9th Level Spells and Spontaneous Casters

[Everynone]

Hello playgrounders.

I am building a 20th level sorcerer right now. I'm using a class that I built (DM approved; The Elementalist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=16499167&postcount=1)) which allows for one additional elemental spell known if the character is a spontaneous caster if a specific class feature is chosen. Since I'm allocating 1 blast spell per spell level (so that I can offer heavy artillery without overdoing it), this class feature frees up an additional 9th level spell slot, assuming I use the feature to learn Meteor Swarm.

Here is my current projected spells known:

0th (9)
-Ray of Frost (blast)
-Resistance (buff)
-Dancing Lights (control)
-Ghost Sounds (control)
-Mage Hand (utility)
-Light (utility)
-Detect Magic (utility)
-Message (utility)
-Prestidigitation (utility)

1st (5)
-Lesser Orb of Fire (blast)
-Feather Fall (buff)
-Ray of Enfeeblement (debuff)
-Charm Person (debuff/utility)
-Grease (control)

2nd (5)
-Scorching Ray (blast)
-Protection from Arrows (buff)
-Glitterdust (debuff)
-Web (control)
-Detect Thoughts (utility)

3rd (4)
-Fireball (blast)
-Protection from Energy (buff)
-Displacement (buff)
-Fly (buff/utility)

4th (4)
-Orb of Fire (blast)
-Stoneskin (buff)
-Greater Invisibility (buff)
-Enervation (debuff)

5th (4)
-Cone of Cold (blast)
-Feeblemind (debuff)
-Telekinesis (debuff/utility/blast)
-Wall of Force (control)

6th (3)
-Chain Lightning (blast)
-Energy Immunity (buff)
-True Seeing (buff)

7th (3)
-Delayed Blast Fireball (blast)
-Spell Turning (buff)
-Waves of Exhaustion (debuff)

8th (3)
-??? (blast)
-Mind Blank (buff)
-Moment of Prescience (buff)

9th (3)
-Meteor Swarm (blast; from Elemental Knowledge)
-Timestop (buff)
-Disjunction (debuff)
-??? (???)


Sorry about all the "blast", "buff", "debuff", "control", "utility" stuff. I'm going for a blaster/generalist, as this is my first full caster, so those notes are mostly for my benefit (I copy/pasted). I know blasters typically aren't regarded as powerful, but I think with this class the character will be more formidable than is typical, and I'm not fully devoted to burning things, as you can see.

Right now, the choice would be easy (Shapechange or Gate) if not for a few rules the DM is imposing/enforcing. Gate, if cast as a memorized/non-scroll spell, has the full 1,000 XP penalty. I would very much like to avoid that, and I guess I'm fine with casting that just from scrolls (I'd rather spend GP than XP). Ways to eliminate or severely mitigate the XP penalty would be helpful.

As for Shapechange, my DM told me, "Let me put it this way: if you're polymorphed, you can't cast spells." Upon further investigation, I found this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?161186-WoTC-say-NO-spell-like-abilities-with-Shapechange-Polymorph), and that subsequently lead me to learning that not only is spellcasting, but neither are SLAs or even Supernatural abilities able to be used while polymorphed. This puts a huge dampener on this spell in my mind.

As a side note, I will also get Summon Monster IX for free, but only in regards to monster with a subtype of my chosen element, so picking that one would be redundant.

At this point, I'm leaning towards Energy Drain (but I already have Enervation) or Prismatic Sphere (but I already have many buffs for a generalist).

Also, in case you didn't notice, I'm also missing a blast spell for 8th level. I can't seem to find much that looks impressive, or even particularly useful, when compared to lower level blast spells.

Any help would be appreciated.

[Darrin]

What sourcebooks do you have available? Do you have access to online materials? Dragon Magazine? Setting-specific materials?

It looks like you're restricted to Core spells, so...

8th level blasty-spell: See if you can grab Firestorm from Cleric/Druid? Ref Half kinda bites but you get a whole bunch of 10' cubes, and it's fun to weave them around the battlefield, particularly after the meatbags get into melee and there aren't any clear clumps of "good guys/bad guys".

Otherwise, Polar Ray might be somewhat decent.

9th level: Meteor Storm is somewhat widely considered to be underpowered. Maybe swap that for Elemental Swarm or Storm of Vengeance?

Other than that, I think I have to go with Shapechange, even without all the SLA/Su/DM Nerfs. Just too darned useful for stuff like Troll regen, Hydra flurry, Wisp invis, Golem immunity, etc. Also too many social engineering possibilities. After that, I'd grab Energy Drain as your best 9th level blasty-debuff spell.

[Everynone]

What sourcebooks do you have available? Do you have access to online materials? Dragon Magazine? Setting-specific materials?

Restricted to almost anything 1st-party WotC, no Dragon Magazine. Setting-specific...I'm not actually sure on that one, but I think it would depend on whether or not it made sense in our homebrewed setting.

You mentioned trading out wizard/sorcerer spells for cleric/druid spells. How would that be done?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Use this trick (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?267805-Sorcerer-Handbook#4) to get 1/day and several/day buffs such as Superior Resistance, Mind Blank, Overland Flight, Heart of Air/Water/Earth/Fire, Primal Hunter/Instinct/Senses/Speed, Greater Mage/Luminous Armor, etc. You can also put utility spells such as Rope Trick, Shrink Item, Mass Resist Energy, and anything you have labeled as utility on that. This should free up a considerable number of spells known for you, and give you access to tons of situational spells you would not have otherwise learned.

[Grayson01]

May I suggest changing Lesser Orb of Fire (blast)
To Lesser Orb of acid (blast). Your first 4 (not counting 0) spell levels are all Fire blasting spells, fire is one of the most resisted elements in the game having Lesser Orb of Acid will give you a little more utility as far as elemental damage.
Or change out Scorching Ray for seaking ray but I like Scorching ray over seaking.

[Grayson01]

For 8th here are some choices
Sunburst
(Player's Handbook v.3.5, p. 289)

Evocation [Light]
Level: Druid 8, Sorcerer 8, Wizard 8, Warmage 8, Sha'ir 8, Sun 8, Purification 8, Elysium 8, Elf 8, Initiate of amaunator 8,
Components: V, S, M, DF,
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Area: 80-ft.-radius burst
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex partial; see text
Spell Resistance: Yes

Blackfire
(Spell Compendium, p. 29)

Necromancy [Evil]
Level: Sorcerer 8, Wizard 8,
Components: V, S, M,
Casting Time: 1 Standard Action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Effect: Ray
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Throw: Fortitude partial and Reflex negates; see text
Spell Resistance: Yes


With the dark words still on your tongue, a ray of black energy springs from your hand to wrap the indicated target in black flames that absorb heat rather than create it. The black fire crackles and hisses, emanating the smells of hot metal and sulfur.

You must succeed on a ranged touch attack with the ray to strike a target. On a successful attack, a living target is engulfed in chill black flames that feed on the fuel of their victim's life force. A creature engulfed in blackfire must make a successful Fortitude save each round that the spell is in effect or take 1d4 points of Constitution damage and become nauseated. A creature that makes its Fortitude save takes no damage for that round and is sickened instead. In addition to its effects on the subject, blackfire can spread rapidly. Each round on its turn, any living creature adjacent to a creature engulfed in blackfire must succeed on a Reflex save or become engulfed itself.

Any creature that has its Constitution reduced to 0 or lower by the spell is turned into a pile of black ash and can be returned to life only by true resurrection or wish, the caster of which must succeed on a DC 30 caster level check to restore the victim to life. If a creature succeeds on its Fortitude save in 3 consecutive rounds, the blackfire affecting it gutters out. The black flames cannot otherwise be extinguished by normal means (such as immersion in water or smothering), but antimagic field, a successful dispel magic, remove curse, or break enchantment snuffs it out. As well, a creature protected by death ward has immunity to blackfire's effects.

Material Component: A pinch of dust from a vampire destroyed by sunlight.




Sunburst causes a globe of searing radiance to explode silently from a point you select. All creatures in the globe are blinded and take 6d6 points of damage. A creature to which sunlight is harmful or unnatural takes double damage. A successful Reflex save negates the blindness and reduces the damage by half.

An undead creature caught within the globe takes 1d6 points of damage per caster level (maximum 25d6), or half damage if a Reflex save is successful. In addition, the burst results in the destruction of any undead creature specifically harmed by bright light (such as a vampire) if it fail its save.

The ultraviolet light generated by the spell deals damage to fungi, mold, oozes, and slimes just as if they were undead creatures.

Sunburst dispels any darkness spells of lower than 9th level within its area.

Arcane Material Component: A piece of sunstone and a naked flame.
Lightning Ring
(Spell Compendium, p. 132)

Evocation [Electricity]
Level: Sorcerer 8, Wizard 8,
Components: V, S, M,
Casting Time: 1 round
Range: Personal
Effect: Ring of electricity
Duration: 1 round/2 levels
Saving Throw: See text
Spell Resistance: Yes


Your body quakes as a ring of crackling electricity explodes from your chest to whirl about you.

The ring of electricity moves with you and does not interfere with your spellcasting or attacks, or with others attacking you. As long as the lightning ring is in effect, you gain resistance to electricity 20. At the beginning of your turn each round, adjacent creatures take 10d6 points of electricity damage, or half that with a successful Reflex save.

In addition, each round as a free action at the beginning of your turn, you can direct two lightning bolts that deal 5d6 points of electricity damage each, exactly as the lightning bolt spell (caster level 5th), in any directions you choose. Each bolt can be aimed separately. A creature struck by one of these bolts can make a Reflex save for half damage. The DC for this save is calculated for an 8th-level spell, even though the bolts mimic a 3rd-level spell.

Material Components: A small glass ring and a bit of fur from any animal.

Prismatic Bow
(Complete Mage)

Evocation
Level: Sorcerer 8, Wizard 8,
Components: V, S,
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 0 ft.
Effect: A longbow made up of swirling, prismatic colors
Duration: 1 minute/level or until discharged
Saving Throw: See text
Spell Resistance: Yes


A glittering, flashing longbow, containing every hue of the rainbow, appears in your hands.
A prismatic bow functions as a +1 longbow; in addition, once per round you can choose to imbue an arrow shot from it with one of the seven colors of the bow, chosen from the list of colors created by prismatic spray (PH 264).
In addition to its normal effect, the arrow has the same effect as the corresponding beam from prismatic spray (including blindness for 2d4 rounds if the target has 8 HD or fewer).
Saves and spell resistance apply to this effect as normal for prismatic spray.
Once you fire an arrow, the corresponding color disappears from the bow, and you can't select that color again during this particular casting of the spell.
When the duration ends or when you have used the effects of all seven colors, the bow vanishes.
You are automatically considered proficient with a prismatic bow.
No one else can use your prismatic bow, though you need not carry it at all times (you can stow it, drop it, or even hand it to another character to hold).
If you cast this spell a second time while a previous version is still in effect, the first prismatic bows duration ends.
Polar Ray
(Player's Handbook v.3.5, p. 262)

Evocation [Cold]
Level: Duskblade 5, Sorcerer 8, Wizard 8, Warmage 8, Sha'ir 8, Cold (CD) 8,
Components: V, S, AF,
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: Ray
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes


A blue-white ray of freezing air and ice springs from your hand. You must succeed on a ranged touch attack with the ray to deal damage to a target. The ray deals 1d6 points of cold damage per caster level (maximum 25d6).

Focus: A small, white ceramic cone or prism.

[icefractal]

I've heard that Maw of Chaos is a quality 9th level blasting spell.

Not being able to cast spells while Shapechanged is not the normal rules, at all. But even with that nerf, I think it's still worth it - you get access to a wide variety of useful supernatural abilities, excellent disguise and mobility, and it's great for defensive purposes.

[Everynone]

Not being able to cast spells while Shapechanged is not the normal rules, at all.

Can you show proof, like some sourcebook with RAW that state it in some clear way? Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you're wrong (I don't have enough experience with full casters to know the rules regarding this -- I'm a ranger kinda guy :smallbiggrin:), I'd just like proof so I could show my DM. It would make Shapechange that much more awesome.

[Karnith]

Can you show proof, like some sourcebook with RAW that state it in some clear way? Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you're wrong (I don't have enough experience with full casters to know the rules regarding this -- I'm a ranger kinda guy :smallbiggrin:), I'd just like proof so I could show my DM. It would make Shapechange that much more awesome.
Shapechange (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shapechange.htm) functions as Polymorph (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorph.htm) except where otherwise noted, and Polymorph functions as Alter Self (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/alterSelf.htm) except where otherwise noted. And Alter Self says (among other things):

If the new form is capable of speech, you can communicate normally. You retain any spellcasting ability you had in your original form, but the new form must be able to speak intelligibly (that is, speak a language) to use verbal components and must have limbs capable of fine manipulation to use somatic or material components.
Since neither Polymorph nor Shapechange contain any text contradicting Alter Self in this matter, both Polymorph and Shapechange allow spellcasting in assumed forms, provided that you are able to supply components as necessary.

Newer Polymorph spells (i.e. those designed using the rules of the Polymorph subschool) do not allow a character to retain her spellcasting in an assumed form, but the older line of spells based on Alter Self do.

[fishyfishyfishy]

Actually there are rules for not being able to cast spells while shapechanged right there in the rules for casting spells. The form you take must be able to fulfill all verbal and somatic components the spell requires in order to cast it. So if you transform into a flea, you're not going to be able to cast a spell unless it's quickened or silent and stilled. The form of a Kraken should have no issue with spell casting since they can speak both common and aquan and have plenty of tentacles to perform necessary movements for somatic components.

[Khedrac]

Whilst Wish is probably a waste of a 9th level slot - too expensive to cast that often - if this is for an extended campaign then you want Limited Wish at 7th. Yes you hope never to need it, but it can save a lot of trouble if you have it for emergencies (e.g. someone just rolled a 1 against Flesh to Stone - something I have seen happen as a DM, first time that sorcerer cast it too, restored the cleric who one-shotted the final encounter).

[Andezzar]

The form of a Kraken should have no issue with spell casting since they can speak both common and aquan and have plenty of tentacles to perform necessary movements for somatic components.While a kraken has many arms, you need a hand to provide somatic components.
A somatic component is a measured and precise movement of the hand. You must have at least one hand free to provide a somatic component.
There may be a feat somewhere that allows you to provide somatic components with other body parts.

Any reason why Gate is not on the list of 9th level spells?

[Darrin]

You mentioned trading out wizard/sorcerer spells for cleric/druid spells. How would that be done?

I didn't take the time to read your Elementalist write-up, so I assumed a homebrewed elemental-themed PrC would have something that allows you to cherry-pick element-based spells from other class spell lists.

However, there's a clause in the Sorcerer class description that allows them to research "new" spells that don't appear on the Sor/Wiz spell list:

"These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list (page 192), or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study. For example, a sorcerer with a scroll or spellbook detailing an unusual sorcerer/wizard spell (one not on the sorcerer/wizard spell list in this book) could select that spell as one of his new spells for attaining a new level, provided that it is of the right spell level."

You need to clear it with your DM and come to an agreement on what sort of research you need to get the spell.



Restricted to almost anything 1st-party WotC, no Dragon Magazine. Setting-specific...I'm not actually sure on that one, but I think it would depend on whether or not it made sense in our homebrewed setting.


That changes things considerably... in that case, my favorite blasty spell is probably frostfell (Frostburn): 20' cube/level, everything in those cubes saves vs. instant popsicle death. If they *make* the save, Xd6 frostburn damage (20d6 max). Anything that survives is in the middle of a heavy snowstorm, covered in ice, anything they are holding is covered in ice (Dex check or they drop it), and they are standing on ice (difficult terrain + flat-footed without 5 ranks in Balance). 9th level for sorcerers. However, I'd probably still take Shapechange first just for all the high utility stuff it can do.



1st (5)
-Feather Fall (buff)
-Ray of Enfeeblement (debuff)


Feather Fall is easier to get on an item. And I'm not sure how useful a debuff is at 20th level. I'd consider taking benign transposition (Spell Compendium) and/or instant diversion (Dragon Magic) instead.



2nd (5)
-Protection from Arrows (buff)
-Detect Thoughts (utility)


Swap protection from arrows for wings of cover (Races of the Dragon).

I'm not sure I see much utility in detect thoughts. Arcane turmoil (Complete Mage), cloud of bewilderment (Spell Compendium), cloud of knives (PHBII), heroics (Spell Compendium), whirling blade (Spell Compendium), and wraithstrike (Spell Compendium) are all very popular 2nd level picks.



3rd (4)
-Fireball (blast)
-Displacement (buff)


Ok, I understand the fire-blasty theme, but I still think I'd rather have dispel magic instead of fireball. If I need to fireball something, then I'd carry a few scrolls or maybe a wand.

Displacement can be obtained via the cloak or weapon/armor spikes + Smoking property (+1 enhancement, Lords of Darkness).

Another good 3rd level pick: heart of water (Complete Mage) for water breathing and freedom of movement.



4th (4)
-Orb of Fire (blast)
-Stoneskin (buff)
-Greater Invisibility (buff)
-Enervation (debuff)


Those are all solid picks.



5th (4)
-Cone of Cold (blast)
-Feeblemind (debuff)


If your DM will allow it, consider trading cone of cold for Daltim's fiery tentacles (Shining South). OMG I love that spell: all the Hentai jokes from Evard's, plus they're on fire. It matches your "Burn Things!" theme, and if you didn't take Evard's at 4th, then you can get it here.

Feeblemind has the dreaded [mind-affecting] tag, so there are lots of creatures that will be immune to it. Consider replacing it with arcane fusion (Complete Mage).

Another favorite is necrotic skull bomb (Champions of Ruin): actually this isn't a great spell (Fort negates, SR: Yes), but it's a swift action to cast and it has an awesome name.



6th (3)
-Chain Lightning (blast)


I think I'd prefer acid fog here: all the shutdown of solid fog + 2d6 acid damage that's Save: No and SR: No.



7th (3)
-Delayed Blast Fireball (blast)
-Spell Turning (buff)
-Waves of Exhaustion (debuff)


Arcane spellsurge (Dragon Magic) and greater arcane fusion (Complete Mage) are both available here. Leveraging the action economy = big win button.

I've been looking for something blasty better than delayed blast fireball, but couldn't find anything.