So a 20th-level wizard wants to invade the US...

[Thealtruistorc]

I was talking with my buddy earlier today about whether or not various wizards would be able to invade the US and win. Harry Potter wizards we agreed would be defeated easily, while Fairy Tail wizards would have a chance if they played their cards right. It was then when I popped the controversial question: Could a 20th-level D&D Wizard take on the full military force of the modern United States and come out on top? I am rather interested in seeing what you folks come up with.

[Rubik]

I was talking with my buddy earlier today about whether or not various wizards would be able to invade the US and win. Harry Potter wizards we agreed would be defeated easily, while Fairy Tail wizards would have a chance if they played their cards right. It was then when I popped the controversial question: Could a 20th-level D&D Wizard take on the full military force of the modern United States and come out on top? I am rather interested in seeing what you folks come up with.Yes. It's been deconstructed before, many, many, many times.

Even a 1st level wizard, armed with nothing but Charm Person, could likely do it, if all he needs to do is schmooze his way into befriending the top tier people in various governments across the world.

[malonkey1]

Yes. It's been deconstructed before, many, many, many times.

Even a 1st level wizard, armed with nothing but Charm Person, could likely do it, if all he needs to do is schmooze his way into befriending the top tier people in various governments across the world.

I actually think it depends on who has prepared. Additionally, on how much each side knows about the other. One top general who plays D&D may well save everyone. (Wait to fire until he's about to cast!)

[Malimar]

As early as level 15, a wizard can cast create greater undead to create a shadow. In this world, we entirely lack any ability to affect incorporeal creatures, so, once a shadow is created and ordered to start draining people and creating spawn, a shadowpocalypse is unavoidable.

[ArqArturo]

And you can always bet there's at least a bunch of low, mid, and a few high level wizards out there bent on stopping him/her. To quote Harry Dresden... Twice:

“I don't want to live in a world where the strong rule and the weak cower. I'd rather make a place where things are a little quieter. Where trolls stay the hell under their bridges and where elves don't come swooping out to snatch children from their cradles. Where vampires respect the limits, and where the faeries mind their p's and q's. My name is Harry Blackstone Copperfield Dresden. Conjure by it at your own risk. When things get strange, when what goes bump in the night flicks on the lights, when no one else can help you, give me a call. I'm in the book.”

And...

“Harry Dresden. Saving the world, one act of random destruction at a time.”

[dascarletm]

As early as level 15, a wizard can cast create greater undead to create a shadow. In this world, we entirely lack any ability to affect incorporeal creatures, so, once a shadow is created and ordered to start draining people and creating spawn, a shadowpocalypse is unavoidable.

Dr. Egon Spengler would like to have a word with you.

[The Grue]

If you buy the argument that 6th level is the absolute upper limit on mundane human achievement, and that most people in the world are between ECL 1-3, then there's absolutely nothing that could be done to stop a 20th level wizard bent on conquering the Earth, let alone one nation.

Related: Pathfinder's campaign setting has Razmir, a 19th-level wizard who did exactly that: Showed up in the Duchy of Melcat's capital, proclaimed himself a living god and demanded fealty from the Duke. He refused, so Razmir basically leveled the city and set himself up as the new ruler.

[Rubik]

As early as level 15, a wizard can cast create greater undead to create a shadow. In this world, we entirely lack any ability to affect incorporeal creatures, so, once a shadow is created and ordered to start draining people and creating spawn, a shadowpocalypse is unavoidable.And Earthlings can do absolutely nothing about it. No magic = no chance.

[Erik Vale]

Dr. Egon Spengler would like to have a word with you.

Who is he/what's his relevence?
But yes, given the end the world techniques available to a level 20 wizards I... Well I wouldn't give this world a chance unless the wizard happens to have 9 int.

[Feint's End]

I actually think it depends on who has prepared. Additionally, on how much each side knows about the other. One top general who plays D&D may well save everyone. (Wait to fire until he's about to cast!)

In a system in which wizards can quite literally become immune to any Form of harm at level 20 (actually quite a bit earlier) it doesn't matter how good your preparations are. You will loose.

The only thing somebody with knowledge of d&d will accomplish is convincing the US of surrendering before the wizard decides to level the whole contintent.

[Karnith]

Who is he/what's his relevence?
https://d2nh4f9cbhlobh.cloudfront.net/_uploads/galleries/23339/ghostbusters-image.jpg
He's one of the Ghostbusters, played by Harold Ramis. He was the one in charge of designing and making the team's equipment. That's him on the far left.

[Ghen]

In a system in which wizards can quite literally become immune to any Form of harm at level 20 (actually quite a bit earlier) it doesn't matter how good your preparations are. You will loose.

The only thing somebody with knowledge of d&d will accomplish is convincing the US of surrendering before the wizard decides to level the whole contintent.

I don't think Wizards can be immune to radiation. BOOOM nuke! = no wizard.

[Vogonjeltz]

And Earthlings can do absolutely nothing about it. No magic = no chance.

Wait, are we hypothesizing real life or D&D approximations of real life?

Also, how aware is the country that there is a hostile wizard? (Equivalent of They Live (secret enemies) or Mars Attacks (open enemies)?)

The answer changes depending.

[Erik Vale]

He's one of the Ghostbusters, played by Harold Ramis. He was the one in charge of designing and making the team's equipment. That's him on the far left.

Ah. To bad it's not real huh?

I don't think Wizards can be immune to radiation. BOOOM nuke! = no wizard.
Astral Projection, Clone, Contingency Resurection.

If the wizard survives the nuke, he can have serveral days to live to retaliate. Also the US may not wish to nuke itself...
Hell, I for one [If I was in the US] would welcome my new wizard Overlord... Since I'm not I'd probably ask him to extend his conquoring as well.



The problem with this is more, how is the wizard going to control America, and how much damage is he willing to do to take control?
Of coures, he can perform a no casualties run by just replacing key people with mindraped ice assassins, mindraping the captured people, and releasing them.

[malonkey1]

Dr. Egon Spengler would like to have a word with you.

As would CERN. Would a high-powered LASER count as replicating sunbeam?

[DeltaEmil]

As would CERN. Would a high-powered LASER count as replicating sunbeam?No, because it's not magical, just like real-world holy water isn't D&D holy water that can affect D&D shadows. The incorporeality subtype is what makes the shadow immune to 100% of anything the real world can put up, unless we have something that can deal force damage as defined by the D&D rules.

[Eldan]

Would an ethereal wizard care? Or one under Ghostform? What about an Astral Projection?

Earth can't really do anything about any of these. Then he just needs a handful of incorporeal, spawn-producing undead of choice and some time later, Earth is depopulated.

If he doesn't want to kill everyone, there's always dominate. It lasts for weeks per casting. Personally, I wouldn't start with politicians, but with multi-billionaires. They are accountable to far fewer people and have a lot of means too.

[Angelalex242]

The best hope against a shadowpocalypse is energy damage.

If flamethrowers and napalm are effectively equivalent to fireballs, then they'll work 50 percent of the time and kill half of them with every shot.

Likewise, if a taser is effectively 'shocking grasp', then you can use that too.

We've got cold damage by throwing liquid nitrogen at people.

Considering you'd need an epic spell to simulate an atomic bomb, let alone anything stronger, I'd say it, too, deals 'energy damage.'

You probably can nuke the wizard, because he has to know the bomb is coming to teleport away, and the government will keep their mouth shut.

[DeltaEmil]

Energy damage doesn't do anything towards an incorporeal creature unless it comes from a magical source (and then has a 50% chance to not hit the incorporeal creature anyway).

That's why flamethrowers do nothing, unless a kind-hearted wizard had pity with the Earth humans and magically enchanted all their flamethrowers to help them against the shadowpocalypse.

[Eldan]

Yeah, it has to be magical. Mundane lightning may deal 10d10 damage, but a shadow won't care. It could also just phase through an errupting volcano, a vat of sulphuric acid or liquid helium.

[Divayth Fyr]

You probably can nuke the wizard, because he has to know the bomb is coming to teleport away, and the government will keep their mouth shut.
Divinations and contingencies are likely enough to avoid getting nuked.

[Angelalex242]

Well, in that case...

We'd better hope holy water in real life really is holy, and the ministers and priests of the world have actual power granted them by God, cause...we're kind out of luck, otherwise.

Of course, in that case, it boils down to 20th level wizard vs. lots of clerics of various power levels. The clerics should win eventually.

[Rubik]

Well, in that case...

We'd better hope holy water in real life really is holy, and the ministers and priests of the world have actual power granted them by God, cause...we're kind out of luck, otherwise.Yeah, we're screwed.


Of course, in that case, it boils down to 20th level wizard vs. lots of clerics of various power levels. The clerics should win eventually.No magic, remember? Magic vs no magic = curbstomp battle.

[ArqArturo]

So... Astral-projecting wizard invades the world, and now we're talking about nuking him/her?.

Isn't that how Deadlands: Hell on Earth pretty much got started?.

[Anlashok]

Would an ethereal wizard care? Or one under Ghostform? What about an Astral Projection?

Earth doesn't have an Ethereal or Astral plane, so these won't actually work.

[The Glyphstone]

Well, in that case...

We'd better hope holy water in real life really is holy, and the ministers and priests of the world have actual power granted them by God, cause...we're kind out of luck, otherwise.

Of course, in that case, it boils down to 20th level wizard vs. lots of clerics of various power levels. The clerics should win eventually.

Let's not take the discussion in this direction, please.

Hint hint.



Earth doesn't have an Ethereal or Astral plane, so these won't actually work.

Does it? It's not like we have any wizards who can confirm or deny this.

[Rubik]

Earth doesn't have an Ethereal or Astral plane, so these won't actually work.Everywhere has an Astral Plane, and every Material Plane has its own Ethereal -- most planes have their own Ethereal.

And even if Earth doesn't, the wizard can go someplace that does, Astral Project from there, and then come back.

[The Oni]

Well, this was a really boring thread. I mean really, if you try to apply a fictional rules system to the real world, real life will clearly lose because nobody wrote rules for that.

[Captnq]

Well... Wait a sec...

ONE 20th level wizards? Real World? D&D Villian Wizard?

He loses.

Why? Because in the end D&D is a game. He's going to be bound by the rules of the game and that includes certain tropes.

He's going to monolog.

He's going to come into our world with an army, strut his stuff, act all arrogant and crap, but the guy never read the evil overlord list. Somewhere, about day three of the continous coverage on CNN, someone who's a gamer will figure out he's casting spells under D&D rules.

Then We Nuke. We just don't nuke, We break out the MX MIRV Missile. Because once you stack enough actual explosive force in one area, it no longer matters, the extra energy leaves earths atmosphere. We won't just try one missile. We'll hit him about a hundred times.

Now then, can an astrally projecting SOUL survive the center of the sun? I dunno. But a good chance he's not just dead, but he's GONE, because D&D doesn't have radiation.

[ben-zayb]

Do Wizards have access to the weave or shadow weave, though? I doubt that. Now could a 20th level Psion bust earth? Now we're talking.

And just a nitpick... if we use real life, then there are neither Ethereal nor Astral plane, nor any other plane for that matter. If you claim we just didn't discover it, might as well claim the same for magic.

[toapat]

Divinations and contingencies are likely enough to avoid getting nuked.

depends on how much we are allowing the Wizard to get Know: SCIENCE!. Missiles in DnD either seek or explode. Nukes have the great quality of doing both.

Personally i think the Abrams would equate to firing a No save, No protection non-Death instant kill effect.

[Angelalex242]

Huh. And to think my next idea was...

Can we mimic the Monk class (and ki strike magic?)

Can our best MMA guys function as level 6 monks?

[ngilop]

Who is he/what's his relevence?
But yes, given the end the world techniques available to a level 20 wizards I... Well I wouldn't give this world a chance unless the wizard happens to have 9 int.

.. but I thought everybody knew about ghostbusters... my brain hurts and I am depressed to be shown that not everybody does.

also we have TONS of ways to affect incorporal beings. flamethrowers, and of course Nukes to name a couple



and one COULD argue that flamethrowers, lightning guns plasma rifles and such ARE magical


something that does X type of damage for Y times.. sounds like a wand/rod/staff of Z to me.


also I have always hated these arguemnts because for osme odd reason the D&D whatevers get to play with any and everything while earth I
can't do that people only are 1st level' bs.

actuall magic don't exist in earth so a 20th level wizard would not be able to do anything. not that it a anti=magic sphere it just DOES NOT EXIST so the wizard is just a dude who will get shot and die.

[Rubik]

Do Wizards have access to the weave or shadow weave, though? I doubt that. Now could a 20th level Psion bust earth? Now we're talking.Is Earth Faerun? Does anywhere but Faerun require either?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the answer to both is "no."


And just a nitpick... if we use real life, then there are neither Ethereal nor Astral plane, nor any other plane for that matter. If you claim we just didn't discover it, might as well claim the same for magic.We have no knowledge of or access to magic, which obviously does exist in this scenario, but only for the wizard in question, since nobody else has ever managed to break physics before.


Huh. And to think my next idea was...

Can we mimic the Monk class (and ki strike magic?)

Can our best MMA guys function as level 6 monks?Monks can't do anything against incorporeal creatures.

[Anlashok]

actuall magic don't exist in earth.

This is actually a good point. Earth has, by RAW, no weave. So the wizard shows up and he's stuck here as a 26 int mortal with no grasp of earth technology, society, politics or language.

So whatever plans he has they're delayed at the very least.

[Rubik]

This is actually a good point. Earth has, by RAW, no weave.Neither do Athas, Ravenloft, Greyhawk, or Eberron.


So the wizard shows up and he's stuck here as a 26 int mortal with no grasp of earth technology, society, politics or language.

So whatever plans he has they're delayed at the very least.At worst, he's stuck in a dead magic dimension, so he'll either have to cast a 9th level spell to access magic, or he'll need to retrain three levels into cleric and take a feat for Initiate of Mystra.

[Divayth Fyr]

something that does X type of damage for Y times.. sounds like a wand/rod/staff of Z to me.
Continually pressing a burning torch against someone's body will also deal x fire damage for y seconds. It doesn't make it any more magical.

[Angelalex242]

I was about to ask, could this 20th level wizard set up a school and teach us (That is, even me and you, the people posting on this forum) how to cast actual magic?

[DeltaEmil]

Do Wizards have access to the weave or shadow weave, though? I doubt that. Now could a 20th level Psion bust earth? Now we're talking.

And just a nitpick... if we use real life, then there are neither Ethereal nor Astral plane, nor any other plane for that matter. If you claim we just didn't discover it, might as well claim the same for magic.The weave and shadow weave are only for the Forgotten Realms of Toril. The weave and shadow weave do not exist in Eberron, Athas, Oerth, Krynn, or any other D&D setting.

But if we bring in the Forgotten Realms, then yes, there is a Ethereal Plane and an Astral Plane, because Elmister came to Ed Greenwood on Earth and told him about the Realms. That's part of that setting's background history. That would mean that wizards can come willy-nilly to Earth and do their magic and ruffle up paper with their cantrips and spells, while Earth humans can do nothing about them at all.

[The Grue]

But if we bring in the Forgotten Realms, then yes, there is a Ethereal Plane and an Astral Plane, because Elmister came to Ed Greenwood on Earth and told him about the Realms.

Ugh, don't remind me...

[Chronos]

I don't accept the arguments about the highest-level real-worlders being sixth level (or rather, I accept the arguments, but they lead to a very different conclusion than that), so we probably do have a few high-level fighters, rogues, etc. Maybe not 20th level, that's a once-every-few-centuries type of thing, but high enough that a 20th level enemy should be a plausible boss encounter for them.

And even with that, we're still screwed. Even if we're playing at an op level where a 20th-level wizard can't automatically curbstomp a 16th- or 17th-level party of mundanes, and even if we assume that this party of ragtag heroes has the full funding of the US government behind them, they still don't have any magic items. Without any magic at all, even a third-level Blink spell or a fourth-level Dimension Door is going to make things very, very difficult for mundanes. By the time you get to ninth-level spells, it's far beyond hopeless.

[malonkey1]

No, because it's not magical, just like real-world holy water isn't D&D holy water that can affect D&D shadows. The incorporeality subtype is what makes the shadow immune to 100% of anything the real world can put up, unless we have something that can deal force damage as defined by the D&D rules.

Fair enough. The Shadow should still be injured by a high-powered laser, as it'd be energy damage. I'm thinking it'd be fire damage. A Terawatt of power would easily deal a sizable amount of damage, even in a .1 second burst, seeing as ITER uses one to ignite nuclear fusion. The problem there is portability. Another possibility would be a briefcase nuke, which would blow apart any shadow with ease. In fact, get a suitably clever person with a briefcase nuke close to the Wizard, that may well end the conflict.

THE PLAN:

Get briefcase nukes.
Send diplomats carrying those nukes, wearing fedoras lined with lead to avoid detect thoughts
Feign surrender, shake Wizzy's hand, set off nukes.
Assuming 5 nukes, we have about 1.3e14 joules (2 times the yield of the Hiroshima blast), which you could probably put on par with a low-power epic spell, with the added benefits of not being subject to spell resistance and DR, as well as probably ignoring energy resistance (A goodly portion of that damage might be technically fire damage, but much of it will probably be untyped) and not allowing a save. According to D20 Apocalypse, a 1 megaton nuclear armament vaporizes everything out to 500 yards. You could argue that a blast with 1/3 the power would probably only deal 1/9 the destruction, "only" vaporizing stuff out to 56 yards.
Honor the lives of those who gave their lives that day, while seeing if any magic items could be salvaged. If the Wizard's got a Portable hole with stuff in it, they might find something useful and unharmed in it.

[Morcleon]

Well... Wait a sec...

ONE 20th level wizards? Real World? D&D Villian Wizard?

He loses.

Why? Because in the end D&D is a game. He's going to be bound by the rules of the game and that includes certain tropes.

He's going to monolog.

He's going to come into our world with an army, strut his stuff, act all arrogant and crap, but the guy never read the evil overlord list. Somewhere, about day three of the continous coverage on CNN, someone who's a gamer will figure out he's casting spells under D&D rules.

Then We Nuke. We just don't nuke, We break out the MX MIRV Missile. Because once you stack enough actual explosive force in one area, it no longer matters, the extra energy leaves earths atmosphere. We won't just try one missile. We'll hit him about a hundred times.

Now then, can an astrally projecting SOUL survive the center of the sun? I dunno. But a good chance he's not just dead, but he's GONE, because D&D doesn't have radiation.

Wizard could just have a Starmantle Cloak. Grants complete immunity to nonmagical weapons.

Also, who says the wizard is the villain? They could just as well be a PC. :smallbiggrin:

[ben-zayb]

We have no knowledge of or access to magic, which obviously does exist in this scenario, but only for the wizard in question, since nobody else has ever managed to break physics before.If this is the case, then this is just a spite thread right?

Someone who can only beaten with X versus someone who can't get X is pretty much pointless, and spite, so /thread more or less.

Not to mention that a Wizard has high 20s to low 30s INT at that point. Probably with above 10 WIS and CHA if he's worth his salt. Meanwhile Humans have 21-22 Mental Stat at maximum, assuming 6th level peak human. So, no, no outsmarting this guy.

[Divayth Fyr]

Fair enough. The Shadow should still be injured by a high-powered laser, as it'd be energy damage.
No, it shouldn't.


An incorporeal creature can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons, and spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities. It is immune to all nonmagical attack forms, including energy (acid, cold, electricity, fire, and sonic) unless they come from a spell, spell-like ability, or supernatural ability.

[Eldan]

Do Wizards have access to the weave or shadow weave, though? I doubt that. Now could a 20th level Psion bust earth? Now we're talking.

And just a nitpick... if we use real life, then there are neither Ethereal nor Astral plane, nor any other plane for that matter. If you claim we just didn't discover it, might as well claim the same for magic.

Another nitpick, unless he's a Forgotten Realms wizard, he doesn't need the Weave.

If there's no other planes, well, then this thread becomes sort of pointless. Depending on your fluff for hte planes, either most or all of the magic comes from there.

So, a level 20 wizard is now an extremely intelligent man with some decent combat training (+10 base attack should beat most real world humans), quite some toughness (d4+2 hit points per level should leave him at 50+ plus, so he can still take several gunshots without flinching) and incredibly detailed knowledge in a series of fields that don't exist on Earth.

[Eldan]

depends on how much we are allowing the Wizard to get Know: SCIENCE!. Missiles in DnD either seek or explode. Nukes have the great quality of doing both.

Personally i think the Abrams would equate to firing a No save, No protection non-Death instant kill effect.

Guns, tanks and nukes are in d20 modern. Are we using stats from that? If we are, the wizard can survive it without too much magic.

[Rubik]

If this is the case, then this is just a spite thread right?

Someone who can only beaten with X versus someone who can't get X is pretty much pointless, and spite, so /thread more or less.

Not to mention that a Wizard has high 20s to low 30s INT at that point. Probably with above 10 WIS and CHA if he's worth his salt. Meanwhile Humans have 21-22 Mental Stat at maximum, assuming 6th level peak human. So, no, no outsmarting this guy.By level 20, any decent wizard will likely have between 30 and 40 Int. Of course, if the wizard was really optimizing, he'd have mid-50s, at least.

[Erik Vale]

.. but I thought everybody knew about ghostbusters... my brain hurts and I am depressed to be shown that not everybody does.
There's a difference between knowing and knowing extensive details... I think I've watched it once and it was cool, that's about it...
Oh, and the ghost turning into a marshmellow giant because the guy couldn't empty his thoughts and thought a marshmellow man would be harmless...

[ben-zayb]

By level 20, any decent wizard will likely have between 30 and 40 Int. Of course, if the wizard was really optimizing, he'd have mid-50s, at least.Oops, that's what I meant, actually. My Op fu says 18 + 2 racial + 3 age + 5 inherent + 5 level + 6-8 enhancement

[Angelalex242]

On an older point:

A monk with ki strike/magic should be able to punch a ghost. That's kinda the point of ki strike magic. He still has a 50 percent miss chance, but he can punch it all the same.

As for character classes that might exist in the real world:

Fighter, Rogue, Barbarian, Ranger (no spells variety), Monk.

Of those, only the Monk can hit incorporeal, thanks to ki strike.

[Rubik]

On an older point:

A monk with ki strike/magic should be able to punch a ghost. That's kinda the point of ki strike magic. He still has a 50 percent miss chance, but he can punch it all the same.No. No, they shouldn't, and no, it isn't. They overcome DR/Magic. Their fists are NOT magic, and they don't affect incorporeals like they're magic. It's in the ability description.


As for character classes that might exist in the real world:

Fighter, Rogue, Barbarian, Ranger (no spells variety), Monk.

Of those, only the Monk can hit incorporeal, thanks to ki strike.No.

[Chronos]

Maybe he should be able to, but by RAW, he can't. Ki strike only allows you to overcome DR, not to strike incorporeal creatures.

[Angelalex242]

...and you've uncovered another reason why monks are underpowered. My gaming groups always assumed that 'treated as a magic weapon' meant 'treated as a magic weapon in ALL respects.'

[Rubik]

...and you've uncovered another reason why monks are underpowered. My gaming groups always assumed that 'treated as a magic weapon' meant 'treated as a magic weapon in ALL respects.'Problem is what comes right after. "...for overcoming damage reduction."

[malonkey1]

...and you've uncovered another reason why monks are underpowered. My gaming groups always assumed that 'treated as a magic weapon' meant 'treated as a magic weapon in ALL respects.'

Agreed.

But we still need to figure out how the wizard got here, and how he brought magic with him? Can he replenish his spells as normal, or does he only get the magic he brought with him? Would scientists be able to reverse engineer any of his magic? Could we send in Monks (who receive SR) to slow him down? Would the Wizard be able to defend himself against a Railgun or Rods from God (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rods_from_God)? If he came through a portal, could we capture said portal? If magic works in our world, could we find mystics to help counter his magic, or have people make deals with Satan/insert other evil deity here to become Warlocks? Can divine magic function? Because then the Pope would give us a serious edge.

[Rubik]

SR is a supernatural ability -- ie, magic. Sorry, no supernatural monks.

[Angelalex242]

Are we SURE there's no supernatural monks? Some of the stuff Bruce Lee could do has yet to be duplicated. That was a dude with ki strike adamantine if ever there was one.

[malonkey1]

SR is a supernatural ability -- ie, magic. Sorry, no supernatural monks.

Alright, so a Monk's SR is out. But not all SR is supernatural (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellResistance), we just have to find a way to get nonmagical SR.

[ben-zayb]

Without heading into a bannable discussion, what's the consensus on d&d deities existing? What about pazuzu?

Actually, there could be a mundane solution to incorporeality, but I doubt serrenwood exists on earth.

[Rubik]

Alright, so a Monk's SR is out. But not all SR is supernatural (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellResistance), we just have to find a way to get nonmagical SR.Wait, no, monk SR is Extraordinary, but it's at 13th level.

Real humans don't get anywhere near that high.

[DragonSinged]

I was talking with my buddy earlier today about whether or not various wizards would be able to invade the US and win. Harry Potter wizards we agreed would be defeated easily, while Fairy Tail wizards would have a chance if they played their cards right.

Am I the only person thrown off by this bit? Wouldn't a Harry Potter wizard (without scruples, since that seems to be the basis we're assuming for the D&D wizard) be able to conquer the world pretty easily by starting at the bottom of the hierarchy and quietly saying "Imperio" a lot? Given any government, starting at the bottom, least official introduces you to his boss (Imperio), who introduces you to his boss, so forth and so on up the chain til you reach the top. Top leaders can introduce you to other top leaders.

Granted, the D&D wizard could do the same thing, but it would probably take longer, as HP wizards don't have to worry about spells per day.

I'd say the main factor that would lead to a HP wizard's undoing would be the typical lack of understanding of how Muggle tech and society works.


Ok, back to your regularly scheduled D&D wizard debate. :smalltongue:

[TrueJordan]

No one mentioned Foresight? Cast it once a day, and know what they're planning to do to you as long as they decided to do it to you since the last time you cast it. Or something.
Also, the spell friendly fire will reflect all bullets and tank shells.

Though grenades should do a good job of replicating force damage, he can be able to get out of it with contingent teleport and revivify.

But what spells would he use to raze 'murca?

[Angelalex242]

Is it a premise of the thread that Real Life is E6?

Cause if is, then Bruce Lee was a 6th level monk.

If it isn't, Bruce Lee was possibly a 17 or 18th level monk. He might've even gotten all the way to 20.

And the MMA circuit is full of 10-15th level monks.

[Erik Vale]

There are threads dedicated to it, google dnd destroying the world.

Personal favourite is the metamagiced fimblewinter. Followed closely by Fell Necromancy Animate Dead by a dedicated undead maker. Zombie appocolypse! :smallbiggrin: :smallcool:

Of course, the real world kills the zombies very quickly unfortunately, because the only way not to is to have your head replaced by the idiot ball.

Edit: I don't remember the distinctions for some, but aren't things like MMA normally rather faked/choreographed, and thus better done by bards using perform... I can't remember the specific perform, but there's a perform based on weapon skills, though acting could work.

[toapat]

Also, the spell friendly fire will reflect all bullets and tank shells.

Though grenades should do a good job of replicating force damage, he can be able to get out of it with contingent teleport and revivify.

Tanks dont use targeted attack rolls, they aim at squares. I also refuse to believe that a wizard can react to a dart traveling at a mile a second, with longer range then any of his spells, that kills people by being Near them.

Grenades however, are absolutely Piercing + Fire damage.

[Rubik]

I'm pretty sure the point of it is "real world" vs "D&D wizard." Which means zero magic, lots of high-tech (and low-tech) gadgetry, and not-very-high levels (yes, E6) against a 20th level wizard with full magic and WBL access.

Though I guess we'll need confirmation from the OP for that.

[ArqArturo]

Also, who says the wizard is the villain? They could just as well be a PC. :smallbiggrin:

If that's the case, let us hope he's not an optimizer.

[Erik Vale]

Tanks dont use targeted attack rolls, they aim at squares. I also refuse to believe that a wizard can react to a dart traveling at a mile a second, with longer range then any of his spells, that kills people by being Near them.

Grenades however, are absolutely Piercing + Fire damage.

Not necessarily exactly that, but by RAW they aren't force. However high [really high] powered bombs might do some of their damage through force [imagine what happens when someone in a bomb disposal suit happens to be near a bomb that goes off. They'd be fine if not for the ripped off limbs and liquefied organs.

[malonkey1]

Without heading into a bannable discussion, what's the consensus on d&d deities existing? What about pazuzu?

Actually, there could be a mundane solution to incorporeality, but I doubt serrenwood exists on earth.

For the purpose of this argument, let's say that D&D deities that were part of mythology on our Earth also exist on our Earth. So Forgotten Realms' Tyr would be fair game, for example.

[toapat]

Not necessarily exactly that, but by RAW they aren't force. However high [really high] powered bombs might do some of their damage through force [imagine what happens when someone in a bomb disposal suit happens to be near a bomb that goes off. They'd be fine if not for the ripped off limbs and liquefied organs.

sure, warheads can do that. A handgrenade is designed to spray cubes of steel at high velocity. The best i can give you for a frag grenade is Fire + Pierce + Crush.

there really isnt a way to justify the Wizard being able to survive a Nuke though. I think its pretty much agreed that those things deal either Hellfire or Divine fire damage. Having contingencies for it is entirely out of the question considering how hard it is to get 80 cross class ranks in physics

[Angelalex242]

No, no.

WWF is Bards with Perform.
MMA is Monks actually beating each other.

Well, the deities and demigods book has stats for Olympian Pantheon, Norse Pantheon, Egyptian Pantheon, and others.

I imagine, due to the Avengers movies, Thor is feeling particularly strong right now, as there's just flat out more interest in him then any of the rest at the moment.

[jaydubs]

The real world is just a GM's extremely heavy-handed attempt to nerf casters, and magic in general. Nothing the wizard does works, because the entire universe is just immune to magic, overriding any feats, abilities, powers, rules, or anything else to the contrary.

Ever heard a reliable case of a ghost killing someone? No, because we're all 100% immune to them.

Does magical paint protect people from swords, arrows, and bullets? No, because we all have the ability to ignore magical protections and preparations.

Do people win the lottery with fortune telling? No, because divinations just plain don't work here.

Magic just doesn't work here. Period. There's also a very restrictive level cap.

Any wizard that shows up is just reduced to a delusional madman, who happens to have lots of valuable trinkets (his now defunct magic items). His IQ gets ratcheted back down, because he runs up against this universe's level cap. He ends up a bright man, who has no idea how the world works, and speaks none of the languages. If he survives poverty, insane asylums, and manages to figure out how the world works, he might eventually make his way through college and find a middle class job.

In all likelihood, the wizard crawls into a gutter somewhere, completely deprived of all magical abilities and those that came from class levels, and dies depressed and alone. So ends wizard vs the US, without a shot fired. :smallcool:

Little known fact - The US alone receives on average 40 extraplanar travelers every year, who arrive only to find themselves stranded and powerless. :smalltongue:

[ArqArturo]

MMA is full of Reaping Maulers, if you ask me :smallbiggrin:.

[ben-zayb]

MMA is full of Reaping Maulers, if you ask me :smallbiggrin:.You mean they are unoptimized grapplers?:smallconfused:

[Vogonjeltz]

Ok, then. Wizards book gets destroyed by some accident or circumstance. Lacking any way to memorize new spells, wizard is now just a mortal with bad taste in robes.

[Forum Explorer]

It really really depends on how the physics between the two realities interact. There are some massive absurdities in the D&D verse.

It's like asking what would happen if Bugs Bunny ran off a cliff in our world. Would he do the usual run over air or would he fall? And how much damage would he take from the fall?

[Angelalex242]

Well, you can make a semi decent argument for ghosts.

Google Haunted House.

You can make a semi decent argument for Evil Outsiders too.

Google Exorcism.

You can even make an argument for divinations.

Google Fortune Tellers. Or Ouija boards. Whichever.

But really, the saving grace the army has against the wizard is spells per day. The US has to fight with 'we have reserves' mentality. They may lose 5000, 10000, even 50000 troops taking the wizard down, but the wizard will run out of spells before the army runs out of men.

[ArqArturo]

You mean they are unoptimized grapplers?:smallconfused:

It's all they do! And I know that he's UFC, but I think Brock Lesnar's a Muscle Mage :smallbiggrin:.

[malonkey1]

Wait, no, monk SR is Extraordinary, but it's at 13th level.

Real humans don't get anywhere near that high.

And Bruce Lee is dead...

Call Jackie Chan! He'd probably be a 3-5th level monk with ranks in Perform (it's a class skill for them). If we get him training, he might get to level 13 and stand a chance.

[Rubik]

And Bruce Lee is dead...

Call Jackie Chan! He'd probably be a 3-5th level monk with ranks in Perform (it's a class skill for them). If we get him training, he might get to level 13 and stand a chance.Why isn't that last sentence in sarcasm blue?

Now I'm confused. :smallfrown:

[Angelalex242]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_current_mixed_martial_arts_champions

Even in E6, I'm sure more then a few of those guys are 6th level monks. That's how they got to be title holders in the first place.

[malonkey1]

Why isn't that last sentence in sarcasm blue?

Now I'm confused. :smallfrown:

While it is not technically necessary, it is common practice, and I apologize.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_current_mixed_martial_arts_champions

Even in E6, I'm sure more then a few of those guys are 6th level monks. That's how they got to be title holders in the first place.

TBH, it's probable that they're all or mostly Unarmed Strike fighters. It's honestly more optimal for what they're doing.

[ben-zayb]

It's all they do! And I know that he's UFC, but I think Brock Lesnar's a Muscle Mage :smallbiggrin:.I thought he's a Bardbarian with negative Charisma mod but 1 or 2 ranks in Perform (acting). Nothing Lawful about im to be a monk.:smalltongue:

Other MMA guys might as well be Swordsage or Factotum that also relies on their brain

[Angelalex242]

Debatable. The fighter is relying on feats, lots of feats...

Which at best gives him d3+4 (18 strength) on his unarmed strike, and an AC of 14 (with 18 dex.)

The Monk has d8+4 (18 strength) damage, and an AC of 19 (18 dex, 18 wis, +1 monk bonus).

I don't see how the fighter takes that.

[Mellack]

I would argue that we do have magic. It is in the form of high technology. As Clarke said, "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." We have flamethrowers, sonic and light attacks, scrying via satellites, etc. How many movies show vampires damaged by UV lights?

[toapat]

Actually, thinking about it, if Common = whatever country's local language he pops out in, and if he gets an Ipad fast enough, he probably would never get around to actually conquering things. because of either Facebook, Wikipedia, or any of the sites which have 3rd Ed Char Op causing him to want to commit suicide because there is some wizard who is geometrically more badass out there.

[Rubik]

I would argue that we do have magic. It is in the form of high technology. As Clarke said, "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."Unless you're a shadow or a wizard. Then, it's easily distinguishable.


We have flamethrowers, sonic and light attacks, scrying via satellites, etc. How many movies show vampires damaged by UV lights?Vampires are also burned by the sun as a result of the UV rays therein (ostensibly, anyway). It doesn't have to be a magical sun.

[Codyage]

Does a wizard readily have ways to counter a disease? What about illnesses? Surely a wizard throwing that much magic, might be able to easily get sick or get a human related illness, maybe a type of energy radiation? Heck, do Saves count in our world? If not, that means all disease and poisons are automatic hits, and the wizard needs to cure themselvef.

[toapat]

Does a wizard readily have ways to counter a disease? What about illnesses? Surely a wizard throwing that much magic, might be able to easily get sick or get a human related illness. Heck, do Saves count in our world? If not, that means all disease and poisons are automatic hits, and the wizard needs to cure themselves.

Disease immunity is really easy, as is Poison immunity.

Cyanide should bypass immunity though because you do actually need it in small doses. Granted that only works if the wizard still needs blood and lung function.

[Angelalex242]

Diseases and poisons are fort saves, so even if the wizard does get a fort save, he's going to have a base save of +6, plus his con, which isn't likely to be too great, maybe 14, for a total of +8.

He's got about 30% chance of getting sick from most diseases or poisons. More then that if we drop a chemical warhead on him.

I'm still thinking 'war of attrition' is the best way to get him, though. Just accept the fact we're going to lose 10,000 or more troops killing him, and wait for him to run out of spells per day.

[Forum Explorer]

We might not need to worry at all. After all we don't have STR, DEX, CON, WIS, INT, or CHA scores at all. We also don't have HP at all. We don't have Will saves, Reflex saves, or Fortitude saves. Simply because we are running on a completely different system.

Think about it. How strong we are varies from day to day, and indeed varies throughout the day. My intelligence about one subject does not mean that I suddenly know something about a completely different subject. Even a minor stab wound will lower our ability to move, and can get infected, even kill us.

Basically we don't have stats. And neither does our weaponry. How that would interact with a wizard is houserules territory. So basically it comes down to the DM if a Level 20 Wizard could win or not.

[Bugworlds]

I'm not sure if this has been referenced to, but I'll just leave this here...
War spells (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?306567-War-Spells!-Discussion-and-Application).

[Angelalex242]

War spells require a specific dragon magazine feat.

More to the point, what if this Wizard Planar Bindings or Gates in Outsiders?

[NichG]

Skip the war all-together. In the no-planes, yes-magic scenario the Wizard can take out or dominate any 4-5 well-hidden individuals he wants to each day (assuming Discern Location, Scry, Teleport, Dominate sequence). Thats powerful in a hierarchical government, but once the system has adapted to the premise that a wildcard like that is running around then you'd naturally see the formation of more localized leadership. So the wizard can go spend 24 hours a day pacifying towns, but would lack the administrative resources (no-planes = no-summoning) to hold a significant portion of the territory he can take by unstoppable force.

Over a longer period of time he might be able to create a follower network/cult of people who do his bidding and help to maintain administrative control, but they're all mundane and so are vulnerable to the usual counters.

In the yes-planes, yes-magic scenario then it depends on two factors - does the wizard want to rule or destroy, and did the wizard leave an open portal to his home?

If the wizard wants to rule, he can provide some degree of administrative depth via Gated lieutenants and the like. Directly compelling servitude from said lieutenants is likely to be too XP inefficient given that he won't be earning any XP from his conquest, so it'll come down to whether or not he manages to make a deal with whatever forces are available, and the extent of those forces. In that case, its too dependent on un-knowable details to estimate, but it largely comes down to whether or not the logistics work out. Possible response strategies in this sequence involve scorched earth (make it so things aren't worth conquering or alternately create a honey-trap that lures the wizard into exploring lavish but much smaller ambitions), infiltration (if the wizard is logistically struggling, then he's not going to have time to Dominate/Mind Rape everyone who joins his cult, so some level of precision response is possible, etc). What it comes down to is that the Wizard's magic, while a powerful tactical tool, isn't an incredibly scalable one, which is basically the main weakness to exploit.

If the wizard wants to destroy, the timescale is much shorter, but the shadow-pocalypse isn't actually as big of a threat as the math suggests because of the behavioral characteristics of Shadows - they don't actively seek prey, but hang out in dark places to ambush prey. That means that large, nearly-unpopulated areas would basically be safe unless directly targeted - even places with strategic 'nest' locations might be safe depending how lazy shadows are in practice. So that provides a year or so for response. Another important thing is that incorporeal creatures must explicitly remain adjacent to the exterior of objects - they can't pass through objects larger than their square (curiously this is in the Incorporeal subtype, not the Incorporeal status condition). So a sealed underground bunker or even just a building fully enclosed by 6-ft thick walls is completely shadow-proof.

This also suggests that entombing shadows within a 6ft cube of cement could in principle cause them to shunt for 1d6 damage. Further experimentation obviously required. Also relevant is that holy water is explicitly called out as working on incorporeal undead despite being non-magical, so its unnecessary for real-life holy water to be in any way supernatural to qualify - by the rules - as something that can hurt them.

The possible range of response in the situation varies. If a portal to the wizard's home is lying around somewhere, then that's something that can be found, traversed, and the usual counters from their home brought back. That'd be enough to start countering the shadow-pocalypse at the very least, and so provides a possible win route for the mundanes. If there is no portal, then it comes down to R&D-style 'unknowables' - are there any materials that would work against incorporeals but whose properties are unknown because there are no incorporeals to test against? Can one harvest dirt where the wizard has cast a bunch of 9th level spells, distill it, and improvise a potion of Magic Weapon? Can one observe the wizard and replicate what he's doing? Etc.

[Rubik]

Also relevant is that holy water is explicitly called out as working on incorporeal undead despite being non-magical, so its unnecessary for real-life holy water to be in any way supernatural to qualify - by the rules - as something that can hurt them.Except the only way to get actual holy water (and not just water that someone spits in or something and calls holy water) is via the Bless Water spell -- which we don't have.

[Angelalex242]

...I can't answer that without getting into the topic a mod already warned me about. Suffice to say, counter arguments exist.

[Rubik]

...I can't answer that without getting into the topic a mod already warned me about. Suffice to say, counter arguments exist.Except, again, the only holy water that will harm a shadow is that created via Bless Water. The bargain basement stuff won't even make one wet.

[CyberThread]

I think godzilla would kill the wizard

[Rubik]

I think godzilla would kill the wizardAnd then the wizard casts Astral Projection again, casts Dominate Monster on the kaiju, and repeats the process until it succeeds.

And then he laughs maniacally.

After all, you can't have slaughter without laughter.

[ryu]

I think godzilla would kill the wizard

Nah. We're well equipped to take out most iterations of godzilla considering we have considerably more physical force at our disposal than he has, and that's without any nuke related tech. That is unless you think all human war tech stopped advancing at world war 2.

[Angelalex242]

http://www.chucknorrisfacts.com/all-chuck-norris-facts

We're safe. Chuck Norris has the 20th level wizard totally handled.

Chuck Norris considers Pun Pun unoptimized.

[Rubik]

http://www.chucknorrisfacts.com/all-chuck-norris-facts

We're safe. Chuck Norris has the 20th level wizard totally handled.Or maybe he IS the wizard. In that case, may Pun Pun help us all.

[ben-zayb]

Nah. We're well equipped to take out most iterations of godzilla considering we have considerably more physical force at our disposal than he has, and that's without any nuke related tech. That is unless you think all human war tech stopped advancing at world war 2.I'm not a godzilla expert but I very much doubt any puny country buster could nick zilla.

And forget chuck norris. Real world have toon force, so eat your heart out, wish-trappers.

[NichG]

Except the only way to get actual holy water (and not just water that someone spits in or something and calls holy water) is via the Bless Water spell -- which we don't have.

Oddly enough, I do not believe the rules actually make that distinction. By a strict reading, the item entry for Holy Water does not specify its source. So while Bless Water is capable of making Holy Water, there's no rules text that says that it is in fact the only way to do so. So it may in fact be sufficient to 'spit in it and call it holy water', assuming that particular process is consistent with the production of a substance commonly called 'holy water' that served as the original inspiration for the substance in D&D.

Since its explicitly called out as non-magical, that opens up the door to non-magical means of producing it.

[AnonymousPepper]

Say, don't explosions deal force damage?

[ryu]

I'm not a godzilla expert but I very much doubt any puny country buster could nick zilla.

And forget chuck norris. Real world have toon force, so eat your heart out, wish-trappers.

Who said anything about a country buster? Armor piercing explosive missile. Target either chest to reduce its heart and lungs to paste, or the base of the skull for decapitation. Also lots of them fired in salvos just to head off any argument about knocking them out of the air with the breath weapon which can only go so long at a burst. Also the missiles can be fired from several miles out of range of said breath weapon to head off ideas of attacking the silo. That's not the worst we could do either. That's just the easy first solution idea.

[ben-zayb]

Say, don't explosions deal force damage?
You could say it deals shock wave, but I doubt that's the same as D&D force.

Who said anything about a country buster? Armor piercing explosive missile. Target either chest to reduce its heart and lungs to paste, or the base of the skull for decapitation. Also lots of them fired in salvos just to head off any argument about knocking them out of the air with the breath weapon which can only go so long at a burst. Also the missiles can be fired from several miles out of range of said breath weapon to head off ideas of attacking the silo. That's not the worst we could do either. That's just the easy first solution idea.Can humans withstand or reproduce the force equivalent or near strength of a black hole, though? That's the sort of thing that Godzilla has in his feat list.Godzilla minimal feats, probably not detailed enough to explain his best. (http://godzilla.wikia.com/wiki/Godzilla)

[evangaline]

We have agreed the earth has level 6 as a level cap right, I will then recommend iron heart surge.

Yes, Iron heart surge.
Your fighting spirit, dedication, and training allow you to overcome almost anything to defeat your enemies. When you use this maneuver, select one spell, effect, or other condition currently affecting you and with a duration of 1 or more rounds. That effect ends immediately. You also surge with confidence and vengeance against your enemies, gaining a +2 morale bonus on attack rolls until the end of your next turn.
Let's say the existance of the wizard is affecting you in a negative way. You will just end his existance.

[Codyage]

We have agreed the earth has level 6 as a level cap right, I will then recommend iron heart surge.

Yes, Iron heart surge.
Your fighting spirit, dedication, and training allow you to overcome almost anything to defeat your enemies. When you use this maneuver, select one spell, effect, or other condition currently affecting you and with a duration of 1 or more rounds. That effect ends immediately. You also surge with confidence and vengeance against your enemies, gaining a +2 morale bonus on attack rolls until the end of your next turn.
Let's say the existance of the wizard is affecting you in a negative way. You will just end his existance.

That only works on things with a duration of 1 or more rounds. Technically, if the Wizard exists in less than a round, it doesn't apply. Or the Wizard kills you before you can use it.

[ryu]

You could say it deals shock wave, but I doubt that's the same as D&D force.
Can humans withstand or reproduce the force equivalent or near strength of a black hole, though? That's the sort of thing that Godzilla has in his feat list.Godzilla minimal feats, probably not detailed enough to explain his best. (http://godzilla.wikia.com/wiki/Godzilla)

Oh a black hole? How quaint. We're actually working on producing those manually for study in lab conditions. Fun fact kids: Not all black holes are created equal. Their influence radius and event horizon expand based on how much mass is actually held inside them. With enough force you can briefly create a black hole from just about any sort of matter. Turns out they can be incredibly easy to destabilize and essentially decay into basic energy at small sizes.

[ben-zayb]

Oh a black hole? How quaint. IWe're actually working on producing those manually for study in lab conditions. Fun fact kids: Not all black holes are created equal. Their influence radius and event horizon expand based on how much mass is actually held inside them. With enough force you can briefly create a black hole from just about any sort of matter. Turns out they can be incredibly easy to destabilize and essentially decay into basic energy at small sizes.That's great! Shouldn't be too hard to replicate and demonstrate the power and extent done in the movies then, right? Go right ahead!

[DeltaEmil]

It actually doesn't matter if nukes or grenades did force damage or not, because the force damage doesn't come from a magical source. All magical force damage does is that there isn't a 50% miss chance for it to not affect an incorporeal creature. So it's even worse.

Also, the shadowpocalypse ends the world in the shortest time possible because the first shadow created by the wizard will have the order to order its spawns to actively seek out other humans and animals and turn them into shadows, and then order their spawns to do the same, and so on.

[ryu]

That's great! Shouldn't be too hard to replicate and demonstrate the power and extent done in the movies then, right? Go right ahead!

http://news.discovery.com/space/first-ever-black-hole-created-on-earth.htm

Done. Keep in mind that if a black hole of actual range of influence and power had been created in the movie or reality the earth would've been done. That is assuming of course that the film makers knew the first thing about the physics of what a black hole actually is.

[Ashtagon]

I was about to ask, could this 20th level wizard set up a school and teach us (That is, even me and you, the people posting on this forum) how to cast actual magic?{Scrubbed}

[Kurald Galain]

Anyone here read Watchmen?

Good. Check out the character of Ozymandias, said to be the smartest human alive. Setting up an exceedingly lucrative business empire like that is well within the capabilities of any character with 30 intelligence, regardless of the whole debate on whether technology works against magic or not.

[Angelalex242]

If anybody could learn magic off this wizard, then eventually, he'll fall. Because D&D players the world over have all sorts of practical knowledge of magic from playing the game so darn long, and sooner or later, as soon as that wizard appeared, somebody would successfully cast a cantrip. Then they'd cast magic missile. Then they'd be an official 1st level wizard.

And then, knowing XP is generally gained by killing things, they'd go homicidal for a while, trying to master more magic....

[ben-zayb]

http://news.discovery.com/space/first-ever-black-hole-created-on-earth.htm

Done. Keep in mind that if a black hole of actual range of influence and power had been created in the movie or reality the earth would've been done. That is assuming of course that the film makers knew the first thing about the physics of what a black hole actually is.So for short... they can't reproduce what I asked. You missed my point in that I'm not contesting lab created black holes, I am contesting its current military potency vs zilla's durability. Anyway, i believe this belongs in another subforum (media), so posting it there for further discussion might be better so as not to derail this thread.


On topic, I guess the more logical question is what the minimum level for a Wizard would be to beat the US, and then the world.

[Jormengand]

condition

The existence of a Wizard is not a condition. (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/conditions.htm)

Also, the existence of a wizard has a duration of instantaneous, otherwise you could dispel him.

[ryu]

So for short... they can't reproduce what I asked. You missed my point in that I'm not contesting lab created black holes, I am contesting its current military potency vs zilla's durability. Anyway, i believe this belongs in another subforum (media), so posting it there for further discussion might be better so as not to derail this thread.


On topic, I guess the more logical question is what the minimum level for a Wizard would be to beat the US, and then the world.

You do realize that an actual black hole large enough to have legitimate effect on anything in a military capacity would be an immediate threat to the planet itself such that it likely didn't happen in the movie either right? That godzilla would be dead by his own attack long before it became relevant to anyone else? Basic knowledge of physics dictates that, no, that's not a thing. It's literally less believable than magic. Magic doesn't necessitate the immediate death of the one using it by known applications of physics.

[Togo]

The problem here is that we have two conflicting 'systems', D&D and the real world.

In D&D system it's reasonable for all sorts of things in real life to have adjudicated in game effects, so for the wizard to take over, he needs to take over before earthlings work out what works to stop him. What works and what doesn't will ultimately be an GM call.

In real-world system, the wizard may not have any powers at all, but even if he does, it's reasonably straightforward to stop him. His powers, effects and allies are all subject to real-world constraints and ultimately there is very little he can do that can't be replicated or countered in some way.

If you use both systems, it gets a bit weird. Guns work according to the real-world, magic works according to D&D logic, and thus immunities can't be relied upon. The most likely outcome there is that the wizard does well until he runs into a group of Cthulu cultists, who proceed to demonstrate exactly why feeble magics like wish can't stand up to entities from beyond time and space. There's always someone more powerful than you.

What isn't sensible is to just say that D&D has rules for things, the real world doesn't, and therefore the real world just can't do anything. Yes a wizard could take over the world on that basis, but then so could a Magical Pony take over this world on the basis that friendship is magic, and we can't stop magic. By the same argument, Care Bears could defeat 20th level wizards, because there is no protection against a Care Bear tummy beam, which can effect entire planets, and D&D has nothing that can specifically stop it.

[I3igAl]

By the same argument, Care Bears could defeat 20th level wizards, because there is no protection against a Care Bear tummy beam, which can effect entire planets, and D&D has nothing that can specifically stop it.

Nope even if it really affects entire planets.
a) High-level wizards, monsters and more powerful entities would have ways to avoid, that beam(Teleporting away[if necessary via contingency], Astral Projection, Scrying to strike first etc.).
b) The D&D cosmoslogy has multiple infinte planes. Being able to hit an entire planet won't be enough.
c) The Care Bear stare never put down their villains permanently, only drove them off. The D&D creatures would just come back for revenge.
d) The care Bears are pretty dense and can easily be tricked. As nearly every episode shows.

________

Such a debate works well, if we just look at what both parties can do. There might be a few cornercases (Would Care bear stare work in an Anitmagic field?), but in general one can easily compare characters capabilities.
USA: Use nuclear weapons, use bioweapons, outnumbers the wizard etc.
Wizard: Charm/Dominate, Shapechange to infiltrate, Summon, Create Undead, Send Astral Projections etc.
_________
The wizard wins this easily if he does it right, using one of the methods already mentioned in the thread.

Btw, there are no lvl6 monks in the real world. No UFC Fighter could take on a CR3 Lion, or even a CR2 Ape with his bare hands, if the Animal is serious.

[malonkey1]

Well, let's transpose everything into an approximation in a universal system, such as GURPS.

[Hecuba]

Except, again, the only holy water that will harm a shadow is that created via Bless Water. The bargain basement stuff won't even make one wet.

Hum? I was under the impression that temples of Good deities produce and sell it at cost (regardless of whether they have any spell casters to cast bless water).
A shadow is at least marginally more questionable than non-undead incorporeal creatures.

But that doesn't matter because there are, in fact, non-undead incorporeal creatures.
They are marginally harder to get and they don't reproduce like shadows, but that is a question of speed.
Unless we add a timeframe, that's not a problem when dealing with this kind of asymmetry.

This means that, unless we fiat some form of Real-world energy to be magical, the question is not whether the wizard can win but how quickly and efficiently they can do so.

[malonkey1]

This means that, unless we fiat some form of Real-world energy to be magical

Well, if you believe that huckster Deepak Chopra, then "quantum physics" is basically magical.

[ryu]

Well, if you believe that huckster Deepak Chopra, then "quantum physics" is basically magical.

I'm pretty sure we have no way of meaningfully harnessing that in a combat sense even if we did make that rule.

[Hecuba]

Well, if you believe that huckster Deepak Chopra, then "quantum physics" is basically magical.

IF

we accept that
AND
we can somehow weaponize the LHC & company
AND
we fiat that it deals a kind of damage that we cannot readily make our killer incorporeal adds immune to*
THEN we have a very small number of non-disposable weapons capable of harming our explicitly disposable minions while we take afternoon tea in some safe location.

So again, we're at questions of speed and efficiency and not capacity.


*Fire water earth air and positive are all all easy. Negative is even more trivial, though not for non-undead.

[malonkey1]

I'm pretty sure we have no way of meaningfully harnessing that in a combat sense even if we did make that rule.

Design a blade that can quantum-tunnel? That'd take a lot of energy and more know-how than we yet have, but as my Nana always said, evil wizards are the mother of invention.

My Nana was around when Rasputin was.

[warmachine]

D&D rules outline natural laws that are unsupported nonsense in the real world and are therefore incompatible. D&D is a completely different reality to ours and a character with power from it in ours is nonsense. Unless a reality can invade another, such as in the RPG Torg.

Our world, 'Core Earth', has a low magic level, so almost all the wizard's spells would fail unless he expends Possibility Energy to temporarily adjust local reality so they do. He would quickly run out of energy and transform into a person who only understands Core Earth reality.

It is possible to create zones containing another reality's laws (I've forgotten the details) but they're usually a mixture of Core Earth and foreign laws, and unstable as status can suddenly switch from pure, dominance or equally mixed between competing realities. A wizard would still find his spells not entirely reliable.

Worse, Core Earth reality is so powerful, it would crush the D&D reality zones. The wizard would need other realities to invade other regions of the world to divide the Core Earth pressure.

[ryu]

D&D rules outline natural laws that are unsupported nonsense in the real world and are therefore incompatible. D&D is a completely different reality to ours and a character with power from it in ours is nonsense. Unless a reality can invade another, such as in the RPG Torg.

Our world, 'Core Earth', has a low magic level, so almost all the wizard's spells would fail unless he expends Possibility Energy to temporarily adjust local reality so they do. He would quickly run out of energy and transform into a person who only understands Core Earth reality.

It is possible to create zones containing another reality's laws (I've forgotten the details) but they're usually a mixture of Core Earth and foreign laws, and unstable as status can suddenly switch from pure, dominance or equally mixed between competing realities. A wizard would still find his spells not entirely reliable.

Worse, Core Earth reality is so powerful, it would crush the D&D reality zones. The wizard would need other realities to invade other regions of the world to divide the Core Earth pressure.

Acorn of far travel. Done. It's a temporarily item that wields the explicit and unflappable power to impose the laws of a given place on the person holding it with a timer of days that can easily be replaced regularly.

Alternatively planar bubbles.

[dascarletm]

Weird how these wizards just always seem to have the right item for the job... even if it isn't all that common to have.

[Hecuba]

Weird how these wizards just always seem to have the right item for the job... even if it isn't all that common to have.

They're planning on invading a country on a different planet in a different universe: I'd assume they did some basic cursory prep (at least the amount I would expect them to do for traveling to another plane).

[ryu]

That and for goodness sake the it's not even necessary to craft for. All you need to do is have something with druid casting cast the second level spell for you. This thing is cheap to replace by all accounts even if you have to go find a druid on your own plane to pay for the service.

[warmachine]

Are planar bubbles and acorns of far travel big enough to cover a major country?

Also, these may be products of D&D physics, not Torg meta-physics, so they may simply be impossible in Core Earth reality. Are the D&D planes similar but different realities or merely variations of the same reality? A curious question.

[Jormengand]

Also, these may be products of D&D physics

That may be because we're assuming a D&D rule set here.

[Shining Wrath]

The United States wins, eventually.

Because once you have ONE level 20 wizard showing that it's possible, then Berkeley + MIT + Harvard + Oxford + Cambridge + Sorbonne + every other gathering of brilliant minds on the planet gets extremely motivated to figure out how he's doing it.

Since you've brought D&D magic into our real world, that magic is obtainable by people in this world. To put it another way, whatever power source a D&D wizard taps into in Eberron or Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk MUST also exist in our real world. Otherwise the D&D wizard has no power.

And I'm betting on all the world's geniuses figuring out how to access that power sooner or later, probably sooner.

Does your wizard understand the Internet? Can he dominate every genius on the planet? Can he use divination to figure out where they are about to understand how he does it - every time, every place? I think not. Sooner or later, someone else figures it out.

Then you've got 100,000 level 1 wizards on their way to level 20 as fast as they can manage, all over the world.

I suppose our L20 wizard can suppress all this research. But it'll be a more than full time job, leaving him little or no time for actual conquering type activities, and even less for rape and pillage or whatever else it was that motivated him to conquer in the first place. If all else fails, we win because he gets bored of the constant effort required to keep an entire planet down.

EDIT: Acorns of far travel and planar bubbles can't function in a place where magic doesn't work at all, as they are magical items. They do not overrule my basic assumption that if a L20 wizard exists on earth then magic is accessible to earthlings, if they can but learn how.

[DragonSinged]

Something else to take into consideration is that this wizard only acts something like once every six seconds. Not true for everyone else in the world, including those with fully automatic weapons.

[ben-zayb]

Sadly, motivation alone won't hold water. That's like me asking you to imagine a new colour. And apparently, humans have been observing the known world and its borders for quite some time, both in micro and macro level. Yet not all questions concerning them have been explained.

So yeah, I wouldn't bet a lot if I were you.

And that's assuming wizards leave behind an observable trace of magical. Because in D&D rules, it doesn't matter if you have 1000 INT. Spellcraft is a Trained Only skill, and that's about your only chance to identify an instantaneous duration spell. For those with duration, you can use Detec Magic to know basic info. Oops, but humans can't do that, either.

[Kurald Galain]

And that's assuming wizards leave behind an observable trace of magical. Because in D&D rules, it doesn't matter if you have 1000 INT. Spellcraft is a Trained Only skill, and that's about your only chance to identify an instantaneous duration spell.
Sure it's trained only. But anyone can put a point in it when he levels up, and that's a simple matter of hunting wildlife for about a week (or any other method of "defeating encounters", which most sales and customer service jobs would arguably qualify for).

[ben-zayb]

Sure it's trained only. But anyone can put a point in it when he levels up, and that's a simple matter of hunting wildlife for about a week (or any other method of "defeating encounters", which most sales and customer service jobs would arguably qualify for).But the other side explicitly insist they use a different ruleset, so nope. No D&D Spellcraft.

[Inevitability]

Spellcraft is not a supernatural ability, so it would be reasonable to assume that by studying the wizard, we can actually take ranks in it.

But well, the wizard just wins. He can travel billions of years back in time, control the evolution of the first lifeforms, then shape the world as he pleases.

[Crazysaneman]

There is no magic in the real world. Even if there was, the system of using it could potentially differ from what the wizard's natural power source would be. Given that our system of magic would almost certainly be different from his, he would have to learn how this plane of existence works before he could corrupt it with his power. Not even to mention that there is precedent for going from one campaign setting to another (faerun to dragonlance). You lose your power until you can familiarize yourself with the local system and function of magic. This could be terribly difficult in the real world (no source material to study and learn from) and dangerous (could turn out to be a wild magic zone) for him.
For example: there are both positive and negative effects of using certain magics on non material planes. For example the positive and negative planes have deferring effects on positive and negative effects.
Even if he could figure out a way to force foreign magic systems into our plane of existence, he would be doing it at great peril. What if he goes to cast that charm person to corrupt a billionaire like Bill Gates or a president like Obama, and this plane being a wild magic zone it instead targets the spellcaster with trap the soul no save (into the hope diamond for you).

To set some groundwork for this part we will assume the following:
1. race is human. If the caster did have to research and force magic into existence, its hard to hide being a elf while at the local library.
2. With no magic to use until he forces it into existence, there are no spells cast on him. permanencied and persisted spells would immediately end on entering this existence as there are no structures to keep them in play.
3. no astral projection world domination shenannigans. see 2. would have to planeshift here and be stuck on arrival.
That being said, provided he did the research and figured out a way to force magic into reality, then it would come to being a psychological question on what type of person the wizard is.
If he is clever, it would take him a scant few months to learn one of any of our languages. Dependent on where he planeshifted into, he may or may not go unnoticed. There are some major differences between planeshifting into Times Square at lunch hour and shifting into the middle of the Australian outback.
Is he patient or not? Literally patience would mean everything when he got here. From learning the language, and earning the money somehow to travel to where he needs to go to study, it could potentially take decades to regain his power.
Is he willing to share the power that he forces into reality? A new caster practices using low level spells. Seems obvious right? If he did figure out a way to force magic into our reality, he would have to practice with it, albeit at an somewhat accelerated rate once he can make correlations between this and his native systems. A wizard casting prestidigitation, and magic missile and other spells to practice with would go noticed by someone. Would he share the power or kill anyone who noticed? You can only kill so many people before someone with real weapons comes for you. Shield and Mage armor won't protect from all those bullets for long. Before he achieved his full power, it would be shown on the news that this guy is killing folks with magic. Someone would see and figure out the system he's using. With time someone high enough up would hear about the weaknesses inherit in the system the caster is using and drown him in bodies.
Finally, assume that he does get his power back. All knowing, unlimited power. Torn from the very fabric of reality, he molds and shapes existence at his whim. We have evolution on our side. Whenever a great cataclysm affects this planet, evolution happens at an accelerated rate. Somehow, in some way, a defense against this caster would arise. In fiction, it ends up being someone like Harry Dresden, Dr. Strange, or similar heroes and organizations that realize sudden, immense power. On the other hand, there is the evolutionary "rewind" button like in Shadowrun. The whole world changes in rebellion.

TLDR; Nope, would have to be a MONUMENTAL alignment of stars, luck, and about 10,000 nat 20's to work.

[ryu]

The United States wins, eventually.

Because once you have ONE level 20 wizard showing that it's possible, then Berkeley + MIT + Harvard + Oxford + Cambridge + Sorbonne + every other gathering of brilliant minds on the planet gets extremely motivated to figure out how he's doing it.

Since you've brought D&D magic into our real world, that magic is obtainable by people in this world. To put it another way, whatever power source a D&D wizard taps into in Eberron or Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk MUST also exist in our real world. Otherwise the D&D wizard has no power.

And I'm betting on all the world's geniuses figuring out how to access that power sooner or later, probably sooner.

Does your wizard understand the Internet? Can he dominate every genius on the planet? Can he use divination to figure out where they are about to understand how he does it - every time, every place? I think not. Sooner or later, someone else figures it out.

Then you've got 100,000 level 1 wizards on their way to level 20 as fast as they can manage, all over the world.

I suppose our L20 wizard can suppress all this research. But it'll be a more than full time job, leaving him little or no time for actual conquering type activities, and even less for rape and pillage or whatever else it was that motivated him to conquer in the first place. If all else fails, we win because he gets bored of the constant effort required to keep an entire planet down.

EDIT: Acorns of far travel and planar bubbles can't function in a place where magic doesn't work at all, as they are magical items. They do not overrule my basic assumption that if a L20 wizard exists on earth then magic is accessible to earthlings, if they can but learn how.

You do realize the wizard is fully capable of simply forcing the entire planet into the dark ages on a whim right? A level 20 wizard is the closest thing to a manifest deity we on earth would've have ever met. I don't make that claim lightly either.

[Svata]

Introducing the wizard to TvTropes might work. In my experience, the smarter you are, the longer you're trapped.

[Rubik]

You do realize the wizard is fully capable of simply forcing the entire planet into the dark ages on a whim right? A level 20 wizard is the closest thing to a manifest deity we on earth would've have ever met. I don't make that claim lightly either.Pretty much this.

He can time travel at will (into the past and future both); blow stuff up at a whim; create matter from nothing; alter the fabric of the human mind; control our dreamscapes; pull unimaginably powerful horrors from beyond to do his bidding; create and control automatons made of flesh, bone, and even souls; initiate a hundred different types of apocalypses; survive the worst poisons, artillery, energy blasts, and natural disasters we can throw at him; level cities; control the weather; collapse the very earth we stand upon; attain any information not also protected by magic; fly; teleport interstellar distances instantaneously with pinpoint accuracy; survive the deathtrap of outer space; build a fortress on the moon; hollow out the planet; permanently transmute his enemies into gerbils; augment his own physical and mental abilities to ridiculous levels (through shapechanging magic and otherwise); move around entirely undetected anywhere he wants; manipulate the flow of time; perform pretty much any mundane action he pleases; and thousands of things mundanes can neither do ourselves nor defend ourselves against.

Basically, there's really no question whatsoever about who would "win."

Because, really, why would he consent to enter a reality where his magic wouldn't work without ensuring he can overcome that limitation without issue? That's about the only thing stopping him from walking all over us, should he choose to do so.

About the only thing capable of standing up to a high level wizard is another high level wizard (or, at least, something with high level wizard casting). We don't have that.

[DeltaEmil]

Hum? I was under the impression that temples of Good deities produce and sell it at cost (regardless of whether they have any spell casters to cast bless water).Well, the material component for the bless water spell is 5 pounds of silver dust worth 25 gold total. That's the same price that a bottle of holy water costs (apparently, the bottle is worth nothing, no matter if it were glass, wood, ceramic, or riverine).

[ryu]

Well, the material component for the bless water spell is 5 pounds of silver dust worth 25 gold total. That's the same price that a bottle of holy water costs (apparently, the bottle is worth nothing, no matter if it were glass, wood, ceramic, or riverine).

And now I know how to make even more of a killing off the legend of zelda economy as early as level 9. Bottles! Empty bottles for everyone!

[Inevitability]

We actually have a glimmer of hope. Maybe, just maybe, some deity takes offense to conquering an entire world that can't defend itself and sends an Aleax at the wizard. That, combined with a mass attack from every single person on the planet may be enough to kill the wizard and his backup bodies.

[DeltaEmil]

We actually have a glimmer of hope. Maybe, just maybe, some deity takes offense to conquering an entire world that can't defend itself and sends an Aleax at the wizard. That, combined with a mass attack from every single person on the planet may be enough to kill the wizard and his backup bodies.Some wizards offend the gods on purpose so that they can capture the Aleax-version of themselves and then mind-switch with it to have an undefeatable body. So, not a good idea.

[ryu]

Some wizards offend the gods on purpose so that they can capture the Aleax-version of themselves and then mind-switch with it to have an undefeatable body. So, not a good idea.

As a matter of fact it's quite possible the wizard already did it.

[kellbyb]

They're planning on invading a country on a different planet in a different universe: I'd assume they did some basic cursory prep (at least the amount I would expect them to do for traveling to another plane).

No kidding. If I was planning an excursion to an unknown plane I'd take some of everything and stick it in several jumbo-sized bags of holding, no matter how rare or esoteric it is..

[malonkey1]

As a matter of fact it's quite possible the wizard already did it.

The deity sends another Aleax. Mind-swapping is pointless, and now it's a permanent battle between two nigh-godly forces. The mere mortals set up the arena in favor of the Aleax (the Aleax Aleax, not the Wizard Aleax), and the Aleax wins.

Or the deity just dissolves the Aleax body the Wizard took control of.

[dascarletm]

They're planning on invading a country on a different planet in a different universe: I'd assume they did some basic cursory prep (at least the amount I would expect them to do for traveling to another plane).

That is another assumption I see. The wizard is the aggressor.

[ryu]

The deity sends another Aleax. Mind-swapping is pointless, and now it's a permanent battle between two nigh-godly forces. The mere mortals set up the arena in favor of the Aleax (the Aleax Aleax, not the Wizard Aleax), and the Aleax wins.

Or the deity just dissolves the Aleax body the Wizard took control of.

1: You can't be aleaxed more than once. Period. Basic rule of how this works.

2: The aleax can't be harmed or hindered save by the person it's a copy of. Being dissolved is a very hindering thing.

[malonkey1]

1: You can't be aleaxed more than once. Period. Basic rule of how this works.

2: The aleax can't be harmed or hindered save by the person it's a copy of. Being dissolved is a very hindering thing.

Wait! You can't mind-switch an Aleax! It's a construct, ergo immune to mind-affecting effects. Switching minds would certainly be mind-affecting.

[Malimar]

[...]what's the consensus on [...] pazuzu?

Well, I just said "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu" out loud, and Pazuzu didn't show, so he, at least, appears to be a no.

[ryu]

Wait! You can't mind-switch an Aleax! It's a construct, ergo immune to mind-affecting effects. Switching minds would certainly be mind-affecting.

We have ways around that. My personal favorite is psychoactive skin of proteus. I believe this was also one of Tippy's favorites.

[malonkey1]

We have ways around that. My personal favorite is psychoactive skin of proteus. I believe this was also one of Tippy's favorites.

Wouldn't the Aleax have to deploy that for it to work? According to the SRD:


As a standard action, a psychoactive skin spreads over and covers a Medium or smaller creature that projects the proper command thought...

The Aleax would have to project the command thought, and I don't think he'd be willing to do that, seeing as he's just as smart as Mr. Wizard, and probably would have already thought of that.

[ryu]

Wouldn't the Aleax have to deploy that for it to work? According to the SRD:



The Aleax would have to project the command thought, and I don't think he'd be willing to do that, seeing as he's just as smart as Mr. Wizard, and probably would have already thought of that.

We also have ways of forcing that. Ice assassin it and make the ice assassin where the skin.

[Inevitability]

Well, I just said "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu" out loud, and Pazuzu didn't show, so he, at least, appears to be a no.

But do you have a +24 modifier to knowledge (the planes)? I think not. If you don't there's no way to make sure he can't be summoned. It'd be improbable, but still possible.

[Angelalex242]

If the wizard can get here, what's to stop your average D&D party from following him here and ganking him for XP?

[malonkey1]

If the wizard can get here, what's to stop your average D&D party from following him here and ganking him for XP?

I'd actually play that campaign. You play a mixed party of Earth humans and D&D adventurers. You'd probably need some homebrew classes though, as most Earthers would only have access to NPC classes otherwise.

[Shining Wrath]

You do realize the wizard is fully capable of simply forcing the entire planet into the dark ages on a whim right? A level 20 wizard is the closest thing to a manifest deity we on earth would've have ever met. I don't make that claim lightly either.

I am unaware of any spell that affects 7 billion people with no save allowed.

[ryu]

I am unaware of any spell that affects 7 billion people with no save allowed.

Teleport through time and screw with the timestream such that none of the people currently alive today were ever born? What part of closest thing to deity imaginable are you not internalizing?

[Shining Wrath]

Teleport through time and screw with the timestream such that none of the people currently alive today were ever born? What part of closest thing to deity imaginable are you not internalizing?

In which case the wizard is not conquering the United States, or planet earth. He's conquering some dirt. In fact, why would he bother coming into the plane after it was populated if he could enter earlier when it was unpopulated, if those people had no meaning to him.

Strong anthromorphic principle: if the wizard is conquering the United States, the wizard wants the United States, not a never-inhabited wilderness occupying the same location on the planetary surface. Otherwise, as you point out, there would not BE a United States.

So based on the OP question, there are limits to what the wizard can do. He can't exterminate humanity back when humanity was a few people. He can't change history so much that there is no longer a United States, or such that the United States is so different from the current one that it's no longer recognizable as such.

Now - given that the wizard wants to conquer a recognizable United States populated by pretty much the same people that inhabit it now - how does he prevent those people, some of whom are brilliant even by the standards of a D&D wizard, from emulating his powers?

[ryu]

In which case the wizard is not conquering the United States, or planet earth. He's conquering some dirt. In fact, why would he bother coming into the plane after it was populated if he could enter earlier when it was unpopulated, if those people had no meaning to him.

Strong anthromorphic principle: if the wizard is conquering the United States, the wizard wants the United States, not a never-inhabited wilderness occupying the same location on the planetary surface. Otherwise, as you point out, there would not BE a United States.

So based on the OP question, there are limits to what the wizard can do. He can't exterminate humanity back when humanity was a few people. He can't change history so much that there is no longer a United States, or such that the United States is so different from the current one that it's no longer recognizable as such.

Now - given that the wizard wants to conquer a recognizable United States populated by pretty much the same people that inhabit it now - how does he prevent those people, some of whom are brilliant even by the standards of a D&D wizard, from emulating his powers?

You don't think the united states is significantly older than the oldest living human? Do you even history?

[Togo]

Given that we're assuming magic works in the real world, why wouldn't various already-existing magical forces or powers just snuff the wizard out like a candle. We're not short on myths, legends, or descriptions of beings much more powerful than a mere wizard.

Also, time travel is problematical. In our world he'd have to deal with the physics consequences of time travel, not the D&D rules for time travel, which assume a D&D universe. In which case he travels back in time, changes stuff, gets shunted to alternative multiverse bubble (or branched finite universe stream) and is entirely unable to complete his goal.

[dascarletm]

I think a small finite number of spells per day is going to hurt said wizard when it comes to taking out a group so large, especially if it is mobilized against the target.

Though I'd like to see some actual hypothetical builds, instead of... whatever is going on now.

EDIT:


Given that we're assuming magic works in the real world, why wouldn't various already-existing magical forces or powers just snuff the wizard out like a candle. We're not short on myths, legends, or descriptions of beings much more powerful than a mere wizard.

Also, time travel is problematical. In our world he'd have to deal with the physics consequences of time travel, not the D&D rules for time travel, which assume a D&D universe. In which case he travels back in time, changes stuff, gets shunted to alternative multiverse bubble (or branched finite universe stream) and is entirely unable to complete his goal.

Don't forget the wizard would probably be billions of miles away in space, though that is debatable.

[ryu]

Given that we're assuming magic works in the real world, why wouldn't various already-existing magical forces or powers just snuff the wizard out like a candle. We're not short on myths, legends, or descriptions of beings much more powerful than a mere wizard.

Also, time travel is problematical. In our world he'd have to deal with the physics consequences of time travel, not the D&D rules for time travel, which assume a D&D universe. In which case he travels back in time, changes stuff, gets shunted to alternative multiverse bubble (or branched finite universe stream) and is entirely unable to complete his goal.

No he can still complete his goal even assuming D&D rules for time travel aren't in effect. Regardless of any alternate universe/branched stream theories he would still have something completely and utterly indistinguishable from what would be the case if there were no branches or alternate universes. Incidentally this is why such theories are meaningless to time travelers. They have no functional meaning to them. Now people aware of people capable of time traveling? The only relevant fact to them would be that a time traveler leaves and will not come back regardless of whether they did what they wanted in the new version of the world they'd created. Relativity is fun aint it?

Edit: In response to your question he questioned the idea that the wizard could conquer the united states in any meaningful fashion while going back in time and prevent all people alive today from being born. I pointed out that that's totally possible. The U.S. existed before any currently living person and will likely continue to exist long after all that is currently alive has died leaving room for new generations.

[dascarletm]

No he can still complete his goal even assuming D&D rules for time travel aren't in effect. Regardless of any alternate universe/branched stream theories he would still have something completely and utterly indistinguishable from what would be the case if there were no branches or alternate universes. Incidentally this is why such theories are meaningless to time travelers. They have no functional meaning to them. Now people aware of people capable of time traveling? The only relevant fact to them would be that a time traveler leaves and will not come back regardless of whether they did what they wanted in the new version of the world they'd created. Relativity is fun aint it?

Edit: In response to your question he questioned the idea that the wizard could conquer the united states in any meaningful fashion while going back in time and prevent all people alive today from being born. I pointed out that that's totally possible. The U.S. existed before any currently living person and will likely continue to exist long after all that is currently alive has died leaving room for new generations.

does his ability to time travel specify that it follows the earth? If not, then he's gonna be a long way from anywhere once he does this.

[ryu]

does his ability to time travel specify that it follows the earth? If not, then he's gonna be a long way from anywhere once he does this.

Unimportant. We have ways of surviving in space, functional faster than light travel through teleportation, and a functioning method of finding earth through divination. You may as well of said we land five feet away from where we intended with all the obstacle it actually is.

[dascarletm]

Unimportant. We have ways of surviving in space, functional faster than light travel through teleportation, and a functioning method of finding earth through divination. You may as well of said we land five feet away from where we intended with all the obstacle it actually is.

How convenient that the wizard knows this ahead of time since no rules for that exist in his universe.

Possible Argument Against This: The wizard has such-and-such an Int score.
That only translates to an increased 5% chance per point on succeeding an int based skill check. Unless there is an advancing scientific understanding application of the ability or skill I missed.

I'm sure with unlimited metagame knowledge a wizard can be prepared for anything, especially when getting to prepare ahead of time after the fact.

[toapat]

Unimportant. We have ways of surviving in space, functional faster than light travel through teleportation, and a functioning method of finding earth through divination. You may as well of said we land five feet away from where we intended with all the obstacle it actually is.

Can you get immunity to The Bends? because even if that isnt a law in DnD, the wizard still is subject to our physics. and Depressurization will kill him without immunity to it

[ryu]

How convenient that the wizard knows this ahead of time since no rules for that exist in his universe.

Possible Argument Against This: The wizard has such-and-such an Int score.
That only translates to an increased 5% chance per point on succeeding an int based skill check. Unless there is an advancing scientific understanding application of the ability or skill I missed.

I'm sure with unlimited metagame knowledge a wizard can be prepared for anything, especially when getting to prepare ahead of time after the fact.

You mean you don't keep standard necklace of adaptability, as well as being constantly intangible to ward off any physical effects involved, flight to be divorced from gravity, invisible to avoid being effected by transmission of heat through light, and ageless in any number of ways? Most all of the necessary things here are extremely common effects. That includes spontaneous divinations, planeshift to some other plane and select earth when planeshifting back to immediately cut out most of the work, teleportation to finish the last of it, and so on? Each of those are effects I have normally without even expecting to go to space. Why? Name one of them you can't think of a reason it would prove necessary in.


Can you get immunity to The Bends? because even if that isnt a law in DnD, the wizard still is subject to our physics. and Depressurization will kill him without immunity to it

Necklace of adaptation maintains constant air environment around said wizard.

[toapat]

Necklace of adaptation maintains constant air environment around said wizard.

it creates an air barrier but it doesnt pressurize it. He still dies rather quickly from The Bends

[ryu]

it creates an air barrier but it doesnt pressurize it. He still dies rather quickly from The Bends

Oh it's pressurized. You'll read it explicitly allows safe breathing in total vacuum. I suppose if you want to argue deeper incorporeality means no physical object for pressure to act on.

[dascarletm]

You mean you don't keep standard necklace of adaptability, as well as being constantly intangible to ward off any physical effects involved, flight to be divorced from gravity, invisible to avoid being effected by transmission of heat through light, and ageless in any number of ways?
I think everything is beyond my physical limitations.

Seriously though if I'm playing a wizard honestly I wouldn't do those things. There is a serious lack of fun in trying to game the system in a way that makes me invulnerable and all possible encounters null and void. Not my cup of tea personally.

Though I'm sure my play style makes little difference to the discussion.



Most all of the necessary things here are extremely common effects. That includes spontaneous divinations, planeshift to some other plane and select earth when planeshifting back to immediately cut out most of the work, teleportation to finish the last of it, and so on? Each of those are effects I have normally without even expecting to go to space. Why? Name one of them you can't think of a reason it would prove necessary in.

Spontaneous divination is not something I see on every wizard build, or even the majority. So I have issue with that.

I also don't see that necklace too often on item lists either.

However, if the question is now: can the US build one of ryu's wizards?

Then looking at an actual wizard you have made would be more helpful in this discussion.



Necklace of adaptation maintains constant air environment around said wizard.

But does it account for the fact that his 5 ft square would now be compressed due to reverse expansion? Sounds painful.

[toapat]

Oh it's pressurized. You'll read it explicitly allows safe breathing in total vacuum. I suppose if you want to argue deeper incorporeality means no physical object for pressure to act on.

No, it doesnt explicitly protect from vacuum. it doesnt negate 3.5's 1d4/round of exposure.

However, when the wizard enters our world hes obedient to our physics. the necklace may spawn a local inch thick atmosphere but that atmosphere is going to disipate as quickly as it is formed, leaving the wizard under the effects of virtually 0psi. His blood will separate very rapidly and kill him.

[ryu]

First off spontaneous divination saves nine hours of boring waiting in this situation tops. It's not necessary, but it's relevant in making the process convenient and comfortable. It is also something that I always take.

Second how detailed do we want to get here? Just final level 20 state? Individual states at some given level interval? Final level state with listing of where retraining was used to turn powerful opening options like abrupt jaunt fiery burst opener into things that scale into late game better?

How much do you need to know about fine-sized ice assassin minions kept on my person in terms of details?

Crafted contingent spell setups on myself and all minions?

Ideal to likely party composition or just going it alone?

Are we allowing elven generalist to stack with domain wizard? I've seen that one go both ways on several occasions each.

Oh the self controlled defensive memory alteration program using mindrape on myself in combination with switching the vecna blooded template off and back on daily to prevent all possibility of certain secrets from being compromised?

How about the specifics of the ambrosia farming methods?

I need to know exactly how much you need to know to be satisfied before doing this.

Edit: Again toapat pressure cannot act on something incorporeal which isn't even there in a physical matter sense.

[Jormengand]

Okay, 20th level wizard. Let's assume he has to go onto earth, because if he's allowed to sit on the prime material he can open gates and drop explosive runes bombs, tungsten rods and monsters IX on people. Further, he has to stay on Earth.

Let's also assume that, even if Earth would inhibit his magic, he has a way around that, as tons of people have already suggested.

The wizard plane shifts into a derelict building in... oh, let's make it NYC, because he can teleport there anyway.

Wizard walks up to someone important and Dominates his Person. Wizard does the same to everyone important in the USA. No-one realises that the wizard is involved because yes, they can Sense people's Motive at DC 15, but then anyone who realises that the person is dominated is considered a conspiracy theorist. Alternatively, the wizard can Charm people's Person instead, or send them on a Quest. No-one is actually aware that this wizard is doing anything he shouldn't.

Then, the wizard gets killing. Or rather, he Summons some Monsters VII (Probably actually casting SMIX for 1d4+1 of them), who can greater teleport as a SLA. People get suspicious, but still have no idea that it's the wizard's fault. The wizard camps out in a permanencied-invisible riverine hut in the middle of nowhere (perhaps stick it on Ben Nevis and set a mental alarm in case any diehard Scottish mountaineers go near him, then he can leap out and kill them with cold spells, which should be indistinguishable from normal frostbite), which can only be entered or left by d door or greater teleport. No-one has a clue where the wizard is, and even if they do, a nuke won't get through riverine. Anyway, he can also set a contingent greater teleport for "If I'm about to be nuked, send me to [insert relatively habitable location with few/no people in it here]."

In fact, all he has to do is camp out in his hut, then every day slap on an invisibility, D door out, summon stuff, make summoned stuff kill stuff, and D door back in. Assuming he has a ring of sustenance or a wassface ioun stone, he can just stay there. In fact, if he makes this riverine hut big enough to hold the creatures, he doesn't even have to waste two d doors and an invisibility each time.

Apart from the hut being riverine, which isn't even necessary (adamantine should work - anything strong enough to support its own weight should work), this is all happening in core. The easy way of doing this is to camp out in his invisi-hut and send summons to kill everything.

[Shining Wrath]

You don't think the united states is significantly older than the oldest living human? Do you even history?

OP:
Could a 20th-level D&D Wizard take on the full military force of the modern United States and come out on top?

You don't get to alter that. So whatever you do to the time stream, the United States has to exist, be modern, and have its current full military forces. That constrains the choices available to your wizard by quite a bit. You don't get to declare "wizard always wins" by eliminating the United States, making it non-technological, or disarming it.

Now, once again: given the existence of the United States as it currently is, and no possibility of the wizard changing that because it is a priori a condition of the problem, how does the wizard preclude anyone in the world from learning how to do magic?

And, once again: if the wizard's magic works at all, then the power source for that magic is accessible in the modern USA. You can't have an acorn of far travel, which is a magic tool, still work but then assert there's no magic power available in our world.

So: without making radical changes to the current world, and allowing for the possibility that others will learn the Art, what are the wizard's choices? I concede he's still got some. But he's got to work really hard and keep on working really hard for decades or centuries.

[Renen]

What if the wizard is a Lich?
And hides his phylastery somewhere ACTUALLY safe (unlike voldemort)

Also, was the wizard transforming into the president/general mentioned? This is big.
Hell, have him mindrape president.
Then mindrape everyone who the president knows have nuke launch codes.
Proceed to nuke US, bevause you know all the passwords to everything.

[ryu]

OP:

You don't get to alter that. So whatever you do to the time stream, the United States has to exist, be modern, and have its current full military forces. That constrains the choices available to your wizard by quite a bit. You don't get to declare "wizard always wins" by eliminating the United States, making it non-technological, or disarming it.

Now, once again: given the existence of the United States as it currently is, and no possibility of the wizard changing that because it is a priori a condition of the problem, how does the wizard preclude anyone in the world from learning how to do magic?

And, once again: if the wizard's magic works at all, then the power source for that magic is accessible in the modern USA. You can't have an acorn of far travel, which is a magic tool, still work but then assert there's no magic power available in our world.

So: without making radical changes to the current world, and allowing for the possibility that others will learn the Art, what are the wizard's choices? I concede he's still got some. But he's got to work really hard and keep on working really hard for decades or centuries.

Simplest solution? Simultaneous layered castings of apocalypse from the sky to literally wipe all living things off the map immediately. Also just to be sure use divination to check for survivors. Takes a bit of setup but has no reliable counter or defense. Arrival of contingent spell holding ice assassin minions followed at the speed of instant with everything dies.

[Angelalex242]

There's still the possibility of 'If one wizard can make it here, what's to stop a typical D&D adventuring party from coming in after him?

Say, a party of 6 adventurers, level 18, maybe, (they want good XP...)

Consisting of a Paladin, a Cleric, a Druid, a Sorcerer, a Rogue, and a Bard.

The encounter level's 2 higher then they are, so they're drooling at the XP.

But then...if they find out wizards are real, what do you suppose happens to the world when they find out paladins, clerics, and druids are real? Never mind the Sorcerer. And what happens to the music industry when the Bard takes the stage? (Estimated perform check:21 ranks+3 skill focus+9 charisma (18+4 level+6 cloak)=33+d20.

[Jormengand]

There's still the possibility of 'If one wizard can make it here, what's to stop a typical D&D adventuring party from coming in after him?

There's also the possibility of Achaekek the Mantis God, the Tarrasque, or some other big, immortal beastie gating himself in and killing the wizard. We're ignoring that, because it's wizard vs USA.

[Shining Wrath]

Simplest solution? Simultaneous layered castings of apocalypse from the sky to literally wipe all living things off the map immediately. Also just to be sure use divination to check for survivors. Takes a bit of setup but has no reliable counter or defense. Arrival of contingent spell holding ice assassin minions followed at the speed of instant with everything dies.

10 miles radius, centered on caster. A 10 mile radius means he can take out a city, not a nation.

[Angelalex242]

In that case, I'm going back to "War of Attrition runs the wizard out of spells."

Even a 20th level wizard can only kill so many people without resorting to Conjuration magic, and if he pulls out Balors and Pit Fiends, people will rightly assume he might as well be a demon himself and they'll have everyone in the world uniting against him.

(He can't pull out Solars...good aligned beings aren't going to help him conquer anything. He's gotta use Fiends for this.)

[ryu]

10 miles radius, centered on caster. A 10 mile radius means he can take out a city, not a nation.

Notice I said simultaneous as in multiple. the total surface area of north america is notably less than 1,000,000 square miles. If you'll remember your area of circle formula each casting of apocalypse from the sky covers just over 314 square miles. 1,000,000/314=3,185 rounded up castings of apocalypse from the sky to cover the entire area. Now let's be thorough with this. Multiply by a hundred to hit 318,500 simultaneous castings to wipe out the entirety of the United States plus Canada and Mexico. Now notice that that isn't actually hard to achieve.

[Malimar]

10 miles radius, centered on caster. A 10 mile radius means he can take out a city, not a nation.

10 miles per caster level. A level 20 caster could take out most everything between Washington DC and New York City with one casting.

[ryu]

10 miles per caster level. A level 20 caster could take out most everything between Washington DC and New York City with one casting.

Of course you realize that just means we divide the number of necessary castings by four hundred or so right? Still requires a solid handful to cover the united states and still a pretty large number of castings to be as thorough as my inner paranoid demands.

[I3igAl]

In that case, I'm going back to "War of Attrition runs the wizard out of spells."

Even a 20th level wizard can only kill so many people without resorting to Conjuration magic, and if he pulls out Balors and Pit Fiends, people will rightly assume he might as well be a demon himself and they'll have everyone in the world uniting against him.

(He can't pull out Solars...good aligned beings aren't going to help him conquer anything. He's gotta use Fiends for this.)

He kills one guy, when noone watches and reanimates this dude as a Shadow. Then he ports somewhere save.

[Angelalex242]

Shadowpocalypse only works if the wizard's goal is 'destroy the world.'

It's near useless for 'conquer the world' because there will be nobody left to rule.

So have we decided if this wizard is an LE conqueror or a CE destroyer?

[dascarletm]

how does line of effect/sight work with AftS

The US covers 3,794,101 sq miles. Each casting at a 200mi radius is 125,663 sq. mi. Of course being a circle it is impossible to fill this area without overlap. However, a lot of this area is uninhabited. To be easier on myself I'll assume it'll fit perfectly and you need to get all of it. You'd only need 30 castings.

It's a versus situation, so both parties must be aware of the other's existence. Otherwise a large advantage is given to the side that gets "the jump."

@ryu I assume any information not given is going to be considered nonexistent. For example, if I wasn't supplied with a list of prepared 1st level spells, you couldn't after the fact say, "I had magic missile prepared." However I don't need you to do any of this since I'm no expert in the field of US Military. I'm not in the business of telling people to do a bunch of work unless I'm paying them, and I can in turn make a profit from said work. Neither of these conditions apply so you can do whatever you want, I'm not your keeper.

Also I'm curious how do you get so many 9th level spells. 400 or so castings will take what, at least a month, and that's assuming you don't have any of the other mentioned 9th level spells prep'd. It's only 30 castings by my math.

[NichG]

Hundreds of thousands of Apocalypse From the Sky castings via 'I have every artifact in my Component Pouch' is TO-land, at which point we're not talking about a Lv20 wizard, we're talking about a lazy version of Pun-Pun who hasn't bothered to get Sarrukh'd... until someone points something out in the thread that getting Sarrukh'd would help with.

Generally the claim is that core is broken enough to make Wizards T1 (and has more broken stuff than non-core), so do it with a specific, pre-built, core-only Wizard that does not use 'real world physics where convenient, D&D physics where convenient' - so no creating 1lbs of antimatter via Major Creation or using Teleport crossed with relativity to do time travel. In general, if you find that you have to TO I'm going to call that an admission of defeat - imagine this as a real campaign and the wizard is your PC.

Otherwise the answer is just 'TO wins', and it has nothing to do with the guy being a wizard - you could do it just as well with a Lv1 kobold at that point.

[Erik Vale]

Point for preasure, why are you assuming ye old regular mortal? Air Neraph is my favourite race for this sort of thing, Necropolitin [Probably spelt wrong] is also common, Warforged is avaliable, and best of all, the wizard has access to polymoprh any object.

I'd like to note those saying 'Well humanity gains magic' or 'Well the wizard loses magic', In DnD fluff DnD wizards have come and gone from Earth [stupidly] which means humanity has had magic, but doesn't use it.r And The wizard as such still has magic.
For those claiming he'd run out of spells, Mages Magnificent Mansion is great for that, as is a well hidden rope trick, or the plane shifting stronghold he brought with him that's basically a riverine orb with a bed in it. And there are also reserve feats.

The Battle can very simply be resolved as 'He becomes inorporeal through a persisted spell and blasts using [Reserve Feat], occasionally popping out something else every now and again out of boredom, before teleporting away and going to sleep and coming back, doing it over and over until the US army is defeated.'

Within Core? Wizard POA's self into a ghost [double to be permanent], then uses Malevolence to possess people, killing others/themselves with their own weapons, repeating as neccessary. Double POA to make it permanent, dispel when done.

[NichG]

The Battle can very simply be resolved as 'He becomes inorporeal through a persisted spell and blasts using [Reserve Feat], occasionally popping out something else every now and again out of boredom, before teleporting away and going to sleep and coming back, doing it over and over until the US army is defeated.'

Within Core? Wizard POA's self into a ghost [double to be permanent], then uses Malevolence to possess people, killing others/themselves with their own weapons, repeating as neccessary. Double POA to make it permanent, dispel when done.

So this comes back to my point on issues of scale.

The US population has a net increase of 5000 people every day. If the wizard wants to make a dent in that, he'd have to have a number of daily victims on that order. To keep the US population constant (not even decreasing it) means killing a person every 17.28 seconds. If the wizard sleeps 8 hours a day, they have to kill someone every two rounds. That's potentially doable with reserve feat blasting, but it'd take the wizard spending nearly every waking moment committed to the task - certainly not just 'whenever he's bored'.

Thats basically why things like a shadow-pocalypse are the main points to concentrate on. Non-growing processes are just too slow to make a dent in anything. Chain-gating might still work in Core though.

[Angelalex242]

Actually...can't the wizard just flat out destroy the earth by messing with the earth's core, and basically making Earth Krypton, with the same explosive fate?

[NichG]

Actually...can't the wizard just flat out destroy the earth by messing with the earth's core, and basically making Earth Krypton, with the same explosive fate?

Can you specify precisely how?

[Angelalex242]

Krypton was destroyed by a chain reaction at the core. Getting such a chain reaction going in our core is relatively trivial. That is, getting the core of the earth go nuclear. Getting the chain reaction going...you can probably do with good old meteor swarm, used at the right angle and proportions. Of course, earth has to roll a 'save'...but it'll roll a natural 1 eventually.

[Erik Vale]

The target was the Army, not the population. And all he has to do is get the army which isn't likely to be growing by such a rate, and is also occupied over seas.

And they may well capilate when refusing means that people in a base suddenly gain the ability to throw fireballs, or randomly begin shooting you and everyone else in the back with a higher BAB than most humans probably have [random recruit with pistol suddenly becomes a maskman with a pistol and no self preservation instinct and just a desire to kill. People can take a lot more bullets IRL than in DND at low level barring things such as immediately vital organs being hit [i.e. brain, heart, lungs]].

If Reserve feats were available [unfortunately non-core within some core definitions] everyone possesed would suddenly also be able to throw out [going by common favourites, being in general, for power and mine in order] Small Fireballs [Fiery Burst], Globs of acid that make IRL acids look non reactive at long ranges [Acidic Splatter] Or needles of solid force that hit surprisingly hard [Invisible Needle].


Hell, imagine what that'd do to morale if the Wizard took control of TV like that, declared he would be performing mass killings if the nation didn't immidiately surrender, and when it [inevitably] didn't, entire army bases went up/commited suicide, world leaders throw themselves off tall buildings, gas stations suddenly explode because someone pointed at them funny, entire roads crawl to a halt due to horrendous car accidents, and ships begin sinking at random when entering/leaving port, and planes suddenly crash because they began exploding.

You might claim you'd never surrender, but when what is effectively a physical god pops up I see plenty of capitulating happening myself, especially should said wizard play off various cults, plenty of regular humans get put in god positions all the time. You have to remember that the wizard I presented isn't 'just a level 20 wizard', it's random people suddenly becoming the sort of terrorists that shock the nation. Imagine if large numbers of planes suddenly began pulling 9/11s, and diseases unknown to man suddenly begun appearing, and every couple of days, a bunch of random reporters would demand surrender of the nation. The Panic would be immense.


Edit: @^ I don't know enough to truly mention, but for destroy the world someone somewhere figured out a way to make presure immune brown mold, and suggests putting that in the core... Or you just cast maximised fimblewinters a lot of times and force the planet into a ice-age. Destroying the world is easy stuff, it's dominating a place that requires effort...
Of course, a Low Level ghost could do what I'm suggesting above.

[NichG]

Krypton was destroyed by a chain reaction at the core. Getting such a chain reaction going in our core is relatively trivial. That is, getting the core of the earth go nuclear. Getting the chain reaction going...you can probably do with good old meteor swarm, used at the right angle and proportions. Of course, earth has to roll a 'save'...but it'll roll a natural 1 eventually.

This doesn't follow at all, in any sense of the rules - real physics or D&D. Unless you can show me a spell whose effect is 'makes the core of a planet blow up' then this is not something that can just be handwaved. I won't say absolutely that no one could figure out how to do it within the rules, but that figuring out actually needs to be done for this to be a meaningful suggestion. Spells are very very powerful, but they're powerful in very specific ways.


The target was the Army, not the population. And all he has to do is get the army which isn't likely to be growing by such a rate, and is also occupied over seas.


Actually, all the US has to do to 'win' is ignore the wizard entirely. Don't send the army after him, don't try to kick him out, just avoid him and encourage the population to become more dispersed. The wizard might be able to become the world's most awful serial killer, but this particular method can't actually lead them to a conquering victory against the US as a whole.

Certainly there would be panic, cultists following the wizard, etc - but in the overall scheme of things, that wouldn't really do much to put the continent under the control of a wizard, it'd just make things generally difficult for people all around. Eventually people would adapt a set of behaviors that make them less likely to fall victim, and life would likely change all over, but that's not actually the wizard's win condition.

[Erik Vale]

Actually, all the US has to do to 'win' is ignore the wizard entirely. Don't send the army after him, don't try to kick him out, just avoid him and encourage the population to become more dispersed. The wizard might be able to become the world's most awful serial killer, but this particular method can't actually lead them to a conquering victory against the US as a whole.

Certainly there would be panic, cultists following the wizard, etc - but in the overall scheme of things, that wouldn't really do much to put the continent under the control of a wizard, it'd just make things generally difficult for people all around. Eventually people would adapt a set of behaviors that make them less likely to fall victim, and life would likely change all over, but that's not actually the wizard's win condition.

1: No, it's wizard vs army, not wizard vs USA.
2: Your saying that people would happily adapt to lots of random people performing mass killings and destroying large swaths their infrastructure because they were forced to, with that coming just from racial abilities not including spellcasting and gear, which in and of itself has the ability to make nuclear bombs look small time? :smallconfused:
Seriously?

[NichG]

1: No, it's wizard vs army, not wizard vs USA.

You're in the wrong thread then. There is a different thread about that topic, but the title of this one is 'so a 20th level wizard wants to invade the US'.



2: Your saying that people would happily adapt to lots of random people performing mass killings and destroying large swaths their infrastructure because they were forced to, with that coming just from racial abilities not including spellcasting and gear, which in and of itself has the ability to make nuclear bombs look small time? :smallconfused:
Seriously?

Happily? No. Certainly they'd be upset. But it doesn't take a 20th level wizard to do things that make everyone in a country miserable or suffer. Plenty of normal humans have, unfortunately, caused great destructive events that have created changes in the behavior and emotions of everyone in entire countries.

But actually be successfully conquered and maintain control over a continental area? Not just by virtue of being personally powerful. There may indeed be particular spell combos that allow for this, but its not the natural outcome of 'hey, there's a really dangerous guy we can't kill or imprison'.

Replace 'wizard' with, say, 'seasonal hurricanes'. People aren't happy about them, we can't imprison them or kill them, and they can have massive effects on entire cities. But eventually people's behavior adapts to deal with the problem as best as they can. Life goes on without everyone becoming a hurricane cultist.

[Erik Vale]

You're in the wrong thread then. There is a different thread about that topic, but the title of this one is 'so a 20th level wizard wants to invade the US'.

{scrubbed}



Happily? No. Certainly they'd be upset. But it doesn't take a 20th level wizard to do things that make everyone in a country miserable or suffer. Plenty of normal humans have, unfortunately, caused great destructive events that have created changes in the behavior and emotions of everyone in entire countries.

But actually be successfully conquered and maintain control over a continental area? Not just by virtue of being personally powerful. There may indeed be particular spell combos that allow for this, but its not the natural outcome of 'hey, there's a really dangerous guy we can't kill or imprison'.

Replace 'wizard' with, say, 'seasonal hurricanes'. People aren't happy about them, we can't imprison them or kill them, and they can have massive effects on entire cities. But eventually people's behavior adapts to deal with the problem as best as they can. Life goes on without everyone becoming a hurricane cultist.

Ah, but are hurricanes sentient and offering a way to have them stop permanently? Are Hurricanes completely unpredictable? Do Hurricanes regularly do more damage to the world that atomic bombs at will, even without TO.
And yes, single people have successfully concurred large areas. The normally do so first by making lots of friends because they're only human, Wizards instead use summons monster, dominate and charm.

Or persisted timestops in which they create Simulacrums.

[Angelalex242]

Yeah, you pretty much can't ignore the wizard. Or else he'll dominate the president and congress, have a law passed declaring him the new ruler, and then dominate the supreme court to uphold it.

When you can make government dance to your turn via dominate, ignoring the wizard is not an option.

Indeed, with enough dominations, the military may actually have to defy orders to attack him at all.

[NichG]

Read the OP again. I'm not going to assume you haven't because that's gotten me a warning, but you should get what I'm thinking as I make that statement.
Edit: And before you catch me out on saying army where the OP says military, I say that out of convenience...


The thing is, people assume a sort of simplistic D&D-esque approach to dealing with the problem - that is, you and the problem stand on an open field and sling abilities at eachother until one side dies.

But real-life conflicts don't work like that. The best way to deploy the US military might against a wizard isn't to put 100k troops in an open field and get them nuked by fireballs, its to use them to escort civilians into safety, keep control of unrest that spikes in the populace as a result of the wizard's hijinks, etc.

Calling out someone who auto-wins one-on-one fights is just bad strategy, but everyone in the thread seems to be assuming that as the default response that would decide the conflict. Ignoring the wizard isn't very smart, but what I'm trying to point out is that even ignoring the wizard is strategically a much better option than the direct clash of arms. Now I don't think that ignoring the wizard is optimal by any means, but even that sub-optimal strategy its actually sufficient to prevent the wizard from achieving a win (it doesn't let the US achieve a win either, but its basically a stalemate).

So anything the military can be used for top of that is just a bonus.



Ah, but are hurricanes sentient and offering a way to have them stop permanently? Are Hurricanes completely unpredictable? Do Hurricanes regularly do more damage to the world that atomic bombs at will, even without TO.

Wizards don't actually have atomic bombs at will outside of TO. That kind of claim belongs more in Cowboys and Indians than in D&D. But yes, hurricanes regularly do damage comparable to atomic bombs - they have a wider range of effect and lower intensity, but the scale is not too far off.



And yes, single people have successfully concurred large areas. The normally do so first by making lots of friends because they're only human, Wizards instead use summons monster, dominate and charm.


As I said, the only way the wizard can win is by using a plan that involves steady growth of their administration. Thats why reserve feat blasting is insufficient. Summons don't last long enough or scale fast enough to hold territory, and charm and dominate need to be refreshed too often (the total administration size the wizard can use them to maintain is a constant). Mind Rape is probably necessary to actually pull off a growing administration.


Or persisted timestops in which they create Simulacrums.

Persisted timestop to produce NI followers is almost certainly TO territory, as with anything that involves NI anything.


Yeah, you pretty much can't ignore the wizard. Or else he'll dominate the president and congress, have a law passed declaring him the new ruler, and then dominate the supreme court to uphold it.

At which point it becomes pretty obvious to everyone in the country that something funky is going on, and all the local leaders, generals, military commanders, etc just ignore the central government. Once the jig is up, the hierarchy of government is just going to re-arrange itself. You won't have the same leadership you had before, but the new leadership will realize that its necessary to have multiple delocalized sources of command which must agree unanimously in order to enact a particular action. As long as its decentralized enough, scry-teleport-dominate becomes an inefficient method to take control of the network.

[Thealtruistorc]

What have I created?

[ryu]

how does line of effect/sight work with AftS

The US covers 3,794,101 sq miles. Each casting at a 200mi radius is 125,663 sq. mi. Of course being a circle it is impossible to fill this area without overlap. However, a lot of this area is uninhabited. To be easier on myself I'll assume it'll fit perfectly and you need to get all of it. You'd only need 30 castings.

It's a versus situation, so both parties must be aware of the other's existence. Otherwise a large advantage is given to the side that gets "the jump."

@ryu I assume any information not given is going to be considered nonexistent. For example, if I wasn't supplied with a list of prepared 1st level spells, you couldn't after the fact say, "I had magic missile prepared." However I don't need you to do any of this since I'm no expert in the field of US Military. I'm not in the business of telling people to do a bunch of work unless I'm paying them, and I can in turn make a profit from said work. Neither of these conditions apply so you can do whatever you want, I'm not your keeper.

Also I'm curious how do you get so many 9th level spells. 400 or so castings will take what, at least a month, and that's assuming you don't have any of the other mentioned 9th level spells prep'd. It's only 30 castings by my math.

So basically post everything but the extensive list of ice assassin standing orders of behavior list assuming I have active control of them at thought level? It will save you a few pages of reading. Also known level 20 state seems to be all that's desired so that's all I'll need for now. We can just fill any further details with questions afterwords. Now I have a project of abridging for ease of reading to complete over the next few days.

[dascarletm]

So basically post everything but the extensive list of ice assassin standing orders of behavior list assuming I have active control of them at thought level? It will save you a few pages of reading. Also known level 20 state seems to be all that's desired so that's all I'll need for now. We can just fill any further details with questions afterwords. Now I have a project of abridging for ease of reading to complete over the next few days.

Honestly you don't have to, and I probably wont respond to it in any capacity that makes your time spent/effort worthwhile, though others might. Mostly don't waste your time, unless it is something you want to do for your own sake.

[ryu]

Honestly you don't have to, and I probably wont respond to it in any capacity that makes your time spent/effort worthwhile, though others might. Mostly don't waste your time, unless it is something you want to do for your own sake.

Eh fair enough. Probably not doing that much work without some kind of substantive demand for it.

[The Grue]

Can you specify precisely how?

Rockburst (http://dndtools.eu/spells/shining-south--25/rockburst--3277/).

[NichG]

Rockburst (http://dndtools.eu/spells/shining-south--25/rockburst--3277/).

The core of the earth isn't actually a stone object though. Its a metal object surrounded by liquid.

Also, keep in mind that a spell's effect is limited by its range, even if its area or targets would normally extend past the range:



Range
A spell’s range indicates how far from you it can reach, as defined in the Range entry of the spell description. A spell’s range is the maximum distance from you that the spell’s effect can occur, as well as the maximum distance at which you can designate the spell’s point of origin. If any portion of the spell’s area would extend beyond this range, that area is wasted.


So even if the earth were a single stone object, rockburst would at best detonate a 100ft+10ft/lv radius sphere of it.

[The Grue]

http://www.quickmeme.com/img/00/00ddce11eb42d72fd22ab4b7d9875eea4419fd39916dbe8dd9 46dfe8558ec180.jpg

[Erik Vale]

The thing is, people assume a sort of simplistic D&D-esque approach to dealing with the problem - that is, you and the problem stand on an open field and sling abilities at eachother until one side dies.

Where have I said that? Divinations/maps [Comprehend language] to find military instalations. Until they're all abandoned, I still have good places to attack. Oh, and then there are cities. And Airports. And Ports. And Farms.



But real-life conflicts don't work like that. The best way to deploy the US military might against a wizard isn't to put 100k troops in an open field and get them nuked by fireballs, its to use them to escort civilians into safety, keep control of unrest that spikes in the populace as a result of the wizard's hijinks, etc.

Yes, that's the best use of the military. I'm not questioning that. However the military is made up of people, are you saying that the military won't be panicking itself?



Calling out someone who auto-wins one-on-one fights is just bad strategy, but everyone in the thread seems to be assuming that as the default response that would decide the conflict. Ignoring the wizard isn't very smart, but what I'm trying to point out is that even ignoring the wizard is strategically a much better option than the direct clash of arms. Now I don't think that ignoring the wizard is optimal by any means, but even that sub-optimal strategy its actually sufficient to prevent the wizard from achieving a win (it doesn't let the US achieve a win either, but its basically a stalemate).
[

How is it a stalemate if you're forced out of everywhere or you die? That's you having to run away completely. I believe it's called out rout. Or a tactical withdraw if well handled, but here's a question, if the USA leaves the USA, does that not me




Wizards don't actually have atomic bombs at will outside of TO.

So he's no true wizard? And I never said at will... That belongs to level 21 warlocks with the shadowmaster feat.



That kind of claim belongs more in Cowboys and Indians than in D&D. But yes, hurricanes regularly do damage comparable to atomic bombs - they have a wider range of effect and lower intensity, but the scale is not too far off.

So they regularly kill millions and poison the land while being unpredictable?



As I said, the only way the wizard can win is by using a plan that involves steady growth of their administration. Thats why reserve feat blasting is insufficient. Summons don't last long enough or scale fast enough to hold territory, and charm and dominate need to be refreshed too often (the total administration size the wizard can use them to maintain is a constant). Mind Rape is probably necessary to actually pull off a growing administration.

And the wizard has mindrape.
They also have planar binding, Summons is just a blasting assist, Summons can be persisted for extra usefulness.



Persisted timestop to produce NI followers is almost certainly TO territory, as with anything that involves NI anything.

And?



At which point it becomes pretty obvious to everyone in the country that something funky is going on, and all the local leaders, generals, military commanders, etc just ignore the central government. Once the jig is up, the hierarchy of government is just going to re-arrange itself. You won't have the same leadership you had before, but the new leadership will realize that its necessary to have multiple delocalized sources of command which must agree unanimously in order to enact a particular action. As long as its decentralized enough, scry-teleport-dominate becomes an inefficient method to take control of the network.
But it still works, and should it do as such it'll no longer be the USA. At most it'll be the UT/CA [United towns/cities of America], and if the army has dissolved then it's defeated, challenge still met.

[Ravens_cry]

But it still works, and should it do as such it'll no longer be the USA. At most it'll be the UT/CA [United towns/cities of America], and if the army has dissolved then it's defeated, challenge still met.
Tell that to the Nazis. A well organized resistance make a hell of a mess out of things even if the nation is 'officially' defeated, and they only have to get lucky once.

[Rubik]

Tell that to the Nazis. A well organized resistance make a hell of a mess out of things even if the nation is 'officially' defeated, and they only have to get lucky once.Except when a wizard is involved. Then it could take a few million times. (Or more!)

[The Grue]

Tell that to the Nazis.

Hello there, Godwin's Law.

[NichG]

Where have I said that? Divinations/maps [Comprehend language] to find military instalations. Until they're all abandoned, I still have good places to attack. Oh, and then there are cities. And Airports. And Ports. And Farms.

Yes, that's the best use of the military. I'm not questioning that. However the military is made up of people, are you saying that the military won't be panicking itself?

To some extent, sure. About the same as the military panicking itself during periods of real military history that probably can't actually be discussed within the forum rules. Suffice to say, some degree of turbulence is to be expected, but that doesn't mean that automatically everyone sits in a corner and cries. Odds are there's some of that, and each section of the military shrinks a bit or loses efficiency as they're adjusting to the situation and dealing with desertion/etc - all the usual things.



How is it a stalemate if you're forced out of everywhere or you die? That's you having to run away completely. I believe it's called out rout. Or a tactical withdraw if well handled, but here's a question, if the USA leaves the USA, does that not me

Not forced out of everywhere, just forced out of whatever city the wizard decides to focus his efforts on. Possibly forced to make a general move towards suburbs and more spread-out population patterns, depending on how widely the wizard ranges his activities.



So he's no true wizard? And I never said at will... That belongs to level 21 warlocks with the shadowmaster feat.


TO is basically giving up, because it makes the 'wizard' part of this debate irrelevant. Essentially, if we assume that the wizard does every possible thing within the rules for power and has a permissive DM, then the wizard will have already climbed Pun-Pun's ladder. If one goes to TO, then Lv1 Commoner and Lv20 Wizard are basically the same thing, and we're really talking about Pun-Pun and variations thereof.



So they regularly kill millions and poison the land while being unpredictable?


Atomic bombs don't regularly kill millions either. But yes, direct death tolls from hurricanes are about two orders of magnitude lower than an atomic blast, whereas property damage totals are generally about an order of magnitude higher. Both are events which are significant on a country-wide scale.



And the wizard has mindrape.
They also have planar binding, Summons is just a blasting assist, Summons can be persisted for extra usefulness.


Persisted summons still don't create a growing pool of workers, so that entire line is pretty much irrelevant. There's no doubt the wizard can win a local fight, so being able to win it even better doesn't change that (which is why I'm focusing on whether or not the wizard can make any headway in the global fight). Planar binding and mindrape are both more viable strategies at least as far as how they scale, so that would be the place to look.



But it still works, and should it do as such it'll no longer be the USA. At most it'll be the UT/CA [United towns/cities of America], and if the army has dissolved then it's defeated, challenge still met.

That's a sort of moot point if the wizard actually lacks any control of those territories, and they effectively function as a country (even if one whose system of government has to adapt to the fact that the wizard is sitting there in DC playing puppeteer). There's no reason the army would dissolve in such a situation. You'd probably have 20-40% losses during the re-organization, perhaps followed by a membership surge in 2-3 years once the general emotional response to the situation changes from fear to outrage.

[Ravens_cry]

Except when a wizard is involved. Then it could take a few million times. (Or more!)
On the contrary, the wizard is the topmost point of a very steep pyramid of power. You really only have to kill the wizard and the whole thing comes crashing down.

Hello there, Godwin's Law.
But applicable nonetheless.

[ryu]

On the contrary, the wizard is the topmost point of a very steep pyramid of power. You really only have to kill the wizard and the whole thing comes crashing down.

But applicable nonetheless.

Except that doesn't actually end it. You kill the wizard SOMEHOW and he just unkills himself and gets back up. We have several methods for accomplishing this even limiting it to purely wizard list spells.

[Rubik]

Except that doesn't actually end it. You kill the wizard SOMEHOW and he just unkills himself and gets back up. We have several methods for accomplishing this even limiting it to purely wizard list spells.Exactly. From Craft Contingent Limited Wish (Revivify) to Clones (plus thought bottle) to coterminous Astral Projections (via easily Planar Bound nightmare or otherwise) to Extended Persisted Planar Bubble (Ysgard) to lichification to ghost class levels with LA buyoff and more, high level wizards have tons of ways to come back from the dead over and over and over again, with very little effort.

And guess what? They all stack.

And that's assuming you can actually kill them in the first place, which is...unlikely.

[Erik Vale]

Tell that to the Nazis. A well organized resistance make a hell of a mess out of things even if the nation is 'officially' defeated, and they only have to get lucky once.

You mean, they only have to get past complete immunity and free automatic true ressurection while remaining a ghost once?
:smallsmile:


To some extent, sure. About the same as the military panicking itself during periods of real military history that probably can't actually be discussed within the forum rules. Suffice to say, some degree of turbulence is to be expected, but that doesn't mean that automatically everyone sits in a corner and cries. Odds are there's some of that, and each section of the military shrinks a bit or loses efficiency as they're adjusting to the situation and dealing with desertion/etc - all the usual things.

While I'm not going cry in a corner I'm thinking it'd be more than a little bit of shrinkage or efficiency loss.



Not forced out of everywhere, just forced out of whatever city the wizard decides to focus his efforts on. Possibly forced to make a general move towards suburbs and more spread-out population patterns, depending on how widely the wizard ranges his activities.

Suburbs would just mean he walks through walls, causing countless housewives/husbands + children [under school age] to commit suicide, then moves to the next house, and then those at work come home to find that all their family has slit their throats.
Dispersion just alters the amount of walking/nightmare riding he has to do.



TO is basically giving up, because it makes the 'wizard' part of this debate irrelevant. Essentially, if we assume that the wizard does every possible thing within the rules for power and has a permissive DM, then the wizard will have already climbed Pun-Pun's ladder. If one goes to TO, then Lv1 Commoner and Lv20 Wizard are basically the same thing, and we're really talking about Pun-Pun and variations thereof.

No it doesn't, there are degrees of TO, and it's not giving up, it's noting where the books hand out free cookies for reading them. It's not stuff I'd use for anything but this sort of challenge, the question was what can a wizard do against the [I think] largest modern military, well a level 20 wizard can destroy the world, it's just a question of fine tuning the power level.



That's a sort of moot point if the wizard actually lacks any control of those territories, and they effectively function as a country (even if one whose system of government has to adapt to the fact that the wizard is sitting there in DC playing puppeteer). There's no reason the army would dissolve in such a situation. You'd probably have 20-40% losses during the re-organization, perhaps followed by a membership surge in 2-3 years once the general emotional response to the situation changes from fear to outrage.
Followed by more fear because they still can't do anything even when they know he's there. And the challenge is still met.

[NichG]

Exactly. From Craft Contingent Limited Wish (Revivify) to Clones (plus thought bottle) to coterminous Astral Projections (via easily Planar Bound nightmare or otherwise) to Extended Persisted Planar Bubble (Ysgard) to lichification to ghost class levels with LA buyoff and more, high level wizards have tons of ways to come back from the dead over and over and over again, with very little effort.

And guess what? They all stack.

And that's assuming you can actually kill them in the first place, which is...unlikely.

Anything that brings the wizard back on the spot won't be useful, because when they revive they'll do so without buffs and so will be trivial to re-kill. I've basically been assuming the Astral Projection + Planeshift trick, since there's basically no counter and the wizard 'revives' in the safety of somewhere far away. Everything else on top of that is just a waste of resources, really. And with the Astral Projection trick, even things like capture in a disabled state don't really last.

[Rubik]

Anything that brings the wizard back on the spot won't be useful, because when they revive they'll do so without buffs and so will be trivial to re-kill. I've basically been assuming the Astral Projection + Planeshift trick, since there's basically no counter and the wizard 'revives' in the safety of somewhere far away. Everything else on top of that is just a waste of resources, really. And with the Astral Projection trick, even things like capture in a disabled state don't really last.None of those revival techniques gets in the way of additional Crafted Contingencies, such as Greater Teleport, Time Stop, or even Celerity, which are good to have on anyway. And then we have the tinfoil hat (made from riverine) and several Magic Mouths set to call the command word any time such would be useful. So prepare multiple resurrection techniques (just in case one fails -- such as via a cut astral cord) and let them be your safety net.

Redundancy is a paranoiac's friend.

[NichG]

Suburbs would just mean he walks through walls, causing countless housewives/husbands + children [under school age] to commit suicide, then moves to the next house, and then those at work come home to find that all their family has slit their throats.
Dispersion just alters the amount of walking/nightmare riding he has to do.

Yes, but it does so in a way that basically makes him a really nasty serial killer instead of an effective country-invader. You can have someone who auto-kills everything within 100ft of himself and cannot be killed or stopped, and that power set is not sufficient to actually successfully invade, take over, or destroy a country.

There just isn't enough time in the day.


No it doesn't, there are degrees of TO, and it's not giving up, it's noting where the books hand out free cookies for reading them. It's not stuff I'd use for anything but this sort of challenge, the question was what can a wizard do against the [I think] largest modern military, well a level 20 wizard can destroy the world, it's just a question of fine tuning the power level.

Its giving up because the answer is arbitrary. The reason it works isn't because of a property of the wizard, it works because of a property of the DM. The same tricks work just as well for that Lv1 kobold paladin, so it says nothing about '20th level wizardness', it says something about 'D&D character-ness'.


Followed by more fear because they still can't do anything even when they know he's there. And the challenge is still met.

Its difficult to discuss this without running into forum rules. Suffice to say, we do this every day of our lives and we don't break down and cease to function. We each cannot personally and directly stop any number of horrible things in the world, but we learn to live with them. Living with the crazy homicidal guy who took over DC isn't that much different than learning to live with natural disasters, hostile foreign countries, diseases, and the like. They're all implacable forces out there in the world that could kill you, but statistically speaking you're generally more likely to die in a car crash or from a heart attack.

[Ravens_cry]

Except that doesn't actually end it. You kill the wizard SOMEHOW and he just unkills himself and gets back up. We have several methods for accomplishing this even limiting it to purely wizard list spells.
And humans have methods of killing that are completely outside a wizard's experience or knowledge. Plus, D&D magic is primarily centreed around killing small groups in fairly confined spaces. It's surprisingly limited outside that scope. Modern weapons could take him out before he knew what he was protecting against, and each casting of clone strips him of some of his power.

[Forum Explorer]

Way I see it those who are saying the Wizard would win easily are wanting their cake and eating it too.

Everything the Wizard does works as if he was in a D&D world and all the people of Earth have to play by those rules as well. Oh and all humans count as level 1 so every thing is incredibly easy for the wizard to do.

In other words they are saying that the wizard is invading the US, if the US was suddenly dropped into a D&D world.

[Erik Vale]

Yes, but it does so in a way that basically makes him a really nasty serial killer instead of an effective country-invader. You can have someone who auto-kills everything within 100ft of himself and cannot be killed or stopped, and that power set is not sufficient to actually successfully invade, take over, or destroy a country.

There just isn't enough time in the day.

Point. However the point of doing such things isn't for the 'I kill you all', it's for the 'Pant's S****ing terror' of opening the door to such. Sure, there is every possibility that fear will turn to some sort of ineffectual rage, however that'll be followed by weariness and giving in... It may just take a good long while, generations even, and the wizard needs to have a plan to last that long if so they choose.



Its giving up because the answer is arbitrary. The reason it works isn't because of a property of the wizard, it works because of a property of the DM. The same tricks work just as well for that Lv1 kobold paladin, so it says nothing about '20th level wizardness', it says something about 'D&D character-ness'.

I disagree, however I don't see us going to agree.



Its difficult to discuss this without running into forum rules. Suffice to say, we do this every day of our lives and we don't break down and cease to function. We each cannot personally and directly stop any number of horrible things in the world, but we learn to live with them. Living with the crazy homicidal guy who took over DC isn't that much different than learning to live with natural disasters, hostile foreign countries, diseases, and the like. They're all implacable forces out there in the world that could kill you, but statistically speaking you're generally more likely to die in a car crash or from a heart attack.
Yes, there is every possibility that he could well be ignored like every other natural disaster and just be considered that. But what sort of disaster leaves towns butchered daily, has leadership go insane, and wiped places off the map, and is completely ignored? Especially in the information age... And I'm not talking about places that just cut themselves off from the outside world for whatever reason, and if you say the USA just does that I posit that's still succeeding at the challenge.
If you feel you need to go into real world politics feel free to PM me and continue, if you feel you cannot do so that's also fine, point of the matter is that the only way the wizard can lose this challenge, is if he chooses to, even should people move goalposts.

[Ravens_cry]

Way I see it those who are saying the Wizard would win easily are wanting their cake and eating it too.

Everything the Wizard does works as if he was in a D&D world and all the people of Earth have to play by those rules as well. Oh and all humans count as level 1 so every thing is incredibly easy for the wizard to do.

In other words they are saying that the wizard is invading the US, if the US was suddenly dropped into a D&D world.
Or at least d20 modern. I think we had a topic about that too.

[Rubik]

And humans have methods of killing that are completely outside a wizard's experience or knowledge. Plus, D&D magic is primarily centered around killing small groups in fairly confined spaces. It's surprisingly limited outside that scope. Modern weapons could take him out before he knew what he was protecting against, and each casting of clone strips him of some of his power.Wizard blasting and most BFC are fairly limited, area-wise, but there are lots of spells that are horrifically effectual when used intelligently, and those are the real winners here. Think about the kinds of spells you can add from, say, the druid list using Extra Spell and the Dark Chaos Feat Shuffle. Add War Spells for extra oomph. We also have magic item creation and such, which allows for all sorts of trap shenanigans.

Even with the wizard's limitations, he's still the closest thing to God we'd have on the planet well before level 20.


Way I see it those who are saying the Wizard would win easily are wanting their cake and eating it too.

Everything the Wizard does works as if he was in a D&D world and all the people of Earth have to play by those rules as well. Oh and all humans count as level 1 so every thing is incredibly easy for the wizard to do.

In other words they are saying that the wizard is invading the US, if the US was suddenly dropped into a D&D world.But the challenge is "D&D wizard vs mundane America." The wizard gets magic, while America gets everything they have right now, such as modern technology, the finest minds on the continent, modern communications, and 4chan.

To make them compatible, we probably ought to consider the United States portion to use mundane d20 Modern.

[Erik Vale]

And humans have methods of killing that are completely outside a wizard's experience or knowledge. Plus, D&D magic is primarily centreed around killing small groups in fairly confined spaces. It's surprisingly limited outside that scope. Modern weapons could take him out before he knew what he was protecting against, and each casting of clone strips him of some of his power.

Yes, Humanity can kill things outside of the wizards experience. The problem is that a wizard planning on [starting at 1] vs country would put in place contingencies humanity couldn't get around. The biggest thing is though that it would take very specific types of people to use their powers in the manners described, even if they act like 1 million is a statistic, they would quite basically be insane. I wouldn't play the sort of wizard who would do this, and I'm definitely not the sort who would suffer from the sorts of PTSD and Paranoia to become a god-wizard.

If the challenge was gaining power in the USA, I would go back and research custom spell, find some way to rig the election or some such, and then use mental manipulation, but what's been asked for is defeating the military.

What I see as the critical juncture of this challenge, for the wizard, is as soon as he arrives. The points being:
-Where he arrives.
-What he's protected himself against.
-How he starts his attack.

It's entirely possible he could die in seconds, or could give up upon using magic to read a library full of information on the USA [of course, said info could have him decide that he needs to take over, but that's based on how the wizard views politics]. The thing is though a wizard made for this challenge wins because DND.


Way I see it those who are saying the Wizard would win easily are wanting their cake and eating it too.

Everything the Wizard does works as if he was in a D&D world and all the people of Earth have to play by those rules as well. Oh and all humans count as level 1 so every thing is incredibly easy for the wizard to do.

In other words they are saying that the wizard is invading the US, if the US was suddenly dropped into a D&D world.

... Nope. I've noted that humans could be a lot harder to kill than normal, however in dnd fluff wizards work normally on Earth [apparently, I've never read that story, but it sounds like it makes for a bad one]. The problem is that the Wizard can almost always have their cake and eat it too, it's just easier for wizards on Earthland.

[SalterisSolaris]

You know... if that wizard is indeed a D&D character, then someone in our world must have inevitably thought him up.

Meaning if such a character would show up in this world, I'd venture a guess that his creator would recognize him sooner or later. So unless the wizard knows that he is a fiction, who exactly created him, and Charm Persons that guy at the first opportunity: then I'd assume that this person still has implicit control over that wizard. All the better if it happened to be a villain NPC, as then the guy was even a DM.

As such, defeating the wizard would boil down to some seemingly arbitrary guy on this world watching the news, then speaking the line "Radcloth Spellslinger Maulmegrim decides to stop the invasion. And to pledge heartfelt eternal allegiance to me. And to conjure me a mean tuna sammich." :smallbiggrin:

[Erik Vale]

Assuming he isn't a accidental casualty if the wizard decides to go noisy... Though that would be funny.
-Millions killed in US by imaginary character. Character now serves [Insert Country] Man as butler.

[NichG]

Point. However the point of doing such things isn't for the 'I kill you all', it's for the 'Pant's S****ing terror' of opening the door to such. Sure, there is every possibility that fear will turn to some sort of ineffectual rage, however that'll be followed by weariness and giving in... It may just take a good long while, generations even, and the wizard needs to have a plan to last that long if so they choose.

I disagree, however I don't see us going to agree.

Yes, there is every possibility that he could well be ignored like every other natural disaster and just be considered that. But what sort of disaster leaves towns butchered daily, has leadership go insane, and wiped places off the map, and is completely ignored? Especially in the information age... And I'm not talking about places that just cut themselves off from the outside world for whatever reason, and if you say the USA just does that I posit that's still succeeding at the challenge.
If you feel you need to go into real world politics feel free to PM me and continue, if you feel you cannot do so that's also fine, point of the matter is that the only way the wizard can lose this challenge, is if he chooses to, even should people move goalposts.

Very well, I'll give the specific examples I have in mind over PM in a bit.

Anyhow, I don't think 'completely ignored' is a realistic response, but I also don't think a likely response involves throwing wave after wave of men at the wizard just to have them mowed down conveniently. Its difficult to guess what a realistic response would look like, but I expect it'd involve a good degree of information gathering actions combined with protective activities - performing psychological and statistical analysis of the wizard's attack patterns and behaviors; attempting espionage and infiltration; attempting ruses, ambushes, and the like; attempting to capture things that have been affected by the wizard's magic to do a detailed study of how it works and what things might counter it; etc. I think the entire thing would play out in a fairly complex way.

Anyhow, I do think that the wizard probably has winning strategies at least in certain versions of this challenge, I don't think they've been found yet in this thread, or at least not fully explored. Mostly I wanted to point out that 'not losing' is not the same as winning and to get people to focus more on the grand scale considerations of the actual path to conquest rather than getting stuck on the 'he can't be killed so he wins' thing, which doesn't really work on its own.

An example strategy that'd be a lot better for the wizard would be to back a couple of dictatorships in order to rapidly accelerate their internal growth (by providing divination-aided decision making on internal and external policy, using charm and the like at negotiations to create a network of alliances, polymorph any object to create super-workers/super-soldiers, etc), and then push their puppet dictatorships into military invasions of parts of the US. That way they basically get to leverage existing organizations that have a power structure that is more top-heavy and have a lot less cross-checking. They would need to avoid exposure as much as possible to build local power bases without interference, but its probably something that could be done in 3-5 years and take a few chunks out.

[Erik Vale]

PMed you back just before this post. Basically sums up with I disagree, long term... At least I think so.


---


Very well, I'll give the specific examples I have in mind over PM in a bit.

Anyhow, I don't think 'completely ignored' is a realistic response, but I also don't think a likely response involves throwing wave after wave of men at the wizard just to have them mowed down conveniently. Its difficult to guess what a realistic response would look like, but I expect it'd involve a good degree of information gathering actions combined with protective activities - performing psychological and statistical analysis of the wizard's attack patterns and behaviors; attempting espionage and infiltration; attempting ruses, ambushes, and the like; attempting to capture things that have been affected by the wizard's magic to do a detailed study of how it works and what things might counter it; etc. I think the entire thing would play out in a fairly complex way.
It's not, it's just all I can think of as a realistic response to maintain the country... Well, Semi-Complete media blackout + Martial Law/Draconan




Anyhow, I do think that the wizard probably has winning strategies at least in certain versions of this challenge, I don't think they've been found yet in this thread, or at least not fully explored. Mostly I wanted to point out that 'not losing' is not the same as winning and to get people to focus more on the grand scale considerations of the actual path to conquest rather than getting stuck on the 'he can't be killed so he wins' thing, which doesn't really work on its own.

An example strategy that'd be a lot better for the wizard would be to back a couple of dictatorships in order to rapidly accelerate their internal growth (by providing divination-aided decision making on internal and external policy, using charm and the like at negotiations to create a network of alliances, polymorph any object to create super-workers/super-soldiers, etc), and then push their puppet dictatorships into military invasions of parts of the US. That way they basically get to leverage existing organizations that have a power structure that is more top-heavy and have a lot less cross-checking. They would need to avoid exposure as much as possible to build local power bases without interference, but its probably something that could be done in 3-5 years and take a few chunks out.

Yes, that would probably work. I'd consider terror attacks as I've suggested to win more certainly within/around such a time frame, but those would be the actions of a psychotic CE wizard who probably wouldn't have the Op-Fu suggested because psychotic CE wizard.


My preferred method would be using Malevolance or such to control the President/other, and then mass suggestions/chain charm/dominate person and such. Use other methods to slowly create a utopia, dispand the US Military/merge it with others. Technical win that achieves the scenario, ends with me having total power behind the scenes [sorta] and improves the world in general... If you agree with the wizards idea of a utopia and how he manages it.

[dascarletm]

So he's no true wizard Scotsman?


Fixed that. :smallbiggrin:


Hello there, Godwin's Law.

That's not really Godwin's Law. Nothing is being compared to Nazis. That statement could have very well substituted any country that has invaded another and felt significant resistance from a "freedom fighting force".

[Angelalex242]

Since Gates are always fun, one also has to consider the CE wizard is likely gating in Balors. And possibly Mariliths and other things straight from the Abyss.

The bad news for humanity, of course, is that they're Balors. The good news for humanity is that they'll provide a unifying force for the world as proof beyond a reasonable doubt that the wizard is bad news.

[Trasilor]

Full disclosure: didn't read all the posts...If this has been answered/already discussed I apologize in advance.

Whenever I see these posts, I always find it odd that the D&D universe rules work in reality but not the other way round.

'Wizard casts a spell with a Will save - people have no will save ergo people fail'. Why not the other way round? If people don't have a Will save (or Reflex or Fort save) the spell fails b/c there is nothing for the spell to target? For that matter, given that our universe is governed by fundamentals laws of physics, which the Wizard breaks with the most basic of spells (looking at you Orb of Acid), why don't they simply fail?

In fact, the whole premise is based on one very flawed assumption - magic works in real world. If it didn't the 20th level wizard would drop from one bullet to the chest.

I feet these arguments (inserting D&D character into real world) are significantly biased towards the D&D character.

[Rubik]

Full disclosure: didn't read all the posts...If this has been answered/already discussed I apologize in advance.

Whenever I see these posts, I always find it odd that the D&D universe rules work in reality but not the other way round.

'Wizard casts a spell with a Will save - people have no will save ergo people fail'. Why not the other way round? If people don't have a Will save (or Reflex or Fort save) the spell fails b/c there is nothing for the spell to target? For that matter, given that our universe is governed by fundamentals laws of physics, which the Wizard breaks with the most basic of spells (looking at you Orb of Acid), why don't they simply fail?

In fact, the whole premise is based on one very flawed assumption - magic works in real world. If it didn't the 20th level wizard would drop from one bullet to the chest.

I feet these arguments (inserting D&D character into real world) are significantly biased towards the D&D character.This is why both I and others have suggested that the real world work on the d20 Modern paradigm. We'd have basic defenses like level, hp, and saving throws, but we're all mundane (and most likely all at or under level 6). We do have the advantages of advanced technology, excellent communications, and a very large number of very well-educated and extraordinarily intelligent people all over the world.

Unfortunately, a high level wizard is virtually impossible to kill without having the same types of magical abilities. Even then, the chances of killing off someone else with those powers are fairly slim.

Magic is just that powerful.

[dascarletm]

This is why both I and others have suggested that the real world work on the d20 Modern paradigm. We'd have basic defenses like level, hp, and saving throws, but we're all mundane (and most likely all at or under level 6). We do have the advantages of advanced technology, excellent communications, and a very large number of very well-educated and extraordinarily intelligent people all over the world.

Unfortunately, a high level wizard is virtually impossible to kill without having the same types of magical abilities. Even then, the chances of killing off someone else with those powers are fairly slim.

Magic is just that powerful.

That however is giving a large advantage to side wizard.

Going the other way around, putting in a hypothetical wizard in the real world with the powers given in the book, on the other hand would be quite different. Since the game rules are an abstraction of how actual combat would work, the liberties made for the sake of ease of use/simplicity will effect the outcomes.
This second way however, is more of a thought game than anything testable. Though testing your way would be unwieldy as well.

[Rubik]

That however is giving a large advantage to side wizard.That's kind of the point, because that's what having magic is. There's really nothing mundane that can keep up with it past a certain point, which is why we'd be so screwed. Sure, we can bomb things with nuclear weaponry or unleash horrific plagues that can wipe out entire civilizations, but neither would affect a wizard for long (if at all).

Going by "real world vs high level magic," the latter would definitely win. We don't have any truly high level people, who can survive being dunked in volcanoes or balance on clouds. It just doesn't happen. The best we've got are level 6 people with good focus on their skills, because that's how the real world works.


Going the other way around, putting in a hypothetical wizard in the real world with the powers given in the book, on the other hand would be quite different. Since the game rules are an abstraction of how actual combat would work, the liberties made for the sake of ease of use/simplicity will effect the outcomes.
This second way however, is more of a thought game than anything testable. Though testing your way would be unwieldy as well.Magic explicitly breaks physics, so translating the wizard into the real world just overrides what we know of the way the world works in order to make it function. We can, however, map the real world onto the wizard's ruleset -- in fact, that's what d20 Modern does.

The only way to really make it work is to use the d20 system, knowing that some things are abstractions, and follow those rules as best we can when adjudicating things covered by them. Sure, the round-by-round system may be a bit slower than what we can do, which means everything is probably sped up a bit overall, but considering that the wizard can create and destroy entire worlds on a whim, I really don't think this will change the equation that much.

[dascarletm]

That's kind of the point, because that's what having magic is. There's really nothing mundane that can keep up with it past a certain point, which is why we'd be so screwed. Sure, we can bomb things with nuclear weaponry or unleash horrific plagues that can wipe out entire civilizations, but neither would affect a wizard for long (if at all).

All I can say is that the wizards options are fixed and unchanging whereas, irl options are neigh limitless. Things can always be discovered and shaped. Secondly nothing stands impervious. There is no impregnable defenses. Everything is subject to entropy and everything eventually falls. But it's not entirely too relevant to this.



Going by "real world vs high level magic," the latter would definitely win. We don't have any truly high level people, who can survive being dunked in volcanoes or balance on clouds. It just doesn't happen. The best we've got are level 6 people with good focus on their skills, because that's how the real world works.

That's exactly where the flaw comes into play. All things like levels, and HP don't exist and make absolutely no sense. The real world doesn't work anything like DnD rules. That's fine because it is a game.



Magic explicitly breaks physics, so translating the wizard into the real world just overrides what we know of the way the world works in order to make it function. We can, however, map the real world onto the wizard's ruleset -- in fact, that's what d20 Modern does.

There is plenty of media out there that has a fictional real world in which magic exists, but doesn't work by what we "know." This hypothetical situation can be like that. However, rejecting this in lieu of the alternative method is taking a lot of liberties with our world. However translating the DnD wizard into the real world is also taking liberties. The way I would do it would be to create a hypothetical person with the spellcasting abilities of a 20th level wizard. They however would still be flesh and blood.



The only way to really make it work is to use the d20 system, knowing that some things are abstractions, and follow those rules as best we can when adjudicating things covered by them. Sure, the round-by-round system may be a bit slower than what we can do, which means everything is probably sped up a bit overall, but considering that the wizard can create and destroy entire worlds on a whim, I really don't think this will change the equation that much.

That is not the only way to address the hypothetical. You may think there is only one way, and reject the way I would prefer to render it, but that's your preference, and not any sort of truth. I consider the abstractions to be far more equation altering, but that's where our opinion differs.


This isn't really a question that has an answer anyway. It's entirely opinion based and has no real way determine an outcome. That doesn't make arguing about it any less fun though :smallwink:

[ArqArturo]

Also, the wizard has to check if everybody is surfing.

[Angelalex242]

Well, yes. The fact is, every real person has 1 hit point. The strongest, best trained navy seal, the MMA champion, all of that stuff...they all die with a single gunshot. Indeed, you can even kill them with a single sword slash, if you can hit them in the first place.

To be clear, point me at somebody who can survive a sword through the chest. The sword only does d8 damage, but are YOU gonna survive that? Is anyone?

[The Grue]

That's not really Godwin's Law. Nothing is being compared to Nazis. That statement could have very well substituted any country that has invaded another and felt significant resistance from a "freedom fighting force".

Indeed, any number of examples could have been chosen. But the example that was chosen was the Nazi occupation of France. Why was that example chosen? It is neither the most recent nor the largest-scale example of of an organized resistance movement. I can only conclude it was chosen for one of two reasons:


Because it's the most recent example of white people resisting occupation by a foreign power
Because Nazis have shock value


Option 1 demonstrates both a poor understanding of world history and a significant bias. Option 2 is well within the spirit of Godwin's Law.

[Rubik]

All I can say is that the wizards options are fixed and unchanging whereas, irl options are neigh nigh limitless.Wizards are capable of creating new spells and new magic items. The only limits are those imposed by the DM the extraordinarily loose limits on how magic works.


Things can always be discovered and shaped.On both sides, yes.


Secondly nothing stands impervious.Then tell me, how would you deal with someone immune to death from being damaged (including knives, bullets, grenades, tanks, lasers, animal attacks, structural collapse, health problems like aneurysms and heart attacks, and nuclear bombs), poison, suffocation, starvation, dehydration, disease, and every other nonmagical attack form, who can deflect any and all projectile weapons at will, who can alter reality itself around himself and his foes, can summon horrors from beyond to do his bidding, can hide behind defenses indestructible against anything we can throw at it (including hurling them into the sun or a black hole), who can alter the weather on a whim to be as fair or destructive as he likes, who can destroy entire civilizations without even looking up from the book he's reading, who can read minds, who can reliably predict the future several days in advance, who can be anywhere at any time, who can gather any information he wants within minutes, who has an IQ above that of every single human ever born on Earth, who can evade capture by simply phasing out of reality as we know it, who can be multiple places at once via mind-controlled copies of himself, who can be completely undetectable, who can kill or control anyone at any time without even being in the same solar system, and who can resurrect himself within moments in a dozen different ways if we did somehow manage to kill one of his many bodies, and then make that particular means of killing him defunct in mere moments?

And that's just the tip of the proverbial iceberg.

Magic isn't impervious to everything -- after all, magic counters magic -- but it is impervious to anything nonmagical, and since all the inhabitants of Earth are nonmagical...


There is no impregnable defenses. Everything is subject to entropy and everything eventually falls. But it's not entirely too relevant to this.That's the way the system is without magic. When a being gets near-infinite power that renews itself after a bit of rest, and who is perfectly capable of living forever without much thought, that statement is rendered rather null and void.

Magic is broken because it breaks reality as we know it into pieces and stitches it back together however it wants. And there's honestly nothing we can do about it without more magic to counter.

I guess if we somehow managed to make some major breakthroughs in technology which also break reality, a la Star Trek, we might have a chance. But that kind of tech is many decades, if not centuries, of advancement, and I don't think there's any way to push through that kind of industrial revolution in the time it takes for the wizard to break our entire world into pieces and ruin us all.


That's exactly where the flaw comes into play. All things like levels, and HP don't exist and make absolutely no sense. The real world doesn't work anything like DnD rules. That's fine because it is a game.

There is plenty of media out there that has a fictional real world in which magic exists, but doesn't work by what we "know." This hypothetical situation can be like that. However, rejecting this in lieu of the alternative method is taking a lot of liberties with our world. However translating the DnD wizard into the real world is also taking liberties. The way I would do it would be to create a hypothetical person with the spellcasting abilities of a 20th level wizard. They however would still be flesh and blood.Then we're down to a Cowboys & Indians "uh huh/uh uh!" argument, which is inherently untenable, making it a completely useless endeavor. At least translating the real world into d20 Modern gives us a base with which to work, whereas the Cowboys & Indians approach just goes nowhere.


That is not the only way to address the hypothetical. You may think there is only one way, and reject the way I would prefer to render it, but that's your preference, and not any sort of truth. I consider the abstractions to be far more equation altering, but that's where our opinion differs.I'm wanting to compare overpowered gala apples to red delicious apples, whereas you're wanting to compare gala apples to 18th century doorknobs. There's just no real common ground there, and so we might as well quit now.


This isn't really a question that has an answer anyway. It's entirely opinion based and has no real way determine an outcome. That doesn't make arguing about it any less fun though :smallwink:At least my suggestion allows us to have some common ground to discuss it on some kind of logical playing field. Yours does not.

[Forum Explorer]

But the challenge is "D&D wizard vs mundane America." The wizard gets magic, while America gets everything they have right now, such as modern technology, the finest minds on the continent, modern communications, and 4chan.

To make them compatible, we probably ought to consider the United States portion to use mundane d20 Modern.

d20 Modern is a horrible representation of what reality is actually like. In pretty much every way. You can go for it, but I wouldn't say the wizard is fighting against the 'real world' in that case.



... Nope. I've noted that humans could be a lot harder to kill than normal, however in dnd fluff wizards work normally on Earth [apparently, I've never read that story, but it sounds like it makes for a bad one]. The problem is that the Wizard can almost always have their cake and eat it too, it's just easier for wizards on Earthland.

Two things,

1. Give me a source on that because I'm calling BS. I can just as easily say there is a story where a DnD wizard gets to Earth and doesn't have any power.

2. Even if it's a story, then that doesn't necessarily mean it's 'canon'. That is to say, it's about as canon as a campaign I run where there's a magic sword capable of absorbing any spell cast at it, and it takes place in the Medieval Ages of the 'real world'.

[Angelalex242]

Let's say the 20th level wizard is stuck in a 'real body', where a single gunshot or sword thrust can kill him. He, like every real person, now has 1 hit point, in D&D terms...

Now is he toast? All team USA has to do is get lucky exactly once. In all those bullets headed his way....

[dascarletm]

Well, yes. The fact is, every real person has 1 hit point. The strongest, best trained navy seal, the MMA champion, all of that stuff...they all die with a single gunshot. Indeed, you can even kill them with a single sword slash, if you can hit them in the first place.

To be clear, point me at somebody who can survive a sword through the chest. The sword only does d8 damage, but are YOU gonna survive that? Is anyone?

People have survived being hit by swords, and DnD lacks hit areas. Most armor covers that area, and shields usually cover that as well. My point is that hit points don't translate well at all. Since being hit largely depends on the where more than with the what.

Also many people have survived multiple gunshot wounds, others have died from one. At least one has survived being shot in the face. (though with severe disability.)


Indeed, any number of examples could have been chosen. But the example that was chosen was the Nazi occupation of France. Why was that example chosen? It is neither the most recent nor the largest-scale example of of an organized resistance movement. I can only conclude it was chosen for one of two reasons:


Because it's the most recent example of white people resisting occupation by a foreign power
Because Nazis have shock value


Option 1 demonstrates both a poor understanding of world history and a significant bias. Option 2 is well within the spirit of Godwin's Law.

I agree with what you are saying, but I was under the impression that the Law is specifically dealing with someone calling someone/something a nazi, or implying that. I think that implication is a cornerstone to that. Merely using the word I don't think would qualify.

The third reason could be that it was the first thing to come to mind. (But I'm not the one who said it so it's all postulation.)

[Angelalex242]

Also, we never clarified if some nerdy Marvel fans could declare themselves 'clerics of Thor' and get access to divine magic, since Thor is a valid D&D deity.

And while we're at it, maybe Chris Hemsworth becomes a proxy of Thor.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineMinions.htm#proxies

In fact, let's make the whole movie cast proxies.

Anthony Hopkins as a proxy of Odin

Jamie Alexander as a proxy of Sif.

Tom Hiddleston as a proxy of Loki.

Idris Elba as a proxy of Heimdall.

Renee Ruso as a proxy of Frigga.

And so on.