disappointed with the Foresee Conflict clarification. At this point, you might as well delete the Veil-sharing part of it, because stuff you are able to do at level 1 with no effort is not going to be worth even bothering to track at level 17.

Path of the ruler, I was also rather disappointed with. The ability is severely lackluster and underpowered, affecting potentially vulnerable allies as well. Maybe make it a buff/debuff aura for starters, increasing allied saves and sense motive while maintaining the effect on the enemy? Makes it more of a "Ruler" and less of a "Tyrant". Level 17 becomes usable on any Will save instead of just failed ones (to allow it to potentially save an ally), and usable 1/turn as a free action (because Immediate costs you your ability to reallocate for the turn, and this is level 17). Level 5 could change since you no longer need to exclude allies, perhaps to allow you to use Int on social skills or to give a (VERY) minor leadership-esque Cohort (maybe force it into NPC classes?). As it stands, the Path of the Ruler would never be taken over Artificer or Seer.

Working on a final proof for typos and such, but those were the big mechanical issues on first read. Not going to be able to do more than some sims between now and Friday.

I'll look into possible adjustments for both Seer and Ruler. Ruler actually went through a couple rounds of nerfs following local playtesting due to its synergy with other powerful effects, I'll see if we can't shore it up a bit without recreating the issues seen previously; the biggest one was a Vizier whose primary goodies were Cuirass of Confidence, Vestments of the Maharaja, and Hands of the Bard with his Telepath, Illusionist, and Bard party members who managed to run through level 5, 10, 12, and 15 playtests with only 2 actual encounters they couldn't talk, charm, or coerce there way through. It was actually hilarious to watch, but I got frowny faces from pretty much every conservative player in the room.

Seer might see a little chop up and reorganization so that the veil sharing is separated from the ability to retrain his feats and comes online much earlier.

PsyBomb

2014-07-09, 09:01 AM

I'll look into possible adjustments for both Seer and Ruler. Ruler actually went through a couple rounds of nerfs following local playtesting due to its synergy with other powerful effects, I'll see if we can't shore it up a bit without recreating the issues seen previously; the biggest one was a Vizier whose primary goodies were Cuirass of Confidence, Vestments of the Maharaja, and Hands of the Bard with his Telepath, Illusionist, and Bard party members who managed to run through level 5, 10, 12, and 15 playtests with only 2 actual encounters they couldn't talk, charm, or coerce there way through. It was actually hilarious to watch, but I got frowny faces from pretty much every conservative player in the room.

Seer might see a little chop up and reorganization so that the veil sharing is separated from the ability to retrain his feats and comes online much earlier.

Thanks for the quick feedback. I see the point on the Will-stacked party, but to be honest that group would have done the same exact thing no matter WHAT the Vizier had been playing. If that's the playstyle the group wants, more power to them as long as they have fun, but that would be like judging a Fighter as being OP while in an anti magic field. Unless all of their victims were missing saves by 1-2 points the Vizier is wholly unneeded to achieve the end result, and the group would likely have been better served by a Ninja or Rogue... or a Seer focused on Social.

Thanks for taking another look at the Seer, by the way.

Ssalarn

2014-07-09, 09:09 AM

Yeah, during the first go through the penalties were steeper and the forced reroll came online earlier. -5 to Will saves was making a big difference, and is why Ruler got pared down. We'll try to hit that middle ground.

**EDIT**

Also, for Seer, I'm going to look at bringing the veil sharing ability online at about level 5 for feet only, and then open up a different slot he can share at each tier of the ability. Let me know if you see any issues with that.

I'm also going to boost the penalties slightly for Path of the Ruler, and have the aura eventually provide bonuses equal to the granted penalties to affected allies. I'm probably going to keep the nondiscriminating debuff at low levels though.

I'm going to run a quick comparison between the Gunslinger, Rogue, Monk, and Sorcerer and see what I get for average damage under assumed average system mastery and compare that to Riven Darts to see if there isn't a way we can open that back up a little with a full attack option or something similar; I'll let you know what I come up with. Right now I'm thinking if we do a change it'll either be allowing the veilweaver to aim them all at a single target as a full round action with a -2 penalty to his attack rolls, or playing around with Riven Darts working a little more like Hand Cannons with virtual BAB and iteratives.

stack

2014-07-09, 10:00 AM

Circlet of brass bind lacks a range.

Ssalarn

2014-07-09, 11:05 AM

Circlet of brass bind lacks a range.

Gratzi! I'll get it addressed. Also, thanks for pimping the project in your tag!

PsyBomb

2014-07-09, 12:36 PM

Ssalarn

2014-07-09, 12:59 PM

Is it too late to try to adjust some veil effects? I've run across some that are in the 1-2* range (mostly noted above), but only a couple that really need adjusting. Polar Snowshoes is the big one (make the Bind last longer, so that others don't need to hug your damage aura or risk drowning... and either up the damage or give it some accompanying utility), though the Bind effect of Bangles of the Jealous Seductress needs a rewrite badly as well. Others are super-niche but I acknowledge could possibly be useful given the right circumstances. Less urgent than the class-defining Path and editing, but it's worth noting. I should be done going through Veils by tonight, I'm through Rings now.

Speaking of, on the Dark Lord's Ring of Essence-Binding, you may want to note that the Essence bonus also applies to the save DCs of their special attacks, or the Cairn Wight is going to fall off the map about 45 seconds after you get it.

I'll make the adjustment to DLRE-B.

So, Polar Snowshoes was one of those veils I originally conceived of as part of a set, where a clever player grabbed Polar Snowshoes for a bit of elemental control and then snagged another veil to grant the party energy resistance for a thematic combo up (in house it was dubbed the linnorm ensemble). I'm kind of on two minds on this. There are a lot of veils that really get better as you start matching them up and creating complimentary sets. Even the relatively weak ones can end up being part of a potent arsenal. I kind of think of building veil sets the same way I think about building a deck to play Magic the Gathering; sometimes those cards (veils) that are rated fairly low end up being that exact piece or that perfect niche to bring an entire game-winning combo together. The power of synergy between veils is something that is actually amplified by the Vizier's Veilshifting ability; sometimes it's worth losing a bind if you can get exactly the right combo of bonuses at exactly the right moment. I'm hesitant to boost the individual power of some veils because I don't want to lose or break that benefit of synergy and solid play. I will take another look at Polar Snowshoes though; if nothing else we can maybe make the damage aura equal to half the area of the freezing aura (or the freezing aura equal to twice the area of the damage aura... you get the idea).

PsyBomb

2014-07-09, 01:52 PM

I'll make the adjustment to DLRE-B.

So, Polar Snowshoes was one of those veils I originally conceived of as part of a set, where a clever player grabbed Polar Snowshoes for a bit of elemental control and then snagged another veil to grant the party energy resistance for a thematic combo up (in house it was dubbed the linnorm ensemble). I'm kind of on two minds on this. There are a lot of veils that really get better as you start matching them up and creating complimentary sets. Even the relatively weak ones can end up being part of a potent arsenal. I kind of think of building veil sets the same way I think about building a deck to play Magic the Gathering; sometimes those cards (veils) that are rated fairly low end up being that exact piece or that perfect niche to bring an entire game-winning combo together. The power of synergy between veils is something that is actually amplified by the Vizier's Veilshifting ability; sometimes it's worth losing a bind if you can get exactly the right combo of bonuses at exactly the right moment. I'm hesitant to boost the individual power of some veils because I don't want to lose or break that benefit of synergy and solid play. I will take another look at Polar Snowshoes though; if nothing else we can maybe make the damage aura equal to half the area of the freezing aura (or the freezing aura equal to twice the area of the damage aura... you get the idea).

Thanks. I was actually trying a build based around close-range AOE and control for a bit, and my boot slot was Polar (Light Whip, Bloody Shroud w/ Spiked Pauldrons, etc), but it ended up being too squishy with a REALLY unfortunate action economy for what amounted to a mook-clearing machine.

You are right about veil sets, although it shows up a lot more and is easier to see on the Daevic (particularly Wrath). Viziers I'm mostly seeing as the Bards of this book, rather than the Wizards (despite the Int reliance) since they are particularly good at supporting allied abilities. Crafting, sharing feats/veils, debuffing enemies... sounds like the three Paths, doesn't it? Their direct combat ability is almost incidental to their net effect, even if you're Rapid Shotting Hand Cannons paired with wrist-bound Storm Gauntlets (maths out to 10d6+113+10d8fire+10d8cold+10d8elec for 283 DPR average at lvl 19 assuming PBS, Deadly Aim, max Essence, and all hits with no crits).

Ssalarn

2014-07-09, 04:03 PM

The name of the class "Vizier" and the idea behind was really supposed to blend those ideas of a figure who played a supporting role and who had some elements of that potent mysticism normally reserved for 9 level casters. If his ability to blow stuff is really a secondary feature to his ability to facilitate a party's effectiveness, then it's pretty much a slam dunk and I got exactly what I was going for. Hopefully that's something people are digging :)

A while back I bumped into an "issue" with my group, where my level of system mastery was just beyond what anyone else in the group was even interested in trying to achieve, and playing down was really boring for me. So, I started specializing in support classes like the Bard, Cavalier, Warlord, some Oracle builds, support Paladins and Rangers, etc. And what I ended up discovering is that all of a sudden everyone was having a lot more fun. I was okay being awesome because a big part of my schtick was making everyone awesome, and we started really playing as a group instead of a collection of individuals for the first time in a while. It's why almost every class I build has some access or facility with Teamwork feats, auras, or some other method of party improvement. It's why over on the Paizo forums I'll laugh when someone says "Fighter doesn't need XYZ because this is supposed to be a team game", and then I explain to them what a team game actually looks like.

stack

2014-07-09, 09:43 PM

Oh, I play my vizier by blasting everything with handcannons. The other way would work too.

Anlashok

2014-07-09, 09:57 PM

If his ability to blow stuff is really a secondary feature to his ability to facilitate a party's effectiveness, then it's pretty much a slam dunk and I got exactly what I was going for.

It's definitely the slickest class in the book (IMO) but... what if you're looking to blow stuff up? Blowing stuff up is super fun and not something particularly well supported by core pathfinder materials.

Ssalarn

2014-07-09, 10:08 PM

PsyBomb

2014-07-09, 10:13 PM

It's definitely the slickest class in the book (IMO) but... what if you're looking to blow stuff up? Blowing stuff up is super fun and not something particularly well supported by core pathfinder materials.

Path of the Crafter doing a Hand Cannon specialization is hard to match if your DM allows you to treat the Veil as a weapon (not a stretch). The example I posted above was rough, I can push that damage WAY higher if I really try. At the very least, I was missing the Circlet of Brass and Chakra Targeting.

Focus-firing Riven Darts, Staff Blasting, and a couple of others also work.

Actually, speaking of the feats, I don't see the revisions to Expanded Capacity or Chakra Power which we talked about a couple of times.

Ssalarn

2014-07-09, 11:45 PM

Path of the Crafter doing a Hand Cannon specialization is hard to match if your DM allows you to treat the Veil as a weapon (not a stretch). The example I posted above was rough, I can push that damage WAY higher if I really try. At the very least, I was missing the Circlet of Brass and Chakra Targeting.

Focus-firing Riven Darts, Staff Blasting, and a couple of others also work.

Actually, speaking of the feats, I don't see the revisions to Expanded Capacity or Chakra Power which we talked about a couple of times.

Grrr.... Thanks for the catch, they're at the top of the list for me to correct.

Also, my intent was that Hand Cannon be treated as a ranged weapon, with all that entails. Feel free to let me know if there's something you'd like me to do to make that more clear

JusticeZero

2014-07-10, 01:06 AM

PsyBomb

2014-07-10, 06:45 AM

A bit more editing:

1) Gorget of the Wyrm missing Shoulder entry in Summary.

more to come as I dig them up.

Ssalarn

2014-07-10, 11:58 AM

The feats look like slam dunks for a P6 game for everyone, creating a steady power creep. Something to be aware of, anyways.
Treewalker: Do you have to invest Essence into each plant you intend to climb? I'd assume not, but the description is vague.
Guru: I wish there was less leaning on Oriental weapons. For instance, ability to use a bo staff but not a quarterstaff? I rule the two as identical, but not every GM would. Some campaigns do not have those weapons available normally.

I tried to put a mixture of weapons in each Philosophy, with the goal being about a 50/50 split between CRB weapons and APG/UC eastern flavored weapons. I think quarterstaff was trimmed off as a result of just trying to keep every philosophy with the same number of options. I'll review the lists and see if there aren't some positive changes that could be made there.

JusticeZero

2014-07-10, 02:59 PM

Ssalarn

2014-07-10, 03:19 PM

If nothing else, check the Eastern weapons to see if they are variants of regular ones. And recognize that the normal weapons are used in Eastern too - for instance, the movie "Crouching Tiger.." was centered around an enchanted Rapier.

Certainly! I'm also trying to leave a certain amount of thematic growth for future Philosophies. The Akasin was intended to use polearms and weapons more evocative of celestial warriors, the Sineater was the close quarters combatant, and the Vayist was intended to focus more on weapons that matched up with the idea that he's one with the wind. Some of the Philosophies that didn't make the cut, like the Hammuran whose more tyrannical and controlling philosophy seemed better kept for a later expansion, had few, if any, eastern weapons at all and instead focused on weapons that evinced cruelty or hard justice like axes, spiked gauntlets, and morningstars.

I'll get a little deeper into the final revisions of the Guru sometime next week and will definitely be looking forward to hearing what you have to say.

I'm going to take the feedback I've been getting from everyone here and in the other forums and get it incorporated into the Vizier tonight, at which point it's off to Jeremy who'll continue the layout I asked him to hold off on so the Vizier could get a little more refinement and feedback. I'm really excited to see the finished the product, and the art we've already received back is something I'm really excited about.

I talked about this on the Paizo forums, but my art orders for the 3 classes included (or will include in some cases) a male half-elf Vizier, a male dwarf Guru (Akasin), and a female gnome Daevic (Wrath). The Vizier sketches received final approval a while back and the finished art has been ready for a while and I'm hoping everyone will like it as much as I do. Depending on how well the Vizier and Guru releases sell may have an impact on the art we can order for the akashic monsters and races, so those are still pretty nebulous. I've actually got a specific artist in mind for the Gamla, but I haven't heard back from her on whether she's available for the project, so I can't say much there other than that I know exactly the person to make an awesome anthropomorphized camel that doesn't look like a cartoon.

JusticeZero

2014-07-10, 03:36 PM

One note is that the max Essence investment seems like it has potential to become like the PP supernova fallacy due to being limited by a rule that isn't pointed out in the section where people go to get things limited by the rule. It should be restated by reference when the feats are brought out. I went in looking for what it would do to an E6 game (answer :a big power creep that probably nudges the power levels up a CR or three) but had to reread it to figure out if there was a limit.

PsyBomb

2014-07-10, 06:33 PM

I'm going to take the feedback I've been getting from everyone here and in the other forums and get it incorporated into the Vizier tonight, at which point it's off to Jeremy who'll continue the layout I asked him to hold off on so the Vizier could get a little more refinement and feedback. I'm really excited to see the finished the product, and the art we've already received back is something I'm really excited about.

Any chance of us seeing it before it goes final for proofing? I'm doing the last of what I hit tonight, but there are a lot of changes coming (some big, some small) right as it's about to go final.

Incidentally, do the Eyes of the Oracle need to be declared before making a roll, or can it be added after?

Ssalarn

2014-07-10, 11:45 PM

Any chance of us seeing it before it goes final for proofing? I'm doing the last of what I hit tonight, but there are a lot of changes coming (some big, some small) right as it's about to go final.

Incidentally, do the Eyes of the Oracle need to be declared before making a roll, or can it be added after?

I'm getting the final version prepped now with all the notes I've gotten from everyone and I'll attach it to the link in the OP shortly. It may not end up being exactly what the final version looks like, but mechanically it should be the same. I'll pop in and let you know once it's posted.

Ssalarn

2014-07-11, 12:55 AM

Final round of changes:

Rules for akasha and veilweaving enhanced and grouped in their entirety just after the veil list.

Path of the Ruler buffed to increase the penalties inflicted by aura of subjugation.

Adjustments made to Path of the Seer opening up his ability for limited veil sharing at lower levels.

Range added to Circlet of Brass.

Investing Essence into the Dark Lord's Ring of Essence Binding now also improves the created undead's DCs for special abilities.

Polar Snowshoes updated so that the freezing bind effect now extends beyond the aura's immediate damaging radius.

Enhanced Veil Capacity changed to simply Enhanced Capacity and is now a valid facilitator for any chakra receptacle.

Corrected error where Gorget of the Wyrm was not appearing in the veil summary list.

Added some verbage to Eye of the Oracle clarifying that the granted bonus may be applied after the roll, but before the result is known.

This is headed back in to layout tomorrow afternoon guys, so let me know if there's any big items I've managed to miss or overlook.

PsyBomb

2014-07-11, 07:45 AM

Ok, let's get started on the last list of corrections and balance for the Vizier:

1) Tauric Brace, the binds are arranged in reverse order from normal
2) Chakra Power change to include Piranha Strike and not require strength as a prereq has not been made, will it be included or a separate feat later?
3) Path of the Ruler is still a bit bland, but at least usable now. Perhaps, instead of excluding the designated allies from the aura effect at level 5, make the effect bonuses to them?
4) The Veil-sharing effect of Akashic Army is at least usable now, thank you, although being limited to those slots still hurts the ability outside of Akasha-based parties. Still needs verbiage on how to change what veil is being utilized by the ally (current assumption is that it is chosen as they become affected by the ability, and re-chosen each time).

More to come

5) Curiass of Confidence doesn't have a save interval listed, a particularly generous reading could force saves every round, pass or fail, until everything is Fanatic to you. I assume 1 save, pass or fail, per 24 hours is intended.
6) Robe of the Forgotten Deity Body bind has a listed duration, but no listed limitations on use. As written, it can be more or less constant, only needing to be physical long enough to take a Swift action every few rounds. If it was in any slot, I'd say it was unintended, but in the Body bind-slot which only comes on at level 20... not so sure.

Ssalarn

2014-07-11, 10:23 PM

PsyBomb

2014-07-11, 10:42 PM

Final Changelog:
Chakra Power now works with Piranha Strike as well as Power Attack.

Tauric Brace corrected so that bind layout follows standard formatting.

Allies excluded from the Ruler's aura of subjugation now gain a +2 bonus to Will saving throws at 9th level, and the wording of the 17th level ability has been altered so that it can be used offensively or defensively.

Minor clarifications and simplifications to Akashic Army.

Cuirass of Confidence clarified to affect a particular creature only once every 24 hours.

Hand Cannons Essence bonus now provides a +1 enhancement bonus per 2 points of Essence invested to assist in penetrating DR.

And that's it! The Vizier is now off for final layout and production! I'll still take any notes you guys pass on to me for review before the final compilation, but there won't be any more changes applied to the Vizier's playtest documents from this point forward. Thank you everyone for your insight and assistance. Next up in the production schedule: the Guru!

One down, two to go... and WOOT! Awesome change log, even if it take a tiny bit of the edge off my main offensive Veil.

In any case, I'll be picking up the subscription to this one when it becomes available, and the guide is complete through the Veils (feats, races, and builds left to do, though I won't put it up for the public until the PDF comes out and it's all official). If you want to see it, I can hang it up on Google Docs as I work. Looking forward to the next steps, to be sure, the Guru is my favorite of the crop so far.

EDIT: Prereqs remained on Chakra Power, making it effectively unusable for Piranha Strike builds. I'm going to be writing the guide under the assumption that this was not intended, since nobody who takes Power Attack is ever going to bother taking Piranha Strike. I'm also guessing that at some point, an item that increases capacity of Veils in the slot (or increases Essence effectively invested), since right now the system maximum is 8 invested in a veil (Vizier or Guru with Expanded Capacity, 4 base + 3 Improved Capacity + 1 feat) and the Cannons can use up to 10

Ssalarn

2014-07-12, 12:12 AM

Psyren

2014-07-12, 05:35 AM

Awesome, haven't been back here in a while. Going through the updated documents, I had some questions/observations:

Vizier

Aura of Subjugation: Can the Vizier force enemies to reroll will saves from allied effects? If so, is the Vizier aware of it when an enemy makes a will save against an allied effect?

Path of the Seer: I think you should structure this the same way you structured Path of the Ruler. In other words - "Path of the Seer: {fluff description}", followed by a separate aura ability (with the (Su) tag) that grants the speed increase. That way you won't need the "this is a supernatural ability" explanatory text.

Foresee Conflict: What happens if the Vizier wants to retrain a Teamwork feat that is currently being used as the prerequisite for another feat or ability?

Bangles of the Jealous Seductress:
- The Wrists bind notation should be "[D7, V8]."
- Does the slashing chakram count as magic for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction?
- Does the chakram do (1d4+1)/e, or 1d4 + (1/e)?

Bloody Shroud: Is "darksome energy" a typo?

Collar of Skilled Instruction: Can this be used to Aid Another In Combat? (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Aid-Another)

Cuirass of Confidence: Does the Diplomacy-AC-replacement ability granted by the Chest bind work on mindless or otherwise mind-affecting immune creatures?

Dark Lord's Ring of Essence Binding:
- What action is required to animate a body with this veil?
- What happens if you target a non-humanoid corpse with this ability?
- What happens if you target a humanoid corpse with the giant subtype?
- What happens if you target a corpse with a size category other than medium?
- What happens if you target a corpse that has racial hit dice, e.g. a troglodyte? Will the zombie keep those RHD as normal?
- Can the Cairn Wights (from the ring bind) create spawn?
- Cairn Wights are intelligent and can speak - do they know anything the corpse knew in life?
- Will a Cairn Wight become free-willed upon the Vizier's death?

Dreamcatcher: I think 3 rounds is too short for this bind - anyone in a 60ft. cone in front of the Vizier will be making will saves constantly. If you spend 10 minutes talking to someone they will have made 30 saving throws, feeling a hostile force or tingle with every success. I would consider anyone who makes their save being immune for 1 minute, 10 minutes, 1 hour or even 24 hours.

Eyes of the Hawkguard: Does the essence ability extend the range of your True Seeing?

Gorget of the Wyrm: Do you choose the shape (line or cone) when you shape the veil, or each time you activate it?

Heart of the Wight: "directly into the core of energy that flows from the wielder's core" sounds odd/redundant.

Horselord's Greaves: Consider making the "AC/saves per essence buff for mounts" ability baseline instead of tying it to each of the binds. This would not only make the veil more attractive for non-veilweaving classes who use mounts but have not accessed their chakras, it would also save you real estate on repeating that same sentence under each of the binds. The need to invest essence for more than minor gains will keep it balanced.

Light Whip: Do feats, items and other modifiers that affect the trip ability apply to the veil?

Riven Darts: Do the darts truly have a maximum range of just 20 feet, or was that meant to be a range increment?

Robe of the Forgotten Deity: Do you get the bonus in darker than dim light?

Snakehandler's Gauntlets: The ability describes the poison from the Hands bind as "magical film," but the poison itself is tagged as (Ex), making it nonmagical. Which is right? Will the poison persist in an antimagic field if already coating a weapon, or is the poison supernatural?

Spiked Pauldrons: Do the spikes count as magic for overcoming damage reduction?

Stone Giant's Girdle:
- The abilities this grants you should be renamed to "Rock Throwing" and "Rock Catching."
- What is the damage of a Vizier's rock throwing ability? For Giants this is normally based on slam damage (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules#TOC-Rock-Throwing-Ex-), but Viziers don't have a slam attack.

Stormcaller's Band: This should have the [Air] descriptor.

Storm Gauntlets: This should have all three descriptors of the damage it deals. ("See text" might be the easiest way to do this.)

Vestments of the Maharaja: This should have either the [compulsion] or [mind-affecting] descriptors, or both. I would also include the "obviously self-destructive commands are not followed" clause from dominate.

Feats:

Akashic Augmentation: Like Midnight Augmentation, it is not clear whether this reduction applies each time the power is augmented (more powerful), or to the total cost of the power (less powerful.) For example, if I manifest Astral Construct level IV (normally 7 PP - 1 + 2 + 2 + 2) with 1 essence invested in AA, will the total cost be 4 (1 + [2-1] + [2-1] + [2-1]), or 6 (1 + 2 + 2 + 2 -1)?

Chakra Strike: I think this should apply to all precision damage, thus allowing things like Favored Enemy and Precise Strike to benefit from it as well as the two abilities listed, and remove the prerequisites.

Essence of the Immortal: This one might be a bit too strong - it grants a Vizier 60+ extra hp with a single feat. I would make it equal to the essence pool, or perhaps essence pool + 10, instead of essence pool * 2.

Shared Veil:
- Can this be used with psicrystals? If so, what chakras do they get?
- For limbless companions, assuming they only get the Heart and Body chakras, are those the only veils you can share with them even if those veils are not bound?

Veilbound Resilience: This one scales oddly. At level 11, a Vizier can store 4 essentia in this feat, granting them 48 HP of healing per day. One level later this jumps to 75. At 18 it becomes 108 total, and at 20 it becomes 245. I'm not sure it's really a problem, it's just weird.

View Energy: Can you tell the difference between a living and non-living creature if viewed with this ability? (Magic Jar has text around this.)

I'll dig through the Guru and Daevic this weekend if I can.

PsyBomb

2014-07-12, 08:29 AM

D'oh! I e-mailed Jeremy asking him to add "or Piranha Strike" after Power Attack in the prereqs for Chakra Power and made the change in my source documents, so it should work as intended when the .pdf releases.

Also, yes, there will be a selection of magic items available, and some of them can be used to allow you to scale beyond your normal Essence Capacity, which is why the Hand Cannons have a cap of +5 even though you currently can't raise your capacity to that degree with any of the available options (also because I prefer forward thinking rules).

Don't forget to drop the Strength requirement, or the same situation crops up. This also gives the feat the ability to work with certain builds (like a THF Ranger or certain Monks) that might not have the Strength for Power Attack, but got it anyway. Should read "Prerequisites: 13 CON, either Power Attack or Piranha Strike"

And nice catches, Psyren. Not sure how I missed the Rock Throwing thing, I think I was assuming you'd key off the Stone Giant (due to the name of the Veil).

PsyBomb

2014-07-13, 01:51 PM

stack

2014-07-14, 06:57 AM

Ssalarn

2014-07-14, 11:13 AM

Sorry for the double-post, but it's a distinct reason and been a bit. Initial version of my guide is up, Feats aren't done and the build stubs aren't there, but here is roughly V0.5. All commentary welcome, especially from Ssalarn (since Word of Creator will be invaluable to have secure RAI)

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1s_nhfamh0Uaqxmqe7u7in61OWT3lhAhVDEC9WQZ6jcc/edit?usp=sharing

EDIT: Different link, to the one I can edit online.

Love the guide PsyBomb! I saw that you added Path of the Ruler in but your introductory paragraph still says you only talk about two.

To be honest, I was a little relieved at how much yellow there was in the veils given the amount of blue in the class itself. A lot of those veils (as you note) move up situationally depending on what else you have active and what you're fighting so "average but moves up a notch when XYZ" is pretty much exactly what we want to see. Like you note, the Vizier's big strength is being able to adapt very readily to XYZ.

As to Veils serving as feat qualifications - here's how I understand this to work based on my conversation with the Paizo devs: You have to have continuous access to a feat, ability modifier, etc. for 24 hours before it counts as a permanent bonus, and dring normal veilshaping you unshape your previous veils. That being said, if you utilize your Veilshifting ability to swap out instead of going through your normal daily process, you can keep a specific veil shaped indefinitely and could use it as a qualifier that way. You'd give up a chunk of your versatility, but in exchange you could use your veils to help progress feat chains. Just note, if you do use your standard daily prep you'd lose access to whatever chain they were enabling for the next 24 hours (longer if you don't reshape the veil granting the prereq as part of the process). So it's possible, but probably not the most efficient way to go about a build, particularly not at lower levels.

stack

2014-07-15, 04:03 PM

Ssalarn

2014-07-15, 05:05 PM

Aegis - Zirith: normally aegis get PP based on INT, but the archetype gets veilweaving based on the daevic. Should their be a line specifying their veilweaving modifier?

Also, do they get no inherent essence aside from spending PP or customizations? I presume they can skill get essence from feats and such normally, correct?

I'll clarify that they should be using INT as their veilweaving modifier, since the default would be Wisdom. And that's correct, they don't have an inherent Essence Pool, but nothing is preventing them from gaining one via feat investment or from other sources, and Essence pools from all sources stack.

The archetypes are on my list for an update sometime towards the middle of next week, which will include a few new archetypes and some adjustments to bring the "Contemplation" in line with the Golden Rule of Psionics (Despite the cost progression being appropriate we don't want to create confusion by introducing a rule that doesn't jive neatly with the existing framework).

Psyren

2014-07-15, 05:12 PM

Ssalarn

2014-07-15, 06:35 PM

Did you see my notes Ssalarn? In particular I'm concerned about the Dark Lord's Ring of Essence Binding, Stone Giant's Girdle and those Akashic Feats that contain the same ambiguities as the Incarnum feats they are based on (e.g. Akashic Augmentation and Shared Veil.)

I did, and I'm going to get them addressed but I'm not sure if that will happen in this first release as everyone's kind of on crunch time, or if it'll be in an update to the Vizier .pdf. I will have the polished versions incorporating your feedback out in time for the Guru release for certain. Worst case scenario is that the Vizier gets errata'd at that time.

PsyBomb

2014-07-15, 09:53 PM

I've begun my own Guru review in depth, basically writing a guide for it and going to be bringing things up as I find them.

EDIT: I just realized... possibly the best race in the SRD for Skillmonkey-role Gurus happens to be the Vanara. This makes me giggle like a schoolgirl, and I'm playing one next time I find a group that will let me. When you get around to writing Alternate Favored Class Features, PLEASE give these guys a good one here :smallbiggrin:

Psyren

2014-07-16, 08:48 AM

All right, fair enough. I just hope you don't end up having to issue day one errata thanks to a Cairn Wightocalypse :smallbiggrin:

Anyhow, continuing on.

Guru:

All abilities: These need to be given Su, Ex and Sp tags. (Most appear to be Su.) This will also allow you to remove explanatory text like the "This is a supernatural ability" e.g. from Perfect Independence.

Proficiencies: Out of curiosity, is it possible for one of the Guru paths to get kusarigama proficiency? Particularly the Sineater (which has the similar spiked chain) or the vayist (which has other whiplike weapons.)

Lucent Revivification. Can you raise someone without diamonds with this? (I ask because even the Paladin's Ultimate Mercy does not waive the material component.)

Scintillant Form: Can you meditate in your own daylight aura to fuel Absorb Radiance?

Incandescent Strike: Can this bonus damage be lethal if Gentle Touch is not active?

Travel the Paths of Light: Does the daylight aura from Scintillant Form let you begin the teleport from anywhere?

Devour Sin:
- Can you punch yourself/allies/animal companions/random NPCs/anthills etc. with nonlethal in order to recover essence burn, or is this restricted to enemies?
- Will you still regain essence burn if DR or hardness reduces the damage dealt to 0, or if your target is immune to nonlethal?
- Will any sort of nonlethal damage trigger this? For example, a spell that deals nonlethal, or attacking a regenerating creature for lethal without realizing they can regenerate?

Purify the Unclean:
- What is the action required to activate this ability?
- Can this do lethal damage if you're not activating it with Gentle Touch?

Wages of Sin: Does this restore essence burn on a successful save by the target?

Aether Ties: You can simply say "-2 penalty to all attack rolls that do not include the vayist as a target" and remove the subsequent sentence defining attacks entirely :smallsmile:

Aether Infusion: It seems odd that the Blur effect lasts for 3 rounds while the more powerful mirror image effect lasts for a minimum of 40, for a mere 1 more point of essence burn. I know which one I'd be using! More an observation than a question.

Leaf on the Wind: Fall damage is measured in increments of 10ft., as is the monk's Slow Fall ability, so I would recommend doing the same here to avoid fractional math disputes. In addition, the ability is pretty weak so this would help both the DM and the player.

Breath of the East Wind:
- Does the alter winds effect move with you?
- If you teleport to a square inside the river of wind effect and begin your turn there, will the wind knock you over and deal damage to you?

Chakra Disruption:
- Do disruptions stack? (e.g can I slow and blind the same enemy by hitting them twice?)
- Can disruptions be used against an enemy who lacks the corresponding body slot? For example, can you penalize the attack rolls of a creature with no hands, like a horse or lion?
- Does essence I invest in this ability apply to all uses? For instance, if I invest 6 essence, does that mean I can slow an enemy by 30ft. with one attack and then reduce the Dex of another by 6 without reallocating the essence?
- I think the DC might scale a bit too quickly on this one. A level 12 Guru will have an essence capacity of 5 (3 base + 2 IEC class feature) for a total DC of 10 +10 + Wis before feats. For comparison, a Witch will not gain the same DC on her hexes, nor a monk on his stunning fist, until level 20.
- (Hands): Does this debuff affect ranged attacks that use the hands too, such as bows or firearms? How about spells with attack rolls and somatic components, like rays?
- (Shoulders): Does this debuff affect shield bonuses that don't come from held/worn shields, for example the Shield spell or a ring of force shield?

Sunder Veil: In order to damage undead with this ability, do you have to spend a stunning fist use, or is it constantly active? If the former, how long does it last before you need to do it again?

Sever The Flow: The wording on this is confusing - first it says "all magical effects and magic items currently affecting the target are disjoined" but then it says "this ability does not affect magic items wielded or worn by the target." Which is right? And if it does not affect wielded/worn magic items, will it affect slotless ones e.g. luckstone, or ioun stone?

Veils
Apologies if I repeat any comments made on veils shared by the Vizier.

Airbound Imbuement: Eh, constant air walk is nice but a bit weak for level 20. I'd like to add something to this, though I'm not sure what. No issues here other than the power.

Collar of Skilled Instruction: See Vizier comments.

Diadem of Pure Reflection:
- Will this reflect area attacks, e.g. Glitterdust? If so, will it still only be the caster who is affected, or will the entire effect be reflected and centered on the caster?
- If this is used on an area attack and the Guru makes his save, will any affected allies still be in danger after the effect is reflected?

Dreamcatcher: See Vizier comments.

Eyes of the Hawkguard: See Vizier comments.

Forcestrike Knuckles: This should have the [force] descriptor.

Immaculate Touch: Is this a Guru veil? It's on the list but it only says "Daevic" in the classes and "[D4]" in the bind.

Immovable Boots: This should probably have the [earth] descriptor.

Snakehandler's Gauntlets: See Vizier comments.

Stone Giant's Girdle: See Vizier comments.

Also, general question: In MoI, when you bound a soulmeld to a chakra, its appearance changed (generally becoming more tangible, or fusing into the meldshaper's flesh in some way.) This was not only cool, but it was a way for Incarnum-savvy opponents to have an idea of when a given meld was bound or not just by looking at it. Are there any plans to add this to Akasha, or will opponents be able to tell if a soulshaper is bound just through the knowledge check to identify it?

Ssalarn

2014-07-16, 01:29 PM

EDIT: I just realized... possibly the best race in the SRD for Skillmonkey-role Gurus happens to be the Vanara. This makes me giggle like a schoolgirl, and I'm playing one next time I find a group that will let me. When you get around to writing Alternate Favored Class Features, PLEASE give these guys a good one here :smallbiggrin:

It's hilarious that you mention this, because I was just telling people on the Paizo forums how a vanara Guru (Vayist) wielding a flying blade and bolas inspired me to go start their favored class and alternate racial trait write up, because they absolutely had to make the cut for featured races.

Ssalarn

2014-07-16, 01:31 PM

All right, fair enough. I just hope you don't end up having to issue day one errata thanks to a Cairn Wightocalypse :smallbiggrin:

I'm touching bases with Jeremy tonight, I'm hoping we'll get it addressed then.

Also, general question: In MoI, when you bound a soulmeld to a chakra, its appearance changed (generally becoming more tangible, or fusing into the meldshaper's flesh in some way.) This was not only cool, but it was a way for Incarnum-savvy opponents to have an idea of when a given meld was bound or not just by looking at it. Are there any plans to add this to Akasha, or will opponents be able to tell if a soulshaper is bound just through the knowledge check to identify it?

Go reread the new rules on veils. Veils are nearly invisible without investment and easy to disguise, but become more visible and tangible when bound or invested with Essence.

JusticeZero

2014-07-16, 03:10 PM

I know it isn't going to be in the original release, but is there anything on the hinted at support/repair class yet?

Ssalarn

2014-07-16, 03:42 PM

I know it isn't going to be in the original release, but is there anything on the hinted at support/repair class yet?

The Veda or Vedist (name still in flux) is still in early development, but it will be a veilweaving class with access to veils that help address non-hit-point related injuries and maladies like level damage/drain, curses, diseases, negative levels, etc. He'll also provide an in-combat method for restoring his or an allies veils that have been suppressed due to sundering, dispelling, disjunction, etc. His veil list will have some overlap primarily with the Guru, and currently he's also a WIS based veilweaver, though that may be subject to change.

Aside from it being low priority right now since it's tagged for a 2nd book release, the biggest thing keeping me from moving forward is that I'm having a little trouble deciding whether it works better as a complete stand-alone class, or as an alternate class or archetype for the Guru. There is (currently) a lot of thematic and mechanical overlap between the two.

The upside: I'm going to be spending a lot of time getting the Guru ready to go into layout this weekend, and I'll make a final decision on the ultimate disposition of the Veda then. If I decide it works best as an alternate class or archetype for the Guru, I'll port the veils into the Guru doc and add the Veda to the archetypes playtest doc, providing a true healer class as part of the initial release.

JusticeZero

2014-07-16, 04:24 PM

It's also possible to have a healer ACF and a later healer class with different mechanics, too. The Egoist doesn't invalidate the Vitalist, for instance. I'm always a fan of including a heal&support class in a new subsystem's first release, as a "healer" makes a much better lead edge of the wedge to adoption.

PsyBomb

2014-07-16, 04:40 PM

The Veda or Vedist (name still in flux) is still in early development, but it will be a veilweaving class with access to veils that help address non-hit-point related injuries and maladies like level damage/drain, curses, diseases, negative levels, etc. He'll also provide an in-combat method for restoring his or an allies veils that have been suppressed due to sundering, dispelling, disjunction, etc. His veil list will have some overlap primarily with the Guru, and currently he's also a WIS based veilweaver, though that may be subject to change.

Aside from it being low priority right now since it's tagged for a 2nd book release, the biggest thing keeping me from moving forward is that I'm having a little trouble deciding whether it works better as a complete stand-alone class, or as an alternate class or archetype for the Guru. There is (currently) a lot of thematic and mechanical overlap between the two.

The upside: I'm going to be spending a lot of time getting the Guru ready to go into layout this weekend, and I'll make a final decision on the ultimate disposition of the Veda then. If I decide it works best as an alternate class or archetype for the Guru, I'll port the veils into the Guru doc and add the Veda to the archetypes playtest doc, providing a true healer class as part of the initial release.

I could see either way, to be honest, given the Akasin's potential to be "I Can't Believe It's Not Paladin!" gameplay. I don't know the general mechanics of how you were seeing it, but I had been thinking of a playstyle that focused around a low-magnitude but high-use Channel Energy supported by defensive Veils. This could be accomplished by adding an Archetype or Philosophy to the Guru, and fits thematically with the whole Gentle Touch concept. Curious to see how yours runs.

JusticeZero

2014-07-16, 05:06 PM

Well, HP recovery is the least of a "healer"'s problems. In practice, they usually end up doing the CLW wand type stuff for after combat healing, and that's already doable in Akashic material. It's removal of negative levels, poison, curses, death, etc. that they have to deal with, and those are NOT yet defined.

Ssalarn

2014-07-16, 05:40 PM

I could see either way, to be honest, given the Akasin's potential to be "I Can't Believe It's Not Paladin!" gameplay. I don't know the general mechanics of how you were seeing it, but I had been thinking of a playstyle that focused around a low-magnitude but high-use Channel Energy supported by defensive Veils. This could be accomplished by adding an Archetype or Philosophy to the Guru, and fits thematically with the whole Gentle Touch concept. Curious to see how yours runs.

If I go in with a Guru archetype, it'll probably exchange the Chakra Disruptions for something more akin to a Paladin's Mercies, but tweaked up a bit and scaled to amtch up with the Cleric's ability to remove status affects instead of the Paladin's more delayed progression. I'm also a bit conflicted if I do it that way on whether to mandate a specific Philosophy (which helps address the raising the dead issue as well), or to a larger exchange of abilities to introduce a more reliable form of combat relevant healing than is currently available.

I'll try and get something thrown up this weekend for you guys to look at and help decide if it feels like it's leaning in the correct direction.

Ilorin Lorati

2014-07-16, 05:56 PM

As a personal opinion, I would rather have the options to have a dedicated class or full alternate class, ala Vitalist. I absolutely adore Vitalist as a healer class because:

It lets players be dedicated healers without rendering them useless when they don't need to heal.
Assumes that the majority of their kit is going to be focused on support, and makes adjustments accordingly (ex. Steal Health as consistent, albeit low, damage unlimited/day)
Allows for permutations on the theme without needing to redefine everything multiple times (Archetypes and Methods, neither of which would be easy as a single archetype - Sadist Life Leech is the coolest healer ever.

When talking about whether or not a support option needs to be a class or an archetype, obviously the first two aren't that big of a deal - you can just grab a damaging option or a debuffing option and be fine - but in my experience it doesn't feel good when you're trying to be a support build to need to waste a limited option on a non-support ability; Vitalist sidesteps that entirely by having the non-support option also be an essential part of the support kit.

The latter is the big thing. It's incredibly hard to have single archetype that's both the "light" healer and the "dark" healer or anything in between (or off to the side). It's more likely that you'd end up needing multiple archetypes for it - which would have a lot of rules overlap or wouldn't get done at all.

Ssalarn

2014-07-16, 06:06 PM

I suspect that what will end up happening is that I'll have a Guru archetype in this one following the basic ideas I went over earlier, and the Veda (or whatever) will probably get a complete re-imagining for the next book that allows me to do something completely different than I've done so far. It would be fairly appropriate since several of the classes lined up for the potential next book use Essence completely independently of veils.

One thing I thought about doing was a healing/support class that can invest Essence into allies providing various effects (like providing Fast Healing equal to the invested Essence, or a bonus to various saves, etc.), and whose trick for status removal would be to draw out a given status effect when Essence invested in an ally is reclaimed and make a boosted save against that effect. So, for example, you could invest Essence into an ally to give him Fast Healing 2, and then if he were blinded by a spell or effect, you could reclaim that Essence, drawing the blindness into yourself and making a new save against it with a +2 bonus. Or potentially even move that Essence into another ally, so that if you have a Wizard who fails a Fortitude save vs. disease the Veda could draw the disease out and give it to the party Paladin whose innate immunities would allow him to automatically save against the effect.

Thoughts?

Psyren

2014-07-16, 06:43 PM

I *love* the "draw out affliction" idea. It dovetails seamlessly with Akasha's reputation as being "primitive magic." (I can just see a civilized cleric turning up their nose at the mere thought of a healer who has to pull a poison, disease or curse out of her victim's body and expose herself to it.) Pretty unique. At higher levels they should probbaly be able to gain temporary immunity to certain effects (say, "if you invest 5 or more essence into this ability, you gain immunity to X...), which both makes them useful in an endgame party and allows them to autosucceed at cleansing certain debuffs from party members.

PsyBomb

2014-07-16, 07:04 PM

stack

2014-07-16, 07:18 PM

A method to draw them out and put them into an enemy would be even better...

Just sayin'.:smallwink:

PsyBomb

2014-07-16, 07:58 PM

A method to draw them out and put them into an enemy would be even better...

Just sayin'.:smallwink:

... this one got me thinking, BIG TIME. What if Ssalarn uses this opportunity to make the new class use an existing mechanic in a very new way? The Veda could use the Vitalist's Collective mechanic to define its allies, which would just incidentally enable the Network feats to have a new use (and there is one there that lets you force unwilling creatures into the Collective).

This will require more thought to check for balance and viability, but if the big guy doesn't go that route then I'll likely homebrew it :D

Ssalarn

2014-07-16, 08:26 PM

Ooh, I'm liking the idea of an Akashic Collective.....
Hmmmm.....
Gonna have to play with some ideas for creating Essence networks....

JusticeZero

2014-07-16, 08:32 PM

Like a Life Leech Miasmist sort've thing, then? That'd be nifty. The only idea i'd had was something about pushing veils onto other people, including veils to suppress conditions, possibly with an ability to harmfully revoke the veils afterward. Maybe a good mechanic, maybe not, but it would be a different class worth.

PsyBomb

2014-07-16, 09:05 PM

Editing notes: Guru edition.

1) Eyes of the Hawkguard mislabeled as "Eyes of the Archer Lord" in the summary.
2) Stone Giant's Girdle missing Body bind in summary.
3) No listed range for Martyr's Toga, so at the moment you can Leadership 40 Gurus and have them siphon off your wounds from across planar boundaries.

more to come as I find them

stack

2014-07-16, 09:11 PM

Hmm, putting essence into someone then carefully drawing it out to transfer status effects, then redirect and shove the essence into another in raw form, giving them the condition and maybe token damage from the overload (but giving them essence for a round or two, if they can use it, or maybe giving a generic option if they can't), then also being able to rip essence from a foe, leaving them with a condition (shaken, sickened, something of that nature, possibly escalating to nauseated and stunned as the amount of essence extracted increases) and granting you temporary essence (while depriving them of it). Could make a solid support/debuffer. Give a variety of ways to buff others with your essence, cover the various healing rolls, and debuff too.

Ssalarn

2014-07-17, 02:06 PM

I'll just leave this here for you guys to look over while I work on the Guru:

Here's the initial pitch for a proposed sequel, Akashic Mysteries: Lords of Essence.

"I'd like to do three new classes who all explore akashic energy and Essence in a way that exists separately from veils and veilweaving, focusing more on investing Essence directly into their surroundings, their allies, or their enemies. We'd take the hints that the Guru gives about Essence having uses outside of powering veils and really open that up with some new classes: the Tatvaist who mixes his raw Essence into the 4 basic elements, allowing him to control earth, air, fire, or water as though it were a direct extension of himself; the Veda or Vedist who heals by investing Essence into allies and drawing out their afflictions when he reclaims it; and the Pharaoh, who uses brief bursts of akashic energy to create whips, spears, shields, and chariots he can use to counter spells, protect allies, and force others to obey him or suffer deleterious effects.

The Tatvaist is going to be something of a classic elementalist, selecting a primary element that he gains mastery of. Each element will also be associated with a series of Style feats, giving the Tatvaist unique combat options and a wider array of techniques for participating in challenging combats beyond just powering through resistances to his chosen element. Each element will have an array of scaling "tools" tied in to their associated element that they can empower and improve upon through Essence investment.

The Veda can invest Essence into his allies to give them things like Fast Healing, DR, and save bonuses equal to the amount of Essence invested, scaling up at later levels to include things like ability damage/drain resistance. If the ally fails a save against an effect, like blindness, the Veda can recover the Essence, drawing the affliction out of the ally and into himself, making a new save with a bonus equal to the recovered Essence. At later levels he'll expand this ability to the point where he can shift the recovered Essence into allies or even enemies, so that he could do things like take a disease that a wizard was just afflicted with and transfer it to the party Paladin whose immunity would instantly negate it, or even try to invest the Essence into an enemy along with the effect, twisting the Essence so that it provides a penalty to the save instead of a bonus.

The Pharaoh is purely conceptual at this point, but I have a really good idea of what I want to do with it. I want the Pharaoh to embody some ideas we've seen in psionics, Path of War, and Akashic Mysteries, blending them together into a class that just plays like pure awesome. The basic design layout would be this:
The core Pharaoh gains certain bonuses just for having an Essence pool (or maybe has a special internalized receptacle he can invest into), giving him things like natural armor, temp hp, bonuses to certain skills, etc. The Pharaoh also learns special "Akashic Maneuvers" that he can activate by taking Essence Burn; these may use the standard maneuver format already presented in Path of War, or they may end up being a more uniquely formatted type of ability. The key though, is that instead of them being expended when used, that Essence Burn function is going to make using your powers a bit more like a psion's power points, where you just know all of your abilities and you can choose to do twenty Disruption Spears to counter enemy spellcasting (draining your Essence pool and possibly losing some of your static bonuses as you do), or use a mix of your Akashic Maneuvers and keep some of your Essence in reserve to shore up your survivability.

We'll also look into expanding the work started with the akashic races with new racial archetypes, favored class bonuses, and alternate racial traits, and look at expanding to provide additional support for core races that didn't see as much love the first time around, like half-orcs and halflings."

Psyren

2014-07-17, 02:56 PM

JusticeZero

2014-07-17, 03:06 PM

Yeah, no reason why a Collective would be required to remove or move a status effect; Collectives are just a different form of targeting, like ranged touch, touch, etc.

Ssalarn

2014-07-17, 03:17 PM

Tatvaist: Combat styles + Elements? I smell Bending :smalltongue:
Vedist I'm on board with. I don't like the idea of a Collective though, that should really be the Vitalist's thing.
Pharaoh sounds like it should be a PrC - an Akasha/PoW theurge of some kind.

You know, the elementalist + martial arts things was something I'd been playing around with in homebrew before I ever even knew Avatar was a thing. It was something I thought was a super original idea for and eastern themed class to help it work around the limitations of being bound to a specific element. Still, if it draws in the airbender crowd and provides a fun play experience, I'm going to chalk that up as a win.

The Vedist (derived from Ayurveda), will probably not have Collective as a native class feature, but I think it'd be pretty hard to justify not having some archetypes or PrCs that blended elements of the Vedist and Vitalist.

Pharaoh, as I plan on doing him, is probably going to require too many deeply integrated parts to be a PrC, and while the various class elements will have a lot of inspiration from Path of War, I want him to do the things he does right out of the gate. There's a decent possibility that I'll be writing up an original discipline for him that initiators with an Essence pool can gain access to, but I haven't sat down and mapped enough of it out to say for sure yet.

Basically, if I were to describe the six classes in short synopses they'd be something like this:

Vizier - Cunning counselor and and canny magic user, master of veils.
Guru - Wise traveler and philosopher, specializes in non-lethal techniques.
Daevic - Charismatic host to a powerful akashic entity, beast on the battlefield.
Tatvaist - Master of his chosen element who draws martial inspiration from its properties.
Vedist - Canny healer who risks tainting his own life force to guard and restore his allies.
Pharaoh - A living god whose overflowing life energy is his greatest weapon.

Prime32

2014-07-17, 04:09 PM

The Tatvaist is going to be something of a classic elementalist, selecting a primary element that he gains mastery of. Each element will also be associated with a series of Style feats, giving the Tatvaist unique combat options and a wider array of techniques for participating in challenging combats beyond just powering through resistances to his chosen element. Each element will have an array of scaling "tools" tied in to their associated element that they can empower and improve upon through Essence investment.So could a Tatvaist walk up to a torch, stick his hands into it and bind the flames to his hands chakra (thereby extinguishing the torch and giving him fiery punches for the day)? If not, maybe an archetype that doesn't specialise in an element, but can "catch" any elemental attack aimed against him and turn them into pseudo-veils that temporarily attune him to that element?

The Pharaoh is purely conceptual at this point, but I have a really good idea of what I want to do with it. I want the Pharaoh to embody some ideas we've seen in psionics, Path of War, and Akashic Mysteries, blending them together into a class that just plays like pure awesome. The basic design layout would be this:
The core Pharaoh gains certain bonuses just for having an Essence pool (or maybe has a special internalized receptacle he can invest into), giving him things like natural armor, temp hp, bonuses to certain skills, etc. The Pharaoh also learns special "Akashic Maneuvers" that he can activate by taking Essence Burn; these may use the standard maneuver format already presented in Path of War, or they may end up being a more uniquely formatted type of ability. The key though, is that instead of them being expended when used, that Essence Burn function is going to make using your powers a bit more like a psion's power points, where you just know all of your abilities and you can choose to do twenty Disruption Spears to counter enemy spellcasting (draining your Essence pool and possibly losing some of your static bonuses as you do), or use a mix of your Akashic Maneuvers and keep some of your Essence in reserve to shore up your survivability.I... don't like this. There are already spells/powers that involve attacks, swift-action spells that last 1 round, and immediate-action spells that work defensively. The only thing that separates these spells/powers from maneuvers is that the former draw on a limited pool of energy, while the latter are unlimited-use but require you to be in the right position to use them properly. A maneuver that's powered like a spell is just a spell.

I'd prefer some mechanic where you get bonus essence based on your current number of readied maneuvers, which goes down as you expend them (or, for something less prone to abuse, you count as having X more essence invested in that special internal receptacle, up to your normal limit). Basically you're powered up by maintaining your balance and tactical advantage. Maybe coupled with a powerful refresh mechanic that inflicts essence burn.
I mean, that or just go for the "more uniquely formatted" thing, but using actual manuevers would open up things like Martial Traditions for way more variety.

JusticeZero

2014-07-17, 04:24 PM

The Vedist (derived from Ayurveda), will probably not have Collective as a native class feature, but I think it'd be pretty hard to justify not having some archetypes or PrCs that blended elements of the Vedist and Vitalist.I'm sure that a lot of inspiration can move that way. The Collective is a targeting technique that I find distinguishes the Vitalist and Tactician though, and I don't think that it needs to be copied straight. I'd imagine something more like absorbing things into some sort of buffer or veil slots or whatever, and shoving them into something else, or alternately pushing veils onto others that can resist and cure conditions in those who receive them, then exploding those veils traitorously on enemies.

Ssalarn

2014-07-17, 04:33 PM

I'd really prefer to set it up in such a way that we can create a couple disciplines for the Pharaoh and have one standardized set of rules that says "Here's how akashic maneuvers work". I like Essence burn as the primary function of activating akashic maneuvers, both because thematically it fits the idea of expending big surges of your Essence for a flashy yet costly effect, and because it can be easily transferred over to other classes, archetypes, PrCs, etc. A sobek Warlord who picks up a couple akashic maneuvers via feats should be able to look directly to the rules on akashic maneuvers and know how to use them, and it should function the same way for him as it does for the Pharaoh so players don't have to relearn how to use akashic maneuvers with every character.

The difference is that Essence is precious; these aren't power points, and though they renew, when you activate an akashic maneuver that's going to be a carefully considered choice because the cost isn't a mild ding to action economy, it's an incremental decrease in your total capabilities. A Wizard who burns through all his 9th level spells is still a 20 level caster whose base abilities and lower level spells have scaled accordingly; a veilweaver or other akashic user who burns all their Essence is back at square 1.

I also like the idea of the Pharaoh's abilities blurring the line between martial technique and spell; these are the characters that are supposed to be able to convey the impression that they are living deities and the source of their own incredible power.

Regardless, these guys are a still probably a month or more away from seeing any playtesting with a lot of other things lined up in front of them for attention, so it's good to hear what people are thinking of the ideas while they're still gestating.

So could a Tatvaist walk up to a torch, stick his hands into it and bind the flames to his hands chakra (thereby extinguishing the torch and giving him fiery punches for the day)? If not, maybe an archetype that doesn't specialise in an element, but can "catch" any elemental attack aimed against him and turn them into pseudo-veils that temporarily attune him to that element?

Being able to co-opt their chosen element out of their surroundings and turn it to their purposes would be a big part of the Tatvaist, yes. I think an option that allowed him to flow through different elements reactively adopting them as his chosen element is probably something more likely to see a PrC than an archetype, but I'll have a better idea once we get to playtesting the new classes. Gotta finish up the first batch!

squiggit

2014-07-17, 04:34 PM

I want to play a Pharaoh already. Hurry up!

PsyBomb

2014-07-17, 05:46 PM

Ssalarn, I think I might have a solution for the Pharaoh problem. Give them a unique Discipline, that is simple, but make those maneuvers mostly have as a special effect that they increase your Essence pool by one each WHILE READIED. The Pharaoh itself could have a low-progression personal pool, gain a couple (I'm thinking 4-ish) of free Shape Veil feats, and have that internal investment ability that gives them the bonuses you described earlier. I haven't read Path of War yet, but you could make the Pharaoh recovery method relatively quick, such that they could reasonably expect to use a given maneuver every other round (say, a Swift action to set one up, which becomes ready the next turn).

End result is that the Maneuvers end up costing you effective essence pool when expended, and recovering them has the real price of costing your ability to reallocate the next turn.

Anyway, back to the Guru! I'm through the Veils section of the guide, almost ready to put up the V0.5 link. The idea last time was to use it for power-level input before it went to PDF, Guru will be ready to show in time to actually do that for this one.

stack

2014-07-17, 06:46 PM

I had expected to get time to build a few test characters to compare a wrath (natural attack focused) daevic to the aegis archetype to the aegis (aberrant) to see how they looked at a few different levels. Figured they where a good comparison for natural attack builds. Unfortunately the trip has not provided the voluminous time anticipated, so that will not be happening. Straight aegis vs archetype vs wrath (justice) would be good too. But not from me today.

The other three classes sound interesting, especially the elementalist one. I've been trying to help out on the channeling update on DSP's site, but it seems to be going slowly, this class may end up better serving what I would like to see anyhow. Cool.

Ssalarn

2014-07-18, 03:44 PM

Chris and I were going over a few things for upcoming releases and I thought I'd pose a question to you: do you think the Pharaoh would scratch your itch for some Akashic/Initiator crossover action, or would you like a bit more? We're trying to determine whether this is something that could be it's own stand-alone supplement, or if it's better presented on a case by case basis as we work on our various projects moving forward. We're also discussing doing some alternate classes (like the Ninja or Samurai are to the Rogue and Cavalier) to incorporate the elements. What might you guys like to see from something like that?

Shinken

2014-07-18, 05:29 PM

stack

2014-07-19, 01:05 PM

malonkey1

2014-07-19, 01:21 PM

So a Tatvaist would be doing things like investing essence to summon elementals (more summoning options for the system would be nice), or into the ground/air for difficult terrain, etc?

For fire, seems like you could take essence burn to blast, then extinguish fires to recover it. Make abilities that set enemies on fire more valuable.

That sounds pretty interesting.

What about a class that invests Essence into an ally to give temporary Eidolon evolutions? (Give the Fighter Pounce, give the Rogue Invisibility as an SLA, give the Necromancer's zombies Channel Resistance, etc.)

stack

2014-07-19, 01:32 PM

That sounds pretty interesting.

What about a class that invests Essence into an ally to give temporary Eidolon evolutions? (Give the Fighter Pounce, give the Rogue Invisibility as an SLA, give the Necromancer's zombies Channel Resistance, etc.)

Ooh, I don't know where it would fit but I like it! There is already a summoner archetype though...and an aegis one too. Not sure if they will want to make multiple for a class. Buffing the entire party with essence...maybe a vizier archetype? I have thought a bard that invests essence to buff would be cool, evictions would be a stretch though.

PsyBomb

2014-07-19, 04:16 PM

Guru guide V0.5 is up, at https://docs.google.com/document/d/1oSSJqPPNSfOQvNM0H2p9Aqeu2kejSRoujzJzU0gwOdM/edit?usp=sharing

I hope it helps, both for testing and development. I'll be starting a few build stubs soon.

EDIT: Getting started on the Daevic guide as well, though you never did post the Desire abilities for us to review. Low priority at the moment, still focusing on Guru.

PsyBomb

2014-07-22, 09:38 PM

Ok, it's been a while and I have a Daevic question.

A Daevic is forced to shape half their veils from the Passion list... but I'm assuming that they are able to shape Passion veils in their free slots. If they should choose to do so, do these extras also benefit from Essence invested in their Passion?

For example, Kali, a level-12 Wrath Daevic of Vengeance, shapes 3+3 veils per day. Her three Pasison Veils are Wrathful Claws, Sea Drake's Talons, and Armbands of the Irked Elephant. If she chooses to form the Horns of the Minotaur as well, would they also get their essence from the Passion bond, despite not being in one of the forced slots? As currently worded, it could be interpreted either way.

In addition, although Passion Veils are not eligible for Expanded Capacity, is the Passion itself eligible for it?

Just trying to find potential break-points.

As for the Guru, still going through DPR sims on various builds. Gamla Akasins are pretty nice, especially with a 2-level dip of AkWar. having 15-ft threat radius from level one is pretty sick, actually, and not something I've seen done outside of a whip.

stack

2014-07-23, 10:19 AM

Wrath daevic, do the bonus attacks for both vengeance and justice apply to overruns? Overruns aren't mentioned in all instances. Might need some rewording.

Seems like bullrush will see more use anyhow, since few daevic's will have the feats to max both.

Ssalarn

2014-07-24, 07:17 PM

Ssalarn

2014-07-24, 07:19 PM

stack

2014-07-24, 09:17 PM

Ssalarn

2014-07-24, 09:33 PM

So currently dominion's bonus only applies if the shield is used as an off-hand attack, which strongly encourages light shields instead of taking a heavy shield and a light blade. Is this intentional?

Initially yeah, but I'll take another look at it when I sit down to get the updates finished and make sure I still feel like that's necessary. It was initially meant to give you a kind of freebie Shield Master effect.

PsyBomb

2014-07-25, 07:02 AM

Thanks for clarifying those. It lets me ignore a couple of REALLY cheesy builds I was almost done with (12d4 energy at level 7 is still fun). Although, your comments here just had me looking at a sword-and-board WRATH Daevic (yes, really, though it's kinda wonky), which is just hilarious. Unlike previous classes, I already have four build stubs going on this one. The Passions really give a TON of variety to it!

Justice Striker, Vengeance Pounce, Justice Shield-charger, Tyranny Intimidater...

And trust me, I can understand brutal weeks. Glad to hear you're alright

stack

2014-07-25, 07:37 AM

Initially yeah, but I'll take another look at it when I sit down to get the updates finished and make sure I still feel like that's necessary. It was initially meant to give you a kind of freebie Shield Master effect.

Glad it's under consideration. It would be nice for each passion to support two combat styles. Dual wielding with a light shield is pretty narrow and locks you into having very high dex for the ridiculous feat taxes the style imposes. Not getting much use out of the full plate if you qualify for improved two weapon fighting.

The feat tax is a systematic problem not a class one though. Not sure if it should be addressed in the class. Maybe a provision that you don't have to meet the dex requirement? Other wise it's light armor and agile bashing shields eating all your cash. Makes throwing shield more viable though.

You seem to be good at making lesser used mechanics work in fun ways, so I'm confident it will work out.

I wonder if wrath-vengeance should be wrath-fury, leaving the vengeance name for a future option?

Ssalarn

2014-07-25, 04:37 PM

Glad it's under consideration. It would be nice for each passion to support two combat styles. Dual wielding with a light shield is pretty narrow and locks you into having very high dex for the ridiculous feat taxes the style imposes. Not getting much use out of the full plate if you qualify for improved two weapon fighting.

The feat tax is a systematic problem not a class one though. Not sure if it should be addressed in the class. Maybe a provision that you don't have to meet the dex requirement? Other wise it's light armor and agile bashing shields eating all your cash. Makes throwing shield more viable though.

You seem to be good at making lesser used mechanics work in fun ways, so I'm confident it will work out.

I wonder if wrath-vengeance should be wrath-fury, leaving the vengeance name for a future option?

Hmmm... I like the idea of Fury. Vengeance could then be saved to attach to a later Passion tree with retributive mechanics Come and Get Me / Robillard's Gambit style... I might make that change. Thanks Stack!

PsyBomb

2014-07-25, 05:56 PM

I rather like the Fury title, too.

Anyway, been doing some Guru DPR sims. What I'm finding is that, at basically all points, a Guru deals MUCH more damage when they have splashed a different class. I am of course only speaking of combat builds, ones that are more sneaky (like my beloved Vanara Vayist) are usually better single-classed.

One sim involved a Gamla Sineater, an early version of which is on page 2 of this thread (it can come online as early as level 2 if you don't mind delaying Piranha Strike). Another was an Akasin, who invested one level into the Akashic Warrior archetype of Fighter.

Basically, the Guru capstone is really, really skippable, so nabbing a bonus feat or good opening class feature is usually advisable.

JusticeZero

2014-07-25, 08:42 PM

.. been doing some Guru DPR sims. What I'm finding is that, at basically all points, a Guru deals MUCH more damage when they have splashed a different class..
What causes the boost in particular? Are they just inherently anemic in a way that just takes a better weapon to overcome, or is it more exotic?

stack

2014-07-25, 08:58 PM

In the daevic guide, make sure to mention that wrath daevic's can have no cha dependence if they just avoid a few veils and that twin veil to get force strike knuckles with wrath claws is vital for wrath-fury natural attack builds. Half giant is nice for justice too, starting up one size on weapons before armory of the conqueror and vital strike is handy.

PsyBomb

2014-07-25, 11:53 PM

What causes the boost in particular? Are they just inherently anemic in a way that just takes a better weapon to overcome, or is it more exotic?

It isn't being inherently anemic, they are pretty good on their own as long as their enemy isn't immune to subdual (think like a rogue that has a WAY easier time setting up SA). It is more that grabbing a trick somewhere pushes them over the top. For example, leading the Sineater build with Deadly Fist 2 lets you get Focused Offense, which is terrifyingly powerful in the hands of a Wis-based Melee class (and incidentally let's you dump strength completely with no drawbacks)

stack

2014-07-26, 06:22 AM

Actually deadly fist gives a blade skill at one, so you might be able to get away with just a single level plus the extra blade skill feat. Great dip for any WIS build.

PsyBomb

2014-07-26, 07:46 AM

Actually deadly fist gives a blade skill at one, so you might be able to get away with just a single level plus the extra blade skill feat. Great dip for any WIS build.

Yeah, but the same build wants to get Piranha Strike, which has Weapon Finesse as a prereq. You can get the Wis part online at 1 with a Guru level at 2 like that, but then PS would come at 5 instead of 3. If you start at 5 and know you are going to 20, you want either 1 or 4 levels of DF (1 lets you keep the last Improved Capacity, 4 gives the fourth iterative attack and a bit extra on Enhancement). Otherwise, 2 is a good number.

EDIT: forgot to respond to this one

In the daevic guide, make sure to mention that wrath daevic's can have no cha dependence if they just avoid a few veils and that twin veil to get force strike knuckles with wrath claws is vital for wrath-fury natural attack builds. Half giant is nice for justice too, starting up one size on weapons before armory of the conqueror and vital strike is handy.

All three Veilweaving Classes have that, actually. They can all safely dump their weaving stat without crippling themselves, given the right choices and purpose. Even a Guru can dump Wis, if he so chooses, though this will limit his combat options. The Vizier guide has one of its three builds where Int is really not used, and that one build is actually its highest theoretical DPR setup (Rapid Shot Hand Cannons with Wrist-Bound Storm Gauntlets)

stack

2014-07-27, 11:42 AM

Honestly, I'm not too keen on grabbing pirhana strike, especially not early at the cost of a useless feat (weapon finesse, useless to this build). There are enough Akashic feats to fill the early levels and you already have a good source of bonus damage, especially with veils like force strike knuckles, that I would rather shore up my essence and maybe grab off list veils than worry about pirhana strike. But I'm not overly keen on taking to hit penalties on a medium bab chassis anyhow, so I wouldn't rate I that highly to begin with. I know the point is boosting your damage with chakra power, but there are other ways to boost damage with essence at lower levels, I wouldn't expect them to be capped out for a good long while, though I will admit to not having had a chance to run a build yet, sadly.

Ssalarn

2014-07-28, 03:15 PM

Update coming this evening guys, including the long awaited revised Desire Passion for the Daevic! Since I know you all probably can't wait to get your hands on it until I have a chance to post it up tonight, here's a little sneak preview:

Desire: Daevas of Desire seek out servants whose lust for physical pleasures burns within them with an all-consuming ferocity. Wild hedonists, passionate lovers, men and women who make their living or spend their gold in houses of ill repute, even drug addicts and gluttons have all been known to attract the attention of daevas of this Passion. A Daevic who selects this Passion is almost never of Lawful alignment as their driving needs usually consume any consideration they might have for rules or codes.
Passion Veils: Bangles of the Jealous Seductress, Courtesan’s Cloak, Daevic Aspect, Embrace of the Old Ones, Essence of the Succubus, Heartsblood Caress, Immaculate Touch, Lover’s Tread, Waistband of the Wealthy
Skills: Bluff, Sleight of Hand, Stealth
• Starting at 3rd level, the daevic gains a particular facility for utilizing weapons that emphasize her intimate nature. She gains Weapon Focus in a single weapon from the Fighter’s Close Weapons Group. At 6th level, she gains Weapon Specialization for the chosen weapon. At 11th level she gains Greater Weapon Focus with the selected weapon, and at 16th level she gains Greater Weapon Specialization.
• At 6th level the possessing daeva begins to transform and adopt an affinity for a particular aspect of Dominion. Choose one of the following aspects:

Love: Daevics of love inevitably attract devoted followers or lovers. The Daevic gains the companionship of a paramour, a devoted companion who is two or more levels lower than yourself. The paramour should be equipped with gear appropriate for its level (see Creating NPCs). A paramour can be of any race or class. Some monstrous creatures known for mating or bonding with humanoids, such as dragons, may also make suitable paramours, but such creatures should never have a CR greater than the daevic’s level -3. The paramour does not gain experience itself, but gains a level each time the daevic does. The daevic may replace a slain paramour after 1 week of mourning by seeking out a new companion, or may replace a current paramour by cutting ties with the current one over that same period; note that a jilted lover who discovers they have been replaced may seek revenge for the slight depending on their nature.
Lust: Daevics who follow the path of lust often lack the commitment necessary to form a long term bond with a sentient being, but this makes them no less possessive of what they consider theirs. At 6th level the daevic may spend a standard action to grant either his wielded weapon the Called weapon enhancement, or his worn armor the Adhesive enhancement. At 11th level he may grant both of these abilities simultaneously, and at 16th level he may add the Spellstealing ability to his wielded weapon and the Improved Shadow ability to his armor in addition to the standard enhancements. The daevic may use this ability a number of times per day equal to his Charisma bonus (minimum 1), and its effects last for 1 hour per class level. The daevic may not have more than 1 instance of this ability active at a time, and the enhancements fade from the weapon and armor if they leave his possession for more than 1 minute.

Note that I'm not married to Lust's abilities right now.

You may notice that Desire mentions a couple new veils as well....

Ssalarn

2014-07-28, 04:39 PM

PsyBomb

2014-07-28, 05:08 PM

So, I'm not a big fan of Lust and I'm already getting pretty lackluster feedback, so what would you guys think if we did something like this:

What if we played around with exhaustion or fatigue? Like, we give her a couple different native ways of gaining the exhausted or fatigued condition (like all-night sexcapades, or converting drug and/or poison penalties into fatigue and exhaustion), and then we give her a scaling special ability that kicks in while exhausted, like the ability to ignore damage or shunt it into a delayed pool and gain a bonus to the damage they deal equal to their pool, kind of similar to the old Bo9S Crusader?

That could also open up some room for some really interesting Barbarian/Daevic multiclass combos. Instead of rage cycling, you intentionally end your Rage and shunt damage into your delayed pool so you can drop some Hail Mary hurt on the enemy.

I think, rather than Lust, you should go for something like Avarice. This would be the one more focused on Feint and Steal (which was in the previous version of the document), and could still use the Spellstealing enchantment idea. Also happens to encompass a much different aspect of Desire, since Love and Lust can overlap in some cases.

Love's ability can also get dangerous quick, since it's basically a Leadership Cohort and suffers from needing DM fiat to keep in check. You probably want to place certain limits on it to keep your Daevic from having the bigger abuses following him around (a captive full-caster only two levels behind you will ALWAYS be powerfully relevant).

Also miss the ability to focus at range, but we do have Vizier and certain Gurus for that. Close weapon group really isn't great, either, since anyone who is weapon-focused would want to be in Justice or one of the Dominance passions. Perhaps something more skill-focused, or else emphasize the surprise aspect instead of numerical attack bonuses. I'll do something more thorough once I get to my home computer.

Ssalarn

2014-07-28, 05:14 PM

I think, rather than Lust, you should go for something like Avarice. This would be the one more focused on Feint and Steal (which was in the previous version of the document), and could still use the Spellstealing enchantment idea. Also happens to encompass a much different aspect of Desire, since Love and Lust can overlap in some cases.

Love's ability can also get dangerous quick, since it's basically a Leadership Cohort and suffers from needing DM fiat to keep in check. You probably want to place certain limits on it to keep your Daevic from having the bigger abuses following him around (a captive full-caster only two levels behind you will ALWAYS be powerfully relevant).

Also miss the ability to focus at range, but we do have Vizier and certain Gurus for that. Close weapon group really isn't great, either, since anyone who is weapon-focused would want to be in Justice or one of the Dominance passions. Perhaps something more skill-focused, or else emphasize the surprise aspect instead of numerical attack bonuses. I'll do something more thorough once I get to my home computer.

Thanks for the feedback sir! I was thinking about adding a ranged option so it's "Pick A (close) or B (ranged)". Also, I am not opposed to the idea of Avarice as the option, I really like that.

PsyBomb

2014-07-28, 06:17 PM

Thanks for the feedback sir! I was thinking about adding a ranged option so it's "Pick A (close) or B (ranged)". Also, I am not opposed to the idea of Avarice as the option, I really like that.

With the ability to choose either Ranged or Close, we can extrapolate some things.

Love will likely use Ranged combat, with their Paramour keeping enemies off of them. The bonus feats will help keep damage up, and they'd use their regular ones to flesh out the ranged style (not to mention Daevic Aspect (Desire) emphasizes this both in Bonus and Bind).

Avarice, therefore, should use the Close weapon group. Bonuses to Feint and Disarm (and likely against those you've succeeded in this against), removing penalties for weapon size on these checks as well. If it can also support your DC-based veils, it'll be the only one of the six that does so (and will also utilize the other part of Daevic Aspect).

Looking forward to the new Veils as well. Depending on the slot, they may affect the other classes.

stack

2014-07-28, 07:27 PM

Second the concerns on leadership and definitely need something else for lust. The avarice ideas above sound promising. I had also though of gluttony, not sure on the mechanics beyond a bite attack and maybe swallow whole down the line. Stealing or eating enemies buffs would be cool. Almost becomes it's own passion now that I think about it.

Unless daevic aspect has changed, a ranged option is essential since it grants a ranged attack bonus. What other daevic will touch handcannons?

For avarice, would making the steal maneuver more useful be a good route? Dirty trick would work for something but not avarice. Dirty trick and sunder for jealousy?

Anyhow, I had desire pegged more ranged/castery than close combat, given some of the veils availible.

Ssalarn

2014-07-28, 11:17 PM

Updates posted guys, including preliminary Desire Passion for the Daevic (I haven't had time to update the Lust entry yet, but just be aware that that will be changing) and two new Daevic veils, Heartsblood Caress and Lover's Tread. We had some minor adjustments made to the Dark Lord's Ring of Essence Binding, and the Chakra Power feat no longer has a Strength component in the prereqs.

The Contemplation ability of the psionic archetypes has been modified to conform more tightly with the golden rule of psionics.

In addition to Lust being updated (or possibly exchanged in its entirety for Avarice) the next update will include verbage preventing stacking Paramour and the Leadership feat.

Anlashok

2014-07-28, 11:27 PM

Ssalarn

2014-07-28, 11:51 PM

The daevic feels kind of empty to me right now at higher levels. New Chakras and Veils are super cool, but your last class feature before your capstone shows up at level 6. Everything else is +1s to X or Y. Compare with say, Guru, who gains a new toy every 3 levels or so.

I suppose there's Blood Bond at 12, but that doesn't really change the point either.

Duly noted. I've got you logged in the feedback spreadsheet and I'll keep an eye on that and see how the rest of the community feels. Is there anything in particular that would make you feel happier about the progression? What if we added a bonus akashic feat to the Passion bonus options? Too little?

Anlashok

2014-07-29, 01:44 AM

Duly noted. I've got you logged in the feedback spreadsheet and I'll keep an eye on that and see how the rest of the community feels. Is there anything in particular that would make you feel happier about the progression? What if we added a bonus akashic feat to the Passion bonus options? Too little?

I'm not a huge fan of bonus feats but they would help fill it out. The big problem I have is just the sheer number of +1 or +2s as you progress.

Ideally (admittedly not likely) the paths themselves would get some progression. It feels to me like sort of a letdown when you hit level 6, get to pick your path's specialization... and that's the end of it.

Thematically it feels like a bit of a headscratcher too, after all the whole class is built around having this spirit bound to you and deriving your power from it, not having its abilities continue to expand past early game feels a bit odd given that.

Also even though I was complaining about stuff before level 20, I miss path based capstones.

Mind you this doesn't mean the class isn't fun. I loved playing Tyranny in my last game and I'm gonna try Love in a one-shot tomorrow. Veilweaving obviously gives the class a lot to do even when the chassis itself isn't getting a ton of new stuff.

squiggit

2014-07-29, 02:04 AM

Probably late to the party but I love the Guru. The class name and the thought it was just gonna be a not-****ty Soulborn turned me off for a while, but after playing around with it... it's pretty damn awesome.

Do wish there was a more BFC themed Philosophy to play up that angle a bit more, but that doesn't really take away from how cool the class is on its own.

Or a gunslinger guru philosophy.

Also I love the sound of the Pharaoh. Just make sure however you end up conceptualizing them that Sobeks are at least blue for them.

Psyren

2014-07-29, 08:32 AM

Update eh? All right, I'll revisit my earlier comments, focusing on the more important/ambiguous ones.

Excellent, it looks like many of my comments were incorporated, thanks! There are still some areas that aren't clear though:

Vizier

- Collar of Skilled Instruction: Can this be used to Aid Another In Combat? (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Aid-Another)

- Cuirass of Confidence: It's still not clear whether you can use the Chest bind effect against an enemy's attack who is immune to mind-affecting. I would rule that you can't (as such an enemy would be incapable of caring about your "authority.")

- Dark Lord's Ring of Essence Binding:
- - The action to reanimate a corpse as a zombie is still not specified. (Standard?)
- - As written, the Cairn Wight from the ring bind can still create spawn. I must stress that this is a significant balance problem as any Vizier who reaches level 9 can end up with an entire army of undead at his beck and call for no cost.

- Dreamcatcher: I still think 3 rounds between saves is too short for this bind. Every minute of conversation will result in 3 saving throws, or 180 saving throws per hour!

- Gorget of the Wyrm: It's still not clear when you choose the shape of the breath weapon. (Every time you use it, or when you shape the veil?)

- Stormcaller's Band: This should have the [Air] descriptor.

-Storm Gauntlets: This should have all three descriptors of the damage it deals. ("See text" might be the easiest way to do this.)

Feats:

- Akashic Augmentation: Like Midnight Augmentation from MoI, it is not clear whether this reduction applies each time the power is augmented (more powerful), or to the total cost of the power (less powerful.) For example, if I manifest Astral Construct level IV (normally 7 PP - 1 + 2 + 2 + 2) with 1 essence invested in AA, will the total cost be 4 (1 + [2-1] + [2-1] + [2-1]), or 6 (1 + 2 + 2 + 2 -1)?

- Chakra Strike: I think this should apply to all precision damage, thus allowing things like Favored Enemy and Precise Strike to benefit from it as well as the two abilities listed, and remove the prerequisites.

- Shared Veil: Can this be used with psicrystals? If so, what chakras do they get?

Ssalarn

2014-07-29, 12:00 PM

You're a champ Psyren, I'll get those addressed.

@Squiggit
I'm glad you like the Guru! Frankly, he's kind of my favorite of the three. It may be just that it's early in the morning and I'm already swamped at work, but BFC isn't clicking in my head, can you elaborate (or is it an abbreviation that is going to hit a filter)? We're already getting geared up for a follow up book that will include new Passion options, Philosophies, and Paths, so there's definitely room to explore, even if what you're looking for doesn't make it into the first book. On firearms... I'm not a big fan of firearms as they're currently executed in Pathfinder, however, I do have a project with DSP I'm hoping to start playtesting on around teh same time the Iron Gods AP releases where we'll be addressing firearms Dreamscarred-style, and that might be a great place for supplemental material like Philosophies, martial disciplines, and veils that all incorporate firearms to one degree or another.

@Anlashok
I'll be taking another look at the Daevic over the course of the next week as feedback trickles in, and I think that, if nothing else, we've got room for Passion-based capstones and maybe something that makes the Passion play a more obvious role than just what veils you have access to and what combat style you use.

PsyBomb

2014-07-29, 12:17 PM

Stack has a serious point on his reasoning for the Desire Passion. The two missing themes are Ranged and Save-Based, both of which used to be Desire's big thing. A couple of bonus feats in the progression will help Daevics a LOT, but keep in mind that their miniscule Essence pool means that each of those taken will end up meaning much more than you might think, if only due to the extra essence.

On to the new veils...

Heartsblood Caress: Ehhh... could be decent, but not too much more than that. I assume you don't have to designate yourself as the object of the Lust, but this isn't clear by the way it's written. Blood Bind is pretty good, as soon as you get it this is a potential 3-round SOS as a Move action... if your opponent fails the save, and isn't immune to any of the three descriptors. The big problem is that this is Blood slot, which is ALWAYS going to be crowded. Daevic Essence is the big one, but every Daevic I make takes Twin Veil (Blood) and Shape Soulmeld (Eyes of the Hawkguard) to bind there as well. I give it an overall Orange right now, though this may change later if the class changes around it.

Lover's Tread: Bonus to the Trip maneuver is good, especially for lockdown builds. Landing them on their face with a Charm effect rider on it is also nice to have. I can see this taken in some cases, though they will usually be using polearms or Spiked Chain and so won't really use the Bluff aspect. Rated Yellow for now, though I need to experiment a bit with it. Also isn't clear if the Trip has to succeed in order to attempt a Charm, this needs clarifying.

stack

2014-07-29, 12:20 PM

Does here need to be a clause about targets being immune to the unnatural lust/charm abilities of the new veils for a certain time if they make heir saves? Do they need [enchantment] tags, or is that implied by the other descriptors and he fact they mimic enchantment spells?

I like the new veils, might be powerful without any limit on repeats after saves.

Desire love daevic with desire lust paramore-"go ahead, we'll stay in, let us know how the adventure goes!"

Psyren

2014-07-29, 12:27 PM

BFC = Battlefield Control

Ssalarn

2014-07-29, 12:43 PM

BFC = Battlefield Control

/facepalm

I'm blaming that on the fact that I've got 30 things piled up on my desk and am slightly loopy from the pain-killers and imitrex I had to take for a skull-splitting migraine.

Desire love daevic with desire lust paramore-"go ahead, we'll stay in, let us know how the adventure goes!"

Hah!

Psyren

2014-07-29, 12:49 PM

I'm right there with you man - had my wisdom teeth deleted and now I am hopped up on vicodin and percocet so I can eat. Whee!!!

stack

2014-07-29, 02:46 PM

PsyBomb

2014-07-29, 03:12 PM

So it looks like desire has fairly good control abilities, especially for a full BAB class, but they get shut down hard by immunities to mind affecting. I propose that instead of the close weapons stuff, desire could instead grant a method to bypass these immunities, similar to how a dread gets an aura to bypass fear immunity and can take a feat to allow them to expend focus to bypass immunity mind affecting with their terrors. Maybe an aura, scaling in size, or even a swift action touch attack that allows them to bypass the immunity for CHA mod rounds, piercing kiss or some such.

Also, shouldn't desire give ride as a class skill?

:smallwink:

Stack, that is a GENIUS idea to attach to Avarice, and would support its melee-ish theme while maintaining Caster capability. Make the Avarice have a touch attack which also applies to any Close weapon or successful Steal or Feint. This lowers immunity to Mind-Affecting. Have it also slowly increase your save DCs and give a bonus to Concentration(possibly by half Essence and equal to Essence in bond, respectively), and you're golden.

squiggit

2014-07-29, 03:36 PM

BFC = Battlefield Control

This. I just noticed a lot of the generic class features involve screwing with your opponent's capabilities (chakra disruption, stunning fist, etc) and thought it might be cool to have a philosophy that expands on that. Something that focuses on using essence to hamper an opponent's flow or some sort of dirty fighting roguish thing only... akahshic. The latter I think is a woefully underutilized concept in games like this in general.

But that's just a random idea. Haven't played the daevic enough to comment on that, but having a ranged option for Lust or a save based Passion sounds good.

stack

2014-07-30, 11:22 AM

LEAKED ARTWORK - DESIRE DAEVIC ICONIC
http://www.sinoconcept.com/fichiers/en/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/JessicaRabbit.jpg

Psybomb - if the entire passion is going to lean heavily on mind affecting, I would rather see the ability to circumvent it as a passion ability rather than a sub-set ability. I would also be careful about adding too many more boosts too DC's since daevic aspect and the succubus one (twin veil as needed) potentially means that you can pump your dc's already. Also, wow does desire really eat up the blood slots.

Ssalarn

2014-07-30, 11:39 AM

LEAKED ARTWORK - DESIRE DAEVA ICONIC
http://www.sinoconcept.com/fichiers/en/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/JessicaRabbit.jpg

Psybomb - if the entire passion is going to lean heavily on mind affecting, I would rather see the ability to circumvent it as a passion ability rather than a sub-set ability. I would also be careful about adding too many more boosts too DC's since daevic aspect and the succubus one (twin veil as needed) potentially means that you can pump your dc's already. Also, wow does desire really eat up the blood slots.

Damn it!!! Jeremy assured me that our art team could be relied on for their discretion. All the leaks these days are specifically why I turned down that job at the NSA.....

Anyways guys, I ran a little "promotion" over on the Paizo boards to drum up interest and I figured you guys, who've been helpful and interested all along, probably deserved access to the culmination of that deal as well, so:

As thanks to everyone who has helped contribute to this project, I'm providing live pre-alpha access to our upcoming akashic/initiator hybrid class, the Pharaoh (https://www.dropbox.com/s/y02kz963hij8xpv/The%20Pharaoh.pdf). The pharaoh combines elements of the Path of War project and Akashic Mysteries to create something new and unique. Please note that this is an in development class, and as such may be missing substantial portions of information or mechanics and is subject to change. We just wanted to give you a look "under the hood" of some of what we've got coming up in the pipeline. Enjoy!

PsyBomb

2014-07-30, 01:22 PM

Ooooo... the Pharaoh is nice and shiny. Absurdly tough, too, and highly suited to the Sobek. I like it.

Once it comes out, I'll probably be picking up Path of War, too, if only to be able to use the rest of the disciplines. Only one comment on it for now, you need to make the Empty Pyramid techniques WORTH burning Essence for, or else have class abilities key off of them. If not, then nobody will use them, since you have so many things giving you bonuses from your current pool. Coming from a Sobek, by level 20 you can have a pool of 43 easily (30+1(R)+2(EE)+3(CSaves)+1(CPow)+1(EoR)+5(Amp)), totalling 86 Temp HP (probably 86 more real from Essence of the Immortal), +14 natural Armor, +10 Will, and 21 elemental resistance. Of this pool of 43, we have accounted for 29 in various recepticles, which means you also have +4 to all saves, +4 damage on any attack using Chakra Power, buffed Bite, and some minor out-of-combat healing (~50 HP/day). You need to make the Essence Burn worth losing this kind of benefit for.

stack

2014-07-30, 01:52 PM

Ssalarn

2014-07-30, 02:02 PM

Yeah, that's my first reaction too. Huge essence pool and plenty of reasons to not burn it, especially when it does its job just fine while invested. How you make it worthwhile AND keep the discipline balanced...tightrope walk on that one.May will end up with truly absurd AC, between armor/high dex, NA, armor+enhancements, and the veils they will likely grab with dips/feats.

Not keen on the 'empty pyramid' name. Solar Ascendent would work except that there is already a 'solar' discipline, so I am short on alternatives (Ascendent Scion?). I believe the names of disciplines are supposed to keep a western sound, which necessitated some naming changes with the initial PoW disciplines.

I think it was less "must sound Western" and more "peeps be bitchin when it sounds Eastern". Frankly, if people don't like non-European materials I'm already fighting an uphill battle. That being said, I'm open to change on Empty Pyramid. I'll be getting the actual mechanics to go along with the maneuvers posted in the near future, and I'm contemplating making some changes so that there's more investment and less auto-gain in the abilities, if for no other reason than to encourage people to actually use Empty Pyramid without it being completely insane. I may shift things so that the individual class features are all valid Essence receptacles (with appropriate Essence capacity bumps) and Empty Pyramid allows you to invest Essence into your maneuvers when you prepare them locking it until the maneuver is expended, at which point it's burned and you recover it back into your main pool by the means already presented.

stack

2014-07-30, 02:14 PM

PsyBomb

2014-07-30, 02:26 PM

I think making the class features essence receptacles is a good idea. As for burn verses locking essence on maneuvers I guess I can't say yet. Having maneuvers scale based on invested essence sounds like a good idea, but would make it functionally different from other PoW disciplines. Maybe prepping and executing the maneuvers normally, but give them an augment for either burning or investing essence?

As for the name, something keeping with the general theme of the product would be fine by me; empty pyramid just kinda clanged off my ear though.

Having the class abilities be Essence receptacles (scaled appropriately, of course) works out well. Deific Stamina, Unbroken Flesh, Indomitable Spirit, Elemental Intrangience, and Bonded Manifestation makes for 5 native recepticles, for 24 Essence used. If you up the capacity of the class features by 2 each, this leads to slightly more receptacle space overall than there is Essence to put there (which is ideal, IMHO), not counting Burn. If this change is made, you don't need to worry about adjusting the Burn/Benefit as much, since players can (and should) choose which receptacles can be emptied to fuel combat.

I personally like the name "Empty Pyramid", since this is an Egyptian-themed class. It either implies that he was buried and rose again, or else his nobility means that one is waiting for him when he dies.