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elliott20
2007-02-15, 10:20 AM
So I just bought ToB sometime last week and I finally got around to reading it yesterday thanks to the snow day I had.

I like the system and it's got so much flair to it. but my problem is I felt that ToB still leaves the core non-casters out in the cold on their own in terms of power because, well, these powers were written specifically just for the classes for ToB alone, me thinks.

Well, okay, there are stuff in there in how it applies to non-martial adept characters. Basically, they are treated as if they're going up at half the rate of the other martial adepts, but in addition to it they have to expend a feat to learn a single move, a feat to learn a stance, and so on. This means that in the end, a fighter 20 is not going to measure up to a warblade 20 simply because while a fighter can learn to do what he does, said fighter would have to sacrifice a lot to be on even footing with the warblade.

And the one class that actually needs the boost the most, i.e. monks, who are the original martial arts characters, have been left out of mention in the book entirely.

Maybe I'm just not seeing this the right way, but I don't quite feel that the ToB classes are that well balanced against the core non-casters.

So, my question is, how did you manage to make the ToB material mesh well with the core?

Darrin
2007-02-15, 10:41 AM
And the one class that actually needs the boost the most, i.e. monks, who are the original martial arts characters, have been left out of mention in the book entirely.

Maybe I'm just not seeing this the right way, but I don't quite feel that the ToB classes are that well balanced against the core non-casters.

They're not. The book was actually an attempt to balance the "smash stuff" classes with the "cast stuff" classes, and in this regard the consensus seems to be that the gap between fighter-types and spellcasters has been narrowed significantly. But yes, it leaves the original fighters/monks/barbarians in the dust. The consensus there seems to be, "Lost Cause, just wash your hands of 'em and walk away".



So, my question is, how did you manage to make the ToB material mesh well with the core?

Replace the core fighting classes with ToB classes:

Fighter = Warblade
Monk = Swordsage
Paladin = Crusader
Barbarian = Warblade (tweaked a bit to switch the Int focus to another stat, maybe Cha)

Greendevilman
2007-02-15, 10:53 AM
They don't seem to totally overshadow the core classes as much as you would expect in actual practice, but yeah they weren't designed with the Fighter in mind as a real benchmark. Which is good because as Darrin says, the core melee oriented classes are generally quite weak. Honestly they quite possibly don't go far enough with ToB. The core classes still work with ToB as multiclass options (I've had Warblades with Fighter levels) especially because. So yes someone who wants to play a straight core melee class may end up feeling a bit left behind as even if they arn't notably less powerful ToB classes just have so many more options that they're way more *fun* to play. But I'm honestly ok with that. The physical classes really needed a boost and just because WotC screwed the pooch with classes like Fighter shouldn't doom anyone who doesn't want to be a full caster to a hideously underpowered and dull existance. I'd love Tome of Battle even if it didn't increase the mid to endgame power of the fighting classes simply because it provides the people who play warrior types something more interesting to do than charging and full attacking plus whatever their one narrow tactical shtick of choice was.

Also, because of how initiator level works its pretty easy to add ToB into a pre-existing campaign since you can just let the melee guys start taking levels of the ToB classes (possibly waiving xp penalties).

Fax Celestis
2007-02-15, 10:58 AM
You can also use alternative progressions for the non-ToB meleers. Such as this. (http://corporation.walagata.com/fax/wiki/index.php/Tome_of_Battle_Core_Class_Update)

elliott20
2007-02-15, 11:01 AM
well, I personally agree with the assessments you guys have made. It's just that when I first bought the book, I was half expecting this to be more of a suppliment for the combat melee characters to boost their powers so they match up a little better against the casters. So, when I realized that these were classes of their own I was kind of taken by surprise.

elliott20
2007-02-15, 05:07 PM
You can also use alternative progressions for the non-ToB meleers. Such as this. (http://corporation.walagata.com/fax/wiki/index.php/Tome_of_Battle_Core_Class_Update)
I like this idea. what is this, a wiki for D&D stuff?

Fax Celestis
2007-02-15, 05:31 PM
I like this idea. what is this, a wiki for D&D stuff?

My wiki, full of all my homebrews.