If V gets 9th level spell..

[With a box]

What spells will scribed in the spellbook?
and, what spell V will prepare every morning
(Just leave it empty and use 15m is also a option)

[Flame of Anor]

Given the low level of optimization in this comic, probably Meteor Swarm.

[Trouvere]

As a specialist evoker, and sticking with core, one of the first two spells has to be either Meteor Swarm or Crushing Hand. V's shown a fondness for spells of the 'hand' line, and V has seen Xykon effectively Meteor Swarm himself, so I'd guess the former.

A lot of people think we're on a long collision course between a messy Disjunction and the Crimson Mantle, so that's a possibility too.

[Vinsfeld]

Since the Giant is totally against it, we know that V wouldn't learn Wish.

[zimmerwald1915]

As a specialist evoker, and sticking with core, one of the first two spells has to be either Meteor Swarm or Crushing Hand. V's shown a fondness for spells of the 'hand' line, and V has seen Xykon effectively Meteor Swarm himself, so I'd guess the former.

A lot of people think we're on a long collision course between a messy Disjunction and the Crimson Mantle, so that's a possibility too.
Another theory, that I just came up with and don't really support, is that V would want to avoid learning any of the 8th-level and 9th-level spells she used during the Soul Splice. These spells (9th-level spells in bold) include:


create greater undead
crushing hand
mage's disjunction
mind blank
protection from spells
shapechange
sunburst
time stop


In support of this theory, once might argue that V has not, since the splice, used the 8th-level spells mind blank, protection from spells, or sunburst (V has barred Conjuration and Necromancy, and could not use create greater undead in any case). She has used the 8th-level spells clenched fist, dimensional lock, and power word stun. These are, of course, small samples, and it could be argued that situations demanding those three spells haven't come up. But the entire sorcerer/wizard spell list is a small sample statistically speaking, and it could also be argued that protection from spells, for instance, would probably have made it onto V's prepared spell list going into the Draketooths' pyramid if she'd known it. Objections aside, the theory can be used to make predictions.

For example, it predicts that V will not choose crushing hand as one of her 9th-level spells. For the reasons stated by Trouvere, I'd agree she probably won't choose meteor swarm either. The problem the theory runs into is that there aren't all that many 9th-level evocations. There are a number of books from which the Giant has drawn content (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=16944619&postcount=2) besides the Player's Handbook. Of those, however, only the the Spell Compendium contains 9th-level evocations: instant refuge (more or less a contingency spell that only teleports the caster to a pre-chosen location, and can be triggered by as many as six contingent circumstances) and reality maelstrom (more or less a plane shift spell with an area of effect). Neither seems very "V." The Giant could always choose to draw content from books he hasn't used yet (Complete Mage, for instance, contains the spell prismatic deluge, which really appeals to me for...reasons, even though it's more or less prismatic spray, and Treantmonk likes detonate from the Player's Handbook II, which contrasts nicely with Redcloak's implosion), or homebrew a spell, but there's no particular reason to believe he will. Overall, out of the bad lot of spells from sources the Giant has used and that the "Splice-avoidance" theory does not exclude, meteor swarm actually seems the most likely.

As for V's non-evocation spell, the theory excludes mage's disjunction (making it incompatible with the "Disjoin the Mantle" theory, which finds its support mainly in a certain reading of V's character arc and the comic's themes; good evidence), shapechange, and time stop. Of the remaining Core spells, anything from Enchantment seems likely. V has used dominate person and has expounded on the merits of dominate monster, but it may be excluded by V's character development. Power word kill has the same merits and demerits as dominate monster: she likes the power word line in general, but not so much the ethical implications of the particular spell (although power word kill is less open to abuse than dominate monster). Mass hold monster might seem more in line with V's character arc.

[Angelalex242]

Could counter that idea with...

Xykon told her the power she had while spliced wasn't really hers.

Wouldn't she want, then, to gain all the spells she had spliced, to prove to Xykon that 'this time, my power is all MINE!'

[Quartz]

I think V is more likely to take one of the spells to which he had access. In particular, Disjunction would be of particular use against Xykon. The most likely spells, I would suggest, are Bugsby's Crushing Hand and Prismatic Sphere. V has previously cast other Hand spells and also cast Prismatic Spray.

That said, Disjunction is of particular interest plot-wise as it allows the possibility of V using it against Redcloak, the spell backfiring, and V losing all spellcasting ability.

[Reathin]

That said, Disjunction is of particular interest plot-wise as it allows the possibility of V using it against Redcloak, the spell backfiring, and V losing all spellcasting ability.

Now this is an interesting thought. And very in keeping with V's learning humility and the idea that magic isn't the be-all-end-all.

Personally, I'm not really certain she'll ever hit 17th level though. Or if she does, it'll only happen once in comic, showing that she's really taken to heart the idea that you don't have to cast all your big spells all the time.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I don't think a spell would be Wish. I think a spell might be Meteor Swarm, but I don't know what the other would be.

[gallagher]

Well it won't be meteor swarm, as X previously stated that he has an item that makes him immune to it. V isn't stupid.

In fact, V has already invented spells before. I would bet on V creating a spell of a different energy type to inflict as much area damage to Xykon, Redcloak and MItD in one turn to make Roy's job easier getting to and shutting down Xykon

[konradknox]

MiTD is not gonna fight for Xykon. He is way too powerful and it would cause a TPK.

[Angelalex242]

Just because the head villain is immune to the spell is no reason not to have meteor swarm in the spellbook. Good reason to not PREPARE it if you know Xykon is personally going to be facing you that day, but it's quite useful for many other things. Like taking down small armies of NPCs.

Indeed, a wise wizard should have every spell in her spellbooks not explicitly forbidden to her.

Foresight's a great self buff. Shades and Weird can be fun.

[Itrogash]

Well it won't be meteor swarm, as X previously stated that he has an item that makes him immune to it. V isn't stupid.

In fact, V has already invented spells before. I would bet on V creating a spell of a different energy type to inflict as much area damage to Xykon, Redcloak and MItD in one turn to make Roy's job easier getting to and shutting down Xykon

It could be easily done with Energy Substitution feat or one of Archmage's High Arcana. I actually have hopes that V would take some Arhmage levels, it would suit him quite well with his policy of learning to control his power.

I wouldn't mind some Vaarsuvius's XXX Evocation spell though, mind me :smallwink:

[ReaderAt2046]

A point in favor of Crushing Hand: Liches have DR 15/magic and bludgeoning, so Crushing Hand would do a huge amount of "bonus" damage against Xykon. Also, learning Meteor Swarm could come in handy by letting V counterspell one of Xykon's primary attack spells.

[Killer Angel]

Could counter that idea with...

Xykon told her the power she had while spliced wasn't really hers.

Wouldn't she want, then, to gain all the spells she had spliced, to prove to Xykon that 'this time, my power is all MINE!'

V. is trying to atone for that, so I don't think he/she will indulge in such kind of prideful planning.

[Phoniex]

I vote for crushing hand or meteor swarm (so he can counter spell it which was a GREAT idea). But time stop does seem like another good option. But truthfully I doubt V will ever get to 9th level spells before the end of the story. I think sunburst is the best damage we are going to get against X. And while I do like mages disjunction, it solves far too many problems to allow in the OoTS game/story.

[Sunken Valley]

I doubt Rich will give him one.

[Rogar Demonblud]

The problem with trying to counterspell Xykon is that he can meteor swarm more times than V can have a counterspell available. It is at best a short term tactic.

[Phoniex]

The problem with trying to counterspell Xykon is that he can meteor swarm more times than V can have a counterspell available. It is at best a short term tactic.

Its classic PC strategy.. Think about it 1 evil enemy against 5-7 PC's. Right? But your playing a game with rules, such as everyone gets 1 standard/move/free action. So what happenes? The big evil has to have two things to make him a threat, 1) Big AOE spells (meteor swarm) which he can use to gain multiple hits with only 1 attack or 2)multiple minions to equalize the actions. Having the biggest and best spells in the game does not matter when they can just be countered. If the order can trade 1/6th of their actions for X's then they win big, because they have 5 free actions(even if V can only do that for 2-3 rounds think about how far ahead that would put the order). V with 9th lvl spells and the order against JUST X, would be a interesting fight! Its when redcloak comes in with summon monster 9, undead, and MitD that the order loses or is going to need help to win.

[Rogar Demonblud]

You forget Big X will also have lots of undead of his own around, plus his daily Overland Flight spell. So a couple of counterspells aren't that useful, given that likely the only one of the Order who can attack him without magic is Haley with her +5 Icy Burst longbow (and how much of that is negated because of undead immunities?).

[Keltest]

You forget Big X will also have lots of undead of his own around, plus his daily Overland Flight spell. So a couple of counterspells aren't that useful, given that likely the only one of the Order who can attack him without magic is Haley with her +5 Icy Burst longbow (and how much of that is negated because of undead immunities?).

When last we saw Team Evil, they were traveling by themselves. He could of course make more at the next gate, but he has to kill the things first, which takes time.

[Reddish Mage]

As for V's non-evocation spell, the theory excludes mage's disjunction (making it incompatible with the "Disjoin the Mantle" theory, which finds its support mainly in a certain reading of V's character arc and the comic's themes; good evidence), shapechange, and time stop. Of the remaining Core spells, anything from Enchantment seems likely. V has used dominate person and has expounded on the merits of dominate monster, but it may be excluded by V's character development. Power word kill has the same merits and demerits as dominate monster: she likes the power word line in general, but not so much the ethical implications of the particular spell (although power word kill is less open to abuse than dominate monster). Mass hold monster might seem more in line with V's character arc.

The "Disjoin the Mantle" theory has on its side that it would be a satisfying conclusion of V's character arc (with V sacrificing the magical power the pursuit of which caused so many problems), but the theme's being referred to are something vague like "humility" or "sacrifice," which I do not think is specific enough. The Disjunction theory has at best weak evidence since there is nothing specifically suggesting or leading to the conclusion it will happen. Also, against the theory is the fact is that it is a bit of a reach to say that Red Cloak would lose the knowledge of how to move the last Gate if the Mantle is destroyed (or would suddenly age 100 years or something of that nature), and the fact that it is quite possible Red Cloak will not end up on top in the final encounter when we are receiving a cluster-bomb of archvillains.



Since the Giant is totally against it, we know that V wouldn't learn Wish.

Where has the Giant stated he is against "it" (and what exactly is "it")? I'm not sure what the Giant has said, if anything, about Wish specifically or, for that matter, about 9th level spells.

I don't see why V couldn't learn Wish and the Giant can use that to play on some of the limitations of the spell. Wish can only be used to do a couple of listed actions or replicate spells of varying level range that is well below 9th (so V could get access to some cleric spells or those of a prohibitive school). If Wish is used to try to do something other than those it is by RAW "dangerous" and may lead to "undesirable fulfillment" or "partial fulfillment." Wish also has a high Xp cost.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Where has the Giant stated he is against "it" (and what exactly is "it")? I'm not sure what the Giant has said, if anything, about Wish specifically or, for that matter, about 9th level spells.

I know he doesn't like True Resurrection, but I think that that has less to do with it being a 9th level spell and more to do with it being very narrative breaking. I can't think of any other statements he's made on 9th level spells.

[Rogar Demonblud]

The fact that Wish (and Miracle) can be used to True Resurrect someone with the right phrasing probably drops it into the verboten category, along with so many other things that turn the climatic final battle with the archvillain into a yawn festival.

Odd, my spellcheck recognizes verboten, but not archvillain.

[zimmerwald1915]

The "Disjoin the Mantle" theory has on its side that it would be a satisfying conclusion of V's character arc (with V sacrificing the magical power the pursuit of which caused so many problems), but the theme's being referred to are something vague like "humility" or "sacrifice," which I do not think is specific enough. The Disjunction theory has at best weak evidence since there is nothing specifically suggesting or leading to the conclusion it will happen. Also, against the theory is the fact is that it is a bit of a reach to say that Red Cloak would lose the knowledge of how to move the last Gate if the Mantle is destroyed (or would suddenly age 100 years or something of that nature), and the fact that it is quite possible Red Cloak will not end up on top in the final encounter when we are receiving a cluster-bomb of archvillains.
"Sacrifice" is too strong a word, I think. It implies willful giving-up or at least knowledge of the possibility, but none of the Order knows the Crimson Mantle is an artifact. They have no reason to suspect that it is either, so they probably won't investigate the possibility. The only way they could reasonably learn the information is by Redcloak telling them, and he's not likely to do that. If V does end up disjoining the Mantle, it will be by accident, not because she tried to disjoin it knowing the possible consequences. That is, to me, the biggest strike against the theory. Unless she casts disjunction knowing the risks, V doesn't show growth by giving up her magic. At best she could show that she has grown by her reaction to losing her magic.

As for the objection that disjoining the Mantle doesn't actually hinder Redcloak, I agree, but I don't think that the people who espouse the "disjoin the Mantle" theory care all that much. As far as I can tell, they like the theory solely because it resolves V's character arc in a particular way, not because of any effect it will have on the main plot.


I don't see why V couldn't learn Wish and the Giant can use that to play on some of the limitations of the spell. Wish can only be used to do a couple of listed actions or replicate spells of varying level range that is well below 9th (so V could get access to some cleric spells or those of a prohibitive school).
Well, that's actually a problem right there. Wish would grant V the ability to replicate greater teleport.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

The fact that Wish (and Miracle) can be used to True Resurrect someone with the right phrasing probably drops it into the verboten category, along with so many other things that turn the climatic final battle with the archvillain into a yawn festival.

Odd, my spellcheck recognizes verboten, but not archvillain.
That's a good point. I didn't realize that when I made that post.


Well, that's actually a problem right there. Wish would grant V the ability to replicate greater teleport.

Or this. While Wish isn't horribly narrative breaking, it can be used to replicate spells that make it more difficult to create scenarios were Vaarsuvius fixes everything.

[Reddish Mage]

Well, that's actually a problem right there. Wish would grant V the ability to replicate greater teleport.

I don't see how this is a problem. If V had access to greater teleport right this minute the Order should be over by the last gate, but I thought the discussion was about the possibility of V getting particular 9th level spells sometime. Greater teleport is hardly game-breaking, and the ability to transport the party and others anywhere on this or any other plane might actually prove useful in keeping the plot moving, especially if things start getting crazy in the lead up to a climatic finish.

[Douglas]

Wish costs 5000 XP to cast. Even if V had it, it would be very far from the casual convenience of actually casting Greater Teleport.

[Phoniex]

I don't see how this is a problem. If V had access to greater teleport right this minute the Order should be over by the last gate, but I thought the discussion was about the possibility of V getting particular 9th level spells sometime. Greater teleport is hardly game-breaking, and the ability to transport the party and others anywhere on this or any other plane might actually prove useful in keeping the plot moving, especially if things start getting crazy in the lead up to a climatic finish.

So the problem with V getting teleport is quite simple a story problem. When playing D&D teleport fixes things, when telling a story it breaks things. Examples:When I'm a PC playing D&D I want a mage that can caste teleport because its just that good it makes the PC's lives much easier. Who needs to worry about random encounters from point A to B, guards around a castle, getting away when you can just teleport. Teleport makes PC's more survivable and gives the best mobility possible. Which is why V does not have it in the story of the order of the stick. Because it breaks narratives.. Look at the story when darth V was in action, he basically solved 4-5 major plot points in under 10 minutes. Now think about if V could always teleport, the story would have been over by comic 100, either X would have died or the order would have TPK'ed. Why? because 5 guys meet at a bar, buff up and teleport to the END of the story. Which is why V should never have the ability to teleport. Wish to me.. is just out.

[Anarion]

I think it depends on the significance of the spell in the narrative. If V is going to have a big on-screen moment showing off a 9th level spell, it will probably be flashy: meteor swarm, maybe a prismatic sphere or even a gate spell.

Casting disjunction already had a central moment, so unless there is some scene that parallels the one with the dragon, that is not likely to happen.

That said, I'm not sure V's expanded magic will even be a big story moment. It might just be a better Bugsby's Hand moment, or a dominate spell that we notice must have been dominate monster but isn't necessarily all that different from charming the worm.

[Quartz]

I'm probably alone, but I'd like to see both V and Durkon get Epic spells.

And you know what? I think they will, because then they will be able to use Redcloak's ritual to permanently seal off the Snarl.

[snowblizz]

And you know what? I think they will, because then they will be able to use Redcloak's ritual to permanently seal off the Snarl.
Two things.
1) "Redcloak's ritual" is only given to the bearer of the Crimson Mantle by the Dark One.
2) The ritual gives control of the gate to the Dark One, so whoever casts it is still only furthering The Plan.

So unless they want to become clerics of the Dark One and further whatever Plan the DO has I'd say not so much...

[Kish]

1) "Redcloak's ritual" is only given to the bearer of the Crimson Mantle by the Dark One.
2) The ritual gives control of the gate to the Dark One, so whoever casts it is still only furthering The Plan.
3) Redcloak's ritual doesn't require epic-level casters. Redcloak could have cast the divine half of it before he had access to sixth-level spells.
4) The actual requires-epic-level-casters spell that created the Gates did not permanently seal off the Snarl (hence, the plot); just how powerful are you predicting Vaarsuvius and Durkon will be by the end?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

3) Redcloak's ritual doesn't require epic-level casters. Redcloak could have cast the divine half of it before he had access to sixth-level spells.
4) The actual requires-epic-level-casters spell that created the Gates did not permanently seal off the Snarl (hence, the plot); just how powerful are you predicting Vaarsuvius and Durkon will be by the end?
5) The Arcane half requires Conjuration, a school which Vaarsuvius has banned.

[Anarion]

Two things.
1) "Redcloak's ritual" is only given to the bearer of the Crimson Mantle by the Dark One.
2) The ritual gives control of the gate to the Dark One, so whoever casts it is still only furthering The Plan.

So unless they want to become clerics of the Dark One and further whatever Plan the DO has I'd say not so much...

The narrative at this point has strongly implied that we don't know everything going on with the Snarl. Personally, I really doubt that sealing it away with no more exploration is how this thing is going to do down.

Also, as already noted, you're thinking of the wrong ritual, the epic one is the Lirian+Dorukan gate creation ritual.


5) The Arcane half requires Conjuration, a school which Vaarsuvius has banned.

That's the part that summons the gate to the plane of the Dark One's choosing, I believe. If, for some reason, V and Durkon do need to create new seals, I'd guess that it would be either transmutation or abjuration primary, perhaps with a bit of evocation mixed in.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

That's the part that summons the gate to the plane of the Dark One's choosing, I believe. If, for some reason, V and Durkon do need to create new seals, I'd guess that it would be either transmutation or abjuration primary, perhaps with a bit of evocation mixed in.

Probably. However, Quartz's point was about Redcloak's ritual, which was what I was addressing.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Actually, the most interesting theory I've seen about the sealing ritual is that it would require the souls of the only two people who know it to be bound to living hosts.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Actually, the most interesting theory I've seen about the sealing ritual is that it would require the souls of the only two people who know it to be bound to living hosts.

That would be an interesting development. Of course, freeing those two people would probably be very difficult, but if the Order were to somehow gain access to them...