XP for fleeing enemies

[Rumo]

Hi,

I have a question regarding XP for fleeing enemies. From what I've learned, they are treated like defeated enemies, XP-wise. In the current campaign we had three relevant cases:

1. We shoot at orcs on the other side of a bridge, they shoot back. When he realizes that he is outnumbered, the lust one flees into a cave exit.

2. Big fight against a bunch of orcs. Their chieftain who has massive life flees in an injured state. He seeks refuge in the "boss room" where an ogre, his two wolf pets, and 4 more orcs are with him. Soon after we break into this room and manage not to die, but instead kill off all of the inhabitants. (Incidentally the same orc chieftain was the last survivor and almost managed to flee again, but we finally caught and killed him.)

3. Three Orc Shamans, we set the room in fire with the help of a Web spell. Two Shamans die in the flames, the third flees, and thanks to the web we cannot follow.

It seems to me that 1 and 3 are fairly clear, we win the battle and gain XP for every participant. 2 seems a bit trickier to me, because in the second battle the Orc was wounded already, so I can imagine he might count a bit less, XP-wise?

[Red Fel]

Technically speaking, XP isn't awarded per enemy, but per encounter. The enemies, whether they survive or not, dictate the difficulty (and by extension, the XP award) of the overall encounter. That said, the DM might, in his discretion, award extra XP for clever solutions, or for a "clean sweep" of all enemies.

Instead of awarding or not awarding XP based on whether an enemy flees, I would use the fleeing enemy as a potential trigger for the next encounter. Either he brings back more baddies (which means another combat), or he returns later cowering (which means a diplomacy encounter), or perhaps he sets up a series of traps behind him (skill check encounter).

With regard to your specific examples, I agree that you get full XP in scenarios 1 and 3. I would argue that, in scenario 2, you get full XP for the first encounter, and that same orc might grant XP for the second encounter, assuming he contributed. Basically, if he contributed to both encounters, he counts twice, because the orc himself is not the source of the XP; rather, it's the difficulty of the encounter that dictates XP earned, and the orc contributes to that difficulty.

[Psyren]

Whether the enemy runs away, surrenders or is killed, they were part of the encounter. So long as the encounter is won, the party gets full exp.

Awarding XP per enemy slain is a bad idea. It rewards your party for being bloodthirsty rather than being tactical, and punishes them for roleplay-heavy activities like showing mercy and taking prisoners.

[Rumo]

Technically speaking, XP isn't awarded per enemy, but per encounter. The enemies, whether they survive or not, dictate the difficulty (and by extension, the XP award) of the overall encounter. That said, the DM might, in his discretion, award extra XP for clever solutions, or for a "clean sweep" of all enemies.

Instead of awarding or not awarding XP based on whether an enemy flees, I would use the fleeing enemy as a potential trigger for the next encounter. Either he brings back more baddies (which means another combat), or he returns later cowering (which means a diplomacy encounter), or perhaps he sets up a series of traps behind him (skill check encounter).

With regard to your specific examples, I agree that you get full XP in scenarios 1 and 3. I would argue that, in scenario 2, you get full XP for the first encounter, and that same orc might grant XP for the second encounter, assuming he contributed. Basically, if he contributed to both encounters, he counts twice, because the orc himself is not the source of the XP; rather, it's the difficulty of the encounter that dictates XP earned, and the orc contributes to that difficulty.

Thanks for the explanation! The Orc Chieftain actually was the hardest kill in both combats. In the first one he almost butchered our Fighter, after which the other rather fragile characters would have been in big doodoo, too. In the second was the hardest kill too, as described above. (The Ogre was much stronger, but fell rather quickly due to some lucky dice.)

[Red Fel]

Thanks for the explanation! The Orc Chieftain actually was the hardest kill in both combats. In the first one he almost butchered our Fighter, after which the other rather fragile characters would have been in big doodoo, too. In the second was the hardest kill too, as described above. (The Ogre was much stronger, but fell rather quickly due to some lucky dice.)

Then I would argue that his participation contributed to the XP award in both encounters. Enjoy double-billing your enemies! :smallsmile:

[Fouredged Sword]

With #2, I would be tempted to think of the combat as a single encounter that moved from one room to the next. Did the party and chieftain have a moment to recover, drink a potion? If no, then it should be considered the same encounter. I suspect the chieftain took off and the party followed on his heels, not stopping to recover. The CR of the encounter should be calculated to include ALL monsters involved, but don't double count.

If there is significant delay between the combat that allows the players to recover and plan, then they are separate encounters, though I would reduce the CR of the chieftain in the second encounter by 1 for half HP, and 2 for 1/4 HP.

[Kaeso]

The way I do it, is that I don't award XP for killed enemies, but for encounters that are overcome. My definitions of "encounter" and "overcome" are very broad, to avoid a "let's kill everything for xp" attitude. For example, I've given players XP for chasing away bandits without even lifting their weapons, and for holding a barricaded door and preventing the enemy from entering a tavern long enough for the people inside to escape through the back door.

Even though the rules favor combat, I like to think DnD isn't just about killing things.

[Rumo]

With #2, I would be tempted to think of the combat as a single encounter that moved from one room to the next. Did the party and chieftain have a moment to recover, drink a potion? If no, then it should be considered the same encounter. I suspect the chieftain took off and the party followed on his heels, not stopping to recover. The CR of the encounter should be calculated to include ALL monsters involved, but don't double count.

If there is significant delay between the combat that allows the players to recover and plan, then they are separate encounters, though I would reduce the CR of the chieftain in the second encounter by 1 for half HP, and 2 for 1/4 HP.

Yes, there was a delay of maybe 30 minutes. We rested for the moment, searched an area, went down a hallway and had the choice between two doors. Incidentally the one we opened led to the huge boss encounter - and to the place where our old friend had fled. We were not especially happy, me being a mage out of spells, and only two more level 3 characters, facing 1 ogre, 2 wolves and 5 orcs.

[Psyren]

I'm with Red Fel, he would count twice; after all, he contributed to the enemy twice.

[Rumo]

The DM insisted that these battles were one encounter. He said we only made it two encounters, by first resting and healing for half an hour and only later following towards the direction where the orc had gone, and incidentally found him behind that particular door.

He does a great job in general, but that doesn't even remotely make sense to me.

Anyway, yesterday night we made it to level 5, and I can look forward to putting three new spells into my book. :smallsmile:

[Brookshw]

The DM insisted that these battles were one encounter. He said we only made it two encounters, by first resting and healing for half an hour and only later following towards the direction where the orc had gone, and incidentally found him behind that particular door.

He does a great job in general, but that doesn't even remotely make sense to me.

Anyway, yesterday night we made it to level 5, and I can look forward to putting three new spells into my book. :smallsmile:

Off the top of my head without the book for reference I believe the xp scalling for a higher encounter would actually be a net gain for the party rather than what you would have received for each counted individually. Could be wrong on this.

As its legitimacy an encounters beginning and end is determined by the dm so he's correctly following the rules even if it seems odd. A staggered encounter can still be an encounter, wotc premades sometimes use such devices.

Anyway, sounds like a net gain for you. Grats on 5!

[Killer Angel]

The DM insisted that these battles were one encounter. He said we only made it two encounters, by first resting and healing for half an hour and only later following towards the direction where the orc had gone, and incidentally found him behind that particular door.

He does a great job in general, but that doesn't even remotely make sense to me.

Because it doesn't.
The orc chieftain wasn't cured in the meantime? He didn't gave info to the other ones in the room? They didn't try to prepare or set a better ambush tnx to these infos?
Maybe you made it two encounters, but i doubt the enemies didn't take an advantage from your delay.

[Psyren]

Whether they're one big encounter or two shouldn't matter. He should be measuring the opposition and calculating the XP that way regardless.

To (over)simplify, Fighting 20 orcs in one room, and fighting 9 in one room while one flees to the next room where you then fight 11, should be the same thing.

[WrathMage]

The way i run my game, the situation that the OP describes would count as two encounters. You overcame the encounter (by making the Orc flee). The fact that he then pops up in another encounter just makes that one a tough one: but you would be rewarded for its toughness by the extra XP the orc would give if the encounter was over come.

Does that make sense?

[Rumo]

The way i run my game, the situation that the OP describes would count as two encounters. You overcame the encounter (by making the Orc flee). The fact that he then pops up in another encounter just makes that one a tough one: but you would be rewarded for its toughness by the extra XP the orc would give if the encounter was over come.

Does that make sense?

Absolutely, to me (and thanks to everyone who answers here, by the way). I'd like to add to the "9 Orcs + 11 Orcs" example, that he was a rather high level guy, who despite taking many hits almost managed to take down our fighter, while his comrades fell like flies.

[Trasilor]

The DM is supposed to award XP for overcoming challenges. This includes defeating enemies (death, surrender, bargaining, fleeing, etc.), overcoming traps (discovery, avoidance, disabling, surviving, etc), influencing NPCs to help you (convincing Nobles to send aid, making a friend with a king, etc), and achieving goals. It is so much more than just killing or making your enemies run away.

With that being said, in your specific combat examples, there may be mitigating circumstances which will affect your XP

1) Were you behind cover, thus making it virtually impossible for the orcs to hit you? Were the orcs? In the first, I would give you less XP (not really a challenge) while the second I would give you more. Unless you knew that orc archers were coming and you created cover, then I would give you more XP (for coming up with an intelligent solution)

3) Were the Orcs aware of your presence? Did you purposefully make them unaware or was it luck (i.e. did you find them sleeping or did yo sneak up on them)? Was the fire a tactical decision or one based on luck (i.e. did you cast web into a room with an open fire from a fire place or did you time your actions to light the fire after the web was cast)? If you burned the web, why couldn't you follow - webs burn in like a round or two

2) Was the Orc Chieftain weaker in the second encounter? If so, less XP. However, given that the Orc Chieftain added to the overall difficulty of the second encounter - You would get even more XP (despite him being weaker). If you were tracking the chieftain, then I would award XP. Was the death of the chieftain paramount to your current quest? More XP.

I am just curious as to why you want to know? Are you thinking of running a game and wonder how to award XP? Or, are you trying to keep your DM honest by tracking how much XP you are 'supposed' to get vs. how much you have gotten?

As a DM, I use the XP calculated by the creatures as a starting point then adjust up or down depending on various factors - was the challenge more difficult than I anticipated? Did the players make poor choices resulting in a difficult challenge? Did the players make great choices which ended the encounter quickly? Did the players surprise me? Did the players engage the encounter? Did they have fun?

And that's just combat :smallamused:

[Chronos]

XP is awarded for removing the challenge posed by an encounter. If the challenge of the orc chieftain is that he's standing in the way of your party claiming the Orb of Awesomeness, and he retreats deeper into the cave, but he's still in between you and the Orb, then you haven't defeated him, and don't get XP. If he runs off into the wilderness because he never wants to see you again, then you have defeated him, and do get XP.

[137beth]

The DM insisted that these battles were one encounter. He said we only made it two encounters, by first resting and healing for half an hour and only later following towards the direction where the orc had gone, and incidentally found him behind that particular door.

He does a great job in general, but that doesn't even remotely make sense to me.

Anyway, yesterday night we made it to level 5, and I can look forward to putting three new spells into my book. :smallsmile:

If you rested, then that should have given the chieftain a chance to rest/heal as well, meaning you defeated him (at full power) twice.

If he didn't heal, you would get full xp for defeating him the first time, and partial xp the second time (since he was less of a threat).

However, if your DM decided only to award xp for the chieftain once, there isn't much us forumites can do about it.

[Coidzor]

Using this Calculator (http://www.d20srd.org/extras/d20encountercalculator/), I've got 825 xp for 4 level 3 characters facing a CR 3 Ogre, 2 CR 1 Wolves, 4 CR 1/2 Orcs, and 1 level 3 PC-Classed Orc + 450 xp for facing that same CR 3 Orc Chief with, let's say, 6 CR 1/2 Orc warriors for backup. So that's 1275 xp for the two fights separately with the Orc Chief counting for each vs. 975 xp for the combined encounter with all of them at once.


To (over)simplify, Fighting 20 orcs in one room, and fighting 9 in one room while one flees to the next room where you then fight 11, should be the same thing.

It really shouldn't, because you're pulling an extra orc out of thin air. :smallconfused:

Oh, right, commas.

[Rumo]

The DM is supposed to award XP for overcoming challenges. This includes defeating enemies (death, surrender, bargaining, fleeing, etc.), overcoming traps (discovery, avoidance, disabling, surviving, etc), influencing NPCs to help you (convincing Nobles to send aid, making a friend with a king, etc), and achieving goals. It is so much more than just killing or making your enemies run away.

With that being said, in your specific combat examples, there may be mitigating circumstances which will affect your XP

1) Were you behind cover, thus making it virtually impossible for the orcs to hit you? Were the orcs? In the first, I would give you less XP (not really a challenge) while the second I would give you more. Unless you knew that orc archers were coming and you created cover, then I would give you more XP (for coming up with an intelligent solution)

3) Were the Orcs aware of your presence? Did you purposefully make them unaware or was it luck (i.e. did you find them sleeping or did yo sneak up on them)? Was the fire a tactical decision or one based on luck (i.e. did you cast web into a room with an open fire from a fire place or did you time your actions to light the fire after the web was cast)? If you burned the web, why couldn't you follow - webs burn in like a round or two

2) Was the Orc Chieftain weaker in the second encounter? If so, less XP. However, given that the Orc Chieftain added to the overall difficulty of the second encounter - You would get even more XP (despite him being weaker). If you were tracking the chieftain, then I would award XP. Was the death of the chieftain paramount to your current quest? More XP.

I am just curious as to why you want to know? Are you thinking of running a game and wonder how to award XP? Or, are you trying to keep your DM honest by tracking how much XP you are 'supposed' to get vs. how much you have gotten?

As a DM, I use the XP calculated by the creatures as a starting point then adjust up or down depending on various factors - was the challenge more difficult than I anticipated? Did the players make poor choices resulting in a difficult challenge? Did the players make great choices which ended the encounter quickly? Did the players surprise me? Did the players engage the encounter? Did they have fun?

And that's just combat :smallamused:

1 and 3: Both were rather straight encounters: We walk into a room, they grab their weapon and attack/charge. No ambush/surprise situation in either case. I don't see though why using cover would detract from the challenge and XP reward. I'd think that using cover to one's advantage is an intelligent way of problem solving, that deserves to be rewarded.

2: There was also fire involved in the fight with the chieftain, but the fire+web situation came about when we met the three orc shaman girls. Well, to be honest, I didn't really intend to burn the room (in fact it almost killed our fighter - so I later felt compelled to tell her that it was the orc shaman who had casted that spell), but it's the result that matters or not? :)

Why I ask? Well, in the beginning I was a little bit disappointed that the XP hadn't been enough for Lvl 5. We had been on Lvl 4 for quite awhile, many encounters since then, we were just going to sleep and (in my case) memorize spells, and I know it must have been very close, so I wanted to know if everything was correct. Second: I'm just curious how people here would handle it, but it seems to be a rather debatable decision with valid arguments for either viewpoint.