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YoshiCline
2014-05-20, 03:17 PM
I have been DMing a group for a couple months now, my first attempt at it, and wrapped up a campaign. Other than issues mostly caused simply because it was my first time DMing - there was only one issue that stood out to me. My power player, or specifically, that he is a power player, but the others are not. I have no problem with just stepping up my game to give them challenges, but if I step it up for him, then everyone else is screwed, and if I don't step it up for him, he tears through everything like a rock through wet toilet paper - while everyone else watches.

So that brings me to my question, how do I make the others in my group to be power players without just making their characters for them?

erikun
2014-05-20, 04:31 PM
1.) Is it possible for the power player to step down his game?
2.) Is it possible to give challenges that allow the power player time to dominate battles but the non-power players time outside battles?
3.) Can you just include challenges that engage everyone, with perhaps more or larger targets for the power player?

There is going to be a lot depending on the system you are using, as well. If we're talking D&D3e, then there is the serious concern that one player could make an accidental choice (Druid, for example) that unintentionally leaves them a lot more powerful than the rest. If we're talking something like D&D4e, though, most of the system is intended to allow all players to deal with their own challenges in a fight at the same time.

Jay R
2014-05-20, 05:34 PM
When the Avengers fought the Justice League, Thor fought Superman, while Captain America faced Batman.

Do the equivalent. Have the team attacked by a group of foes composed of a Big Threat, and several unoptimized cohorts. The Big Threat goes after the Power Gamer.

The Oni
2014-05-20, 05:53 PM
When the Avengers fought the Justice League, Thor fought Superman, while Captain America faced Batman.

Do the equivalent. Have the team attacked by a group of foes composed of a Big Threat, and several unoptimized cohorts. The Big Threat goes after the Power Gamer.

This works, but only if the other players are OK with the notion that they're the rest of the Justice League while PP is Superman. Only you as the GM know the group and can predict how that might play out, so that's on you.

The other alternative, I suppose, is to offer buffs in some other way to the other characters so that functionally they're fighting at close to the same level. Maybe one character gets an awesome sword/gun/swordgun that only he can operate because [fluff reasons here], maybe another learns a set of Power Words that only they can read, etc.

If the powergamer asks why he isn't getting a sick buff (out of game) explain that he's already awesome and doesn't need the help; chances are he'll take it better being told he's awesome than the other players being told they're not awesome enough.

Just a thought.

veti
2014-05-20, 06:34 PM
If your players are OK with being outshone by PP, then you don't really have a problem. If they're not OK with it, then have a chat to them about optimisation, point them at some relevant links, and tell them the answer is to put some homework into their next characters.

How about: wait until the PP is committed to something - I dunno, engaging the big boss or holding off an army single-handed or whatever...

... then unveil a separate level- and tier-appropriate challenge for everyone else. No matter how optimised he is, he can't be everywhere at once.

Or swarm the party with multiple enemies that are (just strong enough that PP can't end the whole combat at once just by flaring his nostrils), but (not so strong as to spell TPK for the rest of the party). Assuming the power differential isn't too great to allow that, of course.

nedz
2014-05-20, 07:58 PM
Different players have different play-styles: This is because they want different things from the game.

Have any of the players complained ? If not then the problem may be less serious than you think, in short you may be over-analysing.

That said: if you have an unbalanced party, and it sounds like you do, then that is actually a different problem — though it can be a secondary result of the play-style issue. 3.5 is actually very poor at promoting game balance and it's almost impossible to retrofit a solution to an existing game. There are several standard solutions:

Restrict characters to a narrow range of Tiers, problem here is that Player > Build > Class and so this might not help with your group.
House-rule away all of the OP options. The problem here is that it's a very big, almost impossible, job which requires very high levels of system mastery from the DM
Play E6, this will stop the power discrepancy by basically chopping off the game above level 6 — but it mught jar with some people's play-style.
Gentlemen's agreement: talk to the players and try to get them to avoid high, and low, powered characters

prufock
2014-05-21, 10:11 AM
The simplest solution is to tell your player he is overshadowing the others and ask him to tone it down.

Other than that, you could offer better items specific to the other characters' classes to power them up.

YoshiCline
2014-05-21, 04:49 PM
None of them have actually complained, but the biggest example was our last session - he was a rouge/swashbuckler with tons of aberrant feats, level 10 (same as everyone else) - and I threw 4 mind flayers at them. He wins initiative by a landslide (as he usually did), and then proceeds to eliminate all 4 mind flayers in the first round. After his turn I decided there were actually 4 more mind flayers that they couldn't originally see. Stun everyone, and hold person him, planning to enslave one or two of the party and then get them to try some diplomacy (he was lawful evil, they were lawful evil - surely they could come to an agreement). Eventually just had the mind flayers say "please stop killing us - we are not your enemy"

I digress, but that was just one example - he could give you others (he does have an account here). The point is though, I think it's great to have a bunch of powerful adventurers together - and the two of us have discussed it and I want to avoid making him tone it down.

Perhaps I'll just talk to them all and help them build their characters to a higher potential.

Thank you all for the suggestions.

nedz
2014-05-21, 07:47 PM
Ask him if he would enjoy more of a challenge at the table ?

As things stand he is playing the mini-game of Char OP, which is quite challenging, but not an actually challenging game at the table.

JusticeZero
2014-05-22, 12:36 AM
I have no problem with just stepping up my game to give them challenges, but if I step it up for him, then everyone else is screwed, and if I don't step it up for him, he tears through everything like a rock through wet toilet paper - while everyone else watches.
Never, ever, ever boost the difficulty for one person. Try talking to the guy and having him focus on something less damage based, or at least more single target. Scatter the enemy out more so that you are more likely to see several fights at once simply because not everyone can reach. Also, if the other players don't care, it doesn't matter. If they do, let the power guy help to step everyone else's games up. "fits the theme" is a completely relevant thing to maximize around.

Juzer
2014-05-22, 06:12 AM
...throw them challenges which are not combat based: mind flyers scream psichic illusions, deception, slaves and just everything needed to put on issue "you can kill everything separately, but way before you have to understand WHAT to kill"

of course, find also pretty spots for just every other PGs: animals to speak to if there's a druid, arcane energies if there's a wizard, shrines if there's a cleric and so on with other things that the rogue-swashbuckler with aberrant feats (let PNGs react to the descriptions of these feats also) can't just do (like spells).

John Longarrow
2014-05-22, 07:01 AM
he was a rouge/swashbuckler with tons of aberrant feats, level 10 (same as everyone else) - and I threw 4 mind flayers at them. He wins initiative by a landslide (as he usually did), and then proceeds to eliminate all 4 mind flayers in the first round.

Could you please let us know how he pulled this off? For a non-caster, this sounds like the Mind Flayers were being lead to the slaughter.

What is the rest of the party? If we've got an idea of what kinds of character's he's surrounded by, we can give you a better idea on how to challenge THEM without leaving your rogue/swashbucker high and dry.

CombatOwl
2014-05-22, 09:20 AM
I have been DMing a group for a couple months now, my first attempt at it, and wrapped up a campaign. Other than issues mostly caused simply because it was my first time DMing - there was only one issue that stood out to me. My power player, or specifically, that he is a power player, but the others are not. I have no problem with just stepping up my game to give them challenges, but if I step it up for him, then everyone else is screwed, and if I don't step it up for him, he tears through everything like a rock through wet toilet paper - while everyone else watches.

So that brings me to my question, how do I make the others in my group to be power players without just making their characters for them?


Could you please let us know how he pulled this off? For a non-caster, this sounds like the Mind Flayers were being lead to the slaughter.

What is the rest of the party? If we've got an idea of what kinds of character's he's surrounded by, we can give you a better idea on how to challenge THEM without leaving your rogue/swashbucker high and dry.

Yeah, I'm curious about that too.

The Insanity
2014-05-22, 09:32 AM
Ask him to help the others make their characters.

Jay R
2014-05-22, 03:50 PM
It depends on his goals, and you've only told us about his methods.

If he wants to optimize under the rules, encourage him to help the others design characters. That way, he gets to spend more time doing what he loves.

If he wants to be the most powerful PC, then there is no solution.

JusticeZero
2014-05-22, 07:59 PM
Right, powergamers I have seen don't want to break games - they just enjoy planning characters out and understand the rules better, because it's fun to learn how the game works. They make powerful characters for the same reason that expert cooks who appreciate fine food make yummy dishes instead of throwing some cheap potato chips and store bought guacamole that contains no avocados and call it good.

Cikomyr
2014-05-22, 08:10 PM
There are multiple ways to approach this problem. Posters above have proposed some very good ones, but here's one that might seem fair to everyone.

Have the focus of your encounters made to negate the Swashbuckler's advantages.

Now, before anyone screams "unfair!" or "foul!", make the point that the Swashbuckler is so awesome that his reputation is preceding him, and that any group of enemies planning to encounter the PC have all heard of "Super-Swashbuckler & Co.", and thus are all prepared to fight HIM.

Suddenly, the player might start to rely more on his teammates. And it will strike his ego that enemies are planning to fight HIM. The rest of the group will suddenly find themselves more useful.

After all. If you plan to go after the Justice League, first thing you do is to load up on Kryptonite. So you are basically increasing difficulty but only for him.

Although it would be a good idea to suggest to him first that you will start to do that, and explain to him the rationales.