too much?

[Akolbi]

sooo...starting a new campaign:

my mystic theurge of asmodeus wiz1/clr3/theurge4 decided to write up a contract for the party (if you're in the game (zach.) stoop reading) i want to know if it's too...abusive

table of contents
section 1- preamble
section 2- distribution of wealth
section 3- managment of the party
section 4- healing and ressurection
section 5- other terms
section 6- enforcement
section 7- signatures


1. Those signing this contract (signators, the party) do hereby formally agree to be bound together in a partnership, soas to meet the collective needs of all. Those signing this contract shall hereby agree to all terms within, and shall obey them to the best of their ability.

1.1 this contract shall remain valid until the mission of the party is completed.

1.1.1. the mission of the party is to acquire all of the keys of charon

2.The signators shall agree to divide all wealth gained under this contract (treasure or loot) according to the guidelines herein

2. 1. ½ (one half) of treasure shall be divided equally by value. All signators shall gain an equal share by value.

2. 2. ½ (one half) of that which remains shall be pooled into a communal fund, to be used in purchases agreed upon by a 2/3rds (two thirds) majority vote, and to be used in the resurrection of party members.

2.3 The remaining treasure shall be donated to a worthy cause, i.e. the nearest church (defined as a priest with a (un)holy symbol and alter, or (un)holy symbol and texts), soas to maintain the state of the world.

2.4 if a(n) item(s) is found that is only usable by a certain member of the party, or that is especially desired by a certain member of the party, that member may lay claim to it. claims made require that the party member pay the value of the item(s) to the party, to be divided as normal, with the claiming party member removed from wealth distribution.

2.4.1 if multiple party members lay claim to the same item, they may decide who is to acquire the item(s) in a number of ways:

2.4.1.1 all claiming party members are given the chance to reliquesh their claim to the item(s). if this reduces the number claiming to one or fewer, the normal process continues.

2.4.1.2 the claiming party members may bid for the item, the bidding shall begin at the price that was going to be paid for the item.

2.4.1.3 the item may instead be donated to the party. it is considered part of the communal fund, and follows the normal rules for such an item.

2.4.1.4 the party member, if they do not have enough funds to pay for the item(s), or if they refuse to trade their non-liquid assets for the item(s), the party member may instead place a lien on their future earnings with the party, and all wealth gained under section 2.1. shall be relinquished to the party fund, until they have paid the value of the item(s) plus a 10% (ten per cent) static interest on the item(s)

2.4.1.4.1 a party member may only have one such lien at a time.

2.5 exceptions to the above guidelines may be made by a 2/3rds (two thirds) majority vote of the signators. examples of when this would apply include when an item is found that is only usable by a certain member of the party, and that member did not.

3 all pary members are allowed to vote on the direction of the party. a 2/3rds (two thirds) majority vote shall be sufficiant for any alteration to this contract.

3.1 the acceptance of any mission shall be determined by a 2/3rds (two thirds) majority vote.

3.1.1 the excption to this is when less than 1/3rd (one third) of the party members are involved in a mission. they shall be allowed to undertake such a mission free of the restrictions of this contract.

3.2 the voting rights of each member shall be defined as follows

3.2.1 each member shall be given 1 (one) vote in any matter they may spend the vote as they see fit. This system is made to allow equal access for each party member to the inner workings of the party. party members may forfeit their votes to another party member, or abstain from any vote. if a party member abstains in a vote, they may not change their vote after the roll is completed. the rule disallowing abstainees from voting after the roll is completed is not applicable to clerics of asmodeus. the ranking cleric of asmodeus is given an additional 2 (two) votes for every member of the party and a quorum is always met whilst he is present. a quorum shall be defined as having 1/2 (one half) of the party present at the time of the vote. all votes made with a quorum, but less than a full party shall treat the quorum as the full party, and it shall be treated as such for the purpose of this contract, excepting section 2.

3.3 all party members shall not cause physical harm to other party members, excepting that the signer being harmed is not under their own control (not compelled or charmed in any way).

4 party members have an obligation to resurect any dead party members, this is done through the communal fund, or if the fund does not have enough gold to pay for a resurection, then a lien is placed against the party member, as if they had purchased an item from the party. the only difference is that any number of such liens are allowed to be given to any party member.

4.1 this does prevent further liens that a party member would like to take against the party.

4.2 party members may opt out of resurection before or after their death, those who opt out after deasth are considered to have signed section 4.3

4.3 opt out signatures

x__________________________ x__________________________

x__________________________ x__________________________

x__________________________ x__________________________

x__________________________ x__________________________

4.4 all signatures in section 4.3 apply to section 5.2

5 the following terms shall apply to the party

5.1. no party member may opt out, except by a 2/3rds (two thirds) majority vote.

5.2. all refered here by section 4.4 have given their souls to asmodeus.

5.3 all signatures are indicators of acceptance and complyance to all terms.

6. this contract, having been made valid by the signatures of all signators, with one of them being a priest of the lord of hell, shall be enforced by asmodeus, as he sees fit.

6.1 the minimum punshment for willingly breeaking this contract shall be the immediate departure of the sgner’s soul to hell, to be given to asmodeus.

7. all those who sign in section 7.2 agree to statement made in section 7.1

7.1 I hearby agree to obey all rules and regulations set forth in the contract above. I knowingly and willingly submit to both the rules and the punishment shall thoe rules be broken.

7.2 the signators are

x__________________________ x__________________________

x__________________________ x__________________________

x__________________________ x__________________________

x__________________________ x__________________________

x__________________________ x__________________________


let me know how evil I am...LE of course.

[Leviting]

I actually didn't notice the "soul is the property of Asmodeus" part my first read. Seems good to me. You made a perfectly good contract, then screwed them all over when they were either bored of reading or were actually trusting you. Perfect.

[Jeff the Green]

Umm... I saw it quite clearly. It needs to either be couched in more legalistic language or the contract needs to be considerably longer, so as to discourage people from actually reading it. Also, it should be closer to the middle than it is.

[OldTrees1]

So
1) IF they opt out of Resurrection, their soul goes to Asmodeus.
2) IF they do not divide up treasure in the 50% private, 25% communal, 25% charity split, their soul is immediately sent to Asmodeus.

Honestly only 1(section 5.2) seems likely to catch them off guard. Even that can be avoided by being resurrected and then arranging a death that prohibits Resurrection.


Honestly, to hide the nature of the contract, I would alter section 6 so that it makes no reference to hell/Asmodeus. That way you can rely on the easily missed section 5.2 to gain souls. (Warning: I still saw section 5.2 on my first read)

[Gildedragon]

Yeah
really easy to find. esp by the opt out bit, as the signatures block makes it rather obvious

also what does "opt out of resurrection" mean. Refuse to be resurrected? refuse to pay for a resurrection?

Also opting out before death does not need you to sign that portion.

Also, in case that opting out means "refuse to be resurrected", yeah you are not compelled by any prior part to accept resurrection by the party and as such "opting out" isn't defined. that is to say: they are not compelled to accept the res. and they are not bound to azzy if they don't.


What is the party makeup... because non LE chars really oughtn't sign this. Maybe LNs would... but any goodies would perhaps object to evil churches being put as worthy causes
chaotics would object on principle
and really anyone would object cause: cleric of a legalistic fiend...

Aaaalso 6.1 is REALLY presumptuous
as if Assy doesn't have better things to do than monitor every odd contract that has his name on it and enforce it...
That contract carries implications of "since I am his cleric I can use him as my private enforcer, provided I offer him souls"
which might bite you in the hindquarters. Part of being L is knowing your place, and your place isn't ordering Az about.

[Flickerdart]

You need to read an actual contract sometime, because this language is nowhere near convoluted and unreadable enough.

[Akolbi]

so nobody noticed that I control all votes? reread 3.2.1.

also...I fit the definitio nof a church...i have a holy symbol and the texts.

[Akolbi]

Aaaalso 6.1 is REALLY presumptuous
as if Assy doesn't have better things to do than monitor every odd contract that has his name on it and enforce it...
That contract carries implications of "since I am his cleric I can use him as my private enforcer, provided I offer him souls"
which might bite you in the hindquarters. Part of being L is knowing your place, and your place isn't ordering Az about.

I suppose. I didn't even think about that. I'll have to talk to my GM about it, see what he thinks.

[Angelalex242]

First: A paladin or good aligned cleric would fall instantly for signing that, so I hope there's none in your party. In fact, they'd fall before they could even finish signing their name in their deity's desperate attempt to preserve their souls.

Second: I'm not sure a druid, even an LN or NE druid, could get away with signing that either.

Third: If none of that's a problem, you're a genius. :)

[Nirhael]

so nobody noticed that I control all votes? reread 3.2.1.

also...I fit the definitio nof a church...i have a holy symbol and the texts.

3.2.1. is actually the most obvious part, what with being the largest block of text and all.

0. There's no fine print.
1. I don't see why anyone would sign a random contract, unless your party specifically requested your character to write one up for them.
2. What do you have to bind those who sign it to you? They can just rip the contract up and murder you if it doesn't go their way unless you're backed by someone or something bigger than them. Contracts between mortals aren't legally damning and Asmodeus isn't a power in 3.5, I'm not even sure if he'd back a contract made by a "Cleric" who worships him.
3. Spelling, grammar, sentence formulation, etc. can easily render your contract null and void.
4. Most terms aren't well defined and the meanings can be twisted, potentially against you.
5. Too short and simple, as it's been stated.

I'll admit that I didn't even bother reading the whole thing because of all the holes I've spotted just by skimming over the paragraphs, read some actual contracts to get a better idea of how you should word yours if you actually want to screw people over.

[Gildedragon]

so nobody noticed that I control all votes? reread 3.2.1.

also...I fit the definitio nof a church...i have a holy symbol and the texts.

Yeah, except it forces you to "maintain the state of the world" ie not change anything ie abandon your quest. Problematic.

[Akolbi]

very good catch on the "state of the world" that has now been omitted.

I still have to proof it, obviously, and i am glad for all the input, I like that I'm having the holes found before i present it.

this is 3.p, not 3.5, so that fixes the asmoedeus thing, and I'm the party's only healer, so I figure i'll use that as leverage to get them to sign.

[Gildedragon]

very good catch on the "state of the world" that has now been omitted.

I still have to proof it, obviously, and i am glad for all the input, I like that I'm having the holes found before i present it.

this is 3.p, not 3.5, so that fixes the asmoedeus thing, and I'm the party's only healer, so I figure i'll use that as leverage to get them to sign.

Contact Under Coercion -> Not valid

Also your costs: easier and cheaper to hire a LN Healer under Wee Jaz. Or a Pelorite.


on a gaming etiquette notice:

also screwing your fellow players over is a really neat way to stop having fellow players.


Also section 3.3 gives them full rights to beat the snot out of you indefinitely, as long as they charm you first.

[Alex12]

Aaaalso 6.1 is REALLY presumptuous
as if Assy doesn't have better things to do than monitor every odd contract that has his name on it and enforce it...
That contract carries implications of "since I am his cleric I can use him as my private enforcer, provided I offer him souls"
which might bite you in the hindquarters. Part of being L is knowing your place, and your place isn't ordering Az about.

"As he sees fit"
If Asmodeus sees fit not to enforce the contract because he's off doing other stuff, well, that's his business.


The only other loophole in your favor that I see: charm and compulsion spells != harm. You can Charm a party member, then kill them off without reprisal.


Downsides:
Spelling errors. Run it through a spell-checker.
Loophole against you in 2.3. The use of i.e. indicates that "the nearest church" isn't the only option.
2.5 is incomplete
The "no harm" bit means that if anyone catches a party member with accidental friendly fire, instant de-souling.
You're assuming a lot. If any of your party members reads through this before signing (and there's enough worrying stuff there to make even a quick skim want to read more) they may refuse. This could mean you fighting the rest of them.

[Akolbi]

on a gaming etiquette notice:

also screwing your fellow players over is a really neat way to stop having fellow players.

about that...the game I gm is kind of...messy. there are two factions who are CONSTANTLY trying to screw each other over. this is a slightly more subtle way to do it. I'm trying to have things i can pull out later. I don't know how closely they'll read, but i feel like I can get a couple of things past them. I'm hoping they catch smaller bits, so i can hit them later.

seriously, though. they are a party of chaotic stupids. i want to lawful evil the crap out of them.

(and i plan on playing a new character shortly after this)

(also the DM wants me to be the final villan)

[Averis Vol]

With it being so obvious, If you came to a game that I was in with something like that I would probably waste you where you stood and not give a single damn what you thought. Seriously, you are obviously not a trusty worthy person, who along with trying to back stab us isn't even being subtle about it. You would be lucky if you left the meeting alive. (in game of course)

[Akolbi]

[QUOTE=Alex12;17493938
The only other loophole in your favor that I see: charm and compulsion spells != harm. You can Charm a party member, then kill them off without reprisal.


Downsides:
Spelling errors. Run it through a spell-checker.
Loophole against you in 2.3. The use of i.e. indicates that "the nearest church" isn't the only option.
2.5 is incomplete
The "no harm" bit means that if anyone catches a party member with accidental friendly fire, instant de-souling.
You're assuming a lot. If any of your party members reads through this before signing (and there's enough worrying stuff there to make even a quick skim want to read more) they may refuse. This could mean you fighting the rest of them.[/QUOTE]

I liked that one, and it seems like a good precaution.

I agree on the downsides. except the second: i.e. means a rephrasing, e.g. means an example, unless i'm wrong, it does the exact opposite if what you said, while looking like it does exactly that

[Gildedragon]

Loophole against you in 2.3. The use of i.e. indicates that "the nearest church" isn't the only option.
ie means id est or "in other words" meaning the only option

doing it "the nearest worthy cause, eg:..." and rattling some worthy causes is less suspicious and has you close.

And regardless it is presumptious: Assy can execute it as he sees fit but there is a minimum punishment (meaning he cannot opt to not do anything about it).
The wording of the contract is trying to rope asmodeus (or other forces) into enforcing it. Or is the cleric crafting contingent desoulings into the contract?

[Akolbi]

contingent desoulings, the idea is that there is no way out but into hell.

[Gildedragon]

contingent desoulings, the idea is that there is no way out but into hell.

How are you crafting the desoulings?
Coz it seems rather hard to do at level 8..

[Alex12]

contingent desoulings, the idea is that there is no way out but into hell.

Sure there is: get the keys, finish the mission, then leave. The clause about Asmodeus getting their souls only applies to people opting out of resurrection.

I will say that if any of my characters were presented with this contract, they'd rip it up, spit in your face, and leave, and that would be the best case situation for you. Worst case for you would be a "do you think I'm stupid?" accompanied by the strongest attack I'm capable of.

[OldTrees1]

so nobody noticed that I control all votes? reread 3.2.1.

also...I fit the definitio nof a church...i have a holy symbol and the texts.

I did miss section 3.2.1. As a player, I would not have missed that section. It is too important a section for any character that wants to participate in decision making (most characters).


contingent desoulings, the idea is that there is no way out but into hell.

Nah, dying in a way that invalidates Resurrection is another escape. The contract gives them literally an infinite number of tries to find such a death.

[Akolbi]

Sure there is: get the keys, finish the mission, then leave.

...finishing this mission might make them WISH they had just gone to hell...

[Red Fel]

Can we talk for a minute? Meet me over by Camera 3.

*turns*

Okay. I love what you're doing here. I mean that. Crafting Faustian contracts is crazy fun, good times for everyone involved (except the signatories, who are technically the only ones involved other than the draftsman), and generally a great exercise. And I am loathe to call anything badwrongfun.

But, chief? You're kinda overplaying your hand.

First things first. What adventurers actually need an adventuring contract? I've never been in a party where we had a formal sit-down process with a notary and witnesses and whatnot. We just generally made an agreement, verbal in nature, and let it go at that. Requiring something in writing will raise eyebrows. And suspicions. The best Faustian contracts are offered when there is no chance of them being rejected. Not because you're coercing the parties, but because your offer is suddenly the best (or only) way to get what they want, what they believe they need, right now. At the outset of an adventure, there's hardly any incentive, any all-encompassing need, that will compel an adventurer to grab a piece of this Faustian goodness.

Second, do they know your character is Evil? If they don't, the repeated name "Asmodeus" that pops up in this contract will certainly grab their attention, and boy will they be cheesed off at you. PCs don't like being tricked, and they will be understandably shocked to realize your character is a naughty-pants. And if they do know, they'll be immediately suspicious of anything you give them to sign.

Which raises the third issue - it's too long, too detailed. This is what I mean by overplaying your hand. Yes, it's long and complex enough that the PCs could get lost in the meandering paragraphs. But they won't go that far. Once they figure out you're Evil, it will be painfully obvious that anything you want them to sign will end badly for them. Making it long and convoluted only makes it more painfully obvious.

This is a sticking point for me, chief. As I've said, I love a good Faustian. But the best ones - the really, super-best ones - are simple. Mindblowingly simple. Either they're obviously Evil (e.g. "I do this for you, the cost is your soul"), but they're the kind of offer you can't afford to pass up on; or they're simple and innocuous (e.g. "When I ask for it, say your name out loud,") such that even though the PC knows it will end badly, he can't figure out how it will. The more complex the contract is, the more the PC is likely to assume it's not worth it. Simple means that he'll consider the risks and go with it anyway.

Fourth issue, which is admittedly a lesser matter, is enforcement. Signing a contract promising their souls to Asmodeus doesn't mean that they're going to the Hells when it's all over. There are dozens of ways around it. And frankly, I don't see Az stopping by to proof the works of an 8th-level flunky. No offense, but you're no Outsider, you're certainly no Archdevil, and you lack the means of guaranteeing that they cough up what they've promised before they're hit with an Atonement spell or any similar means of redeeming any potential spiritual compromises. And as others have mentioned, your contract is mandating the actions of Az himself, and I doubt he's happy about you calling him up over this.

Meet me back over at Camera 1.

*turns*

Faustian contracts are nuanced and subtle. But too many people assume you have to hide your tricks and traps in elaborate loopholes and legalese. You can do that, sure; but it's inefficient and offputting to potential rubes. The real trick to getting someone to cough up their immortal bits is to offer them something they have to have, right now, and you're just not offering these guys anything stellar.

Lower Management would be very disappointed.

[Gildedragon]

If you want to play a 3.5 contract maker there are ways.
See this post detailing most ways to mage magical contracts (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17473756&postcount=2) If you notice the cheapest is a Bestow Curse 'contract' and you need CL 11 for that
The contract of N is prolly your best option... except the needed spell Lesser Geas isn't on your spell list. But it ought be a baseline for what you can do at your level.

Aditionally: Chaotic (stupid) party. Contracts wouldn't really be a thing.
Asking for, say, resurrection insurance would work.

Better Faustian Bargain:
You will cast res for them, provided that you get power of attorney in their name after they die and until they get resurrect them. You will bring them back to life as soon as you may. Don't screw them over for a WHILE, get Revivify at 9th. They fall, you Revivify... and you've not resurrected them.

[Callin]

I will say this after going back and reading the "contract" none of my characters, whether good or evil would ever sign this contract, and would most likely try to kill you in the near future. Dont be a pain to the other players, its bad form, but your group may be different.

But yea my characters would kill you or at the very very least not adventure with you, and still think about killing you. A lot.

[Gildedragon]

Wording for a bargain:

"I, [cleric's name], solemnly swear that in the case of the death of a signatory of this contract, I will provide for their return to life as soon as resources and spell-slots allow, without expectation of remuneration for the costs incurred (with the exception of the diamonds, of which I shall provide 1/4 of the cost and the deceased's estate the rest (at the deceased's convenience)). In exchange I, [cleric's name], expect fair and just treatment by the party in regards to treasure shares, aid, etc; as well as to receive power of attorney over the deceased from the time of death until their resurrection, with the explicit goal and purpose of furthering the party's strength.

Failure to comply on my behalf will result in a fine equivalent to the cost of a true resurrection for the fallen comrade OR the seizure of my entire worldly possessions in behest of the party (with half of said wealth given to the injured signatory after their return to life has been secured) (whichever is higher) and revoking of any powers of attorney received by means of this contract.

Failure to comply by any of the signatories will result in a fine equal to three times the cost of the spell cast to bring them (the offending signatory) to life plus 10pp per each subsequent month spent alive until the breach of contract, as well as a denial of any further casting that affects them without monetary remuneration equivalent to:
Caster-Level*Spell level*10gp+5gp*XP lost by the caster+the costs of any material components.
This fee may be waived at my, [cleric's name name], discretion."

An optional clause can be (but it might be too on the nose)

"Despite [cleric's name] affiliation with the lower planes, the powers of attorney received by means of this contract will in no way be used to further the influence of demons or the abyssal dimensions or their rulers."


The contract is simple, easy to understand, and seems to constrain you more than them.
Provided you do not use a resurrection spell to bring them back, you retain power of attorney ad infinitum
You can use this power to further your own power level, as this will increase the power of the party further than strengthening the BSF
You can further Asy's cause as he is a Devil AND a lord of hell, not the abyss
If they break the contract you can refuse to cast spells in their favor, and buff their enemies, and save your buttocks. Or just buff the compliant signatories and let the other guy have to make do with natural healing and no buffs.

[Red Fel]

Wording for a bargain:

I don't care how Lawful he is; if my party Cleric tells me he will be charging me for healing, he's not going to be my party Cleric very long. As a rule, I try to pay my debts, and that includes fees for rez, but if you try to get me to sign a contract for a payment plan, I'm likely to try to get you to sign my longsword. With your face.

[Gildedragon]

I don't care how Lawful he is; if my party Cleric tells me he will be charging me for healing, he's not going to be my party Cleric very long. As a rule, I try to pay my debts, and that includes fees for rez, but if you try to get me to sign a contract for a payment plan, I'm likely to try to get you to sign my longsword. With your face.

Payment for healing only happens if you (the non cleric) break the contract.
Also note that there is not time limit to pay for the bringing back to life. Also the costs are the NPC spellcasting costs.