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WaxyVincent
2007-02-15, 09:31 AM
I'm in Phoenix AZ and i'm looking for local people interested in joining up to do some boffing wars.
(Boffing = LARP style fighting, not the other kind of boffing)

if anyone is in my area and is interested then please drop me a line.

info on the where's and whens can be found at:
http://www.myspace.com/azboffer

Thanks for reading.

--------------------------------------------------------------
-Vincent
[email protected]

Penguinizer
2007-02-15, 09:33 AM
I got one, and the supplies to make a second.

WaxyVincent
2007-02-15, 09:37 AM
you got a boffer sword?
sweeeeeeet, a boffer already.
Suddenly i love this forum! LOL

Penguinizer
2007-02-15, 09:49 AM
It was an afterschool club :P

I never use it that much anymore.

Erloas
2007-02-15, 12:42 PM
If I'm not mistaken there is already a group of people doing that down at the SCA practice at Encanto park on wednesday nights. It doesn't actually have anything to do with the SCA, but they go down and fight there at the same time as the SCA practice.
I'm not sure if it is the same exact thing as what you are doing, but its close enough.
I haven't had a chance to go to the SCA in a while so I don't know if the other people are still out there doing it but I know the SCA still has its practices and thats much more fun anyway. Why hit someone with a foam sword when you can hit them with a wooden one?

WaxyVincent
2007-02-15, 07:08 PM
You're probrably talking about that group with kendo sticks.
ever been stabbed by one of those w/o the proper armor?
ever been wacked in the head by one?
ouch.

beside, i work wednesdays. infact, i work 13 hour grave shifts with only fridays, saturdays, and sundays off.

Erloas
2007-02-15, 07:16 PM
Well there is a group that has the kendo sticks, there is also a number of them running around with big foam things too.
Though I've also seen some actual boffer stuff there too, its usually what the SCA people let their kids do until their old enough to actually fight, usually <14 or so.

WaxyVincent
2007-02-15, 07:22 PM
Yes, i've been there. it's boffing and kendo mixed on the same battle field with jamie running the thing.

WaxyVincent
2007-02-16, 01:29 PM
http://tribes.tribe.net/boffing <-- no longer using.
http://myspace.com/azboffer <-- moved main website here (great response)

WaxyVincent
2007-02-22, 07:34 AM
I'm happy to say that i now have 6 positive yeses and about 13 maybes for showing up for the first meet tomarrow (friday). That's not a bad start. I'll constantly keep recuriting because there's nothing like having two armies charge at each other from across a battlefield.

-Vincent
http://www.myspace.com/azboffer

Arlanthe
2007-02-22, 08:56 AM
Yeah, I know of boffers in SCA terms. What kids can do before they join heavies. Kendo/light weapons isn't done in the SCA anymore.

Are you in the SCA? There are some great events in Arizona, you should check it out.

WaxyVincent
2007-02-26, 11:59 PM
SCA is an incorperated company.
i'm just in it for the fun.


" What kids can do before they join heavies"
actualy, we don't even allow kids unless their parent is physicaly at the park.
this is a more mature group.

and the diffrence between heavies and boffing is $$. boffers are alot cheaper than buying mock swords.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-02-27, 12:54 PM
I know there's a LARP who uses boffer swords called NERO who has a chapter in Arizona (although I don't happen to live there). You can check 'em out here. At least they have boffer fighting. Maybe some of 'em would be willing to moonlight with your boffer group.

WaxyVincent
2007-02-27, 06:38 PM
Thanks for the link. it doesn't work but google was good to me so i still found them.

Renrik
2007-02-27, 07:15 PM
Me and my friends here up north make boffers and such. It's fun. We have squad combat. Of curse, it's usually mismatched, because our avaliable fighters consist a guy who's very good with a polearm but tends to fail at everything else (me), a short guy that's be the best thing ever to use a weapon if he didn't run away every time the guy next to him dies (Brendan), a swordsman that fights so defensively by the time he attacks all of his allies are dead and we've surrounded him (Nathan), and a bunch of guys that are pretty much dagger-fodder (Jimmy, Cory, Alex, Carl, Derik, etc.)

The guys we fight in the SCA are a bit beter. A lot better, actually. In fact, they kill most of us. With the excpetion of me, Brendan, and Nathan, who, being SCA members, only get killed about half the time, and the rest of the time manage to either kill them, force them to retreat, or run faster than they can.

Man, I love the SCA. I swear it, someday soon my beloved Northsheild shall conquer those other pathetic excuses for kingdoms. We won indepedance from Midrealm, we can damn well beat some others!

Wehrkind
2007-02-28, 04:47 AM
SCA being an incorporated company is wholly irrelevant to everything. Othe than taxes and insurance...

Yay Northshield! I fought with you boys at Pennsic this last year. (Argent Lupe) Your queen is most gracious and lovely.

She also go my buddy in trouble with his fiance, who, upon seeing the favor your queen handed out, sniffed
"Yea some queen gave it to him."
"Honey, she gave them out to everyone who fought for them. Seriously."
"That just makes her a whore!"
Hilarity ensues for everyone but her.

Seriously though, you guys were great, we were very happy fight alongside you.

Erloas
2007-03-01, 03:47 PM
SCA is an incorperated company.
i'm just in it for the fun.


" What kids can do before they join heavies"
actualy, we don't even allow kids unless their parent is physicaly at the park.
this is a more mature group.

and the diffrence between heavies and boffing is $$. boffers are alot cheaper than buying mock swords.

SCA being a company really has no bearing on anything at all. Its not like anyone in the SCA is sitting around making money, they don't have interviews to join and take part in it. It is just a company for the advantages that gives them in the real world dealings they need to have. Its easier for a company to make a deal with the city to use parks on a re-occuring basis then it would be for just some random people. Its easier for the SCA to rent pieces of land for wars and other events. They can get cheaper rates on a lot of bulk items buying as a company then what individuals get. And while the big events such as wars do cost a decent amount to get in the charge covers a lot of overhead in hosting events like that and gives them money they use on smaller events throughout the rest of the year.

Pretty much every single person in the SCA is "just in it for the fun" (though everyone has different definitions of fun). Personally I started fighting almost 7 years ago now and I have paid little to nothing to continue to do it for the last couple years. Sure there are a lot of people that spend $500 on tents, take trips across the country for wars, spend hundreds on fabrics for clothing, $500 on helmets and all sorts on other pieces of armor. But it is by no means required.
My first set of armor included a helm for about $65, a basket-hilt for about $10, about $5 for some ratan for the weapon, and a little more for some leather straps and buckles. The rest of the stuff was made out of scrap plastic from barrels and other things around (I've heard of people using old trash cans, carpets and other unusual things like that). It might cost a decent amount to get some good stuff and to take part in every aspect of the SCA, but to just go out and fight every week can be done relatively cheaply. It might be a lot if you are 16 and don't have a job but pretty much anyone working regularly shouldn't have too hard of a time getting the basics required to fight. Not to mention if you talk to most people in the SCA most of them have old stuff they will lend to people to help them get started.

Not that there is anything wrong with boffers. I'm sure it is much cheaper then the SCA, but that doesn't mean the SCA is expensive. The SCA is as expensive as you are willing to let it be, if you want to spend piles of cash on it you can, but you can also get by with very little.

Swordguy
2007-03-02, 01:54 PM
There are 3 good reasons NOT to join the SCA (point: I fight in Midrealm)

1) (least important) There really are people in the SCA who will mentally grade you on how period your costume is, regardless of how long you've been doing reenacting or how much money/time/materials you have to spend. and they will NEVER let you forget wearing something that isn't in any way period. These people are more rare than they used to be, but they do exist.

2) Cost. Fighting in the SCA can be expensive. I always expect to spend $300 or so breaking in to a new hobby. I can spend more than that easily on just a helm. Fortunately, practically all shires have plenty of loaner gear to help new players out, so you can pick up armor over time.

3) (most important) You will learn to fight wrong if you only play in the SCA. There is a book that expresses this, by John Clements, called Medieval Swordsmanship. Granted, he's a d**k who bashes everything except his own personal system, but he raises a VERY good point in the essay entitled: "The Importance of Targeting the Lower Leg in Sparring" that is absolutely correct. Stuff about his book can be found here:
http://www.thearma.org/medsword.htm
Fighting in the SCA has no more relevance to actual combat than modern Olympic Fencing does. It has a strict and arbitrary set of rules that serve to protect the pet systems fat old guys have developed to protect their bad knees. As long as you look at it as a sport and simple exercise, you're gold. Anything else is a lie. if you'd like a further explaination of why the SCA fights wrong, ask in the "Real-world Weapons and Armor" thread, and we can all explain at great length and detail.

Erloas
2007-03-02, 03:05 PM
There are 3 good reasons NOT to join the SCA (point: I fight in Midrealm)

1) (least important) There really are people in the SCA who will mentally grade you on how period your costume is, regardless of how long you've been doing reenacting or how much money/time/materials you have to spend. and they will NEVER let you forget wearing something that isn't in any way period. These people are more rare than they used to be, but they do exist.
I don't remember meeting anyone like that here in AZ. I've heard plenty of poeple talk about the autenticity of things people do, but its not done so in a real negative way. Of course there is also the point that there are a lot of people in the SCA and you can, for the most part, avoid people you don't like.



2) Cost. Fighting in the SCA can be expensive. I always expect to spend $300 or so breaking in to a new hobby. I can spend more than that easily on just a helm. Fortunately, practically all shires have plenty of loaner gear to help new players out, so you can pick up armor over time.

The thing is, you can get into the SCA for $300 or less without too much trouble. So long as you are going with what works rather then the best stuff around. A beginning SCA person doesn't need high-grade full lenght stainless steel leggins and a $500 helmet, but they can spend that if they want to. You can say the same for any sport, you can go out and spend $1000 on skis and boots for snow skiing, that doesn't mean the option isn't there to spend $200 for some that will be more the sufficient for a beginer.



3) (most important) You will learn to fight wrong if you only play in the SCA. There is a book that expresses this, by John Clements, called Medieval Swordsmanship. Granted, he's a d**k who bashes everything except his own personal system, but he raises a VERY good point in the essay entitled: "The Importance of Targeting the Lower Leg in Sparring" that is absolutely correct. Stuff about his book can be found here:
http://www.thearma.org/medsword.htm
Fighting in the SCA has no more relevance to actual combat than modern Olympic Fencing does. It has a strict and arbitrary set of rules that serve to protect the pet systems fat old guys have developed to protect their bad knees. As long as you look at it as a sport and simple exercise, you're gold. Anything else is a lie. if you'd like a further explaination of why the SCA fights wrong, ask in the "Real-world Weapons and Armor" thread, and we can all explain at great length and detail.

The thing is, there really is no "real" way to fight. There was the way that people fought 400 years ago, but in the end it really doesn't matter because you will never be in a situation where "real" sword fighting will ever come up. There is also a lot of people then that fought without a lot of real training, what you could do and be successful vs other people without much experience is a lot different then what you need to be successful vs people that can practice all the time. The fighting developes a lot from when one mistake means you are dead to having one mistake be a learning experience. Why would you even need to develop a wrap shot if you can kill 99% of your enemies with a simple stab or slash? There is also the very real change in how people act when they know they aren't actually going to get hurt, people are going to be much less likely to try something risky or sacrificial if they know they will actually die from it. It would be interesting if we could grab some famous fighter from the past to face off against the top in the SCA and see who does better. SCA fighting might not be totally authentic but that doesn't mean it is any less effective.

As for the below the knees thing, I know that is a lot different then what happened really, but it really is just that we aren't actually trying to kill anyone. While you don't care if you blow someones knee out when you are going to kill them in a few seconds anyway its a lot different when it is a hobby. Although that really is what it all comes down to, it is a hobby, a sport, it tries to stay close to reality but is not actually trying to be reality.

Swordguy
2007-03-02, 03:42 PM
I don't remember meeting anyone like that here in AZ. I've heard plenty of poeple talk about the autenticity of things people do, but its not done so in a real negative way. Of course there is also the point that there are a lot of people in the SCA and you can, for the most part, avoid people you don't like.

Fair enough. They're out there, but certainly rarer and more difficult to find. Perhaps the ones I was running into at Pennsic on a daily basis in the late 90's have fallen by the wayside. I certainly hope so.



The thing is, you can get into the SCA for $300 or less without too much trouble. So long as you are going with what works rather then the best stuff around. A beginning SCA person doesn't need high-grade full lenght stainless steel leggins and a $500 helmet, but they can spend that if they want to. You can say the same for any sport, you can go out and spend $1000 on skis and boots for snow skiing, that doesn't mean the option isn't there to spend $200 for some that will be more the sufficient for a beginer.


Again, as I mentioned, most shires have loaner gear. If you're going to make a long-term hobby of it, as I have, then you'll spend more on quality stuff. No editorial there, just the fact that a good helm is in the $350-500 range.



The thing is, there really is no "real" way to fight. There was the way that people fought 400 years ago, but in the end it really doesn't matter because you will never be in a situation where "real" sword fighting will ever come up. There is also a lot of people then that fought without a lot of real training, what you could do and be successful vs other people without much experience is a lot different then what you need to be successful vs people that can practice all the time. The fighting developes a lot from when one mistake means you are dead to having one mistake be a learning experience. Why would you even need to develop a wrap shot if you can kill 99% of your enemies with a simple stab or slash? There is also the very real change in how people act when they know they aren't actually going to get hurt, people are going to be much less likely to try something risky or sacrificial if they know they will actually die from it. It would be interesting if we could grab some famous fighter from the past to face off against the top in the SCA and see who does better. SCA fighting might not be totally authentic but that doesn't mean it is any less effective.

As for the below the knees thing, I know that is a lot different then what happened really, but it really is just that we aren't actually trying to kill anyone. While you don't care if you blow someones knee out when you are going to kill them in a few seconds anyway its a lot different when it is a hobby. Although that really is what it all comes down to, it is a hobby, a sport, it tries to stay close to reality but is not actually trying to be reality.

Perhaps I should explain. When I was the heavy-weapons marshal for Unicorn shire (Barony of the Flaming Gryphon, Midrealm), I was instructed, in detail, to sell SCA combat to people as "historically accurate re-creational combat". That was a lie. For not agreeing to spread said lie, I was politely asked to resign as a marshal.

As for blowing out people's knees, frankly, you don't know what the hell you're talking about. Someone who is in shape and wears properly padded knee and lower leg protection will have next to no chance of having any sort of serious knee injury. I fight and study medieval weapons for a freaking living. I'm teaching a class on MS I.33 sword&buckler next weekend at the March Madness Stage Combat Workshop next weekend, for Ghu's sake! I've taken direct, full-strength shots with accurate steel replicas directly to the side of my locked knee to prove my point. The only thing that has ever been wrong with my knee was having a grenade go off near it during NCO school at Fort Benning, and that has not a bloody thing to do with hitting it with a sword/stick.

The SCA has a mania about protecting people's knees because a large number of people who participate in Heavy Combat (especially many of the "Old guard" SCA folks) are in fact fat, out of shape, and have bad knees from being fat and out of shape. The problem perpetuates itself. Here's a thought: if you aren't capable of meeting the physical requirements for a contact sport, don't play.

There are 3 things wrong with SCA combat: Not targeting the lower leg, using a rounded weapon instead of a shaped waster, and the prevalence of wrap shots. All of these distort the combat (which would be fine if people wouldn't do them) into something that is only vaguely recognizable as medieval combat.

Hell, if the SCA wold listen to anyone but themselves, they'd look at ARMA's padded wasters (not boffers at all), which are used for true, full-body combat sparring. Head to toe is perfectly legal, and the sole injury I've every heard of coming out of that system was someone's helm coming off from a face thrust (broken nose).

Dude, I fight in the SCA. That doesn't mean I'm a mindless SCA apologist. They have big, gaping blind spots in their system, and actively refuse to look at correcting them. That's simply the way it is. As long as you're fine with the holes, go for it. But make a bloody informed decision.

EDIT: And yes, there absolutely is a "real" way to fight. The various fechtbuchs show us how to do that, a fact painfully obvious to anyone who's bothered to research the matter. And the only resemblance the woodcuts therein to the SCA is the fact that both parties happen to be trying to hit each other.

Swordguy
2007-03-02, 03:47 PM
I know there's a LARP who uses boffer swords called NERO who has a chapter in Arizona (although I don't happen to live there). You can check 'em out here. At least they have boffer fighting. Maybe some of 'em would be willing to moonlight with your boffer group.

Oh, NERO is fun as heck too. Live-action, semi-contact D&D. The swords they use are insanely light and bouncy, but it's fun nonetheless.

Give them a shot!

WaxyVincent
2007-03-02, 05:11 PM
There are 3 basic reasons i prefer boffing over SCA or LARP:
1 - for the cost of one helm in SCA you can arm 30 people for bassic boffing. (and yes, some SCA may have loaner equip, but i'd be damned if i be a mooch.)
2 - SCA players tend to be condensending about other fencing or medieval - some forgive olempic foil, sabre and epee but many others to not even forgive those.
3 - keep it real with real contact and sportsmanship as opposed to imaginary RPG style lighting bolts.

Do not get me wrong.

SCA has done amazing things with turning reenactments into sports, but i'd perfer to watch them as opposed to joining them. I also cannot stand how redicoulessly severly they bash boffing as a kiddy sport while to me they seem to be obsessive.

There's nothing wrong with RPG- i've had fun with it for many years. but to me i perfer to keep it on the tabletop. http://youtube.com/watch?v=8ufaBKdY60w

Swordguy
2007-03-02, 05:18 PM
There are 3 basic reasons i prefer boffing over SCA or LARP:
1 - for the cost of one helm in SCA you can arm 30 people for bassic boffing. (and yes, some SCA may have loaner equip, but i'd be damned if i be a mooch.)
2 - SCA players tend to be condensending about other fencing or medieval - some forgive olempic foil, sabre and epee but many others to not even forgive those.
3 - keep it real with real contact and sportsmanship as opposed to imaginary RPG style lighting bolts.



Have you ever tried Ampguard? With the above mentions, you'd fit right in.

Renrik
2007-03-02, 07:01 PM
It's ture, the SCA has some major problems. I hate all the rules of conduct. Not being able to hit below the knees has lost me a good many bouts, and it annoys me. Why is it even banned? Beause someone cluld get hurt? No. I've been whacked in my shins a lot of times, and I'm OK. Because it's hard to defend your legs? So what? That should be extra incentive to go for the legs! Or is it just for the proverbial old men with bad knees? That's stupid. If you aren't physically fit for combat, you shouldn't be in combat. Leave it to those who are physically prepared for it. All in all, the SCA has way too many formality rules. For example, you can only atack someone in a 180 degree arch centered on their faces. Why can't you attack from behind? If they're stupid enough to turn their back on someone, they ought to be cut down. It's all too formalized. Usually, when I go to the SCA, I fight a few rules-governed bouts, then sneak off with a few friends to have less formal fights. Those are fun. Only enough rules to ensure that we don't cause eachother any serious or long-lasting injuries.

The thing I hate about the SCA boffers is not only that they're round, which is annoying as all hell, but that, being round, you have to mark the blade with tape. This annoys the hell out of me. With a regular sword, I never accidentally hit someone with the flat of the blade. With Boffers, though, you have to look at your sword blade as you're attacking, and I prefer to look at the place I intend to attack and at my opponent's weapon to see if he's going to parry.

Another major problem with the SCA is the lack of cultural cohesiveness. While it claims to be an authentic medeival experience, I see a a mix of Vikings, English or French styles, a few Romans, an annoying amount fo Japanese and a lesser amount of Chinese styles, and a few others (myself dressed as an Irish or Scottish celt of the 10th through 14th centuries (I am not a big stickler for historical accuracy in costuming. I wear a tartan in the Irish style, with a scottish Tam-o-shanter. SoI look a bit like each, all in all.), mixed in with the lot. So, basically, I go up to someone, and I'm looking like I've described, and I greet them, and it turns out they're wearing a some kind of male version of a kimono, and are pretending to be a samurai. So I get away from them and their horrible idea of what a samurai should be, and go talk to someone else, who turns out to be dressed as an English nobleman, so, being Irish, I have to either sell out to him or fight him tot he death. Leaving an Enlighman's corse behind, I go over to another group of people to find it mostly made up, to my horror, of Romans. So I get out before they think I'm Vercingetorix and say "the hell with it", and go hang out with the Vikings, who at least are from the Dark Ages, which is good (and, being a son of the clan Dubh Ghall, I get alog just fine wit them, and together we go off and try to kill the descendants of Brain Boru for what he did to us at the Battle of Clontarf.) All in all, it's hectic.

My last complaint about the SCA is the lack of military cohesiveness when they go to war with eachother. I've seen the SCA at war. The troops break ranks and fight as individuals, not forming ranks or having cohesive assaults. Instead, they just seem to go wherever the worst fighting is and start hacking there. I'd like to see some SCA mass combat in which the guys go out there and form a miniature version of a Macedonian phalanx, a Roman tortoise, or a Scottish poltron. I'd like to see some coordinated, intelligent tactics. That's the reason Northsheild keeps on having so much trouble militarily. We're often outnumbered, and we fight the same way our opponents do. If we want to win, we'd better start learning to fight as a group.

That said, I still like the SCA. There are certain redeeming qualities about it.

Erloas
2007-03-02, 08:21 PM
Fair enough. They're out there, but certainly rarer and more difficult to find. Perhaps the ones I was running into at Pennsic on a daily basis in the late 90's have fallen by the wayside. I certainly hope so.

I've heard the problem is a lot worse in some areas then others. Personally I've never had a problem with it where I am, but I have heard it mentioned in some places.



Again, as I mentioned, most shires have loaner gear. If you're going to make a long-term hobby of it, as I have, then you'll spend more on quality stuff. No editorial there, just the fact that a good helm is in the $350-500 range.



Again, as I mentioned, most shires have loaner gear. If you're going to make a long-term hobby of it, as I have, then you'll spend more on quality stuff. No editorial there, just the fact that a good helm is in the $350-500 range.

I'm not arguing that it can't be an expensive hobby, because it very much can be. All I was saying is that breaking into the hobby can be done fairly cheap. Sure a good helm is 350+ but that doesn't mean you can get a safe and effective helm for $65, since long term hobby costs are not the same as breaking into the hobby costs. Don't let a personal bias of having to have good over having to have what works discourage others.


(and yes, some SCA may have loaner equip, but i'd be damned if i be a mooch.)
As long as you aren't going up and asking people you hardly know for stuff it is hardly mooching. Many groups keep around older armor simply to lend to other people, if they are new, their old equipment broke and they haven't got to replace it yet, and similiar reasons, so they are keeping the stuff around for just such occasions. As long as you use it until you know if you want to keep fighting and take the effort to get yourself the stuff as you can then no one would consider it mooching.



Perhaps I should explain. When I was the heavy-weapons marshal for Unicorn shire (Barony of the Flaming Gryphon, Midrealm), I was instructed, in detail, to sell SCA combat to people as "historically accurate re-creational combat". That was a lie. For not agreeing to spread said lie, I was politely asked to resign as a marshal.
This again probably varies betwen places. The most I've heard about the combat is that it is mostly accurate, but I've never heard anyone try to claim that it is completely accurate. I know this idea varries between people too, but I've always got the impression that the SCA isn't trying to re-create history so much as bring certain historical aspects to the present.



As for blowing out people's knees, frankly, you don't know what the hell you're talking about. Someone who is in shape and wears properly padded knee and lower leg protection will have next to no chance of having any sort of serious knee injury. I fight and study medieval weapons for a freaking living. I'm teaching a class on MS I.33 sword&buckler next weekend at the March Madness Stage Combat Workshop next weekend, for Ghu's sake! I've taken direct, full-strength shots with accurate steel replicas directly to the side of my locked knee to prove my point. The only thing that has ever been wrong with my knee was having a grenade go off near it during NCO school at Fort Benning, and that has not a bloody thing to do with hitting it with a sword/stick.

Well there is a big different between someone that is making a living out of this sort of thing then what most people are able to do. The one thing your demonstration doesn't take into account though is all the 1000s of different situations that someone could be in when they get hit, it doesn't take into account the long term issues with it. It might not be an issue with one hit, or over the corse of a year or two but even the best athlete could have issues with it later on in life. Even football players (not all of them, but a lot of them) are in amazingly good shape but that doesn't stop them from getting hurt fairly regularly. Its not worth the potential problems down the line for a hobby. I would hate to know in 20 years that I need lots of knee surgery because of a hobby, and to know that it could have been greatly reduce if they had taken a few safety measures for the sake of a minor amound of realism. Sure its a trade off, but it it is one that is highly worth it IMO. People still need to get up and go to work the next day, its not like a professional sport where they make a lot of money and have professional trainers and doctors on call all the time to check out and reduce every possibly injury that might happen.




There are 3 things wrong with SCA combat: Not targeting the lower leg, using a rounded weapon instead of a shaped waster, and the prevalence of wrap shots. All of these distort the combat (which would be fine if people wouldn't do them) into something that is only vaguely recognizable as medieval combat.

Hell, if the SCA wold listen to anyone but themselves, they'd look at ARMA's padded wasters (not boffers at all), which are used for true, full-body combat sparring. Head to toe is perfectly legal, and the sole injury I've every heard of coming out of that system was someone's helm coming off from a face thrust (broken nose).
I admit I don't know much about other system. The reasons they use the weapons they use are fairly clear though. If you get a skinny weapon its much easier to accidently go into a face grill, which of course could be fixed by making everyone in the SCA change their helms. I also don't know the cost comparisions between them, but ratan is fairly practical and rather cheap. There might be better but again this is a hobby and not a job, and practical has to take presendence in some situations. I know a lot of people locally that are always looking into new sorts of things, some areas might not be as open to different things though.
As for the wrap shots, I have heard a little bit about that, no real documented proof that they were used ever. They do seem to be perfectly capable of dealing sufficient force though, so it would seem that the only reason they weren't used is that there wasn't a need for them in historical combat. While this might take away from the "authentic" medieval combat I feel it is more of a part of the natural progression of combat over time. I'm sure the traditional asian martial arts have also progressed over time as they have learned how to counter what used to be effective, I see this as the same sort of thing.



Dude, I fight in the SCA. That doesn't mean I'm a mindless SCA apologist. They have big, gaping blind spots in their system, and actively refuse to look at correcting them. That's simply the way it is. As long as you're fine with the holes, go for it. But make a bloody informed decision.

EDIT: And yes, there absolutely is a "real" way to fight. The various fechtbuchs show us how to do that, a fact painfully obvious to anyone who's bothered to research the matter. And the only resemblance the woodcuts therein to the SCA is the fact that both parties happen to be trying to hit each other.
At least in the context of this thread though, the realistic authenticity of the SCA wasn't really ever a huge deal. But the main point was that unless you really care it is mostly irrelievent that the SCA isn't "real" combat because "real" combat doesn't exist outside of the group doing it. Its not like saying driving a car in a game isn't like driving a car in real life, because thats the sort of thing you will actually do, so letting someone know that just because they can drive a car in a game doesn't mean they can drive a car in real life makes sense, its a reasonable warning. Its nothing but a fluff complaint in a setting like the SCA though.



Another major problem with the SCA is the lack of cultural cohesiveness. While it claims to be an authentic medeival experience, I see a a mix of Vikings, English or French styles, a few Romans, an annoying amount fo Japanese and a lesser amount of Chinese styles, and a few others (myself dressed as an Irish or Scottish celt of the 10th through 14th centuries (I am not a big stickler for historical accuracy in costuming. I wear a tartan in the Irish style, with a scottish Tam-o-shanter. SoI look a bit like each, all in all.), mixed in with the lot. So, basically, I go up to someone, and I'm looking like I've described, and I greet them, and it turns out they're wearing a some kind of male version of a kimono, and are pretending to be a samurai. So I get away from them and their horrible idea of what a samurai should be, and go talk to someone else, who turns out to be dressed as an English nobleman, so, being Irish, I have to either sell out to him or fight him tot he death. Leaving an Enlighman's corse behind, I go over to another group of people to find it mostly made up, to my horror, of Romans. So I get out before they think I'm Vercingetorix and say "the hell with it", and go hang out with the Vikings, who at least are from the Dark Ages, which is good (and, being a son of the clan Dubh Ghall, I get alog just fine wit them, and together we go off and try to kill the descendants of Brain Boru for what he did to us at the Battle of Clontarf.) All in all, it's hectic.
There has been no claim that the SCA was only from the Dark Ages, the SCA covers something like 1000 years of time and it does include many different eras of history that include empires and cultures that were never around at the same time. What do you expect though, for the SCA to decide that everyone that takes part can only research and be part of one specific culture in history so that everything matchs up with what was really around. How would you like the SCA if they said you couldn't be irish at all and had to be roman because that was the culture they picked for everyone to be. Or that you don't get to camp with your friends, but you are instead forced to camp with other people that picked your culture, even if you've never meet them before.
I've always heard the SCA described as the middle ages as they should have been, rather then how they actually were. They make no pretenses about the fact that a real fight would have had 100s of archers and the SCA has very few. They don't expect 95% of the people there to act like pesants and serve the nobles every whim.

As for the military cohessiveness. Well I can't really argue with that, it is pretty much just a cluster fk. There are however some groups that do a very good job. Again though it comes down to real life though. Most places would be hard pressed to find 50 fighters to go out and practice together all the time and drill and do all the sorts of things that a real military group would do. Its not like you have to/get to spend 6 months drilling every day like a boot camp.
As for the line of site rule, that again is just to make sure people aren't unnecessarily exposed to a high chance of getting hit. As you know full well (or at least should) there is still death from behind which serves exactly the same purpose but is safer. If someone turns away from you, you can still kill them without issue, but thats different then just bashing someone that had no idea you were there, thats just asking to get people hurt.


I'm not saying that the SCA is perfect, but I take a very practical approach to it. Going to war and battling was never a hobby sort of thing so if you want to turn it into one there are certain practical things that need to be done. It is something people do for fun, and that is the most important part, though some people loose that idea along the way.

WaxyVincent
2007-03-02, 09:56 PM
ok, i read a reply and a half. now i must ask.... does
anyone read ALL of that? it's a lot of typing and,
though reading is good for you, staring at a monitor
for so long is not. LOL

I'm not going to sit and debate the finer points of
SCA, SCP, Kendo, Rennisanse organizations, or boffing.

I have a boffing group.
it's small but growing pretty steady.
I'm looking for more players.
If you're local then drop me a line.

-Vincent