Todays Popular Music hatered.

[Nightmarenny]

Today in this and alot of other forum I've noticed a very large amount of bands hated by a large amount of the people seemingly only because they are popular. Why is that?

Fall Out Boy
Panic? at the Disco
Green Day


So on. Why is that? I don't expect everybody to like them. No one likes all of the past really popular bands. Beatles, Metalica,Bowie Rolling Stones Zeplin. Even the greatest bands have those that simply dislike them. Thats understandable. What I don't understand is the personal stake people seem to have about it. On this forum I've seen people go out of their way to insult these bands when the topic has anything to do with music.
I've heard people describe some of the lyrics as so catchy and melodic they must be sell-outs. What does that even mean? I've seen people speak about the simplicity of their songs in disgust when many bands(Beatles, Metallica) are just as simple alot of the time and still were great.`
So then I ask you gentles of the forum would you please explain the hate before I go insane?

[J_Muller]

Well, I'm not exactly totally qualified to respond, but here we go:

I'm kind of meh about Panic! At The Disco, so we'll skip them.

Green Day is kind of hit-and-miss. I really liked Good Riddance and Holiday, but not as many of their other songs.

Fall Out Boy is just too emo for me, and many others.

[Nightmarenny]

Well, I'm not exactly totally qualified to respond, but here we go:

I'm kind of meh about Panic! At The Disco, so we'll skip them.

Green Day is kind of hit-and-miss. I really liked Good Riddance and Holiday, but not as many of their other songs.

Fall Out Boy is just too emo for me, and many others.
And thats fine. I'm fine with people that simply can't get into music. No one will ever agree on wether any one band is good or not.

What confuses me is the shear hatered alot of people have for them. As if they shouldn't be aloud to exist and that anyone that listins to them is somehow wrong for liking them.

[sethdarkwater]

Personally if they go to great lengths to prove they hate them I always find jealousy (even if its just a smiggen) as the root cause. My friends in particular (female) hated hilary duff as a singer just because they felt they could sing better than her. So they would make death to Hillary posters. Still friends, and thank god it was a faze. Oh and David Bowie Rocks, half the time anyway.

[Amotis]

Panic? At The Disco made me laugh :D

Depends on what you're asking. Are you asking specifically about those three bands or about popular music in general? Like I've said may times about hating a entire genre; it's stupid. Genres are far too wide to hate with any source of logic.

[sethdarkwater]

Ps. I don't like her music either.

[Amotis]

Oh...and me nitpicking; Popular is usually meant to mean "anything besides classical (and it's subgenres) music." There's also mainstream music (which I think you're talking about) and pop music (which is using pop chords and chord progressions, lyrics, etc). Yeah, I've complained about the misuse of terms everywhere...has anyone listened? No...but I don't mind, I just keep saying it to keep my sanity.

[Nightmarenny]

Panic? At The Disco made me laugh :D

Depends on what you're asking. Are you asking specifically about those three bands or about popular music in general? Like I've said may times about hating a entire genre; it's stupid. Genres are far too wide to hate with any source of logic.
Right mainstream. Sorry slip of the tounge. I'm talking mostly about band of that Genre(or two genres) with those three just being the ones that came to mind.

[Erloas]

I think part of it is that subcultures always tend to like their subculture and don't mind similiar subcultures but hate the "mainstream" culture that they went to the subculture to avoid. The issue comes in that now the shear number of subcultures outnumbers the mainstream. There is also some point that to belong to a subculture you have to have some reason to do it, to end up in "mainstream" you just have to not avoid it, so a lot of mainstream culture is passive about what they like while the subcultures are more active and vocal about what they like and don't like.
At the same time those people in those subcultures tend to like things more just because they are tied in with the subculture and if they came upon it without knowing anything about it their reactions would be different.
Then there is the point that subcultures a defined as much by what they don't like as what they do like. Why be a subculture if what you like is mainstream? So to define the subculture you pick something big and well known in the mainstream and choose to dislike it to define why you aren't mainstream. It does no good to dislike something no one knows about.

There are of course exceptions to everything, but that is generally what it is.

Then we get the point that people like to complain. If someone kind of likes something they aren't going to say much of anything about it, the only people that will say anything are those that love it and anyone that dislikes it or hates it. And once a decent number of people claim to hate something everyone that is meh or just likes it a little bit are much less likely to say anything about it.


Personally I don't belong to any subculture or to mainstream, I may very well fit into one of them but if so I don't know it. So I feel free to hate everything I want to (its cheaper that way).

[Azrael]

People hate Green Day?

Jeesh, kids these days. Dookie came out when I was in the 6th grade as a (practically) genre-redefining album. People just have no respect.

:smallbiggrin:

[Mr Croup]

People hate Green Day?

Jeesh, kids these days. Dookie came out when I was in the 6th grade as a (practically) genre-redefining album. People just have no respect.

:smallbiggrin:

I've got to say that I've always been in the camp of disliking Green Day, and we're the same age, it would appear, so it's not just the "youth of today." I've never gone in much for pop punk and Green Day in particular has always rubbed me the wrong way. I will say that I don't feel strongly enough about them to say that I actually hate them though.

In broader terms, I think that Erloas really touched on the heart of the issue. Most subcultures are at least partly defined by their distaste, opposition, or rivalry with another social group, whether that be another subculture or the status quo. That coupled with the fact that often the most vocal individuals on a topic are those with the most extreme or fervent view, that's often the opinions you will encounter, especially in a medium like an internet forum.

Heap on top of those issues the fact that defining music genres is a muddy area with definitions of terms and classifications varying between individuals, and it just gets more complicated.

[Piedmon_Sama]

I can explain this one easily.

All three of the bands you mentioned have woken me up through basically an entire Spring and Summer when my sister would haul her fat ass to the computer down in the basement (where I normally sleep) and start blasting Greenday and that other crap at full volume at 8:00 IN THE MORNING.

That was how I learned it was my destiny--my holy mission--to track down and violently murder Greenday.

But seriously, I just hate bands who have a singer who sounds like he hasn't done with puberty yet.

[talsine]

I'll start this witha note that the music i listen to is the kind of music you never hear on the radio. With that in mind...

I like Greenday, and i always have. Everything from Dookie forward (i'm man enough to admit thats when i started to lsiten to them) has been consistantly good, though American Idiot is a step back for them musicaly. Its not bad, its just, like going back and trying to recapture your youth, its behind you, leave it alone and continue to explore. If the new kids don't like it, thats on them.

As for Panic and Fallout boy, they make the kind of music that makes me turn off the radio. Its jsut not my thing, it sounds so, well, fake isn't quite the word but its the one i will use since its all that will come to mind. They try to hard to get a certain sound, and it just comes across as disengenious and that bothers me. It also doesn't hurt that everytime i play my music for more than 10 minutes my female roomate feels compelled to tell me to turn it off or play something we can all listen to, and then turns Panic on as if she just assume that it is the kind of music i want to PvP to in AV. /sigh

[pestilenceawaits]

I think a lot of todays music sounds the same. Most of the bands are pretty cookie cutter I think record companies are afraid to take a chance on any new sounds so they take a band like green day and say hey these guys sold a lot of albums lets sign every act we can that looks and sounds just like them. rinse and repeat with every other genre of music.

[Sewer_Bandito]

I honestly can't tell the difference between the lesser popular Fall Out Boy and Panic! At the Disco songs. The more popular ones I can tell just because I know which band sings which :smalltongue: . This makes one of them the poser (I'm not sure which band came out first) And that annoys me, because one band is almost completely copying the others sound, and trying nothing new, just playing what one band has already proven sells well. That and I find their songs to be repetitve and annoying anyway.

And I like the early green day stuff, and today's stuff from them is alright, just not as good.

[AmoDman]

Fall Out Boy is just too emo for me, and many others.

I hate to be that annoying kid, but Fall Out Boy isn't even close to Emo in any sense of the word. Pop punk, period.

That being said, Fall Out is the only one I listen to on occasion. Panic! ...bleh, they have an interesting sound I might like enough to check out if their lyrics weren't complete sh!t. Green Day? Big meh.

[Ego Slayer]

I had a pretty narrow musical taste no too long ago. I've finally realized what I don't like about it a lot of it. It's too instrumentally heavy, and it all sounds the same. Lyrics, usually a subtle variation of one of their other songs. There are a lot of 'popular' songs that sound pretty good first couple times through, and then get annoying soon after.

[Zephra]

well, I'm (ha ha ha ) a kind of a traditionalist and I like the music they used to have when it was actually pretty, and actually had a tune (I have little experience with popular music, so sorry if i'm wrong) Modern music seems obnoxious to me (don't kill me!)

[Midnight Son]

Can't speak for the other two, but from what I understand, the general feeling on Green Day is that they made one(maybe two) CDs that were somewhat groundbreaking(if that's even possible anymore), then sold out and did stuff that wasn't the same as their first stuff and was more mainstream. My issue with that is several fold.

1. Bands have to change somewhat from CD to CD. If not they may as well just rerelease the original.

2. Whenever a band comes out with something that sounds different and makes a big splash, others copy their style. It then becomes mainstream. Then, since the original band is still doing their stuff, they're suddenly mainstream and "Sold Out".

3. There's a three. I just forgot it at the moment.

All that said, I never liked Green Day, but I have seen many bands that were treated the same; Queensryche anyone?

[Reinforcements]

I hate to be that annoying kid, but Fall Out Boy isn't even close to Emo in any sense of the word. Pop punk, period.

That being said, Fall Out is the only one I listen to on occasion. Panic! ...bleh, they have an interesting sound I might like enough to check out if their lyrics weren't complete sh!t. Green Day? Big meh.
You're really going to tell me that "Sugar We're Going Down" isn't emo (not to mention really creepy)? God, I hate Fallout Boy.

[AmoDman]

You're really going to tell me that "Sugar We're Going Down" isn't emo (not to mention really creepy)? God, I hate Fallout Boy.

Uh, yes, I am. My Chemical Romance, Hawthorne Heights, Coheed & Cambria, etc. = Emo. Fall Out Boy, Panic!, and current Green Day are all forms of pop punk. Fall Out may be Emo influenced pop punk, but no Emo music. People who define Fall Out Boy and others as Emo are essentialy destroying and and every god damn definition the term even has relevant to music.

[Piedmon_Sama]

See, "emo" is a funny word. For some people it actually has a specific definition as a music style. Then for the rest of us it just means "any **** that's whiny and mopy."

Not that songs should never be downbeat. But the whole teenaged suburbanite angst bit is a huge turnoff for me; coupled with a singer who sounds like he's just been dumped right before the 8th Grade Harvest Dance, and it drives me out of the room like a bad smell.

And I'm pretty sure I never liked that bouncy kind of punk as typified by Greenday. Always thought it sounded just kind of like, "durr, durr-durr," kind of dumb.

[Amotis]

Emo is acutally a music style. It's derived from emocore, which is from hardcore.

And Coheed and Cambria are pop metal if anything.

[Angela]

I can explain this one easily.

All three of the bands you mentioned have woken me up through basically an entire Spring and Summer when my sister would haul her fat ass to the computer down in the basement (where I normally sleep) and start blasting Greenday and that other crap at full volume at 8:00 IN THE MORNING.

That was how I learned it was my destiny--my holy mission--to track down and violently murder Greenday.

But seriously, I just hate bands who have a singer who sounds like he hasn't done with puberty yet.

I have an incredibly similar reason for detesting Mariah Carey... my little brother is a raving fanboy (walks around singing it, web page in her honour, thinks the rest of us constantly need to here how good and talented she is, etc...)

Back on topic. Popular music, for some reason, just doesn't do it for me anymore (I couldn't tell you the last time I listened to a top 40 station). That said, I enjoy Panic! At the Disco - they're quite catchy, and the lyrics make me laugh...

[Nightmarenny]

You're really going to tell me that "Sugar We're Going Down" isn't emo (not to mention really creepy)? God, I hate Fallout Boy. Suger we're going down isn't emo in any sense of the word. Its a "we wont give up and I know everything will be alright". Song. Listin to the words.

As for the other coments, this is what I'm talking about! Whats with the hatred? The similarities of Fall Out Boy and Panic are NOT because one is a rip-off. Its because they are both from the "Chicago scene" i.e. they have similer influences, are friends and have learned things from each other. Dispite that I think you can eisily tell the diffrence. Fall Out Boy is the diffinition of the middle ground from Melodic more poppy music and Punky style while Panic is very oldschool use's piano and alot of effects and and is more talky in the singing style.

But back to the topic. Again whats with the hatred? You can't use that "afraid to try something differant" because today has the largest set of style at a time. Even if the bands are of a similer style how is it "their" fault? They still had to be good enough to get famous.

[Erloas]

well, I'm (ha ha ha ) a kind of a traditionalist and I like the music they used to have when it was actually pretty, and actually had a tune (I have little experience with popular music, so sorry if i'm wrong) Modern music seems obnoxious to me (don't kill me!)

I completely agree with you. Although I am going to see if there is anything decent and modern that I can find, though my expectations for it are low.
For me the majority of the stuff I hear on the radio (in stores, at work, in other peoples' cars, etc) are either really annoying or tend to give me a headache (not a bad one) within minutes of it being on.

Oh, and even though I don't know if I've ever heard a Fall Out Boy song I still despise them for tainting the good name of the true fallout boy from Fallout 1 and 2.

[Nightmarenny]

well, I'm (ha ha ha ) a kind of a traditionalist and I like the music they used to have when it was actually pretty, and actually had a tune (I have little experience with popular music, so sorry if i'm wrong) Modern music seems obnoxious to me (don't kill me!)
Yes there infact are tunes. Ofcoarse there are.

[Sewer_Bandito]

Yes there infact are tunes. Ofcoarse there are.

You could call Fall Out Boy and P!ATD songs alot of things, but not pretty. And the staticy-sounding guitar chords in the background in a majority of their songs doesn't contribute to making a melody, along with the limited range of the vocalist in a majority of their songs don't work together too well to have much of a tune to them.

[Raistlin1040]

Wel, I love Fall Out Boy and Green day (American Idiot! Dookie! Warning!) but I don't like panic at the disco

[heretic]

I hate Panicatdeathredsnowjumpsuitcaball-americandiscofalloutapparatusboypatrolrejects!. They all have the same annoying girly-man emo sound. IMHO.

[Nightmarenny]

You could call Fall Out Boy and P!ATD songs alot of things, but not pretty. And the staticy-sounding guitar chords in the background in a majority of their songs doesn't contribute to making a melody, along with the limited range of the vocalist in a majority of their songs don't work together too well to have much of a tune to them.
Panic has some of the most complext melodies in music(today though that may not being saying a whole lot) and Fall Out Boy vocalist has been known from going to from low to very high with his voice.
Pretty is more an astetics thing which is why I didn't argue that in my post. Panic well I haven't listened to there music for awhile(I think I will now) but if I remember corectly they have mostly clean-tone compared to FOB's distortion driven static.

[Nightmarenny]

I hate Panicatdeathredsnowjumpsuitcaball-americandiscofalloutapparatusboypatrolrejects!. They all have the same annoying girly-man emo sound. IMHO.
No. That is not something that can be an opinion. Weather someone use's a Falsetto or is emo are facts. Plus you are wrong. Several bands there are rather low pitched. If you really think many of them sound like girls you must know alot of manly girls. Emo as was just mentioned in this thread is a type of music that none of the bands you mentioned belong to. If your going the other(dumb) meaning for emo then you are still wrong as none them are consistantly depressive with every song.

Also those bands don't sound the same.

[Amotis]

Panic has some of the most complext melodies in music and Fall Out Boy vocalist has been known from going to from low to very high with his voice.



Ummm no?

See, I'm fine with the question. I'm not ranting about it and the quality of the bands because you didn't ask whether or not they were good, you asked why everyone hated them. That was answered. Many times. Probably the best by Erloas, but repeated over and over by everyone else. People don't like the music because it just doesn't hit them, it's not their subculture, it's not their thing.

I personally don't like their music because of other things (technical and analyitical). But I'm not stating that because that's not the question. The question is why does the majority of the people dislike it. The majority dislike it not because of their lack of musical talent or cohessiveness as an artistic group, the majority dislike those bands because they don't like that style, culture, sound, look, etc. As explained by a lot of people just posting because they don't like 'em, without reason. Just going back to Erloas' or my answer.

Just...yeah...don't put them as great bands. Because that's besides the question.

[Nightmarenny]

Ummm no?

See, I'm fine with the question. I'm not ranting about it and the quality of the bands because you didn't ask whether or not they were good, you asked why everyone hated them. That was answered. Many times. Probably the best by Erloas, but repeated over and over by everyone else. People don't like the music because it just doesn't hit them, it's not their subculture, it's not their thing.

I personally don't like their music because of other things (technical and analyitical). But I'm not stating that because that's not the question. The question is why does the majority of the people dislike it. The majority dislike it not because of their lack of musical talent or cohessiveness as an artistic group, the majority dislike those bands because they don't like that style, culture, sound, look, etc. As explained by a lot of people just posting because they don't like 'em, without reason. Just going back to Erloas' or my answer.

Just...yeah...don't put them as great bands. Because that's besides the question.
I agree. I only talk about that when others bring it up. I'm admittantly easily brought into an arguement. Look I'm fine with the dislike but not the pure hate. The post like "they all sound the same whinny little girl voice" which is both wrong and not a reason for hate.

[Amotis]

Sure it is. That's what they got from the band and that's why they don't listen to them. You're asking a question of personal opinion, were you expecting anything other then personal opinion?

[Nightmarenny]

Sure it is. That's what they got from the band and that's why they don't listen to them. You're asking a question of personal opinion, were you expecting anything other then personal opinion?
Exept the bands sound nothing like girls. Which is confusing. Also I'm not looking for why the dislike(again) not liking a singers voice is a perfectly reasonable reason to not like them but the hate goes beond that to "They don't deserve to live what is wrong with their fan"

Edit-You'know what? On second thought I know exactly why. I'm sorry for wasting everyones time. Its clear that the answer is just "their people, they have strong opinion over superphicial thing(as do I, as I can see from re-reading my previous posts) I suppose I have a natural tendancies to try to find a better answer when faced with that answer since I honnestly hate that one.

[Amotis]

To you maybe, but you need to look at who you're addressing. Not you.

The majority of people listen to music that fits who they are. Those bands don't fit all people. People reject (sometimes, this is an example) subcultures that arn't theirs. A sort of ethnocentricity. Think of how you think of say...Pop Charts 1950's Pat Boonne Brill Building Bubblegum Crank Out Hits music. Total crap in my opinion. Horrid horrid stuff. But people bought it. Hell, everyone bought it. That's where the huge huge industries of today got their foothold in the markets. But people bought that stuff up. And they liked it.

Get where I'm going?

[Raistlin1040]

What is Pop Charts 1950's Pat Boonne Brill Building Bubblegum Crank Out Hits?

[Nightmarenny]

To you maybe, but you need to look at who you're addressing. Not you.

The majority of people listen to music that fits who they are. Those bands don't fit all people. People reject (sometimes, this is an example) subcultures that arn't theirs. A sort of ethnocentricity. Think of how you think of say...Pop Charts 1950's Pat Boonne Brill Building Bubblegum Crank Out Hits music. Total crap in my opinion. Horrid horrid stuff. But people bought it. Hell, everyone bought it. That's where the huge huge industries of today got their foothold in the markets. But people bought that stuff up. And they liked it.

Get where I'm going?Yes. Its just frustrating to believe someone hates something because its "not their thing". I live in a place where people(atleast the ones I talk to) don't care that much. We all have slightly different tastes but don't hugely care. Someone doesn't like Panic! Ok put on a different band so she not uncomfertible, don't like AC/DC? Thats alittle strange but whatever.
Even with rap(to whom nearly all of us hate) doesn't move us to yell at people for liking it or spend a considerable ammount of time critisizing the genre. Its just wierd that people care that much I suppose.

[Raistlin1040]

Some people just hate certain music with a crazed passion. ((Die evil american rap die!)) Ahem. Sorry 'bout that.

[Amotis]

Exactly what it sounds like.

Kay, history lesson kiddies.

The firsts of rock and roll; Elvis, Carl Perkins, Jerry Lee Lewis, Johnny Cash, Muddy Waters, etc. They got their music out and America took it up. America's youth anyway, the adults hated it. But then, all those artist suddenly disappeared. Got drafted, married their 14 year old cousin, died, went to jail, etc. So now the music industry is without all their top stars. All around the same time

So now the big buisnesses and record companies took over. They started doing this thing called American Bandstand. Where they basically went on the streets, looked for a cute guy, any guy didn't have to have any musical talent, put him on stage, wrong songs for him, and he lip synced. America ate it up. It was something that the whole family could watch, unlike the rockers from before. Teen Idols became rampart. These were guys with little or no talent, didn't write their music, and were basically hired for their looks. The Brill Building was this huge building with cubicles (CUBICLES!) with a piano inside each one of them. Teams of songwriters would sit in there all day and write hits for these teen idols. (Funny thing, all the stuff at that time sounds the same because everyone could hear each other's music because they were only cubicles.)

So basically the only music during this time (besides surf music but that's only in the west) is teen idol, brill building writers, pop chart hits. Songs made to sound like that last hit in hopes of getting another one.

So you can assume how crappy that was.

[Raistlin1040]

Sounds bad for you Americans. But, 30 years later, you'd get pleasure from the BRITISH INVASION! that brought you such artists like Queen, Duran Duran, The Clash, Pink Floyd, and The Who. Yeah we English pretty much rock.

[Nightmarenny]

Exactly what it sounds like.

Kay, history lesson kiddies.

The firsts of rock and roll; Elvis, Carl Perkins, Jerry Lee Lewis, Johnny Cash, Muddy Waters, etc. They got their music out and America took it up. America's youth anyway, the adults hated it. But then, all those artist suddenly disappeared. Got drafted, married their 14 year old cousin, died, went to jail, etc. So now the music industry is without all their top stars. All around the same time

So now the big buisnesses and record companies took over. They started doing this thing called American Bandstand. Where they basically went on the streets, looked for a cute guy, any guy didn't have to have any musical talent, put him on stage, wrong songs for him, and he lip synced. America ate it up. It was something that the whole family could watch, unlike the rockers from before. Teen Idols became rampart. These were guys with little or no talent, didn't write their music, and were basically hired for their looks. The Brill Building was this huge building with cubicles (CUBICLES!) with a piano inside each one of them. Teams of songwriters would sit in there all day and write hits for these teen idols. (Funny thing, all the stuff at that time sounds the same because everyone could hear each other's music because they were only cubicles.)

So basically the only music during this time (besides surf music but that's only in the west) is teen idol, brill building writers, pop chart hits. Songs made to sound like that last hit in hopes of getting another one.

So you can assume how crappy that was.
I'm happy to live in a time where if the music became a product and stopped being art again atleast we have 70 years or so of rock to hold onto.

Incidently who married their 14 year old cousin?

[Piedmon_Sama]

While we're on the subject of killing, you know what kills me? Emo pants. Kids, if you want to wear what are basically tights, that's fine by me. Men have been wearing tights for centuries. But you know what else? They wore tunics over the tights. You know why? NOBODY wanted to see Henry VIII's royal crotch-bulge, seriously. So wear the tights if you must, but please, please, wear a tunic---or at least a doublet--over them. NOBODY wants to see your bobbedy bobbing bulge, OK? Jeez.

[Amotis]

Jerry Lee Lewis.

And bah! You british would be no where without American blues. Seriously, every british band that ever got famous in America were influnced fully by those American blues and country men. As well as those early rockers, like Billy Haley and Buddy Holly. Even the beatles based their name of off Buddy Holly and the Crickets.

[Nightmarenny]

Sounds bad for you Americans. But, 30 years later, you'd get pleasure from the BRITISH INVASION! that brought you such artists like Queen, Duran Duran, The Clash, Pink Floyd, and The Who. Yeah we English pretty much rock.
Yeah and americans only contributed the first ever wave of rockandRoll stars, as well as effectivly creating it by mixing our other self created music forms and then went and made the first Punk bands(Like the Ramones) inspiring the music and clothing of both US and British.

We suck:smallfrown:

[Raistlin1040]

I have a hard time believing the Spice Girls were inspired by American blues. Just my opinion though.

[Nightmarenny]

While we're on the subject of killing, you know what kills me? Emo pants. Kids, if you want to wear what are basically tights, that's fine by me. Men have been wearing tights for centuries. But you know what else? They wore tunics over the tights. You know why? NOBODY wanted to see Henry VIII's royal crotch-bulge, seriously. So wear the tights if you must, but please, please, wear a tunic---or at least a doublet--over them. NOBODY wants to see your bobbedy bobbing bulge, OK? Jeez.
I have yet to were tight pants but if I do you can rest assured a hold it as a personal fasion to wear shirt that go down past the crotch.

[Amotis]

I have a hard time believing the Spice Girls were inspired by American blues. Just my opinion though.

That pop forum they sing with? AABAABAAB? American Blues.

[Raistlin1040]

...Be silent Amotis! No seriously I don't see a resemblance in sound. Maybe in musical theory stuff but not in sound. And what about Queen, Duran Duran, The Clash, Pink Floyd, and The Who?

[Nightmarenny]

I have a hard time believing the Spice Girls were inspired by American blues. Just my opinion though.
One more point for america:smalltongue:

[Nightmarenny]

...Be silent Amotis! No seriously I don't see a resemblance in sound. Maybe in musical theory stuff but not in sound. And what about Queen, Duran Duran, The Clash, Pink Floyd, and The Who?
Well anomtis will answer it better but they are all classified as rock. If nothing else non of those bands would exist if america didn't start it.

edit Crap another double post. This is last time I assume someone will have posted inbetween.

[Amotis]

Sound wise, of course not. But almost all popular (as in everything but classical) is rooted in gypsy or american blues music. Whether it be the chord progressions almost all bands use today, or the 4/8/12 bar things, or the introductions, riffs, the vocal patterns of AAB or AAA, or the instrumental replacement of B, etc. Especially the rythmns! The shuffle beat, the back beat, bo diddley beat, all american blues. All used today all the time.

[Raistlin1040]

Yeah but... damn I can't think of a good thing to say. So I'll say this. Go U2! Ireland is almost as cool as England.

[Piedmon_Sama]

...Be silent Amotis! No seriously I don't see a resemblance in sound. Maybe in musical theory stuff but not in sound. And what about Queen, Duran Duran, The Clash, Pink Floyd, and The Who?

Dude, if you don't see a Blues influence in Pink Floyd, you haven't heard enough Blues....

[Amotis]

Or not enough Pink Floyd.

[Samiam303]

See, my real problem is that the trend in music appears to be that any mediocre bands can just sign onto some massive record label, have obscene amounts of money thrown at promoting them, and just crush the really awesome bands that are out there barely surviving on tour profits and day jobs as construction workers. (True story, that.)

I can't agrue too much of my opinion on Green Day within the politics rules.. Suffice it to say that tight pants and eyeliner do NOT make punk rock. Anyone who says Green Day is punk doesn't know what they're talking about.
(Note that I really am a big fan of the original Green Day music. However, from American Idiot onwards they're just selling out based on the image propagated by Anti-Flag and the likes. They need to get back to where they started and out of places like Hot Topic.)

*Dons flame retardant suit*

[Nightmarenny]

See, my real problem is that the trend in music appears to be that any mediocre bands can just sign onto some massive record label, have obscene amounts of money thrown at promoting them, and just crush the really awesome bands that are out there barely surviving on tour profits and day jobs as construction workers. (True story, that.)

I can't agrue too much of my opinion on Green Day within the politics rules.. Suffice it to say that tight pants and eyeliner do NOT make punk rock. Anyone who says Green Day is punk doesn't know what they're talking about.
(Note that I really am a big fan of the original Green Day music. However, from American Idiot onwards they're just selling out based on the image propagated by Anti-Flag and the likes. They need to get back to where they started and out of places like Hot Topic.)

*Dons flame retardant suit*

Please, please don't don't use the words sell-out. I don't get it. I've argued this with other people. They haven't sold-out. That implies that they changed because they wanted to be popular. Thats always the arguement. Green Day has changed constantly from album to album thats what keeps them going. Just because they came out with this album and disided to be political( not like it was the first time Warning, minority, and macy's Day Parade) Even then they kept it to two songs(The title track and Holiday) with the other eleven being no more political than Dookie.

A band changing its style constantly and hitting a sound that makes them popular is not the same as selling out. If thats so than the Beatles sold Out with Sgt. Pepper, Floyd with "The Wall" and so on.

Also who's getting obscene amounts of money? Fall Out Boy is currently one of the biggest in pop-punk and Wentz still lives with his parents when not touring. They aint getting huge ammounts of money.

[Samiam303]

A band changing its style constantly and hitting a sound that makes them popular is not the same as selling out. If thats so than the Beatles sold Out with Sgt. Pepper, Floyd with "The Wall" and so on.

Also who's getting obscene amounts of money? Fall Out Boy is currently one of the biggest in pop-punk and Wentz still lives with his parents when not touring. They aint getting huge ammounts of money.
First off, I see a difference between simply evolving musically and doing what Green Day has done: making a well-timed image shift during a period of political anger while at the same time moving to a much larger record label and cashing in on the image that other bands have worked to build. I mean come ON... Billie Joe Armstrong even DRESSES like Justin Sane of Anti-Flag.

Armstrong:
http://photos.signonsandiego.com/gallery1.5/albums/2005-grammys/lcgrammy4.jpg

Anti-Flag, who have been doing it for over a decade:
http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/8953/1199235ff53bt3.jpg

If Green Day wanted to CONVINCINGLY be a punk band the way they're trying, here's what's missing:
http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/7474/protestfp9.png

Secondly, I didn't say that the mainstream bands were EARNING huge amounts of money. I said that huge amounts of money were being spent to PROMOTE them. The majority of today's "popular" bands wouldn't be where they are today if they had to make it on skill alone.

[Spartan_Samuel]

Music is different to every person who listens to it, that's why I absolutely LOVE it so much! Personally, I don't hate a band for being famous. Matter of fact I don't HATE any band. I mean I don't like some, but I still have to give respect to them because they actually made it, you know? Fall Out Boy is cool to me, Green Day really just isn't my style, and Panic! at the Disco I don't think has had enough time to reach their full potential.

[Samiam303]

Suger we're going down isn't emo in any sense of the word. Its a "we wont give up and I know everything will be alright". Song. Listin to the words.


We're going down, down in an earlier round
And Sugar, we're going down swinging
I'll be your number one with a bullet
A loaded God complex, **** it and pull it
[x2]

Down, down in an earlier round
And Sugar, we're going down swinging
I'll be your number one with a bullet
A loaded God complex, **** it and pull it

We're going down, down in an earlier round (Take aim at myself)
And Sugar, we're going down swinging (Take back what you said)
I'll be your number one with a bullet (Take aim at myself)
A loaded God complex, **** it and pull it
[x2]

We're going down, down (down, down)
Down, down (down, down)
We're going down, down (down, down)
A loaded God complex, **** it and pull it

We're going down, down in an earlier round (Take aim at myself)
And Sugar, we're going down swinging (Take back what you said)
I'll be your number one with a bullet (Take aim at myself)
A loaded God complex, **** it and pull itEh? Doesn't sound too optimistic.. :wink: This (http://www.plyrics.com/lyrics/streetlightmanifesto/abetterplaceabettertime.html) is a "we wont give up and I know everything will be alright" song. Find the song and listen if you can That on the other hand is repetitive bleh.

EDIT: Gah. Filtered. I trust you'll all figure out what the missing word is.

[Nightmarenny]

First off, I see a difference between simply evolving musically and doing what Green Day has done: making a well-timed image shift during a period of political anger while at the same time moving to a much larger record label and cashing in on the image that other bands have worked to build. I mean come ON... Billie Joe Armstrong even DRESSES like Justin Sane of Anti-Flag.

Armstrong:
http://photos.signonsandiego.com/gallery1.5/albums/2005-grammys/lcgrammy4.jpg

Anti-Flag, who have been doing it for over a decade:
http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/8953/1199235ff53bt3.jpg

If Green Day wanted to CONVINCINGLY be a punk band the way they're trying, here's what's missing:
http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/7474/protestfp9.png

Secondly, I didn't say that the mainstream bands were EARNING huge amounts of money. I said that huge amounts of money were being spent to PROMOTE them. The majority of today's "popular" bands wouldn't be where they are today if they had to make it on skill alone.The short button up with a tie? Its not exactly specific to them.

As for talking politics. They are getting older. Writers have this wierd thing where they write about what intrests and conserns them. When they were young in Dookie a time where Politics didn't seem important. Nothing that really effected americans happened(We had a war that lasted like a week not the most worrying thing) so they wrote about what they felt Apathy, a girl that felt bad about herself, fealing insane, and moving out. Now they are holder and a gigantic thing has happened that shook the nation and a great amount of things after that made the government suspect in their eyes. So for two song(why does everyone ack like its the whole album?) they wrote about the administation, the people and the media, they wrote about the youth they saw disgruntled and as rebelious as ever(as they have children at this point its a pretty huge thing) they wrote about letting go of the the past and about how sitting on your ass and rufusing to take part wouldn't help anything and they wrote about being left behind.

As for Green Day changing with this album I must again point out that only two songs are "political" the style though different is fairly similer to their Nimrod album.

The more I argue with people on Green Day the more I'm more confident they did not rip anyone off. Because I've had like five bands claimed as victims of being ripped-off. It seems no one can agree. At some parts they sound like other bands. Newsflash musicians borrow things from eachother all the time. Its how music evolves.

[Ego Slayer]

I wouldn't say FOB is emo. At least not usually. It's just a bunch of lame break-up songs.


Eh? Doesn't sound too optimistic.. :wink: This (http://www.plyrics.com/lyrics/streetlightmanifesto/abetterplaceabettertime.html) is a "we wont give up and I know everything will be alright" song. Find the song and listen if you can That on the other hand is repetitive bleh.
Woohoo! :smallcool:

[Nightmarenny]

Eh? Doesn't sound too optimistic.. :wink: This (http://www.plyrics.com/lyrics/streetlightmanifesto/abetterplaceabettertime.html) is a "we wont give up and I know everything will be alright" song. Find the song and listen if you can That on the other hand is repetitive bleh.

EDIT: Gah. Filtered. I trust you'll all figure out what the missing word is.
Why i that just the chourus over and over? Anyway thats just an overly poetic way of saying "Hurt me how you like I'll be ok I won't let this die."

Delutional sure but not emo.

As a reply to the newest post songs from fall Out Boy that aint "Lame Break up songs". Yes I have to much time on my hands.

Yule Shoot your eye out
Honable Mention
Calm Before the storm
Pretty in Punk
Growing up
Parker Lewis Can't lose
Our Lawyers made us change the name of this song
Dance, Dance
Of all the gin jionts
nobody puts baby in the corner
I've got a dark alley and a bad idea that says you should shut you mouth
7 minutes in Heaven(Atavan Halen)
Sophomore slump or comback of the year
Champain for my real friends real pain for my shame friends
Get busy living or get busy dying
XO
Snitchs and talkers get stichs and walkers
Thriller
The Take over the breaks over
This ain't a scene its an armsrace
Hum Halleluja
Golden
Thanks for the memories
don't you know who I think I am?
The(after) life of the Party
Bang the Doldrums
Fame<Infamy
Your crashing but your no wave
Its not a side effect of the Cocain, I'm thinking it must be love
Dead on Arrival
Saturday
Homesick and spacecamp
Grenade Jumper
Reinventing the wheel


Hate Fall Out Boy all you like but they ain't no one trick pony. They have songs about Teenage love(that works out) notes of thanks to friends, anxiety, Trials, annoyance with the scene and the less atractive parts of fame. Point is, they run the gamunts

[Samiam303]

The short button up with a tie? Its not exactly specific to them.Watch some videos of each band. That's clearly the look Armstrong's emulating.
Furthermore.. can I show you something? During Bullet in a bible, Armstrong stated "This song (Holiday) is not anti-American, it's anti-war!".
Now we look at the cover of Anti-Flag's album A new kind of army, released five years before the song Holiday.
http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/B00000IFUO.01._SS500_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

See that text along the bottom? Look familiar? :wink:

(why does everyone ack like its the whole album?)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c0/Greenday_americanidiot.png
Eh? :smallconfused:


they wrote about the youth they saw disgruntled and as rebelious as ever(as they have children at this point its a pretty huge thing) And Green Day charges those aforementioned kids ~$40 to see an arena show where you can't even get near the stage. That, sir/madam/person with no gender icon, is selling out in my book.
I'm gonna see Anti-Flag at the House of Blues, which is known for high ticket prices... Guess how much they're charging? $15, and part of it goes to build wells in Africa.


The more I argue with people on Green Day the more I'm more confident they did not rip anyone off. Because I've had like five bands claimed as victims of being ripped-off.
So just becuase there's more then one piece of evidence you're gonna discount it all? They're scamming an entire GENERA.


Why i that just the chourus over and over? Anyway thats just an overly poetic way of saying "Hurt me how you like I'll be ok I won't let this die."

Because that's most of the song, and I thought I'd leave out the sex.

Anyway, that's your view on it. It reads to me as just another song on suicide.

[Nightmarenny]

I'm not dicounting anything. I'm saying that evryone in rock borrows from others. Anti-flag didn't apear in a vacum you'know.

On the kids thing first I doubt that Green Day disides the price of the show, regardless what does Teenage disgruntlment have to do with being charged to go see a band? They are disgrunted because they feal they have no say in there life or the county, because they go trough youth being told they will have to conform eventraly or they will never get a job. because they feal push around a betrayed not because they can't aford a slurpy after seeing their favorite band(whatever might be).

And if thats your few on Sugar were going don I wn't argue they are open to intepretation.

[Samiam303]

On the kids thing first I doubt that Green Day disides the pric of the sho, regardless what does Teenage disgruntlment have to do with being charged to go see a band? They are disgrunted because they feal they have no say in there life or the county, because they go trough youth being told they will have to conform eventraly or they will never get a job. because they feal push around a betrayed not because they can't aford a slurpy after seeing their favorite band(whatever might be).

I totally agree with WHY the kids are angry. I'm one of them. I'm just saying that if Green Day actually supported the kids, they wouldn't be using them for such blatant profit.

[Nightmarenny]

I totally agree with WHY the kids are angry. I'm one of them. I'm saying that if Green Day actually supported the kids, they wouldn't be using them for such blatant profit.
Sorry about the spelling last time my computer is missing button presses I'll go over it after this.

Again I ask does Green Day set the prices? Fame has its price and sometimes if you want to play stadiums and area's you have to let them choose the price. Anyway how bad is that as concerts go? Are they really that expensive? Is is just a frivilious Green day wants more money campain? Don't they have roadese, agents, publishers, audio and lights guys, security, the area personal, ect.

[Samiam303]

Again I ask does Green Day set the prices? Fame has its price and sometimes if you want to play stadiums and area's you have to let them choose the price.
Not to beat the Anti-Flag thing into the ground, but Anti-Flag has stated in their contracts that EVERY SHOW THEY PLAY is non-smoking. They're still able to play at tons of big mainstream venues. As long as you put on a show, it's not hard to get what you want in a contract. I don't think any venue is gonna turn down Green Day playing there, just becuase they wanna take $10-15 off the proposed ticket price.


Don't they have roadese, agents, publishers, audio and lights guys, security, the area personal, ect.
Doesn't every band? It's not like Green Day couldn't cut back on the fireworks and make the shows affordable to the working class rocker...

Note: And I just wanna emphasize that I don't have anything against you. I know I've argued with almost everything you say, but you've got a right to hold opinions. I'm just as you said one of those people who gets really mad about music. :smile:

[Nightmarenny]

Not to beat the Anti-Flag thing into the ground, but Anti-Flag has stated in their contracts that EVERY SHOW THEY PLAY is non-smoking. They're still able to play at tons of big mainstream venues. As long as you put on a show, it's not hard to get what you want in a contract. I don't think any venue is gonna turn down Green Day playing there, just becuase they wanna take $10-15 off the proposed ticket price.


Doesn't every band? It's not like Green Day couldn't cut back on the fireworks and make the shows affordable to the working class rocker...

Note: And I just wanna emphasize that I don't have anything against you. I know I've argued with almost everything you say, but you've got a right to hold opinions. I'm just as you said one of those people who gets really mad about music. :smile:Thanks on that last note I feal the same way. Also I feal at this point the arguement is going no where and it would e best to "shake hands and walk away" However first I feal I must proove that Fall Out Boy can right a happy song. Just one second.

[Samiam303]

Haha, fair enough. Can't wait to see that one! :biggrin:

[Nightmarenny]

Its not exactly "traditional" happy but it makes me happy.

A song about being with someone that knows you so well that you fell alittle scared but it makes you so happy that other people around get jeolous of you.



"It's Not A Side Effect Of The Cocaine. I Am Thinking It Must Be Love"

why can you read me like no one else?
I hide behind these words
but I'm coming out
I wish I kept them behind my tongue
I hide behind these words
but I'm coming out

put your hand between
an aching head and an aching world
we'll make them so jealous
we'll make them hate us
an aching head and an aching world
we'll make them so jealous
we'll make them so jealous

all the ways you make my stomach turn
and all the long drives
with my friends blur
and I wish I kept them inside my mind
I hide behind these words

and think of all the places
where you've been lost
and then found...out
in between my sheets
in between the rights and the wrongs

put your hand between
an aching head and an aching world
we'll make them so jealous
we'll make them hate us
aching head and an aching world
think of all the places
where you've been lost and found...out

[SDF]

Eh? Doesn't sound too optimistic.. :wink: This (http://www.plyrics.com/lyrics/streetlightmanifesto/abetterplaceabettertime.html) is a "we wont give up and I know everything will be alright" song. Find the song and listen if you can That on the other hand is repetitive bleh

Yes, ska brother! I've seen them live twice.

Most modern bands with the term "emo" tagged on them are anything but. As Amotis said the genre has its roots in hardcore. I enjoy emo bands like Sunny Day Real Estate, and Saves the Day, but having to listen to Hawthorn Heights makes me want to gouge out my eyes on the way back to my ears.

I don't hate music because it is modern or popular, but I have to wonder what music from now people will be listening to in twenty years.

[Samiam303]

Hmm. While that's definitely happier then the other FOB I've heard, I still have a hard time taking them seriously. They just seem TOO dramatically emotional NOT to be an act.

Each unto his own, though! :smile:

@^ Nice to see another ska fan! I've seen them twice as well.. almost saw them a third time but I was out of town. How recently have you seen them? Get to see any of the stuff off the upcoming album? :biggrin:

@V Haha... certainly interesting naming on some of those bands, to say the least.

[Nightmarenny]

I've never really lstened to emo but I really must say they have the best names:smallcool:

[SDF]

@^ Nice to see another ska fan! I've seen them twice as well.. almost saw them a third time but I was out of town. How recently have you seen them? Get to see any of the stuff off the upcoming album? :biggrin:

Saw them last May, I don't know if they were playing any new songs yet... I just can't remember :P

@V: I remember that! 80k worth of gear lol

[Samiam303]

Doubt it, the new songs were phased in this summer. Can't wait for the new album! Supposedly this spring, if they don't get robbed again or something.. :wink:

[Piedmon_Sama]

I've never really lstened to emo but I really must say they have the best names:smallcool:

Someone really needs to tell those kids that brevity is the soul of wit.

[AmoDman]

I laugh at you all claiming fame has it's ticket prices hike. BS. More fans = more tickets sold = less need for larger profit margins. Sure, the label decides a lot...but last I checked I bought a ticket for around $12 for a Switchfoot show when they were the current #1 in nation. Why? Because Switchfoot flat out refuses to over-price their shows. Fact.

[Erloas]

Ticket prices usually come down to how much they think they can charge for the tickets, its really as simple as that. If the band knows they are popular and people will pay large amounts of money for tickets to their concert then they will usually charge a large amount for them. Sure there are a lot of expenses that go into putting on a tour and a show, but there are a lot of people at each show too so the cost per ticket doesn't have to be that high. If we say your average arena holds 6500 people (a guess, I checked two locally, one said 5k the other said 8K+up to 12k more lawn seats, not even counting the statiums which hold upwards of 40-60k) and it might cost $100k to put on a show. I have no idea how much it would cost, but it can't be that much since it is those same venues that have everything from concerts to childrens shows and such, a lot of which aren't going to be as high profile as a concert so the cost to rent the venue can't be too high. So we'll say 50k of that goes to the venue, and the other 50k go to general expenses, travel, paying the roadies, etc which seems reasonable since any single concert only needs to pay for upwards of a week, usually only a couple days, worth of work. That is only about $16 a ticket to cover those expenses, that leaves a lot of extra money floating around at $40 a ticket. And thats not even counting the ticket companies cost, since they automatically tack on their own $10 fees ontop of the price.
I don't actually have any idea how much a concert costs to run, but just went off what seems reasonable. I know it can't be too much when you can see a football game has seats going for 15-80 a ticket and a concert comes in and charges 40-250 for the same number of tickets and same seats. And there is no question that those football teams are able to make a lot of money out there even with substationally lower ticket prices.

Given there is also the fact that in some cases the band had no idea what they were doing when dealing with the recording companies and could be getting very little of that money, but someone is making piles off of each concert even if it isn't the artists necessarily.

Really it is fairly hard to tell how much a band has "sold-out" (not even counting the fact that everyone views if differently) because there are some cases when the band just wants to do something different and there are others where the record company forces them to do what they want them to. Unless you know where the change, or lack of change, is really coming from then you can't really tell if they've sold out or not. At least in terms of music. Its usually considered selling out when they start putting their songs on comercials and start pushing products.

[Samiam303]

Its usually considered selling out when they start putting their songs on comercials and start pushing products.

I'd add that it's selling out when the amount of band merchandise reaches a certain point. I mean come on, this is just from ONE WEB SITE:
Green Day Binder. (http://www.ebtm.com/invt/a4lagd)
Green Day Pencil Case. (http://www.ebtm.com/invt/pcgd)
Green Day Logo Magnet Set. (http://www.ebtm.com/invt/mgsgd1)
And my personal favorite:
Green Day Logo Shot Glasses! (http://www.ebtm.com/invt/sggd1&source=commjunction)

:biggrin: :yuk:

I left out all the clothing but you get the idea.

[Amotis]

Meh, Erloas beat me to it. I payed a kidney for my Radiohead concert.

[Telonius]

I know it can't be too much when you can see a football game has seats going for 15-80 a ticket and a concert comes in and charges 40-250 for the same number of tickets and same seats. And there is no question that those football teams are able to make a lot of money out there even with substationally lower ticket prices...

Football teams also have much better merchandising than the typical band. There's jerseys, hats, clothing, all that kind of stuff that's sold at every mall in the US, at a huge markup. Most bands don't have that. You buy the shirt at the concert, or you order it off their website.

[Samiam303]

Football teams also have much better merchandising than the typical band. There's jerseys, hats, clothing, all that kind of stuff that's sold at every mall in the US, at a huge markup. Most bands don't have that. You buy the shirt at the concert, or you order it off their website.

Heh.. I'll repost:


I'd add that it's selling out when the amount of band merchandise reaches a certain point. I mean come on, this is just from ONE WEB SITE:
Green Day Binder. (http://www.ebtm.com/invt/a4lagd)
Green Day Pencil Case. (http://www.ebtm.com/invt/pcgd)
Green Day Logo Magnet Set. (http://www.ebtm.com/invt/mgsgd1)
And my personal favorite:
Green Day Logo Shot Glasses! (http://www.ebtm.com/invt/sggd1&source=commjunction)

:biggrin: :yuk:

I left out all the clothing but you get the idea.
Have you been to a mall recently? They're PACKED with Green Day shirts, hats, belts, socks, notebooks, guitar straps, rings, necklaces, armbands, mugs and shot glasses. :yuk:

[Amotis]

Most bands don't have that. And most bands don't charge 75-100 dollars for a shirt just cause it's "official."

[Telonius]

Heh.. I'll repost:


Have you been to a mall recently? They're PACKED with Green Day shirts, hats, belts, socks, notebooks, guitar straps, rings, necklaces, armbands, mugs and shot glasses. :yuk:
Yes, I have been to a mall recently. I didn't see a "Green Day Store," and didn't see any Green Day stuff in any of the major outlets. But I did see a "Washington Redskins Store," and every store that sold clothing had Redskins jerseys. Bands just don't don't sell merchandise on the scale that football teams do.

[Erloas]

Football teams also have much better merchandising than the typical band. There's jerseys, hats, clothing, all that kind of stuff that's sold at every mall in the US, at a huge markup. Most bands don't have that. You buy the shirt at the concert, or you order it off their website.

Well it is hard to draw a good parallel between the two, but it does help give some prespective on what sort of costs are probably required to run a big show at a stadium. There is a huge amount of merchandising going to the NFL, but most of that ends up going to the NFL or specific players and not really much to a specific team. Just because Paton Manning gets a lot of money doing specific merchandising doesn't help the Colts pay for his football salary. The production costs for an NFL game is probably a lot higher too, with 100s of people doing video and audio and all sorts of other things. Considering that most stadiums are actually owned by the cities and sponsored by other companies I'm betting that most of the teams basically "rent" the stadium for their games. You're also paying for the salary of 50 players (not counting all the people in the background, but they are there for both) instead of 5 musicians.
They do get money from other sources and the situation isn't exactly the same, but I don't think there is any reasonable justification to think the production costs for the concert would be the 2-4x times as expensive as ticket prices would suggest.

[Don Julio Anejo]

In sports the players also get a lot of money due to their market price. In hockey all players make at least $500,000 because that's the minimum salary. But most make more than that, upwards of several million (up to 6-7 million for superstars like Roberto Luongo, Jarome Iginla, Jaromir Jagr, etc). Even when one team can't afford to pay that, there's other teams out there with a huge market that can.

Edmonton couldn't afford Wayne Gretzky because he was making something like $7 million in the late 80's. So he went to LA because they could pay that much money and they wanted a player who could make their team much better. This drives up the salaries because good players are hard to come by.

It may not be exactly the same in all sports, but it works in a similar way - player salaries go up because there's always someone willing to give them more money. Before the NHL created a salary cap Detroit spent something like $72 million on players and literally loaded the team on superstars, jacking up the prices and winning 3 Stanley Cups and countless President's Trophies (best record during regular season, before playoffs).

[Cobra_Ikari]

I can explain this one easily.

All three of the bands you mentioned have woken me up through basically an entire Spring and Summer when my sister would haul her fat ass to the computer down in the basement (where I normally sleep) and start blasting Greenday and that other crap at full volume at 8:00 IN THE MORNING.

That was how I learned it was my destiny--my holy mission--to track down and violently murder Greenday.

But seriously, I just hate bands who have a singer who sounds like he hasn't done with puberty yet.

Same here. Except replace 8:00 AM with "1 song on repeat for the entire day". Overplaying something will make you hate it. With a passion.

And now, I find that I know the lyrics to songs I don't want to know the lyrics to.

[Nightmarenny]

Sorry to start this up again. About Sugar we're going down


One might note that the band predicted the song's performance, with a line from the chorus reading "I'll be your number one with a bullet". Songs that go up on the chart receive a bullet. That may be what the "bullet" in the song is.

[Samiam303]

Sorry to start this up again. About Sugar we're going down

That may be what the "bullet" in the song is.
Yeah... again, not to be rude, but you can tell yourself whatever you want. That's WAY overanalyzing it and you know it... It's obvious from the SONG what they're talking about.
I wouldn't argue with it except that the line that follows includes "**** it and pull it". :yuk:

[Pepper]

Oh...and me nitpicking; Popular is usually meant to mean "anything besides classical (and it's subgenres) music." There's also mainstream music (which I think you're talking about) and pop music (which is using pop chords and chord progressions, lyrics, etc). Yeah, I've complained about the misuse of terms everywhere...has anyone listened? No...but I don't mind, I just keep saying it to keep my sanity.


This could not be more incorrect. "Pop" music during the baroque period was, Baroque music. "Pop" music during the Classical era, was classical music.
Pop music in the united states during the 1950's were the "popular" hits from the most famous broadways musicals, and "pop" music today is just that, whatever's popular.

[Nightmarenny]

Yeah... again, not to be rude, but you can tell yourself whatever you want. That's WAY overanalyzing it and you know it... It's obvious from the SONG what they're talking about.
I wouldn't argue with it except that the line that follows includes "[Rooster] it and pull it". :yuk:
I was just pointing that out as a possibility. Fall Out Boy songs are rif with metaphore and shorthand. So I'm not quick to dissmiss

However aparantly Pete Wentz has already confirmed that..
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7604814986658761144&q=fall+out+boy+warped+tour&hl=en


Its kinda like a state of the union of Fall Out Boy, The girl is a metaphore for something larger.

[Dragonrider]

I don't "like" or "dislike" any genre or band in particular. My musical tastes are so widely varied! I'm going through my grandparents' massive CD collection and ripping anything that looks worth it. I've gotten some opera and some folk and some rock...all of it is pretty old, of course, or bands that've been around a long time, but that's not saying much since they're some of the best. I get music from my parents, from my friends, from my brother, and just from my own surfing around. It's all good. I don't have anything against "mainstream" music at all. I go by song or artist, not genre.

[Thelion]

I'm almost embarrased to use the word 'hate', but I do hate certain musical genres, in particular the 'gangsta rap' scene. One should NEVER suppose it's cool to be in a gang, 'screw some bitches' and get shot, just to survive and take revenge by 'shootin' the sucka'. Apart from that I just don't think the music is good, but that's not hating. I hate the message.

For the same reason I hate a band like Slayer (Marilyn Manson also comes in mind). Yes, I am a headbanger, but I always 'hated' bands who use the person of Satan to make their point. So your not Christian/Jew/Muslim/religious, I can understand. What I can't understand is they have to be so rash to people who do believe something and find their happiness in this. I can understand people develop some kind of hatred against organised belief, but I'dd suggest to let it go and don't bother to change it. I know the usage of 'Satan' isn't serious, still I hate it when people try to be cool or make their point with it. For this reason I absolutely detest 99% of the black/death metal scene.

[Renegade Paladin]

It's not because they're popular; it's because they suck. The modern music industry is exactly that; they're not creating art, they're attempting to repackage the same formulas that have already proven popular for the sake of making money.

[GeeVee]

For the same reason I hate a band like Slayer (Marilyn Manson also comes in mind). Yes, I am a headbanger, but I always 'hated' bands who use the person of Satan to make their point. So your not Christian/Jew/Muslim/religious, I can understand. What I can't understand is they have to be so rash to people who do believe something and find their happiness in this. I can understand people develop some kind of hatred against organised belief, but I'dd suggest to let it go and don't bother to change it. I know the usage of 'Satan' isn't serious, still I hate it when people try to be cool or make their point with it. For this reason I absolutely detest 99% of the black/death metal scene.


For the love of god, don't associate Marilyn Manson with Satanism. The man is in no way some sort of devil-worshiper. He does have some radical opinions (a distaste for organized religion being one of them), but I can't remember him pulling any explicitly Satanic crap. Watch any of his interviews, he actually comes across as very intelligent and well-spoken, as opposed to say, the vast majority of anti-Christian black-metal heads.

EDIT: Ignore, proven to be very, very wrong.

[AmoDman]

For the love of god, don't associate Marilyn Manson with Satanism. The man is in no way some sort of devil-worshiper. He does have some radical opinions (a distaste for organized religion being one of them), but I can't remember him pulling any explicitly Satanic crap. Watch any of his interviews, he actually comes across as very intelligent and well-spoken, as opposed to say, the vast majority of anti-Christian black-metal heads.

Marilyn Manson! Mild Mannered Satanist by day, Hardcore phantasm from beyond by night!*

*Just a funny statement.

On next week's episode!

Michael Jackson! Innocent god of pop by day, [content not suitable to be discussed on the boards] by night!

[2 Eyed Cyclops]

I dont mind all types of music, untill the damn radio stations play each song again and again and again!!! I feel like im taking crazy pills!

[Amotis]

For the love of god, don't associate Marilyn Manson with Satanism. The man is in no way some sort of devil-worshiper. He does have some radical opinions (a distaste for organized religion being one of them), but I can't remember him pulling any explicitly Satanic crap. Watch any of his interviews, he actually comes across as very intelligent and well-spoken, as opposed to say, the vast majority of anti-Christian black-metal heads.

Didn't he literaily become a preacher of satin? I remember him talking about it. Yeah, he did.


It was during this tour that Manson had occasion to meet with Church of Satan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_Satan) founder Dr. Anton LaVey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anton_LaVey). After a cordial meeting, LaVey honored Manson with the title of "Reverend (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverend)" — meaning, in the Church of Satan, a person who is revered by the church, and not necessarily one who dedicates his life to preaching the religion to others, as with a priest (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priest) or minister (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minister_of_religion).

Wiki Article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marilyn_Manson_(band))


This could not be more incorrect. "Pop" music during the baroque period was, Baroque music. "Pop" music during the Classical era, was classical music.
Pop music in the united states during the 1950's were the "popular" hits from the most famous broadways musicals, and "pop" music today is just that, whatever's popular.

That's not a very good definition because it doesn't address anything. At least mine acutally encompasses. Take a "pop" music class today and you'll get exactly what I was talking about, not just what's popular today.

Popular music is also one of the masses, which was not exactly baroque or classical but the underlying minstrels, church music, street music, gypsy (roma) music, flamenco music, etc.

[ray53208]

but what about people who dont believe in things like that? that isnt even a factor in the decision making process. its just silly. if thats going to be your criteria for evaluating music, then i cant have a serious discussion.

its just that i dont think its very good on the whole. at the very least kind of boring and at most annoying. and when annoying is repeated ad nauseum, you get someone willing to smash things with baseball bats.

pop music is designed. there are formulas in place to create a song that will appeal to the widest audience and systems in place to assure that the airwaves are saturated with them.

im not saying i hate all pop. just most of it. its just variation on a theme and after a few decades it gets old. you start to see the formula and no amount of smoke and mirrors can hide it. ive heard it before and better a long time ago.

[Midnight Son]

I have no problem whatsoever with Marilyn Manson's persona, either on stage or off. He is free to think and believe what he wishes. My problem with him is that his music sucks and people who listen to it sometimes force me to do so as well, since they play it so loudly in my vicinity.

Also, on the topic of Fallout Boy...Sellouts! I detest that cell phone commercial they're on. If some idiot at a gym feels the need to force their tripe on me, I feel the need to punch him in the face. Nevermind how unhygenic it is to share sweaty headphones.

[Nightmarenny]

It's not because they're popular; it's because they suck. The modern music industry is exactly that; they're not creating art, they're attempting to repackage the same formulas that have already proven popular for the sake of making money.
Um, no.(The post should end there but theres a letter requirment)

[Jack Squat]

could you explain why not? that might help solidify your position than just taking a contradictory position

[Nightmarenny]

could you explain why not? that might help solidify your position than just taking a contradictory position
I fully intend to but at the moment I don't have time to go on a rambling posts. I'll be back later tonight.

[Ted_Stryker]

I'm almost embarrased to use the word 'hate', but I do hate certain musical genres, in particular the 'gangsta rap' scene. One should NEVER suppose it's cool to be in a gang, 'screw some bitches' and get shot, just to survive and take revenge by 'shootin' the sucka'. Apart from that I just don't think the music is good, but that's not hating. I hate the message.
*busts a cap in Thelion's ass*

Eat that, yo.

:smalltongue:

[Nightmarenny]

It's not because they're popular; it's because they suck. The modern music industry is exactly that; they're not creating art, they're attempting to repackage the same formulas that have already proven popular for the sake of making money.
Allright lets see if I can manage this without vomiting or cursing.

First lets get a side note out of the way. Whether music is art really depends on the person and the artist. Some record companies do horde money, that is indisputible. That however has nothing to do with whether the product is "art" because they only sell it. Saying music ain't art because its being sold by a greedy jerks is like saying the same for painting and Gallery owners who are not going to be any better. What matters is what the artist puts into the piece.


Ok now to the main point. You say that they only repackage the same formula's over and over again. Well the best way to prove a point is with first hand accounts is it not? So lets look at some bands that are big today and how they got there ok?

Green Day-Had been a band for years and had been touring since they we're out of school. When they got a record contract they had sold 50,000 copies of their record Kerplunk on an touring, word of mouth and an indie label.

Fall Out Boy-Before being found by "fueled by Ramen" records(which I'll talk about later.) they had gained a huge following in Chicago and already release the album "evening out with your Girlfriend".

Panic? At the Disco-(copied from wiki)In order to get their music heard, the band contacted Fall Out Boy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_Out_Boy) bassist Peter Wentz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Wentz), through LiveJournal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LiveJournal), and sent him a link to their PureVolume (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PureVolume) site. Wentz was so impressed that he took a trip to Las Vegas to meet the band in person. After seeing them play in their garage, he asked if they would sign with his Fueled by Ramen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fueled_by_Ramen) imprint label Decaydance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decaydance).

Less Than Jake-They had release three EP's before a company noticed.

My Chemical Romance-Had already release "I brought you bullets you brought me love" with minor success.

I have more but I think by now you should see my point. These bands that are popular did not become that way because "they fit the mold" but because they were already achieving enough success that someone saw a possiblity and jumped on the bandwagon. More so if you look at those names you should reliese how bizzare each of these bands were on release.

Green Day was the first Pop-Punk band to really make any success. They sounded wierd and unlike what existed at the time(grunge and such). Less Than Jake are largely credited with starting the Florida Ska movement. Fall Out Boy has been described by its singer as "To melodic for hardcore and and to hard for pop-punk shows, basically the odd kid" and fetured what is still a very stange lyric sensibility. Panic is just strange in every way. Its got some dance music plus rockish and rather odd tempo and a look and fealing that is reminicent of the 30's. My Chemical Romance sports a complicated lead in a time where no one does it anymore.

These bands ain't popular because they fit a mold. Infact they are down-right wierd.

Now lets talk about record companies. It can't be denied that RC's are there to make money and alot of them are cold soul-less machines is their working but thats not everyone. Fueled by Ramen is an example. Started by Lyricist and drummer Vinnie of Less Than Jake. It was started to make sure art and good music went out and not just stuff that makes money. Their stated porpose was to be "equel parts art and business.
Some of the bands that have deals with them are Gym Class Hero's, Fall Out Boy, The Academy is..., and Panic? At the Disco. These band s are there because someone in the company likes them.

So yes thats my argument. Comments?

[Nightmarenny]

double post

[Renegade Paladin]

Allright lets see if I can manage this without vomiting or cursing.

First lets get a side note out of the way. Whether music is art really depends on the person and the artist. Some record companies do horde money, that is indisputible. That however has nothing to do with whether the product is "art" because they only sell it. Saying music ain't art because its being sold by a greedy jerks is like saying the same for painting and Gallery owners who are not going to be any better. What matters is what the artist puts into the piece.


Ok now to the main point. You say that they only repackage the same formula's over and over again. Well the best way to prove a point is with first hand accounts is it not? So lets look at some bands that are big today and how they got there ok?

Green Day-Had been a band for years and had been touring since they we're out of school. When they got a record contract they had sold 50,000 copies of their record Kerplunk on an touring, word of mouth and an indie label.

Fall Out Boy-Before being found by "fueled by Ramen" records(which I'll talk about later.) they had gained a huge following in Chicago and already release the album "evening out with your Girlfriend".

Panic? At the Disco-(copied from wiki)In order to get their music heard, the band contacted Fall Out Boy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_Out_Boy) bassist Peter Wentz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Wentz), through LiveJournal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LiveJournal), and sent him a link to their PureVolume (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PureVolume) site. Wentz was so impressed that he took a trip to Las Vegas to meet the band in person. After seeing them play in their garage, he asked if they would sign with his Fueled by Ramen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fueled_by_Ramen) imprint label Decaydance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decaydance).

Less Than Jake-They had release three EP's before a company noticed.

My Chemical Romance-Had already release "I brought you bullets you brought me love" with minor success.

I have more but I think by now you should see my point. These bands that are popular did not become that way because "they fit the mold" but because they were already achieving enough success that someone saw a possiblity and jumped on the bandwagon. More so if you look at those names you should reliese how bizzare each of these bands were on release.

Green Day was the first Pop-Punk band to really make any success. They sounded wierd and unlike what existed at the time(grunge and such). Less Than Jake are largely credited with starting the Florida Ska movement. Fall Out Boy has been described by its singer as "To melodic for hardcore and and to hard for pop-punk shows, basically the odd kid" and fetured what is still a very stange lyric sensibility. Panic is just strange in every way. Its got some dance music plus rockish and rather odd tempo and a look and fealing that is reminicent of the 30's. My Chemical Romance sports a complicated lead in a time where no one does it anymore.

These bands ain't popular because they fit a mold. Infact they are down-right wierd.

Now lets talk about record companies. It can't be denied that RC's are there to make money and alot of them are cold soul-less machines is their working but thats not everyone. Fueled by Ramen is an example. Started by Lyricist and drummer Vinnie of Less Than Jake. It was started to make sure art and good music went out and not just stuff that makes money. Their stated porpose was to be "equel parts art and business.
Some of the bands that have deals with them are Gym Class Hero's, Fall Out Boy, The Academy is..., and Panic? At the Disco. These band s are there because someone in the company likes them.

So yes thats my argument. Comments?
Green Day is a massive exception to the rule, who the hell is Fall Out Boy, Panic at the Disco sucks and should go die, who the hell is Less Than Jake, and I've only vaguely heard of My Chemical Romance.

Rap endlessly copies itself. There's only so many times you can produce an album about how much you hate the cops and how great it is to sell drugs and shoot people before it gets OLD. That number of times is somewhere south of once. It's been done more times than I care to count since a certain non-song whose title I can't say here came out in 1988.

Modern pop country? Do not get me started. :smallsigh: If ever there was a formula, it was that incredibly fake accent that almost everyone in the country music industry, no matter where they're from, cultivates. You will not go anywhere in the world and find somewhere where the people speak with that twang naturally. And, like rap, the themes just recycle themselves.

Bubblegum pop must die a horrible death. There are certain uses it's put to at a certain naval base in Cuba that I can't talk about here due to the posting policies for a reason. :smallannoyed: More seriously, the music is mindless. Same three chords. Always. Bands that will use a friggin' seventh interval are considered revolutionary now because most of them are too dumb to actually learn to utilize a guitar.

To just put it more simply, good music hasn't been truly popular since the 1980s at the latest, and it is doing terrible things to culture. I have been asked why I listen to instrumental music because there are no words! :smallfurious:

[Nightmarenny]

Green Day is a massive exception to the rule, who the hell is Fall Out Boy, Panic at the Disco sucks and should go die, who the hell is Less Than Jake, and I've only vaguely heard of My Chemical Romance.

Rap endlessly copies itself. There's only so many times you can produce an album about how much you hate the cops and how great it is to sell drugs and shoot people before it gets OLD. That number of times is somewhere south of once. It's been done more times than I care to count since a certain non-song whose title I can't say here came out in 1988.

Modern pop country? Do not get me started. :smallsigh: If ever there was a formula, it was that incredibly fake accent that almost everyone in the country music industry, no matter where they're from, cultivates. You will not go anywhere in the world and find somewhere where the people speak with that twang naturally. And, like rap, the themes just recycle themselves.

Bubblegum pop must die a horrible death. There are certain uses it's put to at a certain naval base in Cuba that I can't talk about here due to the posting policies for a reason. :smallannoyed: More seriously, the music is mindless. Same three chords. Always. Bands that will use a friggin' seventh interval are considered revolutionary now because most of them are too dumb to actually learn to utilize a guitar.

To just put it more simply, good music hasn't been truly popular since the 1980s at the latest, and it is doing terrible things to culture. I have been asked why I listen to instrumental music because there are no words! :smallfurious:Fall Out Boy is the current "biggest band in the world which makes me alittle creeped out that you don't know yet have such a strong opinion on Panic. Whether you like the band was not the point. I pointed out that they made it because someone likes them. If you would like to respond to that with a "but I hate them" thats fine but its not relavent. Wether you've heard of the bands I don't care.
As for your others thats fine. I have nothing really to say to defend the others genres but really whats the matter with you? Do you know the meaning of an opinion? Panic should die because you don't like it? I wasn't aware not meeting you expectation was a capital offense. There hasn't been good music since the 80's because you say so? I'll alert the masses.
To put it simply your pretentious and completly missed the point of my post.

[Renegade Paladin]

I may be pretentious, but at least I can spell. :smalltongue:

As for pretension, it may be that, but it is more this: I'm a trained musician. I can pick up my bass and do the bass lines from any current popular song you care to name after hearing it a couple times. You know why? It's child's play. And comparatively, I'm not very good at the instrument. Nobody writes complex music anymore. When I said formula I was being literal; you do not hear pop music that isn't based on the basic chord progression formulas they teach you in elementary music theory. I'm mad at the RIAA for ripping off musicians the way they do, but sometimes I can't help but think that a lot of them aren't earning it anyway.


What's even more hilarious? These people are doing this for a living even though I've known loads upon loads of musicians who are manifestly more skilled. Bass hasn't even been my instrument of choice for a full four years yet; I picked it up after I had to give up trumpet and learned enough in the span of nine months to pass college auditions with it even though I'd never touched one before my senior year of high school. So yes, I do have nothing but contempt for people who play music professionally but can't bother to actually use their instruments at a level above second year students.

[Nightmarenny]

I may be pretentious, but at least I can spell. :smalltongue:

As for pretension, it may be that, but it is more this: I'm a trained musician. I can pick up my bass and do the bass lines from any current popular song you care to name after hearing it a couple times. You know why? It's child's play. And comparatively, I'm not very good at the instrument. Nobody writes complex music anymore. When I said formula I was being literal; you do not hear pop music that isn't based on the basic chord progression formulas they teach you in elementary music theory. I'm mad at the RIAA for ripping off musicians the way they do, but sometimes I can't help but think that a lot of them aren't earning it anyway.


What's even more hilarious? These people are doing this for a living even though I've known loads upon loads of musicians who are manifestly more skilled. Bass hasn't even been my instrument of choice for a full four years yet; I picked it up after I had to give up trumpet and learned enough in the span of nine months to pass college auditions with it even though I'd never touched one before my senior year of high school. So yes, I do have nothing but contempt for people who play music professionally but can't bother to actually use their instruments at a level above second year students.
Because complicated chord scheme's are the hallmark of good music and not good sound. No way. I bet you could do the same thing with the Beatles and Metalica and a load of other old and very popular bands aswell. You're snobby-ness betrays your every sentence. "I can play bass better then everyone else so my opinion counts more than everyone else(hyperbole)"

I can play guitar and Could probably knock out most songs from the "british envasion: onward in less than a week and have been doing it for only a few years. Big deal. Play the most complicated thing you can think, all kinds of overly complicated chords. Thats great. It probably won't sound to great though ,worse over singing. The creation of a good song is not so shallow.

[Pepper]

That's not a very good definition because it doesn't address anything. At least mine acutally encompasses. Take a "pop" music class today and you'll get exactly what I was talking about, not just what's popular today.

Popular music is also one of the masses, which was not exactly baroque or classical but the underlying minstrels, church music, street music, gypsy (roma) music, flamenco music, etc.

Baroque music WAS the music of the masses during the baroque period. Sacred music exists in all periods of music, and the street music of any given time was the popular music of whatever generation happened to be playing it at the time.

Your definition may suit your purposes, and is of a trivial nature i agree, but the way in which you support your opinions with somewhat vague, innacurate facts is what leads me to comment.

[Renegade Paladin]

The creation of a good song involves some actual creation. Making up some riffs and playing them over a ii-V-I progression can sound good, but it certainly isn't a whole lot in the way of creativity... and most don't even manage to sound good. On the unhappy occasions when I'm forced to listen to the pop radio stations that play the same songs every hour, sometimes twice an hour, then I find I would much rather be off playing Pachelbel's Canon in D... which you will know, if you know anything about the more popular classical music at all, sucks to play as a bassist or cellist. Same eight notes. Fifty four times. Almost as bad as Bolero. Actually, it bears a remarkable resemblance to modern pop; a bunch of fancy riffs on top of a total waste of the lower-pitched instruments. Rob Paravonian put that one better, and funnier, than I ever could. (http://youtube.com/watch?v=JdxkVQy7QLM)

And perhaps you missed the part where I specifically said I'm not too terribly good at the bass. That's the giveaway. When an amateur can do what you the professional are doing, you're not trying hard enough.

Edit: And it gets even better. Ever listen to Weird Al Yankovic? His stuff is not only hilarious; most of the time it's musically better played than the original recordings. Parody being better quality than the original: Strike two.

[Orzel]

I've played the cello, bass guitar, and the big old bass (don't come late to strings class every year).

Combine that with the fact that I grew up with rap, r&b, soca and reggae.

I had 2 things going against melody at age 13.
Fast forward 10 years. I hate most music with boring low pitches. I'm zone out to most music and don't care anymore. I have to force my broken mind to listen to the high pitched. I play Pachelbel's Canon in D to get my anger up for video games.

Oh and I have a bad Barry White singing voice.

[Shadow of the Sun]

Which is why I appreciate the local metal band Phalanx, whose bass player is missing everything above his first joint of his ring finger and he still freaking sweep picks. On a bass. It is never boring. Ever.

[Renegade Paladin]

Metal for the win. :smallbiggrin:

[Shadow of the Sun]

Metal and Jazz Fusion is where you will find the most interesting musical stuff, and in most cases it still has emotion.

I love these two genres. Can you tell?

[GeeVee]

Didn't he literaily become a preacher of satin? I remember him talking about it. Yeah, he did. Wiki Article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marilyn_Manson_%28band%29)


Oh, well. Guess I was wrong. My respect for the man just dropped quite a bit.

[Midnight Son]

For those who say that music must be complicated or play more than a few chords to be good, I present the following rebuttal; Louie Louie.

[Renegade Paladin]

I didn't say it must be complicated to be good; I said that if an entire broad category of music can't be bothered to do anything but copy itself, there are problems. You have to wonder after a certain point: Do these artists play basic stuff because they just don't want to use more variety to their forms, or because they can't? Given how the simple forms are often not even done all too terribly well in the first place, I have to lean towards the latter.

[Closet_Skeleton]

I think the main reason people hate 'pop/mainstream' music is because they have their own music they like and get annoyed when random people expect them to like the latest fad.

I personally really hate songs with only one verse they repeat again and again.

[Midnight Son]

As I've mentioned before, I detest Fall Out Boy and some of these other really popular bands today, but it has nothing to do with how well they play their instruments. I am not a trained musician. I played trumpet for two years in grade school and can play the piano at about one note per ten seconds as it takes me that long to figure out what piano key the note on the paper corresponds to. I want to learn the guitar, but have other, more important things, to occupy my time first. All this is to say that I like what sounds good to me. I care not if a musician plays particularly well or with any skill or whatever. If I like it, I listen to it. It is art whether I like it or not. Anybody who can put two chords together and make a beat is an artist. Whether they're good or talented or not has nothing to do with it.

As to the cookie cutter issue, so what? I think the Mona Lisa is a fairly bland painting, but anyone skilled enough to copy it is an artist. For that matter, if two people both paint with their bodies and both find their preferred brush to be their face, is the second one a hack because they saw the first, liked it and copied it?

[FdL]

Pop music as we know it begins with The Beatles. A different thing in my book than just everything that's opposed to classical.
In my mind I have a clear distinction of what's "pop" music and what's "popular music".

[Amotis]

Baroque music WAS the music of the masses during the baroque period. Sacred music exists in all periods of music, and the street music of any given time was the popular music of whatever generation happened to be playing it at the time.

Your definition may suit your purposes, and is of a trivial nature i agree, but the way in which you support your opinions with somewhat vague, innacurate facts is what leads me to comment.

Street music was the pop music of whatever time it was played in? ...ummm yes! That...kinda...was...my point...

And meh, I don't wanna have the same pointless argument that happens every single first week of a pop music class. It's a bad word, as we were both to point out, because it doesn't mean much. Popular to who? Popular when? Etc etc. People like using your definition but then it never really leads to anything...just more arguing. Mine, even though not much better, can be at least be used to allude to somethg ("Pop music includes the ragtime era" or something like that) and is basically kinda accepted. Pop music = not classical. Classical music = not pop. Popular music not specifically meaning the pop style of music and classical music not specifically meaning the classical period of music.


The creation of a good song involves some actual creation. Making up some riffs and playing them over a ii-V-I progression can sound good, but it certainly isn't a whole lot in the way of creativity... and most don't even manage to sound good. On the unhappy occasions when I'm forced to listen to the pop radio stations that play the same songs every hour, sometimes twice an hour, then I find I would much rather be off playing Pachelbel's Canon in D... which you will know, if you know anything about the more popular classical music at all, sucks to play as a bassist or cellist. Same eight notes. Fifty four times. Almost as bad as Bolero. Actually, it bears a remarkable resemblance to modern pop; a bunch of fancy riffs on top of a total waste of the lower-pitched instruments. Rob Paravonian put that one better, and funnier, than I ever could. (http://youtube.com/watch?v=JdxkVQy7QLM)

And perhaps you missed the part where I specifically said I'm not too terribly good at the bass. That's the giveaway. When an amateur can do what you the professional are doing, you're not trying hard enough.

Edit: And it gets even better. Ever listen to Weird Al Yankovic? His stuff is not only hilarious; most of the time it's musically better played than the original recordings. Parody being better quality than the original: Strike two.

And not really getting involved in this argument 'cause Nightmarenny seems literate enough to defend his own position (even though it was off to a rough start. No? What? No post should ever end with no...), Pachelbel and Ravel used quite a few complex compositional techniques. Listed and not limited to; counterpoint, melodic and motive curves, modulation, harmonic sequencing, harmonic generation of the melody, broader and very notably experimental things for their respective time periods. Both pieces were early targets for when I was learning (still am) Schenkerian analysis. And let me tell you, those pieces are far from simple and even further from claims that they aren't creative.

But yeah, continue your arguing or whatever it was.

[Renegade Paladin]

I know Pachelbel (and yes, his first name was in fact Johann :smalltongue:) used complex melody and countermelody, but the point is that they all have the same chords. The Canon in D is a great piece of music; it is just boring as hell to play on my instrument, hence there's not much in normal life I'd rather not be doing than playing it. The same cannot be said of music that relies on power chords and not much else.

[Amotis]

Same chords? Same key maybe...but that's pretty standard. He did quite a few things with those same chords. He uses five literally different variations of the key of D and many many things dealing with the switching of the root, 3rd, and 5th of the chord between the four voices throughout the piece. As well as the literal canon nature of the piece creating many chord-like harmonization throughout the piece.

Just be glad it's not a true canon, which would just be a unison over the bottom voice.

[Nightmarenny]

I didn't say it must be complicated to be good; I said that if an entire broad category of music can't be bothered to do anything but copy itself, there are problems. You have to wonder after a certain point: Do these artists play basic stuff because they just don't want to use more variety to their forms, or because they can't? Given how the simple forms are often not even done all too terribly well in the first place, I have to lean towards the latter.
At the moment I haven't the will to continue arguing so I'm just hear because I'd like to ask two things.

1)Does anyone have proof that Rap is still popular? I don't know a single person that really likes it anymore. Every tv show seems to get a rap opener and various sources say they are but I don't see them premoting things and haven't heard anything when a rapper was releasing a album for about a year. Does anyone have sales figures to varify their popularity?

2)Isn't the Bass a naturaly boring instument?:smallwink:

[Amotis]

1) Rap is popular. I like some rap. And it's pretty apparently in the mainstream. It's just called hip hop. Hip hop was one of the best selling genres in 2000
and it's gone very international. Since the billboard charts have just become "which artist makes the most money" sorta thing (read: hyperbole), just look at that. here (http://www.billboard.com/bbcom/charts/chart_display.jsp?g=Singles&f=The+Billboard+Hot+100)

2) Victor Wooten and Paul Chambers to name to random gods.

[Nightmarenny]

1) Rap is popular. I like some rap. And it's pretty apparently in the mainstream. It's just called hip hop. Hip hop was one of the best selling genres in 2000
and it's gone very international. Since the billboard charts have just become "which artist makes the most money" sorta thing (read: hyperbole), just look at that. here (http://www.billboard.com/bbcom/charts/chart_display.jsp?g=Singles&f=The+Billboard+Hot+100)

2) Victor Wooten and Paul Chambers to name to random gods.
huh. Well I haven't noticed it for awhile.

As a complete side note
Gym Class Heroes Featuring Patrick Stump (http://www.billboard.com/bbcom/bio/index.jsp?JSESSIONID=Jj1RFzpD80L2LBKlBdN2kSBFXV3KG DHvT27hQ5vS5yJQt21JSJ8n!-1532566127&pid=647857)


I wonder what prick disided on that.

P.S. 2)was a joke.

[Amotis]

Oh sorry, I wasn't really paying attention to the context, just saw the question and wanted to answer it.

[Renegade Paladin]

You have quite obviously never heard anyone play Dragonetti's concerto for double bass. :smallwink:

[Ted_Stryker]

On the popularity of rap, I think it's also worth noting that, to date, seven of Tupac Shakur's posthumously released albums have gone platinum (1 million+ sales):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupac_Shakur#Discography

Dude's been dead for over a decade now.

[Beleriphon]

Dude's been dead for over a decade now.

Reported dead for over a decade. Him and Elvis are rocking out in their secret Antarctic Fortress of Rockitude right now.,

As for rap I'm not really that big a fan of modern rap. I'll take NWA and Public Enemy any day. Those were guys that had something to say, and what they had to say wasn't something anybody in mainstream media wanted to here.

[Orzel]

Rap is very popular. Many well known rappers have more than 1 multi-platinum album.

As Brooklyn native ("BROOKLYN" see location), whether or not you notice a music genre where you live does not resemble its popularity worldwide. If it did, rock didn't become popular 'til 1997.

*goes back to playing the same note over and over on bass*

"Tupac's a necromanceeeer. He loves the uuuuundeaaad"

[Nightmarenny]

Rap is very popular. Many well known rappers have more than 1 multi-platinum album.

As Brooklyn native ("BROOKLYN" see location), whether or not you notice a music genre where you live does not resemble its popularity worldwide. If it did, rock didn't become popular 'til 1997.

*goes back to playing the same note over and over on bass*

"Tupac's a necromanceeeer. He loves the uuuuundeaaad"Its certainly been popular but I think its popularity may be waning.

[Orzel]

Not really. It's just not the "super cool" thing anymore. Rappers aren't dropping 5 singles at a time.

[Nightmarenny]

Not really. It's just not the "super cool" thing anymore. Rappers aren't dropping 5 singles at a time.Thats sorta what I mean. They will still have their place but its looking like they wont be the thing to obsesse about anymore.

[Orzel]

That's no different than any genre of music when it's "new" and "cool". Rap was so dramatic because the cool popular song could be VERY different from tracks 2-8.

[NecroPaladin]

I think the lesson here is "you don't need to be an emo or to have grown up in the 'hood' to sell an extortionate amount of merchandise to people who really are like that." I mean, the biggest emo pissant I know keeps insisting that My Chemical Romance is still an unpopular indie group struggling to get by, and that their music reflects their true hardship. Likewise, many rappers grew up in suburbia.

I don't hate the music, because it's just music. I may reject a song, but that's just because it's not in my particular tastes.

What I hate is that they market their message more than their songs.

[Beleriphon]

Likewise, many rappers grew up in suburbia.


See NWA and Public Enemy, of course neither are active groups any more. Also some of the biggest names in rap didn't grow in suburbia. 50 Cent (as much as I dislike his music) was raised in South Queens, by his grandparents, have his mother was murdered in a drug dispute. The man is a walking stereotype, which he has managed to parlay into huge success.

In many ways thats kind of the point of rap.Its celebrating the success of men and women who started with nothing and ended up with vast fortunes and immense success. At least thats one of the current feelings about rap and hip-hop.

I still prefer rap when it was about a bunch of guys that took **** from everybody, every day (twice on Sunday) and were happy to tell the world exactly what they thought about the situation. There is a reason that Straight Outta Compton caused such a huge stir, the things that NWA rapped about on that album were entirely real.

As for what our original topic was, none of the bands are particularly emo. I do find Fallout Boy to be a bunch of whiny losers though. Still some of their music videos are pretty fun.

[NecroPaladin]

Many rappers, sir. Many. Not all. I am quite familiar with 50 Cent's background.

And again, I got nothing against emo bands, just their merchandisers.

[LordOfNarf]

I have...interesting..tastes in music.

I listen to alot of punk/pop/indie rock on my CD's, inculding all three bands listed in the OP, I listen to rap and pop on the radio, and acassionally break out my not inextensive classical music selections.

However one thing I truly cannot abide is anything about the mucisians I listen to beyond the music. I refuse faltly to go to concerts, and I never watch music videos. When the news breaks out a husge story highlighting the band or even showing their picture, I mute the TW and leave the room. Or change the channel.

One thing I cannot understand about people is when they obsess over the band's personal life as if it were more improtant than teh music. I just don't care I understand that bands didn't get into the music making business to suffer and just eke by for all of existence, they went there because THEY CAN GET RICH. They don't want to be as whiny and self pitying as their listeners are and wish the band would be.

Another thing I cannot understand is when people hate songs for their lyrics, ans if a good story detracted form the song. This may have a large part to do with the fact that I am mildly tone deaf, and the music is not as interesting to me as the story it tells. For this reason, I like songs with actual themes or stories in them, and a refrain that is not repeated too often or to annoyingly. I tend to think that when a song it bout two lines of actual story, and a refrain reapeated about eight hundred times it means that they could not come up with good material and just filled the two minutes with the same two lines over and over again.

Bottom line: I don't care about the muscians life outside the music I buy, and I they stop producing music I like, I'll vote with my dollars and not buy their stuff anymore.

[Quirinus_Obsidian]

I never liked getting into the middle of a music discussion because much of the time it becomes a flame-fest, and the thread has to be closed. Thankfully it has not happened here! :smallsmile:

I do have to provide my 2 copper pieces. Music is so important to people, that they are willing to argue, violetly, for hours to defend what they like. This goes for the guy that listens to Polka; or the girl down the street that can't get enough Slayer, or the trio of gangsta's that come by weekly. We fight about it so mch because it is something that affects our soul (if you beleive in the concept). It makes us laugh, and cry, gives us a lift when we are sad, and helps us to relax after a stressful event. People are so feverent about it because of these things. I just leave it at this; if you are if one is so rabid about a certain band or genre of music, let it be "pop", or emocore (I love that term!), symphonic metal, progressive, or what have you, go out and BUY the CD (yes support the band) and listen to it. If someone around you does not like it, then do not turn it up louder. Get some freakin headphones. If you enjoy it and it moves you, then go for it. It's all you.

Personally I am more partial towards the more technical side of music; the "so awesome they are insane which makes them great" Dream Theater, Lacuna Coil, Nightwish, old Metallica (Ok, some of the newer stuff too), et cetera.

[geek_2049]

I have an anti-pop backlash theory. The people who destest pop music grew up with pop music like Backstreet Boys, Britney Spears etc. They learn as they approach adulthood that they are unique individuals, but the bands they enjoyed in their youth were mainstream and unoriginal. As they get older they want to express themselves in a unique way to demonstrate that they are in fact unique.

[FdL]

The bass is such a cool instrument in all its incarnations. I can speak of the electric bass guitar because I play it. I've been playing it for years (I don't study, I'm self taught), and I really love the instrument and its role in popular music in general and in "rock" music in particular. I understand that some people don't get it, but I enjoy playing bass within a rock context, even if it means playing the same single note over and over krautrock-style.
Listen to Yo La Tengo's "Moby Octopad". Such a groovy bassline, it's so sexy and it's so fun to play. Listen also to their longer, more drony "Night Falls on Hoboken". Pretty minimalistic, also such fun to play, to be part of the hypnotic rhytm that dissolves the song as time passes.

I play guitar too but my first love was the bass, even before I actually had one I played my first basslines when I found that little beat-up guitar in my grandma's house. Thanks to that event now I can call myself a musician (although not a real one and a sucky one at best, but a musician at heart where I think it and music matter).

I remember I always enjoyed listening to the bass (I still do). Bands like R.E.M., which was one of my first loves (earlier stuff, not the bland stuff they put out nowadays) have very interesting bass parts underlying their mainly guitar-oriented sound. Throwing Muses have always had brilliant, original and challenging bass parts, and I've always wandered if this was entirely Kristin Hersh's unique songwriting or to bass player Leslie Langston's own talent (later Bernard Georges). Just listen to songs like "No parachutes" or anything before their 1995 album to see what I mean.


My Chemical Romance is crap. There's nothing to like in My Chemical Romance's music. There's nothing original in their music. There's probably lots of artist who have done better what they are doing, even within the dreadful "emo" genre-tag. There's probably lots of artists who have had more success at making money oriented crap music before them, even with the teenager target in sight.
So my opinion is that you are listening to them you are wasting your time and should question why you listen to them, as you probably listen to them just because they are promoted by the corporations and through promotion you're fooled into believing they make good music.

Speaking of bass guitar and good music, today I've been listening to Mike Watt's "Ball-Hog or Tugboat" album, which is amazing and has an incredible amount of collaborations from the alternative world.

[Nightmarenny]

My Chemical Romance is crap. There's nothing to like in My Chemical Romance's music. There's nothing original in their music. There's probably lots of artist who have done better what they are doing, even within the dreadful "emo" genre-tag. There's probably lots of artists who have had more success at making money oriented crap music before them, even with the teenager target in sight.
So my opinion is that you are listening to them you are wasting your time and should question why you listen to them, as you probably listen to them just because they are promoted by the corporations and through promotion you're fooled into believing they make good music.
.
I just love it when people state an opinion as fact and then try to claim that they wern't:smallamused:

[Jorkens]

First lets get a side note out of the way. Whether music is art really depends on the person and the artist. Some record companies do horde money, that is indisputible. That however has nothing to do with whether the product is "art" because they only sell it. Saying music ain't art because its being sold by a greedy jerks is like saying the same for painting and Gallery owners who are not going to be any better. What matters is what the artist puts into the piece.
It's interesting how much music that is now considered Art was originally produced with purely commercial motives in mind - Motown, early jungle and virtually the whole history of jamaican music spring to mind. Under certain conditions, people seem to decide that the easiest way to sell more records (or get more people to your dance or whatever) is just to make better and more original music than the next guy. And a lot of the time, making great music to make piles of money (or eat and stay alive) seems to actually be a stronger drive than making great music because you want to.

[Jorkens]

You have quite obviously never heard anyone play Dragonetti's concerto for double bass. :smallwink:
*shudders* Classical solo rep for double bass is not my favorite thing ever.

To be fair, I've not heard the Dragonetti, but everything else I've heard or played has been fairly second rate - about the best thing going is Psy by Luciano Berio which is a) a little over a minute long and b) far too hard for me. *returns to Bach cello suites (number one, an octave down with a few of the double stops fiddled)*

[Amotis]

Two random things:

1) Reading and Leeds Festival. My Chemical Romance being boo'd, hiss'd, and bottled on stage. Piss bottles too, nasty.

The underdog and total unknown (then), Arctic Monkeys, rocked the stage and packed the tents more then anyone could remember in a long time.

Seriously, that's the kinda music review we should always use.

2) I remember a story about Son House, an old delta blues men, one of the originals, disappearing for 16 years from the music scene for no real reason. He is found and convinced to play again because he's low on money, the only reason. He hates the road but wants the money. Which was basically the mantra for the bluesmen back then. Money and women (emphasis on the latter). I don't think "art" was anywhere near their minds.

[Nightmarenny]

Two random things:

1) Reading and Leeds Festival. My Chemical Romance being boo'd, hiss'd, and bottled on stage. Piss bottles too, nasty.

The underdog and total unknown (then), Arctic Monkeys, rocked the stage and packed the tents more then anyone could remember in a long time.

Seriously, that's the kinda music review we should always use.

2) I remember a story about Son House, an old delta blues men, one of the originals, disappearing for 16 years from the music scene for no real reason. He is found and convinced to play again because he's low on money, the only reason. He hates the road but wants the money. Which was basically the mantra for the bluesmen back then. Money and women (emphasis on the latter). I don't think "art" was anywhere near their minds.I heard about that. I think though that some of those people must have not liked MCR from the start seeing as, well who the hell brings jars of urine to a concert:smallconfused:

[Amotis]

Bottles of urine. Aka, drink the water/beer, piss in the bottle, throw at face.

I've seen them live (What? I was working at the concert place...don't blame me...) and they are really lacking in that department. And it wasn't just that show because I saw them in a smaller gig later that year and that one was horrible too. I think they rely on pro tools a bit too much for their own good.

[Nightmarenny]

Bottles of urine. Aka, drink the water/beer, piss in the bottle, throw at face.

I've seen them live (What? I was working at the concert place...don't blame me...) and they are really lacking in that department. And it wasn't just that show because I saw them in a smaller gig later that year and that one was horrible too. I think they rely on pro tools a bit too much for their own good.
A fact that seems fairly constistant with every band I hear of. Man, if I ever make it big the first thing I'll drive my mates insanewith will be getting them to practice live playing.

[Amotis]

Nah, I've seen some blow-your-melted-face-off live shows in my time. Ones that I'll never forget.

Some bands just rock live...some bands just wallow in their own poo...

[Nightmarenny]

Anyway I don't like to spend alot of time defending bands so I'll just say this.

My Chemical Romance is one of the few bands I know in modern times that have complicated lead guitar. I like the sound of the lead and find it entertaining. Along with that I like the stories they tell and the way they do(Rock opera's are my favorite kind of album). They may not have done anything first or the best but I think they do it well. I enjoy it and thats all I can say.

[Amotis]

I just love it when people state an opinion as fact and then try to claim that they wern't:smallamused:



My Chemical Romance is one of the few bands I know in modern times that have complicated lead guitar. I like the sound of the lead and find it entertaining. Along with that I like the stories they tell and the way they do(Rock opera's are my favorite kind of album). They may not have done anything first or the best but I think they do it well. I enjoy it and thats all I can say.

Hmmm....:smallamused:

[Nightmarenny]

Hmmm....:smallamused:
hmmmmm:smallconfused:

[Amotis]

Mmmmmhmmmm. :smallsigh:

[Nightmarenny]

Mmmmmhmmmm. :smallsigh:
The only thing I said as fact was that MCR has complicated lead. Everything else was I like/Enjoy.

[Amotis]

You probably did. Probably.

(Probably).

[Turcano]

Exactly what it sounds like.

Kay, history lesson kiddies.

The firsts of rock and roll; Elvis, Carl Perkins, Jerry Lee Lewis, Johnny Cash, Muddy Waters, etc. They got their music out and America took it up. America's youth anyway, the adults hated it. But then, all those artist suddenly disappeared. Got drafted, married their 14 year old cousin, died, went to jail, etc. So now the music industry is without all their top stars. All around the same time

So now the big buisnesses and record companies took over. They started doing this thing called American Bandstand. Where they basically went on the streets, looked for a cute guy, any guy didn't have to have any musical talent, put him on stage, wrong songs for him, and he lip synced. America ate it up. It was something that the whole family could watch, unlike the rockers from before. Teen Idols became rampart. These were guys with little or no talent, didn't write their music, and were basically hired for their looks. The Brill Building was this huge building with cubicles (CUBICLES!) with a piano inside each one of them. Teams of songwriters would sit in there all day and write hits for these teen idols. (Funny thing, all the stuff at that time sounds the same because everyone could hear each other's music because they were only cubicles.)

So basically the only music during this time (besides surf music but that's only in the west) is teen idol, brill building writers, pop chart hits. Songs made to sound like that last hit in hopes of getting another one.

So you can assume how crappy that was.

Why is it that I can't read that without thinking of American Idol? (Except for the singing talent part. Mostly. And the schadenfreude of watching Mike Hung-like also-rans.)


While we're on the subject of killing, you know what kills me? Emo pants. Kids, if you want to wear what are basically tights, that's fine by me. Men have been wearing tights for centuries. But you know what else? They wore tunics over the tights. You know why? NOBODY wanted to see Henry VIII's royal crotch-bulge, seriously. So wear the tights if you must, but please, please, wear a tunic---or at least a doublet--over them. NOBODY wants to see your bobbedy bobbing bulge, OK? Jeez.

Bring back the codpiece!

Except that everyone would buy the extra-large ones.

[Nightmarenny]

You probably did. Probably.

(Probably).
:smallfrown: .......I think you broke my brain

P.S.I hate american idol

[FdL]

People are so screwed up...I wouldn't throw a bottle of piss at any band, not even MCR. But that's just me, I respect people, my parents taught me manners and respect of others. Maybe that is uncommon nowadays.


Anyway I don't like to spend alot of time defending bands so I'll just say this.

My Chemical Romance is one of the few bands I know in modern times that have complicated lead guitar. I like the sound of the lead and find it entertaining. Along with that I like the stories they tell and the way they do(Rock opera's are my favorite kind of album). They may not have done anything first or the best but I think they do it well. I enjoy it and thats all I can say.

Complicated leads? What do you mean by "complicated" and when you say that in "modern times" few bands have "complicated" leads? Can you cite an example of a "complicated lead" that a MCR song has?

[SDF]

Bottles of urine. Aka, drink the water/beer, piss in the bottle, throw at face.

I've seen them live (What? I was working at the concert place...don't blame me...) and they are really lacking in that department. And it wasn't just that show because I saw them in a smaller gig later that year and that one was horrible too. I think they rely on pro tools a bit too much for their own good.

I saw MCR at the Warped Tour and they were the worst live band I have ever seen... they got a bottle of urine thrown at them during that show too... :P The thing is I didn't hate them before I saw them live. They were just terrible.

[Nightmarenny]

People are so screwed up...I wouldn't throw a bottle of piss at any band, not even MCR. But that's just me, I respect people, my parents taught me manners and respect of others. Maybe that is uncommon nowadays.



Complicated leads? What do you mean by "complicated" and when you say that in "modern times" few bands have "complicated" leads? Can you cite an example of a "complicated lead" that a MCR song has?I mean that the magoraty of what I listen to doesn't employ much lead and I like it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8b_h38md4E
One of my favorite song. Dead.

[Amotis]

I paused Fsharp/Asharp/Infinity for that...I hope you're happy.

****er. *stab*

See if I ever click on a link you ever give again...

[Nightmarenny]

I paused Fsharp/Asharp/Infinity for that...I hope you're happy.

****er. *stab*

See if I ever click on a link you ever give again...Hey he asked for an example. You wern't obliged to click

[Amotis]

I was under the impression there was gonna be something different from what I've heard from them previously.

[Nightmarenny]

I was under the impression there was gonna be something different from what I've heard from them previously.
nope just an example of their use of lead.

However if by "what you heard of them is "abit depressing" a more uplifting song is Famous Last Word(it starts of sad but ends with alot of hope)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0_4Ly-_oj4

Of course you probably won't click the link wich is probably fo the best since if you didn't like it I'd be abit sad.

[Amotis]

Nah, I clicked on it, I'm an experimental person. Stupid that way.

Something I've heard previously is basically the power chord progression, a really boring singing style (seriously, I want a melody dude....), and just an overall sound that ...err...sounds the same and bores me.

Hehe, they really like muting the same chord, don't they?

chunkchunkchunnkchunkchunkchunkchunkcchunkchunkcCH UNKCHUNK!
chunkchunkchunnkchunkchunkchunkchunkcchunkchunkcCH UNKCHUNK!
chunkchunkchunnkchunkchunkchunkchunkcchunkchunkcCH UNKCHUNK!


CHORUS!

do do do do do do do (eight notes forever)
de de de de de de de (and ever)

[Midnight Son]

I thought Evanescence was awesome live. Amy had a really good stage presence and, at one point when they had technical difficulties, she kept everyone entertained by interacting with the crowd.

[FdL]

Well, I actually listened to both songs in their entirety. After the first one I must say it was Amotis and her comment on being experimental what spurred me to endure the second.

Ok, then. The lead guitar work is standard at best. That kind of guitarists are a dime a dozen, I'm sad to say. There's nothing there I can like. Even if I enjoyed listening to elecric guitar wanking I wouldn't look for it in MCR.

The first song sounds a lot like Green Day and that kind of bands. Not something I like personally. The other song is even more generic.

A big problem I have with this band and others like "The Rasmus" is that they dress in black and the whole dark/goth/emo look, but that has no relation to their music. I mean, they're no ****in' Bauhaus, so why dress like them?
If at least they made music that was aesthetically related to their image, they'd be coherent. But I remember seeing one video of The Rasmus and thinking "these kids don't have a clue", they dress up like dark, "undead" rock stars and sound bland compared to A-Ha (to whom I seem to relate the aforementioned band, for an unknown reason :p)

To me they're just a bunch of posers, like many teenagers nowadays. I find bands like this to be an example of the blatant way in which the image is sold when there's no content. It's only natural that they suck live. I find all of this insulting...

It's kind of sad that people waste their time listening to bad music when there's such good stuff out there. But then I guess it's a problem of personal maturity or culture or something I can't pinpoint.


PS: Evanescence? Uhhh... :S I really wonder where all these bands would be if there were no music videos and studio wizardry and would have to just play music live and make good records to be noticed...

[Amotis]

Taaaakeee oonnnnn meeEEEEEE! *hits an absurdly high note*

I feel bad about people listening to bad music too. There is really a lot of stuff out there. Hundreds of great artists out there, don't limit yourself.

[Nightmarenny]

Well, I actually listened to both songs in their entirety. After the first one I must say it was Amotis and her comment on being experimental what spurred me to endure the second.

Ok, then. The lead guitar work is standard at best. That kind of guitarists are a dime a dozen, I'm sad to say. There's nothing there I can like. Even if I enjoyed listening to elecric guitar wanking I wouldn't look for it in MCR.

The first song sounds a lot like Green Day and that kind of bands. Not something I like personally. The other song is even more generic.

A big problem I have with this band and others like "The Rasmus" is that they dress in black and the whole dark/goth/emo look, but that has no relation to their music. I mean, they're no ****in' Bauhaus, so why dress like them?
If at least they made music that was aesthetically related to their image, they'd be coherent. But I remember seeing one video of The Rasmus and thinking "these kids don't have a clue", they dress up like dark, "undead" rock stars and sound bland compared to A-Ha (to whom I seem to relate the aforementioned band, for an unknown reason :p)

To me they're just a bunch of posers, like many teenagers nowadays. I find bands like this to be an example of the blatant way in which the image is sold when there's no content. It's only natural that they suck live. I find all of this insulting...

It's kind of sad that people waste their time listening to bad music when there's such good stuff out there. But then I guess it's a problem of personal maturity or culture or something I can't pinpoint.


PS: Evanescence? Uhhh... :S I really wonder where all these bands would be if there were no music videos and studio wizardry and would have to just play music live and make good records to be noticed...
I don't believe anywhere did I ask for a critique on the song. The point was that I like there sound. You can disagree, I don't care.

However that "I think its sad people listen to bad music" bull. I can't stand that. You arn't an expert on taste.

[Amotis]

But man, what about the rest of the music world? There's other stuff out there. Good stuff. Great stuff.

Edito - and seriously, you posted a link for music. No need for permission or whatever.

[Nightmarenny]

But man, what about the rest of the music world? There's other stuff out there. Good stuff. Great stuff.
Ofcourse there is. I constantly find more bands to listen to and love it. David Bowie for example has gotten alot of play in MP3. Aswell as some very nice classical

I just can't stand that insipid way he judges things.

[Amotis]

Well I agree with him, I just haven't said it yet. Does that make his or my words less true?

[Nightmarenny]

Well I agree with him, I just haven't said it yet. Does that make his or my words less true?
Fine you agree. You don't like the music. Fine. Its the way he/you speaks as if his word is absolute truth.

[FdL]

Yeah, sorry if you didn't like it. We're discussing music here. The "critique" was for free, you're welcome. If your idea of posting in a forum is to express your opinion without intention of enriching yourself with that of others, then there's no point in this thread you started and your further comments about MCR.

And though by no means I'm not an "expert in taste", if there's such thing, you clearly aren't either, by what you express yourself when you say you like MCR.

I'm guessing you can understand the concept that though you like MCR there's better music out there. There's some stuff that I like that I don't consider to be very good, I think it's important to keep perspective and to separate subjectivenes from fact (ie, X band I like is not the best in the world, it's just that I like it).

If the original question of your post was why people hate these kind of bands, well for MCR the answer is clear: they don't make good music and they are blatantly commercial.

Edit: I don't say anything as if it's an absolute truth. I don't think you're actually understanding how this conversation develops, otherwise you wouldn't take it as something personal and get all riled up.

[Amotis]

No, but you speak as if he was trying to take your firstborn from you. He wasn't attacking you man.

[Nightmarenny]

No, but you speak as if he was trying to take your firstborn from you. He wasn't attacking you man.
I know. Im admittidly easily irked.

[Nightmarenny]

Look I hold no no false beliefs that MCR is the best group ever and don't really no what I'm argueing about anymore.

[Amotis]

You'know what? On second thought I know exactly why. I'm sorry for wasting everyones time. Its clear that the answer is just "their people, they have strong opinion over superphicial thing(as do I, as I can see from re-reading my previous posts) I suppose I have a natural tendancies to try to find a better answer when faced with that answer since I honnestly hate that one.

Kinda ironic that you would find the answer to your own question by observing the way you acted while being confronted.

[Nightmarenny]

Kinda ironic that you would find the answer to your own question by observing the way you acted while being confronted.
Yeah I hate irony

[Samiam303]

Man, I love having other people show up and take over the arguing so I don't have to do it. :biggrin:

[Nightmarenny]

However aparantly Pete Wentz has already confirmed that..


Its kinda like a state of the union of Fall Out Boy, The girl is a metaphore for something larger.

*Rasberry*

[Midnight Son]

PS: Evanescence? Uhhh... :S I really wonder where all these bands would be if there were no music videos and studio wizardry and would have to just play music live and make good records to be noticed...
Heh, I'd be the first to admit their guitar work needs some help, especially on The Open Door. It's like she stopped asking for help with the guitar writing bits after Ben left. As for playing live to be noticed, has that really happened much since the advent of MTV? Sure, they'll get noticed by insiders first, then signed. But the majority of most bands sales come after the first big release and video. This is exactly what happend to Evanescence by the way. They had a very limited release CD that got them noticed by the right people. I still maintain that Amy knows how to rock live.

As I stated before, though, I like music cause it sounds good to me. I have very little musical training. They have to have some decent sound, good lyrics, and the rest I just call presence.

[Amotis]

I always thought bands like Evanescence and Nightwish guitar work was just a glorified "HURRAHHHH!!! LES PAUL!!! CHOOOOOORRRD!!! SUUUUSSTAINED! TO THE MAX!! HAIR IN WIND!! ROOOOCCKKKK!!! HURRUAAAHHHHH!!!!" sorta thing.

edito - oh and "DIIIIISSSSTORTION!!!! NEWRRRRR!!!"

[Midnight Son]

You would know. I happen to like it. It's her voice that draws me the most, though. I find it hauntingly beautiful.

[Shadow of the Sun]

Too bad Tajra left :(

To throw my two cents into this bundle of change roughly worth $300, i would say I do not like Green Day and MCR because I do not like the genre. I do not generally like what is played on the radio, because it is generally of a genre I don't like. But that isn't the be all and end all: I can like any genre of music provided they do it well- one of my favourite ever local bands is pop/emo.

I like many different genres of music, just the style that MCR and Green Day play just doesn't interest me overmuch- granted, they have some good stuff buried in there, but all in all, I don't like them.

[Closet_Skeleton]

I always thought bands like Evanescence and Nightwish guitar work was just a glorified "HURRAHHHH!!! LES PAUL!!! CHOOOOOORRRD!!! SUUUUSSTAINED! TO THE MAX!! HAIR IN WIND!! ROOOOCCKKKK!!! HURRUAAAHHHHH!!!!" sorta thing.

edito - oh and "DIIIIISSSSTORTION!!!! NEWRRRRR!!!"

I'm entirely influenced by my hypercritical father on this point but Nightwish's guitar work isn't actually that good.

Evanesense screams too much for me. Well, it IS singing rather than screaming (they aren't punk) but it gives the impression of whiny screaming. I don't want to pay money to hear good singers pretending to be bad singers. I also keep forgetting what that word actually means.

[FdL]

I always thought bands like Evanescence and Nightwish guitar work was just a glorified "HURRAHHHH!!! LES PAUL!!! CHOOOOOORRRD!!! SUUUUSSTAINED! TO THE MAX!! HAIR IN WIND!! ROOOOCCKKKK!!! HURRUAAAHHHHH!!!!" sorta thing.

edito - oh and "DIIIIISSSSTORTION!!!! NEWRRRRR!!!"

I believe they call it "RAWK" and it's accompanied by something called "headbanging" :p It's a kinda basic sound, which is why it does nothing to me. I can understand why teenagers like it and my guess is all this music is aimed towards them. (7 string guitars?? huh??)

I tend to dislike nu-metal derived music for this. I don't like Evanescence, even if they are somewhat above MCR in terms of quality. I think all I said about the image of a band outweighing the quality of the artistic view they offer applies to Evanescence as well.

If I think about it, I'm really starting to have a problem with this. I think that it's a little weird that so much importance is given to image when when talking about music artists. But I know this is beyond what's actually in the cd, it's not even important because once you are convinced of buying it you've already bought the real product, which is the image.
You've seen the video, you are made to think they're cool.
I think they call it hype, basically what they sell is a big bag full of hot air. All surface, with no depth.

All said, Evanescence was successful in reaching the target audience of teenager girls with their emo-light, goth-light, rock-light radio friendly sound.

[Aurric]

I can explain this one easily.

All three of the bands you mentioned have woken me up through basically an entire Spring and Summer when my sister would haul her fat ass to the computer down in the basement (where I normally sleep) and start blasting Greenday and that other crap at full volume at 8:00 IN THE MORNING.

That was how I learned it was my destiny--my holy mission--to track down and violently murder Greenday.

But seriously, I just hate bands who have a singer who sounds like he hasn't done with puberty yet.

Just after it was released onto radio, I heard Boulevard of Broken Dreams fourteen times in one straight twelve hour trip from Pennsylvania to Virginia Beach, when I had no control over the radio.

I can say, with every ounce of earnest in my body, that if I had met Billy Joe Armstrong that day, I would probably have his vocal folds in a jar on my desk right now. In reality, I really like Green Day, just an "at the moment" thing.

See, the problem here is, I like pretty much all music. Of course, there are a few exceptions, but there really is no genre you can throw at me that I don't like. Opera, death metal, bluegrass... I love it all. I'm a bit of a music junkie, myself.

Some people just like to pigeonhole "scenes" and beat on them. Any music some people characterize as "emo" gains their scorn. Or "punk", or "metal", or whatever the flavor of the month is. As someone who likely identifies mostly as a yuppie activist, I have more disdain for the "emo-haters" than I do for the "emo" people. *shrug* I guess it's just perspective.

[Amotis]

You like skiffle?

Who the **** likes skiffle?

John Lennon, that's who.

**** John Lennon.

[Midnight Son]

I believe they call it "RAWK" and it's accompanied by something called "headbanging" :p It's a kinda basic sound, which is why it does nothing to me. I can understand why teenagers like it and my guess is all this music is aimed towards them. (7 string guitars?? huh??)

I tend to dislike nu-metal derived music for this. I don't like Evanescence, even if they are somewhat above MCR in terms of quality. I think all I said about the image of a band outweighing the quality of the artistic view they offer applies to Evanescence as well.

If I think about it, I'm really starting to have a problem with this. I think that it's a little weird that so much importance is given to image when when talking about music artists. But I know this is beyond what's actually in the cd, it's not even important because once you are convinced of buying it you've already bought the real product, which is the image.
You've seen the video, you are made to think they're cool.
I think they call it hype, basically what they sell is a big bag full of hot air. All surface, with no depth.

All said, Evanescence was successful in reaching the target audience of teenager girls with their emo-light, goth-light, rock-light radio friendly sound.
Ummm...what are you saying here about me and all of my male, non-emo, mid-twenties to thirties friends? We all enjoy their music. For the record, I heard their music first. I saw the video after. I don't find over half the music out there right now cool, yet I've seen their videos. By your logic, since I've seen them, I must be brainwashed into thinking they're all cool.

[FdL]

Ummm...what are you saying here about me and all of my male, non-emo, mid-twenties to thirties friends? We all enjoy their music. For the record, I heard their music first. I saw the video after. I don't find over half the music out there right now cool, yet I've seen their videos. By your logic, since I've seen them, I must be brainwashed into thinking they're all cool.

I said that I can understand why teenagers like it. You can like it and be 40 years old, but let's face it, teenagers are more easily impressed/manipulated/hyped. Don't you agree? You know, people are making lots of money based on this fact :D

My point is that their image is an inseparable part of their aesthetic, and music is just another part. And that's just the way the music industry acts nowadays: videos, promotion, flattening and standarisation of an artist's individuality for the sake of selling to the widest audience possible, keeping it easy, simple, friendly and in line with the establishment. Of course there are exceptions, but that seems to be the norm for corporations and Big Labels.

I'm not saying you've been brainwashed, but yeah, it is something like that :) Hey, I've been brainwashed too! I remember buying that Ace of Base cd back then :D LOL

[Midnight Son]

Wait. Now you have a problem with Ace of Base? :smallyuk:

What you say makes sense. I personally feel that Evanescence doesn't fit a perfect mold. Too many people say, no they're goth, no they're emo, no they're christian, or whatever. They're also not on a big label. At least I hadn't heard of Wind Up before them anyway.

As for teenagers; most are easily swayed, I agree. On the other hand, it meant I got a better view at their show, since the "able to drink" section wasn't packed like a buncha sardines. I was on the balcony, even with the front of the stage, looking down with two short people in front of me. Had a perfect view of every move they made. Man they rocked that house!

[Amotis]

Wind Up itself is small but Sony distributes them.

[Midnight Son]

Stupid big corporations trying to pass themselves off as small...

[Pyre]

I like sooo many different forms of music it's not even funny. But quite often I'll only like a song, or a handful from a group and dislike the rest. I actually like Black Parade by MCR. HATED those songs the guy linked to. All opinion.

I agree somewhat with the guy who dislikes it when people preach opinion as fact. To say that so in so is 'better' than so and so cause they have sold out/play too simple/play too complicated/sound kinda like this other band/don't use live monkeys in their shows, or whatever, is opinion. 'Better' to you might not be 'better' to me.

And several people on this thread have some off as sooo condescending, not naming names of course. Just some posts have a tone of "Well, you like that and thats perfectly fine. It's just not as good as what I like." B A L O N E Y
Maybe they were meant that way, but sure did come off like it.


I also don't care what motivates someone to make a song, as long as I like the song. It doesn't matter if they made a song because their dog commanded them to. Long as I like it. :)

[Samiam303]

Again Pyre, what you've gotta keep in mind is that nobody is saying that they're righter then anyone else. We're just answering the original question, which was why some of us hate certain bands/genera.

[Nightmarenny]

Again Pyre, what you've gotta keep in mind is that nobody is saying that they're righter then anyone else. We're just answering the original question, which was why some of us hate certain bands/genera.

It's kind of sad that people waste their time listening to bad music when there's such good stuff out there. But then I guess it's a problem of personal maturity or culture or something I can't pinpoint.


PS: Evanescence? Uhhh... :S I really wonder where all these bands would be if there were no music videos and studio wizardry and would have to just play music live and make good records to be noticed...
BULL.

Sigh can't end a post with one word even though i'd be more powerful. So here are the lyrics to "In the Melody" by Wheatus.


That night that you got on a plane to Los Angeles I turned back into the me that I was
That guy that would go out to buy a new porno and come back with twenty...the pervert you love
And as I drove I remembered that you made a tape
For me to play if I ever had a lonely day
I slipped it in and the Stereophonics came on singing about matches
Well at least someone still believes in the melody
I, I think that I've heard it already but I
I think that I must admit that as bad as it gets
Someone still believes
The sound of American radio's making me feel like I just killed my mom and my dad
These pop songs are meant to be simple so people who make them we take them and break them in half
But as I drove I remembered that you made a tape
For me to play if I my ears were ever being raped
I slipped it in and the Tragically Hip came on singing about matches
Well at least someone still believes in the melody
I, I think that I've heard it already but I
I think that I must admit that as bad as it gets
Someone still believes

WhhoooAAAAAAWhhooo

Well at least someone still believes in the melody
I, I think that I've heard it already but I
I think that I must admit that as bad as it gets
Someone still believes

[Amotis]

Hey, let's quote your reactions on this thread too! And then let's place passive-aggressive statements after it! And not explain them! Yay!

[Nightmarenny]

Hey, let's quote your reactions on this thread too! And then let's place passive-aggressive statements after it! And not explain them! Yay!There was nothing passive agressive about that. That was more a friendly jab in the arm(Would a smiliy help?) pointing to a post that showed someone doing what samiam303 said, hadn't happened. I'm sorry if it wasn't self-explanatory I don't have a good grasp of how much to write for people to understand, I tend to go for the minimilist way.

[FdL]

Nightmarenny, you're definitely the worst supporter of your own point of view. And to be honest I don't like your "tantrum then edit out" posting strategies, nor do I like you replying to posts with things like "BULL".

If you or anyone has an opinion that differs from mine all I ask is to explain it in a clear and civil way so it can be considered a valid contribution to this friendly discussion. Otherwise it's just hot air and a waste of time.

Besides, what does that song you quote have to do with anything? The way I see it the bad stuff on the radio he refers to are things like MCR.

I also think Stereophonics are overrated. That's the expression of a personal opinion, not an axiom, mind you :p

[Samiam303]

Guys, everyone chill out. Nightmarenny, I'm sorry not everyone's been level headed and calm. Perhaps you can set a better example for us? I can only speak for myself, and hadn't noticed anything like that.

And agreeing with Fdl, what does that song have to do with anything? :confused:


There was nothing passive agressive about that. That was more a friendly jab in the arm(Would a smiliy help?) pointing to a post that showed someone doing what samiam303 said, hadn't happened. I'm sorry if it wasn't self-explanatory I don't have a good grasp of how much to write for people to understand, I tend to go for the minimilist way.
I think attempting to post nothing but "BULL" makes it pretty self-explanatory what you're trying to say. :mad:


I just wanna end this post by saying SERIOUSLY, try to back up your arguments with LOGIC, please. We understand that you disagree with us, we understand what you like and dislike. Now can you try to coherently explain WHY?

[Nightmarenny]

Guys, everyone chill out. Nightmarenny, I'm sorry not everyone's been level headed and calm. Perhaps you can set a better example for us? I can only speak for myself, and hadn't noticed anything like that.

And agreeing with Fdl, what does that song have to do with anything? :confused:


I think attempting to post nothing but "BULL" makes it pretty self-explanatory what you're trying to say. :mad:


I just wanna end this post by saying SERIOUSLY, try to back up your arguments with LOGIC, please. We understand that you disagree with us, we understand what you like and dislike. Now can you try to coherently explain WHY?Sorry, that was not my intention. I felt quoting someone saying that "nobody is saying that they're righter then anyone else" and then quoting someone saying that they are "righter" was clear. With the "BULL" only there cause I needed something. I'm sorry if it was not or if it was interpreted it as hostile. It was not meant to be.

As for the song. Well It wont let you make a one word post and that song has a vague connection as it chastises current music for not being melodic.

[Samiam303]

...So doesn't that kinda go against the point you've been trying to argue? :confused:

[Nightmarenny]

...So doesn't that kinda go against the point you've been trying to argue? :confused:Hm? How so?

[Maerok]

U2 (Warning: Maddox) (http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=11worst)

[Amotis]

U2 should of stopped at Joshua Tree. And never made albums before. U2 should of made one album; Joshua Tree.

[FdL]

Hey! What about Achtung Baby? And there's good stuff before, in the early records.

But yeah, in general I agree with what you said. They should have stopped making records a while ago. Actually they sort of have; they're not making new music :p

[Amotis]

I always point to U2 when I show people what rock looks like when you take yourself too seriously. LOOK PEOPLE! DON'T LET IT HAPPEN TO YOU!

[FdL]

Exactly. Because their career has reached a point in which the music doesn't matter IMHO. They don't need to make it.
And don't get me started on Bono's messianic thing...

[Amotis]

I don't get The Edge. That's suck a lame moniker it hurts.

[FdL]

It's too 80's hahahaha :D
But he sure can play his stuff, and he really has a sound of its own. He's too good for U2.

[Amotis]

He's the songwritter too. So you can hail or hurt him. Or both (at the same time).

[FdL]

Oh, then it's a shame. He's got something but he consciously wastes it.
I just love the bouncy shimmering tone of his guitar in songs like "Where the streets have no name".

[Amotis]

Indeed. He seems to really know how to match the timbre with the mood/style of the song. Even sometimes with Bono's vocals. Like "bullet the blue sky" (haha we're naming only joshua tree songs...okay...one...that's a good song...)

[FdL]

What do you think of their next album, Rattle & Hum? I think it has some of the magic left from Joshua Tree, though it's one of those uneven tour/studio albums rock bands sometimes do.

[Amotis]

Never heard of it. I kinda stopped paying attention to them in high school. I guess I will check it out because you compared it to Joshua Tree.

[Samiam303]

Hm? How so?
Because this entire time you've been telling us we're wrong about how simplistic and repetitive all of today's music is, and then you post a song that says basically the opposite? :confused:

[FdL]

Never heard of it. I kinda stopped paying attention to them in high school. I guess I will check it out because you compared it to Joshua Tree.

Achtung Baby is pretty good too. If you haven't you should give it a listen. It's a change in sound for them, they're playing their Eno/berlin period Bowie influence, and I've always thought that it has something related to Jesus & Mary Chain or shoegazer influences too.

[Amotis]

Yeah, Achtung Baby is very good too. I was just making a hyperbole before :P

But hehe, Eno/Bowie/J&tMC/shoegazer all spell awesome. I don't care who you are.

[Nightmarenny]

Because this entire time you've been telling us we're wrong about how simplistic and repetitive all of today's music is, and then you post a song that says basically the opposite? :confused:Oh, the song. First I'm not trying to convinse anybody that alot of popular music is simplistic. Thats fact. Which is harder to argue against than opinion. I was asking why its hated so. The song is more about how there is a loss of one specific part of music(the Melody) which I do(well, sorta) agree with. but also that there is hope but its not on the radio(I refuse to listen to the radio so I wouldn't know)