SRD Cleric vs. Cloistered Cleric

[DrummingDM]

How balanced is the Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric) up against the standard SRD Cleric? I know the general consensus is that the cleric is overpowered when in the hands of a powergamer...but my group is anything but a powergaming group. I just want to make sure the player interested in the Cloistered Cleric variant isn't going to be wishing they'd gone the standard SRD route.

My chief concern is the Cloistered Cleric gives up heavy and medium armor proficiency, and drops his hit die to d6...and the only real benefit he gets in return is access to the knowledge domain. Would granting additional domain bonus spells be out of line for the Cloistered Cleric, or be too much? Would extra domain spells be a fair trade if the cleric's HD were further reduced to d4?

[Ikkitosen]

Cloistered Clerics are fine - they can still use Divine Power to get fighter BAB and +6 strength, they're just a bit more squishy. A good power redressing really.

Like any low armour low HD type your player will need decent con and dex, but since they need only one primary stat - wis - they should be able to do that no problem.

[DrummingDM]

Cloistered Clerics are fine - they can still use Divine Power to get fighter BAB and +6 strength, they're just a bit more squishy. A good power redressing really.Well, that's well and good, but the point of the cloistered cleric seems to be that they're NOT melee based in the least. Or at least shouldn't be. They're more like divine wizards, as I see it...


Like any low armour low HD type your player will need decent con and dex, but since they need only one primary stat - wis - they should be able to do that no problem. Agreed. They don't need to worry about STR in the least, but CHA would still be nice for Turn Undead.

[Fako]

He lowers his fair BAB (+3/4) to poor (+1/2), in addition to getting less armor and health. In exchange, he gains the ability to make literally any knowledge check he wishes (via the Lore ability). He also gains more skill points and adds some very useful spells to his spell list (such as Identify).

If your cleric doesn't like to attack his enemies, then this variant will work very well for him. Otherwise, it will be frustrating for him when he tries to enter melee (which the SRD Cleric can do) and gets torn apart. His bonus abilities make him much more useful outside of combat though, so the trade off seems fair.

Rather than allowing him to get more domain slots, one thing you could do is instead allow him to pick one domain that he can prepare in his normal spell slots. It normally isn't a good idea to add more spell slots to casters, even in exchange for health. If they get enough spells, they can simply use some of those extra spells to prepare a Wall of Force between him and the enemy, thereby completely ignoring the fact that he's getting less health.

That's my two cents. Take them as you will...I think I got a bit redundant...
~Fako

[kamikasei]

He doesn't just gain access to the Knowledge domain, but extra skill points and the equivalent of Bardic Lore. Essentially you're trading effectiveness in combat for effectiveness outside of combat - which isn't necessarily a bad trade, since if you use the PHB cleric as a support caster anyway, the cloistered variant is about as good in that role. It depends on your players and how they operate - a team with a cloistered cleric can be a good deal more knowledgeable than one with a standard cleric, with cleric, wizard and rogue able to cover a wide range of skills between them - so your out-of-combat play could be considerably enriched.

[DrummingDM]

I had forgotten about the Lore ability. That does balance things out significantly.

[Ikkitosen]

Cloistered Clerics might not SEEM melee based but they still get access to all of the clerical buff spells (Divine Favour, Divine Power, Righteous Might) so they're what...2-3 points of AC (chain shirt vs. plate inc. dex bonuses) and 1 hp/level more squishy than a normal cleric? That's hardly much of a problem.

And as mentioned, they get more, useful abilities too.

[Woot Spitum]

At high levels, I can see this working, but what about levels one through five? The standard cleric is already not that fun to use at low levels, it seems to me that the cloistered cleric would be even worse. This isn't an MMO where you can be casting buff spells almost constantly and using weak blasty spells the rest of the time. Even in MMO's such characters are usually decent melee fighters at low levels, with their melee skills tapering off as they get stronger. I think the base attack should be unchanged till you reach level five, then let the low BA kick in. Maybe limit the types of weapons a cleric can wield, and limit them to the mundane versions.

[Fako]

At high levels, I can see this working, but what about levels one through five? The standard cleric is already not that fun to use at low levels, it seems to me that the cloistered cleric would be even worse. This isn't an MMO where you can be casting buff spells almost constantly and using weak blasty spells the rest of the time. Even in MMO's such characters are usually decent melee fighters at low levels, with their melee skills tapering off as they get stronger. I think the base attack should be unchanged till you reach level five, then let the low BA kick in. Maybe limit the types of weapons a cleric can wield, and limit them to the mundane versions.

While it is true that the Cloistered Cleric can't participate in combat very well, he trades his combat prowess for skill abilities.

As for the idea of tapering his BAB, that would make for a very confusing prgression...

[Woot Spitum]

While it is true that the Cloistered Cleric can't participate in combat very well, he trades his combat prowess for skill abilities.

As for the idea of tapering his BAB, that would make for a very confusing prgression...

But at low levels, those won't be as useful. The point is, to give people a reason to play a cleric from level one (which is probably responsible for the whole overpowed cleric thing in the first place). And if you play a combat-heavy campaign...

[ZekeArgo]

But at low levels, those won't be as useful. The point is, to give people a reason to play a cleric from level one (which is probably responsible for the whole overpowed cleric thing in the first place). And if you play a combat-heavy campaign...

I really don't see the point. There is plenty of things for the cleric to do at level 1 spellcasting-wise, just as there is plenty for a wizard to do. And no I don't mean being a heal-bitch.

Bane, Cause Fear, Command, Divine Favor, Doom, Entropic Shield, Magic Stone, Magic Weapon, Sanctuary, Shield of Faith, and Summon Monster 1 are *all* viable right from the start. And thats without going into 2nd level spells at 3rd level.

[Woot Spitum]

I really don't see the point. There is plenty of things for the cleric to do at level 1 spellcasting-wise, just as there is plenty for a wizard to do. And no I don't mean being a heal-bitch.

Bane, Cause Fear, Command, Divine Favor, Doom, Entropic Shield, Magic Stone, Magic Weapon, Sanctuary, Shield of Faith, and Summon Monster 1 are *all* viable right from the start. And thats without going into 2nd level spells at 3rd level.

I'm not arguing that there is nothing you can do at low levels, but that you don't have many uses of those spells. Few spell uses translates into a lot of rounds standing around doing nothing. I just want to have something to do until I get to level five and can cast third level spells at which point I won't mind the low BA.

[Fax Celestis]

I'm not arguing that there is nothing you can do at low levels, but that you don't have many uses of those spells. Few spell uses translates into a lot of rounds standing around doing nothing.

No, it translates into whipping out your crossbow.

[Merlin the Tuna]

Cloistered Clerics might not SEEM melee based but they still get access to all of the clerical buff spells (Divine Favour, Divine Power, Righteous Might) so they're what...2-3 points of AC (chain shirt vs. plate inc. dex bonuses)You're missing a major thing here -- the Cloistered Cleric actually has to invest in dexterity, whereas the standard Cleric does not. Having to invest there means that he's likely to skip out on a bit of strength and constitution compared to the normal Cleric as well. He ends up considerably worse-off in melee.

Generally, the Cloistered Cleric does do a fair amount of hitting CoDzilla with a shrink ray, though it certainly doesn't stomp the monster out. He's still got the spells to become a crusher, but he needs them more now, and the end result isn't quite as daunting. It does make the Cleric a bit more of a caster-type and a bit less of a crusher-type, if that's the kind of flavor you're looking for.

[lared]

Cloistered cleric is fine. Just play like a wizard, except with divine rather than arcane spells. And really, if your group plays with spell compendium, divine magic is only marginally worse than arcane magic for sheer offensive power. Considering that the poor BaB is negated by the awesome cleric buffs, I'd say cloistered cleric is a worthy CoDzilla.

[Woot Spitum]

No, it translates into whipping out your crossbow.

And missing...and missing...and missing (sorry, I've had some pretty bad experiences with non-full base attack ranged fighting).

[Fax Celestis]

And missing...and missing...and missing (sorry, I've had some pretty bad experiences with non-full base attack ranged fighting).

Uh, Cloistered Clerics, due to lower overall AC, should be boosting their Dex, which translates to better ranged combat.

Conversely, take Zen Archery.

[Josh Inno]

The bardic knowledge and skill points do help.

I'd say the best thing to do ahead of time is discuss with your players and decide on the type of campaign. Combat heavy? RP heavy?

In my current eberon campaign or an Arcanus one I might play a cloistered cleric. But when it comes to the home game home campaign setting my step sis and her BF cooked up, I would not sacrifice any combat ability at all if I could help it, for the simple reason that everyone ELSE is over powered, and thus the DM throws higher challenge ratings at us, and there's very little intrigue/need for knowledge.

[MrNexx]

Cloistered Cleric + Magic + Rune domains.

Use Wizard Items. Scribe Scroll for free. All knowledge skills. What wizard?

[Skyserpent]

I think the REAL question would be Cloistered Cleric vs. Archivist...

[Vance_Nevada]

Six skill points per level is quite the bonus, on par with the Bard and Ranger, and approaching the Rogue.

Cloistered Clerics aren't as good at melee stomping as regular Clerics, but they aren't supposed to be. They're supposed to be the knowledge-monkeys who don't get out much.

Compare them, particularly at early levels, to a Bard. You get more spells and better healing in exchange for having no Inspire Courage. You'll end up in a support role, yes, but some of the classes are support roles.

[Turcano]

I know the general consensus is that the cleric is overpowered when in the hands of a powergamer...but my group is anything but a powergaming group. I just want to make sure the player interested in the Cloistered Cleric variant isn't going to be wishing they'd gone the standard SRD route.

Cloistered clerics are usually only considered overpowered in the context of gestalt scenarios, since the other class usually compensates for the cloistered cleric's weakened combat variables while retaining its added benefits. In a normal game, it really comes down to whether the cleric intends on seeing much front-line melee combat; if the cleric tends to hang back in a fight, cloistered cleric is a good idea. If the cleric is slugging it out alongside the fighter, stick with the core version.

[Miles Invictus]

Quick question: The SRD text for the Cloistered Cleric says its class skill list "includes" Decipher Script, Speak Language, and all Knowledge skills. Does that mean those are the only skills they get, or do they get those skills in addition to the standard cleric's skills?

[Ikkitosen]

They're added to the normal list - otherwise they wouldn't get Spellcraft!

[Miles Invictus]

Thanks. The other entries in the SRD specifically say "This class variant has the normal class list" or "This variant replaces XXX with YYY", hence my confusion.

[Arceliar]

One feat and they're in mithral full plate.

At least we're taking a feat away from CoDzilla. And 1 hp/level. Clerics will get around the base attack problem pretty easy, but, meh. It's a start.

I also like the druid variant near the bottom of the page. It nerfs the crap out of them, at least as far as Wild Shape abuse goes (as it takes it away from them).

[Fax Celestis]

One feat and they're in mithral full plate.

At least we're taking a feat away from CoDzilla. And 1 hp/level. Clerics will get around the base attack problem pretty easy, but, meh. It's a start.

I also like the druid variant near the bottom of the page. It nerfs the crap out of them, at least as far as Wild Shape abuse goes (as it takes it away from them).

Honestly, the PHB-II Shapeshift variant is better, since it still keeps the idea of wild shape without its terrible brokenness.

[broderickdruce]

One feat and they're in mithral full plate.

At least we're taking a feat away from CoDzilla. And 1 hp/level. Clerics will get around the base attack problem pretty easy, but, meh. It's a start.

I also like the druid variant near the bottom of the page. It nerfs the crap out of them, at least as far as Wild Shape abuse goes (as it takes it away from them).

interesting side note, i'm just about to start in a gestalt game and i'm being allowed to use both of these variants. I prefer them to the
phb versions, i just find that they are more fun.

[Raool]

Silly question here. Where can I find the variant character classes in released books ?

[broderickdruce]

Most are in the Unearthed Arcana, the ones at the very bottom I don't know.

[Fax Celestis]

Most are in the Unearthed Arcana, the ones at the very bottom I don't know.

They are also from UA.

[Raool]

Thanks. Now I have a reason to read it. :)

[broderickdruce]

They are also from UA.

Thats what I thought but when I looked I couldn't see them, must be going blind in my old age.

If you don't feel like going out to get the book or borrowing from a friend you can just look them up on the SRD.
http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/variantClasses.htm

[Fax Celestis]

Thats what I thought but when I looked I couldn't see them, must be going blind in my old age.

If you don't feel like going out to get the book or borrowing from a friend you can just look them up on the SRD.
http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/variantClasses.htm

They're listed after all the other classes, in a separate variants section, so it's a little strange.

[Diggorian]

I'm making the cloister cleric the default cleric class, calling them "Priests" too as a 2nd ed homage. They're flavor fits better in my world were holy wars arent that common.

PHB clerics can be for those devotees of warrior gods.