How'd you build a Mage Killer?

[aleucard]

I think we all know about the old 'linear fighter quadratic wizard' issue with 3.5/PF, but I'd like to see how it stands up to an actual stress test. Here's the ground rules.

1) The character in question is NOT to have any levels in a primary caster class. This includes Wizards, Clerics, Druids, Psions, Sorcerers, and all other classes of the like. Even the gish-types (such as Bard, Paladin, Warlock, etc.) are going to be restricted (dips only for these, try and keep it to 3 levels max in one of these base classes for a LV20 build).

2) Tome of Battle is to be restricted to dips also. I am fully aware of how powerful the ToB can be in an optimizer's hands; this is not the place to explore that in full. Some dipping for that extra kick is acceptable, however.

3) Prestige Classes are allowed, but only 2 on a single character. No DM who isn't running a Tippyverse campaign or similar will allow someone to put much more than this on their toon. Assume that this character is being built for an actual campaign.

4) Specify what type of campaign this build is for if necessary, but include what the ideal starting level is also. Some classes (and PrCs, and feats, and other crap) are area or terrain specific. Also, I'm fully aware that some build types need several levels to truly come online, and I want to know when yours will.

5) It needs to have an estimated chance of victory against a comparably-leveled Primary Caster (if it's against a specific kind/class, state so) of 50% or higher. Assume that said caster is being built and played by an average player with comparable levels of system mastery (who has access to the handbooks for his class). If the build has major weaknesses in specific fields, state them.

6) As long as the above rules are met, you are allowed to use any level of optimization you wish. You are also allowed to use any amount of GP beyond the WBL, but specify how much is being used (preferably with it showing how much higher than standard it is also); lower GP needed is better, obviously. SOME use of 3.0 material is allowed, but specify exactly where each of these uses are; items and other purchasable goods (enchantments, that one training dummy that allowes 10' steps after training with it, etc.) only.

I'm REALLY interested in hearing what you got. If there needs to be a rules update, I'll link to the post that has the update here, and say that the rule applies from that post forward. Have fun!


EDIT 1: Already put in a couple new rules. Just scroll down this page, no links necessary.

[Malroth]

The biggest problem is, Primary casters can effectively change their builds to counter any threat simply by choosing appropriate spells to memorize that day while mundanes are stuck with a single trick that can be easily researched and prepared for with divination or gather information checks. Therefore Quantum Wizard situations which seem unfairly biased towards caster preparedness happen quite often in actual gameplay and are aren't counterable without being a primary caster yourself.

[ryu]

The biggest problem is, Primary casters can effectively change their builds to counter any threat simply by choosing appropriate spells to memorize that day while mundanes are stuck with a single trick that can be easily researched and prepared for with divination or gather information checks. Therefore Quantum Wizard situations which seem unfairly biased towards caster preparedness happen quite often in actual gameplay and are aren't counterable without being a primary caster yourself.

Specifically a primary caster is only counterable if you're a better caster than they are. The way this game's mechanics work? It tends to lean towards paranoia and how many steps into the meta you're willing to plan.

[Flickerdart]

Prestige Classes are allowed, but only 2 on a single character. No DM who isn't running a Tippyverse campaign or similar will allow someone to put much more than this on their toon. Assume that this character is being built for an actual campaign.

http://i.minus.com/ii1ODkCFy2kkC.gif

I have played my share of "actual campaigns" and have never seen any restrictions on prestige classes, certainly nothing as draconian as you are proposing.


The biggest problem is, Primary casters can effectively change their builds to counter any threat simply by choosing appropriate spells to memorize that day while mundanes are stuck with a single trick that can be easily researched and prepared for with divination or gather information checks. Therefore Quantum Wizard situations which seem unfairly biased towards caster preparedness happen quite often in actual gameplay and are aren't counterable without being a primary caster yourself.
That's not really the problem. The problem is that spells have such broad applications and casters can have so many of them at hand that even without foreknowledge, they are likely equipped to deal with the contender in some way, whereas said contender is extremely unlikely to have an answer to every single spell the target might have prepared (and a wizard killer build to tackle a predetermined spell loadout isn't going to slay very many wizards).

[eggynack]

That 5th rule is kinda weird. It might actually make this into a contest of removing as much optimization as possible from a melee build without crippling it, and hoping that you can hit some point where casters are worse than melee guys, if such a point exists.

[Baroknik]

I will say Vecna-blooded ubercharger with a permanencied AMF may offer some aid if it can win initiative.

No matter what I think Vecna-blooded is a HUGE plus since it will stop a lot of preparation...

[WinWin]

Keep it low level. A mage slayer will have better options as they level, but probably not to the extent that a dedicated spellcaster will. A Level 1 Mounted Dwarf will have decent saves. A level 1 Warforged's immunities will make it difficult to deal with. A level 20 challenge? Not a chance.

[AnonymousPepper]

If UMD is an allowed thing, a single scroll (to be safe, bring three) of Antimagic Ray will destroy a caster unless he happens to be an Initiate of Mystra or is willing to pop an Invoke Magic for every spell he casts. Ideally, a scroll of Celerity will also get brought out to ensure that the Wizard can't just pop a Spellcraft check and then Celerity into Greater Dispel Magic to deal with the AMR.

[ryu]

I will say Vecna-blooded ubercharger with a permanencied AMF may offer some aid if it can win initiative.

No matter what I think Vecna-blooded is a HUGE plus since it will stop a lot of preparation...

Contact other plane to find any given day wherein you die. Have a respawn contingency plan enabled. Make an ice assassin of the person who killed you and mind-rape it to learn everything it knew. Now then you're the one with initiative. Kill the target. Just to set an example hire out a cleric to repeatedly resurrect the un-geared corpse. Incidentally this is why there is no such thing as a veteran mage killer. Most all mages have access to the tools to not stay dead, to find out exactly who killed them, where they're likely to be, and of course to counter anyone given time to prepare.

[Baroknik]

Contact other plane to find any given day wherein you die. Have a respawn contingency plan enabled. Make an ice assassin of the person who killed you and mind-rape it to learn everything it knew. Now then you're the one with initiative. Kill the target. Just to set an example hire out a cleric to repeatedly resurrect the un-geared corpse. Incidentally this is why there is no such thing as a veteran mage killer. Most all mages have access to the tools to not stay dead, to find out exactly who killed them, where they're likely to be, and of course to counter anyone given time to prepare.

However, the character DID successfully kill the mage then (even if not permanently). Unsure how to get the hair for an ice assassin since nothing is known of the character, but how would using a thinaun weapon work?


Edit: Note I'm not saying there's not counter-plays or it is perfect by any means, just that Vecna-blooded insta-Gibbing seems fairly efficient.

[ryu]

However, the character DID successfully kill the mage then (even if not permanently). Unsure how to get the hair for an ice assassin since nothing is known of the character, but how would using a thinaun weapon work?


Edit: Note I'm not saying there's not counter-plays or it is perfect by any means, just that Vecna-blooded insta-Gibbing seems fairly efficient.

Increased number of methods for making resurrection more difficult only makes resurrection more difficult. There is no method that doesn't have a counter-method. I have an escalating list of such methods that goes all the way up having done work for individual gods from various pantheons specifically so that favors can be called in. Why multiple gods instead of just one? Because you have to kill all of them instead of just one before completely erasing my soul from existence. As for getting the hair it's in the spell component pouch and the wizard knows enough from the murder to get it like any other costless material component. Alternatively wish for a scroll of ice assassin of the target that last killed you. Preferably from something with (Su) wish so as not to waste any XP.

As for efficiency I simply stated that there exist no veterans. A job wherein the practitioner dies thirty minutes to an hour or so after completing his first mark is not efficient.

[Baroknik]

Well if we're going that far I invoke a level 1 kobold paladin to win :-P

Also, I'm unsure how a scroll of ice assassin works since the target is an ice statue replica. Since no info is known how is a replica made? Not really trying to drag this on. We know, magic wins. Coming up with counter-arguments to fun ideas and the spirit of the thread just makes one seem like a party pooper. Let's not have this thread devolve into a "level 20 wizards always win because of paranoia" since it doesn't help the OP much.

[ryu]

You mean I can't just fabricate one from memory of the killer? That would require that he cycles the template on and off instantly before I can get this process moving. Incidentally he should also regularly be wiping his short term memory and leaving contingent mind-rapes full of triggers for other contingencies. That is the only way I've found to stop any potential enemy from winning the information war with any sort of consistency. If I don't know the information, no one else has the potential to know the information, and I'm the only one who can leverage it in combat I can't be adequately prepared for.

[Baroknik]

You mean I can't just fabricate one from memory of the killer? That would require that he cycles the template on and off instantly before I can get this process moving. Incidentally he should also regularly be wiping his short term memory and leaving contingent mind-rapes full of triggers for other contingencies. That is the only way I've found to stop any potential enemy from winning the information war with any sort of consistency. If I don't know the information, no one else has the potential to know the information, and I'm the only one who can leverage it in combat I can't be adequately prepared for.

Well he'd obviously be wearing a burqa so you couldn't ID him, duh.

[aleucard]

Alright, new rules time!

1) The characters have to start at least around level 5-7. Wizards at least are well-known as being completely hosed at low levels thanks to their small spell slot count. Let's make it somewhat more fair, shall we?

2) Assume that true Divination abuse as described in the posts before this one is not in evidence. Just because the people who made the game were morons doesn't mean that the abuse of known 'bugs' is fair, and being able to read the future like a book even at mid-level is a pretty damn big one.

3) UMD for Scrolls, Wands, and similar as a key part of the build is NOT allowed. These functionally turn the character into a caster, which is not what I'm trying to find. If it's something for utilitarian or emergency use, however, then go for it.

And now, for the 'Responding to Previous Comments' segment of this program! *cheers*

Flickerdart: How many Prestige Classes do you normally take that you think restricting to 2 is draconian? Wait, no, what non-broken build even NEEDS more than maybe 3? Bear in mind that I'm not counting Base Classes for this. I put this rule in here so that the build could actually be played in most games without the DM and/or anybody else who sees the sheet crying cheese.

Eggynack: That rule was put in place because the whole point of this thread was to find a way to have a good chance of beating a Primary Caster without becoming one yourself. Having a 50% shot is good enough for me, and allows the character to be balanced against them too (assuming, of course, that said character doesn't have some sort of crippling weakness against any other type of opponent). To put it in perspective, if I were to ask for someone to give me a viable monk build, while suggesting a Monk 20 is technically allowed, it's missing the point entirely. This allows there to be no misunderstanding.

Thanks for the interesting thoughts, though I'd like to see more ideas on how to actually make a character that fits the criteria.

[Sewercop]

Equal optimization versus a wizard means you don`t win unless you are a caster aswell.
(unless both are really bad at char creation and then the floor of the wiz are so low its doable)
Wizards are not hosed on low levels at all.

More then two prestige classes means nothing really. It hoses mundanes more then casters.

[eggynack]

Eggynack: That rule was put in place because the whole point of this thread was to find a way to have a good chance of beating a Primary Caster without becoming one yourself. Having a 50% shot is good enough for me, and allows the character to be balanced against them too (assuming, of course, that said character doesn't have some sort of crippling weakness against any other type of opponent). To put it in perspective, if I were to ask for someone to give me a viable monk build, while suggesting a Monk 20 is technically allowed, it's missing the point entirely. This allows there to be no misunderstanding.
System mastery and optimization have nothing to do with the power level of a class, or set of classes. The issue, always, with setting narrow limits of system mastery and optimization, is that they're completely subjective. One fellow thinks that just casting orb of fire is the very height of cheese (just try explaining it to someone who thinks that AMF's are wizard destroyers), but think that loading up a barbarian with ACF's is standard, and some think the exact inverse. You think you're allowing there to be no misunderstanding, but really you're constructing a situation rife with misunderstandings, where attempting to ratchet down power level is within the word of the challenge, if not the spirit. You probably need to be more explicit with your intended power level or levels, in other words.

[Amphetryon]

1) The characters have to start at least around level 5-7. Wizards at least are well-known as being completely hosed at low levels thanks to their small spell slot count. Let's make it somewhat more fair, shall we?Wizards can dominate the game starting at Level 1, without Theoretical Optimization. I'm not sure why you think a Wizard's 'completely hosed at low levels,' let alone what you mean by the notion that this is 'well-known.'

[aleucard]

Here's the thing. I'm allowing the Mage-killer to have any level of optimization the build-maker wishes, save what has already been stated in the rules (these are intended for actual play rather than as just a thought exercise a la PunPun, after all). The Primary Caster, on the other hand, is assumed to be a bog-standard example of its class that has access to the Handbooks on their classes. I am fully aware of how screwed a non-caster is against an equally-optimized caster. I'm wanting to see if the gap can be closed without the caster under-playing their Tier Ranking or any TO cheese.

Amp, I'd like to hear how a level 1 Wizard can dominate at level 1. I'm interested in hearing what you'd have him do with his spells.

[sideswipe]

a higher level mage

[Xerlith]

A-Game Paladin. Dip Warblade for Iron Heart Surge. Pray for good rolls.

Also, your PrC restrictions completely gimp, mutilate, chew and spit out mundane characters, while Wizard5/Incantatrix8/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil7 laughs maniacally behind his veils. Just saying.

[Jeff the Green]

(these are intended for actual play rather than as just a thought exercise a la PunPun, after all).

I'd like to know why you think these restrictions are necessary for "actual play". I've never played in a game that had any such restrictions. (Well, NWN, but that was a game engine limitation.)


Amp, I'd like to hear how a level 1 Wizard can dominate at level 1. I'm interested in hearing what you'd have him do with his spells.

Sleep. Color spray. Charm person. Grease. Wall of smoke. Nerveskitter. Treacherous weapon. Ray of enfeeblement/clumsiness. Cause Fear. And that's all if he has to fight for himself, not buff an ally (e.g. someone he'd previously cast charm person on) to smack you for him. And also if he only uses the spells in Treantmonk's guide and doesn't go digging around for more obscure ones.

[Amphetryon]

Sleep. Color spray. Charm person. Grease. Wall of smoke. Nerveskitter. Treacherous weapon. Ray of enfeeblement/clumsiness. Cause Fear. And that's all if he has to fight for himself, not buff an ally (e.g. someone he'd previously cast charm person on) to smack you for him. And also if he only uses the spells in Treantmonk's guide and doesn't go digging around for more obscure ones.Don't forget options like Abrupt Jaunt. First level also means that, for example, an Elf Wizard is barely at a disadvantage when firing her Shortbow in comparison to the party's theoretical full-BAB Class firing the same weapon, with neither one able to afford a Mighty weapon for a bonus to Damage from STR.

[aleucard]

A-Game Paladin. Dip Warblade for Iron Heart Surge. Pray for good rolls.

Also, your PrC restrictions completely gimp, mutilate, chew and spit out mundane characters, while Wizard5/Incantatrix8/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil7 laughs maniacally behind his veils. Just saying.

Alright, then. What would you do that would need more than 3 PrC's? Let's actually see a build for once. Only 2 people so far have made any statements on those lines whatsoever thus far.

Jeff: How many casts of those does your Wizard get, and what's the DC?

[ryu]

Alright, then. What would you do that would need more than 3 PrC's? Let's actually see a build for once. Only 2 people so far have made any statements on those lines whatsoever thus far.

Jeff: How many casts of those does your Wizard get, and what's the DC?

Precocious apprentice into fiery burst feat opener. If it's level one and spellslots are expected to be any kind of hassle the wizard now has a limitless supply of anything within an aimable fifteen foot cone is quite probably dead. Also abrupt jaunt for those occasions where things don't die in one hit. Also we still get several first level spells per day for situations that require other tactics.

[HammeredWharf]

The bare minimum a mage killer needs to do to be able to threaten a caster:

1) Win initiative. If he loses, the caster just teleports away.
2) Catch the caster. This means a high fly speed, because the fight is unlikely to start at the often-assumed 60-120 ft distance.
3) Harm the caster. This means bypassing possible Contingencies and other defenses the caster has on 24/7.
4) Resist spells. Of course, the combat could end at 3), but you should be able to last a round to be sure.
5) Harass the caster. This probably means taking Mage Slayer, although the caster can still cast Swift Action spells with it.

There are decent options - that can still be bypassed by a well-built caster - for most of these, but fitting all of them in a single build is quite hard. An optimized caster would still kick your arse even if you managed to do that, but that's D&D. However, even succeeding at 1) is very hard, because casters rock at initiative. I just built a Swiftblade with +30 init and that's without any dirty tricks.

[ryu]

Not to mention standard foresight into celerity into timestop. There is no way to ensure first against a caster as a mundane.

[HammeredWharf]

Yes, I decided to ignore 9th level spells, because the noncaster has a snowball's chance in hell with them in play.

[Amphetryon]

Jeff: How many casts of those does your Wizard get, and what's the DC?
One of each per day of two (or more) 1st-level Spells, plus any Scrolls he chose to scribe (assuming Scribe Scroll wasn't ACF'd away), meaning he has "I Win" buttons for at least half the encounters expected, at DC 14+ (DC impossible to codify solidly because no stats/point buy/etc have been given to this 'challenge'). For the other expected 2 encounters, see previous commentary regarding a Wizard's relative efficacy at Ranged Combat at Level 1, compared to a full-BAB chassis. See also: Reserve Feats, Abrupt Jaunt, and intelligent Cantrip use. Apply as appropriate to a given concept.

If you're expecting more than 4 encounters per day, at 1st level, that should be spelled out in the challenge's parameters, as that's a fairly clear deviation from the by-the-book expected baseline.

[Darkweave31]

The biggest challenge with killing a wizard isn't the actual combat (though that's tough too). No, you have to track down, get to, and pin down a person who is so paranoid modern psychology could use them as a case study. How will you know where the wizard is? Gather Information? What wizard doesn't walk around with alter or disguise self to guard their identity? Even if you manage to find the location of their lonely secluded tower how will you get past the dozens of traps, bound creatures, and gods know what else to even get close to the inner sanctum? How many invisible prismatic walls can you run through before you fail a save? What about that wall of force in your way? And once you're there, how do you stop them from escaping? How do you deal with a character that has multiple layers of contingencies and defenses beyond their spell slots for that day?

There is a reason wizards make great BBEGs, even getting the chance to kill them is hard let alone putting them down permanently. They make for an epic quest. Best case scenario is when the wizard decides you aren't worth their time and leaves you in a prismatic sphere with a Balor as a consolation prize while they go about their business.

Want to try to catch them in a permanent anti-magic field? Hope you have (ex) flight and a nonmagic means to penetrate a wall of force because you won't even get close otherwise.

Mage-slayer lock-down build? Abrupt Jaunt.

Do you have access to true seeing to penetrate their superior invisibility?

Did you manage to force the wizard to retreat via teleport? That's about as much of a victory as when you see Mongolian horsemen retreating.

Without full casting you simply won't be able to counter their limitless versatility with your limited options, even if you build with the mage slaying options printed. That said... bard can come close. Look up the joker bard sometime. It makes very efficient use of the bard's casting to counter traditional batman wizard strategies. It's more of a DM build to harass and challenge tier 1 players, but take that as you will.

[aleucard]

I'm beginning to get the impression that this forum is more interested in pointing out how wrong I am to assume that anything a non-caster can do will matter against a primary caster than to actually attempt my build idea. Is it impossible for me to get an honest attempt at this aside from what I've already gotten?

[Nightraiderx]

Race: LE Dragonblooded Human ECL 20

1 Ranger (Arcane hunter)
Holy Warrior Paladin of Tyranny 4 (spell less alt + cha to saves)
Hexblade 2 (for cha to saves again for spells/spell-like ability)
Occult Slayer 5
Witch Slayer 5
2 lvls of Fighter
1 lvl Warblade (Iron Heart Surge + others/ Stance H

Feats:
1 Darkstalker
3 Improved Initiative
POT 4 Power Attack
6 Weapon Focus
9 Mage Slayer
12 Pierce Magical Protection
15 Law Devotion
18 Travel Devotion
F 18 Blind Sight
F 19 Pierce Magical Concealment

Stat Importance: Cha/Con/Str > Int/Dex > Wisdom

Weapon of Choice: Gliave will work.

Strategy: Track them down (they are your favored enemy after all) and stab them. Shutting down their defenses through momentary disjunction
and Pierce magical protection. (yes you ignore all magical effects to AC and disrupt them- bye bye polymorph if is has natural armor (and alot of them do).
Law Devotion keeps your AC or your attack bonus up whichever is giving you more grief atm.

You'll want dragon wings graft. Natural flight is better so it can't be dispelled. as well as the blindsight graft.

Your gold is going to go into +5 tomes (str/con/cha), emergency elemental resistance immunity, a ring of shield (because magic missile death mages), natural flight, immediate/swift action teleport escape buttons.

Wall of Blades/Iron Heart Surge/Iron Heart Focus
Stance: Dancing Blade Form (+5 reach)

You'll have some nice passive defenses from dominate x type spells. Nondetection will help with hiding from divination.

Edit: A slight change in build: grabbing darkstalker for hide checks will be alot more valuable than +cha to damage.
Mindsight will still be difficult since occultslayer has nondectetion and passive mindblank.
If they aren't in range, stalk them.

Second Edit: Were any flaws allowed? Because able learner would help even out skill points alot more. Point Buy?

[Shining Wrath]

It seems that to kill a high level mage, and have him stay dead, requires someone with the ability to foil the mage's divination prior to the killing, and counter the mage's self-resurrecting magics after the killing.

Let us then assume a priori that the existence of a Mage Killer forces the existence of a patron who provides these necessities. If Mage Killer, then patron. We may need to add other capabilities to the patron, but right now shielding the MK from Divination and being able to know what the mage's "oh no I died" contingencies are and somehow foil them are on the list.

The patron is obviously a high-level caster, so why aren't they doing the job themselves? Because it amuses them to use a Mage Killer, or because they have a samurai like code of honor where they can't do certain things but can hire someone else to do them.

So, assuming that the wizard doesn't know the Mage Killer is coming and can't take hideous revenge afterward, and actually stays dead - NOW, build a Mage Killer.

I think my basic chassis would be TWF high dexterity with all the initiative boosts, some sort of item or graft granting flight (or REALLY fast running and jumping), and an injury / contact poison that drops Strength, which is likely to be the mage's dump stat. In addition, something which inflicts Dimensional Anchor on the mage is pretty likely to be essential.

I could go research further details but I'm too lazy :smallbiggrin:

[ryu]

It seems that to kill a high level mage, and have him stay dead, requires someone with the ability to foil the mage's divination prior to the killing, and counter the mage's self-resurrecting magics after the killing.

Let us then assume a priori that the existence of a Mage Killer forces the existence of a patron who provides these necessities. If Mage Killer, then patron. We may need to add other capabilities to the patron, but right now shielding the MK from Divination and being able to know what the mage's "oh no I died" contingencies are and somehow foil them are on the list.

The patron is obviously a high-level caster, so why aren't they doing the job themselves? Because it amuses them to use a Mage Killer, or because they have a samurai like code of honor where they can't do certain things but can hire someone else to do them.

So, assuming that the wizard doesn't know the Mage Killer is coming and can't take hideous revenge afterward, and actually stays dead - NOW, build a Mage Killer.

I think my basic chassis would be TWF high dexterity with all the initiative boosts, some sort of item or graft granting flight (or REALLY fast running and jumping), and an injury / contact poison that drops Strength, which is likely to be the mage's dump stat. In addition, something which inflicts Dimensional Anchor on the mage is pretty likely to be essential.

I could go research further details but I'm too lazy :smallbiggrin:

You'd also need to deal with battle contingencies, disgustingly large amounts of minion-based action economy, the wizard's shut up I go first even then especially then buttons, his escape contingencies, his being on another plane of existence astral projecting to prime standard, be able to access his private demiplane, AND somehow circumvent the frighteningly long list of selective planar effects and traps that come with being there. Then, and only then, you might have a chance at a fair one on one fight.

[Nightraiderx]

You'd also need to deal with battle contingencies, disgustingly large amounts of minion-based action economy, the wizard's shut up I go first even then especially then buttons, his escape contingencies, his being on another plane of existence astral projecting to prime standard, be able to access his private demiplane, AND somehow circumvent the frighteningly long list of selective planar effects and traps that come with being there. Then, and only then, you might have a chance at a fair one on one fight.

Lol I can hear a campaign pitch already: DEFEAT THE GOD WIZARD. 4 mundanes. No Caster levels. Ascend and do battle with the over powered wizard of doom.

[aleucard]

Alright, here's a question. Is contingency abuse like described by previous posts REALLY so common that it should be assumed of any bog-standard Caster with access to the spell? If not, then including it into this is patently unfair. Again, we already know that any non-caster is completely horse-buggered by an optimized caster. I'm wanting to find out if it's possible to have a decent shot against a standard one. If this IS standard, then so be it, but I will be excluding it in a rules update if so. This is getting ridiculous; we're spending more time talking about the caster than the actual character that's being built.

[The Glyphstone]

I'm beginning to get the impression that this forum is more interested in pointing out how wrong I am to assume that anything a non-caster can do will matter against a primary caster than to actually attempt my build idea. Is it impossible for me to get an honest attempt at this aside from what I've already gotten?

Have you already considered and discarded the possibility that everyone has been honest, and the structure of 3.5 without houserules is simply stacked too far in favor of the caster? There's a reason we jokingly refer to Wizard Wednesdays and Tier Thursdays; this argument/request about making a mundane who can beat a full caster is darn near literally a weekly event, and frequently it goes waaaaaay further than your vague hypothetical did - occasionally it gets as far as builds being posted and dissected. We have been doing this for a very long time, repeating the same cycle over and over with each new person who believes they have figured out the secret to caster-killing and gently (or brutally) crushing their dreams. Very few people are willing to attempt something they've 'attempted' dozens of times in the past to no avail, just to prove said points to the latest in a long line of misguided optimists.

[ryu]

Alright, here's a question. Is contingency abuse like described by previous posts REALLY so common that it should be assumed of any bog-standard Caster with access to the spell? If not, then including it into this is patently unfair. Again, we already know that any non-caster is completely horse-buggered by an optimized caster. I'm wanting to find out if it's possible to have a decent shot against a standard one. If this IS standard, then so be it, but I will be excluding it in a rules update if so. This is getting ridiculous; we're spending more time talking about the caster than the actual character that's being built.

This isn't the spell contingency. Look up craft contingent spell. It's one of the most powerful feats in the entire game to the point where I would openly state that anyone who doesn't take it but has access is actively holding back.

[Togo]

You're probably right about the forum. No matter how many times you repeat your terms, a non-optimised build suitable for a real campaign in a neutral setting, the forum will continue to throw optimised schrodinger's wizards sitting in a fortress at you.

To be clear, if you have a reasonable build suitable for a campaign, rather than anyone optimised either in their build or in their 'paranoia' (code for endless layers of preparations), then it's probably possible to build someone who stands a chance.

However, no matter what build gets posted, there will be a configurations of spells best able to deal with it. By asking people to post a wizard-killer build in advance, you're robbing the killer of their best advantage - the fact that, on any given day, the wizard only has one set of spells memorised, and that set won't be optimised to deal with a particular build.

And unless you specify that the two characters are, say, squabbling over the chance to explore a tomb, and that running away is a lose condition, even if you don't do it for very long, then you'll limit the challenge to people who can chase down a teleporting character, which probably isn't what was intended.

I'm happy to stick my neck out with an idea, a 15th level character called Mysterio. He has the vecna blooded to fit in with your stipulation that fantastic amounts of pre-diviniation not be a thing. But I'd rather see if the board can work out how to kill it/not be killed by it without knowing what the build is.

[Amphetryon]

I'm beginning to get the impression that this forum is more interested in pointing out how wrong I am to assume that anything a non-caster can do will matter against a primary caster than to actually attempt my build idea. Is it impossible for me to get an honest attempt at this aside from what I've already gotten?

So far, I haven't gotten a clear enough understanding of both what you think should be allowed, and what the opposing Wizard is likely to be packing for defenses, to even begin to attempt a reasonable build. This is compounded by the general reality that what's reasonable to stop a Wizard at level 6, often won't apply at level 9, and so forth, so a precise Character Level would be more useful. This, in turn, leads to the "Schrodinger's Wizard Problem" where any given attack attempt can be thwarted by giving the Wizard an appropriate defense simply because the Wizard isn't fully statted. If you fully stat the Wizard, then the challenge is no longer 'beat a hypothetical Wizard,' but 'beat this particular Wizard, assuming full and accurate foreknowledge of his capabilities.'


Alright, here's a question. Is contingency abuse like described by previous posts REALLY so common that it should be assumed of any bog-standard Caster with access to the spell? If not, then including it into this is patently unfair. Again, we already know that any non-caster is completely horse-buggered by an optimized caster. I'm wanting to find out if it's possible to have a decent shot against a standard one. If this IS standard, then so be it, but I will be excluding it in a rules update if so. This is getting ridiculous; we're spending more time talking about the caster than the actual character that's being built.What you consider 'standard' isn't necessarily what I would consider standard, or what ryu would consider standard, or HammeredWharf, etc. This is central to the problem with this 'challenge.'

[Togo]

This isn't the spell contingency. Look up craft contingent spell. It's one of the most powerful feats in the entire game to the point where I would openly state that anyone who doesn't take it but has access is actively holding back.

In other words, because it is a good choice for wizards, you want to assume it is possessed by all wizards, even though this directly contradicts the original terms of the challenge.

[ryu]

In other words, because it is a good choice for wizards, you want to assume it is possessed by all wizards, even though this directly contradicts the original terms of the challenge.

In other words it's bloody standard at my table to the point where people give the party wizard looks if he doesn't take it on time. Not short looks either. We're talking long, awkward, how on earth have they managed to not blink for this long looks.

[Nightraiderx]

The largest problem gauging any of this is the fact that wizards can jump tiers of effectiveness based on the optimization skill of the player.
You can have blasters of low tier to infinite wish god tier 0. That's why it's hard to distinguish a "standard" wizard because of this ridiculously wide floor of optimization.

[Xerlith]

okay. An idea - OP make 2-3 builds and the playground tries to come up with builds that can kill any of the three. Both sides should use Iron Chef manner of presenting builds. How about it?

[GreyBlack]

My reply to this thread is that it's likely patently impossible. While player skill always trumps, the wizard/CoDzilla has so many tools at her disposal that they're going to win. However, you make a special now of saying "primary spellcaster" which sends my mind immediately to the Duskblade or Magus from Pathfinder. Both possess a huge array of anti -Mage tools while also being primarily melee combatants. Another alternative is to go psychic rogue/slayer. Focus your build on your opponent having a ****e non-will save and have fun.

[Togo]

Have you already considered and discarded the possibility that everyone has been honest, and the structure of 3.5 without houserules is simply stacked too far in favor of the caster? There's a reason we jokingly refer to Wizard Wednesdays and Tier Thursdays;

Of course there is. It's because none of the previous threads have actually resolved the issue. :smallcool: It's a popular topic, people like to post about it.

And you're forgetting Monk Monday, Template stacking Tuesday, Fear-My-Build Friday, Rebalancing the rules around my own table's habits Saturday, and DM/player sucks Sunday


this argument/request about making a mundane who can beat a full caster is darn near literally a weekly event, and frequently it goes waaaaaay further than your vague hypothetical did - occasionally it gets as far as builds being posted and dissected. We have been doing this for a very long time, repeating the same cycle over and over with each new person who believes they have figured out the secret to caster-killing and gently (or brutally) crushing their dreams. Very few people are willing to attempt something they've 'attempted' dozens of times in the past to no avail, just to prove said points to the latest in a long line of misguided optimists.

Hm.. That reminds me.... That thread where the matter was resolved without reference to game-breaking interpretations of individual spells, Schrodinger's wizard, or levels of optimisation not commonly found in an actual game. You know, that thread that resolved the matter using not just assumptions you're comfortable with, but for all starting assumptions for everyone everywhere, so that it could truly be said the subject had been entirely resolved already and that there was nothing left to discuss. Can you remind why there isn't a link to that? Maybe you could post it here?

It strikes me that optimised non-wizard specialised at killing wizards, versus non-optimised blah wizard build is a contest where I'd bet on the specialist. Because building bad wizards is pretty darned easy. Just look at the example builds in the rule books.

[HammeredWharf]

This is getting ridiculous; we're spending more time talking about the caster than the actual character that's being built.

We have to know what the martial guy is up against to determine if he can win. A standard lvl 15 Wizard in my game can craft contingent spells, deal 30+ negative levels or hundreds of force damage per turn, teleport as an Immediate/Swift action, etc. She is, however, not an Incantatrix or a Hathran or a Tainted Scholar. I probably play in high-op games by most standards, but even then I see plenty of noncasters in play. However, they don't specialize in solo mage slaying. It's impractical and not something mundanes are good at.

[Togo]

okay. An idea - OP make 2-3 builds and the playground tries to come up with builds that can kill any of the three. Both sides should use Iron Chef manner of presenting builds. How about it?

Are these mage builds, or non-mage builds?


We have to know what the martial guy is up against to determine if he can win. A standard lvl 15 Wizard in my game can craft contingent spells, deal 30+ negative levels or hundreds of force damage per turn, teleport as an Immediate/Swift action, etc. She is, however, not an Incantatrix or a Hathran or a Tainted Scholar.

A standard level 15 wizard in my game can't do any of these things, except for the force damage. Any game where they could wouldn't reach 15th level.

This is the problem. There's little or no agreement as to what a wizard is like, and the fate of any potential challenger depends on what variations one's own group considers standard.

[Renen]

Reason why people think only 2 PrCs is weird is because unlike casters who can just transfer into a good PrC that gives caster progression, most mundanes dip around alot for all the 1st level goodies while keeping up the BAB.

Now... for killing a mage:
Darkstalker, incorporeal, mindless creature that has sky-high hide check.
Then some MoI cheese to get insane SR via Spellweave shirt (I think its called)
Wizard now cant see you, you have a good chance to resist most spells, and you can just use w/e level you like to track him down and neutralize. Just find a way to keep him from porting away.

[Nightraiderx]

Reason why people think only 2 PrCs is weird is because unlike casters who can just transfer into a good PrC that gives caster progression, most mundanes dip around alot for all the 1st level goodies while keeping up the BAB.

Now... for killing a mage:
Darkstalker, incorporeal, mindless creature that has sky-high hide check.
Then some MoI cheese to get insane SR via Spellweave shirt (I think its called)
Wizard now cant see you, you have a good chance to resist most spells, and you can just use w/e level you like to track him down and neutralize. Just find a way to keep him from porting away.

If it's mindless, how can it strategize? And what about SR:NO spells? How would it deal with force-wall effects? What kind of damage are you attempting to deal on it?

[Togo]

My usual approach is to produce a build with self-healing, several unusual immunities and resistances, and then wait for the wizard to exhaust his spell slots trying to work out what the character is and why it just won't die. It works well unless the wizard is assumed to be all-knowing due to some fairly liberal interpretations of divination effects, or can retroactively configure his spells slots in response to the encounter (aka Schrodinger's wizard). The obvious response to someone who can deal with any threat is to disguise what threat you are until it's too late.

[Vaz]

Neraph PsyWar 1/Fighter 4/Jaunter 4/Marshal 1/Paladin 2/Crusader 2/Battledancer 1/Tattooed Monk 5

Practised Manifester, Metamorphic Transfer, Tattooed Monk prereq's

Take the form of a Visilight using Chameleon tattoo. Steal Charisma from anything and everything you can get your hands on, pumping up your Charisma sky high. Use Jaunter to get to the God's domains. Use Diplomacy to get them to be fanatical (bluff them into lowering their immunity to Mind Affecting). Then tell them to use their intelligence to find someway of optimizing themselves. Then direct them to defeat the Wizard.

[Vogonjeltz]

1) The character in question is NOT to have any levels in a primary caster class. This includes Wizards, Clerics, Druids, Psions, Sorcerers, and all other classes of the like. Even the gish-types (such as Bard, Paladin, Warlock, etc.) are going to be restricted (dips only for these, try and keep it to 3 levels max in one of these base classes for a LV20 build).

I'm inferring from this that we're showing something character level 20 (i.e. ECL 20).

Ok. I have something.

So, describe the Mage. How does the killer know about them? What does the killer know about them?

[Delwugor]

My namesake isn't very smart and never understood the whole linear fighter/quadratic wizard concept. So he would shrug and get the job done, leaving behind the dead bodies of cleric, wizards, sorcerers and other casters.

Nothing special for his D&D build fighter4/barbarian9, great axe which all fear, belt of giant's strength but since it was given to him by a good cleric it's "not magical" (ha). But build aside he understood a basic tactical concept, don't fight an enemy's strength, fight their weakness with your strength.

For example at level 12 he one shoted a 16th level Drow Sorceress that was invisible at the time. He knew he couldn't do anything directly with that situation, so instead he went off and started destroying items in the room. The Drow (and GM I'm guessing) decided he was just a stupid fighter and not worth the time and effort since he wasn't a threat. He let the rest of the group attempt to locate and fight her; and after a bit they did enough to pinpoint the square she was on at that moment. Action time! Immediate charge on that spot and making both the invisibility roll and hitting squarely, he did his usual disproportional damage and one dead Drow lay on the ground.

As a few have mentioned the system may say it can't be done, but it is doable in actual play - though that doesn't mean it's easy or straight forward.

[HammeredWharf]

Here's my non-Schrödinger, generic mid-op Wizard build. He's lvl 10, because that's right in the middle and really nice number that's both straight and round.

Genericus Conjurus
Lvl 10 Human Focused Specialist Conjurer Wizard 10
Banned schools: Necromancy, Enchantment

28 point buy:
Str 8
Dex 18 (14 base, +4 item)
Con 16 (14 base, +2 item)
Int 24 (18 base, +2 lvl, +4 item)
Wis 8
Cha 8

Items:
Stat boosts
Lesser Silent Rod
Panic Button: Escape
Natural Armor +1, Deflection +1

Feats:
Arcane Thesis (Orb of Fire)
Metamagic School Focus (Conjuration)
Quicken Spell
Empower Spell
Cooperative Spell
Energy Substitution (Acid)
Improved Initiative

Spells:
1: Nerveskitter x3, Obscuring Mist, Blockade x2, Grease, Expeditious Retreat (swift) x3
2: Heart of Air, Web, Glitterdust x2, Fog Cloud, Invisibility, Rope Trick, Bands of Steel, Gust of Wind, Blur
3: Heart of Water, Haste x2, Greater Mage Armor, Bands of Steel, Dimension Step x2, Corpse Candle, Phantom Steed, Sleet Storm
4: Heart of Earth, Orb of Force x2, Empowered Orb of Fire, Greater Mirror Image, Anticipate Teleportation, Black Tentacles, Polymorph
5: Heart of Fire, Quickened Orb of Fire (Acid), Quickened Orb of Fire, Overland Flight, Wall of Stone, Teleport

HP: 76,5
AC: 24 (14 touch)
Initiative: +13
Attack: +9 touch, ~100 damage per round
Movement: 200 ft Phantom Steed, 40 ft flight

As I said, very vanilla. You could easily fine-tune his spell selection and add some extra contingencies to beef him up. Keep in mind that, for it to be viable, the slayer build would have to be able to kill other things, too. For example, he could Planar Bind a Nightmare and spend his life in Astral Projection.

Edit: Removed Craft Contingent Spell. Added bonus spells from high Intelligence. Removed Assay Spell Resistance, as a Conjuration specialist doesn't really need it.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

I agree that the PrC restriction is weird. I've played at low-op tables and I've never seen that kind of rule. No one cares what PrCs you take as long as you have some sort of in-game explanation for your abilities. I also disagree that ToB is necessarily the right choice for a mundane to fight casters. It's a nice option for low-op folk to fight alongside casters. That said it's moot. Renen had the right idea, but I think the break point of this discussion is the level restriction. To my knowledge it's level 5, correct? Against a level 5 wizard who isn't particularly optimized?

When I think "not particularly optimized" I think:
No ghostwise halflings with mindsight.
No dragon magazine content.
No silly initiative pumping.

What I think of is someone who has mage armor and false life up, and prepares decent spells, but not someone who can detect a stealth ambush automatically, and not someone who can survive two rounds of ambush. At least not at level 5.

Dark Strongheart Halfling Whirlpounce Barbarian 1/SA Drow Fighter 1/Totemist 2 with two flaws, Darkstalker, Craven, Multiattack, Improved Initiative and Weapon Finesse. Also spend cash improving initiative; it's potentially more important than a little extra damage.

Step 0: Have a very respectable hide/move silently (racial +8 hide +8 move silently, +4 size bonus to hide, plus half ranks, plus good dex, plus other investments like kruthik claws if necessary). Have a decent strength, but focus on dex. Bind Girallon Arms to your totem chakra.
Step 1: Sneak into partial charge position (30' for dark halflings).
Step 2: Surprise round, partial charge/pounce against flat-footed wizard with 5 claw attacks (whirlpounce) doing 1d4+str/2+dex+1d6+5+essentia damage. This gets to around ~20 damage a pop by my count, or a little less if you dumped strength or needed essentia to pump stealth. Attack bonus is 3 BaB + 2 charge + essentia + dex, -2 for secondary attacks, which should be enough to hit a likely flatfooted AC of 14 four out of five attempts.
Step 3: If you've killed him, celebrate/slink back into the shadows. If you haven't, win initiative. You pumped it for a reason.
Step 4: Finish him off with another full attack. If he has buddies, or if he's not dead, pop a chronocharm of the horizon walker to move half speed back into the shadows and hide.

Edit: If you don't think the wizard is going to survive the first round, replace improved initiative with Martial Study: some shadow hand maneuver that catches your fancy, and have hide as a class skill. Or be ECL 6 (or ECL 5 with buyoff) and have the first level be Swordsage or Rogue, and you'll have ~3/4 ranks.

[Darkweave31]

I'm beginning to get the impression that this forum is more interested in pointing out how wrong I am to assume that anything a non-caster can do will matter against a primary caster than to actually attempt my build idea. Is it impossible for me to get an honest attempt at this aside from what I've already gotten?

There is a certain value of knowing what the build will have to compete with in order to actually perform as a mage slayer. It's one thing to be able to stab a wizard while locked in combat, whole different tack of actually getting to that point. As I said, the build has a limited number of options to deal with an opponent that has nearly unlimited options.

How do you track an opponent that teleports everywhere? Or plane shifts to a private demiplane that can't be accessed by anyone else?

How do you deal with the numerous means of indirect engagement that the wizard has (Simulacra, Planar Binding, Symbols, Explosive runes, Illusions, Walls of Force, Prismatic Walls, Dominated Creatures, and dozens of other examples that will drain resources even getting to them)?

How do you prevent teleportation escapes? Death contingencies (clone)? Astral projections? Even abrupt jaunt can get the wizard out of a lockdown build.

In order to win against a spellcaster the circumstances have to be on the mage slayer's side, but the mage engineers the circumstances. You're relying on a caster's mistake or favorable luck (even then, contingencies).

I'm not aware of any build that can address all of these areas without countering them with similar magic. Of course, an optimized mage slayer could probably take down several unoptimized or poorly played mages before they run into a trick that they didn't account for and have to retreat. Problem is that now they can't just change their entire build to counter that trick that they are caught up on. Best they could do is find an item to do it assuming they have the funds and it exists. How do you account for every spell in existence?

[dascarletm]

There is a certain value of knowing what the build will have to compete with in order to actually perform as a mage slayer. It's one thing to be able to stab a wizard while locked in combat, whole different tack of actually getting to that point. As I said, the build has a limited number of options to deal with an opponent that has nearly unlimited options.

How do you track an opponent that teleports everywhere? Or plane shifts to a private demiplane that can't be accessed by anyone else?

How do you deal with the numerous means of indirect engagement that the wizard has (Simulacra, Planar Binding, Symbols, Explosive runes, Illusions, Walls of Force, Prismatic Walls, Dominated Creatures, and dozens of other examples that will drain resources even getting to them)?

How do you prevent teleportation escapes? Death contingencies (clone)? Astral projections? Even abrupt jaunt can get the wizard out of a lockdown build.

In order to win against a spellcaster the circumstances have to be on the mage slayer's side, but the mage engineers the circumstances. You're relying on a caster's mistake or favorable luck (even then, contingencies).

I'm not aware of any build that can address all of these areas without countering them with similar magic. Of course, an optimized mage slayer could probably take down several unoptimized or poorly played mages before they run into a trick that they didn't account for and have to retreat. Problem is that now they can't just change their entire build to counter that trick that they are caught up on. Best they could do is find an item to do it assuming they have the funds and it exists. How do you account for every spell in existence?
You need this

1: I think the way to do it would be to build a character that takes the offensive against unsuspecting casters. (by unsuspecting I mean not suspecting you, specifically). Things like vecna-blooded would be a must for this.

2: The character would need a way of drawing out the opponent. This has some drawbacks, as it means fighting the wizard while he/she is prepared for a nice romp. This is of course only needed for a wizard that has been successful enough to have a neigh impregnable home.

3: The build would need a reliable way of shutting down the caster once he/she has engaged. An Idea that springs to mind is UMD + Staff of Antimagic field. There are counters to this on the wizard's end as well, but those need to be accounted for.

4: Keeping the wizarding community from gaining knowledge of your existence may be a problem. Depends on the organization of wizards in the setting, and would need to be addressed for each one specifically.

[maniacalmojo]

I see a problem in a lot of peoples responses here. You are suggesting that every wizard will play as an optimized form of wizard using player exploits not a reguler NPC wizard casting as a wizard is supposed too. Not every wizard would be geared towards secluding themselves in a foreign dimension with permenancy spells lining the walls and scrying every potential threat that would ever potentially come after you. Normal NPC stats are around 13-14 for the highest stat and some stats will fall below 10 especially if the wizard is as old as he should be given that he has reached high levels meaning he will possibly have really reduced con scores if nothing else. They are also going to structure their lairs like well any dungeon that a regular D&D dungeon is comprised of. Some spell traps, some monsters or summons or something. Mabie a few spells around in case someone happened into his lair. He still would periodically leave for various reasons such as being invited to something, going to gather supplies (arcane focus, alchemical supplies, food, raw materials for crafting)

Meanwhile on the other hand the other person has specifically trained his life towards catching, killing, stopping and slaying mages. He may have some form of spell resistance and gear his gear towards specifically targeting each mage he fights. possibly some ranks in spellthief plus having spell resistance and using antimagic scrolls or somehow having an item that creates a field of antimagic. Sneak through and bind the wizard so he cannot teleport and then sap his magic and aprehend him or something.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

I see a problem in a lot of peoples responses here. You are suggesting that every wizard will play as an optimized form of wizard using player exploits not a reguler NPC wizard casting as a wizard is supposed too. Not every wizard would be geared towards secluding themselves in a foreign dimension with permenancy spells lining the walls and scrying every potential threat that would ever potentially come after you. Normal NPC stats are around 13-14 for the highest stat and some stats will fall below 10 especially if the wizard is as old as he should be given that he has reached high levels meaning he will possibly have really reduced con scores if nothing else. They are also going to structure their lairs like well any dungeon that a regular D&D dungeon is comprised of. Some spell traps, some monsters or summons or something. Mabie a few spells around in case someone happened into his lair. He still would periodically leave for various reasons such as being invited to something, going to gather supplies (arcane focus, alchemical supplies, food, raw materials for crafting)

Meanwhile on the other hand the other person has specifically trained his life towards catching, killing, stopping and slaying mages. He may have some form of spell resistance and gear his gear towards specifically targeting each mage he fights. possibly some ranks in spellthief plus having spell resistance and using antimagic scrolls or somehow having an item that creates a field of antimagic. Sneak through and bind the wizard so he cannot teleport and then sap his magic and aprehend him or something.The problem with this line of thinking is that the best non-casting way to kill a relatively unoptimized NPC mage is the same way to kill anyone who is level-appropriate and not particularly optimized. Stealth up, get the jump on them, and kill them in one round. Mage Slayer is completely optional given that the best time to kill a low-op wizard is when he's flatfooted and hasn't cast any of those pesky short term buffs.

The only problem is higher levels, when even a low-op wizard will have a contingency. Get a greater dispelling weapon and hope you hitting him doesn't trigger anything... or make sure your build works well in an AMF, get a torc of AMF, and again rely on the fact that the enemy is low op while you're not.

[Qwertystop]

I remember reading a build a while back... don't remember the details but it was a Paladin that somehow got Earthglide (and the ability to attack from it?). That blocks LoE, which shuts down a lot of a Wizard's offense (though it doesn't stop them from running or using certain specific offenses). Obviously not perfect on its own, but I don't remember enough of the rest of it, there might have been more to it - anyone got a clue what I'm thinking of? :smallconfused:

[aleucard]

Alright. People have been wanting me to come up with scenarios involving wizards for them to build towards, so I'll try my hand. If you wish to leave any segment to another party member so you can focus on dealing with the actual caster at the end (assume that you're fighting him without PC/Cohort backup), then specify.

Scenario 1) In the process of doing a routine inspection/cleaning of a family crypt, a dormant phylactery was accidentally touched by one of the workers. He was drained in full view of the rest of the workers, with a Lich reanimating from the added energy. Whether this specific lich was arcane or divine, or even supposed to be in the crypt in the first place (as a member of the family) is unknown. The lich is presumably weakened at the moment, though, owing to the fact that its phylactery needed a 'jump-start' to reanimate the prick. As time goes by, he will both get stronger and be able to bring about more undead for his own defense/perusal. Character level: 20

Scenario 2) You are part of a stealth-oriented batallion in an army at war. The opposing side has an outpost nearby in some plains-land, loosely defended save for a single arcane caster with a penchant for distance combat (read: sniper). He is known to be capable of Divination and at least some Abjuration. Your job is to sneak in, retrieve any intel they may have, and hopefully kill the caster while raising as much Hell as possible without being caught or killed in turn. Character Level: 15

Scenario 3) A druid has set up nearby a farming/hunting town in some forested mountains. Said druid consistently makes raids on the town with several nature spirits once a week demanding a boon for the town's use of nature's bounty, or whatever madness he's been speaking in broken Elvish any time he doesn't speak in Druid (and is thus incomprehensible) The town has offered a large bounty for the solving of this particular problem, by any and all means necessary. Character Level: 10

What do you guys think? I'm not providing specific builds, because really nobody in an actual game would know what their opponent's character sheet looks like unless if it's another player they helped put theirs together. Assume them to be run like NPCs.

[A_S]

What do you guys think? I'm not providing specific builds, because really nobody in an actual game would know what their opponent's character sheet looks like unless if it's another player they helped put theirs together. Assume them to be run like NPCs.
This doesn't make very much sense, though. You're right that in an actual game, players don't typically have knowledge of their opponents' builds...but this thread isn't a game, it's (supposed to be) an exercise in talking about what kinds of mundane builds are capable of killing mages. In order for anybody to come up with a reasonable answer to that question, they have to have some information about what kind of build the mages in question have. Otherwise, they just post the build, and we still don't have any new information about whether it's good at killing mages.

Imagine somebody posts a build in response to your scenario #1. Let's say it has a Torc of Antimagic, wears a lead-lined helmet, has good mundane stealth skills, a high move speed, and a high grapple check. You might say:

"Yeah, that totally works! The AMF shuts down the lich and his frail form is easy pickins for your scary grappling."

...or you might say:

"Nope, that doesn't work. The lich, like all competent high level spellcasters, has mindsight, which isn't blocked by lead sheeting. It uses Celerity (which of course it has prepared) to move out of the way of your AMF (which is no problem because immediate actions resolve before their triggers), then drops a ridiculously high Save or Lose on you. You're dead."

Neither of those responses tells us anything about the "mage-killer" build in question.

-----

The reason people are pushing you to post details about the mages to be killed is because the answer to your question will differ depending on what abilities the target has. Post a mage, and somebody will come along and say, "here's a build that would do pretty well against that." Keep refusing to post details on the mages in question, and you're just going to get more responses like the ones you've been getting: Mundanes are pretty bad at killing mages, their ability to do so at all depends on the level of optimization of the mage in question, and it's pointless to post builds without a more specific target in mind.

[aleucard]

Alright, if you want to be a smartass about it.....

New rules!

1) The Casters do not have access to anything that would allow them to act out-of-turn except for things that adjust their position in the initiative ranking. This means that things such as Celerity are banned for their use.

2) The Casters aren't allowed to do single-level dips in anything for only a single specific ability available to that class. This removes the allowance of mindsight by way of the Mindbender class unless if the build is going to do more things with it than its Telepathy ability. If the character has telepathy by other qualifiable methods, however, those may be used.

3) The Caster is only allowed to have 1 Base Class and a maximum of 2 Prestige Classes. The Tier adjustment of each Prestige Class must balance out to zero or less as described by http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5198.0 or any other acceptable Tier Listing for Prestige Classes. If the Caster only takes a single Prestige Class, it must have a Tier Adjustment of zero or less.

4) The Caster may only pull material from 2 extra books aside from the Monster Manuals, Dungeon Master Guides, and Player's Handbooks. If so much as a skillpoint is put into a skill mentioned in a book, then that book counts for this.

Bear in mind that I'm not a Tippyverse Veteran, and as such don't have the system mastery required to give a decent build without more work than a thought exercise (not a campaign) deserves. If you want to make a campaign, though, then I'm all for it.

[Jeff the Green]

Alright, if you want to be a smartass about it.....

New rules!

1) The Casters do not have access to anything that would allow them to act out-of-turn except for things that adjust their position in the initiative ranking. This means that things such as Celerity are banned for their use.

2) The Casters aren't allowed to do single-level dips in anything for only a single specific ability available to that class. This removes the allowance of mindsight by way of the Mindbender class unless if the build is going to do more things with it than its Telepathy ability. If the character has telepathy by other qualifiable methods, however, those may be used.

3) The Caster is only allowed to have 1 Base Class and a maximum of 2 Prestige Classes. The Tier adjustment of each Prestige Class must balance out to zero or less as described by http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5198.0 or any other acceptable Tier Listing for Prestige Classes. If the Caster only takes a single Prestige Class, it must have a Tier Adjustment of zero or less.

4) The Caster may only pull material from 2 extra books aside from the Monster Manuals, Dungeon Master Guides, and Player's Handbooks. If so much as a skillpoint is put into a skill mentioned in a book, then that book counts for this.

Bear in mind that I'm not a Tippyverse Veteran, and as such don't have the system mastery required to give a decent build without more work than a thought exercise (not a campaign) deserves. If you want to make a campaign, though, then I'm all for it.

That... doesn't help. It's still Schrodinger's wizard. There are so freaking many possibilities within those restrictions that they're meaningless.

[Endarire]

Just check my sig.

[137beth]

Okay, I'll make it easier, by telling you the Wizard's first move(s):

The first time the wizard has a turn out of melee range (presumably because the wizard won initiative, or got surprise, or used celerity+foresight or another trick), it casts Disjunction on you. It follows up with a quickened teleport, buffs up, and comes back for a surprise round.

Good luck without items!

[Aegis013]

I think HammeredWharf has the right idea. In order to meet OP's wishes, the best way to do it would probably be to post a handful of caster builds and then have playgrounders try to create mundanes that might be able to beat as many of those caster builds as they can manage.

I'm going to posit a mediocre 7th level Cleric for this purpose. We'll assume mage-killer is going to wait until the Cleric is out questing/adventuring and not hanging out with his town cleric/paladin posse, so Cleric will be fully buffed. Cleric ignores alignment rules. Lots of tables do that, so it should be fine.

Strongheart Halfling
Cloistered Cleric 5/Divine Oracle 2
32 pt buy
Str 10(+6enhancement,+2sacred)
Dex 10
Con 14(+2sacred)
Int 8
Wis 19
Cha 14

Domains: Planning, Undeath
Feats:
Extend Spell (Planning Domain)
Extra Turning (Undeath Domain)
Knowledge Devotion (Knowledge Domain)
1. Persistent Spell
shh. Divine Metamagic: Persistent Spell
3. Skill Focus: Knowledge(Religion)
6. Power Attack

Turning attempts: 9 + 8 (gear) (2 persists/day)
Relevant Equipment:
Nightstick x2
Rod of Extend, lesser
Scroll of Dimensional Anchor
Scroll of Guidance of the Avatar
Heavy Steel Shield
Light Crossbow
100 bolts
10 spell component pouches & relevant spell focuses
10 holy symbols
Morningstar (backup weapon)

Spells Active:
Persisted: Extended Persistent Divine Power cast yesterday, Extended Persistent Freedom of Movement cast yesterday, Extended Persistent Ice Axe (3rd level) cast today, Extended Persistent Lesser Holy Transformation (4th level) cast today, Extended Greater Luminous Armor (4th level) cast today.

Spells prepared:
4th - Deathward
3rd - Dispel Magic, Alter Fortune, Animate Dead
2nd - Divine Insight, Darkboltx3, Desecrate
1st - Resurgence, Protection from Evil, Protection from Chaos, Omen of Perilx2, Detect Undead

Combat stats:
HP: 53
AC: 20, T: 10, FF: 20 (-4 to enemy's to hit if it's a melee attack, so effectively 24)
Fly 60ft (good)
Fort: +10, Ref: +4, Will: +13
Atk: +12/+7 (or more) vs Touch AC for 2d12+3 cold damage.

General tactics: Due to Omen of Peril, assume that the Cleric is on high alert and unless you can foil divinations, you don't get the drop on him easily. He'll first try to fly up, and cast dimensional anchor against the mage-killer.
If Mage-killer can't fly, he'll buff to high heaven. (Protections, Death Ward, even Guidance of the Avatar and Divine Insight to Knowledge Devotion)
If Mage-killer can fly and pursues, Cleric will attempt to kite unleashing his casts of Darkbolt against Mage-killer.
If/when Mage-killer engages the Cleric in melee combat, Cleric will power attack with Ice Axe to try to out damage Mage-killer.

[Snowbluff]

If UMD is an allowed thing, a single scroll (to be safe, bring three) of Antimagic Ray will destroy a caster unless he happens to be an Initiate of Mystra or is willing to pop an Invoke Magic for every spell he casts. Ideally, a scroll of Celerity will also get brought out to ensure that the Wizard can't just pop a Spellcraft check and then Celerity into Greater Dispel Magic to deal with the AMR.

Nope. AMR has a will save. It's Major Teh Suck.

The first requirement screws everything up. I had a gestalt character named Seraciel. She was a rogue with the ACFs for a dodge bonus versus spells, and they ability to reflect them on a successful save. The other half was Master Abjurer and Abjurant Champ. She was ability to toss a Dispel Magic at +19 as a swift action. She also had the ability to deliver AMF as a touch spell. If successful (it's a touch spell, so you never know), she would be able to bombard a helpless caster with orbs. A regular caster wouldn't stand a chance, but a savvy wizard would be able to work around it.

As for the caster, Beguiler. Game over, man! Game over! The guy has you outclassed as a mundane skill user. His army of buddies will completely flood you. He can hide, run away, and then bluff all major officials into hunting you down. :smalltongue:

Beguiler6/Shadowdancer1
Feat of note: Dark Stalker. :smalltongue::smalltongue::smalltongue:

EDIT: I haven't even used any books yet. Give him a level in... Vecna Blooded Template. Yeah! Between that, Hide, Invisibilty, Dark Stalker, and HiPS, he's pretty much undetectable. I think only mindsight and touchsight might work. I might have a way of making him incorporeal without making him a ghost...

Darkstalker is -1 for a rogue, I think, so it's like -2 for a Beguiler. :smallbiggrin:

[Togo]

OK, I'll bite. Let's go lich 20


Mysterio floats into view. He's Large, wearing a suit of Mammoth leather that obscures his entire body, including leather gauze over the eye slits. He carries a pair of green parrots in a birdcage in one hand, and has a dog on a string in the other. He's floating a few inches off the ground. He carries a longbow, two javelins, a greatsword and a dagger.


And.... sniper 15

Mysterio is attempting to stealthily enter the house. What happens?

[ben-zayb]

Nope. AMR has a will save. It's Major Teh Suck.

The first requirement screws everything up. I had a gestalt character named Seraciel. She was a rogue with the ACFs for a dodge bonus versus spells, and they ability to reflect them on a successful save. The other half was Master Abjurer and Abjurant Champ. She was ability to toss a Dispel Magic at +19 as a swift action. She also had the ability to deliver AMF as a touch spell. If successful (it's a touch spell, so you never know), she would be able to bombard a helpless caster with orbs. A regular caster wouldn't stand a chance, but a savvy wizard would be able to work around it.

As for the caster, Beguiler. Game over, man! Game over! The guy has you outclassed as a mundane skill user. His army of buddies will completely flood you. He can hide, run away, and then bluff all major officials into hunting you down. :smalltongue:

Beguiler6/Shadowdancer1
Feat of note: Dark Stalker. :smalltongue::smalltongue::smalltongue:

EDIT: I haven't even used any books yet. Give him a level in... Vecna Blooded Template. Yeah! Between that, Hide, Invisibilty, Dark Stalker, and HiPS, he's pretty much undetectable. I think only mindsight and touchsight might work. I might have a way of making him incorporeal without making him a ghost...

Darkstalker is -1 for a rogue, I think, so it's like -2 for a Beguiler. :smallbiggrin:A 9th-level-spell caster gestalt beating another non-gestalt caster... this is unprecedented!:smallcool:

[prufock]

I'm not the OP, but I want to see this exercise worked out, so I'm going to try to limit the variability of the wizard we're up against.

1 - No prestige classes at all. Wizard to 20 levels.
2 - Races, classes, feats, skills, spells, mundane equipment, etc from PHB only.
3 - Magic equipment from DMG only, no custom items.
4 - Summons (if any) from MM only.

Is this enough restriction?

[ryu]

I'm not the OP, but I want to see this exercise worked out, so I'm going to try to limit the variability of the wizard we're up against.

1 - No prestige classes at all. Wizard to 20 levels.
2 - Races, classes, feats, skills, spells, mundane equipment, etc from PHB only.
3 - Magic equipment from DMG only, no custom items.
4 - Summons (if any) from MM only.

Is this enough restriction?

Pretty sure that includes efreets which means endless wishes and all the silly that comes with it.

[Togo]

If you're going to allow endless wishes via an efreet loop, the wizards lose already. There are other builds that are better at exploiting that particular loop than wizards are.

[ryu]

If you're going to allow endless wishes via an efreet loop, the wizards lose already. There are other builds that are better at exploiting that particular loop than wizards are.

Those builds, however, are decidedly not mundane. The wizard has far, FAR, more native access to it and earlier than anything that meets the conditions set forth for eligible challengers since the start of the thread.

[Togo]

Those builds, however, are decidedly not mundane.

??? Mundane?


The wizard has far, FAR, more native access to it

Native access?


and earlier than anything that meets the conditions set forth for eligible challengers since the start of the thread.

Are we talking about the same trick here?

[ryu]

??? Mundane?



Native access?



Are we talking about the same trick here?

The easy way? Planar bind an efreet and use standard protocol to break it cha check until it's incapable of denying you. If you're worried about any sort of chicanery a scroll of mindrape and some standard save reducers might also be useful, but we still have far more and better access to these things than anyone who isn't a caster of some sort.

The only class with a debate here below tier 1 is paladin and only if pazuzu is in direct play.

[prufock]

The easy way? Planar bind an efreet and use standard protocol to break it cha check until it's incapable of denying you. If you're worried about any sort of chicanery a scroll of mindrape and some standard save reducers might also be useful, but we still have far more and better access to these things than anyone who isn't a caster of some sort.

The only class with a debate here below tier 1 is paladin and only if pazuzu is in direct play.

Candles of Invocation are only 8400, well within WBL and before you'd get planar binding to boot. Unlimited wishes for everybody, earlier than the spell, so it's a draw in this regard.

[ryu]

Candles of Invocation are only 8400, well within WBL and before you'd get planar binding to boot. Unlimited wishes for everybody, earlier than the spell, so it's a draw in this regard.

Oh in that case wizard has a spellbook to sell at a time most convenient to him. Based on that alone he has a few thousand gold edge on every other class. Again you can't win this save pazuzu.

[Vaz]

A wizard at first level can pick up Mercantile Background feat to get partially charged Wands of Wall of Salt. This salt is sold in return for more wands of wall of salt. Rinse and repeat until you can afford candle of invocation. And salt is easier to sell than endless 10ft poles from ladders.

[Gemini476]

I'm not the OP, but I want to see this exercise worked out, so I'm going to try to limit the variability of the wizard we're up against.

1 - No prestige classes at all. Wizard to 20 levels.
2 - Races, classes, feats, skills, spells, mundane equipment, etc from PHB only.
3 - Magic equipment from DMG only, no custom items.
4 - Summons (if any) from MM only.

Is this enough restriction?

Alrighty then. So Old Grey Elf Wizard 20 starting at Int 15 (Elite Array) for a total of 15+2(race)+2(age)+5(levels)+6(item)+5(Wish)=38.
His ninth-level spells have a DC of 10+9(level)+14(int)=33.

He is Astral Projecting from his nigh-impenetrable lair whilst adventuring (and has Foresight up!), and his true body has a Contingency on it set to Dispel Magic if an Alarm spell goes of and someone enters the lair. That Dispel Magic is an automatic success, and means that the Wizard can now proceed to mess with the mundanes invading his sanctum as they fight through the various Simulacra of himself and various monsters and have a generally (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/guardsAndWards.htm) horrible (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/phaseDoor.htm) time (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antipathy.htm)and (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesPrivateSanctum.htm) whatnot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/screen.htm).

How does fighting a Simulacra of a Tarrasque sound to you?

Also, would I be right in assuming that the Mage-Slayer is also bound to the same rules?

[Nightraiderx]

I'm not the OP, but I want to see this exercise worked out, so I'm going to try to limit the variability of the wizard we're up against.

1 - No prestige classes at all. Wizard to 20 levels.
2 - Races, classes, feats, skills, spells, mundane equipment, etc from PHB only.
3 - Magic equipment from DMG only, no custom items.
4 - Summons (if any) from MM only.

Is this enough restriction?

As shown above, CORE has the most broken spells in the entirety of D&D 3.5's existance.

[Togo]

Oh in that case wizard has a spellbook to sell at a time most convenient to him. Based on that alone he has a few thousand gold edge on every other class. Again you can't win this save pazuzu.

At least we've established that this a wealth trick, not a wizard trick, and that although the wizard could use class features to duplicate it, it's a less effective and slower way to do it.

[ryu]

At least we've established that this a wealth trick, not a wizard trick, and that although the wizard could use class features to duplicate it, it's a less effective and slower way to do it.

Nah. We've already also got the wealthy background feat combined with wall of salt shenanigans to quickly multiply wealth. It is not easy to out-money as caster at any level.

[Elric VIII]

I'm pretty sure that the best way to beat a wizard is to make him beat himself. Diplomacy jump is the best skill to achieve this.

Little Bobby was an angry child. What was he angry at? All this ground all over the place. "What right does it have to be there, all under me and stuff," he intoned. This hatred made him want to just jump away from that evil ground. Just about the time that he got his first level in Cancer Mage(BoVD), he was diagnosed with Festering Anger (BoVD). Then he waited a suitable amount of years later and jumped so high that all the wizards in the world decided to kill themselves. The end.

Elan Monk 9/Cancer Mage 1/Exemplar 5.

Feats: Great Fortitude, Poison Immunity, Toughness, Skill Focus (Jump), other stuff.


Catch Festering Anger: "Each day after the onset of this malady, the character takes 1d3 points of Constitution damage, but she gains a cumulative +2 enhancement bonus to Strength."
Wait an appropriate amount of time to get an arbitrarily large str score. Elans don't die from old age, so you can get it as high as you want.
Never die due to the Caner Mage ability, Disease Host: "At 1st level, a cancer mage suffers no ill effects of diseases, except for purely cosmetic ones such as boils, pockmarks, watery eyes, blackened skin, hair loss, foul smell, and so on."
Jump so well that the wizard is fanatically devoted to you.
Order him to sit there while you Flurry of Blows him to death for irony's sake.

This proves, once and for all, that Monk is, indeed, the best mage killer.:smalltongue:

[dascarletm]

I'm pretty sure that the best way to beat a wizard is to make him beat himself. Diplomacy jump is the best skill to achieve this.

Little Bobby was an angry child. What was he angry at? All this ground all over the place. "What right does it have to be there, all under me and stuff," he intoned. This hatred made him want to just jump away from that evil ground. Just about the time that he got his first level in Cancer Mage(BoVD), he was diagnosed with Festering Anger (BoVD). Then he waited a suitable amount of years later and jumped so high that all the wizards in the world decided to kill themselves. The end.

Elan Monk 9/Cancer Mage 1/Exemplar 5.

Feats: Great Fortitude, Poison Immunity, Toughness, Skill Focus (Jump), other stuff.


Catch Festering Anger: "Each day after the onset of this malady, the character takes 1d3 points of Constitution damage, but she gains a cumulative +2 enhancement bonus to Strength."
Wait an appropriate amount of time to get an arbitrarily large str score. Elans don't die from old age, so you can get it as high as you want.
Never die due to the Caner Mage ability, Disease Host: "At 1st level, a cancer mage suffers no ill effects of diseases, except for purely cosmetic ones such as boils, pockmarks, watery eyes, blackened skin, hair loss, foul smell, and so on."
Jump so well that the wizard is fanatically devoted to you.
Order him to sit there while you Flurry of Blows him to death for irony's sake.

This proves, once and for all, that Monk is, indeed, the best mage killer.:smalltongue:

I think that just beat the thread, or is that too large a logical jump to make?

[Snowbluff]

A 9th-level-spell caster gestalt beating another non-gestalt caster... this is unprecedented!:smallcool: The rogue side isn't that big of a deal. It was just something I did, and it turned out synergistic. I don't have a non-gestalt version, because I only did this in gestalt. :smallsmile:



How does fighting a Simulacra of a Tarrasque sound to you? Hey, that's my schtick! :smalltongue:


Also, would I be right in assuming that the Mage-Slayer is also bound to the same rules?

Oh sanp!

[dextercorvia]

I think that just beat the thread, or is that too large a logical jump to make?

Turning someone fantatical is mind-affecting. Guess what spell wizards get access to at level 15.

[Sewercop]

I'm pretty sure that the best way to beat a wizard is to make him beat himself. Diplomacy jump is the best skill to achieve this.

Little Bobby was an angry child. What was he angry at? All this ground all over the place. "What right does it have to be there, all under me and stuff," he intoned. This hatred made him want to just jump away from that evil ground. Just about the time that he got his first level in Cancer Mage(BoVD), he was diagnosed with Festering Anger (BoVD). Then he waited a suitable amount of years later and jumped so high that all the wizards in the world decided to kill themselves. The end.

Elan Monk 9/Cancer Mage 1/Exemplar 5.

Feats: Great Fortitude, Poison Immunity, Toughness, Skill Focus (Jump), other stuff.


Catch Festering Anger: "Each day after the onset of this malady, the character takes 1d3 points of Constitution damage, but she gains a cumulative +2 enhancement bonus to Strength."
Wait an appropriate amount of time to get an arbitrarily large str score. Elans don't die from old age, so you can get it as high as you want.
Never die due to the Caner Mage ability, Disease Host: "At 1st level, a cancer mage suffers no ill effects of diseases, except for purely cosmetic ones such as boils, pockmarks, watery eyes, blackened skin, hair loss, foul smell, and so on."
Jump so well that the wizard is fanatically devoted to you.
Order him to sit there while you Flurry of Blows him to death for irony's sake.

This proves, once and for all, that Monk is, indeed, the best mage killer.:smalltongue:

nice indeed.. but fanatical is mind affecting :D
try again

[dascarletm]

Turning someone fantatical is mind-affecting. Guess what spell wizards get access to at level 15.

Jump doesn't have the mind-affecting tag, specific trumps general.

[ryu]

Jump doesn't have the mind-affecting tag, specific trumps general.

And fanatical is more specific than jump. Not all diplomancy jumps are mind effecting. Those resulting in fanatical are though.

[dascarletm]

And fanatical is more specific than jump. Not all diplomancy jumps are mind effecting. Those resulting in fanatical are though.

Not that I am questioning you, but where is that ruling? I'm away from books, and want to check it out when I get home.

[ryu]

Not that I am questioning you, but where is that ruling? I'm away from books, and want to check it out when I get home.

Feats are being used to make a jump check substitute for a diplomacy check. Other than that diplomacy check happens as normal except with your jump modifier being the relevant thing.

Diplomacy checks weren't originally mind effecting to begin with. That's just the specific fanatical attitude achievable only through epic skill trick use which is significantly more specific than standard rules.

[HammeredWharf]

For reference, here's what d20 SRD has to say about fanatics: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#diplomacy)


Treat the fanatic attitude as a mind-affecting enchantment effect for purposes of immunity, save bonuses, or being detected by the Sense Motive skill.

So, it's arguably also prevented by Protection From Evil, but I'm not entirely sure about that. Not that any of it matters, because...


No DM who isn't running a Tippyverse campaign or similar will allow someone to put much more than this on their toon. Assume that this character is being built for an actual campaign.

...and I think few DMs would allow jumplomacy.

[Vaz]

I think that just beat the thread, or is that too large a logical jump to make?

Search for my tattooed monk build earlier on in the thread. It gets your bluff score high enough to get it to lower its MindAffecting immunity (i'm talking abouut a Deity here, not a Wizard mind) because you're totally not going to make a rushed diplomacy check to make it in one round.

[dascarletm]

For reference, here's what d20 SRD has to say about fanatics: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#diplomacy)


Thank you. Just what I was looking for.

[Elric VIII]

I think it would be easy enough to convince your now-helpful Wizard to lower his defenses, then make him fanatical.

As for Jumplomancy, I think the problem is more with the Diplomacy skill than the relatively unassuming Exemplar class. Seriously, the Exemplar class feature does exactly that with no roundabout interpretation. You do cool things and people like you more. The real issue is Diplomacy allowing you to become so charismatic that you literally control people's minds.

[Vogonjeltz]

Can we just have a wizard (just wizard please) build so that suggestions and modifications can be made?

Then at least there won't be objections like the one to the jumping élan.

[A_S]

Can we just have a wizard (just wizard please) build so that suggestions and modifications can be made?

HammeredWharf's mid-op conjurer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17497671&postcount=55) looked pretty reasonable to me.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

I have one critique of HammeredWharf's (indeed generally reasonable) conjurer. I'm not sure Craft Contingent Spell counts as mid-op, and more importantly I'm not sure his character qualifies for it. CCS has a pre-requisite of Caster Level 11. Without any contingent effects, a stealthy character with good surprise round offense can end him. If you bump him up to level 12 (the first time he can take the feat when he qualifies for it), the slayer probably ends up relying on greater dispelling weapons, which give him at least a decent shot of negating the contingencies before they activate. Note that the second contingency only comes online at the initiative phase, so if you're getting attacks in the surprise round you only have to worry about the surprise round. I'd suggest taking a -4 to make the attacks nonlethal so you don't trigger it at all, but that's metagaming.

Edit: I should also point out that this entire exercise merely shows that a mage restricted to medium levels of optimization is worse than a non-mage who has no such restrictions. Optimization level is indeed more important than class; but all else equal, for a mage and mundane to be on equal footing, the mundane requires more optimization.

[dextercorvia]

He also only dropped 2 schools as a focused conjurer. Not a major thing to fix, but it could come into play.

[Juntao112]

I have a mid-op core wizard (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=403227) if that helps. 32 point buy.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

I have a mid-op core wizard (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=403227) if that helps. 32 point buy.When would that wizard use COP, and what would he ask? Also, the builds I have in mind are non-core, which seems unsporting.

[tyckspoon]

I have one critique of HammeredWharf's (indeed generally reasonable) conjurer. I'm not sure Craft Contingent Spell counts as mid-op, and more importantly I'm not sure his character qualifies for it. CCS has a pre-requisite of Caster Level 11.

Well, it's an Item Creation feat, so if you can get +1 caster level from somewhere it could be taken as a Wizard bonus feat at level 10 (since it does specifically say caster level 11th and not Character level 11th or '11 levels in a spellcasting class' or similar..) I'm not sure where you'd get a generic caster-level bonus at that level without stepping into cheese levels greater than the rest of the build seems to want to use, tho, and qualifying for the feat with a conditional level bonus would likewise be weird and require more bending of sense and probable RAI than the character sketch provided would want to use.

[Flickerdart]

When would that wizard use COP, and what would he ask? Also, the builds I have in mind are non-core, which seems unsporting.
We should probably give up on core-only - there's not really anything available to mundanes that gets them in the same league as a caster, aside from WBL abuse (and even then, it's highly dubious). Something like Horizon Tripper is probably the best way to go in core-only.

[Juntao112]

When would that wizard use COP, and what would he ask?
I imagine it would play out like a game of 20 questions.


Also, the builds I have in mind are non-core, which seems unsporting.

Bring in all the mon-core material you want.

[HammeredWharf]

I have one critique of HammeredWharf's (indeed generally reasonable) conjurer. I'm not sure Craft Contingent Spell counts as mid-op, and more importantly I'm not sure his character qualifies for it. CCS has a pre-requisite of Caster Level 11.

Yes, I screwed up with that. I also forgot bonus spells from high Int. Now I've fixed it, but am not sure if adding Polymorph is entirely fair. On one hand, it's not much of an optimization trick and is a Core spell. On the other hand, it's really nasty even without any extra effort.


Without any contingent effects, a stealthy character with good surprise round offense can end him.

Keep in mind that the Wizard is immune to crits and SA, because he has all Heart of X spells on. You'd need a stealthy, non-SA build of some kind. Shadowpouncing would work, but I just added Anticipate Teleportation to his spell list. A Crinti Shadow Marauder could probably suprise and kill a lot of casters without Anticipate Teleportation or Mindsight, but by that point you're using a rather obscure class and assuming the casters don't use an extremely good spell from Spell Compendium. With AT on, the Marauder becomes nearly useless.


Edit: I should also point out that this entire exercise merely shows that a mage restricted to medium levels of optimization is worse than a non-mage who has no such restrictions. Optimization level is indeed more important than class; but all else equal, for a mage and mundane to be on equal footing, the mundane requires more optimization.

True. The Wizard I built doesn't even have a PRC.

[Togo]

Nah. We've already also got the wealthy background feat combined with wall of salt shenanigans to quickly multiply wealth. It is not easy to out-money as caster at any level.

If you allow people to endlessly sell magically conjured substances, wealth becomes irrelevant in any case. In any game that actually treats wealth as a limited resource, caster's don't enjoy a particular advantage.


Edit: I should also point out that this entire exercise merely shows that a mage restricted to medium levels of optimization is worse than a non-mage who has no such restrictions. Optimization level is indeed more important than class; but all else equal, for a mage and mundane to be on equal footing, the mundane requires more optimization.

Sure, but that was the point made by the OP. Despite the resistance to the idea that a mage can't be beaten, an unoptimised mage isn't particularly hard to beat.

I tried to challenge the lich and sniper with Mysterio. Is that an unsuitable way of exploring this?

[prufock]

Oh in that case wizard has a spellbook to sell at a time most convenient to him. Based on that alone he has a few thousand gold edge on every other class. Again you can't win this save pazuzu.
Assuming we're using the "no one item worth more than half WBL" guideline, anyone can have an 8400 gp candle of invocation at level 7. At that level, the wizard's free spells are worth 2800 gp, so he should be able to get one by level 6 at the earliest. All this means is that the Mage Killer has to have a way of making extra money too, which really shouldn't be that hard. Wizards definitely have more ways to do it, and selling spellcasting services is an easy way, but other classes have the means as well.


How does fighting a Simulacra of a Tarrasque sound to you?
Difficult, but not impossible; it depends on the Slayer's build.


Also, would I be right in assuming that the Mage-Slayer is also bound to the same rules?
Where's the fun in that? No, the point is to give the wizard some reasonable limitations, because we're trying to avoid the variable response problem. The Slayer has no such limitations. IE we're saying "build a Slayer to defeat a predefined wizard."

Also, are we only considering level 20 here? We should be considering various points of their respective careers, shouldn't we? I tend to use level 1, 5, 10, 15, and 20 as my standards.

[aleucard]

Since it seems like there is undue focus on one specific flavor of cheese than on something class-specific...

New rule time!

1) Concerns about how to get past a character's WBL are completely irrelevant to this discussion. If someone wants to do so, there are likely other topics that focus specifically on this subject. The only consideration that this should be given is possibly mentioning the most likely method of reaching whatever recommended Wealth level for your build is, and even then it's not mandatory.

2) The main levels being considered here are 5, 10, 15, and 20. At level 1, any character that pulls ahead does so by such a small margin that it's barely noticeable at the table, with anything that IS noticeable being attributable to either the player themselves or the RNG used for that particular game.

[Gemini476]

2) The main levels being considered here are 5, 10, 15, and 20. At level 1, any character that pulls ahead does so by such a small margin that it's barely noticeable at the table, with anything that IS noticeable being attributable to either the player themselves or the RNG used for that particular game.

Pun-Pun, WhirlPounceBarbarians and Abrubt Jaunt Focused Conjurers disagree with that. And Elven Generalist Domain Wizards. You can get into some serious shenanigans at ECL 1.


I suspect that the Mage Slayer will be decent at level 5 but fall behind at level 10, but we really need some builds from both sides before we can judge that. As is we're pitting the Shroedingers Wizard (with extreme limitations and low-op) against the Shroedingers Mage Slayer (with few limitations and high-op).

[Nightraiderx]

What is amusing tho is if the mage killer were to survive the wizard's tower he might level up to lvl 21 before he reaches the wizard (probably not just would be funny)

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Yes, I screwed up with that. I also forgot bonus spells from high Int. Now I've fixed it, but am not sure if adding Polymorph is entirely fair. On one hand, it's not much of an optimization trick and is a Core spell. On the other hand, it's really nasty even without any extra effort.The way I see it, if the wizard gets a spell off in combat past level... 7, at the very least he's not going to die. But with the optimization restrictions, getting that spell off is not a given.
Keep in mind that the Wizard is immune to crits and SA, because he has all Heart of X spells on. You'd need a stealthy, non-SA build of some kind. Shadowpouncing would work, but I just added Anticipate Teleportation to his spell list. A Crinti Shadow Marauder could probably suprise and kill a lot of casters without Anticipate Teleportation or Mindsight, but by that point you're using a rather obscure class and assuming the casters don't use an extremely good spell from Spell Compendium. With AT on, the Marauder becomes nearly useless.Yeah, shadowpouncer is nice until you run into anticipate teleport. Some modification of my level 5 idea would probably be more robust and straightforward - sneak up, partial charge pounce, do a lot of non-precision damage. Most sneaky folks will have at least 1d6+ECL sneak attack damage, but the wizard can die without it. Drow Fighter and Shadow Blade both give DEX to damage that is not precision-based, and there are plenty of ways to get lots of attacks by level 10. The question, again, is whether you can actually get the jump on the wizard.

[Nightraiderx]

Mine is more focused on Cha, using law and travel devotion to get move actions and extra attack for power attacking. at lvl 20 law devotion gives +7 so it's definately not a waste. And mundane hiding should work pretty well since it has nondetection, divination on him would be more difficult for the wizard. The spell-turning 2/day is nasty if the mage thinks a no save/ no SR ability will help him get an edge. And mindblank helps with being dominated or detected by mindsight. Darkstalker for the other senses. (I think life sight may be the only thing that works, but that's on niche undead wizard builds.)

[Flickerdart]

And mindblank helps with being...detected by mindsight.
No it doesn't.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

If the mage has mindsight/touchsight/life sense/etc then your best bet is to be ethereal until you strike. But at the point that's feasible, actually getting at the wizard becomes difficult...

[dascarletm]

Does a Suel Archanamach count as not casty enough?

[Vogonjeltz]

I have a mid-op core wizard (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=403227) if that helps. 32 point buy.

The cone hat and headband of intellect both take up head slots. Which is the wizard using?

[Snowbluff]

The cone hat and headband of intellect both take up head slots. Which is the wizard using?

It's not a magic item, so it doesn't take a slot.

[Flickerdart]

The cone hat and headband of intellect both take up head slots. Which is the wizard using?
By that logic, one could never wear more than two non-magical rings, or socks and shoes at the same time.

[Juntao112]

The cone hat and headband of intellect both take up head slots. Which is the wizard using?

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/400178/82901965.jpg

#YOLO #SWAG

[Togo]

Of course, what that photograph illustrates quite nicely is exactly why the cone wouldn't land flat on the ground in any case.

[ryu]

Of course, what that photograph illustrates quite nicely is exactly why the cone wouldn't land flat on the ground in any case.

The problem with that statement is that you don't have to where the hat at an angel especially since it's just a headband under it.

[eggynack]

Of course, what that photograph illustrates quite nicely is exactly why the cone wouldn't land flat on the ground in any case.
I don't really think that photograph illustrates much at all with regards to the interaction of these two items. The headband is, y'know, a headband, rather than a full fledged hat like the one in the picture. It probably wouldn't interfere much with the cone at all. Meanwhile, even if the headband did interfere, in a manner similar to that shown in the picture, the full cone would likely land unimpeded, because it's a big ol' cone, guided by the general parameters of the wizard body under it, whose rest state is one flat on the ground. On a lark, perhaps you should try dropping a somewhat tilted cone atop a be-hatted wizard figurine, and view the lack of interaction between it and arbitrary headgear. Seems like it would be pretty minimal.

[Togo]

I have tried it. Beyond a surprisingly modest angle from the floor, the cone hits the wizard and is deflected, either knocking the wizard prone and then landing on him, preventing the cone from forming a barrier, or deflecting off the head and coming to rest on its side. A lot depends on the modelled weight of the cone. You get the best results with very flat wide cones that have a diameter greater than the height of the wearer, but even then they're pretty unreliable. For flying figures they almost never work, as the cone tumbles as it falls.

You can model this in a number of ways. The easiest is literally putting tinfoil constructions on miniatures, but that assumes very light cones. More accurate is to use a doll of some kind, but then the cone is harder to build. The best way I've found is to use something akin to tent poles, to create a 'cone' of suitable size diameter, and then adjust the weighting according to the centre of gravity of the actual construction.

The conclusion I've reached is that it's a dumb idea that wouldn't work in practice. A distressing number of cones bounce off hard surfaces, and even modest undergrowth or obstacles will totally frustrate the purpose, which is to create a seal such that no gap remains more than 1" wide. The cone fails in corridors, any situation with debris on the floor or nearby furniture, outdoors, natural cavern floor underground, on a slope, on an unpaved path or road, or pretty much anywhere except a ballroom or ice rink. And even then, you need to be still, with your head level.

[Snowbluff]

Having a brim would help it land flat, and anyone who knows anything about growing objects and thermodynamics knows the hat would expand evenly. Squared laws and physics tell us that a full sized hat made of lead would much heavier and more dense than the failed model you are using. It would squish dirt, too. After that, a wizard would just move his feat from any remaining gaps, which probably don't exist in DnD.

I think the best part is that if Hollywood makes a optimized DnD movie, all of wizards will be wearing pointy wizard hats made of metal.

[Juntao112]

They see me rolling

They be hating

[Story]

The main problem I see with the Tinfoil Hat Trick is that it doesn't work while flying.

[ryu]

That's why you make the first layer of hat out of actual tinfoil.

[Flickerdart]

The main problem I see with the Tinfoil Hat Trick is that it doesn't work while flying.
You don't need a cone while flying: since a wizard's mode of flight is probably magical, it winks out in an AMF, sending the wizard tumbling downwards...for about 10 feet, until he leaves the AMF and reasserts himself and his fly spell.

[dascarletm]

You don't need a cone while flying: since a wizard's mode of flight is probably magical, it winks out in an AMF, sending the wizard tumbling downwards...for about 10 feet, until he leaves the AMF and reasserts himself and his fly spell.

we get mundane flying, move action up to the wizard with AMF on, ready action to follow wizard downwards when he falls, or ready an action to stop flying, thus falling with yon wizard. Bonus points if you position yourself above the wizard and weigh a couple tons.

[ryu]

we get mundane flying, move action up to the wizard with AMF on, ready action to follow wizard downwards when he falls, or ready an action to stop flying, thus falling with yon wizard. Bonus points if you position yourself above the wizard and weigh a couple tons.

Depending on the length of the fall that's plenty of rounds for the wizard to just cast off a teleport effect while protected within his hat.

[Flickerdart]

we get mundane flying, move action up to the wizard with AMF on, ready action to follow wizard downwards when he falls, or ready an action to stop flying, thus falling with yon wizard. Bonus points if you position yourself above the wizard and weigh a couple tons.
"Stop flying" is not an action that can be readied (because it's not, in fact, an action). In either case, a readied action completes before the action that triggers it - if you fly down, the wizard won't fall down, because you are no longer covering him with the AMF. If you only moved down a couple of feet (so that he's still in the AMF) then he falls down past the AMF, and you already blew your readied action so you can't follow.

If the game weren't turn based, you might be able to pull this off assuming that you could perfectly match velocities (the wizard is not a brick, so he could use his robes to arrest his fall or tuck in his limbs to accelerate it - just enough to break off) but unfortunately it's impossible to do what you propose with a strict turn based system.

[dascarletm]

Depending on the length of the fall that's plenty of rounds for the wizard to just cast off a teleport effect while protected within his hat.

That reminds me I never could find the rules for falling time, I usually just calculate it myself, but I was wondering if there is an actual rule for it.


But I was responding to the wizard not having a hat while flying. If he did have said hat, it wouldn't really block the spell while in the air.


EDIT:

"Stop flying" is not an action that can be readied (because it's not, in fact, an action).

Ready an action that initiates a stall then.


In either case, a readied action completes before the action that triggers it - if you fly down, the wizard won't fall down, because you are no longer covering him with the AMF. If you only moved down a couple of feet (so that he's still in the AMF) then he falls down past the AMF, and you already blew your readied action so you can't follow.


The whole strategy is for coolness anyway. If whoever is the arbiter of this challenge won't let something like that slide, since it is a fairly simple conceptualized action, though not described in the rules, then we'd have to change the tactic.



If the game weren't turn based, you might be able to pull this off assuming that you could perfectly match velocities (the wizard is not a brick, so he could use his robes to arrest his fall or tuck in his limbs to accelerate it - just enough to break off) but unfortunately it's impossible to do what you propose with a strict turn based system.
If they are at such heights that this would matter sure, though that is an assumption. If that is the case wait until said wizard needs to be relatively close to the ground.

The better option would be to just initiate a grapple at that point, if the DM is going to argue about the inability to follow someone by RAW. I don't think I'd ever see it put in place personally, though, but for the forums just go with a grapple then.

[Flickerdart]

That reminds me I never could find the rules for falling time, I usually just calculate it myself, but I was wondering if there is an actual rule for it.
There are actually four different rules that each give a different value, depending on if you jump down, stall, fall, etc.

[Vogonjeltz]

It's not a magic item, so it doesn't take a slot.

Hrm, it has a spell on it doesn't it? What are magic items if not things with spells cast on them?

[ryu]

Hrm, it has a spell on it doesn't it? What are magic items if not things with spells cast on them?

Magic items are crafted or found under specific guidelines and definition. Putting shrink item on a glorious tall lead cone doesn't fit that sphere.

[Flickerdart]

Hrm, it has a spell on it doesn't it? What are magic items if not things with spells cast on them?
Magic items are definitely not that. Very few of them actually replicate the effects of a spell, and all need a special feat and days if not weeks of work to create.

[Aegis013]

Hrm, it has a spell on it doesn't it? What are magic items if not things with spells cast on them?

If the party Cleric casts light on his waterskin, is it a magic item?

[Vogonjeltz]

Magic items are crafted or found under specific guidelines and definition. Putting shrink item on a glorious tall lead cone doesn't fit that sphere.

Well then, I withdraw my objection to wearing a diminutive cone on ones head at the same time as the circlet.

*it is missing a spell book in the equipment line however. And no value is assigned to the steel cone. Assuming it's at least large (10x10?) I think maybe 4000lbs of smithed steel costing approximately 800gp give or take?

[Story]

Good thing we have stuff like Fabricate and Wall of Iron.

[dascarletm]

First it's lead then it's steel then it's iron. Pick a material people!

[eggynack]

First it's lead then it's steel then it's iron. Pick a material people!
All of the above, man. All of the above. Cones within cones within cones.

[ryu]

First it's lead then it's steel then it's iron. Pick a material people!

Why? We have easy access to all of them.

I'm thinking we can also fit in an adamantine layer without too much fuss.

[Flickerdart]

First it's lead then it's steel then it's iron. Pick a material people!
The hat can be paper; it doesn't actually matter, because anything solid blocks line of effect.

[ryu]

The hat can be paper; it doesn't actually matter, because anything solid blocks line of effect.

Best to have different types of hat layered since they provide a few benefits based on the situation of activation.

[Qwertystop]

The hat can be paper; it doesn't actually matter, because anything solid blocks line of effect.

Paper might break too easily in a combat situation, though. Personally I'd go for lead (for its assorted detection-spell-blocking benefits) under adamantine (for durability, since lead is soft). If adamantine's to expensive just go with steel or some other durable metal.

Might want a layer of something tough under the lead too - lead being soft, wouldn't want the hollow cone to collapse in on itself. Would it? How soft is lead?

[eggynack]

Y'know, I've gotta wonder whether there's some way to get around the oft cited uneven ground argument. It seem like it'd be possible to create something that would contour to the ground in some manner, possibly by adding a series of retractable strips to the design of the ultimate cone, such that they would vary in length somewhat depending on how distant a given patch of ground is. It seems plausible, if not with that design, then with some other design.

[Juntao112]

Might want a layer of something tough under the lead too - lead being soft, wouldn't want the hollow cone to collapse in on itself. Would it? How soft is lead?

Lead is soft. Lead alloys, however, can be significantly harder.

[Gemini476]

The hat can be paper; it doesn't actually matter, because anything solid blocks line of effect.

It doesn't even need to lie flat on the ground!

Line of Effect A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what a spell can affect. A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier. It’s like line of sight for ranged weapons, except that it’s not blocked by fog, darkness, and other factors that limit normal sight.
You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect. You must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of any spell you cast.
A burst, cone, cylinder, or emanation spell affects only an area, creatures, or objects to which it has line of effect from its origin (a spherical burst’s center point, a cone-shaped burst’s starting point, a cylinder’s circle, or an emanation’s point of origin).
An otherwise solid barrier with a hole of at least 1 square foot through it does not block a spell’s line of effect. Such an opening means that the 5-foot length of wall containing the hole is no longer considered a barrier for purposes of a spell’s line of effect.


(Emphasis mine)
This is the exception that proves the rule: an otherwise solid barrier with a hole of less than 1 square foot blocks line of effect.

You probably want it to be lead to block divination spells, I guess. I don't know what other uses there are for it.

I'm not exactly sure what angle and thickness would be the best for the cones structural integrity, but yeah. As per Draconomicon lead is 5cp/lb., so it's not exactly that expensive.
You could also have it be lead-coated steel or whatever if that's more to your fancy. I've heard of people using wicker baskets instead (with <1ft2 holes, obviously), for instance. I guess Rivirine could also work, but that's super expensive and not really something that you want to leave behind as you teleport to safety.

[Elric VIII]

Y'know, I've gotta wonder whether there's some way to get around the oft cited uneven ground argument. It seem like it'd be possible to create something that would contour to the ground in some manner, possibly by adding a series of retractable strips to the design of the ultimate cone, such that they would vary in length somewhat depending on how distant a given patch of ground is. It seems plausible, if not with that design, then with some other design.

Clearly you must wear a giant cube of jello in the "cloth-like" form. When you de-magic it, the jello slides around you while keeping its unnaturally cube-y form, blocking LoE.

[Togo]

"Stop flying" is not an action that can be readied (because it's not, in fact, an action). In either case, a readied action completes before the action that triggers it - if you fly down, the wizard won't fall down, because you are no longer covering him with the AMF..

By that logic, the tinfoil hat itself doesn't work in a turn-based system, because it wouldn't fall out of turn any more than the wizard would.

[eggynack]

By that logic, the tinfoil hat itself doesn't work in a turn-based system, because it wouldn't fall out of turn any more than the wizard would.
This doesn't necessarily operate on gravity. You start with a hat, and then there's a cone where the hat once was, surrounding your entire body, no falling necessary. Moreover, it doesn't necessarily matter that the cone doesn't activate off turn, if it doesn't activate off turn. You can just wait till it is your turn, because that's when you do most of your spell casting anyway. Sure, you miss out on immediate actions, which cuts off some fun stuff, but you didn't necessarily need them, especially with some of your opponent's best potential actions trapped behind an AMF. Finally, I'm not really sure when objects, that don't have their movement entirely defined by your existence, fall, as the cone might not share your initiative count. It could just fall when there's something to cause the falling.

[dascarletm]

This doesn't necessarily operate on gravity. You start with a hat, and then there's a cone where the hat once was, surrounding your entire body, no falling necessary. Moreover, it doesn't necessarily matter that the cone doesn't activate off turn, if it doesn't activate off turn. You can just wait till it is your turn, because that's when you do most of your spell casting anyway. Sure, you miss out on immediate actions, which cuts off some fun stuff, but you didn't necessarily need them, especially with some of your opponent's best potential actions trapped behind an AMF. Finally, I'm not really sure when objects, that don't have their movement entirely defined by your existence, fall, as the cone might not share your initiative count. It could just fall when there's something to cause the falling.

I don't know if this is a rule or something I've just seen but usually unattended objects "go" on initiative count 0, or the end of the round.


Although not having the hat fall leaves the AMF wielder able to enter yon mage's space, or initiate bull-rushes/grapples, etc.

[Flickerdart]

By that logic, the tinfoil hat itself doesn't work in a turn-based system, because it wouldn't fall out of turn any more than the wizard would.
The hat starts and ends its transformation in the same square.

[Chambers]

10 ranks in Spellcraft, Great Fortitude, Lightning Reflexes, Combat Casting and a Martial Weapon Proficiency are a good place to start. I'm really funny, I know. ;)

[Vaz]

Mage Killer's kinda suck, and are still casters anyway. Burn 4 feats to get Improved Summoning, 4 Spell Focuses, and up to +5 on Fort/Ref Saves. Compare that to any sort of optimized Wizard/Sorcerer and it's dead meat, the only way it survives is due to it's ability to cast spells as well, not due to class features.

[aleucard]

I think I have a good idea of how to word this properly so that as little issue is brought up. All that anyone seems to be willing or even able to do is talk about how awesome a Primary Caster is without doing much of anything on the topic of what is the best route a non-Primary Caster can take to counter one (even at the cost of being able to counter other threats).

NEW RULE TIME!!!

1. The Caster in question is exclusively an NPC, and one that's designed to be fought in a campaign at that. If the wizard in question is to be a one-and-done encounter as normal, or someone that's more long-term (possibly the final boss of the entire game), will be left up to the builder in question. If they are designing for specific caster builds in mind, they have to provide the build in question. Bear in mind that anything even approaching TO is verboten, which means that Dark Chaos Shuffle and its contemporaries are completely off the table.

2. If the build that is being asked for is being designed for use in a full party rather than its lonesome, then this fact needs to be advertised. While the main focus of this topic is on ways to make a non-Primary able to have at least a plausible chance of victory against a competent-but-standard Primary, making it so that it works well in groups, or possibly needs to work in groups, is also valid. Few people play solo for any significant amount of time, after all.

3. This is NOT the topic to discuss how obnoxiously overpowered the average Primary Caster is. We all know full well just how screwed any non-Primary is against one that's being played by someone who knows what the Hell they're doing. This is to discuss the best strategies available to mitigate that (or at least, mitigating the bog standard examples), not how useless it is to even try. If you want that, make another thread. I'm sure there hasn't been too many about how much more powerful casting is than non-casting yet. Right?

EDIT: On Rule #1, just so there isn't any contention whatsoever, this is a bog-standard campaign. Tippyverse is to be considered non-existent for this. Make the same assumptions that you would for someone asking for build advice in any other kind of thread. If you even think that a DM would be iffy about something, either mark it as such or remove it entirely.

[eggynack]

It just seems kinda pointless and empty, is the problem. I mean, at some point, this becomes less a question of how to build a melee guy that can kill casters, and more a question of how much you have to scale down casters before said mage killer can take them down. Besides, we're still relying on some pretty subjective definitions. You say you want an NPC wizard, without TO, at standard levels of competence and power, but if you ask Tippy to hand you one of those, they'll crush a normal "mage killer" before he can even roll a single die.

On a deeper level, the problem is that there's not really an answer to this question you're asking. Without an actual, flesh and blood, character sheet having wizard, we're looking at what is effectively schrodinger's wizard. It's an issue that's pretty easy to illustrate. We send out our mage killer, on the hunt for his mage, except oh no, he's invisible. Now our fighter is doomed, except, huzzah, we've handed him an item to counter that ability.

Unfortunately though, now, instead of being invisible, our wizard is protected by abrupt jaunt, or friendly fire, or whatever. How will the fighter contend with that? Even in the limited scope provided by a PO caster, there's still a roughly infinite quantity of things that this caster could be doing. It is inevitable, therefore, that any attention is necessarily focused on the wizard. You think that you can just keep rewording and reruling until things miraculously fall into place, but it's not really going to work.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

It just seems kinda pointless and empty, is the problem. I mean, at some point, this becomes less a question of how to build a melee guy that can kill casters, and more a question of how much you have to scale down casters before said mage killer can take them down. Besides, we're still relying on some pretty subjective definitions. You say you want an NPC wizard, without TO, at standard levels of competence and power, but if you ask Tippy to hand you one of those, they'll crush a normal "mage killer" before he can even roll a single die.

On a deeper level, the problem is that there's not really an answer to this question you're asking. Without an actual, flesh and blood, character sheet having wizard, we're looking at what is effectively schrodinger's wizard. It's an issue that's pretty easy to illustrate. We send out our mage killer, on the hunt for his mage, except oh no, he's invisible. Now our fighter is doomed, except, huzzah, we've handed him an item to counter that ability.

Unfortunately though, now, instead of being invisible, our wizard is protected by abrupt jaunt, or friendly fire, or whatever. How will the fighter contend with that? Even in the limited scope provided by a PO caster, there's still a roughly infinite quantity of things that this caster could be doing. It is inevitable, therefore, that any attention is necessarily focused on the wizard. You think that you can just keep rewording and reruling until things miraculously fall into place, but it's not really going to work.As long as the mid-op wizard doesn't have a way to beat darkstalker, and the mage killer can at least locate the wizard, the wizard will die due to a lack of optimization. Juntao's core wizard has a good chance of just avoiding any mundane killer with COP spam, but can't necessarily deal with him for good.

[eggynack]

As long as the mid-op wizard doesn't have a way to beat darkstalker, and the mage killer can at least locate the wizard, the wizard will die due to a lack of optimization. Juntao's core wizard has a good chance of just avoiding any mundane killer with COP spam, but can't necessarily deal with him for good.
That's the problem then, I think. The wizard will always die due to a lack of optimization, rather than to any particular capability of the mage killer. That's just the way of things. Crazy darkstalker guy is probably better off than most builds in this regard, however. You've just got to make pretty sure that the first round is also the last, because that kind of trick seems unlikely to work twice.

[ryu]

That's the problem then, I think. The wizard will always die due to a lack of optimization, rather than to any particular capability of the mage killer. That's just the way of things. Crazy darkstalker guy is probably better off than most builds in this regard, however. You've just got to make pretty sure that the first round is also the last, because that kind of trick seems unlikely to work twice.

Not to mention there are so many things that just nope the hell out of that strat the rules would have to disallow.

[aleucard]

A few responses.

Eggy, this is not dealing with Schrodinger's Wizard because you provide the type of Primary Caster that your build is designed to be at least functional against. If you're incapable of designing a Mage-Killer that can deal with the average person's Caster, then we'll be the judge of that by what you provide as someone who said Mage-Killer has a LD50 or better against.

Eggy and SoberDay, it seems like the only thing that any non-Primary will be able to do against a Primary is Darkstalker. Is everything else so completely useless? That would explain why it seems like people such as yourself are offended by this topic's existence, from the look at some of your replies.

[ryu]

A few responses.

Eggy, this is not dealing with Schrodinger's Wizard because you provide the type of Primary Caster that your build is designed to be at least functional against. If you're incapable of designing a Mage-Killer that can deal with the average person's Caster, then we'll be the judge of that by what you provide as someone who said Mage-Killer has a LD50 or better against.

Eggy and SoberDay, it seems like the only thing that any non-Primary will be able to do against a Primary is Darkstalker. Is everything else so completely useless? That would explain why it seems like people such as yourself are offended by this topic's existence, from the look at some of your replies.

Darkstalker is the only purely mundane thing that can bring some sort of relevance in this contest as it might get you a surprise round against a wizard who doesn't know what he's doing. Most other mundane tactics have no relevance as it's assumed you can kill off a wizard you can get a proper full attack on with no other mitigating defenses like miss chance or incorporeal status. This is because they don't have much HP to begin with.

Every magic item a mundane can buy has easy counters either in magic item form the wizard can get cheaper by crafting or cheaper versions of magic items that require magical activation rather than activation commands. This is on top of the fact that several magic items are necessary to even function remotely against a spellcaster. Can't fly? Wizard flies and begins tossing rolled up bits of newspaper and laughing at you. Can't see invisible stuff? Wizard is invisible. Good luck with that. Can't see through illusions in general? Oh you just opened yourself to a whole pile of pain inducing methods. Aren't immune to mind effecting stuff? Hello new wizard minion. Is my point clear yet?

[eggynack]

Eggy and SoberDay, it seems like the only thing that any non-Primary will be able to do against a Primary is Darkstalker. Is everything else so completely useless? That would explain why it seems like people such as yourself are offended by this topic's existence, from the look at some of your replies.
It's not far from inaccurate. Melee folk essentially have one shot, and it's not the worst one, at victory. A pouncebarian, charging in at a conveniently placed wizard, is going to murder him if he doesn't have his defenses up. The mage slayer line is decent, but it doesn't go far enough. You can play a ridiculous game of measures and countermeasures, building subtle defenses, trying to overpower his, but you'll usually fail. It's a game that wizards are really good at.

So, you need a way to get that one shot, despite the fact that wizards (and most casters, actually), can out-initiative just about anyone, and darkstalker is the closest thing to pulling that off. It's one of the only things in the entire game that works better mundane than magic. But, as Ryu notes, it's not infallible. Something as simple as long duration miss chance can make that one attack fail a reasonable amount of the time, there are some vision modes that can pierce it, and a well built wizard is as paranoid as all get out. This is probably the closest there is, apart from some ridiculous build pulling in early access epic feats, and I don't think it does it. You might have better luck against a non-wizard, but the same basic issues apply. The opponent is just generally doing better things than you are.

[aleucard]

So the only thing that a non-Primary can do to be more relevant than a summon against a Primary caster (or more specifically, Wizard) is get Darkstalker, try his best to cover what detection methods aren't by that, and boost BAB/Damage as high as possible? Sounds like pure **** to me, but if that's the word of the experts, alright.

So this entire topic is completely useless, then. Is that the general consensus?

[Flickerdart]

Sounds like pure **** to me
There has been more than one arena match between challengers who believed the same thing. The results were generally not in the mundane's favour (barring one instance where a fighter was able to win a Wizard 13 vs Fighter 20 fight due to the wizard getting sloppy). The game is just not very well balanced, and WotC has put in a lot of effort over the years to hide that fact through fluff that straight-up lies about the mechanical abilities of characters.

[eggynack]

So the only thing that a non-Primary can do to be more relevant than a summon against a Primary caster (or more specifically, Wizard) is get Darkstalker, try his best to cover what detection methods aren't by that, and boost BAB/Damage as high as possible? Sounds like pure **** to me, but if that's the word of the experts, alright.
Well, you can always go really high op, do things Tippy style with infinite deflection and a selective AMF, but apart from that, there's not all that much. I wouldn't necessarily stick non-primaries at summon usefulness, though they may occasionally be at optimized summon usefulness, but they're not going to do great. One big issue here is that wizard optimization isn't just a bunch of fixed points on a line, and you can't just point to one and say, "I want that power level." It's an incredibly intricate curve, featuring potential boosts in power level with every single spell selection. You put together a fancy ranged build, and then the wizard tweaks one of his spells to a wind wall or friendly fire, and that's about it for the build, especially in the latter case.


So this entire topic is completely useless, then. Is that the general consensus?
Well, I do always have fun debating random caster stuff, and I think that my idea of a cone hat that can contour to uneven ground better is a good one (I kinda like that jello idea, though maybe using putty instead), but yeah, Glyphstone was probably correct two pages in.

[Juntao112]

As long as the mid-op wizard doesn't have a way to beat darkstalker, and the mage killer can at least locate the wizard, the wizard will die due to a lack of optimization. Juntao's core wizard has a good chance of just avoiding any mundane killer with COP spam, but can't necessarily deal with him for good.

Eh, drop a book full of explosive runes on him.

[SinsI]

Where is the Mage? In his castle, protected by layers upon layers of traps and defenses? Sleeping in his base camp (probably using Rope Trick) ? Exploring the dungeon that has the Mage Killer?

I'd say Rogue/Sneak attack Fighter of equal level, with appropriate equipment to protect from detection spells and to ignore miss chances/DR/etc., can kill a Mage.

[Juntao112]

Method of attack?

[Sewercop]

Linked perception mostly nullify the darkstalkers. I dont call that high op, I call that not wanting to be stalked down and stabbed.

[lhilas]

Just... WOW... You guys seriously appreciate spell casters WAY too much, yes - they are tier 1 and all but still.
My build is monk 10/ tattooed monk 10, with tattoes that grant him spell resistance 35, higher saves, smite abilities and the ability to turn etherel once a day.
The character has TONS of wis and str ,and a feat from the complete warrior (can't remember his name right now) who changes his stun fist into a paralyzing fist (1d4+1 minutes), the character has magic items improving her saves, goggles of true seeing, and carpet of flying.
This character can counter ALMOST all of the caster's attack AND will win at the first round in which the caster will be hit (though to parlyzation with DC ~26), besides that he can also deal around ~90 damage in a round thanks to his smitng abilities. This character, is a TRUE mage killer.

[HammeredWharf]

Darkstalker is far from reliable at killing Wizards. If the Wizard in question is of high enough level, his resting place is probably damn dangerous or simply out of a mundane's reach. So, the mage killer would have to ambush the Wizard during daytime, while he's out adventuring. Now, if we make a - rather big, by the way - assumption that the Wizard NPC adventures solo and you don't have to deal with a Druid with obnoxiously high Spot checks, a Wizard who solos probably has a way of dealing with ambushes, be it Mindsight or Astral Projection or something else.

Then we run into the problem of other classes. Yes, Wizards suck at Spot/Listen checks. The same can't be said about Druids, some Psions and many other casters. Every primary caster has a weakness, but those weaknesses are different and you can't exploit all of them on a mundane build, because mundane builds suck at adaptability. So far, we've been talking about Wizards, but TBH I think a Druid would be harder to kill at most levels. They're more well-rounded.

In the end, you end up making so many assumptions the mage slayer build wouldn't work in a real game, unless your mission is ambushing conveniently-placed Wizards who don't have a way of dealing with ambushes despite having >20 int.

[eggynack]

Just... WOW... You guys seriously appreciate spell casters WAY too much, yes - they are tier 1 and all but still.
My build is monk 10/ tattooed monk 10, with tattoes that grant him spell resistance 35, higher saves, smite abilities and the ability to turn etherel once a day.
The character has TONS of wis and str ,and a feat from the complete warrior (can't remember his name right now) who changes his stun fist into a paralyzing fist (1d4+1 minutes), the character has magic items improving her saves, goggles of true seeing, and carpet of flying.
This character can counter ALMOST all of the caster's attack AND will win at the first round in which the caster will be hit (though to parlyzation with DC ~26), besides that he can also deal around ~90 damage in a round thanks to his smitng abilities. This character, is a TRUE mage killer.
That stuff is all pretty highly mediocre at dealing with a full caster. SR and high saves fail against a really high quantity of caster stuff, ranging from summons, to fogs of various kinds, to walls, to orbs. These things are billed as caster destroyers, but they're not. You can win if you can hit the caster, and do so successfully, but that's always the case, and it's pretty hard to do.

Casters have contingencies, and they have distance, and they have offense that can kill you just as easily, and from a distance. They can do everything you've listed, at least the stuff that's relevant to fighting a monk, and they can do so far better. Your character might potentially beat a crappy wizard, but against one that's well constructed, it doesn't have even the semblance of a chance. This monk is a true mage killer, in the sense that mage killers tend to be quite bad at their job.

[lhilas]

Level 10 monk can teleport once a day, take in combination of a feat from the complete warrior called sun school he can teleport than paralyze the caster in the same round, so , just to be clear - unless the casters with s initiative AND kills him at round 1, the monk wins...

[aleucard]

There has been more than one arena match between challengers who believed the same thing. The results were generally not in the mundane's favour (barring one instance where a fighter was able to win a Wizard 13 vs Fighter 20 fight due to the wizard getting sloppy). The game is just not very well balanced, and WotC has put in a lot of effort over the years to hide that fact through fluff that straight-up lies about the mechanical abilities of characters.

I was thinking that it's bull@#$% less in the 'That's a completely incorrect statement' sense and more in the 'WOTC should be beaten bloody with a rubber tube collectively and individually for skull@#$^ing the balance this badly' sense. Alright, so picking a non-Primary in a party with a good player who's running a Primary means that you're mostly doing it for fluffiness. Alright, I can live with that, albeit grudgingly. A lot of the most fun that is to be had is when choices are made more for flavor than raw crunch. I'd just like it if the role of Primary Caster wasn't so absurdly beyond literally everything else if played decently. Preferably by bringing the rest of the playstyles up to speed, but still.

EDIT: To be fair, there's another reason off the top of my head. If your toon is focusing on a specific role (scout, party face, DPR, etc.), then the Party Primary can put more resources towards doing other interesting things, or boost you so that you can do the job better than he could himself. Not that common of a situation to be honest, but dividing up the party roles is part of the reason parties work in the first place.

[Sewercop]

Level 10 monk can teleport once a day, take in combination of a feat from the complete warrior called sun school he can teleport than paralyze the caster in the same round, so , just to be clear - unless the casters with s initiative AND kills him at round 1, the monk wins...


The caster will win initiative and kill him in round one.
It stands no chance at all winning against a lvl 20 wizard.

[eggynack]

Level 10 monk can teleport once a day, take in combination of a feat from the complete warrior called sun school he can teleport than paralyze the caster in the same round, so , just to be clear - unless the casters with s initiative AND kills him at round 1, the monk wins...
It's quite likely that he will win initiative, given easier than normal access to improved initiative, usually high dexterity, nerveskitter, and sometimes a hummingbird familiar. I'm also not exactly sure how you're teleporting here. Sun school doesn't grant teleportation. It just lets you attack after you've already teleported. Additionally, you're still only killing if you can hit, which is far from a sure thing given miss chances of various kinds, as your listed method of breaking illusions isn't really online yet. There are really a lot of issues here, and we haven't even started. I mean, we're still assuming that you're somehow ambushing this wizard out in the open somehow. It seems vaguely unlikely.

[HammeredWharf]

Level 10 monk can teleport once a day, take in combination of a feat from the complete warrior called sun school he can teleport than paralyze the caster in the same round, so , just to be clear - unless the casters with s initiative AND kills him at round 1, the monk wins...

This is a lvl 20 build. A lvl 20 Wizard has 9th level spells, meaning he has access to Foresight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/foresight.htm). He's also immune to critical hits (via Heart of X spells), so he's immune to Stunning Fist. The former is quite likely, but the latter is almost surely true, if we're talking about a Wizard who's even remotely optimized.

Edit:


To be fair, there's another reason off the top of my head. If your toon is focusing on a specific role (scout, party face, DPR, etc.), then the Party Primary can put more resources towards doing other interesting things, or boost you so that you can do the job better than he could himself. Not that common of a situation to be honest, but dividing up the party roles is part of the reason parties work in the first place.

No, it's a very common situation. Generally, buffing the melee guys and letting them do the killing is better than doing the killing yourself, at least if you're a Wizard. However, well-built Druids and Clerics outshine even ToB classes easily without some houserules.

[ryu]

Level 10 monk can teleport once a day, take in combination of a feat from the complete warrior called sun school he can teleport than paralyze the caster in the same round, so , just to be clear - unless the casters with s initiative AND kills him at round 1, the monk wins...

Casters and especially wizards are better at initiative winning than anyone else. Care to see a list of basic init optimization tactics?

That's assuming the wizard even lets initiative matter. Have you even read the spells foresight or any of the celerity line?

Assuming ways around that you still assume the wizard has to be on the same plane as you in order to kill you off. Have you read astral projection?

[Juntao112]

Just... WOW... You guys seriously appreciate spell casters WAY too much, yes - they are tier 1 and all but still.
My build is monk 10/ tattooed monk 10, with tattoes that grant him spell resistance 35, higher saves, smite abilities and the ability to turn etherel once a day.
The character has TONS of wis and str ,and a feat from the complete warrior (can't remember his name right now) who changes his stun fist into a paralyzing fist (1d4+1 minutes), the character has magic items improving her saves, goggles of true seeing, and carpet of flying.
This character can counter ALMOST all of the caster's attack AND will win at the first round in which the caster will be hit (though to parlyzation with DC ~26), besides that he can also deal around ~90 damage in a round thanks to his smitng abilities. This character, is a TRUE mage killer.

Would you kindly kill this (http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=22841) mage?

[Aquillion]

Level 10 monk can teleport once a day, take in combination of a feat from the complete warrior called sun school he can teleport than paralyze the caster in the same round, so , just to be clear - unless the casters with s initiative AND kills him at round 1, the monk wins...But... the caster is going to win initiative, since you specifically said you were focused on Str and Wis, while any decent caster is going to prioritize Dex after Int (and will almost certainly have Improved Initiative.) That's not even particularly optimal, that's just a generic 20-level wizard a totally new player could throw together on their first try, and they're still very likely to go first.

Going for slightly more optimization (but still just obvious stuff from the core book), they're likely to have at least a contingency and probably a few buffs up -- flying (your monk does have a way of flying, right?), foresight, etc are all popular at that level. Also some quickened spells and / or a rod of quickening.

The really optimized ones will have a Hummingbird Familiar and Nerveskitter on top of that, and possibly Craft Contingent Spell so you have to worry about multiple layers of contingency; and / or Greater Celerity, which with Foresight means that it is flatly not possible for a non-caster to ever act before them. Note that I'm not choosing anything specifically to counter your build -- this is just basic wizard stuff. Anticipate Teleportation is slightly geared towards you, but as a hour / level level four spell that shuts down a major threat, it's something a lot of wizards will have up, and it will completely screw you over if you rely on your Abundant Step to get close to them.

If the wizard does go first, or if their contingency allows them to survive (and it will, even if you paralyze them) you're doomed. You're trying to fight a Level 20 wizard. They have Time Stop, Shapechange, Gate, Greater Teleport... if they wanted, they could literally transport themselves to the other side of the universe, then send multiple teleporting Gated creatures twice your level to kill you. Ones they chose specifically based on what they think your weaknesses are. That's not an exaggeration or using obscure sourcebooks, that's just from the core book. (They probably won't actually use Gate, because they probably won't think you're worth the XP cost, but the option is there, and honestly you're not going to get past Time Stop + Shapechange + a few other buffs. Or they could Plane Shift to another dimension, then use Astral Projection to kill you from complete safety.)


With that said, there is one important thing worth pointing out -- most NPC wizards will not be like this, because most good DMs are not focused on crushing the hopes and dreams of their players. "I teleport next to the wizard and kick them in the head!" is a totally valid strategy in that situation (although I would argue that if you're talking "practical" optimization in that sense, your monk's heavy focus on personal defenses is a waste, because in general you are unlikely to be the one getting targeted anyway -- your own squishier party members dying is still generally a loss, which is one of the major problems with Monks. And teleporting only once per day is not a very practical strategy. And really, if we're going to look at it from that angle, you can kill a wizard no matter what because your DM is probably going to scale them to the optimization / strategic level that makes them beatable for your group. Also also, perhaps most importantly of all, many of the casters a PC is likely to fight are in fact not squishy wizards, but powerful dragons, immortal liches, or other such creatures; simply relying on alpha-striking them with a single physical attack, especially one that relies on them being vulnerable to paralyzation, is not very viable as an anti-caster strategy.)

The real answer is that a wizard's power comes from their versatility; therefore, to beat them, you need similar versatility. Additionally, and perhaps more importantly, wizards can adjust their spells each day based on what they expect, and can put up buffs for the same; therefore, you need to hit them in an unexpected way. "Get adjacent to them and hit them hard or with a common status problem" is not a good strategy because it is one of the most common ways to be attacked -- any half-decent wizard is going to have some sort of answer to that prepared. You need to think a few steps ahead of them, guess what their contingency most likely does, figure out which buffs they're going to have up, then adjust your strategy to that. Astral Projection, say, which I mentioned above and which other people have brought up, does have a weakness that could let you kill a wizard instantly if they're using it -- but you would need to anticipate them using it and set things up in advance, since you need someone in the Astral Plane capable of cutting their cord (and few things can do that.)

Beating a wizard is about outwitting them. You cannot beat them just by throwing stats or builds at them unless you're, basically, another wizard. They can lose, but only if you figure out all the important tricks they're bringing to the table, anticipate which ones they're going to use, and manage to put together counters to them -- which gets progressively harder as they go up in level, allowing them to prepare more and better tricks.

(People talk about Schrödinger's Wizard, which is a valid complaint, but it's important to understand that part of the reason it feels like that is because, if you are a non-caster, your options are relatively limited, and you're generally forced to select one build permanently. A wizard, who can functionally change their entire build every day, is going to have an easier time anticipating you than you are of anticipating them, and is going to be better at acting on that anticipation -- and, if that isn't enough, wizards have multiple abilities that let them opt-out of a fight they can't win, which means they can come back the next day with a totally new array customized to whatever you had before. Your monk can't rearrange his options nearly so thoroughly.)

Anyway, that's why beating a wizard is generally not so much a build as it is a state of mind. What you're going to want is lots of UMD (basically, fake-caster options), Diplomacy, and lots and lots of cash you're willing to burn; but your exact build beyond that is relatively irrelevant. You're going to win or lose before Initiative is even rolled, based entirely on how good your plan is and how it intersects with the wizard's preexisting choices.

(Diplomacy is the real answer, of course; Diplomacy is one of the few things in the game that can beat magic, if only because it lets you recruit people who have magic... and, because it's meant to be used on NPCs, there is actually no defense against it. Mind Blank protects you from magic, but does not protect you from talking, so a diplomancer given a free hand for long enough can raise an army of more and better high-level Fanatical wizards than your target.)

[Juntao112]

Hell, Foresight + Celerity alone means the opponent never goes first unless they have something similar up their sleeve.

[eggynack]

Incidentally, this plan also fails against the arbitrary druid in my head, because he's a dragonborn whatever, with mind selected as his trait of choice. Thus, he is immune to paralysis. This fact amuses me far more than it should. I mean, there's a lot of other reasons the plan wouldn't work, at least partially because I've spent the last... reasonably large quantity of time researching aberration forms, and I'm just raring to make use of all of them, cause they're cool.

I take back whatever rating I've given aberration wild shape in the past, incidentally. It's definitely the best form adding feat, even without assume supernatural ability. Man, druids are sweet at this kinda thing. I can just go a really long way before doing anything that seems like it would be out of place on some arbitrary druid. It all just feels so much more subtle when the game breaks, even if druids are horribly unsubtle in general.

[Gemini476]

A thing about mage-killers is that unless they're only planning on killing one wizard ever they actually need to be able to handle something akin to the Schroedinger's Wizard. The mage today might not have Anticipate Teleportation, but the one tomorrow might - and if he's a powerful lich, how do you deal with his immunities then?
You can't just build a build to counter a specific wizard, but need to make sure that you have ways to defeat every possible wizard. Or even just most of them. Which is really hard to do. Harder than it is to build a Wizard to counter most mundanes, for instance.

That is, unless you're planning on the Magnificent Magesassin retiring while he's in the black.

This goes for optimisation in general, really - it's even PO. If you make a Fighter that can defeat equal-CR opponents within a single round, but is completely thwarted by immunity to non-lethal and natural weapons? That's not really a good Fighter.

Really, if you want to build a Mage-Slayer then it's less a question of building one and building an entire party of them, each of which makes up for the weaknesses of another.
Just so that you aren't completely useless when faced by a Lich with Forcecage.
Most of that party is going to be casters, though.

[Gemini476]

(Diplomacy is the real answer, of course; Diplomacy is one of the few things in the game that can beat magic, if only because it lets you recruit people who have magic... and, because it's meant to be used on NPCs, there is actually no defense against it. Mind Blank protects you from magic, but does not protect you from talking, so a diplomancer given a free hand for long enough can raise an army of more and better high-level Fanatical wizards than your target.)
Mind Blank stops you from being turned fanatical, actually. It's a mind-affecting effect.
A Warlock can still use the Power of Friendship on you if they can get off a full-round action, though. The only way to avoid that is to not understand their language. Or be a PC, since they're immune to Diplomacy.


Luckily diplomacy isn't exactly mind-control at that level, but being turned Friendly will probably mean that you lose the battle.

[ben-zayb]

Incidentally, this plan also fails against the arbitrary druid in my head, because he's a dragonborn whatever, with mind selected as his trait of choice. Thus, he is immune to paralysis. This fact amuses me far more than it should. I mean, there's a lot of other reasons the plan wouldn't work, at least partially because I've spent the last... reasonably large quantity of time researching aberration forms, and I'm just raring to make use of all of them, cause they're cool.

I take back whatever rating I've given aberration wild shape in the past, incidentally. It's definitely the best form adding feat, even without assume supernatural ability. Man, druids are sweet at this kinda thing. I can just go a really long way before doing anything that seems like it would be out of place on some arbitrary druid. It all just feels so much more subtle when the game breaks, even if druids are horribly unsubtle in general.It's a tall order, but i think the playground will appreciate some Druid handbook/FAQ for starting players who are initially underwhelmed with druid casting and wild shape options.

[Vaz]

There has been more than one arena match between challengers who believed the same thing. The results were generally not in the mundane's favour (barring one instance where a fighter was able to win a Wizard 13 vs Fighter 20 fight due to the wizard getting sloppy). The game is just not very well balanced, and WotC has put in a lot of effort over the years to hide that fact through fluff that straight-up lies about the mechanical abilities of characters.

I'm intrigued. Is there a link to the arena, please? Thanks in advance.

[eggynack]

It's a tall order, but i think the playground will appreciate some Druid handbook/FAQ for starting players who are initially underwhelmed with druid casting and wild shape options.
It's a vaguely possible thing, at some point, but I'm not even sure what that would entail, as opposed to a normal druid handbook. I mean, I have a brief FAQ of some kind, but it's mostly devoted to questions that are frequently asked because they lack unambiguous answers.

[Flickerdart]

I'm intrigued. Is there a link to the arena, please? Thanks in advance.
This was two board rearrangements ago, so where the actual thread in question is, is anyone's guess.

[Juntao112]

I have a guess. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?130020-Fighter-vs-Wizard-Pharaoh-vs-Superglucose)

[Aquillion]

The game is just not very well balanced, and WotC has put in a lot of effort over the years to hide that fact through fluff that straight-up lies about the mechanical abilities of characters.Well, yes and no.

The game isn't well balanced, but the fact that wizards beat fighters in arena fights isn't really part of that -- D&D isn't a PvP game, so the classes aren't balanced for PvP. (They are also poorly balanced in adventuring terms, but that's another issue and the imbalance isn't quite as extreme as we see in arenas -- a wizard can still find a use for a well-built fighter companion, definitely.)

Frankly wizards should beat fighters in arena fights, simply because wizards are clearly at an advantage in a situation where they (1) anticipate one-on-one combat against a single opponent (which dramatically restricts the range of spells they're going to need, telling them what to prepare and so forth) and (2) can burn all their best spells because this is the only encounter of the day. So even though wizards are clearly a T1 class and are better overall, I don't think arena fights are really the best way to show it.

Likewise, when someone says they want to build a mage killer, you have to stop and think about what they're actually asking -- do they want someone to play in arena fights, in one-on-one duels against wizards? Or do they want a character meant to be played in a party against enemy NPC casters? The requirements for each are very different.

[Story]

I'd argue that they are more imbalanced in normal adventuring than arena fights, not less.

Arena fights reduce the effect of versatility because you're going up against one opponent rather than 4 different opponents every day. They also don't consider a lot of the strategic, noncombat, and utility options that casters get.

[eggynack]

I'd argue that they are more imbalanced in normal adventuring than arena fights, not less.

Arena fights reduce the effect of versatility because you're going up against one opponent rather than 4 different opponents every day. They also don't consider a lot of the strategic, noncombat, and utility options that casters get.
I agree. Melee classes were practically designed from the ground up to be good in arena combat, preferably in close range, and with few to no terrain elements. It's fundamentally the area of their expertise, and moving outside of it is a path to uselessness. It's like, right now we're comparing chain tripping to solid fog, which is at least somewhat comparable, but the suggestion here is essentially that we compare chain tripping to silent image, and I don't know how the fighter can even function in that context.

[Vaz]

Certain casters are pretty badly gimped in arena fights, Dread Necro's without access to bodies, malconvokers without time to get up summoning circles, healers without access to Gate, enchanters without access to dispelling Mind Blank.

Full list casters like Psions, Sorcerors, Wizards, shair etc aren't especially hindered.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Eggy and SoberDay, it seems like the only thing that any non-Primary will be able to do against a Primary is Darkstalker. Is everything else so completely useless? That would explain why it seems like people such as yourself are offended by this topic's existence, from the look at some of your replies.I'm not offended as much as I am fatalistic. The way the game works, mundanes need to optimize more than spellcasters to compete. So to make this challenge work, you need to make sure the mage optimizes less than the killer. If you limit the opposition to really low-op (DMG-listed NPCs, played like a game designer would play them) pretty much any reasonble mid-op build can kill them, stealth or no.
Eh, drop a book full of explosive runes on him.Drop that book... where? Granted once you COP spam you have a better chance at locating the slayer than he does you... but unless the wizard has the resources to pinpoint a square (scrying won't cut it unless the mage killer hangs out in very distinct areas all the time) I still see it as a stalemate where both sides avoid each other.
Linked perception mostly nullify the darkstalkers. I dont call that high op, I call that not wanting to be stalked down and stabbed.I think you're talking about the PHBII Druid spell, which gives a decent bump... for minutes/level. Also, Hide can be pumped much more easily than Spot.
Darkstalker is far from reliable at killing Wizards. If the Wizard in question is of high enough level, his resting place is probably damn dangerous or simply out of a mundane's reach. So, the mage killer would have to ambush the Wizard during daytime, while he's out adventuring. Now, if we make a - rather big, by the way - assumption that the Wizard NPC adventures solo and you don't have to deal with a Druid with obnoxiously high Spot checks, a Wizard who solos probably has a way of dealing with ambushes, be it Mindsight or Astral Projection or something else.1. This is why I focused on lower levels, and mages without special detection. This is also why I like to put special detection on my mages.
2. The Druid with spot is going to need to bring more to the table. Again, it's a lot easier to pump hide than spot.
Then we run into the problem of other classes. Yes, Wizards suck at Spot/Listen checks. The same can't be said about Druids, some Psions and many other casters. Every primary caster has a weakness, but those weaknesses are different and you can't exploit all of them on a mundane build, because mundane builds suck at adaptability. So far, we've been talking about Wizards, but TBH I think a Druid would be harder to kill at most levels. They're more well-rounded.Except, again, a ridiculous hide beats a decent spot. You can make stealth characters who can only be detected by the specific counter magics.
In the end, you end up making so many assumptions the mage slayer build wouldn't work in a real game, unless your mission is ambushing conveniently-placed Wizards who don't have a way of dealing with ambushes despite having >20 int.My assumption is a stealth-based character who ambushes enemies in general. Then he either happens upon a lower-op wizard or is contracted to go kill him. Are paranoid wizards never actually going to be out in the open without some way to detect an ambush? Sure. Are mid-op or lower wizards going to be out in the open and vulnerable to a specialized stealth character's ambush? Sure.

[Juntao112]

Drop that book... where? Granted once you COP spam you have a better chance at locating the slayer than he does you... but unless the wizard has the resources to pinpoint a square (scrying won't cut it unless the mage killer hangs out in very distinct areas all the time) I still see it as a stalemate where both sides avoid each other.
Well, if he attacks me, I figure I can throw enough Black Tentacles, Web, Solid Fog, etc, his way to immobilize him before saturation bombing.

If I'm on the offensive, and can CoP the Mage Slayer to a specific location, I might be able to use Magic Jar to pick out the higher-level lifeforms and make an educated guess as to which one is the Mage Slayer. After all, in a world where the common man is level 2, a lifeform of over 6 HD is very distinctive.

[eggynack]

I'm not offended as much as I am fatalistic. The way the game works, mundanes need to optimize more than spellcasters to compete. So to make this challenge work, you need to make sure the mage optimizes less than the killer. If you limit the opposition to really low-op (DMG-listed NPCs, played like a game designer would play them) pretty much any reasonble mid-op build can kill them, stealth or no.Drop that book... where? Granted once you COP spam you have a better chance at locating the slayer than he does you... but unless the wizard has the resources to pinpoint a square (scrying won't cut it unless the mage killer hangs out in very distinct areas all the time) I still see it as a stalemate where both sides avoid each other.I think you're talking about the PHBII Druid spell, which gives a decent bump... for minutes/level. Also, Hide can be pumped much more easily than Spot.1. This is why I focused on lower levels, and mages without special detection. This is also why I like to put special detection on my mages.
2. The Druid with spot is going to need to bring more to the table. Again, it's a lot easier to pump hide than spot.Except, again, a ridiculous hide beats a decent spot. You can make stealth characters who can only be detected by the specific counter magics.My assumption is a stealth-based character who ambushes enemies in general. Then he either happens upon a lower-op wizard or is contracted to go kill him. Are paranoid wizards never actually going to be out in the open without some way to detect an ambush? Sure. Are mid-op or lower wizards going to be out in the open and vulnerable to a specialized stealth character's ambush? Sure.
First, what's the particular kill method here? I mean, methods exist, sure, but it's important to specify so that we know what we're talking about, as different methods can have different defenses, of differing levels of commonness. Second, what's your actual ridiculous hide? I know that ridiculous hide checks exist, but just tossing out the word without actual numbers seems somewhat lacking in weight. Finally, for linked perception, while the duration is an issue, and while it does only work for druids (or rangers) as a method, that "decent bump" you're referring to can theoretically be big enough to outclass most hide checks in existence. Seriously, crazy spell.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

First, what's the particular kill method here? I mean, methods exist, sure, but it's important to specify so that we know what we're talking about, as different methods can have different defenses, of differing levels of commonness. Second, what's your actual ridiculous hide? I know that ridiculous hide checks exist, but just tossing out the word without actual numbers seems somewhat lacking in weight. Finally, for linked perception, while the duration is an issue, and while it does only work for druids (or rangers) as a method, that "decent bump" you're referring to can theoretically be big enough to outclass most hide checks in existence. Seriously, crazy spell.Linked Perception is great if you're using nanobots. In a regular party it's maybe +8. And like you suggested, short duration buffs are going to be much more important to the sneaky character (who just needs one moment to strike) than to the spotter (who needs to be on all the time to be effective). In addition, with UMD the sneaker has a LOT more buffing options. A wand of Camouflage gets a +10 circumstance bonus to hide. A wand of reduce person (or a dorje of compression, or just a ring of reduction) boosts the size bonus to hide. A dorje of chameleon gives a +10 enhancement bonus to hide. And of course there's invisibility. So let's ignore pre-buffs for a moment and focus on always-on abilities:

A human Druid has ranks + WIS + items. At level 10 pre-buff with a 24 WIS, a +5 competence magic item and a +2 masterwork tool that's +27.
A Dark (or collar of umbral) Whisper Gnome [sneaky class] has ranks + DEX + items + size + racial. At level 10 pre-buff with a 26 DEX, a +5 competence magic item and a +2 masterwork tool that's +44. So, the druid only has a chance of spotting the gnome once he gets within 30' due to distance penalties. And that's if he's not distracted.

The particular kill method I had in mind was to pounce (barb 1 dip) in the surprise round with mostly non-precision damage. A splatbook mid-op mage probably laughs off any sneak attack, but will still die unless he can detect the ambush.

[eggynack]

I'd put it at more than a +8. I mean, just adding in the animal companion pushes things to +10, and it's trivial to go past that, even without the aid of nano-bots. As for your numbers, they're somewhat logical, though a druid pushing things at all can obviously surpass those numbers by a lot. Something as simple as primal senses, combined with maybe wild instincts, boosts that by +6 all day. Making this an anthro bat also increases the wisdom mod to +3, and tossing on dragonborn with the mind trait grants another +2 to both.

As for the kill condition, it seems plausible, though there are druid builds that push HP pretty hard, so you wouldn't likely be able to skimp on the damage dealing half of this. Similarly, druids can run pretty high AC, can trivially pick up uncanny dodge to keep it high in the surprise round (the aforementioned primal spells), and fly all the time, so you equally can't skimp much on the AC, and need some way of dealing with flight. Ultimately, the whole plan hangs together reasonably, though perhaps not perfectly, which is about where I'd figured it would be. Darkstalker is definitely the closest a mundane character can come to seriously challenging a caster, and it might actually do so.

[Darkweave31]

I know the thread is focusing on non-caster counters to casters, but perhaps it would be useful to have a spellcasting mage killer build as a comparison to measure the capabilities of non-caster builds against. For just a quick example that I'm sure could be refined further...

Cheater Guardian of Mystra
Cloistered Cleric 3/ Church Inquisitor 2/ Dweomerkeeper 10/ whatever 5

Domains: Knowledge, Magic, Inquisition

Use the divine magician variant to get access to key abjurations and divinations from the wizard list like foresight, Greater anyspell can get you celerity as well iirc so you can beat the mage at their own game.

Key feats: Magical Training, arcane mastery, divine defiance, initiate of mystra

Tactics:
Use divine defiance to counterspell as an immediate action (no need to prepare an action). Inquisition domain gives you +4 to dispel checks and arcane mastery allows you to take 10, pretty-much ensuring a successful counterspell against anything within a few levels of you. Comes online as early as 5th when you get dispel magic. Dweomerkeeper can add greater dispel magic to their mantle of spells, allowing spontaneous counterspelling. Foresight ensures the cleric is not flat-footed when facing off a mage and is thus capable of counterspelling any attempt at celerity. Initiate of Mystra allows you to cast spells in an antimagic field and can produce a very one-sided encounter should you manage to keep an enemy caster within one. Dweomerkeeper ensures that your buffs can't be dispelled in turn since they are supernatural in nature. Access to disjunction also gives you an advantage when trying to deal with things like prismatic walls, or just nuking the caster's buffs.

All in all, this build comes online early and just gets more powerful as it levels. Not only that, but the flavor is there as you are basically Mystra's policeman, making sure that mages that misuse magic are found and brought to justice.


Ruby Knight Vindicator
Cleric 3/ Church Inquisitor 1/ Crusader 1/ Ruby Knight Vindicator 10/ whatever 5

Very similar to the previous build, only now instead of using initiate of mystra to turn an antimagic field into a one-sided battle, you have access to crusader maneuvers. Divine Impetus (depending on the ruling, not sure on the RAW) might allow multiple uses of divine defiance each round (gives an extra swift action for a turn attempt which might be able to convert to a immediate action for counterspelling). If this is the case, now you can stop the standard action spell, the quickened spell, and even take on multiple casters at once, keeping all of their spells countered while slamming them with a mace. They also get some stealth synergy.

Again this build has the flavor with the crunch since Wee Jas is a goddess of magic. You could be a hunter of casters that seek to prolong their life with undeath or other magic. You bring the inevitable end to those who think they are untouchable.

Again, not exactly what we're looking for here, but it does give a few tricks that could possibly be mimic'd by non-casters...

[Werephilosopher]

malconvokers without time to get up summoning circles

If you're a Malconvoker who doesn't give up the familiar for rapid summoning, you don't deserve to win. :smalltongue:

[cosmonuts]

Hey, wasn't there a "build a mage-killer" thread a year ago or more?

[ryu]

Hey, wasn't there a "build a mage-killer" thread a year ago or more?

And a month ago, a week ago, on some other forum a decade ago, and so on. It has been happening since shortly after 3.5 started to exist.

[cosmonuts]

And a month ago, a week ago, on some other forum a decade ago, and so on. It has been happening since shortly after 3.5 started to exist.

Yes, but this one had an actual build. IIRC it gave the mundane the best possible chance of winning, although it couldn't guarantee it, this being mundane vs wizard.

I wasn't on these forums back then, except passingly to look at builds, so I don't remember much else about the thread.

[Darkweave31]

Can I just say how much I want to be a tibbit mage slayer now if only for the joke of a housecat killing the wizard...

[Flickerdart]

Yes, but this one had an actual build. IIRC it gave the mundane the best possible chance of winning, although it couldn't guarantee it, this being mundane vs wizard.
ExFighter? That thing had a bunch of spellcasting levels and operated on more than a few absurd assumptions about how the rules work.

[EugeneVoid]

ExFighter:
Using broken epic rules and broken assumptions to boost a fighter using spells to "anti-mage."

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

I'd put it at more than a +8. I mean, just adding in the animal companion pushes things to +10, and it's trivial to go past that, even without the aid of nano-bots. As for your numbers, they're somewhat logical, though a druid pushing things at all can obviously surpass those numbers by a lot. Something as simple as primal senses, combined with maybe wild instincts, boosts that by +6 all day. Making this an anthro bat also increases the wisdom mod to +3, and tossing on dragonborn with the mind trait grants another +2 to both.

As for the kill condition, it seems plausible, though there are druid builds that push HP pretty hard, so you wouldn't likely be able to skimp on the damage dealing half of this. Similarly, druids can run pretty high AC, can trivially pick up uncanny dodge to keep it high in the surprise round (the aforementioned primal spells), and fly all the time, so you equally can't skimp much on the AC, and need some way of dealing with flight. Ultimately, the whole plan hangs together reasonably, though perhaps not perfectly, which is about where I'd figured it would be. Darkstalker is definitely the closest a mundane character can come to seriously challenging a caster, and it might actually do so.A four man party (incl. the druid) with one animal companion gets a +8, which is why I pegged the figure there. Also, again, minutes/level. Primal senses provides a competence bonus, which merely replaces the bonus granted by an item. Wild Instincts is also minutes/level. These minutes/level perception buffs are great in those niche situations where you know you have to spot someone in the next few minutes... but it's hard to rely on them to detect ambushes unless you have NI low level slots or a way to persist them. If you're at that op-level, you can also just have mindsight up and render this whole thing moot. Ghostwise halflings are a good choice for a druid who wants to communicate while in wildshape anyway.

Either side could surpass those basic numbers I posted. The whisper gnome could go factotum 3, or take relevant feats. Or, if we're talking about optimizing more than a dragonborn anthrobat, he could find ways to make those temporary buffs (again chameleon, camouflage, compression) permanent. The point is just that it's easier to pump the sneaky side, and the perceptive side has those pesky distance penalties.

[eggynack]

A four man party (incl. the druid) with one animal companion gets a +8, which is why I pegged the figure there. Also, again, minutes/level. Primal senses provides a competence bonus, which merely replaces the bonus granted by an item. Wild Instincts is also minutes/level. These minutes/level perception buffs are great in those niche situations where you know you have to spot someone in the next few minutes... but it's hard to rely on them to detect ambushes unless you have NI low level slots or a way to persist them. If you're at that op-level, you can also just have mindsight up and render this whole thing moot. Ghostwise halflings are a good choice for a druid who wants to communicate while in wildshape anyway.
A four man party, including the druid, with an animal companion, is a +10. You count as an ally, both in the game's definition of ally, and the spell. You're correct on primal senses, but wild instincts grants a +1 bonus to spot and listen for as long as it's prepared.


Either side could surpass those basic numbers I posted. The whisper gnome could go factotum 3, or take relevant feats. Or, if we're talking about optimizing more than a dragonborn anthrobat, he could find ways to make those temporary buffs (again chameleon, camouflage, compression) permanent. The point is just that it's easier to pump the sneaky side, and the perceptive side has those pesky distance penalties.
I suppose, though I'm still interested in seeing how the damage figures add up, especially when you're also trying to overcome other druid defenses, and trying to do this at a low enough level that the druid isn't running around on the ethreal plan all the time, or something similarly problematic. I mean, if the druid picks up a wild shape amulet, then this plan probably falls apart somewhere around level eleven, when dire tortoise comes online.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

A four man party, including the druid, with an animal companion, is a +10. You count as an ally, both in the game's definition of ally, and the spell.
Each ally in the area (including yourself ) gains a +2 bonus on Spot and Listen checks per each ally in the area. For example, if you and three allies are in the area, each of you gains a +6 bonus.Emphasis mine. You are your own ally, but specific trumps general.
I suppose, though I'm still interested in seeing how the damage figures add up, especially when you're also trying to overcome other druid defenses, and trying to do this at a low enough level that the druid isn't running around on the ethreal plan all the time, or something similarly problematic. I mean, if the druid picks up a wild shape amulet, then this plan probably falls apart somewhere around level eleven, when dire tortoise comes online.1. This was a wizard killing challenge. Then it morphed into "The wizard probably has a druid buddy with good spot." Now it's become "okay, actually kill a druid." Honestly, the Mage Slayer line is going to be next to useless against a druid, who is quite at home exchanging full attacks anyway.

In any event, an ECL 10 sneaky ambushing character not particularly optimized to kill someone immune to SA might look something like this (not necessarily in this order):

Whisper Gnome Lightbringer Rogue 1/Drow SA Fighter 1/Whirlpounce Barbarian 1/Totemist 2/Cloistered Cleric 1/Swordsage 4
Feats (2 flaws): Weapon Finesse, Shadow Blade, Darkstalker, Multiweapon Fighting, Craven, [extra feat, probably missing something important], 3 devotion feats incl. knowledge devotion (probably travel and law)
Abilities: DEX >> CON > WIS > INT > CHA > STR (32 pb: 8 str/18 dex/14 con/10 int/12 wis/12 cha before race/levelup/item)
Items of note: Continuous Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis, Dex item, Scout's Headband, Shadow Cloak, a bunch of small +1 shortswords, one of which is Dispelling, wands/dorjes of chameleon, camouflage and reduce person, among others
Totem chakra bind: Girallon arms, wielding shortswords

Full attack with Whirlpounce (charge), crap roll on knowledge devotion, and Law Devotion activated:

Shortswords +21/+21/+19/+19/+19/+16, 1d4+16, +4d6+10 sneak attack. Dispelling with the main hand weapon could very well mitigate the SA immunity (likely turning off uncanny dodge and downgrading to light fortification). The mage goes squish. The Druid... may survive ~111 damage over six hits, or may be in a form with a high flatfooted AC to turn that into fewer hits.

[eggynack]

Emphasis mine. You are your own ally, but specific trumps general.
Fair enough. That's a pretty odd thing that I hadn't noticed. Either way, there's some clear room in between standard party and infinite nanobots where the druid's in a good place.

1. This was a wizard killing challenge. Then it morphed into "The wizard probably has a druid buddy with good spot." Now it's become "okay, actually kill a druid."
I thought we had mostly been focusing on wizardry, with occasional detours into druids. I'm somewhat interested in how that plays out, as a hyper-stealth enemy isn't a thing that I've really put much into solving yet. Druids get access to an absolutely ridiculous number of vision modes, but it all kinda falls apart under the weight of darkstalker.



Shortswords +21/+21/+19/+19/+19/+16, 1d4+16, +4d6+10 sneak attack. Dispelling with the main hand weapon could very well mitigate the SA immunity (likely turning off uncanny dodge and downgrading to light fortification). The mage goes squish. The Druid... may survive ~111 damage over six hits, or may be in a form with a high flatfooted AC to turn that into fewer hits.
Dispelling might not work here, as a ring of counterspells keyed to dispel and/or spell-battle is a pretty common maneuver, especially when you're running a lot of buffs. As for HP quantity on a druid at ECL 10, the maximum possible is likely the dragonborn desert half-orc plan, which entails something like a +5 con mod (assuming base 14, and a +2 item, before racials), as well as three levels that use a d10, including the first. That'd all add up to around 102.5 HP on average, which is a bit below the damage total, but that's before taking other factors into account, so it's probably druid favorable. It could definitely play out the other way, though.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Fair enough. That's a pretty odd thing that I hadn't noticed. Either way, there's some clear room in between standard party and infinite nanobots where the druid's in a good place.... for minutes/level :smallwink:
I thought we had mostly been focusing on wizardry, with occasional detours into druids. I'm somewhat interested in how that plays out, as a hyper-stealth enemy isn't a thing that I've really put much into solving yet. Druids get access to an absolutely ridiculous number of vision modes, but it all kinda falls apart under the weight of darkstalker.Well, the solution is pretty much mindsight. Psions can go crystal master for always-on touchsight. Undead can get lifesense, but you could have an undead stealther...
Dispelling might not work here, as a ring of counterspells keyed to dispel and/or spell-battle is a pretty common maneuver, especially when you're running a lot of buffs.The ring of counterspells will work the first time, but since it's a free action activation he can do it thrice. Spell battle takes an immediate action, and I'll concede that the stealther is screwed if he's not the sole actor in the surprise round.
As for HP quantity on a druid at ECL 10, the maximum possible is likely the dragonborn desert half-orc plan, which entails something like a +5 con mod (assuming base 14, and a +2 item, before racials), as well as three levels that use a d10, including the first. That'd all add up to around 102.5 HP on average, which is a bit below the damage total, but that's before taking other factors into account, so it's probably druid favorable. It could definitely play out the other way, though.That damage count assumes no SA gets through, so if one of the Heart spells (+ one of the primal spells) is dispelled early on, that spells doom. The SA is about half of the damage. I could reconstruct him to do more regular damage, I guess..

[eggynack]

... for minutes/level :smallwink:
Indeed so. Certainly not an ideal solution here (though you could do something absurd, like try to hear everything within running distance of you, to see if someone mentions killing you), but I suppose the point is that it's not really a marginal bonus. Even something as simple as a few wild empathy provided bird friends can pull a lot of weight.


Well, the solution is pretty much mindsight. Psions can go crystal master for always-on touchsight. Undead can get lifesense, but you could have an undead stealther
Yeah, I suppose. It's just kinda awkward in this particular instance, though there may be some reasonable wild shape method of achieving telepathy.


The ring of counterspells will work the first time, but since it's a free action activation he can do it thrice. Spell battle takes an immediate action, and I'll concede that the stealther is screwed if he's not the sole actor in the surprise round.That damage count assumes no SA gets through, so if one of the Heart spells (+ one of the primal spells) is dispelled early on, that spells doom. The SA is about half of the damage. I could reconstruct him to do more regular damage, I guess
Dispelling through the ring of counterspells is kinda tricky. It looks like you have to get a hit through in order to activate, and that hit needs to break through normal AC, because the druid is presumably not losing dex bonus to AC. Let's assume for a moment that I'm pushing things a bit, and swap over to the anthro bat mode (I presumably don't necessarily need the high HP if I can push AC enough). So, we start with, say, 20 AC from desmodu hunting bat, push that to an effective 32 from greater luminous armor, and then we toss on a monk's belt. Assuming a starting wisdom of 24, 26 from level, say 30 from item, and that adds up to a total of +11 from the belt, or 43 AC overall.

That means that you need a nat 20 to hit on your attack, which causes a dispel attempt, which is counterspelled, and then other stuff happens, and something or another blah de blah. Anyway, I think that plan is a reliable counter to this particular attack, and the bonuses are high enough that it'd still probably be reliable if I returned to the half-orc, or relaxed certain other assumptions. I suspect that there are ways to push attack bonus also, so that might put the whole thing back at square one, but it's a lot of AC to push through, so it might mean compromises elsewhere in the build, or it might mean nothing, or maybe some third thing in between. I could probably also pump the AC a bit more, while still only relying on long term resources, but it's tricky.

[HammeredWharf]

This was a wizard killing challenge. Then it morphed into "The wizard probably has a druid buddy with good spot." Now it's become "okay, actually kill a druid." Honestly, the Mage Slayer line is going to be next to useless against a druid, who is quite at home exchanging full attacks anyway.

No, the OP specified the target was a primary caster. Wizard is just the first class that popped up.

I was going to write about Druid AC, but then Eggynack went ninja. Note that his calculations don't even include any AC-boosting items or Barkskin.

[eggynack]

Note that his calculations don't even include any AC-boosting items or Barkskin.
I don't really like either all that much. Druid items can go a really long way, and barkskin falls under the duration problem. As a replacement for the latter, I'd suggest scales of the sealord (Storm, 121). It only grants a +3 here, compared to barkskin's +4, and it's a 3rd level spell, instead of a 2nd, but it lasts hours/level, and that makes a lot of difference. These things are both reasonable, especially barkskin, which is the working baseline for this sort of effect, but they're things I don't like using much. I don't know where the line is, between just building a standard druid, and building a druid meta-gamed to handle this particular problem, but it's a line I'd like to avoid crossing.

Edit: Incidentally, if we're doing the aberration wild shape thing, and I'm beginning to suspect that you always should be if you're going for maximum optimization, we could use something like kython form (BoVD, 178) for 24 base AC. You might also be allowed to wild shape into a kython which specifically has a phase organ, which is sort of the whole point of becoming one in the first place. That part's tricky though. I should probably check for other high AC options, because I was mostly looking for things more like crazy ethereal powers, and less like high AC, when I was doing this stuff.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Dispelling through the ring of counterspells is kinda tricky. It looks like you have to get a hit through in order to activate, and that hit needs to break through normal AC, because the druid is presumably not losing dex bonus to AC. Let's assume for a moment that I'm pushing things a bit, and swap over to the anthro bat mode (I presumably don't necessarily need the high HP if I can push AC enough). So, we start with, say, 20 AC from desmodu hunting bat, push that to an effective 32 from greater luminous armor, and then we toss on a monk's belt. Assuming a starting wisdom of 24, 26 from level, say 30 from item, and that adds up to a total of +11 from the belt, or 43 AC overall.

That means that you need a nat 20 to hit on your attack, which causes a dispel attempt, which is counterspelled, and then other stuff happens, and something or another blah de blah. Anyway, I think that plan is a reliable counter to this particular attack, and the bonuses are high enough that it'd still probably be reliable if I returned to the half-orc, or relaxed certain other assumptions. I suspect that there are ways to push attack bonus also, so that might put the whole thing back at square one, but it's a lot of AC to push through, so it might mean compromises elsewhere in the build, or it might mean nothing, or maybe some third thing in between. I could probably also pump the AC a bit more, while still only relying on long term resources, but it's tricky.Yeah, I'd say using AnthroBat, sanctified spells, and wilding clasps (btw) to get a consistent 43 AC gets to about the same optimization level as the sneaker. Same optimization means the T1 is going to win. Again, without persistomancy the wizard isn't going to get that level of regular defense. At that point the mundane would need a way to get a higher attack bonus, which funnily enough probably involves some form of shapeshifting.

[eggynack]

Yeah, I'd say using AnthroBat, sanctified spells, and wilding clasps (btw) to get a consistent 43 AC gets to about the same optimization level as the sneaker. Same optimization means the T1 is going to win. Again, without persistomancy the wizard isn't going to get that level of regular defense. At that point the mundane would need a way to get a higher attack bonus, which funnily enough probably involves some form of shapeshifting.
I can't say I'm all that scared for the wizard. Worst case scenario, the wizard probably picks up something like abrupt jaunt, gets hit once in the face for about 42.5 damage, and then 'ports away. Druids usually need to apply more brute force solutions, akin to the AC one, to solve problems. Wizards can apply weirder, subtler, and often more potent solutions. Druids get access to ridiculous 360 foot blindsight (Seriously. Dolgaunt (ECS, 281). Check it out.), but wizards are pulling off mindsight, or other things of that nature. Such is the way of the world.

[aleucard]

Yeah, I'd say using AnthroBat, sanctified spells, and wilding clasps (btw) to get a consistent 43 AC gets to about the same optimization level as the sneaker. Same optimization means the T1 is going to win. Again, without persistomancy the wizard isn't going to get that level of regular defense. At that point the mundane would need a way to get a higher attack bonus, which funnily enough probably involves some form of shapeshifting.

To be perfectly honest, I was kind of wanting to see if a fully-kitted out (but not TO, only stuff that could be brought past 90% of DM's at least) Mage Killer build could stack up to a bog-standard Primary, whichever primary that is. Part of the problem is, of course, determining what exactly bog-standard optimization for these classes IS, which is why I'm calling out the Handbooks so to make things more expedient. There's some, er, 'odd' things referenced in those things, yeah, but little of it would be hard to get a DM to agree to that isn't already marked as such. As said previously, we all know full well how completely, utterly, hopelessly bork't a non-Primary character of any description is against any Primary of even reasonably high levels of optimization. I'm wondering if the gap can be closed with at least the more common varieties.

[Togo]

This doesn't necessarily operate on gravity. You start with a hat, and then there's a cone where the hat once was, surrounding your entire body, no falling necessary.

It has to fall, driven by gravity, or else it won't be flush with the floor, and will fail as a means of blocking AMF. Unless your head is exactly and precisely aligned with the floor.


Moreover, it doesn't necessarily matter that the cone doesn't activate off turn, if it doesn't activate off turn. You can just wait till it is your turn, because that's when you do most of your spell casting anyway. Sure, you miss out on immediate actions, which cuts off some fun stuff, but you didn't necessarily need them, especially with some of your opponent's best potential actions trapped behind an AMF.

Then you risk your opponent just grappling you on his turn, while you're under the effects of a AMF, and then being stuck with him under your own cone. While grappled.

It's basically a double bind. If you rigorously enforce the turn-based system, you end up with silly results. If you don't, you can't always stop the person with the AMF getting under the cone before it hits the ground. If nothing else, most effects that produce a line between two squares allow a reflex save to see which side of the line you end up on.



So the only thing that a non-Primary can do to be more relevant than a summon against a Primary caster (or more specifically, Wizard) is get Darkstalker, try his best to cover what detection methods aren't by that, and boost BAB/Damage as high as possible? Sounds like pure **** to me, but if that's the word of the experts, alright.

So this entire topic is completely useless, then. Is that the general consensus?

It's just the local meta. You get used to it.

[eggynack]

It has to fall, driven by gravity, or else it won't be flush with the floor, and will fail as a means of blocking AMF. Unless your head is exactly and precisely aligned with the floor.
I don't think it has to be aligned as well as you think it does. As long as it's less than a foot off the ground, things should be reasonably safe.



It's basically a double bind. If you rigorously enforce the turn-based system, you end up with silly results. If you don't, you can't always stop the person with the AMF getting under the cone before it hits the ground. If nothing else, most effects that produce a line between two squares allow a reflex save to see which side of the line you end up on.

But if we're not rigorously enforcing the turn based system (not even sure what rigorous enforcement would look like in this case), then the cone should pretty much just fall when there's no longer a thing holding it up. Y'know, like in reality.

[Aquillion]

It's just the local meta. You get used to it.I think you meant D&D's meta...? It's not local, it's how the game works. The devs have flat-out stated they weren't attempting to balance casters and noncasters in the core book.

The only people who really feel they're balanced are people who basically go "well... they published it, so it has to be balanced on some level, right?" Which is silly. Arguing that a little extra BAB, some extra HP, and a few feats or typical class features are worth as much as nine levels of full core spellcasting is just not credible on the face of it, even once you get away from all the various examples people use. "I can teleport to the other side of the universe in one action, initiate a plague of undead capable of destroying a city, or obliterate a small army with a tornado", as a level-up benefit, does not balance meaningfully against "+1 BAB and half a feat."

[m149307]

*Troll time* level 20 Monk with all buffs to grapple and such. Also has Anti-Magic Shackles. Grapple that caster then knock him out, and drag him off a cliff or jump off a mountain with him. You walk away fine while leaving said caster a broken bag of skin and bones.

[dascarletm]

*Troll time* level 20 Monk with all buffs to grapple and such. Also has Anti-Magic Shackles. Grapple that caster then knock him out, and drag him off a cliff or jump off a mountain with him. You walk away fine while leaving said caster a broken bag of skin and bones.

A monk would work against a non-optimized caster (such as the pre-printed ones) or a caster built by someone new to the system.

High saves, flurry of misses would actually hit for most attacks, and if the wizard isn't sporting contingencies or quick use teleportation grappling may be effective.

[Togo]

I think you meant D&D's meta...?

No, I didn't. I was specifically and deliberately referencing the local group (this board, associated boards) rather than the game as a whole.


It's not local, it's how the game works.

No, it is local, and it's how the game works given the assumptions and practices used in this particular local group. The point is not that the rules change from place to place, but that the way that they are used is very different.

If it helps, a great many groups assume their local meta is universal.

[ben-zayb]

The system isn't local, as is the range of optimization. That is how the game works. It is different from houserules and self nerfs, which is what local groups do to make the game match their playstyle.

[Togo]

The only people who really feel they're balanced are people who basically go "well... they published it, so it has to be balanced on some level, right?" Which is silly. Arguing that a little extra BAB, some extra HP, and a few feats or typical class features are worth as much as nine levels of full core spellcasting is just not credible on the face of it, even once you get away from all the various examples people use. "I can teleport to the other side of the universe in one action, initiate a plague of undead capable of destroying a city, or obliterate a small army with a tornado", as a level-up benefit, does not balance meaningfully against "+1 BAB and half a feat."

Depends on the game. If the game involves squaring off against monsters in melee combat, and doesn't involve trying to get to the other side of the continent, trying to destroy a city or obliterate an army, then the BAB may be more useful. Not more powerful, but more useful. As any rogue knows, it doesn't matter how good you are doing something if that something never comes up in game.

The game designers didn't try to balance characters between each other in terms of power, but in terms of role. The feeling was that being the big tough guy that squares up to the dragon in person was a very prominent role, and didn't need anything to make it more attractive, while being a guy who stood back and threw spells, or worse, healed people, was a bit of a rubbish role and needed extra power to make it more interesting.

Of course they may not have succeeded in that, but it doesn't take much to realise that the outcomes you get from the game system depend very much on your play style, and your base assumptions. Which is why discussion threads on this board is filled with wizards with multiple layered contingencies and tin foil hats, whereas on the PbP board where people run actual games, wizards are generally not, in fact, paranoia recluses with six pages of contingencies and safeguards.

[Vaz]

*Troll time* level 20 Monk with all buCasteri grapple and such. Also has Anti-Magic Shackles. Grapple that caster then knock him out, and drag him off a cliff or jump off a mountain with him. You walk away fine while leaving said caster a broken bag of skin and bones.

You say troll tme, but hpw does monk get close enpugh to the Caster?

[dascarletm]

You say troll tme, but hpw does monk get close enpugh to the Caster?

mad bonuses to move-speed yo.


scrawny book-readers are too busy tripping over their long flowing garments.

[Vaz]

Celeroty+Teleport
Divination

Lets not even get into nested contingencies.

[Azoth]

I doubt that this build will hold any meaningful threat without his gear list, something I haven't felt like hunting down. This was a BBEG I used a ways back for a campain.

Winged Human
Ranger1/Monk2/Rogue2/Barbarian2/Occult Slayer5/Witch Slayer2/Warblade2/Swordsage4

ACF's:
Trapmaster
Arcane Hunter
Overwhelming Attack Monk
Martial Rogue
Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian
Whirling Frenzy Rage Variant
Wolf Totem Barbarian
Spell Reflection

Feats (in no particular order. 2 Flaws were used):
Improved Initiative
Able Learner
Nemesis
Weapon Focus
Power Attack
Improved Bullrush
Item Familiar
Blind Fight
Combat Reflexes
Imp Trip
Mage Slayer
Pierce Magical Protection
Pierce Magical Concealment
Darkstalker
Shocktrooper

Notable Class Abilities:
Evasion
Mettle
Spell Reflection 3+dex mod/day
Trapfinding
Rage1/day
Pounce
Wis to AC (in light/no armor)
+3 bonus to all saves
Spell Turning 2/day (as spell)
At Will detect magic within 60ft as free action
Personal Mind Blank
Immunity to Divination
Access to 5thlvl Warblade Maneuvers (including WRT and IHS)
Access to 6th lvl Swordsage Maneuvers (including shadow Hand Teleports)

Build Basics:
BAB: 17/12/7/2
Saves (without any modifiers or class abilities) Fort:16 Ref:13 Will:14
HP: 14d8+2d6+4d12= AVG:96 before Con Mod.
Skill Points=148 with Int 10.

[HammeredWharf]

I don't really like either all that much. Druid items can go a really long way, and barkskin falls under the duration problem. As a replacement for the latter, I'd suggest scales of the sealord (Storm, 121). It only grants a +3 here, compared to barkskin's +4, and it's a 3rd level spell, instead of a 2nd, but it lasts hours/level, and that makes a lot of difference. These things are both reasonable, especially barkskin, which is the working baseline for this sort of effect, but they're things I don't like using much. I don't know where the line is, between just building a standard druid, and building a druid meta-gamed to handle this particular problem, but it's a line I'd like to avoid crossing.

Edit: Incidentally, if we're doing the aberration wild shape thing, and I'm beginning to suspect that you always should be if you're going for maximum optimization, we could use something like kython form (BoVD, 178) for 24 base AC. You might also be allowed to wild shape into a kython which specifically has a phase organ, which is sort of the whole point of becoming one in the first place. That part's tricky though. I should probably check for other high AC options, because I was mostly looking for things more like crazy ethereal powers, and less like high AC, when I was doing this stuff.

I'm a rather big fan of the Swift Hunter ACF from UA that gives you some Ranger and Monk tricks, including the AC bonus. You can pull off some nifty, very wealth-efficient mounted builds with it and Halfling Druid substitution levels, solving the cost issues you'd normally run into as a low-level Druid. RAW you can take it and then go into Lion of Talisid, regaining access to Wild Shape. As for Barkskin, it can be extended with a rod, so its duration is ok-ish, but of course Sealord is better. It's just more obscure.

You can also use Aberration Wild Shape to do some rather crazy, borderline TO stuff, including turning into a will-o-wisp for permanent invisibility and magic immunity or a choker for two standard actions per turn. The will-o-wisp form + Enhanced Wild Shape could be quite problematic, as the assassin would have to track down a flying and invisible druid.

I'm not sure these tricks follow the "mid-op caster who read the handbooks" spirit of this thread, but then again, they're not hard to pull off and aren't questionable in any way. Druids are sneaky like that. They get lots of bonuses that would be fine by themselves, but after adding them all you get a monster who solos CR+4 encounters with ease.

[eggynack]

I'm a rather big fan of the Swift Hunter ACF from UA that gives you some Ranger and Monk tricks, including the AC bonus. You can pull off some nifty, very wealth-efficient mounted builds with it and Halfling Druid substitution levels, solving the cost issues you'd normally run into as a low-level Druid. RAW you can take it and then go into Lion of Talisid, regaining access to Wild Shape.
Those ACF's are alright, I suppose, but they're not great. You're losing a lot of wild shape advancement from swift hunter, even if you do end up in lion of talisid, and most of the stuff you get from swift hunter can be pulled off trivially with a combination of wild shape and a monk's belt. As for halfling substitution levels, I don't think I can abide by the loss in summoning capability.


As for Barkskin, it can be extended with a rod, so its duration is ok-ish, but of course Sealord is better. It's just more obscure.
Yeah, though I've gotta say, I've always been a fan of obscure stuff. People expect an entangle, because it's sitting right there in core, and is super powerful. People never expect a vision of punishment (CV, 59), nauseating enemies as a swift action from a first level slot.

You can also use Aberration Wild Shape to do some rather crazy, borderline TO stuff, including turning into a will-o-wisp for permanent invisibility and magic immunity or a choker for two standard actions per turn. The will-o-wisp form + Enhanced Wild Shape could be quite problematic, as the assassin would have to track down a flying and invisible druid.
Yeah, I've been researching that feat a lot lately, and I think I have all the big forms down. Choker isn't the best option, incidentally. First, it requires assume supernatural ability, which is an annoying feat to pick up after spending two others. Second, it seems that the premium edition of the monster manual eliminated the relevant ability, though I've yet to see the change in person. Instead, the form of choice is the nilshai (UE, 67), which does essentially the same thing, except you need only use enhance wild shape to access the ability. Also, it flies, which is cool. It's a pretty ridiculous little feat.

[Gemini476]

Here, have a level 10 low-op Wizard. An NPC, to be exact. It's not that impressive, although I could see some nasty things that could be done with careful spell selection.
Drow Wizard 10, CR 11
Medium humanoid(elf)
HD 10d4+3, hp 29
Init +3
Spd 30ft.
AC 17, touch 14, flat-footed 14
BAB+5, grapple +5
(Full) Attack +6 melee (1d6+1/18-20, masterwork rapier) or +9 ranged (1d4/19-20, masterwork hand crossbow)
Special qualities: drow traits
Alignment Neutral Evil

Saves: Fort +4, Ref +7, Will +9
Str 10, Dex 16, Con 11, Int 19, Wis 12, Cha 10

Skills: Concentration +13, Craft(alchemy)+14, Knowledge(arcana)+17, Knowledge(dungeoneering)+17, Knowledge(history)+14, Listen +3, Search +6, Spellcraft +19, Spot +3
Feats: Brew Potion, Combat Casting, Craft Wondrous Item, Great Fortitude, Scribe Scroll, Spell Penetration, Toughness

Drow traits: Immune to magic sleepspells and effects; +2 racial bonus on saves against enchantment spells or effects; darkvision 120 ft.; entitled to a Search check when within 5 feet of a secret or concealed door as though actively looking for it; spell resistance 26; +2 racial bonus on Will saves against spells or spell-like abilities; spell-like abilities (1/day—dancing lights, darkness,and faerie fire as the spells from a 10th-level caster); light blindness (blinded for 1 round by abrupt exposure to bright light, –1 circumstance penalty on all attack rolls, saves, and checks while operating in bright light); +2 racial bonus on Listen, Spot, and Search checks (already figured into the statistics given above).

Wizard Spells Prepared(4/5/5/4/4/2; save DC 14 + spell level):
0—daze, detect magic, ghost sound, ray of frost
1st—magic missile(3), shield, true strike
2nd—blur, flaming sphere, glitterdust, Melf’s acid arrow, web
3rd—dispel magic, fireball, haste, lightning bolt
4th—enervation, ice storm(2), shout
5th—cone of cold, teleport.

Spellbook:
0—daze, detect magic, detect poison, flare, ghost sound, ray of frost, read magic
1st—charm person, identify, mage armor, magic missile, magic weapon, protection from good, shield, true strike
2nd—bear’s endurance, blur, bulls’s strength, cat’s grace, glitterdust, invisibility, Melf’s acid arrow, resist energy, scorching ray, web
3rd—dispel magic, fireball, fly, haste, hold person, invisibility sphere, lightning bolt, suggestion
4th—charm monster, confusion, dimension door, enervation, ice storm, Otiluke’s resilient sphere, scrying, shout, stoneskin
5th—cone of cold, dominate person, telekinesis, teleport, wall of force.

Possessions: Bracers of armor +2, ring of protection +1, amulet of natural armor +1, cloak of resistance +1, masterwork rapier, masterwork hand crossbow, 10 bolts, 3 doses drow knockout poison, spellbook


By the way, the DMG NPC generation tables are kind of useless. I'm thinking that I'll need to include the PHB2 PC feat order if I ever get around to making a random NPC generator.

[dascarletm]

Celeroty+Teleport
Divination

Lets not even get into nested contingencies.

Divination is a school silly, not a spell, or even an action!

Are characters not flat-footed before their turn? One cannot use immediate actions unless their feet are firmly arched. And don't say he has sufficient prudence, precaution, or preparedness to keep his arches from hitting the floor. That spell lasts for about 3 hours! That just gives the monk 3 hours to stretch.

Contingencies? pah! poppycock! phooey! piffle!

don't make me laugh.:smallwink:


This is satirical in nature.

[HammeredWharf]

Those ACF's are alright, I suppose, but they're not great. You're losing a lot of wild shape advancement from swift hunter, even if you do end up in lion of talisid, and most of the stuff you get from swift hunter can be pulled off trivially with a combination of wild shape and a monk's belt.

Well, you gain some and lose some. A monk's belt is pricey for a low-lvl character, as are wilding clasps and other wild shape equipment. Also, being mounted is pretty much the only way to use share spells and share spells is sweet. Your animal companion mount can become really powerful with the extra buffs and being able to replace ref saves and touch AC with ride checks is highly useful. Losing three wild shape levels hurts, of course, but being able to pounce and cast in the same round makes up for it, unless you're going for a specific form like an aberration or one of the cryohydras.

Not that it beats highly-optimized wild shaping, but I'd say it's better than normal wild shaping. After all, being more able to cast in combat is very good when you're a T1 caster.


As for halfling substitution levels, I don't think I can abide by the loss in summoning capability.

Oh yes, I forgot all about that. Actually, that's why I ended up not taking any sub levels on my halfling druid - he wouldn't even be able to qualify for Lion of Talisid, as that PRC requires spontaneous SNA II.

[ryu]

Divination is a school silly, not a spell, or even an action!

Are characters not flat-footed before their turn? One cannot use immediate actions unless their feet are firmly arched. And don't say he has sufficient prudence, precaution, or preparedness to keep his arches from hitting the floor. That spell lasts for about 3 hours! That just gives the monk 3 hours to stretch.

Contingencies? pah! poppycock! phooey! piffle!

don't make me laugh.:smallwink:


This is satirical in nature.

All day foresight. Now the wizard is never flatfooted. No not even then. Especially not then.

[Gemini476]

Divination is a school silly, not a spell, or even an action!

*Cough (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/divination.htm)*

Then again, most wizards won't have access to that.

[Aquillion]

No, it is local, and it's how the game works given the assumptions and practices used in this particular local group. The point is not that the rules change from place to place, but that the way that they are used is very different.

If it helps, a great many groups assume their local meta is universal.Every major mechanically-focused community I've ever participated in has had basically universal agreement that casters are overwhelmingly more powerful than non-caster classes. I don't deny that someone from a community that just doesn't think about things like that might resist at first, which is where most of the culture shock comes from -- but there are still some basic universal statements you can make about the rules, and one of them is that casters are vastly more flexible and powerful than noncasting classes.

(More specifically, I feel the cultural issue you're talking about is that many players are Timmies (http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/mr11b), which means they feel that Monks are totally awesome because they get all those attacks, and Fireball is the best thing a mage can do because it causes a big explosion; whereas most people on mechanically-oriented forums are Spikes or Johnnies. There's nothing wrong with being a Timmy and enjoying the game that way! But the fact that a group of Timmies feels that fighters are totally just as good as wizards because they have high numbers and lots of attacks doesn't change the fact that, when examined through the eye of a Spike or a Johnny, wizards clearly have more overall versatility and potential oomph.)


Depends on the game. If the game involves squaring off against monsters in melee combat, and doesn't involve trying to get to the other side of the continent, trying to destroy a city or obliterate an army, then the BAB may be more useful. Not more powerful, but more useful. As any rogue knows, it doesn't matter how good you are doing something if that something never comes up in game.Absolutely not. Even in a game based around squaring off in melee combat, a few well-chosen spells can make vastly more difference than all the fighter's feats and half their BAB. If you can render the monsters unable to fight back, after all, your BAB makes almost no difference whatsoever.

Like I said, it's fine to just not care that fighters are underpowered compared to wizards, but that doesn't mean that potential and power are totally-subjective things.

(Also, the PbP boards here are a bad example, because they're attached to this forum and therefore tend to be filled with people who know about the potential problems with casters and are actively seeking to avoid disrupting the game. A caster can totally choose to deliberately focus on weaker options, or on a support role where the difference in power isn't so obvious; and they can totally avoid using spells that resolve encounters too quickly. But the fact that there's a need for them to do those things illustrates the disparity between casting and noncasting classes.)

[eggynack]

Well, you gain some and lose some. A monk's belt is pricey for a low-lvl character, as are wilding clasps and other wild shape equipment. Also, being mounted is pretty much the only way to use share spells and share spells is sweet. Your animal companion mount can become really powerful with the extra buffs and being able to replace ref saves and touch AC with ride checks is highly useful. Losing three wild shape levels hurts, of course, but being able to pounce and cast in the same round makes up for it, unless you're going for a specific form like an aberration or one of the cryohydras.
The interaction between lion and losing wild shape is kinda weird, actually. I can't tell whether you just add your lion of talisid levels to your druid levels and subtract two, which would make a trade of that sort a pretty obvious one on a build headed towards that class, or if you add your lion of talisid levels to your effective wild shape level from druidry, which would mean much more lost than two levels of advancement. Tricky stuff. As for the monk's belt being expensive, I don't know that it matters all that much. As long as you have wild shape at all, you're probably able to run a base AC in line with that provided by the monk's belt, using the tactics I mentioned above. For the share spells thing, companion spellbond is some sweet business, though losing the feat isn't the best.



Oh yes, I forgot all about that. Actually, that's why I ended up not taking any sub levels on my halfling druid - he wouldn't even be able to qualify for Lion of Talisid, as that PRC requires spontaneous SNA II.
Spontaneous summoner can mitigate that some, but the feat loss is an annoying thing.

[dascarletm]

All day foresight. Now the wizard is never flatfooted. No not even then. Especially not then.

I'm curious, do you spend 7.2 9th level slots or are we talking metamagic reducers, or rods of extend....


But even so. I'm sure yon wizard is still lacking sufficient arch in his feet when yon monk removes his favorably fitting foresight. Or just vecna blood him.


*Cough (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/divination.htm)*

Then again, most wizards won't have access to that.
:smallbiggrin:
:smallconfused:
:smallannoyed:
:smallmad:
:smallfurious:

[ryu]

I prefer rods of extend as cheapest option.

Also vecna blooded doesn't matter. You aren't the one being relevantly affected by the divination spell. I am. Specifically the never flatfooted part which completely shuts down all chance of anyone acting before me.

[Story]

I'm curious, do you spend 7.2 9th level slots or are we talking metamagic reducers, or rods of extend....


Foresight is 10min/lvl. So assuming CL 24 for simplicity, that means a normal one will last 4 hours. 8 if extended, which you'll almost certainly be doing. So that means you need 3 slots for 24 hour coverage (assuming that you're not just doing persistomancy). But you normally don't adventure all day. In a realistic game, you'd only need one casting a day.




But even so. I'm sure yon wizard is still lacking sufficient arch in his feet when yon monk removes his favorably fitting foresight. Or just vecna blood him.


As mentioned above, Vecna Blooded doesn't work against Foresight. As for removing the Foresight, you and what celerity? Heck, even without celerity in a straight initiative battle, casters will almost always beat a Monk.

[eggynack]

Heck, even without celerity in a straight initiative battle, casters will almost always beat a Monk.
Out of curiosity, how well do clerics do at that particular game? It's pretty trivial to pull off reasonably huge initiative scores on a wizard or druid, but I haven't seen much of that variety of optimization for clerics. The only thing I can really think of offhand is picking up the time domain for improved initiative, which is a reasonable maneuver.

[dascarletm]

Foresight is 10min/lvl. So assuming CL 24 for simplicity, that means a normal one will last 4 hours. 8 if extended, which you'll almost certainly be doing. So that means you need 3 slots for 24 hour coverage (assuming that you're not just doing persistomancy). But you normally don't adventure all day. In a realistic game, you'd only need one casting a day.




As mentioned above, Vecna Blooded doesn't work against Foresight. As for removing the Foresight, you and what celerity? Heck, even without celerity in a straight initiative battle, casters will almost always beat a Monk.




Again, satire.

[georgie_leech]

Again, satire.

You'd think it'd be more obvious, what with you opening with "Troll time," a.k.a. "I am deliberately doing the worst kinds of argument for this sort of thing for humorous purposes." I'm not sure what it says that the board apparently treats such as a legitimate argument, but if there was ever an argument that we take the gap too seriously...

[dascarletm]

You'd think it'd be more obvious, what with you opening with "Troll time," a.k.a. "I am deliberately doing the worst kinds of argument for this sort of thing for humorous purposes." I'm not sure what it says that the board apparently treats such as a legitimate argument, but if there was ever an argument that we take the gap too seriously...
Well in their defense that was someone else who said that.

[m149307]

Well in their defense that was someone else who said that.
Indeed, that someone was me.

[georgie_leech]

Indeed, that someone was me.

Apologies, you opening with Troll Time and dascarletm continuing in the same vein.